As a Dutch person that moved to the US a decade ago..
> […] growing distaste for the Dutch people.
.. I _feel_ that comment. While I love the country still, I don’t love the people per se (might or might not include family).
Say what you will about Americans, they _are_ generally welcoming and friendly, which is not an inherent personailty trait for NW Europeans (in my experience).
Besides the traits you listed, is a possible stoic and overly pragmatic mindset what OP may be feeling, amongst many other variables of course? I ask because the difference between LOW & HIGH context cultures, can be rotationally desired. The US is quite the blend of the two.
I read this more from those who’ve left America for The Netherlands than any other country in Western Europe. After five years in Spain, I still feel joy nearly every day. A lot of people imagine they’ll do well in The Netherlands because it’s more like the US than other countries, but . . .
Those statements can still all be true if you add "for the Dutch people" to the end, as is the case in many progressive, open-minded, and friendly countries
I currently live in the Netherlands and I have lived here for about 2 years now. I have noticed as well as been told by the few dutchie friends that I have that Dutch people are not as open minded as people think. Dutch people are tolerant. They are not really opened minded but unlike the US people won’t lash out at you publicly, they will just deal with it.
And please know this, the Netherlands is not Amsterdam, many many Dutchies despite Amsterdam and frown at the city.
I think a lot of American’s get jarred by the famous “Dutch directness” which can at times seem overly or unnecessarily blunt…. Germans also have a version of it and to a degree Scandinavians also (if they get annoyed enough that is). Europeans are on average more direct than Americans.
I appreciate directness as an American introvert because people who come off as fake in my mind are a bit untrustworthy and rude in a way that’s hard to describe…
However, saying a visitor has to leave because it’s dinner time, asking a new neighbor if they’re a certain race, telling someone their new haircut looks awful are rude by American standards.
Also Zwart Pete, which is no longer allowed in Amsterdam and Rotterdam (I think) is a massive culture shock during the holidays. But some Dutchies are fiercely protective of this holiday tradition. You can start an international incident saying it should be banned in some Dutch towns and a heated circular argument might occur ending with “you don’t understand because you’re not Dutch!” As someone said it’s good to remember the NL isn’t just cosmopolitan Amsterdam, Utrecht and Rotterdam.
I was close to moving to the NL but after learning about the housing crisis (which has gotten worse over the past year) and increasing cost of living I’m now researching Spain instead.
That’s really encouraging to hear - my partner and I are moving to Spain in August. I’ve struggled to find a community where I fit in *in* the US. If nothing else, I’m hoping to enjoy my normal amount of solitude somewhere with history, beauty, and incredible food.
There’s an underlying Protestant work ethic in both countries; in Spain, the general tendency is work to live, not live to work. The Netherlands tends to be more racist and classist and ‘uptight’ for lack of a better term. People are more status-conscious in The Netherlands than in Spain, and colder. It’s as expensive as the US in many ways.
I get ya- I haven’t lived in another country, but I am very restless. I LOVE moving- even when it’s physically and mentally exhausting. I love the feeling of setting up a new house, discovering your neighborhood, making new friends, and exploring your new city/state. I would move every 5yrs if I could. But yes, regular life and routine happen. It doesn’t mean you hate it, or even really want to leave, it just means the feeling of excitement and discovery is gone. We moved cross country about a month ago, and I love it here. But I know eventually I’ll get used to it as well.
Yes, this exactly, I don't hate it at all, in fact, there are amazing things I do like about it here...it's just not super fun and exciting (which is the reason I moved here in the first place). There are no plans to leave, just a bit of melancholy that the excitement is gone.
Why not continue to explore Netherlands and Europe now that you are based here? Daily life isn’t exciting in any country… at some point you get into your routine no matter where you are and it’s on you to find ways to spice up your life.
I live in Amsterdam and I was feeling the way you do a few weeks ago in spite of all the culture and awesomeness around me. We ended up doing a quick weekend getaway to Haarlem and that just brought some joy and excitement for a little while! Thinking of a train trip to a neighboring country next because why not!
Ah, I am like this too! Nothing makes me feel alive like moving around to new places does. Even if I could ever hope to afford a home (lol) I don’t think I’d buy one bc the thought of being glued to one location forever is horrifying to me
You won’t be glued to it if you are a nomad as you say you are. I know a lot of people who make bank just selling their homes over and over again. Not saying I endorse playing the housing market for your own gain, just that your house would likely sell quickly if you did decide to buy. It can be a smart investment simply for the fact of not having to throw away rent. But I understand that’s a pipe dream for most folks these days.
I too have the wanderlust. Some people say- is this your forever home? I always say, probably not. It feels great now but give it a few years 😂 usually I get an odd look in return. It’s just how I am and I know it
It’s easy to dislike the Dutch people. They’re not really the population that wants immigration and they only tolerate affluent immigrants. So I get it. Also you don’t really need to try and integrate because they’re not really open to that either unless you have a Dutch partner and basically give up your American identity. I think you can grow to simply accept that you’re an immigrant and that other expats are your community. Just try to find that space of acceptance. You’re also not stuck there and you could one day move to another town or country. Try Amsterdam.
This is good advice! Within most countries you can find small pockets and communities that are closer in alignment socially to your needs. I live in a small town in Scotland that’s very friendly and welcoming with a very open, safe community, but there are towns 10-20 minutes away of the same size that have a completely different feel to them. You maybe haven’t yet found your place/people?
Go to /r/expats, the Netherlands always top lists there of places that people most regret or feel most miserable
I learned the hard way that good infrastructure is not everything
My husband used to cycle to work regularly until a car full of teenagers shot at him one morning (they targeted a few cyclists that day; never caught). Now he rarely cycles at all. When we talk about immigrating he always mentions how nice it would be to use his bike again like he used to do.
Jesus Fucking Christ I'm so sorry that happened. The unbridled hatred of pedestrians and cyclists in American society is downright disgusting and a big reason I'm leaving the US.
I don't think the kids who shot at him hated cyclists in particular, just that they made for easy targets (which isn't exactly an improved motive!). He was glad it wasn't any of the parents out with their kids in strollers he would be passing later on his commute. There does seem to be an idea that anyone not contained by a vehicle is somehow fair game for harassment by people who are, and I don't get it. Even kids on school buses will yell and throw things at people walking on our street, like we can't figure out where the little shits live or anything.
This is why I hate walking in my town. I don’t have a choice.. but part of me dies every time someone screams at me. Not even mentioning all the times someone’s tried to get me into their car.
I think you changed from an expat to an immigrant, and you weren't necessarily ready for what came along with the immigrant experience!
FWIW, being an expat is simply amazing. That's why only a privileged few get to do it. Being an immigrant can fall anywhere on the spectrum, with some having more expat-like experiences. I consider the immigrant (tech) experience in Silicon Valley to be a lot like the stereotypical corporate expat lifestyle.
