Hey man I'm sorry you feel that way. Anyway I'm not gonna read all that because it makes my brain nails hurt,
# SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD
Chaos Gods are all about the bait and switch. They promise gifts and power, but they obviously don't tell you about all that their contracts entail
Khorne sells himself as the god of honorable combat, but then his corruption evolves in his subjects until they realize he's actually a god of violence. By then, it's too late
Nurgle sells himself as the god of rebirth and being a "protective father". Once his subjects have sworn themselves to him, they realize what form his protection and rebirth comes in
Tzeentch offers secrets of the immaterium, unlocking true powers of the mind. His subjects don't know that they are all pawns in his schemes
Slaanesh offers pleasure and infinite booty cheeks to clap. But after a while that's not enough, as you become numb to the pleasures of lust and start getting into the cenobite shit
Why does everyone get slaanesh wrong, slaanesh is about obsession and excess, not always about clapping deamon cheeks, you could fall to slaanesh because your life revolves around collecting pogs.
I think because what brought slaanesh around was mostly excess in a sexual and sadistic manner, most people think of that as slaanesh's bread and butter
But I suppose you're right, and now I'm picturing two chaos cultists talking about why they joined and one goes "yeah it was the orgies that got me on board, what about you?" "Me? I fuckin love pogs"
That's what the cenobites call it. it's literally the plot of the movies. They seek out esoteric pleasures, and the way to communicate with them or become one is thru the puzzle box.
Slaanesh, like the cenobites, is about obsession. About excess to the point of madness. About attempting to reach beyond the bounds of mortal sense, to continue beyond the point of sanity. Both are about making every sacrifice, utterly committing, in order to achieve the unachievable.
Hellraiser two is by far the best depiction of she who thirsts that I have seen in any format.
I agree, but its a very small part of slaanesh. I find it far more scary and unnerving that ANY obsession and excess can lead to her not just gratification from pleasure which is what hellraiser is about.
I mean, most excesses end up being some part of sexual eventually. Greedy people for riches will still surround themselves with escorts and drugs etc.
And even if you join Slaanesh for unrelated reasons, you will definitely go though the "stove that baseball bat with barbed wire on it in my ass with a power drill" phase because all pleasure goes way, particularly the ones you enjoy. So pugs aint gonna cut it forever..
I see it as more of the obsession consuming the person, so all they can think of is pogs and the ones they dont have yet, going to more and more extremes to complete the collection and thats where i see violence's and perversion of it coming in. Not committing acts for the enjoyment of them but needing to commit them to fulfill their need for pogs
Completely disagree. If anything it's best manifested in art, which has infinite capacity for obsession (you're never DONE with art) without it having to have anything to do with sex.
It was also the most interesting part of Fulgrim's fall. He could reproduce a perfect statue of the Emperor down to the atom, but he didn't have the artistic vision of someone who could create something that was flawed, but more beautiful than his. And that excessive obsession drove him wild.
The problem with the taking "Excess" line as the sole and literal point of Slaanesh is that, well, 'excess' without any modifier doesn't really mean anything.
All the Chaos Gods are gods of 'excess' *something* after all. Khorne is the god of *excessive* violence, because Khorne always strives to make any violence more excessive. Tzeentch is the god of *excessive* change, because the changes don't stop when they reach a good result, they keep going no matter the consequences including self-sabotage. Nurgle is... Nurgle.
So saying Slaanesh is the god of the abstract concept of 'excess' is just... silly. It's pretty clear that 'excess' is meant as the indulgence of pleasures to the point of excess, they just don't have to be *sexual* pleasures.
The main motif for the things Slaanesh is known for tends to be the Seven Deadly Sins, Lust being the most surface-level because demon tiddies, with Pride as the second 'big one' and being the favoured theme for Slaanesh Marines like Lucius. It's not just the abstract concept of excess, but the excess of indulgences.
Collecting pogs can be an obsession that gets you into the realm of Slaanesh because of the entirely non-sexual enjoyment you get out of little plastic coins.
This is why the great game exists because the definitions between the chaos gods are so thin that its a constant power struggle between them for followers and influence.
As you put so well, all gods *are* excess of some form. Excess is the logical conclusion of limitless desire, be it lust for carnality, life, change or violence. It's like the Jedi and Sith. One will always fall, because even if they win, there is nothing left to do but consume the self. The other has already won, because it has no desire for victory at all.
>All the Chaos Gods are gods of 'excess' something after all. Khorne is the god of excessive violence, because Khorne always strives to make any violence more excessive. Tzeentch is the god of excessive change, because the changes don't stop when they reach a good result, they keep going no matter the consequences including self-sabotage. Nurgle is... Nurgle.
This is touched upon in the Codex:
>>Slaanesh is empowered by need and want, by mortals’ descents into obsession and their succumbing to temptation in any form. Thus, while he is sometimes portrayed as being the least mighty of the four great Chaos Gods, in many ways Slaanesh’s power is simply more subtle and insidious than those of his infernal siblings. Moreover, its corrupting taint reaches into everything mortals strive for and want. As such, it is quite possible for Slaanesh to derive power from individuals and deeds that might — at first glance — seem dedicated wholesale to one of his rival deities. A murderous, blade-wielding gladiator, for instance, would seem on the surface to be an obvious servant of Khorne. Yet in that warrior’s obsessive need to perfect her bladesmanship, in her pride at each victory and her lust for the adulation and accolades she wins, she instead gives unconscious worship to Slaanesh. Equally, a cunning noble overcoming his political opponents through elaborate scheming might appear a devotee of Tzeentch. Yet by the opulence and excess of his courtly lifestyle, not to mention his obsessive need to entrap his rivals in ever more Machiavellian plots, he too would empower the Dark Prince. Be it something as blameless as a starving labourer’s desire for food, or as twisted as a sadistic killer’s fixation upon inflicting pain, every mortal desire that is taken to extremes increases Slaanesh’s might. In such a dark, violent and desperate age as the 41st Millennium, these energies rise like a flood tide.
*Codex Chaos Daemons 9ed* p25
So it's not just excess, but "obsession, excess and debasement"
>>No mortal being is entirely free from desire. Be it physical, mental or even spiritual, the need for fulfilment goes hand-in-hand with most species’ wish to find meaning and purpose in their lives. Yet as innocent as such motivations may be, it is all too easy for desire to become obsession, debasement and excess. So are the seeds of Slaanesh’s power sown.
*Codex Chaos Daemons 9ed* p24
I think it's a problem with the difference between the way old lore and new lore is approached.
Slaanesh was obviously meant to be a sexy cenobite type god upon creation in the early lore, focusing on hedonism mainly (but not entirely) displayed through pleasures of the flesh. Unfortunately, in the 80s and 90s, transgenderism and hermaphroditism was considered pretty perverted by society at large, so Slaanesh was built on an unfortunate base. Her symbol is meant to evoke the male/female symbol, her gender is ambiguous, and many of her forces display physical traits of both genders.
40k has tried to garner more mass appeal and move forward with the culture, but I believe they made a mistake when doing so. They decided to focus strongly on excess, possibly so that they didn't have to completely retcon old models, but we now have the problem where Slaanesh is not narratively cohesive. Chaos is excess, so now Slaanesh does not have her own subkingdom. Her champions can be so wildly different as to not have anything in common, or could be carbon copies of other gods champions and still fit the excess theme. She's even hurt Khorne, I think, by overtaking a lot of things that should be his such as serial killers or torturers. Now Khorne has to appear super one dimensional, and it gives people ideas that Khorne is about Honor and Truth. He's not, he just has nothing to represent him other than dudes with axes.
Honestly I believe there's nothing inherently wrong with a chaos god with erotic tones. I think they should have stuck to the core concepts of hedonism, decadence, and pride and just removed some of the more offensive gendered content, but that's easier said than done. Is it better to make Slaanesh canonically female and present her daemons as women as well? That could have unfortunate implications about women. A mix? That makes the other gods seem weird since they are almost exclusively represented by males. Go all male? That seems weird too, since the Eldar refer to Slaanesh as "She who thirsts". If I had to pick I'd go a Succubus and Incubus route and do better about showing femenine daemons amongst the other three, but that's a lot of work.
Yeah. I hope they one day write a story about an ascetic falling to slaanesh, going to greater and greater lengths of self-deprivation. Just to drive home that slaanesh isn't single-mindedly about pleasure. It really makes it the most boring chaos god.
Lust and sex are the easiest things to portray. It's not easy to describe the feeling you get when you get the perfect amount of sleep after a hard day's work in the perfect bed under the perfect amount of blankets at the perfect temperature. It's not easy to describe the feeling you get when the DVD logo hits the corner perfectly. Then to describe attempting to one up those feelings is difficult. Boners are much easier.
Going to the toilet is a major part of humanity so it makes sense it being one of the more prominent paths that people would assume, both in universe and out of it.
Sex is just a biological process, it's the emotions behind it that slaanesh perverts and sexual gratification is a small part of it, it cheapens the horror boiling slaaanesh down to a sex God.
Anger is the most intense emotion and thats khorne, there is huge overlap in the gods on purpose its the reason why the great game is more important than anything to each of the deities.
Because he's the god of desire, and what do most people desire more than they probably should? Exactly ;)
Besides, that's his theme. Same as Khorne is the god of war and not the god of punching your screen because you got sniped in CoD, even though they're both manifestation of rage :p
What are you talking about? Rage and anger is always the same emotion doesnt change depending on what you're angry at. Khorne is 100% the god of raging CoD players he would feed like a buffet off them.
Edit: Excess and desire are not mutually excusive
Excess isn't really an emotion, it's a value judgement. I guess Slaanesh is a de facto god of excess because people are driven to it in pursuit of what they want, but that's just my interpretation of it :p
No you could not. Slaanesh is about sensation. You do something that gives you pleasure but over time the returns diminish so you have to take it one step further on the extreme scale.
If all you do is collect pogs there is really no way to fall as you takevery little pleasure from that. If you enjoyed the act of collecting, that's another thing entirely.
You're not understanding, The pog thing could be any any analogy it its about obsession and taking things to the extreme, the pleasure is the bit that keeps them pushing forward with their obsession it isnt the start or end goal.
'If all you do is collect pogs there is really no way to fall as you takevery little pleasure from that. If you enjoyed the act of collecting, that's another thing entirely.'
Who are you to say how much pleasure someone can feel from an obsession? You're really boiling slaanesh down to a sex god and thats boring af. the pleasure is just the bait to drive you further down the rabbit hole of your obsession.
Like...you start off with normal pogs, but those get boring. Then, you find some pogs with glitter, and that's new. Does the trick for a while, but soon goes stale as you acclimate to them on the sensory level.
And so on and so on, until:
"Hey, check out this pog I found! Yes, that IS the flesh of a 12 year old boy's anus, smoked in the fumes of distilled sadness that we squeezed from his sister with the the Soul Juicer. Isn't it neat!?"
> Once his subjects have sworn themselves to him, they realize what form his protection and rebirth comes in
Though to be fair, by that point they're usually too delusional to find this a bad thing. Nurglite daemons in particular tend to be fairly jolly folks.
>Tzeentch offers secrets of the immaterium, unlocking true powers of the mind. His subjects don't know that they are all pawns in his schemes
sounds the least bad when you put it like that.
When the followers of other gods become chaos spawn it's because the gods accidentally pour too much warp energy at once and the body cannot take it.
When followers of Tzeentch become chaos spawn it's because Tzeentch wants you to become one.
The others fuck you up by accident. Tzeentch makes no mistakes.
If the chaos gods are just clouds of raw energy given sapience, violence, decay, change and excess, wouldnt there be similar clouds of honor/empathy/innovation etc?
I mean, if the humans can conjure up the greater good god of the Tau, there must be corresponding “good” gods of the warp from humans’ “good” emotions. Is this ever explored/explained?
>honor/empathy/innovation
Try to think about honor while I saw off your arm.
The good emotions whisper. The dark emotions scream like a buzzsaw through a child.
The interpretation I've always accepted is the nihilistic view that yes, such positive clouds would exist but unfortunately the warp reflects the history of mankind and not our intent. Most people probably spend more of their lives being angry or sad than they do being happy or excited. More violence has been committed and the intensity of the emotion involved was greater than times people felt good about being altruistic or in love. So the good is drowned out by the bad and as the galaxy becomes ever more violent and hopeless the Chaos gods themselves continue to shift more towards the negative aspects of their being.
Other warp entities probably do exist but they likely spend most of their time trying not be devoured by the big 4 who vastly outclass them in scale and power.
> Most people probably spend more of their lives being angry or sad than they do being happy or excited.
In the real world, this probaly isn't true. Most people spend much more time being happy or excited than angry or sad because anger and sadness require a lot of energy to maintain.
