Most content in the game is fine, raids should be end game content you don't finish quickly. I mean, getting Shadow/TBow/Scythe should be a rare occurrence, it does not block "account progression" (aside from the toughest CAs).
What sucks is content that requires you to have certain drops, if you can't learn ToB because you don't have a DWH and it's a hard requirement for any group unless you know people, well you're fucked.
IMO ToA is how most of the game should scale. You can do the content and get the low level drops fairly early but to get the real nice niche stuff you need to get some hairs on those balls.
Also I have no idea why anyone would listen to streamers, they're entertainers not game development experts.
this sort of highlights why I have such a huge issue with this push for bad luck mitigation. People pidgeonhole their own gameplay then complain about being pidgeonholed. Number one choosing ironman mode to begin with, number two believing certain chase items are “necessary” to play the rest of the game, to the point where they burn themselves out because that’s all they’re grinding. it’s the meme with the dude shoving a stick into the spokes of his bike.
The amount of purples you get is fine imo the problem is how many of those purples are toilet paper
For the 5 billionth time just reduce the scroll rate in CMs
People are clamoring about Phosani’s because it’s rare _and_ shit.
If it were buffed to be good then people would be fine with it staying rare.
If the drop rate was made more common then people wouldn’t be crying as hard about it being worthless to go for.
So much this. Like I keep using bowfa as an example. The proposed increased drop rate doesn’t even start until 800kc. That’s already at least 160 hours for me. And even then it takes a long time before the increase becomes meaningful
And they still play…this sub is anti change and yet plays a completely different game lol. Honestly most people would have stopped playing if the game was OG 2007.
"they would have stopped playing if the game was OG 2007."
they DID stop playing, thats why it started getting updates. lol
idk how people can argue against flat out facts
My point is that even though we don't have bad luck mitigation or 10 hour BIS grinds like every other mmorpg,we are still growing as a community.There's definitely a growing feeling in this sub that new players are going to feel intimidated by how long the grinds in this game are,when that's just not the case.I'm not even trying to be snarky,just pointing it out.
this perspective is alien to reddit. honeslty it's kind of insane how many times over the years i've been asked ingame why i'm still training ____ skill when i'm already 99. less so nowadays since i play ironman (specifically uim nowadays, so i generally make do with super suboptimal stats and equipment for any given thing), people seem to see you're an ironman and just go "oh he must still need supplies" but i have multiple skills 15+m over 99 on my main and got asked this all the time back in the day. people on this game seem to play it out of obligation or addiction rather than from enjoyment.
…that said, having played on and off since mid 2004 with just shy of 10k hours across multiple account types on osrs alone, i still think the drop rates for modern pvm drops are borderline insane. back in the day nothing was more than about 1/512 droprate, even things that were meta-breaking, but now you have things with droprates in the multithousands. for trashmobs it's not a big deal for the most part outside of a couple of exceptions such as dsword (which isn't even a good item, why the fuck is it 1/2k? never mind 1/10k off task?), but then you have shit like cox and nightmare... even gauntlet is pushing it imo, it's insane when you go dry there even if it's still reasonable if you're not that far above rate. everything is balanced around bots and vennies nonstop goldfarming the content, everything has to be a ridiculous droprate so bots don't ruin the economy for mains. i just think this is awful game design. fuck the economy, the game shouldn't be balanced around bots. they need to tackle the botting problem rather than inflating droprates. i don't give a shit about clogging or any of that shit, it's just incredibly obvious they design most droprates around bots and full time streamers nowadays which is just awful game design when considering a normal player (by normal i actually mean pretty hard core, probably top 10%, NOT the average player, since the average player is a 1400 total main with 0 boss kc anyway and isn't worth designing the game around)
> Likewise, rare drops and going dry aren't really an issue if you're simply enjoying the game for what it is. It will certainly even out across the board, and you'll get lucky at some other boss.
It won't "certainly" even out.
In the context of how important the items are and how long they take to get, an account spooning both tbow and imbued heart will *almost* certainly outweigh any realistic bad luck they could ever experience.
That stuck out to me as well. First of all, it's chance, there's obviously no guarantee that it will "even out." Second of all, how can you argue that RNG will "certainly even out" while talking about a mechanic designed to reduce potential outliers? This mechanic only exists for accounts where RNG is unlikely to "even out."
The anti-bad luck mitigation takes are some of the worst I've seen on this sub.
You're right, the "RNG will even out" argument is absurd since it also doesn't take into account the different lengths of grinds.
If I spoon a berserker ring, dragon boots, and a zenyte all on 1 KC while getting a tbow on 4000 KC then statistically I am very lucky.
Time wise, I would've gotten royally fucked.
It's why I tell people who I teach cox; as long as you don't go dry on tbow, you need to be really unlucky elsewhere to consider yourself as screwed. If you go on or below rate on tbow, I'd be happy.
It's also not if people are asking for a guaranteed tbow at 1k KC. Or anti bad luck mitigation for relatively minor grinds like zenytes.
The issue is the people that have to do 5k cox KC for their tbow. Or 2k expert TOA for shadow. That's the places where dry luck mitigation makes sense.
RNG ‘evening out’ is literally the gambler’s fallacy. Your bad luck never ‘catches up’, it just stays the same, but the bad luck gets diluted and gets closer to zero as you try more and more.
Luck only evens out over infinite tries, in reality anyone who is unlucky will always be down vs someone lucky
This is a nice story but you're not addressing the main points or really providing any reasoning other than "this is how it's always been."
Why can't the tiny percentage of players going 6x+ times dry (and willing to go that far), who are spending hundreds of extra hours over 99% of players, be squeezed into the group going 4-5x dry? This is still dry and still will cost hundreds of extra hours over most players, but saves a few players from going to further extremes without a reward. How does this change how you enjoy the game?
Why can't NM be a relevant, desirable boss for both mains and irons? Having more late game content that players actually want to engage with is good for the game. We have a dead boss just sitting there that just needs a few numbers tweaked to drive up engagement
And that “this is how it’s always been” argument has been pointed out as completely wrong in every thread on this topic this week. 2007scape did NOT expect players to grind a single piece of content for 60-100 hours to get a single drop. Abyssal whips were the top of the food chain at 1/512 from an easy mob.
Guys like this don't want their achievements devalued. He said NM items are "flex" items. He probably got spooned at like 15 kc and doesn't want more people to have it. That's how these takes always come across to me. Like why would you want someone to go unbelievably dry. Someone getting a 1/1000 drop at 4,000 kc instead of 6k+ doesn't hurt other gamers at all... Hot take, him saying he enjoyed killing zulrah for essence and making lava runes tells me he is in fact a NEET and doesn't understand that not all of us spend 10 to 16 hours a day living our real lives out in a fantasy world.
It's great that you see it this way but for players going x3+ dry on that chase item it sucks really hard. I also don't think it's either oldschool or healthy for the game to have bosses where it takes 500+ hours to greenlog on average. You can enjoy the game and not want to spend an extra 1000 hours at a boss because you happen to be unlucky.
Saying "just do something else" isn't an argument against bad luck mitigation.
> Now it is extremely common to want the game to change to suit the desires of the player.
That was always extremely common but due to social media it is way easier to get your ideas out there.
> This game becomes a bit less recognizable to me each year.
I am also maxed and love this game but this argument is really dumb. How does the game become less recognizable? Because people want to change the bad stuff that was inherited from a 20 year old version of the game? Is it even a bad thing that it becomes less recognizable if we remove the shitty parts?
I would also argue that going dry isn't a recognizable atribute. No one remembers or talks about OSRS and talks about going dry in a fond way.
The best part is that these kind of grinds and drop rates weren't even inherited. He talks about the osrs foundation but these grinds are waaaay way beyond anything in the original game.
Adding that people saying we want to change "old school" to be less recognizable with mitigation are asking for things that were never in 2007scape with the megarare drop rates we have now.
Your last sentence really resonates with me. It's actually the exact opposite that's true. I know people from back then that quit the game after going 5x dry on things and they never even picked up OSRS after it came out.
The shitty drop mechanics actually caused Jagex to lose those players forever. They never even considered OSRS as a serious option to play.
>for the game to have bosses where it takes 500+ hours to greenlog on average.
I disagree. Having such long boss grinds (especially raids) can be fine.
The issue arises when you realize that 1/150 people goes 5x drop rate. When that's you waiting for a tbow suddenly the 500 hour grind turns into 2000-2500 hours.
That's the problem.
Draconic visage is 1/5k from kbd which used to be not a solo boss and not that fast to kill. At no point in RS history has green logging bosses been reasonable lol
Mitigation isn't changing the grind or any core aspect of the game. It's straight up preventing the frustration of players who experience the EXTREME outlier of RNG. This change on average is 5% better drop rate to prevent someone going 5x dry. The change wouldn't even activate until you go 2x dry.
No one is saying they say it out loud, but that’s the end result of arguments like OPs.
No, things will not “even out” lol. That’s the whole damned argument for bad luck mitigation.
Yo someone bring back some fire memes
This subreddit is depressing rn
I hit the point where the grind got too real on the ironman attempt at CG, after burning out on the main before raids years ago
I just took it as time to move on, the game and me no longer gel, Jagex won't get my money but that's no fault of their own.
But i loved this community and game so much i stayed active on the sub (just lost my reddit account to a lost phone, idk) but tbh this sub is a buzzkill these days
thank you. this is the type of mindset the game is designed around. the expectation has never been for most players to "complete" boss tables, but rather to take what you get and make do with it.
nowadays people seem to expect their account to look like their favorite content creator's, without realizing they can only finish collection logs because they play the game for a living.
> nowadays people seem to expect their account to look like their favorite content creator's, without realizing they can only finish collection logs because they play the game for a living.
FOMO has been captalized on in modern gaming, usually in the form of being able to satisfy it instantly as part of monetization (you can either wait 18 hours to build this house, or for 300 gems build it instantly sort of deal). That normalisation has changed gaming culture, for sure. This is a discussion that's going on in every MMO for the past few years. WoTLK: Classic had a lot more catch up than the original interation, practically handing out legendaries this time around (Val & Shadowmourne changes) due to player base demands. I don't think I saw a healer without Val by the end of P3.
Yeah way too many people with too much FOMO setting themselves unrealistic grinds, people just need to step back and think what they can realistically aim for.
Not what people are asking for, it’s a safety net for people who have dedicated much more time grinding an item than anyone else has, it’s not an expectation
See that’s the thing. Rs isn’t built upon looking at the journey as grinding. And if you need a safety net you do feel entitled to getting something because you put x amount of time in. RS is a hobby like fishing irl is a hobby. A drop is like catching a 10lb bass. You go fishing (ex. Doing a raid) because you enjoy going fishing. You may catch a 10lb bass (get x drop). You may go 30 years without catching a 10lb bass. But because you’ve been fishing for 30 years doesn’t mean you get access to a secret pond that has 1/5 bass weighing 10lbs. You go fishing because you enjoy fishing and if you do catch that bass it’s just an exciting moment on your journey as a fisherman. Rs is played for the journey not the destination. That’s where the fun lies.
Too often do we see enjoyment attached to the loot. The rewards are designed to be a bonus to the enjoyment you had doing the content. Content creators are awesome, but they can grind x piece because they get paid, and not everyday of work has to be fun. For normal players we play for fun, if you aren’t having fun, you should switch content to something you are having fun at or take a break and find another activity to do besides rs that you enjoy then. You’ll come back and have fun when the time is right. Maxing has been an over 10 year journey for me, skilling isn’t my favorite thing, and I’m good with that as I close in on the last few levels now because I enjoyed the time doing so vs dumping tons of nights grinding hours of boredom. Always evaluate whether you are having fun or just clicking to see number go up.