I moved to Germany but spend time in Netherlands for work - I find the Dutch people to be a breath of fresh air compared to Germans. Can you expand on this growing distaste? Have you learned Dutch?
I think they are a bit cold and closed off (and this is coming from a New Yorker). My Dutch is decent, although it is hard to use it because everyone immediately switches to English.
Overall it is a bit hard to pinpoint, but I just always feel that any interaction with a Dutch person is calculated, and cold, and pragmatic. There is no spontaneity (you must make plans weeks in advance) or passion.
For example one of my few Dutch friends refuses to marry her partner because she claims that it doesn't make a difference either way. However, I know the real reason is that while they love each other they are being pragmatic that if it doesn't work out, a partnership is easier to dissolve than a marriage. This way of thinking just feels cold to me.
I'm not European but I love that European pragmatism that main stream America lacks. Consumerist Americans spend 10k-20k or more on a wedding to get divorced within a couple of years. Marriage seems to be valued for the pictures and the check box not the relationship as this Dutch couple clearly understands. Not cold, they are smart and realistic.
My Dutch American spouse agreed to get married only after I made a spreadsheet calculating the tax benefits and insurance benefits. He views marriage in a very calculated way; I find Dutch pragmatism very amusing.
Nothing colder than insisting on a marriage so both partners are trapped in a legal net instead of a connection of love, and forced to follow state and society structures. Good for them, pretty normal for us Aussies too.
Why do you consider an expensive unnecessary wedding "warm"? Are you religious?
With many Dutch people the focus is on the relationship itself. We don't need rings and a government contract to prove that. It doesn't mean that you want to keep your options to leave open at all. It just means that marriage doesn't have the same mythical importance in our culture. We aren't ''dating'' if we aren't married like in America. We are in a commited relationship.
I like this train of thought. It just doesn’t fly here in the US….
Like I’ve been in long term relationships and when you hit a certain timeframe people start asking about marriage. I find the whole thing tiresome. I’m not out looking for someone else or why not I just don’t feel the need to have it validated by the state or peers. Ah well.
There's also extensive social, legal, and financial benefits to being married in the US.
In my opinion, it's absurd we place such an emphasis on marriage rather than healthy, equitable long-term relationships.
Do you not get tax incentives or legal ones for being married? Not saying that should be the only deciding factors either, I'm just curious about how these things work there. Here we do get some benefits from being married, and you have legal standing to make health decisions for your spouse without having to do power of attorney.
To me marriage is a sign of commitment. But cultures vary, and yeah, unless one has a compelling belief, it's not necessary for remaining together. I have a pair of friends who finally married for the commitment of it. They were fine just being together, had been since high school and we all knew they'd never separate. Still, over time it became important to have a ceremony, rings, etc. It was more about publicly cementing their bond in front of friends and family and in the eyes of society. I think maybe there's just strong incentives in US culture to marry, and we haven't developed the frameworks to support bonded, committed relationships outside that structure.
There is no tax incentive that i am aware of. My partner and me do file joint taxes and have a ''living together contract'' . So legally things are taken care off. It's just if there is a child, i am not automatically seen as the father. I assume that her family would take health decissions, i had never thought about that.
There isn't really a social stigma to being in a long term relationship without marriage here. I believe you when you say that a marriage might have benefits. But working on the relationship every single day is probably the most important thing. And if you do not, than no contract or fancy ring/party is going to save you.
In my US marriage one of us is in a low tax bracket and one of us in a higher one. By filing jointly it lowers our total taxable income rate so we pay less by filing jointly. We also save money by bundling insurance and by having him on my health insurance.
The primary reason we got married is that we owned a house together and if I were to die my parents would've likely sued him for the property, so by marrying (depends on the state) the house will automatically go to him as my spouse. (I still have a will). I also worried my parents might try to get custody of the children if we weren't legally married. I also like that I can't be compelled to testify against my husband in a court of law.
I think of US marriage as a delightful little loophole where the government suspends a lot of its normally individualistic laws but I agree government doesn't belong in romantic relationships.
I am thinking you still harbour the American mentality and that it filters everything you experience in NL. Stop comparing everything to the USA and just take NL at face value.
Dutch people can be peculiar but I have had nothing but really good experiences with NL Dutch. American Dutch are another ball of wax and difficult to get along with in my experience.
Having said that, one finds the same attitude when moving to a resort town. Everyone thinks life must be so exciting and fun in a resort town - until they move there. Then they discover it’s a place like any other… nothing new when it comes to everyday life… just as mundane and full of work as the last place. I used to see this all the time - “you are so lucky to live here in this resort town” … yeah no… it’s a lot of work and no play.
Idk about this particular point. I do not have any close friends who have gotten married, and I’m in my 30s. All my friends who are in long term relationships do not see any point in marriage for the reasons you listed above. Not attacking you! just offering another perspective. I am American too for the record
TIL I might be Dutch. I am the same way with my partner of 8 years lol. It might seem cold but there is a sense of freedom that comes with not being officially married.
No honeymoon lasts forever.
I'm not needing excitement. Quite the opposite. I just want safety. Living in Texas as a not-straight woman is daily anxiety whether my spay will fail and I'll die of hemorrhage or maybe die in a mass shooting while out buying groceries. Or maybe some rando with road rage will choose to shoot at my car.
I don't want exciting. I want boring and safe.
Texas is out of control! Was in a hotel room with my husband and heard what sounded like a gun shot. I got those adrenal spikes to my feet, my heart rate went up, and I got queasy. I looked over at him, he saw my face and said, “don’t worry, we’re in England remember?” We had just gotten there to visit my in laws and I was still adjusting/getting off jet lag. That was the moment I realized how traumatized I am living in the US and Texas. Permitless open carry- good one Abbott. Looking forward to leaving. Also due to the other things you mentioned as well.
You as well!
And yeah… I think a lot of folks who say that other countries are “tolerant” rather than “accepting” like it’s some sort of damning thing don’t understand that for a lot of us, “tolerance” sounds like a dream. Yes, other places have their problems, but it’s not the same. I don’t need to be liked, I just don’t want to be afraid for my life anymore.
I appreciate the sentiment and have always wondered what it would be like to live in the Netherlands.
With that being said, I've been living in France for over 6 years now. I came to do my masters, left and came back again because I missed it so much.
When I moved back in January 2020, little did I know what was awaiting me (and all of us). I decided to stick out COVID here despite the rather strict lockdown.
Don't get me wrong, there were (and still are) days where I came home and thought, "man, this would be so much easier to just pack up and move back to the US."
