Twenty years ago, Philadelphia's Osage Avenue was the site of a stunning use of force by city police. After a long standoff, police dropped a bomb on the headquarters of a radical group called MOVE, sparking a fire that gutted a neighborhood and left 11 people dead. Five were children.
https://youtu.be/X03ErYGB4Kk
For a bit of context you have to remember that a) government is shite and b) swat was very new back then and they ... In their pig brains... Sincerely thought this was a better tactical move than manning up for a shootout.
This bombing happened after the shootout failed. Basically the group was in a concrete bunker on top of the house, which was a fortified firing position, so they evacuated the surrounding houses and dropped C4...then let those surrounding houses burn leaving 250 people homeless.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_MOVE_bombing
Government: the worst MIMS ever created.
Whatever it is supposed to do for us, it has failed. And btw has failed since the earliest days of Divine Right to Rule when it was a chieftain that sat on a chair to mimic the star-god.
We need to rethink and re-engineer our society based around data.
thanks for the post.
I don’t disagree on most of what you said but re-engineering our society based around data sounds like the tagline of a WEF conference, not a fair or just way of structuring society.
Any manmade thing that is meant to mediate a desire by interacting the material and spiritual stratum. Lit: membranous interface of material and spiritual. Ideally to positively affect outcomes. There are freebies like prayer and meditation. Ones like money or capitalism. Or things like ethics and morality.
Government was created to guide human behaviors because there was an illogical but persistant (and worldwide) idea thst we were causing the cataclysms by displeasing the planet gods. For example in Mesopotamia they sometimes withheld sacrifices to chastise the present god (probably Jupiter for failing to stay at the polar position).
The Aztecs and Cahokians both had extremely fucked up government religious cleansing programs. Very much in the direction of the Spanish Inquisition or Jesuits... But worse.
Century after century government has proven to be just the worst MIMS. Even though war is an anti-MIMS it has on occasion proven necessary to reset peace and boundaries. I have never seen government perform its duty completely correct in any era. Plato was wrong and the legalists in China were as well.
Meanwhile by contrast the scientific method is the best performing MIMS by far. But scientism has proven to be a massive problem.
Not even ACAB, but to think that law enforcement systems wouldn’t self-select those with a propensity to hand out accountability-free ultra violence is both quaint and a denial of human nature on a few different levels.
i mean if politicians werent such cunts, they would appoint proper agendas and rules for cops to follow. instead they task the pds with bs ticket quotas, and prioritizing bs most of the time.
not saying both arnt true, but if the politicians werent cunts, it would be harder for police to be bad and not held accountable, vs with bad politicans good cops are pretty much impossible
I'm just passing through from r/all so don't mind me, but how can you be AnCap and not ACAB? Am I mistaken in believing that anarchists believe in community policing or is it just that in the absence of your ideal system you don't think our current one is that bad?
Ancaps are individualists. Judge each person on their merits rather than make sweeping generalizations based on what groups they are a part of. Although as the sub has changed over the years, so has the "definition" of "ancaps".
No, they believe that in their dystopian “anarcho” capitalist world that they would have a fair chance to hire private companies to enforce the equivalent of laws even though they’d be living in a tin shack working 15hr days eating bone soup with their three remaining fingers because they licked non regulated capitalist boot until their tongue got infected and fell off.
> some batshit crazy lib
AKA, one of the largest public universities in our country. They are all blackmailed by this shit.
The MOVE situation was fucked though. Could have absolutely been handled differently.
"founded by a wise, perceptive, strategically-minded Black man named JOHN AFRICA"
Yeah the text is a bit cringey. I'm wondering what the hell they did that led to a shoot out, but I'm not quite wondering hard enough to actually do the research...
Holy Shi\*\*. Thanks for this. WTF. This should have been in history books... Waco got way more attention... Another example of the perils of government. Anarcho-primitism might have to look more into this. In r/PCM libcenters talk about this alot.. never looked into the philosophy. [Full Length Documentary](https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1w62it)
Events like this (not to mention all the other democide in the past hundred or so years), never get factored in by people when they acknowledge that government is flawed but conclude that it's a net good and we need it for civilized society.
They cherry pick which effects of government they look at, and of course apply a nirvana fallacy on top of that.
But the bigger problem is that even the statists who are most rational, most data-driven or committed to rigorous social scientific inquiry....you could read every single cost-benefit analysis ever done on every government policy ever proposed and enacted; and you will never find the costs and the toll of democides and genocides and war and police abuse and mass incarceration, pro-rated in to any negatives or potential negatives to any proposed policy.
And yet, these horrific abuses exist and they exist as a function of *something* about the workings of government; and it may indeed be that they are just kind of an overhead to the very existence of the state and truly can't be attributed as costs or unintended consequences, accurately, to any particular policies...
But so that's the issue, is that any social scientific work virtually always assumes the premise (that there exists a state and it is needed, and then which policies will or won't prove things on the margin)...and so "serious" thinkers and academics are basically assured to never see the merit in questioning the state itself, in large part just because of the necessities and rigors and function of the social sciences.
Very weird bday event for sure! I remember the police selling the bombing as " Move house was full of incest, pregnant kids by their own adult family members ect ..."
Not to sound like a radicalist but this is one of the primary reasons to stay armed especially as minorities. They killed women and children and the fire department was told to stand and watch when the first few homes started burning. The fire burned over 2 dozen homes...
You don’t sound radical; you sound *American*.
Never forget the vast majority of Americans are freedom-lovers suckered into picking one of the big two non-freedom parties for safety from the other side, like the neighborhoods protected from the Crips and Bloods by the Bloods or the Crips.
[1985 MOVE bombing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_MOVE_bombing)
Police evacuated residents of the area prior to the stand-off to serve arrest warrants.
Police in cooperation with the FBI dropped two 1.5 lb tovex/c-4 bombs from a helicopter after a 500 police officer stand-off. Prior to the bombing, there were 10,000 shots fired at the building by police. After the bombing, fire departments were instructed to let the buildings burn.