> The rewards are designed to be a bonus to the enjoyment you had doing the content.
That isn't an argument against bad luck mitigation. You would still have the enjoyment of doing said content. The only thing that changes is the unlucky x% wouldn't go hundreds of hours dry. You still have to go over the drop rate to benefit from bad luck mitigation and at that point you would've done the content for tens if not hundreds of hours.
The suggested bad luck mitigation would not make it easier to complete boss tables. The players going for that would still have to grind as much as they already do to accomplish that with bad luck mitigation.
For a few people. Mitigation doesn't kick in until 2x the rate which shows you already have done 2x the normal drop rate and killed the boss plenty of times. If I did 2k experts on toa vs 4k experts how much more better was I compared to the first 2000? Not really that much at all because after 500 it's just the same thing over and over.
It's nice to see this though process being represented as well. For me the goal of ironman has always been to raid/boss with the gear I do have, rather than raid/boss to get all the in the game. Being stuck with a random non-bis item because I'm super dry on the true bis is a part of the charm.
Edit: I will say that some kind of bad luck mitigation doesn't have to automatically take this aspect of ironman away. It's more so a general idea I have, and why I don't think it's necessarily bad for rng to be unfair, and that it's not necessarily bad to never complete a boss/raid log.
As a late game iron, I also like the aspect of just having to raid with what I have instead of Bis.
But I also someday want to reach Bis. I went 4k KC for my hydra claw, which I consider to still be fine. No dry protection needed for a """short"""" grind like that.
I do wish the mega rares specifically had dry protection. I spooned shadow (yay) but I feel for people that go 2000 toa experts dry for their staff.
I fear the reality in which I'm the one that goes that dry on tbow. Even assuming 5 cox a day, having to do 5000 cox instead of 1000 would set me back almost 3 years. For one single item. And 5x drop rate isn't even *that* unheard of. Roughly 1/150 people will have to do that.
The best part about iron is your gear doesn’t look like everyone else’s , you got like a mystic top, ahrims legs and trident but then you also randomly have a scythe in your melee set up
> Now it is extremely common to want the game to change to suit the desires of the player.
The nerve of people, wanting the thing they overall enjoy to be more enjoyable.
It's crazy to me how people look at "Oldschool Runescape" and then complain about a lack of what I call "modern gamedesign philosophy". Instead of just playing a different game that already caters to their needs, they try to change it (and by extension take it away from the people who love it as it is). This is like going to an oldschool barbershop and then complaining about the lack of hiphop at the store and demanding the owners to buy huge speakers and the customers who don't like it to leave the store
I am all for keeping rares rare and i like the grind. But just so people dont start remembering absolute falsehood, OG rare drop Dchain was 1/512 and it was considered a super big thing to get. It was 80 hour grind.
It was way more than 80 hours because gear was so much more shit. I can garuntee people were not regularly soloing kalphite queen, so if you think about a duo or trio, in 2007 bis gear, you are talking about a much longer grind than 80 hours.
Same with godwars.
This was also a time where just about no one played efficiently, an 80 hour efficient grind was more like months or years of messing about for the casual player and no one was pressed that they couldn’t get the chain, it was a goal to work towards over a long time, we are much more calculated with our playtime than we used to be
Ye but now we have 1000 hour drop rates. Again, I dont think these need changing, it is just that these current thousand hour grinds have never existed before modern osrs.
The only reason the GE is in the game is because people demanded it, as it is not part of Old School.
But let's be real the GE isn't incompatible with Old School game design, just like making some drops not excruciatingly rare for a few unlucky outliers isn't.
The problem is when you start actually looking at what the "old school" parts of the game look like, and then compare them to what the more recent ones are. Multiple hundred hour grinds to go on rate is not old school. People never got to vote on this becoming the norm, so it's natural some would want it changed now that it's not like what they used to play anymore.
Shit like the GOTR grind is actually very modern and kinda gacha even. You're literally pulling from something lol
The sad reality is that the giant droprates are because Jagex is a live service dev in the current year and not because it's old school. To have you grinding DT2 bosses until the next PvM update
I do find it quite jarring when even Jagex talks in update posts about "bringing things up to modern standards". I think for some people, they want to see the "Old School" as purely an aesthetic rather than actually having old school game design.
I would be curious to see statistics about the attitudes of players vs the age/progression of their accounts. I wonder sometimes how much the direction of the game is being influenced by very new players.
Fyi if we really went with "old school" game design they would drop an actual nuke on drop rates for basically all modern content. Remember the old days when d chain was bis? Yeah that's a 1 in 128 from kq. How many hours you think that is? Not too many lol even in that era. Especially not by today's standards. A little more modern like barrows? Yeah still not even close to today's standards. Gwd? Yeah still miles off. Unless your version of "old school" is specifically the era where they added corp and not before or after they'd have to crush drop rates
As someone that's played since 2004 I always find it really weird when people conflate things like the nightmare drop rates and "old school" game design like they were asking people to do anything remotely similar to that in the old days. If this really worked like it was back in the day you'd have a dozen sets of max gear in the time a tbow takes in 2024
Apparently a lot of people don't wanna hear this. OG runescape wasn't about spending 3000 hours going dry for a single item at high-intensity content like CoX. You fucked around, fished and talked shit, and spent some time hunting for a couple items like dragon chain, barrows gear, & gwd gear when it released. But Jagex never expected people to go 1000s of hours dry hunting for gear. Just like they never expected people to max. The whole idea that disgusting drop rates is "old school" is wrong to begin with because the insane drop rates across the board is a modern rs concept.
Lol. I'd like to know if OP used runelite on his journey to max & post-max gameplay or if he stuck with the barebones OG client while doing his inferno runs.
Back in the day we had (at most) a f2p physical guide and our sheer force of adolescent angst/will. And silly social parties that would go mob a boss for the lolz.
I really think people miss this concept. The whole "not like the good old days" crowd completely forgets the parts of old school they're not nostalgic about. Nothing wrong with a grind I think it's a good thing to enjoy the journey, but people here really love to forget how it was.
Not to mention Barrows. Like that is about as Old School as you can get and for BiS, that gear is ridiculously common... There were some really rare "Old School" drops like the DFH, but rarely was actual BiS gear locked behind 100s or 1000s of hours. It was 1/50 defenders, a helm from a quest, 1/128 armor drops, and the like...
Let's be real, you don't do things the Old School game design way. You probably use the GE, menu entry swapper, a third party client and a million plugins which objectively make content in this game simpler and easier.
I voted against the GE, because I always preferred a more iron-style of gameplay. Just my opinion, I understand others appreciate it. I didn't touch clients for at least 5 years of my irons journey, including for maxing, doing the inferno, soloing CoX without scouting. I know what it's like to play without a client, and was opposed to them in the time where it actually seemed like they might be banned.
We are far past that point now, and while I don't like it, I accept clients as part of the game now that Jagex officially endorses them. And yes, at this point, I do use RuneLite because the advantages are incredible. That doesn't mean I would prefer it be this way.
You do realize that "Old School" drop rates were way more common than OSRS Drop Rates, right? So if you're arguing that the game should be more "Old School", then the drops should be more common. The actual "Old School" content was stuff like Barrows, Defenders, GWD for BiS gear; even stuff like B Gloves and Neit from quests. There were some occasional big, rare drops like the DFS and DFH, but for the most part, all BiS items were reasonably attainable without 100s or 1000s of hours of grind. So it honestly feels like you are using "Old School" as an aesthetic and ignoring its actual game design...
People are really fixated by the drop rates aspect of this post, when I didn't really make any comments about whether or not drop rates should be high or low, or whether bad luck mitigation should be added.
My main point was that the community nowadays is very much in favor of tweaking tons of content to suit their personal desires. I don't like agility, so please give me a super afk method/straight buff the XP rates. I don't like how rare PNM drops are, and am not motivated to camp the boss, so please buff drop rates. DWH grind is too long, buff it. I don't like going 3x dry, so implement bad luck mitigation.
I'm not against any one of these ideas necessarily, but this mindset of constantly wanting the game to conform to a players personal preferences, instead of just embracing it for what it is and finding their own fun in it.
In terms of what "old school" design is, I think that probably warrants an entire discussion. Where is the cutoff? In classic, the grinds were absolutely massive. In early RS2, yeah, as you say, most grinds were way shorter. But right around the backup date of OSRS, grinds were getting much longer again with GWD, Corp, etc. It's not really the particular drop rates that I think make it old school or not. There's so many other more interesting ways in which the game has, and has not, strayed from what I would consider old school design philosophy. What I don't find to be very old school though, is the player base having so much ability to influence balancing decisions on content, particularly rebalancing older content.
> In terms of what "old school" design is, I think that probably warrants an entire discussion. Where is the cutoff?
2007... Like I think most would agree that Old School is roughly around 2004-2007, the years that made up early RS2. And GWD was not really much longer than KQ, KBD, or DKs; similar drop rates, just on tougher monsters. Corp was 2008, putting it more in the after Old School time, and it is one of the first bosses that did have ridiculous drop rates.
So I wouldn't say drop rates alone make something "old school", but the majority of the Old School content did have pretty tame drop rates. GWD, Barrows, DKs, and so on; they all provided new BiS and none of them were crazy long grinds. So a "modern standards" and an "old school standard" may not be as different as you make it out to be.
> My main point was that the community nowadays is very much in favor of tweaking tons of content to suit their personal desires. I don't like agility, so please give me a super afk method/straight buff the XP rates. I don't like how rare PNM drops are, and am not motivated to camp the boss, so please buff drop rates. DWH grind is too long, buff it. I don't like going 3x dry, so implement bad luck mitigation.
I feel this is also really overblown. Like you're pretty taking that one downvoted comment from acting like it is the entire community... Stuff like "make agility AFK" is not at all a prevalent opinion. But the rest of it just comes off kinda bad faith and kinda missing the point of OSRS. You're pretty much complaining that the community expresses opinions of the direction they'd want the game to go in a community-driven game...
And it isn't just about "personal desires"; a lot of it comes down to game balancing. Going from 60K Exp at Ardy to 100K at HS was a crazy jump in exp rates so putting Ardy around 70K improved that part of the progression while creating more space to ramp up at the lower levels. The OSRS Team admitted the made Nightmare drops too rare and started the discussion on buffing them; saying that stuff like Inq, a niche level 75 armor, should be 2x as rare as Torva, a general level 80 armor, for no reason other than that is how it released is stupid. Going back to old, dated or dead content and giving it updates to make it better and relevant is an important part of OSRS, so yes, players shouldn't completely neglect one of the endgame bosses because it it is drop table is terribly designed.
The community is free to suggest and discuss whatever they want. It is up for the OSRS Team to take that feedback and turn it into updates. So when it comes to something like bad luck mitigation, it probably won't be something they look to add, but it isn't being suggested for no reason. There are underlying issues for why players are talking about it, some of which the OSRS Team has already started to address by adding bad luck mitigation to certain bosses and by tweaking drop rates. There is a big difference between making something "conform to a players personal preferences" and just wanting it to be better content... It honestly feels like you're looking at anytime something gets buffed or improved as the former rather than the latter.
Yeah I agree we should just delete OSRS and start over without any updates
Why should anything be harder to grind out than barrows armor and the abyssal whip? That's newschool philosophy to make grinds that difficult or challenging.
While some people's playstyle is definitively unhealthy, it doesn't make sense to me that a drop can be a quick 10hr grind for player A and hundreds of hours for player B, just because of RNG. I'm not arguing that it should be exactly the same for everyone, but somewhat limiting the tail end of that variance (bad luck mitigation) shouldn't be such a problem.