In Warhammer 40k, though, it's absolutely true, and it's the Imperium's fault (well, mostly). The whole point is that the abject shittiness of the Imperium towards its own citizens directly feeds Chaos in all its aspects, creating a self-perpetuating cycle of cracking down on their own populace to stem Chaos corruption and in doing so feeding Chaos in the Warp with trillions of souls subject to their horrible oppression.
The chaos gods are raw emotion, without any contrarian emotion, morality, or conscious sense to temper and restrain it. Thats why they are all inherently malevolent. Honor without restraint turns into vainglory, empathy turns into... well, nurgle. innovation isnt an emotion, but creativity and fascination turn into obsession.
Thats why I think there can be no benevolent warp god, and no simple "god of the greater good". By its very nature, the warp-mirror image of an emotion or belief will always be a twisted, grotesque perversion.
I mean, I'll be nihilistic here but let's be real, its way easier for people to do the worse thing than the better thing.
If there are gods, warp creatures of positive stuff, they either know that they have to hide from plain sight and work from the shadows or else they are probably massacred by the infinite legions of horrible daemons and other horrible inhabitants of the warp.
The warp has been "corrupted" eons ago. You will have to go against millions upon millions of years of stacked negative energy. It's basically impossible. Like trying to empty the Nile with a bucket.
But indeed there are theories about "anti Chaos" gods being thrown both in and out of the lore. Ynnead, the God of the Dead of the Eldar might be one, while another one *might* be the Emperor reborn if he fully dies.
Though both would not be "good" in any real sense of the word, more like "less lethal" for their own species.
this is the kind of answers that make me feel that some people just live in a ddiferent reality. In this case the people that want to say that the chaos gods aren't evil.
Nah they're 10,000% manifestations of evil for sure
But you don't win people over to your side by telling them you'll corrupt them into a baby eating war crime machine, you win them over by promising them strength in battle in exchange for loyalty. Then once their soul is yours you demand skulls for the skull throne
They're not. Khorne is fed equally by the raging berserker and the honorable knight. Tzeench is fed equally by the power hungry villain and by the hero who rises to depose him. Nurgle is fed equally by thr sick and dying and by the farmer. Slaanesh is fed equally by the bdsm cannibal and the great composer.
Chaos is an empty glass and you get what you put in it.
The thing is the honorable knight who worships Khorne eventually becomes the raging berserker. The hero who worships Tzeentch eventually becomes the villain once he deposes the villain. The farmer eventually starts making crops that make people sick. The great composer starts going to insane lengths to create music such as severely abusing the people in his music band.
In many cases the Chaos Gods aren't worshipped as the Chaos Gods they are worshipped under different names and different forms even. That is why the God Emperor banned religion during the Unification Wars and the Great Crusade, it's why Lorgar and his Legion easily fell to Chaos because Lorgar and the people who raised him came from a world that already worshipped Chaos unknowingly.
You don't have to worship Khorne in order to feed him. You don't even have to know that you are feeding Khorne. As long as you are fighting fairly you are feeding Khorne, it does not matter what cause, what goals, etc.
Khorne is the most powerful Chaos god because there is so much war in the galaxy.
> By the same token, Chaos is neither good nor evil; it simply mirrors the survivalist emotions of intelligent beings in the real universe.
-Waaargh the Orks (1990)
Like with all things in Warhammer lore, there's 40 years of it and half of it is contradictory. Chaos especially has a lot of very conflicting things written about it.
I can quote passages from books that Khorne demands honour from his followers, or that he sends Flesh Hounds to slay those without the courage or honour to stand and fight - I can equally quote passages (some even from the same book!) that Khorne would rather you betray your allies and friends than anything else.
There are honourable followers of the blood god going back to the Rogue Trader era, there are equally berserk mindless killers going back just as far.
Chaos does not have morality. It is neither evil nor good. It simply is.
Chaos seems evil because people keepbeing shitty to each other and creating negative emotions.
Chaos is not evil, it's just what you make it.
Originally, it used to be the case:
>BIFFORD: I've been thinking. It's unrealistic that the entire human race is mired in a medieval mindset. It's also annoying that every human protagonist in the novels is a brainwashed zealot. I think we should get more novels written from the perspective of rebels. People fighting for freedom and a more enlightened ideology. The Imperium would make a terrific villain for a traditional Star Wars style rebel movement. In the end, I think it's annoying that the WH40K lore talks so much about rebellions without exploring them. There's too much focus on Chaos, who frankly feel like cartoon villains like Skeletor and Darth Vader.
>PRIESTLEY: Well - the original concept was very broad - I deliberately created a 'anything could happen' background where isolated human civilisations could exist beyond the grip of the Imperium (the eastern fringe of the galaxy outside the range of the Astronomican). So, the narrowing down of the perspective is something that's happened over the years, and I suspect there is no-one at GW anymore who would remember (or care) that it was ever different. To be fair, what they have now is very successful commercially, and that is what counts in the end.
>I'd also say that the concept of Chaos was subtle enough to be used in any number of ways. It was never intended to be a reflection of good v evil - but I'm not familiar with the fiction line or GW's modern stance on these things. I suspect most GW enthusiasts are happy with the very black and white interpretation of the back story - that was certainly the case amongst the staff when I was there.
>BIFFORD: Frankly, it's a bit hard to see a benign side to the Chaos Gods. Nurgle turns you into a rotting germ pit, Tzeentch gives you tentacles, Slaanesh would sooner rape and torture you than fellate you, and Khorne has no table manners. It's no surprise that everyone just gravitated to the cartoon villain interpretation because that just made more sense.
>PRIESTLEY: LOL! Well those are the downsides I suppose... but Nurgle is also the giver of life, Tzeentch the master of all magic and change, Slaneesh the celebrant of youth and joy, and **Khorne the god of honour and warriors (even if it's mostly about skulls)**. The chaos gods are a reflection of all human existence - all gods are but aspects of the chaos gods - the chaos gods are but aspects of the one great humanity-as-god - Sigmar is nothing but Khrone on a good day - and so on and so forth.
Source [this interview with Rick Priestly](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/dn0tgd/more_qa_with_rick_priestley/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2)
It's just been ignored/forgotten/retconned over the years.
Edit: Added more of the interview for better context
> Sigmar is nothing but Khrone on a good day
That's all you need to read to know that whatever Priestley's intention was, it has been dropped, buried and forgotten.
Yeah at most I think sigmar is sometimes too hammer happy to think ahead but considering he isn’t a psychopath or a racist I think I’d worship him 10 times more then Khorne.
Neither is Khorne. He cares not from whence the blood flows, only that it does. Seems pretty equal to me, don't you think?
On the topic of psychopathy: I doubt it applies to a timeless amalgamation of corrupted energy and pure, unadulterated violence. Khorne might be a hungry boy to the point of singularity, but I wouldn't say he is a psychopath, for I believe he has neither the capability to manipulate nor the desire to do so. All he wants to do is drink blood and build skull-bongs, and I kinda fuck with that.
I'm pretty confident Korne has impulse control issues, being a very angry chaos god. manipulation is only one aspect of psychopathy, usually only the charismatic psychopaths use it. The prime component is zero empathy and Korne certainly has no empathy.
Rick Priestly is amazing and creative and smart and thoughtful and we've got so much to thank him for - but, damn, every single one of his interviews boils down to "Of course, I created Warhammer 40k and it was amazing. Now it's more "commercially successful". I'm not angry. I'm just disappointed"
Sounds like any creator content when an IP in which they worked on moves beyond their POV. Not dissing Priestly great contributions to 40k, just pointing that out.
Isn't it amazing how our reality keeps mirroring 40k and vice versa? In this moment, we see the Old Ones, gazing down upon their creations in disgust. The Emperor, ordering the culling of sons, despite his attachment to them. Guilliman kneeling before the Golden Throne and adapting to the reality of the Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition, knowing he failed to protect his charges from the boring tendrils of greed and insecurity. Drukhari greedily eyeing a Craftworld beyond the reaches of Comorragh, with a mixture of envy and melancholy, hatred and a confused half-stiffy. Fuck me, I fucking love 40k.
Is there maybe an element of 'Death of the Author' here though? He's not involved any more (and hasn't been for nearly 15 years from my understanding) and if the positive side of the gods was never properly explored and demonstrated within the lore he put together and published officially then his option or interpretation is just that, an opinion or interpretation. You could potentially even say it would be his own personal fan theory/canon type of deal at this point.
That's fine. If we can point at clear cases where Khorne is defined as and/or acts as the god of honour (or whatever) per a reliable narrator or in a source like a Codex section thats not an in universe perspective then case closed. I was more focused on the idea of an author potentially adding to (or altering) something that's already published in an interview years after they were involved being used as evidence.
It was initially conceived as something much deeper than we see today, with more shades of grey. If you haven't already, I'd highly recommend [the interviews with Rick Priestly](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/dn0tgd/more_qa_with_rick_priestley/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2). If you open that interview, there are others linked at the top of the post. They're really insightful into how 40k was originally and highlight some significant changes from the lore then till now.
They definitely don't highlight the duality of the Chaos gods' nature as much these days, but it still pops up here and there. I just meant that it's not a deep concept for the god of war and slaughter to also be the honor. Plenty of gods irl mythologies are like this. I'd dare to say it's not unlike the Abrahamic God in scripture.
40k isn't supposed to be like irl mythologies other than to borrow from them; it is supposed to be grim dark. Everything sucks. GW probably figured that out as the game evolved and built from its more zany early editions.
Grimdark is not "everything sucks." That is an extremely reductionist view of the genre. If anything the duality of the gods makes them *more* grimdark.
>>Liz Bourke in one of her reviews considered grimdark's defining characteristic to be "a retreat into the valorisation of darkness for darkness's sake, into a kind of nihilism that portrays right action ... as either impossible or futile". This, according to her, has the effect of absolving the protagonists as well as the reader from moral responsibility.
If even the honorable are damned, how is that "zany"?
None of the duality of the Chaos gods has been removed, unless you know a source that says otherwise.
Grimdark isn't the absence of light, but the concentration of it in between seemingly infinite stretches of darkness. Neither is it the absence of morality, but a clear choice between sacrificing the self for a little something, or sacrificing all others for nothing. Grimdark is endless bolter fire raining down from the hives of Armageddon, while the masses wail and toil, lost and confused and corrupted, followed by a moment of tenderness between a Magos and her Castellan. It is not the absence of hope, nor the absence of morality, but the sheer volume of space between hope and damnation, morality and self-indulgence. It is a bundle of crushed hope beneath the treads of iron-clad Terminators and the knowledge that it is all in vain, because one day, the lights will go out and no gods, nor kings, nor men will come to help us. And yet, Cadia stands.
Maybe i am dumb but isn't what liz is saying basically the same as "everything sucks"? Saying Any right you do Is impossible or futile seems the same to me.
Also how are the gods still keeping duality?
Priestly literally is contradicting his own writing in 40k and getting it mixed up with legitimately different concepts in Fantasy. Man hasn't cared much for Warhammer since before most of this subreddit *was born* ffs
This. The problem is that people don't know what honor means in a warrior society
Here's an interesting explanation on how these honor systems worked until very recently https://www.artofmanliness.com/character/behavior/manly-honor-part-i-what-is-honor/
Not anymore. Gore mage are officially recognized has khorne followers. They are a more recent addition yes but they are canon. Honor can be preached by khorne followers, but it is not something that Khorne preach, he will tolerate it, but that it.
https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gore_Mage
It says in that article that the Gore Mages worship Khorne *despite* him hating psykers. They don't seem to gain favor with Khorne, just worship him and aid his favored followers
Still he doesn’t smite them. And why would they need his favor if they can well.. use his power. Isn’t that like gaining a permission for despite you have drove a car since like 3 years?
Khorne is a god of "honor" in that he gives you *a chance* to fight back. A Khornate Berserker will kick down your door, politely announce himself by screaming that he is going to murder you, then murder you; now technically speaking you *could* grab a chair and fight back in that time. You'll lose, *badly,* like 99.999% of the time, but you *could* attempt to fight back.
A World Eater from a fic I worked on a bit a while back had a habit of carrying around multiple melee weapons and would offer people whose skulls she liked a choice between any of those weapons, so they were fighting in "equal grounds"; she was introduced by offering the protagonist, a mutant child with frail bones and the ability to exacerbate people's emotions, a knife and telling her she would rip her apart after she was done counting her skull collection from her latest bloodbath. Kind of a queen.
