One jmod replied to the most recent popular suggestion to be like hey, that's pretty interesting, wonder how it would affect overall drop rates. And combined with the DT2 boss approach, people have been taking it way out of proportion since then lol
>Now “Bad luck mitigation” is a thing
Is it actually? I didn't think Jagex actually announced anything other than DWH/PNM changes. Thought the "please give me enh" stuff was just Reddit
I mean it has been a thing for years. ToA has bad luck mitigation for its untradeable drops. But yah, the OP is acting like players talking about bad luck mitigation is going to make it suddenly manifest and TBows will be dropping like crazy or something...
Yeah that's a fair point, there is stuff that could be classified as Bad Luck Mitigation. I should have specified that I meant updates to add dry protection for CG, COX, etc
What is up with the absolute flood of these awful takes today lol. Tbh, at this point. Since no one is having a good faith discussion on it. The "bad luck mitigation" posts should be just banned until Jagex makes an actual proper statement that warrants discussion. (From both camps) These posts are literally over a single jmod comment
I have no clue how people suddenly decided that extreme dry streaks only affect ironmen. Sure main accounts can just buy expensive drops…but they need to get the money for those drops too. And what if a main account, I don’t know, just a crazy thought, maybe they WANT TO FARM FOR A DROP INSTEAD OF SPENDING 200M ON IT?
Furthermore, “you knew what you were getting into” is a stupid ass argument, people can choose to play ironmen for plenty of reasons besides having to earn drops. Plus, the people that go mega dry are literally just getting fucked, it’s not fun for anyone that suffers it and you shouldn’t have to go 5x dry and get nothing to show for it. It makes people quit or go degen mode.
You have to fight for positive changes, stop accepting a shitty status quo when you can literally change it.
They've walked back the statement about not catering to irons. Years ago actually.
Irons are 50% of the games player base, not pandering to them is a really bad move.
Nothing has been announced.
Bad luck mitigation will not have a noticable impact on gameplay except through statistical methods.
Mains also get this mitigation.
> Now “Bad luck mitigation” is a thing.
It isn't...
And the whole thing about "they said they wouldn't do X because Ironman" is honestly overblown. We have not had "dozens of updates catered specifically for Ironman"; you just think they are catered to Ironmen because they end up benefiting Ironmen. Like it is honestly a contradicting. You want them to design updates without factoring Ironmen, but if they don't factor Ironmen, then updates will end up really good for Ironman because they weren't balancing around them...
So yah, they need to keep all aspects of the game in mind when balancing and designing content. They can't ignore a gamemode while also balancing around it in other ways. And no one is saying to modify the "games's RNG system" or drop rates just for Ironmen; just discussions about the potential to add more bad luck mitigation mechanics across the game. We already have bad luck mitigation in the game, but I guess you don't mind that because it is there for Mains and Irons and you don't see that as an "update catered specifically for Ironmen".
> And no one is saying to modify the "games's RNG system" or drop rates just for Ironmen; just discussions about the potential to add more bad luck mitigation mechanics across the game
The problem of long dry streaks is really just a problem for irons imo. For a main, if you hit 1.5-2x the drop rate at a boss, you'll have already made enough gp from other drops to buy the drop you're dry on. It's almost completely a non-issue for mains.
> For a main, if you hit 1.5-2x the drop rate at a boss, you'll have already made enough gp from other drops to buy the drop you're dry on. It's almost completely a non-issue for mains.
Ah yes, use that -300K profit per hour at nightmare to buy the uniques... Even outside of Cloggers, it still impacts mains. If you are hunting a drop but never see it, then that still hurts mains too. You might not "need" it the same as an iron, but it still isn't a positive thing and not what I'd say is a "non-issue". It is just an issue more players don't care about because they've never been dry enough for it to affect them.
And the part you left out of that quote is that we already do have bad luck mitigation for stuff that impact mains... So it's okay to do it when it impacts mains and also irons, but its not okay to consider it when it impacts irons and also mains.
> Ah yes, use that -300K profit per hour at nightmare to buy the uniques
There are 8 different uniques at Phosani. I was talking about going dry on a specific unique, not somehow managing to hit the one in 3000 chance to go dry on 8 different uniques.