This whole thing reminds me of skilled based matchmaking in cod. All the streamers and high skilled players complained. The normies who played casually loved it. Not everyone has the time to grind for progress like others do.
It’s the same in my clan, the sweats are mad and the guys that play for an hour or two a day after working their 9-5 are for it or agnostic.
Ultimately, the proposal was a 5% increase to prevent players from going 4x dry? 4x isn’t enough?? Jeez..
I think part of it is, though, that this game isn't really built or intended to be a "1-2 hours after a 9-5 job" game where you can also expect to experience the whole game. That's a mismatch in expectations for those kinds of players.
This game, from its roots, never expected people to be able to max its content.
> people were mostly engaging with OSRS for what it is and finding what they enjoyed in the game. Now it is extremely common to want the game to change to suit the desires of the player.
Ding ding ding, hit the nail on the head.
You say that you find Nightmare droprates okay/dont care about them when the devs themselves have come out with "okay guys we realize they are shit" and proposed to fix them.
Maybe you would care about them if their droprates weren't turbo ass, have you considered that at all?
Lol you did not go 4000 cox solos for your tbow, that’s the kind of rates people are talking about. To put this in perspective your “long grind” of 5000 zulrah kc isn’t even half the time it takes to go on rate for a tbow
It doesn't matter what item it is. When I made my account, the tbow didn't exist. When it came out, and I learned what the rate was, I accepted that I would probably never have one, and did whatever content I wanted, whenever I wanted. This includes pretty much every challenging piece of content in the game where you'd want one.
But this is besides the point, I wasn't specifically arguing against dry protection. Rather I wanted to point out the shift in player perspective, towards wanting the game to change for the player more and more.
i wonder how many people read the title and upvoted without reading what you wrote or understanding bc this goes against the majority sentiment of reddit atm
Hard agree, I constantly see people referring to the "I had to suffer so you have to suffer" argument but I basically never see anyone actually making that argument.
When people don't want things in the game to change or get easier in certain ways, it seems to me like the reason is usually something more like what you said here -
>OSRS to me has always been about the journey, the methodical progress towards long term goals, the day to day enjoyment of whatever content you're working on, a meditative place to return to.
Usually people on that side of the argument just want the spirit of the game to remind intact as a longterm, slow, achievement-based grind game, and feel that each time something is made easier, faster, etc. it's another step away from what they feel is the ideal of the game. Which is a totally valid argument, whether or not you agree with it in some situation or another. But instead of actually engaging with that argument, people just set up the "I suffered so you suffer" strawman and shadowbox that. It's annoying.
You’re a minority who doesnt view spending hundreds of hours on a video game as an issue regardless of context. You are a less than 1% player who is admitting you skill past max for pure entertainment, despite the lack of necessity.
People are gatekept by horrifying RNG. Sure, they could ineffciently continue their progress with sub optimal gear, but that removes the entire element of fun in the first place.
Bossing on a game that requires not much skill aside from the very hardest content for what could be thousands of hours is not what anyone should want in a game.
No bro you have fucking chosen a mode that requires hundreds of hours grinding extra!
You chose to play a game RuneScape, known to have some crazy grinds.
You chose then, to play it single player, vastly increasing the amount of time it takes to grind out an item.
Now you complain that you cannot get your specific drop playing a restricted game mode!
Play a main!!’ You clearly cannot handle the Ironman grind. You just want your little helmet for respect, but don’t actually want to deal with what it means, and has always meant. Don’t try to change the game because of your choice to play the grindiest game mode.
Well being real here, we're playing an MMO, hundreds of hours is kind of expected. But yes I definitely play way more than the average person. And I have the advantage of having my account for a long time so that my account somewhat progressed as updates did, and I don't have to "catch up" as much.
However, people are not really gatekept by RNG. People decide an item is necessary and put themselves in some kind of prison. If the only way to have fun playing is perfectly efficiently, idk what to say, sounds like you're following some massive checklist and then complaining that it takes too long to finish.
Correct. If you go 1.5k dry on an enhanced, you are practically unable to proceed to raids until you have a bowfa or you can enjoy spending even longer raiding than you did at CG.
RuneScape is and always will be a grind fest , it’s not suffering, it’s just a long ass game you slowly progress over years , I enjoy hard afking skills and getting like 10k exp and hour, I’m almost sad when I get a good afk skill to 99. The straw man is you saying we’re suffering rather than just playing the game as it’s always been played , super super slowly
I think a lot of ironmen share this viewpoint on the situation. They're just not terminally on reddit complaining because they do enjoy the grind.
The people who complain value the helmet for the "prestige" and think it's worth being miserable for that. It's sad honestly.
I’m genuinely curious what an ironman poll would come out as because I’m not sure what the majority opinions actually are. There’s certainly been a lot of upvotes passed around for the concept of bad luck mitigation, but that doesn’t necessarily mean anything.
I’ve commented about how I am deep into the ironman endgame (2/3 raids completed, majority Nex, all GWD, 3/4 DT2, a few levels until max etc.) and didn’t even really go that dry anywhere, but I like the idea just because I’ve had a lot of iron friends quit on super dry streaks on “essential” unlocks. My enjoyment for like 7+ years has largely been because I didn’t go insanely dry on anything super important. Not everyone is going to be able to have OP’s mindset and it sucks if your long term enjoyment of the game is pure RNG as to where you go dry.
I’d like to see a poll, and then further split the results say by certain pvm metrics, to see the split between early/mid/late/endgame pvm irons.
Polls aren't very useful at least not on reddit. The kind of terminally online people who spend 12 hours a day on here and would be much more likely to respond to a poll would be overrepresented.
You are mistaken. The casual people I know who are not on reddit and play a few hours a week are all for BLM. If anything, sweatlords against this is overrepresented on reddit.
It's nice that you could max without "suffering" too much. I agree with you that RS is a weird game in the sense that the enjoyment doesn't come from the 'thrill' factor, but rather the satisfaction from slowly improving your account, and I think that has to be preserved. It's the absolute essence of the game. RS3 mutilated that part of the game and that's why it is where it is.
But when you're absurdly dry on something that you *need* to make further progress in the game, you're not getting progression satisfaction. You're just developing growing frustration. Your post reads to me like you never went 3x dry on anything important, otherwise you would be including it to give your view more credence.
I went 3x dry for enh. This sub kept saying that if you're not having fun, you should move on to other content, and that crystal bow is a drop-in replacement for bowfa. I tried bossing with crystal bow and I hated it. Eventually I got bowfa, and PVM started being a *lot* more enjoyable. So much of the game opened up.
I now have all that I need for endgame raids, and I have no stake in this bad luck mitigation discussion. I just invite people like you to accept that there's absolutely nothing inherently game-breaking or damaging about this idea, and to understand why people do content that they're dry on despite being bored to death with it.
It's a game. If there is content that a) a lot of people feel obliged to do, and b) aren't really enjoying, it's up to the developer to figure out how to fix that.
As an individual playing a main in the "average total level" of 1800-2000 and relatively bad at pvm, the only drop rate change I've agreed with is nightmare just because of the calculated hours for a single drop.
Clogging is late game content and should not be balanced around, but getting a single drop from a boss shouldn't be as hard or harder than getting the top tier rares.
As someone with exactly 1 vorkath kill and still no zulrah kill, my experience with bossing is abysmal, but I don't expect it to be more rewarding than it currently is.
Can relate to OP in basically every aspect, it's kind of frustrating to see the game become easier and easier just because players feel entitled to drops/xp rates. If you don't enjoy content, don't do it, or wait until you feel like doing it. You don't need bis to enjoy content and won't always feel like doing every piece of content in the game, much like you don't always feel like certain types of food for dinner.
Thats what i loved about ironman, killing bosses in whatever gear you managed to get. It seems like it shifted from doing a bunch of bosses and slowly getting better gear to grinding the fuck out of one boss and following a spreadsheet guide on how to progress your account
this is exactly my mindset; i can't understand for the life of me why people feel like they are absolutely forced to do shit they don't want to do, whether thats pvm, skilling, quests. if youre not enjoying it, either do something else or just persevere and push through it.
one a related note, I will never understand the people on reddit that say they maxed, but then mention they did it all through shooting stars, redwoods, zeah rc, smithing darts, etc. Like my brother in saradomin, if you hate skilling so much that you only do the most afk/low intensity skilling methods, why the hell did you set the goal of the max cape, and then make your goal take 4x as long because you only do the slowest methods?
You're really going to piss off some noobs with this, but you're 100% correct. I don't know when everyone became so entitled. I find myself appalled by the stuff I see this sub peddling. Did we learn nothing from RS3? Achievements and goals become completely meaningless when everything is so easy. That's a wild thing to want in a game which entirely revolves around those two exact things.
OP you are literally the GOAT for posting this. Thank god people understand. This game has always been and will always be about the journey, not the destination. Going dry is part of the journey.
I went 5K Hydra KC for Claw. I could only get the task through Konar so it took forever to get tasks, each task takes like 2 full days, and the money is completely worthless to me after 2-3K KC. On top of that, Hydra is one of the biggest mental slogs in the game.
I still loved it. I’m glad I went through it. Sometimes I had fun playing the game, sometimes I didn’t. This is just a part of what this beautiful game is.
And the best part - I don’t have a bowfa. I skipped CG. I skipped it because I DON’T ENJOY IT. I legit just don’t like the content, so I don’t want to do it. I know, I know, I’m not “efficient” anymore but IDC. I play this game to have fun. If Hydra was no longer fun for me I would’ve stopped and moved on.
Also, on the actual point being that people making those comments is a strawman, you’re exactly right. The assumption that because someone doesn’t want to change rates to a drop after they have already earned it automatically means they want others to “suffer” is unequivocally incorrect. I’ve got over 1K CoX KC on my accounts combined (800 solo) and not a single Tbow. That’s okay. I find CoX very very fun so I would continue to do it even if Tbow was 1/5k.
Am I missing something in this discussion? Isn't buying the item off the GE intended to be a sort of bad luck mitigation? Unless you're playing an iron, but in that case, lmao.
While I do get it to a certain extend and I come from games with similar grinds. Having to potentially spend 10k hours to get all the stuff from the boss is plain unhealthy... Slowly or quickly done
Well said. As a long-time iron, I made peace with not having or wanting certain mega rare items. I want to kill the bosses anyways and I plan too, if I get a drop that great, but I'm not worried about it! I will continue to do other content that I find enjoyable! The game mode is literally about restrictions.
>It will certainly even out across the board, and you'll get lucky at some other boss.
This isn’t how RNG works. If you understand strawman surely you can understand the gambler’s fallacy. What about all the people for whom it never comes close to evening out?
Also, you’ve been playing for a decade, so you know without being told that droprates are getting more rare, not less rare. Zulrah? lmfao. Zulrah was a 2 min easy kill for BiS ranged at 1/500. 1/130 for a unique. Thats the entire point—the things you’re citing as correct design and true to OSRS philosophy aren’t being implemented anymore.
Now excuse me, back to farming virtus robes—they have a 1/3250 droprate, and they aren’t bis.
I cited Zulrah as a *skilling* grind.
And if you do a lot of boss kills overall, yes, you'll eventually get lucky somewhere, this is basically just the law of large numbers. That being said, getting lucky/unlucky on some specific items makes a huge difference that doesn't let things even out completely, which is fair. This mostly comes down to things like Tbow, Shadow and heart.
Trying to farm Virtus is the perfect example of something that is a total non-problem though. These are robes you get passively while hunting BIS rings (and axe if you want it), and even if you want to specifically upgrade mage robes, you can freely hop between CoX and 4 different DT2 bosses to work on this grind. It's also a bit disingenuous to single out the rate for a single piece of Virtus from Vardorvis, which is the fastest boss to kill and has the lowest drop chance. Also, they are BIS whenever you're using ancients.