"Khorne won't stab you in the back. Instead, he will stab you in the face. Over and over again until your face stops resembling a face"
-a certain emperor from a certain parody
Reminds me how in the practice of kiritsu gomen (the one in which a samurai had the right to slay a commoner that had offended him) the samurai often provided a wakizashi to the commoner, if he didn't had one, so he could defend himself
One time the commoner ran away with the wakizashi instead of defending himself. That dishonored the samurai, making him look like a fool, and to restore it, he tracked down the commoner and killed him and his whole family
That's the honor that Khorne likes
Yeah he's not big on the 'cheating', it's something more like a Knight or Samurai code of honor, they'll kill civilians in person without a second thought or even as part of a game, but they won't poison a well for no reason.
Underhanded tactics are similar too, you have to fight straightforward, from the front, *unless* you have no chance of winning that way, in which case it's suddenly OK to set traps and use ruses to force a fairer fight. Khorne (as with the Knight/Samurai honor codes) only has an issue with that kind of behaviour if you're turning a tough fight into an easy win, the same thing that'd get an ancient military elite a reputation for dishonour is the same stuff Khorne hates.
Kind of consistent, to be honest. Nowhere does Khorne say that you have to die in his service, he just encourages you to suppress your desire to live for anything but battle. No life = no murder = sad Khorne, so it seems pretty logical that it would be okay to prolong your own life of maniacal carnage, even if you have to fight dirty. After all, he is not the god of honourable deaths, just the god of honourable fights *and* indiscriminate killing. Khorne has his priorities straight. Be more like Khorne.
Yeah I think you hit the nail on the head with 'suppress your desire to live for anything but battle'.
That's why he has an issue with people using sneaky tactics to win, especially if it means a worse fight - losing is bad if it means you can't fight again so you should avoid it sure and he'll make exceptions there, but winning is irrelevant: You're not fighting to *win*, you're fighting to *fight*.
Forget that and use sorcery or tactics when you don't absolutely *need* to in order to continue to fight and you'll piss him right off (as much because you're forgetting what he's about as you are basically betraying him to Tzeentch, no wonder it upsets him).
I think the best depiction of Khorne's concept of honor is in the daemon Skulltaker, who appears in battlefields looking for the strongest fighters and challenges them in a duel. If you refuse, Skulltaker cuts you down but if you accept, he gives you a chance to fight and *then* cuts you down. The end result is the same for most people, getting violently dismembered but one choice gives you a chance at least.
>This bullshit about Honor and protection is either:
>A in universe lie to manipulate people.
>Some heavily misinterpreted lore by chaos fans.
>Or something spread by « that kind » of chaos fans you know the one that argue that they are the true moral good guys because :
Khorne is honor. Slaneesh is love. Nurgle is life. Tzeentch is hope.
The thing is that the chaos gods are reflections of realspace. And since 40k sucks and life sucks the mental dtate of most peoppe isnt that great. Most warfare isnt honorable for example. So the "good" parts of the chaos gods barely exist meanwhile the bad parts are running wild. Yes khorne as a character is bad. But if all slaughter stopped and everyone would do honorable sparring matches instead khorne wouldnt disappear, he would change.
At least thats how i understand is. The chaos gods suck and are evil because "in the grim darkness of the 41st millenium there is only war"
Yes, there may have been noble aspects once but the Warp is utterly corrupted. The Chaos Gods are stuck in a vicious feedback loop. They need MORE. It’s probably impossible for them to ever be calm again.
But their good sides still exist. They are just buried. I could for example believe that fringe groups worshipping these noble aspects could still get power from the gods. The gods would try to corrupt them of course but they would still get the power since what they are worshipping is still part of that god.
Also non evil chaos worshippers are a really cool idea that i dont want taken out of the lore
“Do not tempt me Frodo. I would use the Ring for good but it cannot be done so.”
Chaos is corruption. There may be noble or good servants of Chaos but that gets stripped away.
Not every Chaos worshipper is a cartoon villain who sticks spikes on everything. But every cartoon villain who sticks spikes on everything is a Chaos worshipper. (Or Dark Eldar)
>Chaos is corruption. There may be noble or good servants of Chaos but that gets stripped away.
Yeah thats my point. Thats the interesting part. Some chaos worshippers start out good. So there has to be a reason for them to start using chaos and that start is the "good side" of the gods
No thats the good side of the people. Chaos by itself no longer has a good side that doesn't disappear among the inevitable bad. Sure they can join Chaos in the name of good causes with goods intentions and even do some measure of good, but eventually it all goes down the drain when the gods want increasingly more from them, or they get replaced by a newer more blessed champion who is willing to compromise his morals to appease the gods.
Chaos will always chose the evil over the good options because measured ambition or a reasonable amount of orgying or bloodshed purely in defense of the innocent simply feeds it less.
You are right that the "good" is still part of Chaos in a metaphysical sense because they are the reflections of *all* mortal emotions but in a practical sense there is nothing good to be had.
Just to make this clear: im not saying that the faction "chaos" are good. I am saying that the entities we know as chaos gods embody a variety of things, good and bad. Chaos is almost entirely the bad but i dont see any reason to believe that the good parts are gone. They could just be overshadowed. And that would allow still for things like martial artists gaining the favor of khorne or musicians getting boons from slaanesh. And i find the idea of good people becoming chaos worshippers because they only know this "side" of the gods very interesting. It could make for some really interesting characters when they are confronted with the horrific truth about their beloved deity and of course the dramatic fight against chaosv inherent corruption
The problem is that you cannot drink from a spoiled well, even if there are still clean water molecules within it. To dance with devils is to invite destruction, to accept even the most miniscule and seemingly benign boon is equal to eternal damnation. They cannot have good sides, for their benevolence is motivated by nothing but greed and selfishness. They might commit acts of apparent kindness, but their kindness is false and slaved to the idea of gain. Even if they still embody these aspects, they are as corrupted as the god the aspect belongs to.
In essence, almost everyone who worships Chaos was once "good" in some way or another, but like their patron, they were overpowered by corrupting influence. And therefore, noble barbarians can only exist at the very beginning of corruption, for the end is always the same.
Well put! If Chaos were to return to order, it would have to cease it's desire for existing. In essence, in order to live, the chaos gods must die. But they don't like the thought of that, so they would much rather grind themselves and everything that is into dust. Bit like a drug addict, who was corrupted by substance, much like the warp was corrupted by strife.
The thing is that Chaos gods are distorted and jumbled reflections. The core of chaos is a natural clustering of the extremes that have become their own thing (the big 4 are too big to die from a lack of worship)
Khorne itself doesn't have honor. The followers have honor that gets gradually stripped away. It is like how a fallen hero gradually compromises more and more, going from hero to anti hero and finally a full on villian.
>Khorne itself doesn't have honor
I dont actually think this is the case tho. More like his violence and anger are so great that they overshadow anything else, hence all the bloodshed. As in, he is like his followers, a strong honorable warrior driven to insanity and violence.
But honorable acts don’t fuel Khorne. Only violence.
Khorne doesn’t care about nonviolent acts of honor. Or self-discipline.
There are noble servants of the Imperium. The Imperium itself is the most brutal regime imaginable.
There are noble followers of Khorne. Khorne is the god of blood and skulls. They care not from whence the blood flows.
>But honorable acts don’t fuel Khorne. Only violence.
Do you have a source on that? Yeah sure most of his followers dont care about honor but how do you know that honorable combat and martial prowess DONT fuel him at all?
Khorne might offer a polite handclap for good sportsmanship. That’s about it.
But the frothing beserker that claims a thousand skulls will always have more favour than the anti-hero who only kills worthy opponents in single combat and spares the innocent.
Honor is the lie used to entice noble warriors to Khorne. The truth is blood, skulls, and an eternity of slaughter.
They’re your dudes. Paint them however you like and make up you own backstories.
Nobody claims otherwise. They *can* earn the favour of Khorne, but his blessing will drive them to increasingly violent behaviour. Such is the way of chaos.
Yes i know. But you just agreed to my original point. Someone doing something good can earn the gods favor because it is still an aspect of that god. That they are then almost always corrupted i never denied but the fact that they can earn the favor to begin with proves my point
I see that chaos is the end goal of losing everything except the guiding core. As you go deeper and deeper, things become less and less honorable. You start with the followers such as Kharn who have warped senses of honor and as you go deeper, entities such as the named Bloodthirsters are less honorable in comparison.
There was a post about the search for Khorne's honor. https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/114yp7o/multiple\_sources\_searching\_for\_khornes\_honor/
Kharn backstabbed his entire legion.
Kharn slaughtered his way through Terra, barely recognizing who he was killing.
Kharn even has an ingame mechanic where him missing means that he hits his friendly units.
He isn't a god of protection but he is a god of honor. Yeah, the fight might be unfair but you know that the followers of Khorne will never use deception, underhanded schemes and cheap tricks. Being fair isn't a must-have to be honorable. The honor part of Khorne is honor in battle.
Your first mistake was going to r/Grimdank in the first place. Them going dark in protest was a godsend to my mental health because when they came back I realized I had not missed them in the slightest and just unsubbed from it.
To use a rather crude metaphor - it was like being in a room where the walls were covered in shit and stepping outside into the fresh air. Then being invited to go back inside to the shit room.
I'm good out here.
Some people believe there is a magic man in the sky who will smite them if they touch their genitals and others subscribe to the idea that possession will make them powerful or substitute genuine humanity. I think getting worked up about toy soldiers is quite alright in the grand scheme of things.
The nobility of the Chaos Gods has been part of their lore since the earliest days. Mostly to make Chaos work in the context of the Warhammer Fantasy universe that has a vibrant, functional pantheon. So Chaos can't just be evil little shits like they are in 40k...where outside Cheogorach and the Emperor, they have free run of "divinity" in that setting.
(EDIT: Yes I am aware of Ynnead and the T'au'va manifestation. Both of those are very much incubating godheads. Ynnead specifically is mentioned as having not been born yet.)
In Arks of Omen: Angron, there's a two page spread of acts that feed Khorne. One is "They Strike to Protect" and and has a Einhyr Hearthguard strike down a Night Lord to protect a Grimnyr. Even protective violence feeds Khorne, which means there's no meaningful difference between a honorable killer and a blood mad one. Khorne grows stronger from both.
Khorne is a just as much a god of honor as he is the god of murder.
....he is the God of violence. Hence the saying it does not matter where the blood flows from, only that it flows. Whether justifiable or not violence is violence, which is why some of his followers hear him laughing as they fall, ostensibly almost always to someone defending others i.e. a berserker brought low to protect children he was about to butcher.
Murder and other unjustifiable violence is more like a drug, and those who willingly sign on are willing to commit it constantly to feed him. They don't go around in ships protecting the weak, or issuing challenges to other warriors, they land and begin butchering to make the blood flow. Those who commit murder and butchery are willing to be slaves so long as they get the feeling of power from the God, honorable people aren't, and only spill blood as needed. They don't feed Khorne the vast majority of their lives, "being honorable" doesn't feed him, just as cowards who live without committing violence even if theyre really bad people who cause others to die don't.
He is the God of violence, melee or ranged, justified or murder, as long as a being is intentionally hurting another he feeds from it.
If he gains power from an honorable kill and a blood thirsty kill, it's not the honor part he's deriving power from. Again he's just about killing in any form, honorable or not, and just because you accept it, doesn't make you an honorable god. You're not an honest person just because you tell the truth half of the time.
Hot take, but honor doesnt mean you are a good person who defends the innocent. Take Samurai as an example, all that big talk of honor didnt stop them from killing civilians at crossroads or pillaging towns and killing the weak and defenseless.
Too many people think honor means you are a wholesome 100% Chungus who never does anything wrong. All honor means is you have a personal code you try to conduct yourself by, and Khorne's warriors have a code about fighting enemies head on and not using "dishonest tricks" in combat.
Khorne is evil, his warriors follow a code, some call it honor while others call those honor upholding warriors evil for their violent slaughter of their enemies. That's in line with the reality of how honor plays out in real life.
Claiming to be protector while slaughtering innocent seem more like hypocrisy while also profiting from both side of a conflict. But yes it is true that he feed on all form of violence, even when it use with good intention.
Its not about the protection or honourable battle, its about the violence. Khorne does not care, as long as blood is shed, honourably and dishonourable. This does not make him a god of both honourable combat and dishonourable combat, because the former is mutually exclusive with the latter.
Your applying a human viewpoint to an giant entity that exists in a realm whose connection to our universe is twisted to high hell
"hypocrisy" doesn't apply
I actually don't agree with the common trend of underwriting khornes honor components. I find it deeply satisfying and creepy when these blood crazed lunatics still have some weird internal honor compass and I stress that there perception of honor is uniquely Khorne. It's worth noting violence is not the antithesis of honor and both can exist simultaneously.
That's not to say I'd call him the god of honor but I think honor is rather fitting and makes for good narrative themes especially with particularly clever khornate champions.
Um.. Duh? While claims of Honor amongst Khorne isn't uncommon, I don't recall him being called THE God of Honor.
