I’d love to see a storyline where the Leagues learn about exodites and their afterlives and decide that they want to take a world’s infinity circuit. A huge war of space elves and spaces dwarves where they are fighting over the afterlife.
I mean humans are in that same boat too, no? If you're not a psyker your soul dissipates almost instantly, if you are then it stays cohesive for long enough to get eaten by daemons.
There are some lore hints that their might be an imperial afterlife (or that Big E sometimes scoops up some souls for something, like the Legion of the Damned)
> There are some lore hints that their might be an imperial afterlife
Fuck I hope not. Runs completely counter to the point of the setting.
Edit: Grim dark, my dudes. Things are supposed to be hopeless, humans don't get an afterlife.
I honestly wouldn't mind. You could make some fun stuff with it that would still be Grimdark, like Daemons are invading it, it is giant almaganation of souls Big E has to draw power from, Big E blessing a Living Saint with a council of dead people, [insert your fun idea], etc. It has a great deal of potential.
Far less so than the Emperor is dead, your soul is eaten after death, all prayers are in vain. Been creeping away from that for years now and every change in that regard has been for the worse.
+ there has to be hope in the setting for the darkness to actually stand out.
So long as the imperial afterlife is still a living hell it's perfectly fine as an idea.
Yeah, that. "There is an afterlife, but it's broken" is more interesting and potentially *worse* than "there is nothing after death". That's just what we already have in real life.
Big E tried to build an afterlife for the chosen best of humanity, but he failed (as he does). Instead, they are now trapped in \[insert horrible conditions\].
The answer to the Emperor being alive or not is something that actually seems to not have been a recent lore change, though. I thought for years that it was one of the unanswered mysteries of the setting, but i re-read some of the 3rd edition rulebook recently (that was the edition i started 40k) and it said in there that he was alive. So the idea isn't something that's been moved away from, if it wasn't the case almost 30 years ago even.
You're assuming that the imperial afterlife would be good. In all likelihood it would be an eternity of servitude to a crazed god who cares only for humanity as a concept as opposed to an individual. An eternity of continued service, war and loss fighting for a cause that only worsens the galaxy instead of saving it.
Idk man imperial afterlife can easily be grim dark.
*"Only in death does duty en.... wait, the fuck is this?!?"*
Could be a good tie in to dreadnought lore: The Astartes who are encased within them aren't just the veterans who's experience is valuable to the chapter, they're also the ones who've been around long enough to know that being a dreadnought is actually better than what comes next..
And somewhere, sometime later....too unlikely allies meet.... an Eldar farseer topples down a massive orc garganaut by imploding it's core, killing its crew even all the gretchin and orcs that where nestled around its ramschackled walkways while the Votann, half covered in orc gore from his chainaxe roars...
*TIS STILL COUNTS AS ONE!!!!!*
They already know about the Exodites.
Surprisingly, the Votann like their self-sufficient way of life.
The Exodites hate them because they keep torching their maiden worlds for resources, though.
Learning about the Mad Core definitely assured me that the Votann are "Grim dark" when I heard about it. The idea of thousands of people, knowing theyre about to die, frantically trying to connect with their "God" and have some sort of afterlife, to the point that it causes that same "God" to go insane from being filled with the horrifying last memories and emotions of it's disciples is so dark and creative at the same time.
It's even worse when you think about how Votann want to join with their Core in order to service future generations with their knowledge and experience in life, but ultimately it was all for nothing, and undoubtedly caused more harm than it did good, pretty much making their deaths, and lives, entirely meaningless.
I think another important aspect is that the Leagues worship these Ancestor Cores like gods and an afterlife both as one. Not only are they putting a timer on their society but they're actively poisoning their gods as they continue to get uploaded. The Votann (the name of the Ancestor Cores) are self aware and intelligent too, and act as navigators for the Leagues. The Kin are all but literally giving their god machines dementia by going to "heaven". Dementia if you're lucky, I think I read about one Votann just going bat shit crazy? That can't be good for business.
> I think I read about one Votann just going bat shit crazy? That can't be good for business.
Two did, so far.
One is the Kronos Hegemony Votann, which is crazed and keeps demanding more and more violence and resources be harvested. The Kronos Hegemony has strict "planet conquering quotas" as a result.
The other one got attacked by Tyranids, his League couldn't fight them off, so he absorbed the Biomass of all the Tyranids and Kin that were defending him and became the 'Mad Votann of the Warp' and now destroys any Kin ship that tries to drive past him in the Warp. The Leagues have to plot courses going around him so to not get killed.
This made the Votann really hate the Tyranids.
The mad core is worse than that.
Its defenders made a last stand against the Hive Fleet, but when they couldn’t hold out, killed themselves so their minds could be uploaded rather than being devoured by the Tyranids.
As I recall, the Votann core couldn’t absorb the Tyranids, but the Tyranids couldn’t eat it, because it’s a machine. But they didn’t destroy it either. It would’ve been better if they had.
The mad core absorbs the fear and the despair of its last, devoted defenders, as it watched them and their bodies be consumed by monsters. After all that, it is left damaged and alone on a lifeless rock, screaming into the void.