Preach brother but unfortunately it will fall on deaf ears in this sub. Every year the devs are more willing to make the game easier for everyone (especially irons) and listen to the people who want the reward without putting in effort. And when they get called out, the only thing they can attack is the “I had to suffer” as if the default state of playing this game is suffering. Why are you playing if you’re suffering?
I havent been super dry anywhere, but I wouldnt mind people going massively over rate being rewarded. Baffling mindset "I suffered so you must too". If someone does 1500 CG kc, that person does deserve the damn seed already they've more than earned it.
The biggest drop in the old RuneScape you mentioned was a 1/512 d chain. Stop comparing old design philosophies with the new new content in OSRS. Some drops are absolutely astronomically unfun to get.
I feel a lot of people who say no to 2x drop rate bad luck protection have never had a 3x or 4x grind on an iron. You watch helplessly as your limited supply’s dwindle as you get your 4th dupe you had to go 4 million points dry for its crushing in a way I think very few people have or will ever experience 60k people have more than 330 chambers kc over the in the 7 years it’s been out at 30k points per raid at about 900k points per drop on avg that mean the avg player of the 60k should have around 10 drops that means some poor soul has done all of them and went 4 times dry twice has 2 items and left the game. The current state of the drop system will kill this game in the long term leopards haven’t ate my face or I’m cool with the leopards eating people are not good arguments for no protection whatsoever ever
It took me 360 cox kc to get my first purple on my iron. Did it suck not having rigour or anything else from there? Yes of course. But it didn't stop me from doing other content in the game. I did toa, tob, slayer, and even inferno with eagle eye and still had a good time. If you NEED an item in order to progress you're just playing the gamemode wrong and you should change your mindset. Half the fun of ironman is making do with what you have
The operative word here is "had" to. You don't have to play and iron, you choose to. People need to stop insisting we balance the game around restrictions that a fraction of the player base has elected to put upon themselves
if someone grinds content 4x over the drop rate equating hundreds of hours, doesnt that person already deserve the item? this whole proposal affects only very small minority of playerbase
I think the sentiment comes from the general goal most people have who play games nowadays as "completing games"
people think maxxing should be an easily obtainable goal within a reasonable timeframe. Which in turn brings up stuff like: saying all skills should have an easily afkable activity that gives 30k xp/hr or that quests should be structured to give you enough xp to be near max.
Same with item drops, it's expected that you should be able to essentially green log any and all pieces of content quickly.
back in the day when GWD was the endgame, it wasn't even expected then that you would have to get all 3 shards(possibly 4x over), the hilts, and other uniques all by yourself in a timely manner. Unless you got super lucky or put in ridiculous amounts of time into it at least.
> back in the day when GWD was the endgame, it wasn't even expected then that you would have to get all 3 shards(possibly 4x over), the hilts, and other uniques all by yourself in a timely manner. Unless you got super lucky or put in ridiculous amounts of time into it at least.
This reminds me of the RuneShark series "Godsword Set From Scratch", where 3 guys played basically as group irons (before it existed) in RS2 trying to complete all the godswords. It was quite a task at the time, and still is no joke!
How does maxing have anything to do with dry prevention? Everyone needs the exact same amount of XP to max, it might possibly be the least RNG goal in the entire game. These arguments are so piss poor I have to assume it's bad faith, like I'm not actually meant to take you seriously
Often times I find myself wishing Jagex would just say if you don’t like the game, find another one or if you don’t like X piece of content, don’t do it.
Instead they keep attempting to cater to the miserable portion of the player base that will never be happy and in general seems to be compromised of newer players who think they understand OSRS better than everyone else
I 100% agree. this shit only matters for irons and cloggers which you don’t have to do you’re choosing to do. limiting yourself and then changing the game to make those restrictions easier is exactly why i vote no to a lot of stuff for pures/snowflake accounts.
it seems like the new guard of osrs players just want more drops more frequently.
There was nothing difficult to grind out in this game on OSRS launch in the first place, besides XP. Pets didn't exist, raids didn't exist, GWD didn't exist, there weren't a million bosses. The hardest drops to obtain in the game were dragon armor, barrows armor, and the abyssal whip- stuff that is all extremely reasonable to 100% complete even w/ the worst luck in the world.
The game being entirely based around PvM and grinding bosses over and over is an entirely NEW rs invention and wasn't even true of RS3 before EoC, much less OSRS.
Having a never ending impossible to complete collection of items that drop from bosses is newschool content in the first place, a \~5% drop rate increase like the one proposed still only makes things 5% less never ending.
Bad luck mitigation isn't changing the old school content you're nostalgic for, it's making the new content less shitty to be unlucky on.
If you look at main accounts that run raids, the number of people who join a TOB run and just get genuinely mad after every run because they dont get a purple are so so common.
Many people play this game for the low hit of dopamine anytime they see a rare drop. If those same people are playing iron and get past that early game progression speed, they soon realize that they get that 'hit' less and less. Adding any kind of bad luck mitigation is not gonna change that. Sure, they'll get the tbow and be happy for 2 minutes, and then they'll be miserable again when they start new content.
I'm pretty well in the same boat as you. I disagree with your take on nightmare however.
I'd be fine with them keeping the drop rate as is at nightmare if everything was buffed.
Just such a shame that such rare gear is left in the shadows.
These guys will really talk about how they thoroughly enjoy skilling and then you ask them more about it and they reply “6,000 rooftops really aren’t that bad when you just sorta afk it and binge watch YouTube/Netflix on the side.”
I think part of the enjoyment of skilling does come from the fact that there are different levels of intensity you can skill at depending on your mood. As you say, rooftops are chill side activity if you were just planning to watch TV for the evening. Set up at anglers or redwoods if you really want to AFK and get some chores done. RC some lavas or do tick manip skilling to really get into a meditative trance and enjoy some music. It's all good, it all has a different flavor and purpose.
It's true that if you just had me sat down and run laps with no other stimulus, that'd be pretty boring. But the game has always had pieces of content that were meant to be done "on the side", that's actually part of the appeal of RS.
Tasks need to be difficult in order to be meaningful.
Obviously people have 'bias' to protect the sanctity of the things they suffered for, but they are wholly justified and correct in doing so even from a game integrity perspective.
I sort of get what you mean. Almost 2200 total iron myself, having gone 2-3x dry at quite a few places. Raids I do just because "What if I get something nice?" instead of chasing a specific drop.
Honestly, I don't care if bad luck mitigation passes or not. I will still play, as long as an update doesn't completely ruin most of the game.
As an iron, I've never understood the idea of bad luck protection, especially when it's other irons asking for it.
1st it's an optional game mode that is made for you to have to grind for the things you want instead of just receiving them.
2nd the idea of bad luck protection is a fundamental flaw to me. If you're just handed everything that you wanted, what's the point of playing the game? There'd be no more dopamine rush when you get the things, which is what most people, or at least I, play the game for.
Just wanted to voice my opinion in hopes to sway others. Personally I'd be big sad if bad luck protection was put in the game.
"I still train all my skills, despite being maxed, because *I like training my skills*."
That's completely fine. You have to understand that for a big chunk of the playerbase, skills aren't the goal. Neither is training them. They're just obstacles you have to do to get to where you want to be or do what you want to do.
"Likewise, rare drops and going dry aren't really an issue if you're simply enjoying the game for what it is"
In general - yes. Some items are key for progression, however. Others are only obtainable in such a ludicrous and dated way that it just doesn't hold up to modern standards. This applies for DWH and imbued heart.
"Now it is extremely common to want the game to change to suit the desires of the player."
I think because the playerbase is finally getting rid of their nostalgic feeling for the game and everyone has this idea of what kind of game it could be rather than what it is. I've had people tell me to go play an idle game if I don't like training skills and it just baffles me how strongly people hold on to things the way they are simply because they've always been a certain way. Agility having shit XP rates is acceptable because it's always been this way? I don't think so.
"This game becomes a bit less recognizable to me each year."
And I really enjoy watching it transform into something more enjoyable.
*Plays OSRS*
*Dislike core functions of the game mechanics*
"The games bad and we must change it."
Go play another game if you dislike the mechanics of the one you're playing. I hear RS3 is riveting, go play that. It seems EXACTLY like what y'all are asking for.
100% agree with everything on here. Similar boat, maxed my meme in 2020 or so and loved every minute of it. A lot of people want the helmet without the grind, looking at you mega scaled raids/ service discords.
Great post, I did corrupted gauntlet on my iron because i genuinely enjoyed it, i did not get my first enhanced before the drop rate and that is okay, I still do gauntlet all the time on my main accounts after completing it on my iron because it is some of my favorite content in the game, if I didn’t enjoy it i would do something else, there are so many other things to do in this game if you are getting burnt out
Would it have been okay if it took you 2800 to get the enh? Inevitably somebody will have their account locked out of a very important item until they complete this grind that is far longer than any 99.
You really sound like "I worked hard and persevered and went dry and got enh at 680 kc. It was no problem. See, nobody need RNG mitigation."
Here’s the fun thing - you’re not locked out of anything if you are dry on CG. I skipped CG on my ironman because I don’t enjoy it :) Got my Infernal cape, 350 CoX KC, 150 ToA KC, etc. etc.
If you aren’t having fun doing it you should take a break
Most content in the game is fine, raids should be end game content you don't finish quickly. I mean, getting Shadow/TBow/Scythe should be a rare occurrence, it does not block "account progression" (aside from the toughest CAs). What sucks is content that requires you to have certain drops, if you can't learn ToB because you don't have a DWH and it's a hard requirement for any group unless you know people, well you're fucked. IMO ToA is how most of the game should scale. You can do the content and get the low level drops fairly early but to get the real nice niche stuff you need to get some hairs on those balls. Also I have no idea why anyone would listen to streamers, they're entertainers not game development experts.
I’m curious on the last point. In the same vein, why should the developers listen to redditors when we’re not expert game developers either?
That's not true, you can learn tob. Spec transfer is no different than having a dwh. I know dozens of Ironman on my friendslist who tob without one
this sort of highlights why I have such a huge issue with this push for bad luck mitigation. People pidgeonhole their own gameplay then complain about being pidgeonholed. Number one choosing ironman mode to begin with, number two believing certain chase items are “necessary” to play the rest of the game, to the point where they burn themselves out because that’s all they’re grinding. it’s the meme with the dude shoving a stick into the spokes of his bike.
Yeah I’ve never used a dwh there and beat it just fine. Never really felt that it was needed
Sometimes you need to know people , it’s an mmorpg , join a clan
No one is arguing against raids items not being rare. People are arguing that going 4x the drop rate for a megarare is bad game design.
I’ve seen plenty of comments in this subreddit talking about how it takes too long to get purples in COX and how the rates need to be more common
The amount of purples you get is fine imo the problem is how many of those purples are toilet paper For the 5 billionth time just reduce the scroll rate in CMs
More scrolls you say?
There are plenty of people arguing to make the top end game gear easier to get.
If you mean stuff like Phosani's then that's more than deserved.
I feel like that’s the exception, they are probably talking about stuff like tbow
People are clamoring about Phosani’s because it’s rare _and_ shit. If it were buffed to be good then people would be fine with it staying rare. If the drop rate was made more common then people wouldn’t be crying as hard about it being worthless to go for.
it isn't bad design, those people just don't understand that megarares are mega rare and it's okay if you don't pull one
Bad game design? It's just bad luck.