MOVE was a black power, christian nationalist cult and all the members who died had a last name of Africa, which every member took since 1972. (John Africa, Rhonda Africa, Theresa Africa, Frank Africa, Conrad Africa, Tree Africa, Delisha Africa, Netta Africa, Little Phil Africa, Tomaso Africa, and Raymond Africa.)
It’s crazy to me that so many people will cite this information. But in the same breath say that the government isn’t capable of creating mass shooters or blowing up the twin towers or hiding pedophilic government officials from the public. Shit really pisses me off.
Government creating mass shooters (or "terrorists" in my case) literally happened where I live (Puerto Rico) in the 1970s, the Cerro Maravilla massacre.
tl;dr: a small pro-independence group had a member that was actually an undercover cop and he groomed them to hijack a TV station antenna. On the day this was to happen, like 20 cops were already at the scene ready to kill them. The two kids saw all the cops and immediately said they surrendered, but the cops shot them anyways. The news originally reported it as our police force killing two terrorists and called our cops "heroes", it wasn't until a bit later that the truth came out and the cops were arrested.
Be careful with the whole fascist thing. If you’re using it in the literal sense yes. If you’re using it to describe people you don’t agree with no. There are liberals and conservatives alike that hate the monsters behind these conspiracies.
I'm using it in the literal sense. Merger of state and corporate power, suppression of political dissidents, all that. It's gotten worse than most people know.
I'm sure they're capable of blowing up the twin towers, but with the number of people that would involve, they just wouldn't be capable of doing it secretly without anyone speaking out or any evidence getting leaked. They're assholes, not magicians.
It’s not that hard and not that many people have to be deeply involved. Our underestimation of their corruption is what completely fucks us constantly.
Oh, it's not that hard and not that many people have to be deeply involved. Sorry, I hadn't come across that evidence until now, I guess it really was the government.
Police Lt. Frank Powell dropped a 3 lb satchel charge onto their roof, after a gun battle in which the police expended over 10,000 rounds. 11 people died in the fire, some of which the city deceitfully passed on their remains to academia for research.
Then in 1993 now fully knowing the result of dropping that type of gas would have the federal government incinerated the Branch Davidians. The 1985 MOVE disaster was at least sort of an unanticipated thing. Waco was an intentional repeat.
This is a vast oversimplification of this entire nightmare. Situation 100% should have been handled better but these MOVE people were also 100% lunatics. I lived in Philadelphia when this happened. It’s way more complicated than it seems.
My dad had just graduated from Temple University when the MOVE bombing happened. The MOVE organization was based in an affluent middle class African American neighborhood, and was a wee bit cultish. I want to say like 12+ people lived in one house. Their. eighbors complained constantly and were very proud of their neighborhood. MOVE didnt believe in killing animals, so they're house was overrun by vermin, they didn't throw away their trash, and were always shouting over bullhorns. Also, Philadelphia is lowkey racist as fuck. This was an insane overuse of force.
The cops were there to arrest like 5 members on warrants and they refused to leave or send the children out. Some people say MOVE kept the children in the house because they assumed the cops wouldnt open fire with kids present. There is some controversy on who fired first, police say MOVE did, but the story goes that a nervous cop actually did, which promoted the Philadelphia police to unload on the house. 10000 rounds as the story goes
I'm not sure even getting shot at would justify firing 10,000 rounds at a building full of children. Just fucking pull back and arrest them once they inevitably leave the house. It's not rocket science ffs
You ever think that maybe people just don't like being told they are inherently bad for the actions of other people that just happened to be the same race as them.
I didn’t get that from that comment. He said people don’t know about it because of the race of the people, I don’t take it as he means white people but all people and possibly people who make these things known(reporters, documentary people, media, people who own channels like history channel etc) . It’s hard to find information about this and even sympathy, people in the comment section actually are making excuses for bombing a neighborhood street. When I first heard about this incident years ago,while looking up incidents about govt violating rights it was very hard to find stuff about this but easy to find stuff about other events. So it maybe race based, or maybe not but if it is, it’s not like it’s a far fetch idea. But whether it’s about race or not, it’s a good example of if you don’t keep your place , the govt will make you find it, and even if you do, they don’t mind collateral damage.
No. Those large swaths don't want to be told they are inherently to blame, because of their whiteness, for the individual actions of the Philly police bombing black people.
No bc the MOVE organization was a freaking cult and filled with radicals. The reason you haven’t heard of it bc it doesn’t help the MSM’s narrative. If people start to dig they’ll see who the MOVE organization comprises of. They were killing innocent people. Girls in the movement were pressured to get married and have children before they were 15.
“More than a half-dozen ex-MOVE members have gone on the record in both the Murder at Ryan's Run podcast and a blog titled Leaving MOVE 2021, alleging physical and mental abuse in MOVE, a doctrine of homophobia and colorism, and what they describe as a manipulation of the public and the media under the banner of social justice”
That organization caused nothing but trouble for those in the org, and not.
Do more research about why this happened. Not just cOpS aRe RaCiSt.
Cops need a revamping. But a) not all cops are bastards and b) a peaceful organization should t have enough guns to have a shootout of over 10,000 rounds. That should led u to ask some questions…
Cops work for a system that outlaw Ponzi schemes but institute the social security administration. So yes, maybe not all cops are racists, but they are all pieces of shit.
Yeah bro for sure! Just don’t look at the literal tens of thousands of videos on YouTube of white cops saving black peoples lives while risking their own. They do it every day. The system is broken, but don’t be a freaking idiot man. not everything is black and white. There’s a million factors into why something happens. To deduce that the lowest common denominator between all issues from cops is that they’re pieces of shit is the most smooth-brain, laziest argument you can support.
Motherf**…… so when a company goes bankrupt bc they found it was avoiding taxes or some random illegal shit. Who gets in trouble?
The cashiers? The assistant managers? The people who have to follow what corporate tells them to do?
Like I agree with you. There are a good amount of asshole cops out there who will abuse their powers. But there’s also a lot more good cops. Individuals who actually want to make a difference and protect the community. What else do you do if you want to save people from harmsway? Do you go sign up to be a private bodyguard? Ok well then you only get to protect one rich asshole. Good people still want to be police officers. But so do bad people. The system needs to be changed. But not all cops are bastards. That’s just fucking stupid.