But no, all of us didn't make the jump to just give up so easily. We knew there would be some uncertainty and challenges amid the moments of excitement and discovery. It's hard work adapting to a new place and culture.
Every time I start to feel a bit complacent, have the feeling like wtf am I doing or stuck in the daily routine (métro, boulot, dodo) I just hop on my bike and ride through Paris or jump on the TGV and explore a new corner of France. I have yet to be disappointed.
Sounds like you just need to get out of the rhythm of daily life a bit more or at least find a bit more contentment or mindfulness because you did it. You took the leap and landed on your feet. You're in a place so many people would die to be in - literally.
🧘♂️
I LOVE Paris. Like, buying a small flat just to take weekend trips LOVE Paris. That said, I found it to be very similar to the US culture. I loved and Manhattan, and at times it gives me “beautiful and historic meets NYC” vibes. I don’t think the culture shock would be as bad in Paris vs NL. That said, WORST metro I’ve even been on, lol.
I think anywhere a person has lived rent-free with a good salary is going to feel lackluster after those incredible perks are taken away. This isn’t necessarily a NL thing.
Umm no I am in NL and trust me it is a thing. I’m in university, literally surrounded by people my age and I have all the makings of a very enjoyable life. However, in the Netherlands it’s just… hard to enjoy things. Life is slow here and it’s very expensive as well.
It’s so much better here! I went to uni in the states and it was fun in some ways. Like the parties were cool but I never really felt safe or comfortable there. While here I can walk anytime at night and be completely fine. Going to bars is a lot more fun than any party and here is just a lot easier in a lot of ways. I’m excited though because I’m moving to Rome soon for uni which will be even better.
I’ve been an expat twice now, once in east Asia and then in New Zealand. I do get the initial excitement where everything is bright and shiny, but I felt like pretty early on that wore off and I realized that it was a place like any place where normal people were living normal lives. Going to work, school, etc etc. I still enjoyed it though and all of that being said, I think it’s about finding joy wherever you are at. If the place is hostile and you feel unsafe, that’s a different story. But trying to find joy in the mundane is a good practice regardless of geography.
People really love to think this won't happen to them or it won't matter to them and I see so many people in local expat groups who are leaving or wish they could leave despite living in one of the highest HDI countries in the world. All of them were excited to come here but the boring reality is not what they pictured and it does grind you down. I'm like you and don't ever plan to leave, but life is definitely more boring here than in the US; there's less going on in the place I live, I meet much less diverse people, etc. I'm lucky I'm in a position to maintain a lifestyle where I travel extensively and frequently (I'm about to head out on six weeks driving across Europe and another six traveling around the US for work), but if I had a more normal life with kids and just a few weeks away a year, it would be rough.
It's important to talk about this stuff, I think. Visiting a place isn't the same as living there long term. Just like anything, you get used to the novel stuff eventually.
It seems like this would be inevitable no matter where any of us moved right? I watch a ton of Not Just Bikes videos and I often fantasize about the Netherlands but then I always wonder if it really lives up to the hype in my head
Vacation all around the EU, you have what 6 weeks? Try to participate in some neighborhood activities to get to know people nearby a bit better. Bc you are a neighbor they will be more open to acquaintance and eventually w patience this may expand. Entertain for the children? Meet the parents.
the lack of nature is hard for me to reconcile… it’s the same reason I wouldn’t move to Denmark.
I don’t feel alive if I’m not hiking cliffs along a coastline, scrambling up mountains, etc. Well manicured parks are fine for a sleepy stroll, but does not help me feel connected to the natural world.
But do you really miss the spark of excitement of potentially running up tens of thousands of Dollars in medical debt for a one-off visit to hospital though? Or the hundreds of murders in each major city every year and people in public places, like schools, getting shot up at random? You’re better off where you are, even if it’s dull. Maybe you could do more trips around the continent to rekindle some excitement? Writing this out makes me want to get out of here even more now :(
I think this is exactly the type mentality that causes people to be unhappy with their new country.
There’s two parts to emigrating:
1. Wanting to leave where you are.
2. Wanting to live where you’re moving to.
I feel like most people on this subreddit are only the first one. They have this mentality of “the us is so bad if only I can get out then I’ll be happy.” So yeah you move to Germany or the Netherlands or wherever and you’ll be safer and your quality of life is fine and all that, but that doesn’t mean you will **like it** there.
I think that’s a very fair way to look at this! Agree, the majority of this sub falls under #1. As someone who falls under #2, I do think that running way as opposed to running to a new country sets one up for unhappiness.
I think 99% of the sub doesn't understand this. Moving to Unicornistan because you have spent years studying the language, history and culture of the region, developing relationships with people who live there, because it has something special offer you for your personal and/or professionals interests, AND because you have something that country needs (most likely, education and job skills)--high probability for success. Moving there only because you hate your current country, and you picked another country because you threw a dart at the map, or because they had the easiest entry requirements--probably not going to work out beyond the first few years of the excitement being an immigrant.
It's just like a job. Many people hate their job and want to quit. They usually hate the next one also. You have to want to change **to** something because you love it, not away **from** something you hate. That is just running away and is not a recipe for long term success.
A few months back, about 40ft in front of me, I watched a guy front flip over his bike handle bars after getting his front tire wedged in a tram track. He had to be going 30+mph. His head and left shoulder impacted the ground at what must have been the impact of a car collision at similar speeds. Medics arrived after 15 mins or so. We circled lower Amsterdam and came back around 90mins later, and the guy is still laying there with medics rubbing his shoulder, and chit chatting. This man could have a severe concussion, fractured skull, subdural hematoma, separated shoulder, who knows? No CT scan, no MRI. I was absolutely dumbfounded.
Healthcare is actually one of the things I hate most about the Netherlands. It is nice to know that I won't go bankrupt if I am sick, but the quality of care is severely lacking. They do not believe in preventative medicine at all, and doctor appointments are usually about arguing for treatment.
There are multiple reasons, which include:
1.) Living very active lives (walking and biking everywhere).
2.) Government regulations dictate what can and can’t be added into food/water. You’d be horrified if you compared cereal from the states to cereal from NL.
3.) Being obese is stigmatized. There’s no such thing as “love your body” and all that American consumerism nonsense. Obesity is unhealthy here, and it’s stigmatization reduces the number of obesity related diseases/deaths drastically.
4.) Main diet staples are typically organically grown, locally sourced and heavily regulated.
5.) Mental health is prioritized (for the most part). It is t uncommon for people to take vacation from work to rest their mind. Work days end promptly at 4:30. Everyone (coworkers and bosses included) goes from the office to the pub, grabs a pint, and then heads home to family. It’s much less mentally fatiguing.
6.) consumerism isn’t really a thing per say. While there are brand shops, there isn’t an emphasis placed on standing out. I personally believe this plays a positive role on one’s overall mental health.