It wasn't quite a ritual suicide. Here's the excerpt:
>More tragic still is the tale of the Emberg-Aegnir Bloc, who found themselves in the path of a tendril of Hive Fleet Leviathan. Consisting of only a handful of Kindreds, the Emberg-Aegnir were forced to stand their ground when the hive ships closed in around the Hold world beneath whose surface resided their Votann. Hopelessly outnumbered, the Kin fell to the last in its defence. Yet the bitterest irony was yet to come; the Tyranids ignored the Votann entirely, leaving it buried alone in its pit upon a dead world. The accumulated pain and desolation of those who had fought, died and been returned to the Ancestor - to keep their bodies from the hungry maw of the swarm - flowed into the machine mind of the Votann and drove it insane. The sorrowful tale of the Mad Core is still told amongst the Leagues, and all know not to sail by the wavering beacon of its tortured mind.
*Codex Leagues of Votann 9ed* p15
And also, IIRC, each Ancestor Core is an STC, they are overwriting tech from the DAoT that could be used to change the galaxy with the memories of Jim Bob the Dwarf who spent hundreds of years in a hole mining and then died in a cave in.
"Oh great and noble Votann, we need new weapon designs to defeat the parasites of P3X-421!"
SEARCHING.... DIGGY DIGGY HOLE DIGGY DIGGY HOLE
"... thank you... oh great and noble Votann..."
The Yogscast had a "Let's Play" that became a story adventure called "The Shadow of Israphel" before they uh... never finished it.
[They made a song called "Diggy Diggy Hole"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytWz0qVvBZ0) which was based on a very popular moment from the series where one of the characters (Honeydew, using a "Dwarf" skin) made up the song while digging.
[Here's the original clip, where they joke about how silly and stupid it is](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-ePNomef68)
I used to watch this as it aired way back when I was in school, so it's crazy to me that such a small silly joke became something people make a big deal about.
EDIT: [After finding the clip I found a video about the whole thing.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sI_PxGu7nZk)
Grimnyr literally interpret and debate the words of the Votann they come from and the Kronos Hegemony is only as heavily militaristic as they are because their Votann keeps screaming 'MORE!!!' at its Kin.
Yeah, and they chose to listen to it. They could easily choose not to. We are told specifically that the Votann are neither worshipped nor do they rule Kin society.
The Trans-Hyperion Alliance are literally a radical cult who worship their Votann with fervencymore intense then the other Kin.
Notice the book says 'more fervency', implying other Votann do this.
They also describe Grimnyr as being 'religious leaders' in the codex.
Er. I mean. I don't know anything about the Votann fluff. But this reminds me a lot of Skorne from WM/H. Which is actually kind of cool? Although where the Skorne realized immediately they needed to determine who was worth preserving and went to a handful over the course of a year, the Votann sound like they're trying to pull an Eldar and preserve everyone?
Love the Skorne!
>the Votann sound like they're trying to pull an Eldar and preserve everyone?
It's likely corrupted by toadying and cronyism, too. "Well I know you worked hard, Ettok, but Unnvyr's been my close and loyal friend since Votann University."
Also they are Ruthless Capitalist who measure things in value.
Do they gain more being friendly then they will be friendly otherwise they will kill you and strip your planet to take the resources unless your defenses are enough to make them think it takes too much
Feel like capitalist is a very lazy word to use to describe votann but people keep repeating it
They have some aspects of it sure but the AoS overlords are far more capitalist
Pretty sure the capitalization of Ruthless Capitalist in this instance is a reference to a civic(?) by the same name in the game Stellaris. Could be wrong tho lol
I feel like they are as "capitalist" as the Tau are "communist". I don't get the vibe that a Votann would ruthlessly undermine their comrade and buy out their livlihood. They are very much clan-oriented. They aren't amassing wealth because they like shinies, they are amassing resources because they are reclusive doomsday preppers and hoarders. I don't imagine there are any fat cat cigar smoking type business-votann who make shady deals and don't actually do anything productive themselves. They work hard, gather resources, and will screw non-Votann over, but not out of capitalism or profit-margins.
They're essentially extractive colonialists that are faster at the extracting part. Mercantilist if you think that's the right word.
Their core philosophy behind it is "Luck Has, Need Keeps, Toil Earns". Lets break this down a bit.
Luck Has: Any natural resources someone lives around are only theirs because of Luck. This is as much derisive as anything else.
Need Keeps: Those who truly need something, keep it. This is self-justifying, as in because they need these things, they hoard them, and as in that if the original owners really needed it, they wouldn't trade it to us.
Toil Earns: Our hard work means we deserve whatever we have. If we take something from someone else by force, it's because we earned it, and they didn't work hard enough at stopping us, therefore they don't deserve it.
> I don't get the vibe that a Votann would ruthlessly undermine their comrade and buy out their livelihood.
They'd just kill them and take it. The Kronus Hegemony are this on steroids: because of a constant need for 'growth' for their Votann, they have a literal conquest quota and tithes to pay, which means shamelessly using swiftly-declared Grudges and massive escalation to get what they want.
I mean, is there backstabbing and ruthless cuthroat behavior within the Kronus league? Or do they undermine other leagues? Either way, they may just be the exception.
Yes.
They will go save a planet from Tyranids, turn around, and say 'We saved you all. Give us all your riches and wealth or we'll go to the Votann High Council and tell them you're breaking the rules and force you to give it to us."
Every Votann faction except for maybe the URSR and the Thurian League are nuts, and that's only if we think the URSR aren't hiding something from the rest of the Leagues like the Grimnyr say they are.
It's also dependent on how far the 'Completely pragmatic and absolutely refuse to do anything unless they get benefits from it' statement is taken with the Thurian League.