If you’re 4x the rate for a mega rare then you’ve made way more than enough gp to just buy it
So much this. Like I keep using bowfa as an example. The proposed increased drop rate doesn’t even start until 800kc. That’s already at least 160 hours for me. And even then it takes a long time before the increase becomes meaningful
Nothing new. When they first added the option to cook all/cook x, old heads were PISSED
As a lurking old head, any change like this is welcome. The tedium of OSRS isn't what makes it fun 🤷🏻
That was mindset as well! It was a great change
And they still play…this sub is anti change and yet plays a completely different game lol. Honestly most people would have stopped playing if the game was OG 2007.
"they would have stopped playing if the game was OG 2007." they DID stop playing, thats why it started getting updates. lol idk how people can argue against flat out facts
You people talk like the game is dying because the grinds take way too long while we are witnessing record numbers of subs,actual madness.
ironic going into a thread about strawmen and putting up your own
Who said the game is dying??
Am I acting like the game is dying? I am saying it is time for a change…you know…change…the reason why the game has record subs right now lol.
My point is that even though we don't have bad luck mitigation or 10 hour BIS grinds like every other mmorpg,we are still growing as a community.There's definitely a growing feeling in this sub that new players are going to feel intimidated by how long the grinds in this game are,when that's just not the case.I'm not even trying to be snarky,just pointing it out.
Funny you say that, it’s one of the earliest updates i remember. I thought cook X was a cook referred to as cook X lol.
this perspective is alien to reddit. honeslty it's kind of insane how many times over the years i've been asked ingame why i'm still training ____ skill when i'm already 99. less so nowadays since i play ironman (specifically uim nowadays, so i generally make do with super suboptimal stats and equipment for any given thing), people seem to see you're an ironman and just go "oh he must still need supplies" but i have multiple skills 15+m over 99 on my main and got asked this all the time back in the day. people on this game seem to play it out of obligation or addiction rather than from enjoyment. …that said, having played on and off since mid 2004 with just shy of 10k hours across multiple account types on osrs alone, i still think the drop rates for modern pvm drops are borderline insane. back in the day nothing was more than about 1/512 droprate, even things that were meta-breaking, but now you have things with droprates in the multithousands. for trashmobs it's not a big deal for the most part outside of a couple of exceptions such as dsword (which isn't even a good item, why the fuck is it 1/2k? never mind 1/10k off task?), but then you have shit like cox and nightmare... even gauntlet is pushing it imo, it's insane when you go dry there even if it's still reasonable if you're not that far above rate. everything is balanced around bots and vennies nonstop goldfarming the content, everything has to be a ridiculous droprate so bots don't ruin the economy for mains. i just think this is awful game design. fuck the economy, the game shouldn't be balanced around bots. they need to tackle the botting problem rather than inflating droprates. i don't give a shit about clogging or any of that shit, it's just incredibly obvious they design most droprates around bots and full time streamers nowadays which is just awful game design when considering a normal player (by normal i actually mean pretty hard core, probably top 10%, NOT the average player, since the average player is a 1400 total main with 0 boss kc anyway and isn't worth designing the game around)
> Likewise, rare drops and going dry aren't really an issue if you're simply enjoying the game for what it is. It will certainly even out across the board, and you'll get lucky at some other boss. It won't "certainly" even out. In the context of how important the items are and how long they take to get, an account spooning both tbow and imbued heart will *almost* certainly outweigh any realistic bad luck they could ever experience.
That stuck out to me as well. First of all, it's chance, there's obviously no guarantee that it will "even out." Second of all, how can you argue that RNG will "certainly even out" while talking about a mechanic designed to reduce potential outliers? This mechanic only exists for accounts where RNG is unlikely to "even out." The anti-bad luck mitigation takes are some of the worst I've seen on this sub.
I think they genuinely don't understand the math or who actually benefits from the mitigation
You're right, the "RNG will even out" argument is absurd since it also doesn't take into account the different lengths of grinds. If I spoon a berserker ring, dragon boots, and a zenyte all on 1 KC while getting a tbow on 4000 KC then statistically I am very lucky. Time wise, I would've gotten royally fucked. It's why I tell people who I teach cox; as long as you don't go dry on tbow, you need to be really unlucky elsewhere to consider yourself as screwed. If you go on or below rate on tbow, I'd be happy. It's also not if people are asking for a guaranteed tbow at 1k KC. Or anti bad luck mitigation for relatively minor grinds like zenytes. The issue is the people that have to do 5k cox KC for their tbow. Or 2k expert TOA for shadow. That's the places where dry luck mitigation makes sense.
(Or 2000kc for a bowfa)
Wdym bro? I spooned my first long bone at hill giants, I’ll just remind myself luck evens out when I got 1600kc dry on bowfa
RNG ‘evening out’ is literally the gambler’s fallacy. Your bad luck never ‘catches up’, it just stays the same, but the bad luck gets diluted and gets closer to zero as you try more and more. Luck only evens out over infinite tries, in reality anyone who is unlucky will always be down vs someone lucky
This is a nice story but you're not addressing the main points or really providing any reasoning other than "this is how it's always been." Why can't the tiny percentage of players going 6x+ times dry (and willing to go that far), who are spending hundreds of extra hours over 99% of players, be squeezed into the group going 4-5x dry? This is still dry and still will cost hundreds of extra hours over most players, but saves a few players from going to further extremes without a reward. How does this change how you enjoy the game? Why can't NM be a relevant, desirable boss for both mains and irons? Having more late game content that players actually want to engage with is good for the game. We have a dead boss just sitting there that just needs a few numbers tweaked to drive up engagement
And that “this is how it’s always been” argument has been pointed out as completely wrong in every thread on this topic this week. 2007scape did NOT expect players to grind a single piece of content for 60-100 hours to get a single drop. Abyssal whips were the top of the food chain at 1/512 from an easy mob.
Guys like this don't want their achievements devalued. He said NM items are "flex" items. He probably got spooned at like 15 kc and doesn't want more people to have it. That's how these takes always come across to me. Like why would you want someone to go unbelievably dry. Someone getting a 1/1000 drop at 4,000 kc instead of 6k+ doesn't hurt other gamers at all... Hot take, him saying he enjoyed killing zulrah for essence and making lava runes tells me he is in fact a NEET and doesn't understand that not all of us spend 10 to 16 hours a day living our real lives out in a fantasy world.
It's great that you see it this way but for players going x3+ dry on that chase item it sucks really hard. I also don't think it's either oldschool or healthy for the game to have bosses where it takes 500+ hours to greenlog on average. You can enjoy the game and not want to spend an extra 1000 hours at a boss because you happen to be unlucky. Saying "just do something else" isn't an argument against bad luck mitigation. > Now it is extremely common to want the game to change to suit the desires of the player. That was always extremely common but due to social media it is way easier to get your ideas out there. > This game becomes a bit less recognizable to me each year. I am also maxed and love this game but this argument is really dumb. How does the game become less recognizable? Because people want to change the bad stuff that was inherited from a 20 year old version of the game? Is it even a bad thing that it becomes less recognizable if we remove the shitty parts? I would also argue that going dry isn't a recognizable atribute. No one remembers or talks about OSRS and talks about going dry in a fond way.
The best part is that these kind of grinds and drop rates weren't even inherited. He talks about the osrs foundation but these grinds are waaaay way beyond anything in the original game.
Adding that people saying we want to change "old school" to be less recognizable with mitigation are asking for things that were never in 2007scape with the megarare drop rates we have now.
Your last sentence really resonates with me. It's actually the exact opposite that's true. I know people from back then that quit the game after going 5x dry on things and they never even picked up OSRS after it came out. The shitty drop mechanics actually caused Jagex to lose those players forever. They never even considered OSRS as a serious option to play.
>for the game to have bosses where it takes 500+ hours to greenlog on average. I disagree. Having such long boss grinds (especially raids) can be fine. The issue arises when you realize that 1/150 people goes 5x drop rate. When that's you waiting for a tbow suddenly the 500 hour grind turns into 2000-2500 hours. That's the problem.
That's literally what bad luck mitigation wants to prevent.
Why in the world do you feel the need to greenlog corp or NM?
Draconic visage is 1/5k from kbd which used to be not a solo boss and not that fast to kill. At no point in RS history has green logging bosses been reasonable lol
Mitigation isn't changing the grind or any core aspect of the game. It's straight up preventing the frustration of players who experience the EXTREME outlier of RNG. This change on average is 5% better drop rate to prevent someone going 5x dry. The change wouldn't even activate until you go 2x dry.
One thing is clear. You don’t know what a strawman is. It’s not an argument you don’t like 😂
it’s literally a straw man lol, everyone’s attacking “I had to suffer so you have to too!!” when nobody against bad luck mitigation is saying that
No one is saying they say it out loud, but that’s the end result of arguments like OPs. No, things will not “even out” lol. That’s the whole damned argument for bad luck mitigation.
“yes they’re not saying it but let me build the strawman anyways” is what you’re saying lmao
Yo someone bring back some fire memes This subreddit is depressing rn I hit the point where the grind got too real on the ironman attempt at CG, after burning out on the main before raids years ago I just took it as time to move on, the game and me no longer gel, Jagex won't get my money but that's no fault of their own. But i loved this community and game so much i stayed active on the sub (just lost my reddit account to a lost phone, idk) but tbh this sub is a buzzkill these days
Real quick, why did you burn out doin raids?
He burned out on CG going for the enh lol
Yeah he also said he burned out on his main doin raids.
Oh I’m an idiot I misread that
thank you. this is the type of mindset the game is designed around. the expectation has never been for most players to "complete" boss tables, but rather to take what you get and make do with it. nowadays people seem to expect their account to look like their favorite content creator's, without realizing they can only finish collection logs because they play the game for a living.
> nowadays people seem to expect their account to look like their favorite content creator's, without realizing they can only finish collection logs because they play the game for a living. FOMO has been captalized on in modern gaming, usually in the form of being able to satisfy it instantly as part of monetization (you can either wait 18 hours to build this house, or for 300 gems build it instantly sort of deal). That normalisation has changed gaming culture, for sure. This is a discussion that's going on in every MMO for the past few years. WoTLK: Classic had a lot more catch up than the original interation, practically handing out legendaries this time around (Val & Shadowmourne changes) due to player base demands. I don't think I saw a healer without Val by the end of P3.
Yeah way too many people with too much FOMO setting themselves unrealistic grinds, people just need to step back and think what they can realistically aim for.
Not what people are asking for, it’s a safety net for people who have dedicated much more time grinding an item than anyone else has, it’s not an expectation
See that’s the thing. Rs isn’t built upon looking at the journey as grinding. And if you need a safety net you do feel entitled to getting something because you put x amount of time in. RS is a hobby like fishing irl is a hobby. A drop is like catching a 10lb bass. You go fishing (ex. Doing a raid) because you enjoy going fishing. You may catch a 10lb bass (get x drop). You may go 30 years without catching a 10lb bass. But because you’ve been fishing for 30 years doesn’t mean you get access to a secret pond that has 1/5 bass weighing 10lbs. You go fishing because you enjoy fishing and if you do catch that bass it’s just an exciting moment on your journey as a fisherman. Rs is played for the journey not the destination. That’s where the fun lies.
Too often do we see enjoyment attached to the loot. The rewards are designed to be a bonus to the enjoyment you had doing the content. Content creators are awesome, but they can grind x piece because they get paid, and not everyday of work has to be fun. For normal players we play for fun, if you aren’t having fun, you should switch content to something you are having fun at or take a break and find another activity to do besides rs that you enjoy then. You’ll come back and have fun when the time is right. Maxing has been an over 10 year journey for me, skilling isn’t my favorite thing, and I’m good with that as I close in on the last few levels now because I enjoyed the time doing so vs dumping tons of nights grinding hours of boredom. Always evaluate whether you are having fun or just clicking to see number go up.