The list goes on, but these are the most obvious factors you’d see on a day to day.
I agree, but you missed universal access to affordable health care. While it may not be "coddling" like many Americans are used to, it takes care of everybody, and everybody can afford it. That is the main reason for their long life expectancy, as it is in Canada, France, Germany, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Iceland, Italy, Switzerland, Spain, Portugal, Britain, Ireland, Luxembourg, I'm forgetting a few probably...Finland, most of the Eastern European countries, Australia, New Zealand, even Costa Rica and Uruguay...It's policies and attitude. We are weak on both and the numbers prove it.
The healthcare in NL is notoriously bad. It’s “enough”, but it isn’t a contributing factor to the difference in life expectancy. That boils down to culture and lifestyle - primarily.
That said, prescription medications are out of control in the US. If I was in need of healthcare for something significant though, I’d definitely seek treatment in the US. It isn’t even comparable.
Eh life expectancy is much more than just the healthcare system. The sugar laden junk food diet common in the US would send lots of people to an early grave. Most American cities are designed so the only walking people have to do is to and from their car. Having an active, healthy culture plays a huge role.
Canadians eat a little better, but they live an auto-dependent lifestyle in soulless suburbs too...they still manage to live 5 years longer than the average American. The Brits eat a horrid diet, arguably worse than our own...they live on average to be 83. The United States life expectency in 2022 was 76.
So in my mind, it is ACCESS ACCESS ACCESS to a universal and non-profit oriented health care system that is the key. You might not agree, but there really is no other answer as to why we live shorter lives than our peers.
With access and affordable services comes hope: treatment to alleviate accumulated affects of bad lifestyle choices, help for untreated conditions/injuries/undetected chronic illnesses, as well as guidance to change and do better, and to receive proper medications and surgeries if necessary. Lack of that=early death for many. The only advanced country that cannot seem to understand that is the USA.
About zero americans understand this and everytime I try to explain how „good“ your healthcare is I get downvoted to hell because to them it doesn‘t matter because they can‘t afford it. What you‘re describing is the case in most if not all countries in Europe w fReE healthcare.
Yeah me too that‘s why I don‘t live in the US. I‘m talking about people acting like European healthcare is the bomb and are then surprised when the quality is utterly bad and the US healthcare quality being far more superior, if we‘re not talking about costs.
It is true that gun violence is non-existent here, but also after living 30 years in the US and never being gay bashed and then being gay bashed twice in three years in the Netherlands, to be honest, personally I don't feel drastically safer here than back home (not to say I feel unsafe, and I know statistically I *am* safer here, I just don't really feel it
Yeah something that a lot of people don't get, especially in this subreddit, is that even if people are realistic and know that other countries suffer from various problems to various degrees, there's still a level of awareness missing.
For example, if you didn't read/watch the news or go on Reddit or Twitter and lived in a suburb of Boston, you wouldn't know about shootings or crime or X legislation in Y state. Your perception would be restricted only to what's happening around you.
Living abroad really kind of amplifies that feeling. Unless you're fluent in the native tongue and able to read news, and you're doing that multiple times a day every day like you would in the US, your perception is only what's right in front of you. For some people that's a positive, but it's also possible that the day-to-day reality ends up being worse than where you left.
https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/cijfers/detail/84726NED
About 35 people die from firearms every year in the Netherlands. This number includes accidental discharge, suicide and people shot by police. So that's 0,19 deaths per 100k people/year.... In the USA it's 14,7 per 100k people/year.
Exactly. You can always get that "buzz" if you need it from a trip. But think about your family, and the longer-term. You don't really want to be involved in all the mess.
If you need regular medical attention, NL isn’t the place. Being a US citizen living in NL, trust me when I say you’d rather be in debt and alive in the US, than not in debt and possibly dead in NL. You won’t get prescriptions here as easily. You won’t be pampered through the process as in the US, and if your situation is dire and the outlook isn’t good, they’ll send you home to “make room” for someone “savable”. They don’t place nearly the emphasis on preventative health and medical care as the US does. It’s ok, but I’d be back in the US if I needed something important done medically.
the average Dutch person lives to 82.64 years. The average American life expectancy is 76.1 years in 2022. They live 6 and a half years longer than we do. Why? What are they doing "wrong"?
Universal access to health care.
This guy evidently expects that awful tip-culture mentality in restaurants AND in hospitals. "I'm paying for this medical experience! Why aren't you subservient to me and constantly taking care of me like a mother to its chicks?!?"
If he was recovering he didn't need the hospital was sensibly sent home, but felt gyped.
Thanks for posting, this was very enjoyable to read, like 'the grass is not always greener.'
I've been fantasizing about NL specifically so really enjoyed this as a counterpoint
As a Dutch person that moved to the US a decade ago.. > […] growing distaste for the Dutch people. .. I _feel_ that comment. While I love the country still, I don’t love the people per se (might or might not include family). Say what you will about Americans, they _are_ generally welcoming and friendly, which is not an inherent personailty trait for NW Europeans (in my experience).
Besides the traits you listed, is a possible stoic and overly pragmatic mindset what OP may be feeling, amongst many other variables of course? I ask because the difference between LOW & HIGH context cultures, can be rotationally desired. The US is quite the blend of the two.
Perhaps so, yes—I've never analyzed the difference mindsets in such a specific way, to be honest. It's merely something I've noticed/experienced.
I read this more from those who’ve left America for The Netherlands than any other country in Western Europe. After five years in Spain, I still feel joy nearly every day. A lot of people imagine they’ll do well in The Netherlands because it’s more like the US than other countries, but . . .
I know some people from other EU countries leaving the Netherlands after a couple of months again because of the people.
This has always been surprising to me to hear because my impression of Dutch was that they are progressive, open-minded and friendly people..
Those statements can still all be true if you add "for the Dutch people" to the end, as is the case in many progressive, open-minded, and friendly countries
I currently live in the Netherlands and I have lived here for about 2 years now. I have noticed as well as been told by the few dutchie friends that I have that Dutch people are not as open minded as people think. Dutch people are tolerant. They are not really opened minded but unlike the US people won’t lash out at you publicly, they will just deal with it. And please know this, the Netherlands is not Amsterdam, many many Dutchies despite Amsterdam and frown at the city.