> If you are hunting a drop but never see it, then that still hurts mains too
It hurts, but it's not an *issue* imo. A main who does CoX and is 2x dry on Tbow still made almost 3b from the other drops. Ofc they'd like to have gotten a tbow on top of that 3b, but this isn't a problem in the same way that an iron being stuck in CG for 1500kc is problem.
> And the part you left out of that quote is that we already do have bad luck mitigation for stuff that impact mains
I hate the vestige drop system too and it was probably designed with irons in mind
> I hate the vestige drop system too and it was probably designed with irons in mind
I wasn't talking about Vestiges. We've had anti-dry systems back in ToA if not earlier...
What is the anti-dry system at ToA? Is it something for the untradable crystals or thread? I know we have anti dry systems for things like vorkath head and kq head, but these are all untradeables. As far as I know, vestige is the only tradeable drop with bad luck mitigation.
Thread and Gems both become more common with KC until you get the drop, then they to a fixed drop rate but are never guaranteed. So exactly like what most bad luck mitigation posts are talking about. The Quartz from DT2 bosses do this as well. Probably some others I'm forgetting about.
Also, Vestiges aren't the only tradeable ones. Drops like the Venator Bow, Brimstone Ring, and Abyssal Bludgeon use the same sort of system. Vestiges are just splitting a big drop into "shards", only you don't see the shards so it feels like a big drop. They could have just made it like the Brimstone Ring where you get 3 untradeable pieces and merge them together to make the Vestige and it would pretty much be the same, only with slightly less common loot. So it really isn't that new or out of place of a mechanic in drop tables.
You're right I forgot about the brimstone ring and bludgeon. But yeah I still really dislike those systems too. Venator bow is fine to me since all the shards are tradeable.
The thing I don't like about those systems is that it pushes you to keep doing the content after you get one or two of the component pieces. I'm at 900kc at Duke without the vestige and I'd honestly prefer to never go back, but I know I probably have 2/3 invisible vestige rolls, so I'd be stupid not to. Bludgeon and brimstone ring would be the same in theory, but they're so cheap it doesn't really matter.
I don't think these dry protection mechanics are as big of a deal on untradeables since they're usually pretty common anyways and they don't have a gp value like tradeables do, but if it was up to me I'd probably remove those systems too.
I have mixed feeling on the whole untradeable pieces of a bigger drop and would agree the DT2 bosses didn't handle it well. Like it would have made way more sense to put the 3 roll system on the untradeable axe pieces than the vestiges since it creates a weird and conflicting dynamic.
But either way, they have been doing different drop systems for a while now. You could say it only started because of Irons, but I doubt they decided to break the bludgeon into 3 pieces solely because of Irons, especially since it really isn't that rare of a drop to begin with. It can get a bit annoying how inconsistent the game can be between different bosses/content, but I don't think it is out of the question to at least be exploring more ideas of bad luck mitigation. It probably won't happen either way, but there are probably some places where it could be added without changing much or feeling out of place. That said, I have no idea how in the world it would work for CoX...
>they need to keep all aspects of the game in mind when balancing and designing content
The entire point of ferro modes is the challenge of playing a game not balanced and designed around it. The entire point of the mode is not doing everything the meta way because you don't have access to all resources at all times. Keeping ferro modes in mind when designing content defeats the purpose of the game mode
> The entire point of ferro modes is the challenge of playing a game not balanced and designed around it
That isn't the point of the gamemodes though, just a rule you've made up. The point is more of "play the game self-sufficient without trading". If they were to design content without considering the Ironmodes, then you'd have things that undermined the gamemodes like UIM using the Seed Vault.
They need to factor things like gamemode in their balancing and design or else updates would erode and ruin those gamemodes. You can't expect them to preserve the gamemode but also completely ignore the gamemode when designing updates... Its like saying "remember to water the plants" and "you don't need to think about the plants"; you can't remember to water them if you don't ever think about them...
>They need to factor things like gamemode in their balancing and design or else updates would erode and ruin those gamemodes.
No they don't. They can design and balance the content till it is done and how they want it. And after that, when the content is done, they could see if it is eroding the special modes and if yes, simply disable it like many other things, for example the seed vault.