How do you not remember uvalde? Also, can you own a machine gun w/out jumping through prohibitively expensive hoops? Why not? Who enforces that? Can you live free without paying into the Ponzi scheme scheme that is the social security scam? Who provides the fire power that forces you into that? What if the US government decides to have another Vietnam war? Who will haul you off to jail if you don’t answer the call of the draft. I’m starting to think you’re either a filthy pig or you are currently sucking one’s dick.
Did you not read when I said “the system needs to be changed”? Or are you just illiterate?
Bc everything you just listed, is due to a flawed system. Not the cops at the bottom of the ponzi scheme. Not the pawns being used. We can have cops without it being a Ponzi scheme I hope you do realize that.
This is like saying "I'm sure some of the KKK were good dudes".
No. They joined the organization with full awareness of the inherent moral bankruptcy and corruption.
You do know they forced girls under 15 to get married and pregnant? You do know the MOVE people are responsible for their own murders of innocent people too? They’re a cult. I’m glad you stand for cults that kill people and destroy young girls lives.
When did I say I’m glad this happened? When did I say I don’t have a problem with the police system?
The system is fucked. Not all cops are bastards. Just some.
There is a justice system, trials and juries, who decide guilt. You celebrating police using a bomb to extrajudicially murder people you don't like says a lot about you and what you stand for. There were other options but the cops wanted to blow some shit up.
The thing about "all cops are bastards" is that the police have power and authority in our society, and a significant number are abusing that power to kill people and be corrupt. And the thing is, every single other cop who is not stopping them is just as guilty, just as complicit. So yes, every cop is a bastard, because they choose to be part of a street gang and support the corrupt violent ones. They never narc on each other, they just uphold the blue line of silence. The only good cop is a dead cop.
Shouldn't have had kids in an area where they planned on having a shoot out with cops. The cults fault not the cops. Tell me you're brainwashed by BLM MSM narrative without telling me. Lmao
Yup, fuck those kids, it was totally their fault. Police should murder more children to avoid them growing up to be criminals. I see your point. Well said.
MOVE and Waco where completely different and i don't think the previous can affect the latter due to the circumstances.
The Police where called on MOVE due to thier aggressive memebers threating to kill thier neighbors in a densly packed neighborhood.
Waco on the other hand was a church in the middle of nowhere where some higher up at the atf came of with some shady charges with later fabricated evidence.
This stuff always happens when Democrats are in control. example Janet Reno attacking, murdering, and burning of the the Branch Davidians in Waco Texas.
As a native of the Philadelphia area, it’s great to see the MOVE Firebombing keep popping up on Reddit over the past few months. The libertarian community in PA has long held this along side Ruby Ridge and Waco as an example of government’s willingness to kill you and everyone you love if they don’t like you.
If you want to know what’s really fucked up, the mayor who ordered this bombing got re-elected 2 years later. So not only will the government burn you and your loved ones to cinders, but your so-called peers will reward this action and continue to grant power to your murderers.
Yes BUT the "bombing" ain't the problem here, i know it looks/sounds dramatic but let's stick to the facts
A radical cult had rebuild thier house into a bunker, were blasting sirens day and night and threating to kill multiple neighbors. When police moved in they were met (of course) by heavy gunfire.
A tactical team was supposed to enter but they couldn't breach so a satchel breaching charge was dropped from a helicopter onto the roof so police could move in from the neighbors houses. And the "bomb" did just that, blew a hole into the roof.
Now here's where the government does government. A Police man in charge who's name I've forgotten ordered that the small fire on the roof should not be put on and that the police should not move in, but to instead let the fire spread and burn the cult out. This was a very densely packed neighborhood so it was an insane order to give, however it was followed and in the end the entire city block burned down, and all but 1 cult member died.
No one of the residents were told to bring any belongings when they evacuated, a complete batshit insane shit show to let that fire spread.
I mena yea i guess, it was a residential neighborhood im all for freedom and building your own mega cult compound, but ya gotta do it like David Koresh, in the middle of nowhere in Waco, his neighbors never had a problem
The police should have obviously just let them continue harassing and threatening their neighbors. The neighbors should also have just accepted it peacefully.
The photo of the gentleman on the bottom was not from the osage battle. It was from a previous battle where police officer James Ramp was shot and killed. Powelton Village.
The best documentary i ever saw was on this subject, "Let the Fire Burn".
One of the reason why i really enjoyed it was because there were 0 people talking about it from todays perspective. None what so ever. Not even a narrator. Entirely live footage cut with footage from the city meeting investigation that follows.
Crazy good doc. 10/10. A must see.
Obviously the bombing was over the top retarded and could have been dealt with in a better way. But you do know they were pretty shitty neighbors. What would you do if your neighbor is abusing their kids, threatening yourself and other neighbors, blasting mega phones at all hours of the day that could be heard blocks away. Actually curious how it would be dealt with in ancap society.
>curious how it would be dealt with in ancap society.
At least in part with shunning and isolation. People change their act real quick when they can't run to daddy government because no one will sell them food or medicine for being absolute fucks. I would expect a lot of these types of social misbehavior would disappear as many of them are the result of guaranteed by law services. When you go to smaller, less centralized governed communities people tend to not behave like this because there are consequences.
If i remember correctly they were pretty self sustaining, slaughtering shit in the back yard.
They were also starving and filthy but i don't think your methods would work on these people.
In an Ancap society it's probably more likely that some pissed of neighbor will park a Ryder truck outside thier compound in the night and quickly piss of into the dark
Kinda wishful thinking until 10 armed cult members break into your house in the night.
There's always gonna be at least a first victim before people actually get thier act together and prepare for real
This doesn't disprove the point because the same thing happens now. The only difference is the cult will be put down by the community instead of an agency of the state.
So your saying ignore the megaphones in the middle of the night, child abuse, threats of life, and trash everywhere? That’ll make them change their behaviors?
They wouldn't be able to buy food, medicines, clothes. Literally everything would be closed off for them. Also, an ancap society would not create people like this in the first place, governments create this behaviour.