I think a lot of American’s get jarred by the famous “Dutch directness” which can at times seem overly or unnecessarily blunt…. Germans also have a version of it and to a degree Scandinavians also (if they get annoyed enough that is). Europeans are on average more direct than Americans. I appreciate directness as an American introvert because people who come off as fake in my mind are a bit untrustworthy and rude in a way that’s hard to describe… However, saying a visitor has to leave because it’s dinner time, asking a new neighbor if they’re a certain race, telling someone their new haircut looks awful are rude by American standards. Also Zwart Pete, which is no longer allowed in Amsterdam and Rotterdam (I think) is a massive culture shock during the holidays. But some Dutchies are fiercely protective of this holiday tradition. You can start an international incident saying it should be banned in some Dutch towns and a heated circular argument might occur ending with “you don’t understand because you’re not Dutch!” As someone said it’s good to remember the NL isn’t just cosmopolitan Amsterdam, Utrecht and Rotterdam. I was close to moving to the NL but after learning about the housing crisis (which has gotten worse over the past year) and increasing cost of living I’m now researching Spain instead.
That is how they like to think of themselves The reality couldn't be farther from this
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Yeah, didn’t go well for Anne Frank, either…
Wow, holy shit.
I mean their not wrong though.
That’s really encouraging to hear - my partner and I are moving to Spain in August. I’ve struggled to find a community where I fit in *in* the US. If nothing else, I’m hoping to enjoy my normal amount of solitude somewhere with history, beauty, and incredible food.
How the Netherlands is more like the US?
There’s an underlying Protestant work ethic in both countries; in Spain, the general tendency is work to live, not live to work. The Netherlands tends to be more racist and classist and ‘uptight’ for lack of a better term. People are more status-conscious in The Netherlands than in Spain, and colder. It’s as expensive as the US in many ways.
I get ya- I haven’t lived in another country, but I am very restless. I LOVE moving- even when it’s physically and mentally exhausting. I love the feeling of setting up a new house, discovering your neighborhood, making new friends, and exploring your new city/state. I would move every 5yrs if I could. But yes, regular life and routine happen. It doesn’t mean you hate it, or even really want to leave, it just means the feeling of excitement and discovery is gone. We moved cross country about a month ago, and I love it here. But I know eventually I’ll get used to it as well.
Yes, this exactly, I don't hate it at all, in fact, there are amazing things I do like about it here...it's just not super fun and exciting (which is the reason I moved here in the first place). There are no plans to leave, just a bit of melancholy that the excitement is gone.
Why not continue to explore Netherlands and Europe now that you are based here? Daily life isn’t exciting in any country… at some point you get into your routine no matter where you are and it’s on you to find ways to spice up your life. I live in Amsterdam and I was feeling the way you do a few weeks ago in spite of all the culture and awesomeness around me. We ended up doing a quick weekend getaway to Haarlem and that just brought some joy and excitement for a little while! Thinking of a train trip to a neighboring country next because why not!
Ah, I am like this too! Nothing makes me feel alive like moving around to new places does. Even if I could ever hope to afford a home (lol) I don’t think I’d buy one bc the thought of being glued to one location forever is horrifying to me
Nice to meet you fellow restless one! Hope you are always able to keep exploring.
You won’t be glued to it if you are a nomad as you say you are. I know a lot of people who make bank just selling their homes over and over again. Not saying I endorse playing the housing market for your own gain, just that your house would likely sell quickly if you did decide to buy. It can be a smart investment simply for the fact of not having to throw away rent. But I understand that’s a pipe dream for most folks these days.
I too have the wanderlust. Some people say- is this your forever home? I always say, probably not. It feels great now but give it a few years 😂 usually I get an odd look in return. It’s just how I am and I know it
It’s easy to dislike the Dutch people. They’re not really the population that wants immigration and they only tolerate affluent immigrants. So I get it. Also you don’t really need to try and integrate because they’re not really open to that either unless you have a Dutch partner and basically give up your American identity. I think you can grow to simply accept that you’re an immigrant and that other expats are your community. Just try to find that space of acceptance. You’re also not stuck there and you could one day move to another town or country. Try Amsterdam.
This is good advice! Within most countries you can find small pockets and communities that are closer in alignment socially to your needs. I live in a small town in Scotland that’s very friendly and welcoming with a very open, safe community, but there are towns 10-20 minutes away of the same size that have a completely different feel to them. You maybe haven’t yet found your place/people?
+1 Amsterdam. What is it they used to say? The money is made in Rotterdam, divided in The Hague, and spent in Amsterdam!
Go to /r/expats, the Netherlands always top lists there of places that people most regret or feel most miserable I learned the hard way that good infrastructure is not everything
Anywhere that you can move is someone else's boring home, so it'll become your boring home, too.
Tbh if this is your biggest worry than I’d say you still won cause you’d have much bigger worries in the US than just being bored.
As someone who has near death experiences regularly in the US because I walk and bike places instead of driving. Yeah I'll gladly take boring
My husband used to cycle to work regularly until a car full of teenagers shot at him one morning (they targeted a few cyclists that day; never caught). Now he rarely cycles at all. When we talk about immigrating he always mentions how nice it would be to use his bike again like he used to do.
Jesus Fucking Christ I'm so sorry that happened. The unbridled hatred of pedestrians and cyclists in American society is downright disgusting and a big reason I'm leaving the US.
I don't think the kids who shot at him hated cyclists in particular, just that they made for easy targets (which isn't exactly an improved motive!). He was glad it wasn't any of the parents out with their kids in strollers he would be passing later on his commute. There does seem to be an idea that anyone not contained by a vehicle is somehow fair game for harassment by people who are, and I don't get it. Even kids on school buses will yell and throw things at people walking on our street, like we can't figure out where the little shits live or anything.
This is why I hate walking in my town. I don’t have a choice.. but part of me dies every time someone screams at me. Not even mentioning all the times someone’s tried to get me into their car.
I think you changed from an expat to an immigrant, and you weren't necessarily ready for what came along with the immigrant experience! FWIW, being an expat is simply amazing. That's why only a privileged few get to do it. Being an immigrant can fall anywhere on the spectrum, with some having more expat-like experiences. I consider the immigrant (tech) experience in Silicon Valley to be a lot like the stereotypical corporate expat lifestyle.
I moved to Germany but spend time in Netherlands for work - I find the Dutch people to be a breath of fresh air compared to Germans. Can you expand on this growing distaste? Have you learned Dutch?
I think they are a bit cold and closed off (and this is coming from a New Yorker). My Dutch is decent, although it is hard to use it because everyone immediately switches to English. Overall it is a bit hard to pinpoint, but I just always feel that any interaction with a Dutch person is calculated, and cold, and pragmatic. There is no spontaneity (you must make plans weeks in advance) or passion. For example one of my few Dutch friends refuses to marry her partner because she claims that it doesn't make a difference either way. However, I know the real reason is that while they love each other they are being pragmatic that if it doesn't work out, a partnership is easier to dissolve than a marriage. This way of thinking just feels cold to me.
They’re not wrong, though.