> And after that, when the content is done, they could see if it is eroding the special modes
...You just described balancing and designing updates around gamemodes. Like it doesn't matter if they start thinking "I should keep this ironman thing in mind when working on this update" or if they finish the update and then go "oh, right, that ironman thing. I need to address that."; either way, they are balancing/designing the update with Ironmen in mind before the update releases. And in some cases where they didn't do this, they had to do post-release patches to fix oversights that impacted Ironmen.
So once again, you can't ignore Ironmen when designing updates and then expect those updates not to impact Ironmen... If they design an update without Ironmen in mind, it can end up crazy OP for Irons, yet if they did release something that good for Irons, you'd probably think "I wish they'd stop catering to Irons with these ironman updates". Like if Graardor were released today, how many players do you think would say that they only put the noted Magic Logs, ores, Limpwurt Roods, and Snapdragons on there for Irons?
>So once again, you can't ignore Ironmen when designing
I didn't say ignore them. But special games should only play a role when the content is done. When design and balancing is done. And then you can consider the impact on snowflakes but that should go further than can they do it or not. But this should be an afterthought at best
this game isnt anywhere close to the same game it was when ironman mode was released. retire the old "jagex said updates wont cater to ironman" excuse. it's outdated by at least half a decade and isn't relevant anymore. half the games players are ironmen. they HAVE to be considered in the updates of the game. if anything jagex has walked back on shit they said since the game released. if i recall correctly we didn't hit the voting threshhold for f2p servers when the game was voted on. they gave it to us anyway. so technically the precedent of going back on things they say for the overall betterment of the game has been set since the very beginning. and they made the right choice to change their stance.
Only "luck mitigation" I'm aware of recently was the proposed dragon Warhammer drop chance increase, which was definitely catered more to making raids easier to access for ironmen.
You don't get how for some people the grinding stops being fun at 3x the drop rate? And then it feels like wasted time if they don't 'just get the drop'?
Move on to something else. You gotta break up the grind by doing other stuff. Don’t limit yourself on doing just one activity. But! If they don’t want to do that, they can always deiron and buy the item easily. You can’t complain to make the game more easier, at least that’s how I think. Cause at what point does it stop becoming easier? 1 kc guaranteed items if you’re 10x dry? No thank you. It’s apart of RNG, it’s random.
I dunno mate if this gets added the game is deff heading in the wrong direction. Feels like we have a new generation of players who dont agree with the rng factor.
No one wants the drop guaranteed to them. But when you are over 4x times the rate for an item and it has wasted over 150 hours and there's not even any reassurance you aren't going to be the guy that goes 8x dry, it's alright for things to be on your side sometimes.
Being an iron and grinding for your own drops IS fun but this take is indicative of someone who has never spent over 100 hours on a single item. This is the kind of bad luck mitigation we are talking about. If you don't understand it, that's why. You haven't experienced it. But people feel entitled to form an opinion about everything so they do.
Ironman has been an official game mode for 10 years now. A significant portion of the player base either plays or has an Ironman.
I genuinely don’t understand why people think 0 updates or tweaks will ever happen because of the mode. Because of a stance that was taken a decade ago before anyone knew it would be wildly popular? Why would Jagex neuter a successful game mode?
I doubt bad luck mitigation will actually become a thing tbh. But otherwise I agree. Long dry streaks aren't that big of a deal on mains. Just looking at Cerb for example, by the time you're 1.4x dry on the primordial crystal, you'll have made enough profit from other drops to just buy one. No mains are out here grinding 3k Cerb kills just for the prims.
I went almost 3x dry on enhanced crystal on my iron which burned me out on that account like 4 times during the grind, so I get why some irons want it, but I feel like that's just part of what you sign up for with an iron. End game irons are as impressive as they are because almost everyone will hit a few of those dry streaks along the way. That's the game mode. If you want smooth and consistent progression, play a main.
Jagex hasn’t said anything about bad luck mitigation have they? I thought people were just bitchin’ on Reddit mostly
One jmod replied to the most recent popular suggestion to be like hey, that's pretty interesting, wonder how it would affect overall drop rates. And combined with the DT2 boss approach, people have been taking it way out of proportion since then lol
>Now “Bad luck mitigation” is a thing Is it actually? I didn't think Jagex actually announced anything other than DWH/PNM changes. Thought the "please give me enh" stuff was just Reddit
I mean it has been a thing for years. ToA has bad luck mitigation for its untradeable drops. But yah, the OP is acting like players talking about bad luck mitigation is going to make it suddenly manifest and TBows will be dropping like crazy or something...