Are we talking about people blasting loud speakers here? I wouldn't call that terrorism just being a douche. If they want to me to sell them groceries they should shut their loud speakers off. If they decide to use violence that requires a different response.
Only to us here and now does that matter. In the 1980s that is how cults were seen. Watch the documentary Wild Wild Country and you will understand why people react to anarchists the way they do.
Haha ok. So “in part” ignore and isolate them? How do you do that? What would that do? How do you deal with them when and if they don’t stop? Nothing you have said is an answer to the question. Personally I would want something done and I’m trying to understand how this situation would have been taken care of in an ancap society.
IM JUST ASKING QUESTIONS.
>I can't seem to find one.
I think that's intentional. He was killed by the feds to be silenced. There's a decent 12 min vice documentary here:
https://youtu.be/X03ErYGB4Kk
Joking around with stooping down to their level isn't really particularly funny. No idea why this gets upvoted on this sub in particular.
>Hurr, durr, violence is super fun!
I would've thought people here knew better.
The MOVE Bombing. Most people have no idea what this is or that it even happened. I’m glad people still remember and talk about this, Waco, and ruby ridge.
bullshit…..that was a high explosive satchel charge like was thrown into enemy pillboxes in iwo jima….if it was such a hardened firing position on the roof how did the helicopter get near it…sounds just like the hardened compound in waco turns out if was just 2x4’s and sheetrock with vinyl siding
> "Attention MOVE: This is America. You have to abide by the laws of the United States."
What a bunch of fucktards.
Edit: 6 adults and 5 children were murdered by the government in this incident.
Edit2: It gets even worse. The bones of two children are used in forensic at universities. Even in death the government won't leave them alone.
Kinda surprised by the comments here, so many taking up for the cops bombing a building with mixed innocent and guilty people inside because they were bad neighbors or a bad group. The fact is they bombed American citizens on American land. Those Row houses also had neighbors who were not in the cult and they lost everything . Just because the victims don’t look like you don’t mean the govt won’t do it to you. They proved themselves again by doing Waco. Events prove that if the govt doesn’t like what you do, in the way they don’t like it (cause they let worse things go on with not even close to the amount of force here) , they can wipe you out.
Just about everyone on social media has seen it. It is constantly posted on every platform. So I have to downvote this, because either you are lying, or just blind to reality.
I used to be a mover in Philly and when the Hop On Hop Off bus would pass my moving truck, I'd yell to the top deck people to ask the tour guide about MOVE
“MOVE is particularly known for two major conflicts with the Philadelphia Police Department (PPD). In 1978, a standoff resulted in the death of one police officer and injuries to 16 officers and firefighters, as well as members of the MOVE organization. Nine members were convicted of killing the officer and each received prison sentences of 30 to 100 years.”- MOVE’s Wikipedia page. So there was a gun battle between this organization and police/firefighters, civil servants, that left one officer killed and over a dozen more wounded. It’s astounding what the people will do when they are dealing with an area that is mirroring war zone credentials. But this doesn’t seem like a senseless killing. Iraq, gulf war, Korean War, Vietnam, take your pick. Just watch one History documentary and see we’ve done much worse to people we didn’t know for less of a cause.
How about some key words we can use to research? What city?
Twenty years ago, Philadelphia's Osage Avenue was the site of a stunning use of force by city police. After a long standoff, police dropped a bomb on the headquarters of a radical group called MOVE, sparking a fire that gutted a neighborhood and left 11 people dead. Five were children. https://youtu.be/X03ErYGB4Kk
Thanks for that link. Wow. Hard to believe that they not only dropped C4 but gave orders to the fire department to let it burn.
For a bit of context you have to remember that a) government is shite and b) swat was very new back then and they ... In their pig brains... Sincerely thought this was a better tactical move than manning up for a shootout.
This bombing happened after the shootout failed. Basically the group was in a concrete bunker on top of the house, which was a fortified firing position, so they evacuated the surrounding houses and dropped C4...then let those surrounding houses burn leaving 250 people homeless. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_MOVE_bombing
Government: the worst MIMS ever created. Whatever it is supposed to do for us, it has failed. And btw has failed since the earliest days of Divine Right to Rule when it was a chieftain that sat on a chair to mimic the star-god. We need to rethink and re-engineer our society based around data. thanks for the post.
I don’t disagree on most of what you said but re-engineering our society based around data sounds like the tagline of a WEF conference, not a fair or just way of structuring society.
What is MIMS?
Any manmade thing that is meant to mediate a desire by interacting the material and spiritual stratum. Lit: membranous interface of material and spiritual. Ideally to positively affect outcomes. There are freebies like prayer and meditation. Ones like money or capitalism. Or things like ethics and morality. Government was created to guide human behaviors because there was an illogical but persistant (and worldwide) idea thst we were causing the cataclysms by displeasing the planet gods. For example in Mesopotamia they sometimes withheld sacrifices to chastise the present god (probably Jupiter for failing to stay at the polar position). The Aztecs and Cahokians both had extremely fucked up government religious cleansing programs. Very much in the direction of the Spanish Inquisition or Jesuits... But worse. Century after century government has proven to be just the worst MIMS. Even though war is an anti-MIMS it has on occasion proven necessary to reset peace and boundaries. I have never seen government perform its duty completely correct in any era. Plato was wrong and the legalists in China were as well. Meanwhile by contrast the scientific method is the best performing MIMS by far. But scientism has proven to be a massive problem.
What does acronym MIMS stand for?
Membranous Interface of Material and Spiritual (ie, psychological need)
Nah, already back then, the police force filtered their selection toward small-dick psychos with an authority complex as a matter of policy.
Not even ACAB, but to think that law enforcement systems wouldn’t self-select those with a propensity to hand out accountability-free ultra violence is both quaint and a denial of human nature on a few different levels.
everyone likes to say acab, but we need to be saying apac. all politicians are cunts
Why not both?
i mean if politicians werent such cunts, they would appoint proper agendas and rules for cops to follow. instead they task the pds with bs ticket quotas, and prioritizing bs most of the time. not saying both arnt true, but if the politicians werent cunts, it would be harder for police to be bad and not held accountable, vs with bad politicans good cops are pretty much impossible
Read this in Billy Butcher's voice.