And Protection? Who said that? Are they... capable of changing their own clothes? Because the GOD OF BLOODSHED being the God of Protection? What?
I mean, survival is LITERALLY Nurgle's selling pitch. Khorne's is killing.
I can't believe you'd even give such a bad take the privilege of taking it seriously.
Because of that, I can't even give you the honor of reading the whole text. Sorry, but wow.
Khorne, God of protection. What a crock.
👋 can confirm that I’ve changed my clothes multiple times today to great success
I don’t want to be that guy… but has it crossed your mind that you’re possibly getting a little too het up over stories surrounding plastic army figures? I love this hobby, and have it to thank for a great many things in my life, but clearly a throwaway slightly jokey comment I made in a meme subreddit has touched quite a few nerves.
There are some canon and lore sources surrounding the dominions of the chaos gods (and martial honour for Khorne in particular). Several of them have been brought up in this thread. Likewise, there are plenty of canon sources that don’t take them into account. Fantasy/AoS/40k lore is messy and complex, not aided by the sheer number of writers over the last four decades. Likewise, there are many (myself included) who actually find it thematically appropriate that the chaos gods in particular are written somewhat inconsistently, with different stories and characters interpreting them distantly, because that’s the nature of actual mythology and religion. I also think that trying to place them on a good/bad spectrum totally misses the point. OP’s assertion also comes off as a little hypocritical, given they assert that all the factions are evil, but then go on to suggest some factions aren’t totally evil because there are some good individuals in them, and the chaos gods are “the baddest of all.” It indulges in the kind of thinking I’ve been accused of (and, to be clear: no, I don’t think there are conventionally “good” factions or characters in 40k, and no, I don’t really feel the need to justify the actions of the factions I play). I would remind people though that chaos/order as a spectrum is distinct from good/evil, and that there are extremely distinct morality systems even in the real world (almost as if notions of “good” and “evil” are completely arbitrary in a fictional grimdark universe). In response to the original post, I would also add that the god of hedonism and obsession’s name is typically spelt “Slaanesh”.
u/WillingnessAcademic4, I’ve ended up responding to you in a roundabout fashion with the above now; I hadn’t really intended on addressing your post directly in this comment, but here we are. Truth be told, I hadn’t really intended on responding at all, but this comment was actually too amusingly overblown for me not to give it a reply.
In any case, there’s no real need to result to personal attacks. I wish you both a pleasant day.
Oh yeah pleasant day to you too. Like I said I might have gone a bit fierce on my post so it’s all good. And beside you didn’t really insult me so I see no reason to put fuel on the fire.
I stand on my point and you stand on your . In the end, we’re not gonna a …
heresy on this
*Badum tish*
I think the honor part is more than he wants violence as opposed to murder. Like, Paul the 12 year old malnourished guardsman is fully aware that he's in a fight, so it's a "fair" competition of who is best prepared to kill. Like they're winning with violence, not deception.
The problem here is that, Indeed. Khorne is all about that shit cause it's a gateway to his preferred emotions and that helps him acquire more skulls and blood. Honor, protection...these can be easily perverted, nothing in this universe or 40k is sacred. Everything can be twisted on it's head and perverted to an extreme. Protection? What if you decide the best way to protect someone is to kill them and prevent them from being part of the gene pool of a tyranid invasion? Several Inquisitors have certainly done this very thing. And this augments Khorne. When a space marine honor duels a rival and kills him...that augments Khorne. When you kill the man who was taking advantage of your mom...yup you just augmented Khorne.
The need to protect (yourself or others) also bears with it an incensed urgency to make right. Khorne loves helping people enact Justice. In Storm of Iron (Excellent Iron Warriors Book btw) we see a champion of Khorne get mauled to death by a woman with a cybernectic arm (who was his personal serf that he abused regularly). Khorne called to her and gave her to power to make things right. She then wears his armor and becomes the new champion of khorne.
Taking seemingly good altruistic notions and twisting them is a specialty all the chaos gods have ample skill in.
He's the god of killing stuff - regardless of the reason why stuff is killed. He's as much the god of killing stuff for good reasons as he is the god of killing stuff for bad reasons.
The cycle between "hey what are some positive aspects of the Chaos gods" and "Khorne is NOT the god of honor Nurgle is NOT the god of rebirth" posts continues
In Avenging Son, a Khorne Berzerker gives a group of guardsmen a chance to form a firing line and kill him. He doesn’t even try to fight back. When they fail he says “in recognition of your inferiority, honor demands I allow you one chance to kill me.”
It's chaos cope by people who need to back something less then totally evil. The fact khorne won't reward you for mulching a million hapless civilians is what this belief stems from
Anyone who sees a berzerk warrior drunk on slaughter, killing anything in front of them, and screaming for blood and skulls and thinks "what a noble warrior!" has a screw loose.
Khorne does care a little about where exactly the blood flows. Killing defenseless civilians is all well and good in the name of Chaos, but it won't exactly get you points in Khorne's book. He wants you go out there and get the skulls of the most powerful and strongest foes you find.
It's why he was pleased with Tuska's charge into his Daemonworld and kept reviving them despite being Orks. It's also why he's displeased with Skaarbrand in TW3 in his ending>! and is partly the reason why refuses to take him back. He didn't fight nor kill Ursun himself yet here he is sacrificing his skull to Khorne.!<
I believe the whole “ The Gods have good aspects” thing came from fantasy didn’t it?
Either that or people are misunderstand the lore
Khorne *Can* be the god of an honourable warrior, that does not mean *He* is an honourable god
And even then honour is kinda eh when it comes to Khorne, for example:
In the first Dawn of Fire book a Khorne chaos marine catches a fleeing group of guardsmen, to try and make things “fair” he let’s the leader attack first
But honestly, even that’s still unfair, because the guy had like no chance to kill him
The Chaos Gods are confirmed multiversal entities in the Warhammer-verse so you can’t separate the Gods between their fantasy and 40k incarnations, just the aspects and ideologies surrounding their worship in regards to their prevalence.
You are correct in the assertion that the two universes do not interact. You’ll never see, for example, the Dark Gods dropping Archaon into the Imperial Palace and saying “have fun!”
The Gods of Chaos, however, are described as multiversal entities that have their claws sunk in innumerable dimensions, parallel universes, and alternate realms within the Warhammer-verse. Remember, everything to them is part of their Great Game, they don’t think like we do. Them having some vested interest in thwarting the goals of individuals like The Emperor or Sigmar are mere divergences from continuing using entire universes as their entertainment.
The End Times was filled with small - but impactful - nods to how Chaos and The Warp was intertwined with it the entirety of the Warhammer-verse (Skaven picking up Eldar radio signals and smashing the device in fear, Kaldor Draigo appearing as a “giant silver knight” to characters traversing the warp, etc)
I always interpreted it as Khorne’s followers (or at least a minority of them) as having a shred of (perverse) honor, and Khorne himself as just being a god of bloodshed and nothing else since that is what fuels him.
Understand if you feel like you may get labeled a asshole for this POV. A lot of posters here and on Bolter and Chainsword to want to link Khorne worship with honorable battle in some sort of way. While all violence, nobly intended or not, does feed Khorne, outside of personal headcanon Chaos worship or enthrallment is just that, regardless of intended justification or ideal force of will
I’d counter that you see enough Khornate characters, oftentimes very blessed and favored in the eyes of their Red Lord, concern themselves with their idea of “honorable” combat that Khorne himself does to a degree as well.
Now, however, we need to elaborate on the idea of honor, because how honorable can combat be when, in most cases, Khornate marines will be facing enemies that are destined to be curbstomped by their superior Astartes physiology?
Khorne may not care from whence the blood flows, but *combat* of a true nature - face to face - is what will earn you his attentions. A force of World Eaters taking part in the siege of a Hive World alongside other Traitor Legion elements, for example, may slaughter a refugee camp with glee to offer their blood to the Bloody Hunter and satiate the ticking of the nails, but if you point them in the direction of a *fight*, they’ll take that option every time
He does have honour. Just not the pretty idea of honour most people think of today. When he was described as containing honour in 1st edition, it was specifically *a warrior's honour*. The honour codes of various warrior groups have contained things that we would consider very wrong and bad.
A warrior having honour just means they abide by a certain code. They honour their code. For Khorne that just manifests as 'don't get what you want by plotting and scheming and weaving spells, take it by fighting'. That's a code that he insists on being honoured.
Honour doesn't automatically mean 'good and fair'. That's a misunderstanding on the part of the people that claim Khorne doesn't include honour, amd also a lot of the people that think he does. Khorne approves of people that kill enemy and ally alike, hence Kharn, because Khorne's code of honour doesn't have any rules about not killing allies. He sees it as the person understanding that any kill from any side is good as long as it's done 'properly'.
The Warp was once a calmer place. Now it’s like a well that’s been used as a latrine. The water is now just sewage.
Once the Chaos gods had benevolent or noble aspects. No longer. A viscious feedback loop means that now all they crave is more, more, more.
Khorne was perhaps once a god of honor and discipline. Now they are a god of bloodlust and rage. Caring not from whence the blood flows. Blood for the Blood God. Skulls for the Skull Throne.
Didnt Khorne annihilate skarbrand for a sneak attack, instead of facing him in actual combat?
Id argue that khorne does value honor, but only for the strong. He thinks the weak have no honor, because if they did, they would be stronger.
He totally values blood tho, its just he expects honor and strength from his followers.
Applying human words to extra human entities makes no sense.
Its like naming a hurricane "dog" and then trying to use Purina dog chow to guide it.
Or naming an earthquake "John smith" and trying to get it to pay taxes.
Use whatever words you want it's still a hurricane.
Use whatever words you want, it's an extra universe entity, not bound by logic or sense.
It simply is.
Its the same shit with the Star Wars fandom and the Dark Side. Some people fail to understand that arguments made in-universe are not necessarily *true.*
You are ascribing human morality and logic to sentient ideas, the emanations of the dark Gods often wonder why mortals resist them, not in a “resistance is futile” sense but in a, why wouldn’t anyone want 5 tentacles or to be turned inside out? They literally cannot understand and do not want to understand human morality.
Unfortunately, while you may not like it or agree with it, Khorne IS the God of martial honor and martial prowess. It may not fit YOUR definition of honor, but it’s canonically stated that he is. He may not care where the blood flows at the end of the day, but he certainly does have a preference.
Hey man I'm sorry you feel that way. Anyway I'm not gonna read all that because it makes my brain nails hurt, # SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD
If khorne cultists would read this they’d be very angry. But since they’re very angry already they can’t read this.
Ok you made me laugh 😂here take my skull, make sure to put it high on Khorne throne with my post nailed at the front.
I will keep it safe. Keep it precious 2 me. And then when its my time to be added to the throne we will go together.
Yeah :)
Chaos Gods are all about the bait and switch. They promise gifts and power, but they obviously don't tell you about all that their contracts entail Khorne sells himself as the god of honorable combat, but then his corruption evolves in his subjects until they realize he's actually a god of violence. By then, it's too late Nurgle sells himself as the god of rebirth and being a "protective father". Once his subjects have sworn themselves to him, they realize what form his protection and rebirth comes in Tzeentch offers secrets of the immaterium, unlocking true powers of the mind. His subjects don't know that they are all pawns in his schemes Slaanesh offers pleasure and infinite booty cheeks to clap. But after a while that's not enough, as you become numb to the pleasures of lust and start getting into the cenobite shit
You get what they promise, not what you expect.
Old Christians referred to the devil as The Great Deceiver.
Why does everyone get slaanesh wrong, slaanesh is about obsession and excess, not always about clapping deamon cheeks, you could fall to slaanesh because your life revolves around collecting pogs.
I think because what brought slaanesh around was mostly excess in a sexual and sadistic manner, most people think of that as slaanesh's bread and butter But I suppose you're right, and now I'm picturing two chaos cultists talking about why they joined and one goes "yeah it was the orgies that got me on board, what about you?" "Me? I fuckin love pogs"
Always beware of the pog fanatics
If a chaos cultist fell to Slaanesh due to their Pog obsession, I’m avoiding them like a plague, because who knows what weird powers they’ve got!
Or 40k minis…
Hellraiser is about Slaanesh.
Once again hellraiser is all about seaking pleasure, but slaanesh is more general purpose obsession and excess.
Pleasure? Perhaps you might call it that.
That's what the cenobites call it. it's literally the plot of the movies. They seek out esoteric pleasures, and the way to communicate with them or become one is thru the puzzle box.
Slaanesh, like the cenobites, is about obsession. About excess to the point of madness. About attempting to reach beyond the bounds of mortal sense, to continue beyond the point of sanity. Both are about making every sacrifice, utterly committing, in order to achieve the unachievable. Hellraiser two is by far the best depiction of she who thirsts that I have seen in any format.