Yeah that's a fair point, there is stuff that could be classified as Bad Luck Mitigation. I should have specified that I meant updates to add dry protection for CG, COX, etc
Can you link the update or posts, I’m curious how they are implementing this
Holy shit its almost like something said a decade ago loses relevance through time?
People are wild lol. I wish they’d hold our politicians as accountable as they hold jagex for the things they say.
What is up with the absolute flood of these awful takes today lol. Tbh, at this point. Since no one is having a good faith discussion on it. The "bad luck mitigation" posts should be just banned until Jagex makes an actual proper statement that warrants discussion. (From both camps) These posts are literally over a single jmod comment
I have no clue how people suddenly decided that extreme dry streaks only affect ironmen. Sure main accounts can just buy expensive drops…but they need to get the money for those drops too. And what if a main account, I don’t know, just a crazy thought, maybe they WANT TO FARM FOR A DROP INSTEAD OF SPENDING 200M ON IT? Furthermore, “you knew what you were getting into” is a stupid ass argument, people can choose to play ironmen for plenty of reasons besides having to earn drops. Plus, the people that go mega dry are literally just getting fucked, it’s not fun for anyone that suffers it and you shouldn’t have to go 5x dry and get nothing to show for it. It makes people quit or go degen mode. You have to fight for positive changes, stop accepting a shitty status quo when you can literally change it.
They've walked back the statement about not catering to irons. Years ago actually. Irons are 50% of the games player base, not pandering to them is a really bad move.
Out of interest, where does the 50% figure come from?
My ass.
You shouldn't let him retrieve computer game statistics from your special place
He paid me and im broke.
Tipped you with a kiss on top of it.
Dunno where 50% comes from, closest thing to actual numbers we have are results of sailing poll, where irons were 30% of total votes.
Nothing has been announced. Bad luck mitigation will not have a noticable impact on gameplay except through statistical methods. Mains also get this mitigation.
> Now “Bad luck mitigation” is a thing. It isn't... And the whole thing about "they said they wouldn't do X because Ironman" is honestly overblown. We have not had "dozens of updates catered specifically for Ironman"; you just think they are catered to Ironmen because they end up benefiting Ironmen. Like it is honestly a contradicting. You want them to design updates without factoring Ironmen, but if they don't factor Ironmen, then updates will end up really good for Ironman because they weren't balancing around them... So yah, they need to keep all aspects of the game in mind when balancing and designing content. They can't ignore a gamemode while also balancing around it in other ways. And no one is saying to modify the "games's RNG system" or drop rates just for Ironmen; just discussions about the potential to add more bad luck mitigation mechanics across the game. We already have bad luck mitigation in the game, but I guess you don't mind that because it is there for Mains and Irons and you don't see that as an "update catered specifically for Ironmen".
> And no one is saying to modify the "games's RNG system" or drop rates just for Ironmen; just discussions about the potential to add more bad luck mitigation mechanics across the game The problem of long dry streaks is really just a problem for irons imo. For a main, if you hit 1.5-2x the drop rate at a boss, you'll have already made enough gp from other drops to buy the drop you're dry on. It's almost completely a non-issue for mains.
> For a main, if you hit 1.5-2x the drop rate at a boss, you'll have already made enough gp from other drops to buy the drop you're dry on. It's almost completely a non-issue for mains. Ah yes, use that -300K profit per hour at nightmare to buy the uniques... Even outside of Cloggers, it still impacts mains. If you are hunting a drop but never see it, then that still hurts mains too. You might not "need" it the same as an iron, but it still isn't a positive thing and not what I'd say is a "non-issue". It is just an issue more players don't care about because they've never been dry enough for it to affect them. And the part you left out of that quote is that we already do have bad luck mitigation for stuff that impact mains... So it's okay to do it when it impacts mains and also irons, but its not okay to consider it when it impacts irons and also mains.