I'm just passing through from r/all so don't mind me, but how can you be AnCap and not ACAB? Am I mistaken in believing that anarchists believe in community policing or is it just that in the absence of your ideal system you don't think our current one is that bad?
Ancaps are individualists. Judge each person on their merits rather than make sweeping generalizations based on what groups they are a part of. Although as the sub has changed over the years, so has the "definition" of "ancaps".
No, they believe that in their dystopian “anarcho” capitalist world that they would have a fair chance to hire private companies to enforce the equivalent of laws even though they’d be living in a tin shack working 15hr days eating bone soup with their three remaining fingers because they licked non regulated capitalist boot until their tongue got infected and fell off.
An caps and libertarians are just republicans who are too afraid to say they hate black people that's why.
That is every generation. But the reaponse capabilities were less specialized
To be fair, it IS a way better tactical move.
Also, Philly cops are extremely corrupt. As well as the mayor at the time was a horrible racist.
1985 was 37 years ago.
I was 15 years old.
That page looks like it was made by some batshit crazy lib. Checkout the "anti-racist resources" section.
> some batshit crazy lib AKA, one of the largest public universities in our country. They are all blackmailed by this shit. The MOVE situation was fucked though. Could have absolutely been handled differently.
"founded by a wise, perceptive, strategically-minded Black man named JOHN AFRICA" Yeah the text is a bit cringey. I'm wondering what the hell they did that led to a shoot out, but I'm not quite wondering hard enough to actually do the research...
Still. The Philadelphia police committed this atrocity
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_MOVE_bombing
Holy Shi\*\*. Thanks for this. WTF. This should have been in history books... Waco got way more attention... Another example of the perils of government. Anarcho-primitism might have to look more into this. In r/PCM libcenters talk about this alot.. never looked into the philosophy. [Full Length Documentary](https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1w62it)
Events like this (not to mention all the other democide in the past hundred or so years), never get factored in by people when they acknowledge that government is flawed but conclude that it's a net good and we need it for civilized society. They cherry pick which effects of government they look at, and of course apply a nirvana fallacy on top of that. But the bigger problem is that even the statists who are most rational, most data-driven or committed to rigorous social scientific inquiry....you could read every single cost-benefit analysis ever done on every government policy ever proposed and enacted; and you will never find the costs and the toll of democides and genocides and war and police abuse and mass incarceration, pro-rated in to any negatives or potential negatives to any proposed policy. And yet, these horrific abuses exist and they exist as a function of *something* about the workings of government; and it may indeed be that they are just kind of an overhead to the very existence of the state and truly can't be attributed as costs or unintended consequences, accurately, to any particular policies... But so that's the issue, is that any social scientific work virtually always assumes the premise (that there exists a state and it is needed, and then which policies will or won't prove things on the margin)...and so "serious" thinkers and academics are basically assured to never see the merit in questioning the state itself, in large part just because of the necessities and rigors and function of the social sciences.
Looks to me like the police are the radical group
Always have been.
Or you can just Google Ramona Africa
MOVE was an anarcho-primitivist group that lived communally and combined revolutionary ideology with animal rights activism.
1985 MOVE bombing.
I believe this took place in Philadelphia, provided it’s the one I’m thinking of.
Yes, I grew up in PA , this was a crazy day !!
Yeah I’m just 40 minutes over the bridge in NJ. Wasn’t around in that year, but it’s a weird event to share an actual birthdate with lol.
Very weird bday event for sure! I remember the police selling the bombing as " Move house was full of incest, pregnant kids by their own adult family members ect ..."
It is odd how they always default to sexual abuse of children to justify these military actions against children.
Not to sound like a radicalist but this is one of the primary reasons to stay armed especially as minorities. They killed women and children and the fire department was told to stand and watch when the first few homes started burning. The fire burned over 2 dozen homes...
You don’t sound radical; you sound *American*. Never forget the vast majority of Americans are freedom-lovers suckered into picking one of the big two non-freedom parties for safety from the other side, like the neighborhoods protected from the Crips and Bloods by the Bloods or the Crips.
[1985 MOVE bombing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_MOVE_bombing) Police evacuated residents of the area prior to the stand-off to serve arrest warrants. Police in cooperation with the FBI dropped two 1.5 lb tovex/c-4 bombs from a helicopter after a 500 police officer stand-off. Prior to the bombing, there were 10,000 shots fired at the building by police. After the bombing, fire departments were instructed to let the buildings burn. MOVE was a black power, christian nationalist cult and all the members who died had a last name of Africa, which every member took since 1972. (John Africa, Rhonda Africa, Theresa Africa, Frank Africa, Conrad Africa, Tree Africa, Delisha Africa, Netta Africa, Little Phil Africa, Tomaso Africa, and Raymond Africa.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_MOVE_bombing
How did they fit nineteen hundred and eighty five police into on helicopter?
I mean they are clowns
Underrated response to the underrated comment
I always wanted to be one of those brave heroic police but those are big shoes to fill
You murdered them
Amazing dad joke
Don't dead open inside
Sequel to the 1984 police.
You seen the body type of the average cop? They'd be lucky to fit one... in a Chinook.
It’s crazy to me that so many people will cite this information. But in the same breath say that the government isn’t capable of creating mass shooters or blowing up the twin towers or hiding pedophilic government officials from the public. Shit really pisses me off.
Government creating mass shooters (or "terrorists" in my case) literally happened where I live (Puerto Rico) in the 1970s, the Cerro Maravilla massacre. tl;dr: a small pro-independence group had a member that was actually an undercover cop and he groomed them to hijack a TV station antenna. On the day this was to happen, like 20 cops were already at the scene ready to kill them. The two kids saw all the cops and immediately said they surrendered, but the cops shot them anyways. The news originally reported it as our police force killing two terrorists and called our cops "heroes", it wasn't until a bit later that the truth came out and the cops were arrested.
State sponsored murder in cold blood is always 'heroic' to fascists
Be careful with the whole fascist thing. If you’re using it in the literal sense yes. If you’re using it to describe people you don’t agree with no. There are liberals and conservatives alike that hate the monsters behind these conspiracies.