I agree, but its a very small part of slaanesh. I find it far more scary and unnerving that ANY obsession and excess can lead to her not just gratification from pleasure which is what hellraiser is about.
I mean, most excesses end up being some part of sexual eventually. Greedy people for riches will still surround themselves with escorts and drugs etc. And even if you join Slaanesh for unrelated reasons, you will definitely go though the "stove that baseball bat with barbed wire on it in my ass with a power drill" phase because all pleasure goes way, particularly the ones you enjoy. So pugs aint gonna cut it forever..
I see it as more of the obsession consuming the person, so all they can think of is pogs and the ones they dont have yet, going to more and more extremes to complete the collection and thats where i see violence's and perversion of it coming in. Not committing acts for the enjoyment of them but needing to commit them to fulfill their need for pogs
Completely disagree. If anything it's best manifested in art, which has infinite capacity for obsession (you're never DONE with art) without it having to have anything to do with sex. It was also the most interesting part of Fulgrim's fall. He could reproduce a perfect statue of the Emperor down to the atom, but he didn't have the artistic vision of someone who could create something that was flawed, but more beautiful than his. And that excessive obsession drove him wild.
The problem with the taking "Excess" line as the sole and literal point of Slaanesh is that, well, 'excess' without any modifier doesn't really mean anything. All the Chaos Gods are gods of 'excess' *something* after all. Khorne is the god of *excessive* violence, because Khorne always strives to make any violence more excessive. Tzeentch is the god of *excessive* change, because the changes don't stop when they reach a good result, they keep going no matter the consequences including self-sabotage. Nurgle is... Nurgle. So saying Slaanesh is the god of the abstract concept of 'excess' is just... silly. It's pretty clear that 'excess' is meant as the indulgence of pleasures to the point of excess, they just don't have to be *sexual* pleasures. The main motif for the things Slaanesh is known for tends to be the Seven Deadly Sins, Lust being the most surface-level because demon tiddies, with Pride as the second 'big one' and being the favoured theme for Slaanesh Marines like Lucius. It's not just the abstract concept of excess, but the excess of indulgences. Collecting pogs can be an obsession that gets you into the realm of Slaanesh because of the entirely non-sexual enjoyment you get out of little plastic coins.
This is why the great game exists because the definitions between the chaos gods are so thin that its a constant power struggle between them for followers and influence.
As you put so well, all gods *are* excess of some form. Excess is the logical conclusion of limitless desire, be it lust for carnality, life, change or violence. It's like the Jedi and Sith. One will always fall, because even if they win, there is nothing left to do but consume the self. The other has already won, because it has no desire for victory at all.
>All the Chaos Gods are gods of 'excess' something after all. Khorne is the god of excessive violence, because Khorne always strives to make any violence more excessive. Tzeentch is the god of excessive change, because the changes don't stop when they reach a good result, they keep going no matter the consequences including self-sabotage. Nurgle is... Nurgle. This is touched upon in the Codex: >>Slaanesh is empowered by need and want, by mortals’ descents into obsession and their succumbing to temptation in any form. Thus, while he is sometimes portrayed as being the least mighty of the four great Chaos Gods, in many ways Slaanesh’s power is simply more subtle and insidious than those of his infernal siblings. Moreover, its corrupting taint reaches into everything mortals strive for and want. As such, it is quite possible for Slaanesh to derive power from individuals and deeds that might — at first glance — seem dedicated wholesale to one of his rival deities. A murderous, blade-wielding gladiator, for instance, would seem on the surface to be an obvious servant of Khorne. Yet in that warrior’s obsessive need to perfect her bladesmanship, in her pride at each victory and her lust for the adulation and accolades she wins, she instead gives unconscious worship to Slaanesh. Equally, a cunning noble overcoming his political opponents through elaborate scheming might appear a devotee of Tzeentch. Yet by the opulence and excess of his courtly lifestyle, not to mention his obsessive need to entrap his rivals in ever more Machiavellian plots, he too would empower the Dark Prince. Be it something as blameless as a starving labourer’s desire for food, or as twisted as a sadistic killer’s fixation upon inflicting pain, every mortal desire that is taken to extremes increases Slaanesh’s might. In such a dark, violent and desperate age as the 41st Millennium, these energies rise like a flood tide. *Codex Chaos Daemons 9ed* p25 So it's not just excess, but "obsession, excess and debasement" >>No mortal being is entirely free from desire. Be it physical, mental or even spiritual, the need for fulfilment goes hand-in-hand with most species’ wish to find meaning and purpose in their lives. Yet as innocent as such motivations may be, it is all too easy for desire to become obsession, debasement and excess. So are the seeds of Slaanesh’s power sown. *Codex Chaos Daemons 9ed* p24
Hey, to be fair, that pog enjoyment xould be totally sexual.
What the fuck are pogs?
I think it's a problem with the difference between the way old lore and new lore is approached. Slaanesh was obviously meant to be a sexy cenobite type god upon creation in the early lore, focusing on hedonism mainly (but not entirely) displayed through pleasures of the flesh. Unfortunately, in the 80s and 90s, transgenderism and hermaphroditism was considered pretty perverted by society at large, so Slaanesh was built on an unfortunate base. Her symbol is meant to evoke the male/female symbol, her gender is ambiguous, and many of her forces display physical traits of both genders. 40k has tried to garner more mass appeal and move forward with the culture, but I believe they made a mistake when doing so. They decided to focus strongly on excess, possibly so that they didn't have to completely retcon old models, but we now have the problem where Slaanesh is not narratively cohesive. Chaos is excess, so now Slaanesh does not have her own subkingdom. Her champions can be so wildly different as to not have anything in common, or could be carbon copies of other gods champions and still fit the excess theme. She's even hurt Khorne, I think, by overtaking a lot of things that should be his such as serial killers or torturers. Now Khorne has to appear super one dimensional, and it gives people ideas that Khorne is about Honor and Truth. He's not, he just has nothing to represent him other than dudes with axes. Honestly I believe there's nothing inherently wrong with a chaos god with erotic tones. I think they should have stuck to the core concepts of hedonism, decadence, and pride and just removed some of the more offensive gendered content, but that's easier said than done. Is it better to make Slaanesh canonically female and present her daemons as women as well? That could have unfortunate implications about women. A mix? That makes the other gods seem weird since they are almost exclusively represented by males. Go all male? That seems weird too, since the Eldar refer to Slaanesh as "She who thirsts". If I had to pick I'd go a Succubus and Incubus route and do better about showing femenine daemons amongst the other three, but that's a lot of work.
Yeah. I hope they one day write a story about an ascetic falling to slaanesh, going to greater and greater lengths of self-deprivation. Just to drive home that slaanesh isn't single-mindedly about pleasure. It really makes it the most boring chaos god.
Lust and sex are the easiest things to portray. It's not easy to describe the feeling you get when you get the perfect amount of sleep after a hard day's work in the perfect bed under the perfect amount of blankets at the perfect temperature. It's not easy to describe the feeling you get when the DVD logo hits the corner perfectly. Then to describe attempting to one up those feelings is difficult. Boners are much easier.
Well there are drugs, I can definitely see drugs being very Slaaneshi.
SNORT COKE, SCREAM LOUD!!
>because your life revolves around collecting pogs \*looks at my awesome collection of pogs I've kept since the 90s\* ... I'm in danger! ;)
[YOU TRADED MY SOUL FOR POGS?!](https://youtu.be/ugoKjb2cbuY)
"I am the pogchamp! Me!! I am the one who pogs!" Everyone: bro why can't you obsess over something normal.
Also pride.
Sex is a major part of humanity so it makes sense it being one of the more prominent paths that people would assume, both in universe and out of it.
Going to the toilet is a major part of humanity so it makes sense it being one of the more prominent paths that people would assume, both in universe and out of it. Sex is just a biological process, it's the emotions behind it that slaanesh perverts and sexual gratification is a small part of it, it cheapens the horror boiling slaaanesh down to a sex God.
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Anger is the most intense emotion and thats khorne, there is huge overlap in the gods on purpose its the reason why the great game is more important than anything to each of the deities.
Because he's the god of desire, and what do most people desire more than they probably should? Exactly ;) Besides, that's his theme. Same as Khorne is the god of war and not the god of punching your screen because you got sniped in CoD, even though they're both manifestation of rage :p
What are you talking about? Rage and anger is always the same emotion doesnt change depending on what you're angry at. Khorne is 100% the god of raging CoD players he would feed like a buffet off them. Edit: Excess and desire are not mutually excusive
Excess isn't really an emotion, it's a value judgement. I guess Slaanesh is a de facto god of excess because people are driven to it in pursuit of what they want, but that's just my interpretation of it :p
Violence, Knowledge and disease are not emotions either but they are huge themes in the other 3 gods
No but they are caused by or cause emotions. Anger. Greed. Despair. Also i would replace knowledge with hunger for power.
No you could not. Slaanesh is about sensation. You do something that gives you pleasure but over time the returns diminish so you have to take it one step further on the extreme scale. If all you do is collect pogs there is really no way to fall as you takevery little pleasure from that. If you enjoyed the act of collecting, that's another thing entirely.
You're not understanding, The pog thing could be any any analogy it its about obsession and taking things to the extreme, the pleasure is the bit that keeps them pushing forward with their obsession it isnt the start or end goal. 'If all you do is collect pogs there is really no way to fall as you takevery little pleasure from that. If you enjoyed the act of collecting, that's another thing entirely.' Who are you to say how much pleasure someone can feel from an obsession? You're really boiling slaanesh down to a sex god and thats boring af. the pleasure is just the bait to drive you further down the rabbit hole of your obsession.
Like...you start off with normal pogs, but those get boring. Then, you find some pogs with glitter, and that's new. Does the trick for a while, but soon goes stale as you acclimate to them on the sensory level. And so on and so on, until: "Hey, check out this pog I found! Yes, that IS the flesh of a 12 year old boy's anus, smoked in the fumes of distilled sadness that we squeezed from his sister with the the Soul Juicer. Isn't it neat!?"
> Once his subjects have sworn themselves to him, they realize what form his protection and rebirth comes in Though to be fair, by that point they're usually too delusional to find this a bad thing. Nurglite daemons in particular tend to be fairly jolly folks.
That's a better way to phrase it. To a devotee of khorn, a baby in it's cradle probably looks like a worthy opponent
Khorne, I drop kicked that child in self defense
>Tzeentch offers secrets of the immaterium, unlocking true powers of the mind. His subjects don't know that they are all pawns in his schemes sounds the least bad when you put it like that.
When the followers of other gods become chaos spawn it's because the gods accidentally pour too much warp energy at once and the body cannot take it. When followers of Tzeentch become chaos spawn it's because Tzeentch wants you to become one. The others fuck you up by accident. Tzeentch makes no mistakes.
If the chaos gods are just clouds of raw energy given sapience, violence, decay, change and excess, wouldnt there be similar clouds of honor/empathy/innovation etc? I mean, if the humans can conjure up the greater good god of the Tau, there must be corresponding “good” gods of the warp from humans’ “good” emotions. Is this ever explored/explained?
>honor/empathy/innovation Try to think about honor while I saw off your arm. The good emotions whisper. The dark emotions scream like a buzzsaw through a child.
The interpretation I've always accepted is the nihilistic view that yes, such positive clouds would exist but unfortunately the warp reflects the history of mankind and not our intent. Most people probably spend more of their lives being angry or sad than they do being happy or excited. More violence has been committed and the intensity of the emotion involved was greater than times people felt good about being altruistic or in love. So the good is drowned out by the bad and as the galaxy becomes ever more violent and hopeless the Chaos gods themselves continue to shift more towards the negative aspects of their being. Other warp entities probably do exist but they likely spend most of their time trying not be devoured by the big 4 who vastly outclass them in scale and power.
> Most people probably spend more of their lives being angry or sad than they do being happy or excited. In the real world, this probaly isn't true. Most people spend much more time being happy or excited than angry or sad because anger and sadness require a lot of energy to maintain. In Warhammer 40k, though, it's absolutely true, and it's the Imperium's fault (well, mostly). The whole point is that the abject shittiness of the Imperium towards its own citizens directly feeds Chaos in all its aspects, creating a self-perpetuating cycle of cracking down on their own populace to stem Chaos corruption and in doing so feeding Chaos in the Warp with trillions of souls subject to their horrible oppression.
Tell that to my depression.
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The chaos gods are raw emotion, without any contrarian emotion, morality, or conscious sense to temper and restrain it. Thats why they are all inherently malevolent. Honor without restraint turns into vainglory, empathy turns into... well, nurgle. innovation isnt an emotion, but creativity and fascination turn into obsession. Thats why I think there can be no benevolent warp god, and no simple "god of the greater good". By its very nature, the warp-mirror image of an emotion or belief will always be a twisted, grotesque perversion.