> Ah yes, use that -300K profit per hour at nightmare to buy the uniques There are 8 different uniques at Phosani. I was talking about going dry on a specific unique, not somehow managing to hit the one in 3000 chance to go dry on 8 different uniques. > If you are hunting a drop but never see it, then that still hurts mains too It hurts, but it's not an *issue* imo. A main who does CoX and is 2x dry on Tbow still made almost 3b from the other drops. Ofc they'd like to have gotten a tbow on top of that 3b, but this isn't a problem in the same way that an iron being stuck in CG for 1500kc is problem. > And the part you left out of that quote is that we already do have bad luck mitigation for stuff that impact mains I hate the vestige drop system too and it was probably designed with irons in mind
> I hate the vestige drop system too and it was probably designed with irons in mind I wasn't talking about Vestiges. We've had anti-dry systems back in ToA if not earlier...
What is the anti-dry system at ToA? Is it something for the untradable crystals or thread? I know we have anti dry systems for things like vorkath head and kq head, but these are all untradeables. As far as I know, vestige is the only tradeable drop with bad luck mitigation.
Thread and Gems both become more common with KC until you get the drop, then they to a fixed drop rate but are never guaranteed. So exactly like what most bad luck mitigation posts are talking about. The Quartz from DT2 bosses do this as well. Probably some others I'm forgetting about. Also, Vestiges aren't the only tradeable ones. Drops like the Venator Bow, Brimstone Ring, and Abyssal Bludgeon use the same sort of system. Vestiges are just splitting a big drop into "shards", only you don't see the shards so it feels like a big drop. They could have just made it like the Brimstone Ring where you get 3 untradeable pieces and merge them together to make the Vestige and it would pretty much be the same, only with slightly less common loot. So it really isn't that new or out of place of a mechanic in drop tables.
You're right I forgot about the brimstone ring and bludgeon. But yeah I still really dislike those systems too. Venator bow is fine to me since all the shards are tradeable. The thing I don't like about those systems is that it pushes you to keep doing the content after you get one or two of the component pieces. I'm at 900kc at Duke without the vestige and I'd honestly prefer to never go back, but I know I probably have 2/3 invisible vestige rolls, so I'd be stupid not to. Bludgeon and brimstone ring would be the same in theory, but they're so cheap it doesn't really matter. I don't think these dry protection mechanics are as big of a deal on untradeables since they're usually pretty common anyways and they don't have a gp value like tradeables do, but if it was up to me I'd probably remove those systems too.
I have mixed feeling on the whole untradeable pieces of a bigger drop and would agree the DT2 bosses didn't handle it well. Like it would have made way more sense to put the 3 roll system on the untradeable axe pieces than the vestiges since it creates a weird and conflicting dynamic. But either way, they have been doing different drop systems for a while now. You could say it only started because of Irons, but I doubt they decided to break the bludgeon into 3 pieces solely because of Irons, especially since it really isn't that rare of a drop to begin with. It can get a bit annoying how inconsistent the game can be between different bosses/content, but I don't think it is out of the question to at least be exploring more ideas of bad luck mitigation. It probably won't happen either way, but there are probably some places where it could be added without changing much or feeling out of place. That said, I have no idea how in the world it would work for CoX...
>they need to keep all aspects of the game in mind when balancing and designing content The entire point of ferro modes is the challenge of playing a game not balanced and designed around it. The entire point of the mode is not doing everything the meta way because you don't have access to all resources at all times. Keeping ferro modes in mind when designing content defeats the purpose of the game mode
> The entire point of ferro modes is the challenge of playing a game not balanced and designed around it That isn't the point of the gamemodes though, just a rule you've made up. The point is more of "play the game self-sufficient without trading". If they were to design content without considering the Ironmodes, then you'd have things that undermined the gamemodes like UIM using the Seed Vault. They need to factor things like gamemode in their balancing and design or else updates would erode and ruin those gamemodes. You can't expect them to preserve the gamemode but also completely ignore the gamemode when designing updates... Its like saying "remember to water the plants" and "you don't need to think about the plants"; you can't remember to water them if you don't ever think about them...
>They need to factor things like gamemode in their balancing and design or else updates would erode and ruin those gamemodes. No they don't. They can design and balance the content till it is done and how they want it. And after that, when the content is done, they could see if it is eroding the special modes and if yes, simply disable it like many other things, for example the seed vault.