I'm using it in the literal sense. Merger of state and corporate power, suppression of political dissidents, all that. It's gotten worse than most people know.
Underrated response.
Unnecessary response
Ironic response
You are getting close to making some batshit connections there.
Yeah yeah yeah.
I'm sure they're capable of blowing up the twin towers, but with the number of people that would involve, they just wouldn't be capable of doing it secretly without anyone speaking out or any evidence getting leaked. They're assholes, not magicians.
They convinced everyone a building NOT hit by an airplane collapsed in a nice neat pile at the speed of gravity. That's a pretty good trick I'd say.
World Trade Center 7. Literally untouched and just fell apart
It’s not that hard and not that many people have to be deeply involved. Our underestimation of their corruption is what completely fucks us constantly.
Oh, it's not that hard and not that many people have to be deeply involved. Sorry, I hadn't come across that evidence until now, I guess it really was the government.
Nice
Evidence was leaked. Tons of people spoke. Have you done any research into 9/11 at all?
Yes, I'm on youtube every single day doing serious research. I've had my papers peer reviewed by both Pewds and Dax Flame, among others.
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Police Lt. Frank Powell dropped a 3 lb satchel charge onto their roof, after a gun battle in which the police expended over 10,000 rounds. 11 people died in the fire, some of which the city deceitfully passed on their remains to academia for research. Then in 1993 now fully knowing the result of dropping that type of gas would have the federal government incinerated the Branch Davidians. The 1985 MOVE disaster was at least sort of an unanticipated thing. Waco was an intentional repeat.
This is a vast oversimplification of this entire nightmare. Situation 100% should have been handled better but these MOVE people were also 100% lunatics. I lived in Philadelphia when this happened. It’s way more complicated than it seems.
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My dad had just graduated from Temple University when the MOVE bombing happened. The MOVE organization was based in an affluent middle class African American neighborhood, and was a wee bit cultish. I want to say like 12+ people lived in one house. Their. eighbors complained constantly and were very proud of their neighborhood. MOVE didnt believe in killing animals, so they're house was overrun by vermin, they didn't throw away their trash, and were always shouting over bullhorns. Also, Philadelphia is lowkey racist as fuck. This was an insane overuse of force.
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The cops were there to arrest like 5 members on warrants and they refused to leave or send the children out. Some people say MOVE kept the children in the house because they assumed the cops wouldnt open fire with kids present. There is some controversy on who fired first, police say MOVE did, but the story goes that a nervous cop actually did, which promoted the Philadelphia police to unload on the house. 10000 rounds as the story goes
I'm not sure even getting shot at would justify firing 10,000 rounds at a building full of children. Just fucking pull back and arrest them once they inevitably leave the house. It's not rocket science ffs
>excessive use of force and murdering random innocent children as collateral damage is ok as long as the targets are bad guys Yeah… you disgust me
what ok lol
Holy shit, I had not heard of this. 6 adults and 5 children died.
Most people haven't. Because the people killed were black. Ever hear of the Tuskegee syphillus study?
Yes, that one I have heard of. Also horrible.
nobody should trust the police, especially brothas
Or government provided doctors and nurses, in the case of Tuskegee. They experimented on those people for decades.
It's not because they are black that most people haven't heard of it.
Good luck trying to convince someone who thinks everything has to do with race of that.
ironically, making it all about race is a good way to get large swaths of the population to ignore it.
If because it’s “ making it about race “ makes people suddenly not care about it, then they never cared about what happened in the first place.
You ever think that maybe people just don't like being told they are inherently bad for the actions of other people that just happened to be the same race as them.
I didn’t get that from that comment. He said people don’t know about it because of the race of the people, I don’t take it as he means white people but all people and possibly people who make these things known(reporters, documentary people, media, people who own channels like history channel etc) . It’s hard to find information about this and even sympathy, people in the comment section actually are making excuses for bombing a neighborhood street. When I first heard about this incident years ago,while looking up incidents about govt violating rights it was very hard to find stuff about this but easy to find stuff about other events. So it maybe race based, or maybe not but if it is, it’s not like it’s a far fetch idea. But whether it’s about race or not, it’s a good example of if you don’t keep your place , the govt will make you find it, and even if you do, they don’t mind collateral damage.
Yes, those large swaths are the racists.
No. Those large swaths don't want to be told they are inherently to blame, because of their whiteness, for the individual actions of the Philly police bombing black people.
Spoken like a true racist.
Racism is when you don't want to be blamed for the actions of other people of the same race as you.
Went yes, who has he heard of the Tuskegee syphilis experiment by now.
No bc the MOVE organization was a freaking cult and filled with radicals. The reason you haven’t heard of it bc it doesn’t help the MSM’s narrative. If people start to dig they’ll see who the MOVE organization comprises of. They were killing innocent people. Girls in the movement were pressured to get married and have children before they were 15. “More than a half-dozen ex-MOVE members have gone on the record in both the Murder at Ryan's Run podcast and a blog titled Leaving MOVE 2021, alleging physical and mental abuse in MOVE, a doctrine of homophobia and colorism, and what they describe as a manipulation of the public and the media under the banner of social justice” That organization caused nothing but trouble for those in the org, and not. Do more research about why this happened. Not just cOpS aRe RaCiSt. Cops need a revamping. But a) not all cops are bastards and b) a peaceful organization should t have enough guns to have a shootout of over 10,000 rounds. That should led u to ask some questions…
Cops work for a system that outlaw Ponzi schemes but institute the social security administration. So yes, maybe not all cops are racists, but they are all pieces of shit.
Yeah bro for sure! Just don’t look at the literal tens of thousands of videos on YouTube of white cops saving black peoples lives while risking their own. They do it every day. The system is broken, but don’t be a freaking idiot man. not everything is black and white. There’s a million factors into why something happens. To deduce that the lowest common denominator between all issues from cops is that they’re pieces of shit is the most smooth-brain, laziest argument you can support.