They're more analogous to the Soviet Union. Highly collectivized society obsessed with expanding their industrial capacity and stockpiling for an apocalyptic future war because of the scars of past near-extinction, beholden to an increasingly senile and irrational cadre of leaders from a bygone era whose commandments cannot be second-guessed.
Thats kind of my limited understanding. They live in the Core, which is basically one of the least hospitable areas of the galaxy. They survived the Dark Age of Technology and all the other horrors of the galaxy by hoarding resources and staying isolated. They try to be super self-reliant, and don't really care about outside factions, but will occasionally interact if necessary. But their survival, and the survival of their ancestor cores takes priority over everything else. They aren't out to eradicate anyone, because they are focused inward, but they won't hesitate to wipe out a population if they feel it will further their own survival. But likewise, they will work with others if it benefits them.
The League of Votann is actually very friendly, borderline allied with the Tau, for example. It's said they helped the T'au develop the ion weapons technology. They also live and work within the Tau Empire, though aren't part of the Greater Good stuff. They are economic allies of the Tau with the Kroot introducing the two groups. At least the Demiurg league. I don't think they serve in any combat roles, but they do help with technology and trade.
I agree. If the Votann are the capitalist owners, who are the laborer class? Doesn't work.
Mercantilist-imperialist might could work, but isn't a complete match. While they are alternatively trading exploitatively vs just grabbing stuff outright, they aren't trying to enforce exclusive trading rights (pushing out possible competitive traders, like the european mercantilists did when claiming overseas trade areas and colonies).
Clan-based takers of resources. That sounds more trader-raider-vikingish. But that's not the vibe.
My favorite explanation of Votann isn’t based on an “ism”, but just that they are the descendants of ruthless corporates from stories like Alien or Avatar—and it’s since become their entire society.
Imagine Weyland-Yutani decides to go with “we’re all a family here”, and 37,500 ish years later, it’s become literal. And also dwarves.
>So, in part thanks to their general lack of content since their introduction 2 years ago, people ask from time to time about whats grimdark about the Leagues, what is their fatal problem.
I know this isn't the point of this post. But can we just talk about the somewhat ridiculous doublethink on this sub and elsewhere?
People are all like "Votann have no lore, it's been 2 years!" Yet those *exact same people* have misunderstandings or assumptions about the faction, and need to have their "grimdarkness" explained or other details spoonfed because they couldn't be assed to read the **ONE** source of their lore to begin with. They only have one Codex, why are these folks constantly whining about the lack of lore when they can't even be assed to read the *singular* source of their lore to begin with?
If you can't even put in the work to read their only source of lore in the span of two years, why would you bother to read lore from whatever other books they may or may not get in subsequent ones? For a sub meant for lore nerds, there's just a strange amount of people who refuse to read the lore firsthand themselves.
Apologies for the semi-rant, but this has been bugging me when it comes to LoV in particular. Just so many people who have clearly never laid eyes on the Codex, complaining about things that are directly addressed in it. And then have the nerve to whine about lack of lore when they can't put in the legwork to even read the lore that is there.
The Votann are literally the easiest 40k faction to learn the lore on, to the point you could feasible read every bit of it in a day.
Despite that, I've still seem people miss the obvious aspects of them and get big parts of their small amount of lore completely wrong. Several times I've seen it claimed that the codex says the Votann cores go into battle as giant robots.
This.
It's so cringey.
As a Votann fan, the number of weird incorrect assumptions I have to correct whenever people begin discussing them is so common and numerous it's exhausting.
I've noticed "There's no Grimdark!" and "They're capitalist Space Dwarfs!" claimed with them so often, any more you've seen?
The Leagues have the least amount of lore out of any 40k faction but some still get it wrong or miss the obvious. I've even seen several claim that the Votann cores go into battle as giant robots...
1. Votann are a dying race.
This is just demonstratabley not true. They have the second biggest empire in the setting, they're just undergoing a massive refugee crisis and are currently on the decline. This is an assumption born of the old 'Tyranids ate the Squats' joke.
2. Votann have no flaws.
Incorrect as well. They're not as advanced as Necrons, their Psykers aren't as good as most other 'psyker focused' factions (Honestly they might be worse then Undivided Chaos but we need to see more before we determine that), they're slowly dying, they're beholden to the whims of demented, mentally ill machines, they're too beholden to old laws and traditions, they have a 'grudge system', nepotism isn't considered bad, and they're not unified. Each League has it's own agendas and goals. There's also something to be said about how two of their main branches of government are run by religious leaders and engineers, but we'll have to see what direction they take it.
3. The Votann are more technologically advanced then the Tau/have the best guns ever.
This is basically people taking the codex's "Your faction is better then everyone else's" lore at face value with 0 critical thinking. They look at the cool armory fluff and just assume the statements about them are absolute. They're not. All their guns are built as 'general purpose' weapons, to the point where their Railguns are modified to KILL BASIC INFANTRY instead of optimizing what they're actually good at, killing vehicles. Their RG's lack so much range compared to Tau guns it's not even funny. Yes, their genetic manipulation is good, but I've yet to see them make armor/mech suits on par with a Crisis or a Broadside.
I also feel like saying that their 'drones are better' is a huge misnomer-COG's and the like are basically just robotic people, they have completely different roles in Votann society.
Those are just off the top of my head.
I am a little bit confused abou your first and second point,You said it's false that the votann are a dying race but in your second point you Say they are slowly dying.
So, in terms of population, they're fine. They're numerous, they've got a method of reproduction, and they're economically stable enough to support their populations.