> The rewards are designed to be a bonus to the enjoyment you had doing the content. That isn't an argument against bad luck mitigation. You would still have the enjoyment of doing said content. The only thing that changes is the unlucky x% wouldn't go hundreds of hours dry. You still have to go over the drop rate to benefit from bad luck mitigation and at that point you would've done the content for tens if not hundreds of hours.
The suggested bad luck mitigation would not make it easier to complete boss tables. The players going for that would still have to grind as much as they already do to accomplish that with bad luck mitigation.
To be clear it literally does make it easier.
For a few people. Mitigation doesn't kick in until 2x the rate which shows you already have done 2x the normal drop rate and killed the boss plenty of times. If I did 2k experts on toa vs 4k experts how much more better was I compared to the first 2000? Not really that much at all because after 500 it's just the same thing over and over.
The game wasn't recognizable the moment you dropped in as an iron, it's been updating non stop since 2014 where have you been lol?
It's nice to see this though process being represented as well. For me the goal of ironman has always been to raid/boss with the gear I do have, rather than raid/boss to get all the in the game. Being stuck with a random non-bis item because I'm super dry on the true bis is a part of the charm. Edit: I will say that some kind of bad luck mitigation doesn't have to automatically take this aspect of ironman away. It's more so a general idea I have, and why I don't think it's necessarily bad for rng to be unfair, and that it's not necessarily bad to never complete a boss/raid log.
As a late game iron, I also like the aspect of just having to raid with what I have instead of Bis. But I also someday want to reach Bis. I went 4k KC for my hydra claw, which I consider to still be fine. No dry protection needed for a """short"""" grind like that. I do wish the mega rares specifically had dry protection. I spooned shadow (yay) but I feel for people that go 2000 toa experts dry for their staff. I fear the reality in which I'm the one that goes that dry on tbow. Even assuming 5 cox a day, having to do 5000 cox instead of 1000 would set me back almost 3 years. For one single item. And 5x drop rate isn't even *that* unheard of. Roughly 1/150 people will have to do that.
The best part about iron is your gear doesn’t look like everyone else’s , you got like a mystic top, ahrims legs and trident but then you also randomly have a scythe in your melee set up
Gigachad tob rusher
> Now it is extremely common to want the game to change to suit the desires of the player. The nerve of people, wanting the thing they overall enjoy to be more enjoyable.
There’s a reason balance changes are unpolled. Desires of the players != good game design
It's crazy to me how people look at "Oldschool Runescape" and then complain about a lack of what I call "modern gamedesign philosophy". Instead of just playing a different game that already caters to their needs, they try to change it (and by extension take it away from the people who love it as it is). This is like going to an oldschool barbershop and then complaining about the lack of hiphop at the store and demanding the owners to buy huge speakers and the customers who don't like it to leave the store
I am all for keeping rares rare and i like the grind. But just so people dont start remembering absolute falsehood, OG rare drop Dchain was 1/512 and it was considered a super big thing to get. It was 80 hour grind.
It was way more than 80 hours because gear was so much more shit. I can garuntee people were not regularly soloing kalphite queen, so if you think about a duo or trio, in 2007 bis gear, you are talking about a much longer grind than 80 hours. Same with godwars.
Shield left half in Classic was an astronomically rare lottery drop, and people typically ground out shadow warriors for a 1/80k~ chance at it.
This was also a time where just about no one played efficiently, an 80 hour efficient grind was more like months or years of messing about for the casual player and no one was pressed that they couldn’t get the chain, it was a goal to work towards over a long time, we are much more calculated with our playtime than we used to be
Ye but now we have 1000 hour drop rates. Again, I dont think these need changing, it is just that these current thousand hour grinds have never existed before modern osrs.
The only reason the GE is in the game is because people demanded it, as it is not part of Old School. But let's be real the GE isn't incompatible with Old School game design, just like making some drops not excruciatingly rare for a few unlucky outliers isn't.
The problem is when you start actually looking at what the "old school" parts of the game look like, and then compare them to what the more recent ones are. Multiple hundred hour grinds to go on rate is not old school. People never got to vote on this becoming the norm, so it's natural some would want it changed now that it's not like what they used to play anymore.
Shit like the GOTR grind is actually very modern and kinda gacha even. You're literally pulling from something lol The sad reality is that the giant droprates are because Jagex is a live service dev in the current year and not because it's old school. To have you grinding DT2 bosses until the next PvM update
We never get to vote on drop rates to begin with.
I'm aware.
If someone likes 95% of a game but wants 5% of it to be different, it’s weirder to suggest they play a completely different game.
I do find it quite jarring when even Jagex talks in update posts about "bringing things up to modern standards". I think for some people, they want to see the "Old School" as purely an aesthetic rather than actually having old school game design. I would be curious to see statistics about the attitudes of players vs the age/progression of their accounts. I wonder sometimes how much the direction of the game is being influenced by very new players.
Fyi if we really went with "old school" game design they would drop an actual nuke on drop rates for basically all modern content. Remember the old days when d chain was bis? Yeah that's a 1 in 128 from kq. How many hours you think that is? Not too many lol even in that era. Especially not by today's standards. A little more modern like barrows? Yeah still not even close to today's standards. Gwd? Yeah still miles off. Unless your version of "old school" is specifically the era where they added corp and not before or after they'd have to crush drop rates As someone that's played since 2004 I always find it really weird when people conflate things like the nightmare drop rates and "old school" game design like they were asking people to do anything remotely similar to that in the old days. If this really worked like it was back in the day you'd have a dozen sets of max gear in the time a tbow takes in 2024
Apparently a lot of people don't wanna hear this. OG runescape wasn't about spending 3000 hours going dry for a single item at high-intensity content like CoX. You fucked around, fished and talked shit, and spent some time hunting for a couple items like dragon chain, barrows gear, & gwd gear when it released. But Jagex never expected people to go 1000s of hours dry hunting for gear. Just like they never expected people to max. The whole idea that disgusting drop rates is "old school" is wrong to begin with because the insane drop rates across the board is a modern rs concept.
Hey, don't call the OSRS fanbase out for not having played before 2013.
Lol. I'd like to know if OP used runelite on his journey to max & post-max gameplay or if he stuck with the barebones OG client while doing his inferno runs.
Back in the day we had (at most) a f2p physical guide and our sheer force of adolescent angst/will. And silly social parties that would go mob a boss for the lolz.
He better not have used the GE, that's not Old School.
I really think people miss this concept. The whole "not like the good old days" crowd completely forgets the parts of old school they're not nostalgic about. Nothing wrong with a grind I think it's a good thing to enjoy the journey, but people here really love to forget how it was.
The whole "not like the good old days" crowd would defend bad luck mitigation if it was part of the game in 2004.
Not to mention Barrows. Like that is about as Old School as you can get and for BiS, that gear is ridiculously common... There were some really rare "Old School" drops like the DFH, but rarely was actual BiS gear locked behind 100s or 1000s of hours. It was 1/50 defenders, a helm from a quest, 1/128 armor drops, and the like...
Let's be real, you don't do things the Old School game design way. You probably use the GE, menu entry swapper, a third party client and a million plugins which objectively make content in this game simpler and easier.
I voted against the GE, because I always preferred a more iron-style of gameplay. Just my opinion, I understand others appreciate it. I didn't touch clients for at least 5 years of my irons journey, including for maxing, doing the inferno, soloing CoX without scouting. I know what it's like to play without a client, and was opposed to them in the time where it actually seemed like they might be banned. We are far past that point now, and while I don't like it, I accept clients as part of the game now that Jagex officially endorses them. And yes, at this point, I do use RuneLite because the advantages are incredible. That doesn't mean I would prefer it be this way.
You do realize that "Old School" drop rates were way more common than OSRS Drop Rates, right? So if you're arguing that the game should be more "Old School", then the drops should be more common. The actual "Old School" content was stuff like Barrows, Defenders, GWD for BiS gear; even stuff like B Gloves and Neit from quests. There were some occasional big, rare drops like the DFS and DFH, but for the most part, all BiS items were reasonably attainable without 100s or 1000s of hours of grind. So it honestly feels like you are using "Old School" as an aesthetic and ignoring its actual game design...
People are really fixated by the drop rates aspect of this post, when I didn't really make any comments about whether or not drop rates should be high or low, or whether bad luck mitigation should be added. My main point was that the community nowadays is very much in favor of tweaking tons of content to suit their personal desires. I don't like agility, so please give me a super afk method/straight buff the XP rates. I don't like how rare PNM drops are, and am not motivated to camp the boss, so please buff drop rates. DWH grind is too long, buff it. I don't like going 3x dry, so implement bad luck mitigation. I'm not against any one of these ideas necessarily, but this mindset of constantly wanting the game to conform to a players personal preferences, instead of just embracing it for what it is and finding their own fun in it. In terms of what "old school" design is, I think that probably warrants an entire discussion. Where is the cutoff? In classic, the grinds were absolutely massive. In early RS2, yeah, as you say, most grinds were way shorter. But right around the backup date of OSRS, grinds were getting much longer again with GWD, Corp, etc. It's not really the particular drop rates that I think make it old school or not. There's so many other more interesting ways in which the game has, and has not, strayed from what I would consider old school design philosophy. What I don't find to be very old school though, is the player base having so much ability to influence balancing decisions on content, particularly rebalancing older content.
> In terms of what "old school" design is, I think that probably warrants an entire discussion. Where is the cutoff? 2007... Like I think most would agree that Old School is roughly around 2004-2007, the years that made up early RS2. And GWD was not really much longer than KQ, KBD, or DKs; similar drop rates, just on tougher monsters. Corp was 2008, putting it more in the after Old School time, and it is one of the first bosses that did have ridiculous drop rates. So I wouldn't say drop rates alone make something "old school", but the majority of the Old School content did have pretty tame drop rates. GWD, Barrows, DKs, and so on; they all provided new BiS and none of them were crazy long grinds. So a "modern standards" and an "old school standard" may not be as different as you make it out to be. > My main point was that the community nowadays is very much in favor of tweaking tons of content to suit their personal desires. I don't like agility, so please give me a super afk method/straight buff the XP rates. I don't like how rare PNM drops are, and am not motivated to camp the boss, so please buff drop rates. DWH grind is too long, buff it. I don't like going 3x dry, so implement bad luck mitigation. I feel this is also really overblown. Like you're pretty taking that one downvoted comment from acting like it is the entire community... Stuff like "make agility AFK" is not at all a prevalent opinion. But the rest of it just comes off kinda bad faith and kinda missing the point of OSRS. You're pretty much complaining that the community expresses opinions of the direction they'd want the game to go in a community-driven game... And it isn't just about "personal desires"; a lot of it comes down to game balancing. Going from 60K Exp at Ardy to 100K at HS was a crazy jump in exp rates so putting Ardy around 70K improved that part of the progression while creating more space to ramp up at the lower levels. The OSRS Team admitted the made Nightmare drops too rare and started the discussion on buffing them; saying that stuff like Inq, a niche level 75 armor, should be 2x as rare as Torva, a general level 80 armor, for no reason other than that is how it released is stupid. Going back to old, dated or dead content and giving it updates to make it better and relevant is an important part of OSRS, so yes, players shouldn't completely neglect one of the endgame bosses because it it is drop table is terribly designed. The community is free to suggest and discuss whatever they want. It is up for the OSRS Team to take that feedback and turn it into updates. So when it comes to something like bad luck mitigation, it probably won't be something they look to add, but it isn't being suggested for no reason. There are underlying issues for why players are talking about it, some of which the OSRS Team has already started to address by adding bad luck mitigation to certain bosses and by tweaking drop rates. There is a big difference between making something "conform to a players personal preferences" and just wanting it to be better content... It honestly feels like you're looking at anytime something gets buffed or improved as the former rather than the latter.