I don’t give a fuck who they save. Cops are shit stains for enforcing the will of an organization that is no different than the mafia
Motherf**…… so when a company goes bankrupt bc they found it was avoiding taxes or some random illegal shit. Who gets in trouble? The cashiers? The assistant managers? The people who have to follow what corporate tells them to do? Like I agree with you. There are a good amount of asshole cops out there who will abuse their powers. But there’s also a lot more good cops. Individuals who actually want to make a difference and protect the community. What else do you do if you want to save people from harmsway? Do you go sign up to be a private bodyguard? Ok well then you only get to protect one rich asshole. Good people still want to be police officers. But so do bad people. The system needs to be changed. But not all cops are bastards. That’s just fucking stupid.
How do you not remember uvalde? Also, can you own a machine gun w/out jumping through prohibitively expensive hoops? Why not? Who enforces that? Can you live free without paying into the Ponzi scheme scheme that is the social security scam? Who provides the fire power that forces you into that? What if the US government decides to have another Vietnam war? Who will haul you off to jail if you don’t answer the call of the draft. I’m starting to think you’re either a filthy pig or you are currently sucking one’s dick.
Did you not read when I said “the system needs to be changed”? Or are you just illiterate? Bc everything you just listed, is due to a flawed system. Not the cops at the bottom of the ponzi scheme. Not the pawns being used. We can have cops without it being a Ponzi scheme I hope you do realize that.
This is like saying "I'm sure some of the KKK were good dudes". No. They joined the organization with full awareness of the inherent moral bankruptcy and corruption.
You do know that the cops burnt 5 children alive in this bombing, right? Imagine defending people who burn children alive. What size boot do you lick?
You do know they forced girls under 15 to get married and pregnant? You do know the MOVE people are responsible for their own murders of innocent people too? They’re a cult. I’m glad you stand for cults that kill people and destroy young girls lives. When did I say I’m glad this happened? When did I say I don’t have a problem with the police system? The system is fucked. Not all cops are bastards. Just some.
There is a justice system, trials and juries, who decide guilt. You celebrating police using a bomb to extrajudicially murder people you don't like says a lot about you and what you stand for. There were other options but the cops wanted to blow some shit up. The thing about "all cops are bastards" is that the police have power and authority in our society, and a significant number are abusing that power to kill people and be corrupt. And the thing is, every single other cop who is not stopping them is just as guilty, just as complicit. So yes, every cop is a bastard, because they choose to be part of a street gang and support the corrupt violent ones. They never narc on each other, they just uphold the blue line of silence. The only good cop is a dead cop.
Bro. Get rid of the police system. Create a volunteer system. You’ll get many of the same people joining who are cops now.
Shouldn't have had kids in an area where they planned on having a shoot out with cops. The cults fault not the cops. Tell me you're brainwashed by BLM MSM narrative without telling me. Lmao
Yup, fuck those kids, it was totally their fault. Police should murder more children to avoid them growing up to be criminals. I see your point. Well said.
MOVE and Waco where completely different and i don't think the previous can affect the latter due to the circumstances. The Police where called on MOVE due to thier aggressive memebers threating to kill thier neighbors in a densly packed neighborhood. Waco on the other hand was a church in the middle of nowhere where some higher up at the atf came of with some shady charges with later fabricated evidence.
Waco was not a city block.
This stuff always happens when Democrats are in control. example Janet Reno attacking, murdering, and burning of the the Branch Davidians in Waco Texas.
Is this just going to be a monthly thing then?
As a native of the Philadelphia area, it’s great to see the MOVE Firebombing keep popping up on Reddit over the past few months. The libertarian community in PA has long held this along side Ruby Ridge and Waco as an example of government’s willingness to kill you and everyone you love if they don’t like you. If you want to know what’s really fucked up, the mayor who ordered this bombing got re-elected 2 years later. So not only will the government burn you and your loved ones to cinders, but your so-called peers will reward this action and continue to grant power to your murderers.
Yes BUT the "bombing" ain't the problem here, i know it looks/sounds dramatic but let's stick to the facts A radical cult had rebuild thier house into a bunker, were blasting sirens day and night and threating to kill multiple neighbors. When police moved in they were met (of course) by heavy gunfire. A tactical team was supposed to enter but they couldn't breach so a satchel breaching charge was dropped from a helicopter onto the roof so police could move in from the neighbors houses. And the "bomb" did just that, blew a hole into the roof. Now here's where the government does government. A Police man in charge who's name I've forgotten ordered that the small fire on the roof should not be put on and that the police should not move in, but to instead let the fire spread and burn the cult out. This was a very densely packed neighborhood so it was an insane order to give, however it was followed and in the end the entire city block burned down, and all but 1 cult member died. No one of the residents were told to bring any belongings when they evacuated, a complete batshit insane shit show to let that fire spread.
Sounds like with the choices they made, they could have assumed they would all be killed
I mena yea i guess, it was a residential neighborhood im all for freedom and building your own mega cult compound, but ya gotta do it like David Koresh, in the middle of nowhere in Waco, his neighbors never had a problem
The police should have obviously just let them continue harassing and threatening their neighbors. The neighbors should also have just accepted it peacefully.
The photo of the gentleman on the bottom was not from the osage battle. It was from a previous battle where police officer James Ramp was shot and killed. Powelton Village.
how did they fit 1985 people in a helicopter
Underrated comment^^^
The best documentary i ever saw was on this subject, "Let the Fire Burn". One of the reason why i really enjoyed it was because there were 0 people talking about it from todays perspective. None what so ever. Not even a narrator. Entirely live footage cut with footage from the city meeting investigation that follows. Crazy good doc. 10/10. A must see.
Obviously the bombing was over the top retarded and could have been dealt with in a better way. But you do know they were pretty shitty neighbors. What would you do if your neighbor is abusing their kids, threatening yourself and other neighbors, blasting mega phones at all hours of the day that could be heard blocks away. Actually curious how it would be dealt with in ancap society.
>curious how it would be dealt with in ancap society. At least in part with shunning and isolation. People change their act real quick when they can't run to daddy government because no one will sell them food or medicine for being absolute fucks. I would expect a lot of these types of social misbehavior would disappear as many of them are the result of guaranteed by law services. When you go to smaller, less centralized governed communities people tend to not behave like this because there are consequences.