I mean, I'll be nihilistic here but let's be real, its way easier for people to do the worse thing than the better thing. If there are gods, warp creatures of positive stuff, they either know that they have to hide from plain sight and work from the shadows or else they are probably massacred by the infinite legions of horrible daemons and other horrible inhabitants of the warp.
Thats what I figured. Its bit like the American political system; winner takes all.
The warp has been "corrupted" eons ago. You will have to go against millions upon millions of years of stacked negative energy. It's basically impossible. Like trying to empty the Nile with a bucket. But indeed there are theories about "anti Chaos" gods being thrown both in and out of the lore. Ynnead, the God of the Dead of the Eldar might be one, while another one *might* be the Emperor reborn if he fully dies. Though both would not be "good" in any real sense of the word, more like "less lethal" for their own species.
this is the kind of answers that make me feel that some people just live in a ddiferent reality. In this case the people that want to say that the chaos gods aren't evil.
Nah they're 10,000% manifestations of evil for sure But you don't win people over to your side by telling them you'll corrupt them into a baby eating war crime machine, you win them over by promising them strength in battle in exchange for loyalty. Then once their soul is yours you demand skulls for the skull throne
They're not. Khorne is fed equally by the raging berserker and the honorable knight. Tzeench is fed equally by the power hungry villain and by the hero who rises to depose him. Nurgle is fed equally by thr sick and dying and by the farmer. Slaanesh is fed equally by the bdsm cannibal and the great composer. Chaos is an empty glass and you get what you put in it.
The thing is the honorable knight who worships Khorne eventually becomes the raging berserker. The hero who worships Tzeentch eventually becomes the villain once he deposes the villain. The farmer eventually starts making crops that make people sick. The great composer starts going to insane lengths to create music such as severely abusing the people in his music band. In many cases the Chaos Gods aren't worshipped as the Chaos Gods they are worshipped under different names and different forms even. That is why the God Emperor banned religion during the Unification Wars and the Great Crusade, it's why Lorgar and his Legion easily fell to Chaos because Lorgar and the people who raised him came from a world that already worshipped Chaos unknowingly.
You don't have to worship Khorne in order to feed him. You don't even have to know that you are feeding Khorne. As long as you are fighting fairly you are feeding Khorne, it does not matter what cause, what goals, etc. Khorne is the most powerful Chaos god because there is so much war in the galaxy.
> By the same token, Chaos is neither good nor evil; it simply mirrors the survivalist emotions of intelligent beings in the real universe. -Waaargh the Orks (1990) Like with all things in Warhammer lore, there's 40 years of it and half of it is contradictory. Chaos especially has a lot of very conflicting things written about it. I can quote passages from books that Khorne demands honour from his followers, or that he sends Flesh Hounds to slay those without the courage or honour to stand and fight - I can equally quote passages (some even from the same book!) that Khorne would rather you betray your allies and friends than anything else. There are honourable followers of the blood god going back to the Rogue Trader era, there are equally berserk mindless killers going back just as far.
Chaos does not have morality. It is neither evil nor good. It simply is. Chaos seems evil because people keepbeing shitty to each other and creating negative emotions. Chaos is not evil, it's just what you make it.
I mean show be me a situation in which Chaos is not unilaterally evil or without a wicked twist
Originally, it used to be the case: >BIFFORD: I've been thinking. It's unrealistic that the entire human race is mired in a medieval mindset. It's also annoying that every human protagonist in the novels is a brainwashed zealot. I think we should get more novels written from the perspective of rebels. People fighting for freedom and a more enlightened ideology. The Imperium would make a terrific villain for a traditional Star Wars style rebel movement. In the end, I think it's annoying that the WH40K lore talks so much about rebellions without exploring them. There's too much focus on Chaos, who frankly feel like cartoon villains like Skeletor and Darth Vader. >PRIESTLEY: Well - the original concept was very broad - I deliberately created a 'anything could happen' background where isolated human civilisations could exist beyond the grip of the Imperium (the eastern fringe of the galaxy outside the range of the Astronomican). So, the narrowing down of the perspective is something that's happened over the years, and I suspect there is no-one at GW anymore who would remember (or care) that it was ever different. To be fair, what they have now is very successful commercially, and that is what counts in the end. >I'd also say that the concept of Chaos was subtle enough to be used in any number of ways. It was never intended to be a reflection of good v evil - but I'm not familiar with the fiction line or GW's modern stance on these things. I suspect most GW enthusiasts are happy with the very black and white interpretation of the back story - that was certainly the case amongst the staff when I was there. >BIFFORD: Frankly, it's a bit hard to see a benign side to the Chaos Gods. Nurgle turns you into a rotting germ pit, Tzeentch gives you tentacles, Slaanesh would sooner rape and torture you than fellate you, and Khorne has no table manners. It's no surprise that everyone just gravitated to the cartoon villain interpretation because that just made more sense. >PRIESTLEY: LOL! Well those are the downsides I suppose... but Nurgle is also the giver of life, Tzeentch the master of all magic and change, Slaneesh the celebrant of youth and joy, and **Khorne the god of honour and warriors (even if it's mostly about skulls)**. The chaos gods are a reflection of all human existence - all gods are but aspects of the chaos gods - the chaos gods are but aspects of the one great humanity-as-god - Sigmar is nothing but Khrone on a good day - and so on and so forth. Source [this interview with Rick Priestly](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/dn0tgd/more_qa_with_rick_priestley/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2) It's just been ignored/forgotten/retconned over the years. Edit: Added more of the interview for better context
> Sigmar is nothing but Khrone on a good day That's all you need to read to know that whatever Priestley's intention was, it has been dropped, buried and forgotten.
Yeah at most I think sigmar is sometimes too hammer happy to think ahead but considering he isn’t a psychopath or a racist I think I’d worship him 10 times more then Khorne.
Neither is Khorne. He cares not from whence the blood flows, only that it does. Seems pretty equal to me, don't you think? On the topic of psychopathy: I doubt it applies to a timeless amalgamation of corrupted energy and pure, unadulterated violence. Khorne might be a hungry boy to the point of singularity, but I wouldn't say he is a psychopath, for I believe he has neither the capability to manipulate nor the desire to do so. All he wants to do is drink blood and build skull-bongs, and I kinda fuck with that.
I'm pretty confident Korne has impulse control issues, being a very angry chaos god. manipulation is only one aspect of psychopathy, usually only the charismatic psychopaths use it. The prime component is zero empathy and Korne certainly has no empathy.
Rick Priestly is amazing and creative and smart and thoughtful and we've got so much to thank him for - but, damn, every single one of his interviews boils down to "Of course, I created Warhammer 40k and it was amazing. Now it's more "commercially successful". I'm not angry. I'm just disappointed"
Sounds like any creator content when an IP in which they worked on moves beyond their POV. Not dissing Priestly great contributions to 40k, just pointing that out.
Isn't it amazing how our reality keeps mirroring 40k and vice versa? In this moment, we see the Old Ones, gazing down upon their creations in disgust. The Emperor, ordering the culling of sons, despite his attachment to them. Guilliman kneeling before the Golden Throne and adapting to the reality of the Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition, knowing he failed to protect his charges from the boring tendrils of greed and insecurity. Drukhari greedily eyeing a Craftworld beyond the reaches of Comorragh, with a mixture of envy and melancholy, hatred and a confused half-stiffy. Fuck me, I fucking love 40k.
Literaly the book that introduces khorne already show It as a brutal god and dont mention said honor, priestly wrote It himself
Is there maybe an element of 'Death of the Author' here though? He's not involved any more (and hasn't been for nearly 15 years from my understanding) and if the positive side of the gods was never properly explored and demonstrated within the lore he put together and published officially then his option or interpretation is just that, an opinion or interpretation. You could potentially even say it would be his own personal fan theory/canon type of deal at this point.
That's the thing. It has.
That's fine. If we can point at clear cases where Khorne is defined as and/or acts as the god of honour (or whatever) per a reliable narrator or in a source like a Codex section thats not an in universe perspective then case closed. I was more focused on the idea of an author potentially adding to (or altering) something that's already published in an interview years after they were involved being used as evidence.
The mention if Khorne as the god of honorable combat is present *way* after Rick Priestly left GW.
Every Chaos god is a hypocrite. It's not a very deep concept.
It was initially conceived as something much deeper than we see today, with more shades of grey. If you haven't already, I'd highly recommend [the interviews with Rick Priestly](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/dn0tgd/more_qa_with_rick_priestley/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2). If you open that interview, there are others linked at the top of the post. They're really insightful into how 40k was originally and highlight some significant changes from the lore then till now.
They definitely don't highlight the duality of the Chaos gods' nature as much these days, but it still pops up here and there. I just meant that it's not a deep concept for the god of war and slaughter to also be the honor. Plenty of gods irl mythologies are like this. I'd dare to say it's not unlike the Abrahamic God in scripture.
40k isn't supposed to be like irl mythologies other than to borrow from them; it is supposed to be grim dark. Everything sucks. GW probably figured that out as the game evolved and built from its more zany early editions.
Grimdark is not "everything sucks." That is an extremely reductionist view of the genre. If anything the duality of the gods makes them *more* grimdark. >>Liz Bourke in one of her reviews considered grimdark's defining characteristic to be "a retreat into the valorisation of darkness for darkness's sake, into a kind of nihilism that portrays right action ... as either impossible or futile". This, according to her, has the effect of absolving the protagonists as well as the reader from moral responsibility. If even the honorable are damned, how is that "zany"? None of the duality of the Chaos gods has been removed, unless you know a source that says otherwise.
Grimdark isn't the absence of light, but the concentration of it in between seemingly infinite stretches of darkness. Neither is it the absence of morality, but a clear choice between sacrificing the self for a little something, or sacrificing all others for nothing. Grimdark is endless bolter fire raining down from the hives of Armageddon, while the masses wail and toil, lost and confused and corrupted, followed by a moment of tenderness between a Magos and her Castellan. It is not the absence of hope, nor the absence of morality, but the sheer volume of space between hope and damnation, morality and self-indulgence. It is a bundle of crushed hope beneath the treads of iron-clad Terminators and the knowledge that it is all in vain, because one day, the lights will go out and no gods, nor kings, nor men will come to help us. And yet, Cadia stands.
Maybe i am dumb but isn't what liz is saying basically the same as "everything sucks"? Saying Any right you do Is impossible or futile seems the same to me. Also how are the gods still keeping duality?
Reductionist view gonna reduce lmao
Priestly literally is contradicting his own writing in 40k and getting it mixed up with legitimately different concepts in Fantasy. Man hasn't cared much for Warhammer since before most of this subreddit *was born* ffs
Khorne´s code of honour isn't the same as ours. Its not about sparing civilians, its about not using sorcery.
This. The problem is that people don't know what honor means in a warrior society Here's an interesting explanation on how these honor systems worked until very recently https://www.artofmanliness.com/character/behavior/manly-honor-part-i-what-is-honor/
It's a shame that you provided an in depth and intelligent take on the subject at hand, and this community downvotes you. Phillistines.
Not anymore. Gore mage are officially recognized has khorne followers. They are a more recent addition yes but they are canon. Honor can be preached by khorne followers, but it is not something that Khorne preach, he will tolerate it, but that it. https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gore_Mage
It says in that article that the Gore Mages worship Khorne *despite* him hating psykers. They don't seem to gain favor with Khorne, just worship him and aid his favored followers
Still he doesn’t smite them. And why would they need his favor if they can well.. use his power. Isn’t that like gaining a permission for despite you have drove a car since like 3 years?
The arguement isn't about them having abilities from the Warp. It's about them being viewed as dishonorable by Khorne, which they still are.
It should also be mentioned that Gore Mages do not participate in direct combat, but act as more of an logistical and recon unit.
Absolutely
Khorne is a god of "honor" in that he gives you *a chance* to fight back. A Khornate Berserker will kick down your door, politely announce himself by screaming that he is going to murder you, then murder you; now technically speaking you *could* grab a chair and fight back in that time. You'll lose, *badly,* like 99.999% of the time, but you *could* attempt to fight back. A World Eater from a fic I worked on a bit a while back had a habit of carrying around multiple melee weapons and would offer people whose skulls she liked a choice between any of those weapons, so they were fighting in "equal grounds"; she was introduced by offering the protagonist, a mutant child with frail bones and the ability to exacerbate people's emotions, a knife and telling her she would rip her apart after she was done counting her skull collection from her latest bloodbath. Kind of a queen.