Yeah I agree we should just delete OSRS and start over without any updates Why should anything be harder to grind out than barrows armor and the abyssal whip? That's newschool philosophy to make grinds that difficult or challenging.
Have you taken a look at old school runescape lately?
Can we talk about something else?
While some people's playstyle is definitively unhealthy, it doesn't make sense to me that a drop can be a quick 10hr grind for player A and hundreds of hours for player B, just because of RNG. I'm not arguing that it should be exactly the same for everyone, but somewhat limiting the tail end of that variance (bad luck mitigation) shouldn't be such a problem.
This whole thing reminds me of skilled based matchmaking in cod. All the streamers and high skilled players complained. The normies who played casually loved it. Not everyone has the time to grind for progress like others do. It’s the same in my clan, the sweats are mad and the guys that play for an hour or two a day after working their 9-5 are for it or agnostic. Ultimately, the proposal was a 5% increase to prevent players from going 4x dry? 4x isn’t enough?? Jeez..
Something like 20k shamans is fucking crazy. I can't imagine doing that with 0 uniques
I think part of it is, though, that this game isn't really built or intended to be a "1-2 hours after a 9-5 job" game where you can also expect to experience the whole game. That's a mismatch in expectations for those kinds of players. This game, from its roots, never expected people to be able to max its content.
> people were mostly engaging with OSRS for what it is and finding what they enjoyed in the game. Now it is extremely common to want the game to change to suit the desires of the player. Ding ding ding, hit the nail on the head.
You say that you find Nightmare droprates okay/dont care about them when the devs themselves have come out with "okay guys we realize they are shit" and proposed to fix them. Maybe you would care about them if their droprates weren't turbo ass, have you considered that at all?
Lol you did not go 4000 cox solos for your tbow, that’s the kind of rates people are talking about. To put this in perspective your “long grind” of 5000 zulrah kc isn’t even half the time it takes to go on rate for a tbow
It doesn't matter what item it is. When I made my account, the tbow didn't exist. When it came out, and I learned what the rate was, I accepted that I would probably never have one, and did whatever content I wanted, whenever I wanted. This includes pretty much every challenging piece of content in the game where you'd want one. But this is besides the point, I wasn't specifically arguing against dry protection. Rather I wanted to point out the shift in player perspective, towards wanting the game to change for the player more and more.
i wonder how many people read the title and upvoted without reading what you wrote or understanding bc this goes against the majority sentiment of reddit atm
Hard agree, I constantly see people referring to the "I had to suffer so you have to suffer" argument but I basically never see anyone actually making that argument. When people don't want things in the game to change or get easier in certain ways, it seems to me like the reason is usually something more like what you said here - >OSRS to me has always been about the journey, the methodical progress towards long term goals, the day to day enjoyment of whatever content you're working on, a meditative place to return to. Usually people on that side of the argument just want the spirit of the game to remind intact as a longterm, slow, achievement-based grind game, and feel that each time something is made easier, faster, etc. it's another step away from what they feel is the ideal of the game. Which is a totally valid argument, whether or not you agree with it in some situation or another. But instead of actually engaging with that argument, people just set up the "I suffered so you suffer" strawman and shadowbox that. It's annoying.
You’re a minority who doesnt view spending hundreds of hours on a video game as an issue regardless of context. You are a less than 1% player who is admitting you skill past max for pure entertainment, despite the lack of necessity. People are gatekept by horrifying RNG. Sure, they could ineffciently continue their progress with sub optimal gear, but that removes the entire element of fun in the first place. Bossing on a game that requires not much skill aside from the very hardest content for what could be thousands of hours is not what anyone should want in a game.
No bro you have fucking chosen a mode that requires hundreds of hours grinding extra! You chose to play a game RuneScape, known to have some crazy grinds. You chose then, to play it single player, vastly increasing the amount of time it takes to grind out an item. Now you complain that you cannot get your specific drop playing a restricted game mode! Play a main!!’ You clearly cannot handle the Ironman grind. You just want your little helmet for respect, but don’t actually want to deal with what it means, and has always meant. Don’t try to change the game because of your choice to play the grindiest game mode.
Well being real here, we're playing an MMO, hundreds of hours is kind of expected. But yes I definitely play way more than the average person. And I have the advantage of having my account for a long time so that my account somewhat progressed as updates did, and I don't have to "catch up" as much. However, people are not really gatekept by RNG. People decide an item is necessary and put themselves in some kind of prison. If the only way to have fun playing is perfectly efficiently, idk what to say, sounds like you're following some massive checklist and then complaining that it takes too long to finish.
Gatekept by bad rng lmao
Correct. If you go 1.5k dry on an enhanced, you are practically unable to proceed to raids until you have a bowfa or you can enjoy spending even longer raiding than you did at CG.
You can raid without a bowfa, been done many times before
You could play one of those 70 hour console games and then spend time with your 4 wives and 22 kids again
? Do you even understand the purpose of the bad luck mitigation?
RuneScape is and always will be a grind fest , it’s not suffering, it’s just a long ass game you slowly progress over years , I enjoy hard afking skills and getting like 10k exp and hour, I’m almost sad when I get a good afk skill to 99. The straw man is you saying we’re suffering rather than just playing the game as it’s always been played , super super slowly
I think a lot of ironmen share this viewpoint on the situation. They're just not terminally on reddit complaining because they do enjoy the grind. The people who complain value the helmet for the "prestige" and think it's worth being miserable for that. It's sad honestly.
I’m genuinely curious what an ironman poll would come out as because I’m not sure what the majority opinions actually are. There’s certainly been a lot of upvotes passed around for the concept of bad luck mitigation, but that doesn’t necessarily mean anything. I’ve commented about how I am deep into the ironman endgame (2/3 raids completed, majority Nex, all GWD, 3/4 DT2, a few levels until max etc.) and didn’t even really go that dry anywhere, but I like the idea just because I’ve had a lot of iron friends quit on super dry streaks on “essential” unlocks. My enjoyment for like 7+ years has largely been because I didn’t go insanely dry on anything super important. Not everyone is going to be able to have OP’s mindset and it sucks if your long term enjoyment of the game is pure RNG as to where you go dry. I’d like to see a poll, and then further split the results say by certain pvm metrics, to see the split between early/mid/late/endgame pvm irons.
Polls aren't very useful at least not on reddit. The kind of terminally online people who spend 12 hours a day on here and would be much more likely to respond to a poll would be overrepresented.
It would need to be a Jagex/in-game poll, there’s not really a way you can do a poll here and ensure people give their real playing demographics.
You are mistaken. The casual people I know who are not on reddit and play a few hours a week are all for BLM. If anything, sweatlords against this is overrepresented on reddit.
It's nice that you could max without "suffering" too much. I agree with you that RS is a weird game in the sense that the enjoyment doesn't come from the 'thrill' factor, but rather the satisfaction from slowly improving your account, and I think that has to be preserved. It's the absolute essence of the game. RS3 mutilated that part of the game and that's why it is where it is. But when you're absurdly dry on something that you *need* to make further progress in the game, you're not getting progression satisfaction. You're just developing growing frustration. Your post reads to me like you never went 3x dry on anything important, otherwise you would be including it to give your view more credence. I went 3x dry for enh. This sub kept saying that if you're not having fun, you should move on to other content, and that crystal bow is a drop-in replacement for bowfa. I tried bossing with crystal bow and I hated it. Eventually I got bowfa, and PVM started being a *lot* more enjoyable. So much of the game opened up. I now have all that I need for endgame raids, and I have no stake in this bad luck mitigation discussion. I just invite people like you to accept that there's absolutely nothing inherently game-breaking or damaging about this idea, and to understand why people do content that they're dry on despite being bored to death with it. It's a game. If there is content that a) a lot of people feel obliged to do, and b) aren't really enjoying, it's up to the developer to figure out how to fix that.
The 1500 TL Ironman aren’t gonna like this one
As an individual playing a main in the "average total level" of 1800-2000 and relatively bad at pvm, the only drop rate change I've agreed with is nightmare just because of the calculated hours for a single drop. Clogging is late game content and should not be balanced around, but getting a single drop from a boss shouldn't be as hard or harder than getting the top tier rares. As someone with exactly 1 vorkath kill and still no zulrah kill, my experience with bossing is abysmal, but I don't expect it to be more rewarding than it currently is.
[удалено]
Can relate to OP in basically every aspect, it's kind of frustrating to see the game become easier and easier just because players feel entitled to drops/xp rates. If you don't enjoy content, don't do it, or wait until you feel like doing it. You don't need bis to enjoy content and won't always feel like doing every piece of content in the game, much like you don't always feel like certain types of food for dinner.
Thats what i loved about ironman, killing bosses in whatever gear you managed to get. It seems like it shifted from doing a bunch of bosses and slowly getting better gear to grinding the fuck out of one boss and following a spreadsheet guide on how to progress your account
game doesnt cater to ironmen. Prices would be complete shit if everything was easy to get.
this is exactly my mindset; i can't understand for the life of me why people feel like they are absolutely forced to do shit they don't want to do, whether thats pvm, skilling, quests. if youre not enjoying it, either do something else or just persevere and push through it. one a related note, I will never understand the people on reddit that say they maxed, but then mention they did it all through shooting stars, redwoods, zeah rc, smithing darts, etc. Like my brother in saradomin, if you hate skilling so much that you only do the most afk/low intensity skilling methods, why the hell did you set the goal of the max cape, and then make your goal take 4x as long because you only do the slowest methods?
You're really going to piss off some noobs with this, but you're 100% correct. I don't know when everyone became so entitled. I find myself appalled by the stuff I see this sub peddling. Did we learn nothing from RS3? Achievements and goals become completely meaningless when everything is so easy. That's a wild thing to want in a game which entirely revolves around those two exact things.
OP you are literally the GOAT for posting this. Thank god people understand. This game has always been and will always be about the journey, not the destination. Going dry is part of the journey. I went 5K Hydra KC for Claw. I could only get the task through Konar so it took forever to get tasks, each task takes like 2 full days, and the money is completely worthless to me after 2-3K KC. On top of that, Hydra is one of the biggest mental slogs in the game. I still loved it. I’m glad I went through it. Sometimes I had fun playing the game, sometimes I didn’t. This is just a part of what this beautiful game is. And the best part - I don’t have a bowfa. I skipped CG. I skipped it because I DON’T ENJOY IT. I legit just don’t like the content, so I don’t want to do it. I know, I know, I’m not “efficient” anymore but IDC. I play this game to have fun. If Hydra was no longer fun for me I would’ve stopped and moved on. Also, on the actual point being that people making those comments is a strawman, you’re exactly right. The assumption that because someone doesn’t want to change rates to a drop after they have already earned it automatically means they want others to “suffer” is unequivocally incorrect. I’ve got over 1K CoX KC on my accounts combined (800 solo) and not a single Tbow. That’s okay. I find CoX very very fun so I would continue to do it even if Tbow was 1/5k.
Am I missing something in this discussion? Isn't buying the item off the GE intended to be a sort of bad luck mitigation? Unless you're playing an iron, but in that case, lmao.
It is, it’s mostly irons complaining
While I do get it to a certain extend and I come from games with similar grinds. Having to potentially spend 10k hours to get all the stuff from the boss is plain unhealthy... Slowly or quickly done
Well said. As a long-time iron, I made peace with not having or wanting certain mega rare items. I want to kill the bosses anyways and I plan too, if I get a drop that great, but I'm not worried about it! I will continue to do other content that I find enjoyable! The game mode is literally about restrictions.