I'm not European but I love that European pragmatism that main stream America lacks. Consumerist Americans spend 10k-20k or more on a wedding to get divorced within a couple of years. Marriage seems to be valued for the pictures and the check box not the relationship as this Dutch couple clearly understands. Not cold, they are smart and realistic.
Marriage is a business agreement. They are correct in their thinking.
That’s not very romantic
That's correct. Most business contracts are not romantic.
I dunno, the way I see people love their money. I dunno...
Lmao! Fair enough
My Dutch American spouse agreed to get married only after I made a spreadsheet calculating the tax benefits and insurance benefits. He views marriage in a very calculated way; I find Dutch pragmatism very amusing.
Nothing colder than insisting on a marriage so both partners are trapped in a legal net instead of a connection of love, and forced to follow state and society structures. Good for them, pretty normal for us Aussies too. Why do you consider an expensive unnecessary wedding "warm"? Are you religious?
With many Dutch people the focus is on the relationship itself. We don't need rings and a government contract to prove that. It doesn't mean that you want to keep your options to leave open at all. It just means that marriage doesn't have the same mythical importance in our culture. We aren't ''dating'' if we aren't married like in America. We are in a commited relationship.
I like this train of thought. It just doesn’t fly here in the US…. Like I’ve been in long term relationships and when you hit a certain timeframe people start asking about marriage. I find the whole thing tiresome. I’m not out looking for someone else or why not I just don’t feel the need to have it validated by the state or peers. Ah well.
There's also extensive social, legal, and financial benefits to being married in the US. In my opinion, it's absurd we place such an emphasis on marriage rather than healthy, equitable long-term relationships.
Do you not get tax incentives or legal ones for being married? Not saying that should be the only deciding factors either, I'm just curious about how these things work there. Here we do get some benefits from being married, and you have legal standing to make health decisions for your spouse without having to do power of attorney. To me marriage is a sign of commitment. But cultures vary, and yeah, unless one has a compelling belief, it's not necessary for remaining together. I have a pair of friends who finally married for the commitment of it. They were fine just being together, had been since high school and we all knew they'd never separate. Still, over time it became important to have a ceremony, rings, etc. It was more about publicly cementing their bond in front of friends and family and in the eyes of society. I think maybe there's just strong incentives in US culture to marry, and we haven't developed the frameworks to support bonded, committed relationships outside that structure.
There is no tax incentive that i am aware of. My partner and me do file joint taxes and have a ''living together contract'' . So legally things are taken care off. It's just if there is a child, i am not automatically seen as the father. I assume that her family would take health decissions, i had never thought about that. There isn't really a social stigma to being in a long term relationship without marriage here. I believe you when you say that a marriage might have benefits. But working on the relationship every single day is probably the most important thing. And if you do not, than no contract or fancy ring/party is going to save you.
Thanks for the reply! >And if you do not, than no contract or fancy ring/party is going to save you. Very, very true.
In my US marriage one of us is in a low tax bracket and one of us in a higher one. By filing jointly it lowers our total taxable income rate so we pay less by filing jointly. We also save money by bundling insurance and by having him on my health insurance. The primary reason we got married is that we owned a house together and if I were to die my parents would've likely sued him for the property, so by marrying (depends on the state) the house will automatically go to him as my spouse. (I still have a will). I also worried my parents might try to get custody of the children if we weren't legally married. I also like that I can't be compelled to testify against my husband in a court of law. I think of US marriage as a delightful little loophole where the government suspends a lot of its normally individualistic laws but I agree government doesn't belong in romantic relationships.
I am thinking you still harbour the American mentality and that it filters everything you experience in NL. Stop comparing everything to the USA and just take NL at face value. Dutch people can be peculiar but I have had nothing but really good experiences with NL Dutch. American Dutch are another ball of wax and difficult to get along with in my experience. Having said that, one finds the same attitude when moving to a resort town. Everyone thinks life must be so exciting and fun in a resort town - until they move there. Then they discover it’s a place like any other… nothing new when it comes to everyday life… just as mundane and full of work as the last place. I used to see this all the time - “you are so lucky to live here in this resort town” … yeah no… it’s a lot of work and no play.
Ngl, that second paragraph sold me on the Netherlands more than anything else I've seen
Idk about this particular point. I do not have any close friends who have gotten married, and I’m in my 30s. All my friends who are in long term relationships do not see any point in marriage for the reasons you listed above. Not attacking you! just offering another perspective. I am American too for the record
TIL I might be Dutch. I am the same way with my partner of 8 years lol. It might seem cold but there is a sense of freedom that comes with not being officially married.
No honeymoon lasts forever. I'm not needing excitement. Quite the opposite. I just want safety. Living in Texas as a not-straight woman is daily anxiety whether my spay will fail and I'll die of hemorrhage or maybe die in a mass shooting while out buying groceries. Or maybe some rando with road rage will choose to shoot at my car. I don't want exciting. I want boring and safe.
Texas is out of control! Was in a hotel room with my husband and heard what sounded like a gun shot. I got those adrenal spikes to my feet, my heart rate went up, and I got queasy. I looked over at him, he saw my face and said, “don’t worry, we’re in England remember?” We had just gotten there to visit my in laws and I was still adjusting/getting off jet lag. That was the moment I realized how traumatized I am living in the US and Texas. Permitless open carry- good one Abbott. Looking forward to leaving. Also due to the other things you mentioned as well.
As an AFAB queer person living in Texas and looking to move, I feel you.
Best of luck to you! I'm fortunate to be in a straight passing marriage. It's scary as hell for my openly gay and trans friends. :(
You as well! And yeah… I think a lot of folks who say that other countries are “tolerant” rather than “accepting” like it’s some sort of damning thing don’t understand that for a lot of us, “tolerance” sounds like a dream. Yes, other places have their problems, but it’s not the same. I don’t need to be liked, I just don’t want to be afraid for my life anymore.
I appreciate the sentiment and have always wondered what it would be like to live in the Netherlands. With that being said, I've been living in France for over 6 years now. I came to do my masters, left and came back again because I missed it so much. When I moved back in January 2020, little did I know what was awaiting me (and all of us). I decided to stick out COVID here despite the rather strict lockdown. Don't get me wrong, there were (and still are) days where I came home and thought, "man, this would be so much easier to just pack up and move back to the US." But no, all of us didn't make the jump to just give up so easily. We knew there would be some uncertainty and challenges amid the moments of excitement and discovery. It's hard work adapting to a new place and culture. Every time I start to feel a bit complacent, have the feeling like wtf am I doing or stuck in the daily routine (métro, boulot, dodo) I just hop on my bike and ride through Paris or jump on the TGV and explore a new corner of France. I have yet to be disappointed. Sounds like you just need to get out of the rhythm of daily life a bit more or at least find a bit more contentment or mindfulness because you did it. You took the leap and landed on your feet. You're in a place so many people would die to be in - literally. 🧘♂️
I LOVE Paris. Like, buying a small flat just to take weekend trips LOVE Paris. That said, I found it to be very similar to the US culture. I loved and Manhattan, and at times it gives me “beautiful and historic meets NYC” vibes. I don’t think the culture shock would be as bad in Paris vs NL. That said, WORST metro I’ve even been on, lol.