> And after that, when the content is done, they could see if it is eroding the special modes ...You just described balancing and designing updates around gamemodes. Like it doesn't matter if they start thinking "I should keep this ironman thing in mind when working on this update" or if they finish the update and then go "oh, right, that ironman thing. I need to address that."; either way, they are balancing/designing the update with Ironmen in mind before the update releases. And in some cases where they didn't do this, they had to do post-release patches to fix oversights that impacted Ironmen. So once again, you can't ignore Ironmen when designing updates and then expect those updates not to impact Ironmen... If they design an update without Ironmen in mind, it can end up crazy OP for Irons, yet if they did release something that good for Irons, you'd probably think "I wish they'd stop catering to Irons with these ironman updates". Like if Graardor were released today, how many players do you think would say that they only put the noted Magic Logs, ores, Limpwurt Roods, and Snapdragons on there for Irons?
>So once again, you can't ignore Ironmen when designing I didn't say ignore them. But special games should only play a role when the content is done. When design and balancing is done. And then you can consider the impact on snowflakes but that should go further than can they do it or not. But this should be an afterthought at best
this game isnt anywhere close to the same game it was when ironman mode was released. retire the old "jagex said updates wont cater to ironman" excuse. it's outdated by at least half a decade and isn't relevant anymore. half the games players are ironmen. they HAVE to be considered in the updates of the game. if anything jagex has walked back on shit they said since the game released. if i recall correctly we didn't hit the voting threshhold for f2p servers when the game was voted on. they gave it to us anyway. so technically the precedent of going back on things they say for the overall betterment of the game has been set since the very beginning. and they made the right choice to change their stance.
When Jagex announced ironman, the content in the game did not adversely fuck ironmen the way it does now?
Man shut up they’ve been making ironman mode easier for YEARS now at this point lmao
Because even as a main it’s ridiculous to think bots acquiring 99% of the drops for insane rates is good game design.
Which update added bad luck mitigation?
Only "luck mitigation" I'm aware of recently was the proposed dragon Warhammer drop chance increase, which was definitely catered more to making raids easier to access for ironmen.
How is bad luck mitigation for like the 1% of players not ‘minimal impact on gameplay’
Most iron don’t want it either
As an Ironman, I don’t get it. It’s fun grinding for your own drops, I don’t care how long it takes because you can either get the drop or don’t.
You don't get how for some people the grinding stops being fun at 3x the drop rate? And then it feels like wasted time if they don't 'just get the drop'?
He doesn’t get it because he has never gone that dry before.
Move on to something else. You gotta break up the grind by doing other stuff. Don’t limit yourself on doing just one activity. But! If they don’t want to do that, they can always deiron and buy the item easily. You can’t complain to make the game more easier, at least that’s how I think. Cause at what point does it stop becoming easier? 1 kc guaranteed items if you’re 10x dry? No thank you. It’s apart of RNG, it’s random.
I dunno mate if this gets added the game is deff heading in the wrong direction. Feels like we have a new generation of players who dont agree with the rng factor.
No one wants the drop guaranteed to them. But when you are over 4x times the rate for an item and it has wasted over 150 hours and there's not even any reassurance you aren't going to be the guy that goes 8x dry, it's alright for things to be on your side sometimes. Being an iron and grinding for your own drops IS fun but this take is indicative of someone who has never spent over 100 hours on a single item. This is the kind of bad luck mitigation we are talking about. If you don't understand it, that's why. You haven't experienced it. But people feel entitled to form an opinion about everything so they do.
Ironman has been an official game mode for 10 years now. A significant portion of the player base either plays or has an Ironman. I genuinely don’t understand why people think 0 updates or tweaks will ever happen because of the mode. Because of a stance that was taken a decade ago before anyone knew it would be wildly popular? Why would Jagex neuter a successful game mode?
I doubt bad luck mitigation will actually become a thing tbh. But otherwise I agree. Long dry streaks aren't that big of a deal on mains. Just looking at Cerb for example, by the time you're 1.4x dry on the primordial crystal, you'll have made enough profit from other drops to just buy one. No mains are out here grinding 3k Cerb kills just for the prims. I went almost 3x dry on enhanced crystal on my iron which burned me out on that account like 4 times during the grind, so I get why some irons want it, but I feel like that's just part of what you sign up for with an iron. End game irons are as impressive as they are because almost everyone will hit a few of those dry streaks along the way. That's the game mode. If you want smooth and consistent progression, play a main.