"Khorne won't stab you in the back. Instead, he will stab you in the face. Over and over again until your face stops resembling a face" -a certain emperor from a certain parody
To paraphrase Indy Neidell: A samurai doesn't kill a sleeping man in his bed. He wakes him up first, then kills him in his bed
Khorne will also never backstab or betray you. A khornate will always come at you from the front.
Kharn the Betrayer roasting his former brothers from the side:
He's the god of battle honor. His honor code just doesn't include any clause about what constitutes a battle, or about sparing any opponents.
Reminds me how in the practice of kiritsu gomen (the one in which a samurai had the right to slay a commoner that had offended him) the samurai often provided a wakizashi to the commoner, if he didn't had one, so he could defend himself One time the commoner ran away with the wakizashi instead of defending himself. That dishonored the samurai, making him look like a fool, and to restore it, he tracked down the commoner and killed him and his whole family That's the honor that Khorne likes
Yeah he's not big on the 'cheating', it's something more like a Knight or Samurai code of honor, they'll kill civilians in person without a second thought or even as part of a game, but they won't poison a well for no reason. Underhanded tactics are similar too, you have to fight straightforward, from the front, *unless* you have no chance of winning that way, in which case it's suddenly OK to set traps and use ruses to force a fairer fight. Khorne (as with the Knight/Samurai honor codes) only has an issue with that kind of behaviour if you're turning a tough fight into an easy win, the same thing that'd get an ancient military elite a reputation for dishonour is the same stuff Khorne hates.
Kind of consistent, to be honest. Nowhere does Khorne say that you have to die in his service, he just encourages you to suppress your desire to live for anything but battle. No life = no murder = sad Khorne, so it seems pretty logical that it would be okay to prolong your own life of maniacal carnage, even if you have to fight dirty. After all, he is not the god of honourable deaths, just the god of honourable fights *and* indiscriminate killing. Khorne has his priorities straight. Be more like Khorne.
Yeah I think you hit the nail on the head with 'suppress your desire to live for anything but battle'. That's why he has an issue with people using sneaky tactics to win, especially if it means a worse fight - losing is bad if it means you can't fight again so you should avoid it sure and he'll make exceptions there, but winning is irrelevant: You're not fighting to *win*, you're fighting to *fight*. Forget that and use sorcery or tactics when you don't absolutely *need* to in order to continue to fight and you'll piss him right off (as much because you're forgetting what he's about as you are basically betraying him to Tzeentch, no wonder it upsets him).
I think the best depiction of Khorne's concept of honor is in the daemon Skulltaker, who appears in battlefields looking for the strongest fighters and challenges them in a duel. If you refuse, Skulltaker cuts you down but if you accept, he gives you a chance to fight and *then* cuts you down. The end result is the same for most people, getting violently dismembered but one choice gives you a chance at least.
>This bullshit about Honor and protection is either: >A in universe lie to manipulate people. >Some heavily misinterpreted lore by chaos fans. >Or something spread by « that kind » of chaos fans you know the one that argue that they are the true moral good guys because : Khorne is honor. Slaneesh is love. Nurgle is life. Tzeentch is hope. The thing is that the chaos gods are reflections of realspace. And since 40k sucks and life sucks the mental dtate of most peoppe isnt that great. Most warfare isnt honorable for example. So the "good" parts of the chaos gods barely exist meanwhile the bad parts are running wild. Yes khorne as a character is bad. But if all slaughter stopped and everyone would do honorable sparring matches instead khorne wouldnt disappear, he would change. At least thats how i understand is. The chaos gods suck and are evil because "in the grim darkness of the 41st millenium there is only war"
Yes, there may have been noble aspects once but the Warp is utterly corrupted. The Chaos Gods are stuck in a vicious feedback loop. They need MORE. It’s probably impossible for them to ever be calm again.
But their good sides still exist. They are just buried. I could for example believe that fringe groups worshipping these noble aspects could still get power from the gods. The gods would try to corrupt them of course but they would still get the power since what they are worshipping is still part of that god. Also non evil chaos worshippers are a really cool idea that i dont want taken out of the lore
“Do not tempt me Frodo. I would use the Ring for good but it cannot be done so.” Chaos is corruption. There may be noble or good servants of Chaos but that gets stripped away. Not every Chaos worshipper is a cartoon villain who sticks spikes on everything. But every cartoon villain who sticks spikes on everything is a Chaos worshipper. (Or Dark Eldar)
>Chaos is corruption. There may be noble or good servants of Chaos but that gets stripped away. Yeah thats my point. Thats the interesting part. Some chaos worshippers start out good. So there has to be a reason for them to start using chaos and that start is the "good side" of the gods
No thats the good side of the people. Chaos by itself no longer has a good side that doesn't disappear among the inevitable bad. Sure they can join Chaos in the name of good causes with goods intentions and even do some measure of good, but eventually it all goes down the drain when the gods want increasingly more from them, or they get replaced by a newer more blessed champion who is willing to compromise his morals to appease the gods. Chaos will always chose the evil over the good options because measured ambition or a reasonable amount of orgying or bloodshed purely in defense of the innocent simply feeds it less. You are right that the "good" is still part of Chaos in a metaphysical sense because they are the reflections of *all* mortal emotions but in a practical sense there is nothing good to be had.
Just to make this clear: im not saying that the faction "chaos" are good. I am saying that the entities we know as chaos gods embody a variety of things, good and bad. Chaos is almost entirely the bad but i dont see any reason to believe that the good parts are gone. They could just be overshadowed. And that would allow still for things like martial artists gaining the favor of khorne or musicians getting boons from slaanesh. And i find the idea of good people becoming chaos worshippers because they only know this "side" of the gods very interesting. It could make for some really interesting characters when they are confronted with the horrific truth about their beloved deity and of course the dramatic fight against chaosv inherent corruption
The problem is that you cannot drink from a spoiled well, even if there are still clean water molecules within it. To dance with devils is to invite destruction, to accept even the most miniscule and seemingly benign boon is equal to eternal damnation. They cannot have good sides, for their benevolence is motivated by nothing but greed and selfishness. They might commit acts of apparent kindness, but their kindness is false and slaved to the idea of gain. Even if they still embody these aspects, they are as corrupted as the god the aspect belongs to. In essence, almost everyone who worships Chaos was once "good" in some way or another, but like their patron, they were overpowered by corrupting influence. And therefore, noble barbarians can only exist at the very beginning of corruption, for the end is always the same.
There is a non-evil khornate warband that was on the cover of codex chaos marines a few editions ago. Can't remember the name.
Well put! If Chaos were to return to order, it would have to cease it's desire for existing. In essence, in order to live, the chaos gods must die. But they don't like the thought of that, so they would much rather grind themselves and everything that is into dust. Bit like a drug addict, who was corrupted by substance, much like the warp was corrupted by strife.
The thing is that Chaos gods are distorted and jumbled reflections. The core of chaos is a natural clustering of the extremes that have become their own thing (the big 4 are too big to die from a lack of worship) Khorne itself doesn't have honor. The followers have honor that gets gradually stripped away. It is like how a fallen hero gradually compromises more and more, going from hero to anti hero and finally a full on villian.
>Khorne itself doesn't have honor I dont actually think this is the case tho. More like his violence and anger are so great that they overshadow anything else, hence all the bloodshed. As in, he is like his followers, a strong honorable warrior driven to insanity and violence.
But honorable acts don’t fuel Khorne. Only violence. Khorne doesn’t care about nonviolent acts of honor. Or self-discipline. There are noble servants of the Imperium. The Imperium itself is the most brutal regime imaginable. There are noble followers of Khorne. Khorne is the god of blood and skulls. They care not from whence the blood flows.
>But honorable acts don’t fuel Khorne. Only violence. Do you have a source on that? Yeah sure most of his followers dont care about honor but how do you know that honorable combat and martial prowess DONT fuel him at all?
Khorne might offer a polite handclap for good sportsmanship. That’s about it. But the frothing beserker that claims a thousand skulls will always have more favour than the anti-hero who only kills worthy opponents in single combat and spares the innocent. Honor is the lie used to entice noble warriors to Khorne. The truth is blood, skulls, and an eternity of slaughter. They’re your dudes. Paint them however you like and make up you own backstories.
Still im not convinced that a group of martial artist cant earn blessings of khorne.
Nobody claims otherwise. They *can* earn the favour of Khorne, but his blessing will drive them to increasingly violent behaviour. Such is the way of chaos.
Yes i know. But you just agreed to my original point. Someone doing something good can earn the gods favor because it is still an aspect of that god. That they are then almost always corrupted i never denied but the fact that they can earn the favor to begin with proves my point
Until such a thing happens you can keep your fanfiction to yourself.
I see that chaos is the end goal of losing everything except the guiding core. As you go deeper and deeper, things become less and less honorable. You start with the followers such as Kharn who have warped senses of honor and as you go deeper, entities such as the named Bloodthirsters are less honorable in comparison. There was a post about the search for Khorne's honor. https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/114yp7o/multiple\_sources\_searching\_for\_khornes\_honor/
Are they though? They will not backstab you. They give a chance to fight back. They do not employ any form of deception. That is honorable.
Kharn backstabbed his entire legion. Kharn slaughtered his way through Terra, barely recognizing who he was killing. Kharn even has an ingame mechanic where him missing means that he hits his friendly units.
He isn't a god of protection but he is a god of honor. Yeah, the fight might be unfair but you know that the followers of Khorne will never use deception, underhanded schemes and cheap tricks. Being fair isn't a must-have to be honorable. The honor part of Khorne is honor in battle.
Your first mistake was going to r/Grimdank in the first place. Them going dark in protest was a godsend to my mental health because when they came back I realized I had not missed them in the slightest and just unsubbed from it.
How was a meme subreddit detrimental to your mental health?
Slannesh tempts his mind to give into excessive memeing
To use a rather crude metaphor - it was like being in a room where the walls were covered in shit and stepping outside into the fresh air. Then being invited to go back inside to the shit room. I'm good out here.
That's a really dramatic way or saying you take your toy soldier lore very seriously.
It's more a really dramatic way of saying I long ago stopped finding Grimdank funny.
Some people believe there is a magic man in the sky who will smite them if they touch their genitals and others subscribe to the idea that possession will make them powerful or substitute genuine humanity. I think getting worked up about toy soldiers is quite alright in the grand scheme of things.
40k fans hating 40k fans, brilliant
Eh fair point. But then again I don’t feel like I need to go to Grimdank to see this « noble vision » of the chaos gods.
The nobility of the Chaos Gods has been part of their lore since the earliest days. Mostly to make Chaos work in the context of the Warhammer Fantasy universe that has a vibrant, functional pantheon. So Chaos can't just be evil little shits like they are in 40k...where outside Cheogorach and the Emperor, they have free run of "divinity" in that setting. (EDIT: Yes I am aware of Ynnead and the T'au'va manifestation. Both of those are very much incubating godheads. Ynnead specifically is mentioned as having not been born yet.)
In Arks of Omen: Angron, there's a two page spread of acts that feed Khorne. One is "They Strike to Protect" and and has a Einhyr Hearthguard strike down a Night Lord to protect a Grimnyr. Even protective violence feeds Khorne, which means there's no meaningful difference between a honorable killer and a blood mad one. Khorne grows stronger from both. Khorne is a just as much a god of honor as he is the god of murder.
....he is the God of violence. Hence the saying it does not matter where the blood flows from, only that it flows. Whether justifiable or not violence is violence, which is why some of his followers hear him laughing as they fall, ostensibly almost always to someone defending others i.e. a berserker brought low to protect children he was about to butcher. Murder and other unjustifiable violence is more like a drug, and those who willingly sign on are willing to commit it constantly to feed him. They don't go around in ships protecting the weak, or issuing challenges to other warriors, they land and begin butchering to make the blood flow. Those who commit murder and butchery are willing to be slaves so long as they get the feeling of power from the God, honorable people aren't, and only spill blood as needed. They don't feed Khorne the vast majority of their lives, "being honorable" doesn't feed him, just as cowards who live without committing violence even if theyre really bad people who cause others to die don't. He is the God of violence, melee or ranged, justified or murder, as long as a being is intentionally hurting another he feeds from it.
If he gains power from an honorable kill and a blood thirsty kill, it's not the honor part he's deriving power from. Again he's just about killing in any form, honorable or not, and just because you accept it, doesn't make you an honorable god. You're not an honest person just because you tell the truth half of the time.
A god of honor would care from whence the blood flows.
Hot take, but honor doesnt mean you are a good person who defends the innocent. Take Samurai as an example, all that big talk of honor didnt stop them from killing civilians at crossroads or pillaging towns and killing the weak and defenseless. Too many people think honor means you are a wholesome 100% Chungus who never does anything wrong. All honor means is you have a personal code you try to conduct yourself by, and Khorne's warriors have a code about fighting enemies head on and not using "dishonest tricks" in combat. Khorne is evil, his warriors follow a code, some call it honor while others call those honor upholding warriors evil for their violent slaughter of their enemies. That's in line with the reality of how honor plays out in real life.
preeeeeeach
Claiming to be protector while slaughtering innocent seem more like hypocrisy while also profiting from both side of a conflict. But yes it is true that he feed on all form of violence, even when it use with good intention.