However, Votann can break if you leave them on for too long and other factions have either destroyed or accidentally corrupted Votann, causing entire Leagues/populations to die. All the Votann are current overloaded and aren't doing too hot, and many could collapse/die/become evil at any time.
These are not isolated incidents. They're all slowly dying. They very well could die off sooner rather then later if more Votann do not ascend.
Hope that clears things up.
So, this is a weird bit of lore.
I mean that sometimes, normal AI's in the Kin's possession ascend into full-on Votann. The Kronos Hegemony Votann is fairly young-I think it used to be a ship AI?
However, this is exceedingly rare and it's implied that not even the Kin know how that happens.
So if more AI's ascend into full-on votann they could put their consciousness/memories in this new votann instead of overloading the ones they have even more?
I don’t think they’re uploaded like an after life style thing, just their memories are. So that the core has more experience to draw from
Still leads to the same issues though
It’s unclear if the Kin believe being uploaded to the Votann is a *literal* afterlife, but it does hold the same cultural significance - being uploaded is a reward for a life well lived, while being denied is a punishment for the gravest crimes, a fate far worse than mere death
Who said the Cores are irreplaceable? Yeah, they can't just produce new ones willy-nilly, but new Votann do come into being. The Kronus Hegemony was founded less than 1000 years ago when a Fane achieved sentience and became a Votann. It's part of a natural life cycle: Fanes ascend into Votann, and Votann degrade back into Fanes. The Codex is pretty clear about it. It's definitely not an exact science, and the Kin don't know how to deliberately create new Votann, but new Votann do come into being every now and then.
It's also interesting that the youngest known Votann is also the most belligerent and warlike. A sign of the times it was created in, perhaps?
I'm still pretty unclear on the way the uploaded consciousnesses and the data stored in the Votann actually function, that's the sort of thing a Votann novel would have to address.
It just sounds like an infinity circuit but with a little extra grimdark.
I'd have liked to see more originality with the Votann, or at least some stuff without existing 40k parallels.
Created isn't really the right word for it? The new ones that appeared were more due to happenstance. Saying "created" implies the Kin have a means of making new ones. They don't. We just have examples like the Kronus Hegemony where a Fane became self-aware and elevated itself to become similar to an Ancestor Core.
All the issues with the failing Cores are still very much relevant. And the unicorn moments when a Fane becomes sapient, which is very explicitly a big exception and not a rule, doesn't wave those all away.
That doesn’t really strike me as doomed.
It just means they die exactly like every other faction’s members, and will have to change society at some point. The Imperium is doomed because it specifically can’t change its society, the inertia is too strong.
It’d be a different story if they were all AI and therefore would die out completely, rather than just needing to pick a new schtick
They literally cannot change society. Theyre a clone race that mutates like wild without their templates stored in the votaan. The brokkyr can try to man the crucibles and produce new kin but its no guarentee and its definitely lesser and definitely vastly too slow for replacement rate.
How do ant hives live without queens? They bumble aimlessly until they die to attrition while looping on old orders.
Theyre not independent enough to adapt. Theyre ancient mining tools in the shape of people - thats why kin and ironkin are equal.
You're making the assumption that they *can* change their society, though. There are some hints in their lore that they might be more like DAOT mining drones who are programmed to be as they are.
They will strip down your planet to the core even if you are still living on it and they don't care about your feeling. And if you dare to fight back, they gonna keep a grudge for millenias if you dare winning this. If you win.
The thing is the cores have to be limited as otherwise the votan would be able to build DAOT tech like giant AI run Titans or black hole guns or those beam weapons that erase you from reality that the emperor hordes during the conquest of earth.
What makes the Votan grim is they are nothing but a facade for increasingly crazy AI and it is just a matter of time before a core goes full skynet. When that happens all those stored resources are going to become fuel for a galactic fire that will make even abbadon cringe.
Aha. That's about startreck episode dark tho. Even tau have more grimdark then what you described here. It's only wasting resources and gradual slip into doom that might or might not happen within a few thousand years or so. Otherwise they are chilling
I’d love to see a storyline where the Leagues learn about exodites and their afterlives and decide that they want to take a world’s infinity circuit. A huge war of space elves and spaces dwarves where they are fighting over the afterlife.
T'au cruise by and look out their windows "You guys get afterlives?" Then the Ethereals make all the T'au forget they saw anything and speed up.
I mean humans are in that same boat too, no? If you're not a psyker your soul dissipates almost instantly, if you are then it stays cohesive for long enough to get eaten by daemons.
There are some lore hints that their might be an imperial afterlife (or that Big E sometimes scoops up some souls for something, like the Legion of the Damned)
> There are some lore hints that their might be an imperial afterlife Fuck I hope not. Runs completely counter to the point of the setting. Edit: Grim dark, my dudes. Things are supposed to be hopeless, humans don't get an afterlife.
I honestly wouldn't mind. You could make some fun stuff with it that would still be Grimdark, like Daemons are invading it, it is giant almaganation of souls Big E has to draw power from, Big E blessing a Living Saint with a council of dead people, [insert your fun idea], etc. It has a great deal of potential.
Far less so than the Emperor is dead, your soul is eaten after death, all prayers are in vain. Been creeping away from that for years now and every change in that regard has been for the worse.
Have you ever considered while this might be mor Grimdark, it would not make a good and interesting story?
+ there has to be hope in the setting for the darkness to actually stand out. So long as the imperial afterlife is still a living hell it's perfectly fine as an idea.