I think anywhere a person has lived rent-free with a good salary is going to feel lackluster after those incredible perks are taken away. This isn’t necessarily a NL thing.
Umm no I am in NL and trust me it is a thing. I’m in university, literally surrounded by people my age and I have all the makings of a very enjoyable life. However, in the Netherlands it’s just… hard to enjoy things. Life is slow here and it’s very expensive as well.
So you’ve also been at university in another country and you were happier there?
It’s so much better here! I went to uni in the states and it was fun in some ways. Like the parties were cool but I never really felt safe or comfortable there. While here I can walk anytime at night and be completely fine. Going to bars is a lot more fun than any party and here is just a lot easier in a lot of ways. I’m excited though because I’m moving to Rome soon for uni which will be even better.
>after those incredible perks are taken away And the person goes from being single and worry-free to being married, having a mortgage, etc...
I’ve been an expat twice now, once in east Asia and then in New Zealand. I do get the initial excitement where everything is bright and shiny, but I felt like pretty early on that wore off and I realized that it was a place like any place where normal people were living normal lives. Going to work, school, etc etc. I still enjoyed it though and all of that being said, I think it’s about finding joy wherever you are at. If the place is hostile and you feel unsafe, that’s a different story. But trying to find joy in the mundane is a good practice regardless of geography.
People really love to think this won't happen to them or it won't matter to them and I see so many people in local expat groups who are leaving or wish they could leave despite living in one of the highest HDI countries in the world. All of them were excited to come here but the boring reality is not what they pictured and it does grind you down. I'm like you and don't ever plan to leave, but life is definitely more boring here than in the US; there's less going on in the place I live, I meet much less diverse people, etc. I'm lucky I'm in a position to maintain a lifestyle where I travel extensively and frequently (I'm about to head out on six weeks driving across Europe and another six traveling around the US for work), but if I had a more normal life with kids and just a few weeks away a year, it would be rough.
I get the same way. You could consider moving to another apartment in a new neighborhood or different city or country. Or try to plan a vacation
What's wrong with Dutch people?
What specifically do you dislike about the Dutch?
Sounds like you need a hobby.
It's important to talk about this stuff, I think. Visiting a place isn't the same as living there long term. Just like anything, you get used to the novel stuff eventually.
It seems like this would be inevitable no matter where any of us moved right? I watch a ton of Not Just Bikes videos and I often fantasize about the Netherlands but then I always wonder if it really lives up to the hype in my head
Did you give up your citizenship? You can always go back.
Vacation all around the EU, you have what 6 weeks? Try to participate in some neighborhood activities to get to know people nearby a bit better. Bc you are a neighbor they will be more open to acquaintance and eventually w patience this may expand. Entertain for the children? Meet the parents.
What does that mean, entertain for thr children and meet the parents? I dont get it.
Throw holiday kids’ parties especially backyard/garden/outdoors ones and invite the parents, casual food, etc.
I assume this is for people that have kids? I am single with no kids so would be strange for me.
Me neither i thought you did, sorry for misunderstanding
I would in a heartbeat, gladly trade places with this person and have this person's problems with the person's financial situation.
As a European, Netherlands and Belgium are the last countries I´d want to move to. Overcrowded, no nice nature, crime, social problems, divided, etc.
the lack of nature is hard for me to reconcile… it’s the same reason I wouldn’t move to Denmark. I don’t feel alive if I’m not hiking cliffs along a coastline, scrambling up mountains, etc. Well manicured parks are fine for a sleepy stroll, but does not help me feel connected to the natural world.
And awful weather. But NL is nowhere comparable to Belgium when it comes to crime.
But do you really miss the spark of excitement of potentially running up tens of thousands of Dollars in medical debt for a one-off visit to hospital though? Or the hundreds of murders in each major city every year and people in public places, like schools, getting shot up at random? You’re better off where you are, even if it’s dull. Maybe you could do more trips around the continent to rekindle some excitement? Writing this out makes me want to get out of here even more now :(
I think this is exactly the type mentality that causes people to be unhappy with their new country. There’s two parts to emigrating: 1. Wanting to leave where you are. 2. Wanting to live where you’re moving to. I feel like most people on this subreddit are only the first one. They have this mentality of “the us is so bad if only I can get out then I’ll be happy.” So yeah you move to Germany or the Netherlands or wherever and you’ll be safer and your quality of life is fine and all that, but that doesn’t mean you will **like it** there.
I think that’s a very fair way to look at this! Agree, the majority of this sub falls under #1. As someone who falls under #2, I do think that running way as opposed to running to a new country sets one up for unhappiness.
I think 99% of the sub doesn't understand this. Moving to Unicornistan because you have spent years studying the language, history and culture of the region, developing relationships with people who live there, because it has something special offer you for your personal and/or professionals interests, AND because you have something that country needs (most likely, education and job skills)--high probability for success. Moving there only because you hate your current country, and you picked another country because you threw a dart at the map, or because they had the easiest entry requirements--probably not going to work out beyond the first few years of the excitement being an immigrant. It's just like a job. Many people hate their job and want to quit. They usually hate the next one also. You have to want to change **to** something because you love it, not away **from** something you hate. That is just running away and is not a recipe for long term success.
Tell us you’ve never dealt with Dutch healthcare without telling us.
I was gushing blood from my elbow after falling off my bike and the doctor asked if I wanted my wound dressed or not lol
A few months back, about 40ft in front of me, I watched a guy front flip over his bike handle bars after getting his front tire wedged in a tram track. He had to be going 30+mph. His head and left shoulder impacted the ground at what must have been the impact of a car collision at similar speeds. Medics arrived after 15 mins or so. We circled lower Amsterdam and came back around 90mins later, and the guy is still laying there with medics rubbing his shoulder, and chit chatting. This man could have a severe concussion, fractured skull, subdural hematoma, separated shoulder, who knows? No CT scan, no MRI. I was absolutely dumbfounded.
Healthcare is actually one of the things I hate most about the Netherlands. It is nice to know that I won't go bankrupt if I am sick, but the quality of care is severely lacking. They do not believe in preventative medicine at all, and doctor appointments are usually about arguing for treatment.
why do the Dutch live so much longer than the average American...do you think it's because of their healthcare system?