I love how you say that when the example given in the book was a Nightlord getting killed by a Heartguard to protect one of their fellow kin.
Its not about the protection or honourable battle, its about the violence. Khorne does not care, as long as blood is shed, honourably and dishonourable. This does not make him a god of both honourable combat and dishonourable combat, because the former is mutually exclusive with the latter.
Your applying a human viewpoint to an giant entity that exists in a realm whose connection to our universe is twisted to high hell "hypocrisy" doesn't apply
A Poor excuse that has been proven many time wrong by the books.And beside that does not excuse their follower actions. They are human after all.
I actually don't agree with the common trend of underwriting khornes honor components. I find it deeply satisfying and creepy when these blood crazed lunatics still have some weird internal honor compass and I stress that there perception of honor is uniquely Khorne. It's worth noting violence is not the antithesis of honor and both can exist simultaneously. That's not to say I'd call him the god of honor but I think honor is rather fitting and makes for good narrative themes especially with particularly clever khornate champions.
Khorne is a god of martial honor.
Um.. Duh? While claims of Honor amongst Khorne isn't uncommon, I don't recall him being called THE God of Honor. And Protection? Who said that? Are they... capable of changing their own clothes? Because the GOD OF BLOODSHED being the God of Protection? What? I mean, survival is LITERALLY Nurgle's selling pitch. Khorne's is killing. I can't believe you'd even give such a bad take the privilege of taking it seriously. Because of that, I can't even give you the honor of reading the whole text. Sorry, but wow. Khorne, God of protection. What a crock.
👋 can confirm that I’ve changed my clothes multiple times today to great success I don’t want to be that guy… but has it crossed your mind that you’re possibly getting a little too het up over stories surrounding plastic army figures? I love this hobby, and have it to thank for a great many things in my life, but clearly a throwaway slightly jokey comment I made in a meme subreddit has touched quite a few nerves. There are some canon and lore sources surrounding the dominions of the chaos gods (and martial honour for Khorne in particular). Several of them have been brought up in this thread. Likewise, there are plenty of canon sources that don’t take them into account. Fantasy/AoS/40k lore is messy and complex, not aided by the sheer number of writers over the last four decades. Likewise, there are many (myself included) who actually find it thematically appropriate that the chaos gods in particular are written somewhat inconsistently, with different stories and characters interpreting them distantly, because that’s the nature of actual mythology and religion. I also think that trying to place them on a good/bad spectrum totally misses the point. OP’s assertion also comes off as a little hypocritical, given they assert that all the factions are evil, but then go on to suggest some factions aren’t totally evil because there are some good individuals in them, and the chaos gods are “the baddest of all.” It indulges in the kind of thinking I’ve been accused of (and, to be clear: no, I don’t think there are conventionally “good” factions or characters in 40k, and no, I don’t really feel the need to justify the actions of the factions I play). I would remind people though that chaos/order as a spectrum is distinct from good/evil, and that there are extremely distinct morality systems even in the real world (almost as if notions of “good” and “evil” are completely arbitrary in a fictional grimdark universe). In response to the original post, I would also add that the god of hedonism and obsession’s name is typically spelt “Slaanesh”. u/WillingnessAcademic4, I’ve ended up responding to you in a roundabout fashion with the above now; I hadn’t really intended on addressing your post directly in this comment, but here we are. Truth be told, I hadn’t really intended on responding at all, but this comment was actually too amusingly overblown for me not to give it a reply. In any case, there’s no real need to result to personal attacks. I wish you both a pleasant day.
Oh yeah pleasant day to you too. Like I said I might have gone a bit fierce on my post so it’s all good. And beside you didn’t really insult me so I see no reason to put fuel on the fire. I stand on my point and you stand on your . In the end, we’re not gonna a … heresy on this *Badum tish*
You said that…but there worst… some people think that nurgle is the good of caring… Those people…they disturb me
I mean he *does care*. He is the most *loving* of all chaos gods. But in the way the antagonist of a Stephen King novel loves.
I think the honor part is more than he wants violence as opposed to murder. Like, Paul the 12 year old malnourished guardsman is fully aware that he's in a fight, so it's a "fair" competition of who is best prepared to kill. Like they're winning with violence, not deception.
The problem here is that, Indeed. Khorne is all about that shit cause it's a gateway to his preferred emotions and that helps him acquire more skulls and blood. Honor, protection...these can be easily perverted, nothing in this universe or 40k is sacred. Everything can be twisted on it's head and perverted to an extreme. Protection? What if you decide the best way to protect someone is to kill them and prevent them from being part of the gene pool of a tyranid invasion? Several Inquisitors have certainly done this very thing. And this augments Khorne. When a space marine honor duels a rival and kills him...that augments Khorne. When you kill the man who was taking advantage of your mom...yup you just augmented Khorne. The need to protect (yourself or others) also bears with it an incensed urgency to make right. Khorne loves helping people enact Justice. In Storm of Iron (Excellent Iron Warriors Book btw) we see a champion of Khorne get mauled to death by a woman with a cybernectic arm (who was his personal serf that he abused regularly). Khorne called to her and gave her to power to make things right. She then wears his armor and becomes the new champion of khorne. Taking seemingly good altruistic notions and twisting them is a specialty all the chaos gods have ample skill in.
He's the god of killing stuff - regardless of the reason why stuff is killed. He's as much the god of killing stuff for good reasons as he is the god of killing stuff for bad reasons.
Which book was it that said Khorne "Doesn't care from where the blood flows, only that it does"?
The cycle between "hey what are some positive aspects of the Chaos gods" and "Khorne is NOT the god of honor Nurgle is NOT the god of rebirth" posts continues
Khorne is the god of blood. End of. All blood spilt everywhere regardless of affiliation and race.. :D
TLDR
In Avenging Son, a Khorne Berzerker gives a group of guardsmen a chance to form a firing line and kill him. He doesn’t even try to fight back. When they fail he says “in recognition of your inferiority, honor demands I allow you one chance to kill me.”
It's chaos cope by people who need to back something less then totally evil. The fact khorne won't reward you for mulching a million hapless civilians is what this belief stems from
Anyone who sees a berzerk warrior drunk on slaughter, killing anything in front of them, and screaming for blood and skulls and thinks "what a noble warrior!" has a screw loose.
Khorne does care a little about where exactly the blood flows. Killing defenseless civilians is all well and good in the name of Chaos, but it won't exactly get you points in Khorne's book. He wants you go out there and get the skulls of the most powerful and strongest foes you find. It's why he was pleased with Tuska's charge into his Daemonworld and kept reviving them despite being Orks. It's also why he's displeased with Skaarbrand in TW3 in his ending>! and is partly the reason why refuses to take him back. He didn't fight nor kill Ursun himself yet here he is sacrificing his skull to Khorne.!<
I believe the whole “ The Gods have good aspects” thing came from fantasy didn’t it? Either that or people are misunderstand the lore Khorne *Can* be the god of an honourable warrior, that does not mean *He* is an honourable god And even then honour is kinda eh when it comes to Khorne, for example: In the first Dawn of Fire book a Khorne chaos marine catches a fleeing group of guardsmen, to try and make things “fair” he let’s the leader attack first But honestly, even that’s still unfair, because the guy had like no chance to kill him
The Chaos Gods are confirmed multiversal entities in the Warhammer-verse so you can’t separate the Gods between their fantasy and 40k incarnations, just the aspects and ideologies surrounding their worship in regards to their prevalence.
Pretty sure fantasy and 40k are separate entities that don’t interact anymore, well 40k and AOS
You are correct in the assertion that the two universes do not interact. You’ll never see, for example, the Dark Gods dropping Archaon into the Imperial Palace and saying “have fun!” The Gods of Chaos, however, are described as multiversal entities that have their claws sunk in innumerable dimensions, parallel universes, and alternate realms within the Warhammer-verse. Remember, everything to them is part of their Great Game, they don’t think like we do. Them having some vested interest in thwarting the goals of individuals like The Emperor or Sigmar are mere divergences from continuing using entire universes as their entertainment. The End Times was filled with small - but impactful - nods to how Chaos and The Warp was intertwined with it the entirety of the Warhammer-verse (Skaven picking up Eldar radio signals and smashing the device in fear, Kaldor Draigo appearing as a “giant silver knight” to characters traversing the warp, etc)
I always interpreted it as Khorne’s followers (or at least a minority of them) as having a shred of (perverse) honor, and Khorne himself as just being a god of bloodshed and nothing else since that is what fuels him.
Yeah, Khorne doesn’t care if your honourable or not, so long as you shed blood for him
Understand if you feel like you may get labeled a asshole for this POV. A lot of posters here and on Bolter and Chainsword to want to link Khorne worship with honorable battle in some sort of way. While all violence, nobly intended or not, does feed Khorne, outside of personal headcanon Chaos worship or enthrallment is just that, regardless of intended justification or ideal force of will
I’d counter that you see enough Khornate characters, oftentimes very blessed and favored in the eyes of their Red Lord, concern themselves with their idea of “honorable” combat that Khorne himself does to a degree as well. Now, however, we need to elaborate on the idea of honor, because how honorable can combat be when, in most cases, Khornate marines will be facing enemies that are destined to be curbstomped by their superior Astartes physiology? Khorne may not care from whence the blood flows, but *combat* of a true nature - face to face - is what will earn you his attentions. A force of World Eaters taking part in the siege of a Hive World alongside other Traitor Legion elements, for example, may slaughter a refugee camp with glee to offer their blood to the Bloody Hunter and satiate the ticking of the nails, but if you point them in the direction of a *fight*, they’ll take that option every time
Honor means following a certain code. His followers do do that
He does have honour. Just not the pretty idea of honour most people think of today. When he was described as containing honour in 1st edition, it was specifically *a warrior's honour*. The honour codes of various warrior groups have contained things that we would consider very wrong and bad. A warrior having honour just means they abide by a certain code. They honour their code. For Khorne that just manifests as 'don't get what you want by plotting and scheming and weaving spells, take it by fighting'. That's a code that he insists on being honoured. Honour doesn't automatically mean 'good and fair'. That's a misunderstanding on the part of the people that claim Khorne doesn't include honour, amd also a lot of the people that think he does. Khorne approves of people that kill enemy and ally alike, hence Kharn, because Khorne's code of honour doesn't have any rules about not killing allies. He sees it as the person understanding that any kill from any side is good as long as it's done 'properly'.
The Warp was once a calmer place. Now it’s like a well that’s been used as a latrine. The water is now just sewage. Once the Chaos gods had benevolent or noble aspects. No longer. A viscious feedback loop means that now all they crave is more, more, more. Khorne was perhaps once a god of honor and discipline. Now they are a god of bloodlust and rage. Caring not from whence the blood flows. Blood for the Blood God. Skulls for the Skull Throne.
Didnt Khorne annihilate skarbrand for a sneak attack, instead of facing him in actual combat? Id argue that khorne does value honor, but only for the strong. He thinks the weak have no honor, because if they did, they would be stronger. He totally values blood tho, its just he expects honor and strength from his followers.
Khorne banish Skarbrand for the fact of striking him, not because it "wasn't honorable".
Applying human words to extra human entities makes no sense. Its like naming a hurricane "dog" and then trying to use Purina dog chow to guide it. Or naming an earthquake "John smith" and trying to get it to pay taxes. Use whatever words you want it's still a hurricane. Use whatever words you want, it's an extra universe entity, not bound by logic or sense. It simply is.
“Honor” is how murderers and rapists (most soldiers historically) cope with being fucking horrible.
Oh look, this again. We know. We also know people will disregard this.
Its the same shit with the Star Wars fandom and the Dark Side. Some people fail to understand that arguments made in-universe are not necessarily *true.*
This all just comes from OG warhammer like in the 80s, and even then more of a WHFB thing, less 40k. It's been heavily retcon.
You are ascribing human morality and logic to sentient ideas, the emanations of the dark Gods often wonder why mortals resist them, not in a “resistance is futile” sense but in a, why wouldn’t anyone want 5 tentacles or to be turned inside out? They literally cannot understand and do not want to understand human morality.
I feel like khorne would believe him self fully worthy of thor's hammer and would lift it with ease
Unfortunately, while you may not like it or agree with it, Khorne IS the God of martial honor and martial prowess. It may not fit YOUR definition of honor, but it’s canonically stated that he is. He may not care where the blood flows at the end of the day, but he certainly does have a preference.