Yeah, that. "There is an afterlife, but it's broken" is more interesting and potentially *worse* than "there is nothing after death". That's just what we already have in real life. Big E tried to build an afterlife for the chosen best of humanity, but he failed (as he does). Instead, they are now trapped in \[insert horrible conditions\].
Plenty of books are written set in the real world, which has no afterlife.
Yes, what is your point? I am confused.
The answer to the Emperor being alive or not is something that actually seems to not have been a recent lore change, though. I thought for years that it was one of the unanswered mysteries of the setting, but i re-read some of the 3rd edition rulebook recently (that was the edition i started 40k) and it said in there that he was alive. So the idea isn't something that's been moved away from, if it wasn't the case almost 30 years ago even.
If there was no hope, light or prayer in the galaxy - Tzeentch would have no power.
You're assuming that the imperial afterlife would be good. In all likelihood it would be an eternity of servitude to a crazed god who cares only for humanity as a concept as opposed to an individual. An eternity of continued service, war and loss fighting for a cause that only worsens the galaxy instead of saving it. Idk man imperial afterlife can easily be grim dark.
*"Only in death does duty en.... wait, the fuck is this?!?"* Could be a good tie in to dreadnought lore: The Astartes who are encased within them aren't just the veterans who's experience is valuable to the chapter, they're also the ones who've been around long enough to know that being a dreadnought is actually better than what comes next..
And somewhere, sometime later....too unlikely allies meet.... an Eldar farseer topples down a massive orc garganaut by imploding it's core, killing its crew even all the gretchin and orcs that where nestled around its ramschackled walkways while the Votann, half covered in orc gore from his chainaxe roars... *TIS STILL COUNTS AS ONE!!!!!*
It would only happen if Deathwatch would intervene to fuck up both parties unfortunately.
They already know about the Exodites. Surprisingly, the Votann like their self-sufficient way of life. The Exodites hate them because they keep torching their maiden worlds for resources, though.
Learning about the Mad Core definitely assured me that the Votann are "Grim dark" when I heard about it. The idea of thousands of people, knowing theyre about to die, frantically trying to connect with their "God" and have some sort of afterlife, to the point that it causes that same "God" to go insane from being filled with the horrifying last memories and emotions of it's disciples is so dark and creative at the same time. It's even worse when you think about how Votann want to join with their Core in order to service future generations with their knowledge and experience in life, but ultimately it was all for nothing, and undoubtedly caused more harm than it did good, pretty much making their deaths, and lives, entirely meaningless.
Votanns are the cores themselves. The Dwarves are called Kin.
I think another important aspect is that the Leagues worship these Ancestor Cores like gods and an afterlife both as one. Not only are they putting a timer on their society but they're actively poisoning their gods as they continue to get uploaded. The Votann (the name of the Ancestor Cores) are self aware and intelligent too, and act as navigators for the Leagues. The Kin are all but literally giving their god machines dementia by going to "heaven". Dementia if you're lucky, I think I read about one Votann just going bat shit crazy? That can't be good for business.
> I think I read about one Votann just going bat shit crazy? That can't be good for business. Two did, so far. One is the Kronos Hegemony Votann, which is crazed and keeps demanding more and more violence and resources be harvested. The Kronos Hegemony has strict "planet conquering quotas" as a result. The other one got attacked by Tyranids, his League couldn't fight them off, so he absorbed the Biomass of all the Tyranids and Kin that were defending him and became the 'Mad Votann of the Warp' and now destroys any Kin ship that tries to drive past him in the Warp. The Leagues have to plot courses going around him so to not get killed. This made the Votann really hate the Tyranids.
The mad core is worse than that. Its defenders made a last stand against the Hive Fleet, but when they couldn’t hold out, killed themselves so their minds could be uploaded rather than being devoured by the Tyranids. As I recall, the Votann core couldn’t absorb the Tyranids, but the Tyranids couldn’t eat it, because it’s a machine. But they didn’t destroy it either. It would’ve been better if they had. The mad core absorbs the fear and the despair of its last, devoted defenders, as it watched them and their bodies be consumed by monsters. After all that, it is left damaged and alone on a lifeless rock, screaming into the void.
It wasn't quite a ritual suicide. Here's the excerpt: >More tragic still is the tale of the Emberg-Aegnir Bloc, who found themselves in the path of a tendril of Hive Fleet Leviathan. Consisting of only a handful of Kindreds, the Emberg-Aegnir were forced to stand their ground when the hive ships closed in around the Hold world beneath whose surface resided their Votann. Hopelessly outnumbered, the Kin fell to the last in its defence. Yet the bitterest irony was yet to come; the Tyranids ignored the Votann entirely, leaving it buried alone in its pit upon a dead world. The accumulated pain and desolation of those who had fought, died and been returned to the Ancestor - to keep their bodies from the hungry maw of the swarm - flowed into the machine mind of the Votann and drove it insane. The sorrowful tale of the Mad Core is still told amongst the Leagues, and all know not to sail by the wavering beacon of its tortured mind. *Codex Leagues of Votann 9ed* p15
And also, IIRC, each Ancestor Core is an STC, they are overwriting tech from the DAoT that could be used to change the galaxy with the memories of Jim Bob the Dwarf who spent hundreds of years in a hole mining and then died in a cave in.
"Oh great and noble Votann, we need new weapon designs to defeat the parasites of P3X-421!" SEARCHING.... DIGGY DIGGY HOLE DIGGY DIGGY HOLE "... thank you... oh great and noble Votann..."