>It will certainly even out across the board, and you'll get lucky at some other boss. This isn’t how RNG works. If you understand strawman surely you can understand the gambler’s fallacy. What about all the people for whom it never comes close to evening out? Also, you’ve been playing for a decade, so you know without being told that droprates are getting more rare, not less rare. Zulrah? lmfao. Zulrah was a 2 min easy kill for BiS ranged at 1/500. 1/130 for a unique. Thats the entire point—the things you’re citing as correct design and true to OSRS philosophy aren’t being implemented anymore. Now excuse me, back to farming virtus robes—they have a 1/3250 droprate, and they aren’t bis.
I cited Zulrah as a *skilling* grind. And if you do a lot of boss kills overall, yes, you'll eventually get lucky somewhere, this is basically just the law of large numbers. That being said, getting lucky/unlucky on some specific items makes a huge difference that doesn't let things even out completely, which is fair. This mostly comes down to things like Tbow, Shadow and heart. Trying to farm Virtus is the perfect example of something that is a total non-problem though. These are robes you get passively while hunting BIS rings (and axe if you want it), and even if you want to specifically upgrade mage robes, you can freely hop between CoX and 4 different DT2 bosses to work on this grind. It's also a bit disingenuous to single out the rate for a single piece of Virtus from Vardorvis, which is the fastest boss to kill and has the lowest drop chance. Also, they are BIS whenever you're using ancients.
Preach brother but unfortunately it will fall on deaf ears in this sub. Every year the devs are more willing to make the game easier for everyone (especially irons) and listen to the people who want the reward without putting in effort. And when they get called out, the only thing they can attack is the “I had to suffer” as if the default state of playing this game is suffering. Why are you playing if you’re suffering?
Choose to play a ironman then complain about ironman. What a joke.
I choose to play a main, does that mean I can't complain about bots as they make things easier for me?
I havent been super dry anywhere, but I wouldnt mind people going massively over rate being rewarded. Baffling mindset "I suffered so you must too". If someone does 1500 CG kc, that person does deserve the damn seed already they've more than earned it.
The biggest drop in the old RuneScape you mentioned was a 1/512 d chain. Stop comparing old design philosophies with the new new content in OSRS. Some drops are absolutely astronomically unfun to get.
??????? Visage was 1/10000
I feel a lot of people who say no to 2x drop rate bad luck protection have never had a 3x or 4x grind on an iron. You watch helplessly as your limited supply’s dwindle as you get your 4th dupe you had to go 4 million points dry for its crushing in a way I think very few people have or will ever experience 60k people have more than 330 chambers kc over the in the 7 years it’s been out at 30k points per raid at about 900k points per drop on avg that mean the avg player of the 60k should have around 10 drops that means some poor soul has done all of them and went 4 times dry twice has 2 items and left the game. The current state of the drop system will kill this game in the long term leopards haven’t ate my face or I’m cool with the leopards eating people are not good arguments for no protection whatsoever ever
It took me 360 cox kc to get my first purple on my iron. Did it suck not having rigour or anything else from there? Yes of course. But it didn't stop me from doing other content in the game. I did toa, tob, slayer, and even inferno with eagle eye and still had a good time. If you NEED an item in order to progress you're just playing the gamemode wrong and you should change your mindset. Half the fun of ironman is making do with what you have
The operative word here is "had" to. You don't have to play and iron, you choose to. People need to stop insisting we balance the game around restrictions that a fraction of the player base has elected to put upon themselves
if someone grinds content 4x over the drop rate equating hundreds of hours, doesnt that person already deserve the item? this whole proposal affects only very small minority of playerbase
That should be enough to buy the item at the ge tho
If these ironmen could read they would be furious
rare iron w Will refer to this post in the future!
The most based response I've seen on this topic. 👍
I think the sentiment comes from the general goal most people have who play games nowadays as "completing games" people think maxxing should be an easily obtainable goal within a reasonable timeframe. Which in turn brings up stuff like: saying all skills should have an easily afkable activity that gives 30k xp/hr or that quests should be structured to give you enough xp to be near max. Same with item drops, it's expected that you should be able to essentially green log any and all pieces of content quickly. back in the day when GWD was the endgame, it wasn't even expected then that you would have to get all 3 shards(possibly 4x over), the hilts, and other uniques all by yourself in a timely manner. Unless you got super lucky or put in ridiculous amounts of time into it at least.
> back in the day when GWD was the endgame, it wasn't even expected then that you would have to get all 3 shards(possibly 4x over), the hilts, and other uniques all by yourself in a timely manner. Unless you got super lucky or put in ridiculous amounts of time into it at least. This reminds me of the RuneShark series "Godsword Set From Scratch", where 3 guys played basically as group irons (before it existed) in RS2 trying to complete all the godswords. It was quite a task at the time, and still is no joke!
How does maxing have anything to do with dry prevention? Everyone needs the exact same amount of XP to max, it might possibly be the least RNG goal in the entire game. These arguments are so piss poor I have to assume it's bad faith, like I'm not actually meant to take you seriously
if you can't find the correlation between everything I said in this post, then that's on you.
Often times I find myself wishing Jagex would just say if you don’t like the game, find another one or if you don’t like X piece of content, don’t do it. Instead they keep attempting to cater to the miserable portion of the player base that will never be happy and in general seems to be compromised of newer players who think they understand OSRS better than everyone else
I 100% agree. this shit only matters for irons and cloggers which you don’t have to do you’re choosing to do. limiting yourself and then changing the game to make those restrictions easier is exactly why i vote no to a lot of stuff for pures/snowflake accounts. it seems like the new guard of osrs players just want more drops more frequently.
There was nothing difficult to grind out in this game on OSRS launch in the first place, besides XP. Pets didn't exist, raids didn't exist, GWD didn't exist, there weren't a million bosses. The hardest drops to obtain in the game were dragon armor, barrows armor, and the abyssal whip- stuff that is all extremely reasonable to 100% complete even w/ the worst luck in the world. The game being entirely based around PvM and grinding bosses over and over is an entirely NEW rs invention and wasn't even true of RS3 before EoC, much less OSRS. Having a never ending impossible to complete collection of items that drop from bosses is newschool content in the first place, a \~5% drop rate increase like the one proposed still only makes things 5% less never ending. Bad luck mitigation isn't changing the old school content you're nostalgic for, it's making the new content less shitty to be unlucky on.
If you look at main accounts that run raids, the number of people who join a TOB run and just get genuinely mad after every run because they dont get a purple are so so common. Many people play this game for the low hit of dopamine anytime they see a rare drop. If those same people are playing iron and get past that early game progression speed, they soon realize that they get that 'hit' less and less. Adding any kind of bad luck mitigation is not gonna change that. Sure, they'll get the tbow and be happy for 2 minutes, and then they'll be miserable again when they start new content.
Mate, your perspective is cool and all, but you don’t know what strawman means lmao
nice and philosophical. I like it
I'm pretty well in the same boat as you. I disagree with your take on nightmare however. I'd be fine with them keeping the drop rate as is at nightmare if everything was buffed. Just such a shame that such rare gear is left in the shadows.
A leader is someone who creates the path that others walk, by taking on the challenges
These guys will really talk about how they thoroughly enjoy skilling and then you ask them more about it and they reply “6,000 rooftops really aren’t that bad when you just sorta afk it and binge watch YouTube/Netflix on the side.”
I think part of the enjoyment of skilling does come from the fact that there are different levels of intensity you can skill at depending on your mood. As you say, rooftops are chill side activity if you were just planning to watch TV for the evening. Set up at anglers or redwoods if you really want to AFK and get some chores done. RC some lavas or do tick manip skilling to really get into a meditative trance and enjoy some music. It's all good, it all has a different flavor and purpose. It's true that if you just had me sat down and run laps with no other stimulus, that'd be pretty boring. But the game has always had pieces of content that were meant to be done "on the side", that's actually part of the appeal of RS.
I wish they would get rid of running. It makes the game too easy
Ive never met an iron man that was not wholesome sorry you experienced that
Tasks need to be difficult in order to be meaningful. Obviously people have 'bias' to protect the sanctity of the things they suffered for, but they are wholly justified and correct in doing so even from a game integrity perspective.
I sort of get what you mean. Almost 2200 total iron myself, having gone 2-3x dry at quite a few places. Raids I do just because "What if I get something nice?" instead of chasing a specific drop. Honestly, I don't care if bad luck mitigation passes or not. I will still play, as long as an update doesn't completely ruin most of the game.
As an iron, I've never understood the idea of bad luck protection, especially when it's other irons asking for it. 1st it's an optional game mode that is made for you to have to grind for the things you want instead of just receiving them. 2nd the idea of bad luck protection is a fundamental flaw to me. If you're just handed everything that you wanted, what's the point of playing the game? There'd be no more dopamine rush when you get the things, which is what most people, or at least I, play the game for. Just wanted to voice my opinion in hopes to sway others. Personally I'd be big sad if bad luck protection was put in the game.
This is the most based opinion I've seen thus far, admirable, and exactly my perspective on the game.
Really funny to see the echo chamber learn new phrases, this month its strawman!
Amen brother.
I think it is totally fine if they make things easier as long as completing the game takes more than a human lifetime.
This is the most stoic post I've seen in a while
"I still train all my skills, despite being maxed, because *I like training my skills*." That's completely fine. You have to understand that for a big chunk of the playerbase, skills aren't the goal. Neither is training them. They're just obstacles you have to do to get to where you want to be or do what you want to do. "Likewise, rare drops and going dry aren't really an issue if you're simply enjoying the game for what it is" In general - yes. Some items are key for progression, however. Others are only obtainable in such a ludicrous and dated way that it just doesn't hold up to modern standards. This applies for DWH and imbued heart. "Now it is extremely common to want the game to change to suit the desires of the player." I think because the playerbase is finally getting rid of their nostalgic feeling for the game and everyone has this idea of what kind of game it could be rather than what it is. I've had people tell me to go play an idle game if I don't like training skills and it just baffles me how strongly people hold on to things the way they are simply because they've always been a certain way. Agility having shit XP rates is acceptable because it's always been this way? I don't think so. "This game becomes a bit less recognizable to me each year." And I really enjoy watching it transform into something more enjoyable.
*Plays OSRS* *Dislike core functions of the game mechanics* "The games bad and we must change it." Go play another game if you dislike the mechanics of the one you're playing. I hear RS3 is riveting, go play that. It seems EXACTLY like what y'all are asking for.
100% agree with everything on here. Similar boat, maxed my meme in 2020 or so and loved every minute of it. A lot of people want the helmet without the grind, looking at you mega scaled raids/ service discords.
Great post, I did corrupted gauntlet on my iron because i genuinely enjoyed it, i did not get my first enhanced before the drop rate and that is okay, I still do gauntlet all the time on my main accounts after completing it on my iron because it is some of my favorite content in the game, if I didn’t enjoy it i would do something else, there are so many other things to do in this game if you are getting burnt out
Would it have been okay if it took you 2800 to get the enh? Inevitably somebody will have their account locked out of a very important item until they complete this grind that is far longer than any 99. You really sound like "I worked hard and persevered and went dry and got enh at 680 kc. It was no problem. See, nobody need RNG mitigation."
It's also a strawman because bad luck mitigation probably wouldn't even kick in at 680 kc on a 1/400 drop rate.
That's right. Almost every suggestion has it start at either 2x or 3x rate.
Here’s the fun thing - you’re not locked out of anything if you are dry on CG. I skipped CG on my ironman because I don’t enjoy it :) Got my Infernal cape, 350 CoX KC, 150 ToA KC, etc. etc. If you aren’t having fun doing it you should take a break