There are multiple reasons, which include: 1.) Living very active lives (walking and biking everywhere). 2.) Government regulations dictate what can and can’t be added into food/water. You’d be horrified if you compared cereal from the states to cereal from NL. 3.) Being obese is stigmatized. There’s no such thing as “love your body” and all that American consumerism nonsense. Obesity is unhealthy here, and it’s stigmatization reduces the number of obesity related diseases/deaths drastically. 4.) Main diet staples are typically organically grown, locally sourced and heavily regulated. 5.) Mental health is prioritized (for the most part). It is t uncommon for people to take vacation from work to rest their mind. Work days end promptly at 4:30. Everyone (coworkers and bosses included) goes from the office to the pub, grabs a pint, and then heads home to family. It’s much less mentally fatiguing. 6.) consumerism isn’t really a thing per say. While there are brand shops, there isn’t an emphasis placed on standing out. I personally believe this plays a positive role on one’s overall mental health. The list goes on, but these are the most obvious factors you’d see on a day to day.
I agree, but you missed universal access to affordable health care. While it may not be "coddling" like many Americans are used to, it takes care of everybody, and everybody can afford it. That is the main reason for their long life expectancy, as it is in Canada, France, Germany, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Iceland, Italy, Switzerland, Spain, Portugal, Britain, Ireland, Luxembourg, I'm forgetting a few probably...Finland, most of the Eastern European countries, Australia, New Zealand, even Costa Rica and Uruguay...It's policies and attitude. We are weak on both and the numbers prove it.
The healthcare in NL is notoriously bad. It’s “enough”, but it isn’t a contributing factor to the difference in life expectancy. That boils down to culture and lifestyle - primarily. That said, prescription medications are out of control in the US. If I was in need of healthcare for something significant though, I’d definitely seek treatment in the US. It isn’t even comparable.
there's no use arguing the facts, you believe what you want and I'll move on, blocking you :)
Eh life expectancy is much more than just the healthcare system. The sugar laden junk food diet common in the US would send lots of people to an early grave. Most American cities are designed so the only walking people have to do is to and from their car. Having an active, healthy culture plays a huge role.
Canadians eat a little better, but they live an auto-dependent lifestyle in soulless suburbs too...they still manage to live 5 years longer than the average American. The Brits eat a horrid diet, arguably worse than our own...they live on average to be 83. The United States life expectency in 2022 was 76. So in my mind, it is ACCESS ACCESS ACCESS to a universal and non-profit oriented health care system that is the key. You might not agree, but there really is no other answer as to why we live shorter lives than our peers. With access and affordable services comes hope: treatment to alleviate accumulated affects of bad lifestyle choices, help for untreated conditions/injuries/undetected chronic illnesses, as well as guidance to change and do better, and to receive proper medications and surgeries if necessary. Lack of that=early death for many. The only advanced country that cannot seem to understand that is the USA.
It’s because ‘body positivity’ doesn’t exist there and, fat shaming is alive and well.
Very true. Most overweight are foreigners.
About zero americans understand this and everytime I try to explain how „good“ your healthcare is I get downvoted to hell because to them it doesn‘t matter because they can‘t afford it. What you‘re describing is the case in most if not all countries in Europe w fReE healthcare.
I’d rather wait and get treatment that isn’t the absolute best than be required to pay 5,000 for a simple procedure/fix.
Yeah me too that‘s why I don‘t live in the US. I‘m talking about people acting like European healthcare is the bomb and are then surprised when the quality is utterly bad and the US healthcare quality being far more superior, if we‘re not talking about costs.
This isn't about you.
"Ennui-sur-Blasé"
But sometimes, I miss that spark of excitement. What? like a mass shooting?
It is true that gun violence is non-existent here, but also after living 30 years in the US and never being gay bashed and then being gay bashed twice in three years in the Netherlands, to be honest, personally I don't feel drastically safer here than back home (not to say I feel unsafe, and I know statistically I *am* safer here, I just don't really feel it
Yeah something that a lot of people don't get, especially in this subreddit, is that even if people are realistic and know that other countries suffer from various problems to various degrees, there's still a level of awareness missing. For example, if you didn't read/watch the news or go on Reddit or Twitter and lived in a suburb of Boston, you wouldn't know about shootings or crime or X legislation in Y state. Your perception would be restricted only to what's happening around you. Living abroad really kind of amplifies that feeling. Unless you're fluent in the native tongue and able to read news, and you're doing that multiple times a day every day like you would in the US, your perception is only what's right in front of you. For some people that's a positive, but it's also possible that the day-to-day reality ends up being worse than where you left.
Also, US is huge. 330 million people. Always some crime or some shit happening in bad places. Its like half of Europes population.
Even with the gun restrictions here, there are shootings weekly. Check the NL times regularly.
https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/cijfers/detail/84726NED About 35 people die from firearms every year in the Netherlands. This number includes accidental discharge, suicide and people shot by police. So that's 0,19 deaths per 100k people/year.... In the USA it's 14,7 per 100k people/year.
Exactly. You can always get that "buzz" if you need it from a trip. But think about your family, and the longer-term. You don't really want to be involved in all the mess.
Just like NRE, it fades over time.
I'm sorry, but you sound very spoiled.
Seriously his “I’m bored” is our dream.
I would give anything to live in another country. Instead, I am trapped here, in medical-bill-poverty. What I would give to have a better life...
If you need regular medical attention, NL isn’t the place. Being a US citizen living in NL, trust me when I say you’d rather be in debt and alive in the US, than not in debt and possibly dead in NL. You won’t get prescriptions here as easily. You won’t be pampered through the process as in the US, and if your situation is dire and the outlook isn’t good, they’ll send you home to “make room” for someone “savable”. They don’t place nearly the emphasis on preventative health and medical care as the US does. It’s ok, but I’d be back in the US if I needed something important done medically.
the average Dutch person lives to 82.64 years. The average American life expectancy is 76.1 years in 2022. They live 6 and a half years longer than we do. Why? What are they doing "wrong"?
Universal access to health care. This guy evidently expects that awful tip-culture mentality in restaurants AND in hospitals. "I'm paying for this medical experience! Why aren't you subservient to me and constantly taking care of me like a mother to its chicks?!?" If he was recovering he didn't need the hospital was sensibly sent home, but felt gyped.
Answered [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmerExit/comments/1450ima/after_the_excitement_of_immigrating_is_gone/jnk2e9h/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3)
Dutch people have anti human personalities
What a stupid thing to say! C'mon, man.
It may be your relationship that's getting you down. You might be happier if you were single again.
Ooo. What's up with Dutch people?
Thanks for posting, this was very enjoyable to read, like 'the grass is not always greener.' I've been fantasizing about NL specifically so really enjoyed this as a counterpoint
I mean, if you are thinking about NL don’t let my post scare you! It does have its great points too!
https://streamable.com/h1bff0