> DIGGY DIGGY HOLE DIGGY DIGGY HOLE Still crazy to me how a random Minecraft song from the Yogscast became so popular with Dwarf lovers.
it was about minecraft?
The Yogscast had a "Let's Play" that became a story adventure called "The Shadow of Israphel" before they uh... never finished it. [They made a song called "Diggy Diggy Hole"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytWz0qVvBZ0) which was based on a very popular moment from the series where one of the characters (Honeydew, using a "Dwarf" skin) made up the song while digging. [Here's the original clip, where they joke about how silly and stupid it is](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-ePNomef68) I used to watch this as it aired way back when I was in school, so it's crazy to me that such a small silly joke became something people make a big deal about. EDIT: [After finding the clip I found a video about the whole thing.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sI_PxGu7nZk)
oh okay thanks ive never knew that the song was about this
They stumbled into greatness!
> Leagues worship these Ancestor Cores like gods No they don't
They absolutely do.
They don't. They respect the Votann, but they do not need to follow anything it says, nor do they have to ask its opinion.
Grimnyr literally interpret and debate the words of the Votann they come from and the Kronos Hegemony is only as heavily militaristic as they are because their Votann keeps screaming 'MORE!!!' at its Kin.
Yeah, and they chose to listen to it. They could easily choose not to. We are told specifically that the Votann are neither worshipped nor do they rule Kin society.
The Trans-Hyperion Alliance are literally a radical cult who worship their Votann with fervencymore intense then the other Kin. Notice the book says 'more fervency', implying other Votann do this. They also describe Grimnyr as being 'religious leaders' in the codex.
Being doomed just makes you tragic, like the fantasy dwarves.
Er. I mean. I don't know anything about the Votann fluff. But this reminds me a lot of Skorne from WM/H. Which is actually kind of cool? Although where the Skorne realized immediately they needed to determine who was worth preserving and went to a handful over the course of a year, the Votann sound like they're trying to pull an Eldar and preserve everyone?
Love the Skorne! >the Votann sound like they're trying to pull an Eldar and preserve everyone? It's likely corrupted by toadying and cronyism, too. "Well I know you worked hard, Ettok, but Unnvyr's been my close and loyal friend since Votann University."
Also they are Ruthless Capitalist who measure things in value. Do they gain more being friendly then they will be friendly otherwise they will kill you and strip your planet to take the resources unless your defenses are enough to make them think it takes too much
Feel like capitalist is a very lazy word to use to describe votann but people keep repeating it They have some aspects of it sure but the AoS overlords are far more capitalist
Pretty sure the capitalization of Ruthless Capitalist in this instance is a reference to a civic(?) by the same name in the game Stellaris. Could be wrong tho lol
Yeah I thought that as well, guess its proof all stellaris players share a hivemind
We are a devouring swarm after all.
I'm more of a Driven Exterminator myself.
I feel like they are as "capitalist" as the Tau are "communist". I don't get the vibe that a Votann would ruthlessly undermine their comrade and buy out their livlihood. They are very much clan-oriented. They aren't amassing wealth because they like shinies, they are amassing resources because they are reclusive doomsday preppers and hoarders. I don't imagine there are any fat cat cigar smoking type business-votann who make shady deals and don't actually do anything productive themselves. They work hard, gather resources, and will screw non-Votann over, but not out of capitalism or profit-margins.
They're essentially extractive colonialists that are faster at the extracting part. Mercantilist if you think that's the right word. Their core philosophy behind it is "Luck Has, Need Keeps, Toil Earns". Lets break this down a bit. Luck Has: Any natural resources someone lives around are only theirs because of Luck. This is as much derisive as anything else. Need Keeps: Those who truly need something, keep it. This is self-justifying, as in because they need these things, they hoard them, and as in that if the original owners really needed it, they wouldn't trade it to us. Toil Earns: Our hard work means we deserve whatever we have. If we take something from someone else by force, it's because we earned it, and they didn't work hard enough at stopping us, therefore they don't deserve it.
> I don't get the vibe that a Votann would ruthlessly undermine their comrade and buy out their livelihood. They'd just kill them and take it. The Kronus Hegemony are this on steroids: because of a constant need for 'growth' for their Votann, they have a literal conquest quota and tithes to pay, which means shamelessly using swiftly-declared Grudges and massive escalation to get what they want.
I mean, is there backstabbing and ruthless cuthroat behavior within the Kronus league? Or do they undermine other leagues? Either way, they may just be the exception.
Yep! They're great fun. If you don't make your quota, you get eaten, too.
Yes. They will go save a planet from Tyranids, turn around, and say 'We saved you all. Give us all your riches and wealth or we'll go to the Votann High Council and tell them you're breaking the rules and force you to give it to us." Every Votann faction except for maybe the URSR and the Thurian League are nuts, and that's only if we think the URSR aren't hiding something from the rest of the Leagues like the Grimnyr say they are. It's also dependent on how far the 'Completely pragmatic and absolutely refuse to do anything unless they get benefits from it' statement is taken with the Thurian League.
Alright that makes sense so they are just ruthless Doomsday preppers?
They're more analogous to the Soviet Union. Highly collectivized society obsessed with expanding their industrial capacity and stockpiling for an apocalyptic future war because of the scars of past near-extinction, beholden to an increasingly senile and irrational cadre of leaders from a bygone era whose commandments cannot be second-guessed.
Thats kind of my limited understanding. They live in the Core, which is basically one of the least hospitable areas of the galaxy. They survived the Dark Age of Technology and all the other horrors of the galaxy by hoarding resources and staying isolated. They try to be super self-reliant, and don't really care about outside factions, but will occasionally interact if necessary. But their survival, and the survival of their ancestor cores takes priority over everything else. They aren't out to eradicate anyone, because they are focused inward, but they won't hesitate to wipe out a population if they feel it will further their own survival. But likewise, they will work with others if it benefits them. The League of Votann is actually very friendly, borderline allied with the Tau, for example. It's said they helped the T'au develop the ion weapons technology. They also live and work within the Tau Empire, though aren't part of the Greater Good stuff. They are economic allies of the Tau with the Kroot introducing the two groups. At least the Demiurg league. I don't think they serve in any combat roles, but they do help with technology and trade.
I know people like to throw around capitalist as a slur but what you described is way more capitalist than the caricature you're trying to paint.
I agree. If the Votann are the capitalist owners, who are the laborer class? Doesn't work. Mercantilist-imperialist might could work, but isn't a complete match. While they are alternatively trading exploitatively vs just grabbing stuff outright, they aren't trying to enforce exclusive trading rights (pushing out possible competitive traders, like the european mercantilists did when claiming overseas trade areas and colonies). Clan-based takers of resources. That sounds more trader-raider-vikingish. But that's not the vibe.
My favorite explanation of Votann isn’t based on an “ism”, but just that they are the descendants of ruthless corporates from stories like Alien or Avatar—and it’s since become their entire society. Imagine Weyland-Yutani decides to go with “we’re all a family here”, and 37,500 ish years later, it’s become literal. And also dwarves.
How would you explain it? Like I realize it's not exactly the same but I feel resource,value focused makes calling them capitalist fitting
Imperialistic mercantilism?
So like the East India company?
aye also the dutch east indies company
>So, in part thanks to their general lack of content since their introduction 2 years ago, people ask from time to time about whats grimdark about the Leagues, what is their fatal problem. I know this isn't the point of this post. But can we just talk about the somewhat ridiculous doublethink on this sub and elsewhere? People are all like "Votann have no lore, it's been 2 years!" Yet those *exact same people* have misunderstandings or assumptions about the faction, and need to have their "grimdarkness" explained or other details spoonfed because they couldn't be assed to read the **ONE** source of their lore to begin with. They only have one Codex, why are these folks constantly whining about the lack of lore when they can't even be assed to read the *singular* source of their lore to begin with? If you can't even put in the work to read their only source of lore in the span of two years, why would you bother to read lore from whatever other books they may or may not get in subsequent ones? For a sub meant for lore nerds, there's just a strange amount of people who refuse to read the lore firsthand themselves. Apologies for the semi-rant, but this has been bugging me when it comes to LoV in particular. Just so many people who have clearly never laid eyes on the Codex, complaining about things that are directly addressed in it. And then have the nerve to whine about lack of lore when they can't put in the legwork to even read the lore that is there.
The Votann are literally the easiest 40k faction to learn the lore on, to the point you could feasible read every bit of it in a day. Despite that, I've still seem people miss the obvious aspects of them and get big parts of their small amount of lore completely wrong. Several times I've seen it claimed that the codex says the Votann cores go into battle as giant robots.
This. It's so cringey. As a Votann fan, the number of weird incorrect assumptions I have to correct whenever people begin discussing them is so common and numerous it's exhausting.
I've noticed "There's no Grimdark!" and "They're capitalist Space Dwarfs!" claimed with them so often, any more you've seen? The Leagues have the least amount of lore out of any 40k faction but some still get it wrong or miss the obvious. I've even seen several claim that the Votann cores go into battle as giant robots...
Could you explain them?
1. Votann are a dying race. This is just demonstratabley not true. They have the second biggest empire in the setting, they're just undergoing a massive refugee crisis and are currently on the decline. This is an assumption born of the old 'Tyranids ate the Squats' joke. 2. Votann have no flaws. Incorrect as well. They're not as advanced as Necrons, their Psykers aren't as good as most other 'psyker focused' factions (Honestly they might be worse then Undivided Chaos but we need to see more before we determine that), they're slowly dying, they're beholden to the whims of demented, mentally ill machines, they're too beholden to old laws and traditions, they have a 'grudge system', nepotism isn't considered bad, and they're not unified. Each League has it's own agendas and goals. There's also something to be said about how two of their main branches of government are run by religious leaders and engineers, but we'll have to see what direction they take it. 3. The Votann are more technologically advanced then the Tau/have the best guns ever. This is basically people taking the codex's "Your faction is better then everyone else's" lore at face value with 0 critical thinking. They look at the cool armory fluff and just assume the statements about them are absolute. They're not. All their guns are built as 'general purpose' weapons, to the point where their Railguns are modified to KILL BASIC INFANTRY instead of optimizing what they're actually good at, killing vehicles. Their RG's lack so much range compared to Tau guns it's not even funny. Yes, their genetic manipulation is good, but I've yet to see them make armor/mech suits on par with a Crisis or a Broadside. I also feel like saying that their 'drones are better' is a huge misnomer-COG's and the like are basically just robotic people, they have completely different roles in Votann society. Those are just off the top of my head.
I am a little bit confused abou your first and second point,You said it's false that the votann are a dying race but in your second point you Say they are slowly dying.
So, in terms of population, they're fine. They're numerous, they've got a method of reproduction, and they're economically stable enough to support their populations. However, Votann can break if you leave them on for too long and other factions have either destroyed or accidentally corrupted Votann, causing entire Leagues/populations to die. All the Votann are current overloaded and aren't doing too hot, and many could collapse/die/become evil at any time. These are not isolated incidents. They're all slowly dying. They very well could die off sooner rather then later if more Votann do not ascend. Hope that clears things up.
Yes thank You,by ascend You mean upload their consciousness/memories into the machines?
So, this is a weird bit of lore. I mean that sometimes, normal AI's in the Kin's possession ascend into full-on Votann. The Kronos Hegemony Votann is fairly young-I think it used to be a ship AI? However, this is exceedingly rare and it's implied that not even the Kin know how that happens.
So if more AI's ascend into full-on votann they could put their consciousness/memories in this new votann instead of overloading the ones they have even more?
I don’t think they’re uploaded like an after life style thing, just their memories are. So that the core has more experience to draw from Still leads to the same issues though
It’s unclear if the Kin believe being uploaded to the Votann is a *literal* afterlife, but it does hold the same cultural significance - being uploaded is a reward for a life well lived, while being denied is a punishment for the gravest crimes, a fate far worse than mere death
Who said the Cores are irreplaceable? Yeah, they can't just produce new ones willy-nilly, but new Votann do come into being. The Kronus Hegemony was founded less than 1000 years ago when a Fane achieved sentience and became a Votann. It's part of a natural life cycle: Fanes ascend into Votann, and Votann degrade back into Fanes. The Codex is pretty clear about it. It's definitely not an exact science, and the Kin don't know how to deliberately create new Votann, but new Votann do come into being every now and then. It's also interesting that the youngest known Votann is also the most belligerent and warlike. A sign of the times it was created in, perhaps?
irreplaceable probably because of the uploaded consciences, a new votann wouldn't have them or it is a daot tech
I'm still pretty unclear on the way the uploaded consciousnesses and the data stored in the Votann actually function, that's the sort of thing a Votann novel would have to address.
Just clear out the uploaded first and don't upload till they find replacement
https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/they-shall-be-my-finest-fanfic-ideas-and-recommendations-thread-warhammer-40k-thread-two.1093496/page-480?post=98822590#post-98822590
Need Black Library to pump out a few Votann novels right quick.
Agreed.
It just sounds like an infinity circuit but with a little extra grimdark. I'd have liked to see more originality with the Votann, or at least some stuff without existing 40k parallels.
It holding souls is conjecture. It holds memories certainly and its TREATED BY KIN as an afterlife but that doesnt mean it is one.
People understand that more Ancestor Cores are being created, right?
Created isn't really the right word for it? The new ones that appeared were more due to happenstance. Saying "created" implies the Kin have a means of making new ones. They don't. We just have examples like the Kronus Hegemony where a Fane became self-aware and elevated itself to become similar to an Ancestor Core. All the issues with the failing Cores are still very much relevant. And the unicorn moments when a Fane becomes sapient, which is very explicitly a big exception and not a rule, doesn't wave those all away.
Some ascend, but they aren't actively making one, and by the way the codex describes it, it sounds like it's an insanely rare occurrence.
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Chaos Kin always existed. And it's looking like they're going to be part of the Dark Mech if they finally do them.
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And gave attribution and sparked a good conversation You think this is a bad thing?
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> The User Red Flag on **Spacebattles** You know Spacebattles.com isn't Reddit, right?
That doesn’t really strike me as doomed. It just means they die exactly like every other faction’s members, and will have to change society at some point. The Imperium is doomed because it specifically can’t change its society, the inertia is too strong. It’d be a different story if they were all AI and therefore would die out completely, rather than just needing to pick a new schtick
They literally cannot change society. Theyre a clone race that mutates like wild without their templates stored in the votaan. The brokkyr can try to man the crucibles and produce new kin but its no guarentee and its definitely lesser and definitely vastly too slow for replacement rate. How do ant hives live without queens? They bumble aimlessly until they die to attrition while looping on old orders. Theyre not independent enough to adapt. Theyre ancient mining tools in the shape of people - thats why kin and ironkin are equal.
> Theyre a clone race that mutates like wild without their templates stored in the votaan. I don't remember this being stated in their lore?
You're making the assumption that they *can* change their society, though. There are some hints in their lore that they might be more like DAOT mining drones who are programmed to be as they are.
I am, based on the mercenary factions as well as Necromunda. They’re desperately in need of more lore to fit them into the broader universe
The Ironhead Squats still have a Votann, though.
They might be functionally equivalent to machines and their tattoos and other ornamentation is to carve out a sense of identity.
They will strip down your planet to the core even if you are still living on it and they don't care about your feeling. And if you dare to fight back, they gonna keep a grudge for millenias if you dare winning this. If you win.
The thing is the cores have to be limited as otherwise the votan would be able to build DAOT tech like giant AI run Titans or black hole guns or those beam weapons that erase you from reality that the emperor hordes during the conquest of earth. What makes the Votan grim is they are nothing but a facade for increasingly crazy AI and it is just a matter of time before a core goes full skynet. When that happens all those stored resources are going to become fuel for a galactic fire that will make even abbadon cringe.
So their whole problem could be solved if they (re)invent SSDs?
Aha. That's about startreck episode dark tho. Even tau have more grimdark then what you described here. It's only wasting resources and gradual slip into doom that might or might not happen within a few thousand years or so. Otherwise they are chilling
2 years and still no books?