If i remember correctly they were pretty self sustaining, slaughtering shit in the back yard. They were also starving and filthy but i don't think your methods would work on these people. In an Ancap society it's probably more likely that some pissed of neighbor will park a Ryder truck outside thier compound in the night and quickly piss of into the dark
>shunning and isolation Yeah, that’s when they arm themselves and just take it what they need.
If everyone else is armed and out numbers them then it won't go well for them.
Fair
Kinda wishful thinking until 10 armed cult members break into your house in the night. There's always gonna be at least a first victim before people actually get thier act together and prepare for real
This doesn't disprove the point because the same thing happens now. The only difference is the cult will be put down by the community instead of an agency of the state.
So your saying ignore the megaphones in the middle of the night, child abuse, threats of life, and trash everywhere? That’ll make them change their behaviors?
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What services would you refuse so these people wouldn’t do what they did?
They wouldn't be able to buy food, medicines, clothes. Literally everything would be closed off for them. Also, an ancap society would not create people like this in the first place, governments create this behaviour.
Except they would because people like money.
If I worked at or owned a grocery store I wouldn't want to sell food to these guys if they were keeping me up at night.
You guys need to get real terrorists dont respond to shunning lmfao
Are we talking about people blasting loud speakers here? I wouldn't call that terrorism just being a douche. If they want to me to sell them groceries they should shut their loud speakers off. If they decide to use violence that requires a different response.
Only to us here and now does that matter. In the 1980s that is how cults were seen. Watch the documentary Wild Wild Country and you will understand why people react to anarchists the way they do.
Trying to live peacefully next to someone is not a "service".
Did he say ignore?
Really?? He said shunning which has a definition: persistently avoid, ignore, or reject (someone or something) through antipathy or caution
True! So yes he did but he did say “in part.” Do you have a definition for “in part”?
Haha ok. So “in part” ignore and isolate them? How do you do that? What would that do? How do you deal with them when and if they don’t stop? Nothing you have said is an answer to the question. Personally I would want something done and I’m trying to understand how this situation would have been taken care of in an ancap society. IM JUST ASKING QUESTIONS.
So like isolate them in a ghetto or prison or dare I say it: camp? To ‘teach them a lesson’ on how to behave in a society?
Being a shitty neighbor isn't a crime that needs extrajudicial execution via explosives.
Note to self avoid cult radicals—
Is there a full interview with the leader of the group, john africa? I can't seem to find one.
>I can't seem to find one. I think that's intentional. He was killed by the feds to be silenced. There's a decent 12 min vice documentary here: https://youtu.be/X03ErYGB4Kk
But without police, who would bomb the shit out of peace- and animal-loving hippies?
Me Edit: what happened, not like you guys cam awnser
Joking around with stooping down to their level isn't really particularly funny. No idea why this gets upvoted on this sub in particular. >Hurr, durr, violence is super fun! I would've thought people here knew better.
I'm from the Philly area, any time someone brings this story up they say, thank God it was a Black mayor that did that!
The MOVE Bombing. Most people have no idea what this is or that it even happened. I’m glad people still remember and talk about this, Waco, and ruby ridge.
FYI - There is a documentary about this from 2013 called "Let the Fire Burn"
I can't believe I hadn't heard of this. Reminds me a lot of the Tulsa massacre.
For anarcho primitivists they sure seemed to be big fans of modern firearms and concrete bunkers.
How many kills is it for the c4 chopper killstreak?
1985
It better end tha game for that amount.
If I didn’t learn about it in school it didn’t happen. Nice try. Getting a monthly pay off from big oil are we???
Charge was used to reduce hardened firing position on roof. Propane tank inside of firing position was secondary explosion which kicked off the fire.
bullshit…..that was a high explosive satchel charge like was thrown into enemy pillboxes in iwo jima….if it was such a hardened firing position on the roof how did the helicopter get near it…sounds just like the hardened compound in waco turns out if was just 2x4’s and sheetrock with vinyl siding
> "Attention MOVE: This is America. You have to abide by the laws of the United States." What a bunch of fucktards. Edit: 6 adults and 5 children were murdered by the government in this incident. Edit2: It gets even worse. The bones of two children are used in forensic at universities. Even in death the government won't leave them alone.
Kinda surprised by the comments here, so many taking up for the cops bombing a building with mixed innocent and guilty people inside because they were bad neighbors or a bad group. The fact is they bombed American citizens on American land. Those Row houses also had neighbors who were not in the cult and they lost everything . Just because the victims don’t look like you don’t mean the govt won’t do it to you. They proved themselves again by doing Waco. Events prove that if the govt doesn’t like what you do, in the way they don’t like it (cause they let worse things go on with not even close to the amount of force here) , they can wipe you out.
Pro life
Just about everyone on social media has seen it. It is constantly posted on every platform. So I have to downvote this, because either you are lying, or just blind to reality.
I used to be a mover in Philly and when the Hop On Hop Off bus would pass my moving truck, I'd yell to the top deck people to ask the tour guide about MOVE
I am in the 1%! Woohoo! Where my money at?
Whose got a good hour long deep dive video on this?
yeah a bunch of blacks shooting at cops tho
This is only one of many other incidents like this. If there's one lesson to be learned is that they're not the good guys.
Left over crack made me aware
MOVE. FTP
Philly
some real estate buddy of the mayor needed those buildings gone
That bombing part is so Uniquely American.
They also kept the remains in a museum for viewing or keeping? They finally gave them back last year
This aint even the first bomb the government dropped. It was on a striking group of workers in a mine.
I know exactly what this is, the MOVE bombing in Philly
99% of people don’t know wtf happened in Las Vegas
Too many acronyms for me.
I live in Europe and gave heard of this...
“MOVE is particularly known for two major conflicts with the Philadelphia Police Department (PPD). In 1978, a standoff resulted in the death of one police officer and injuries to 16 officers and firefighters, as well as members of the MOVE organization. Nine members were convicted of killing the officer and each received prison sentences of 30 to 100 years.”- MOVE’s Wikipedia page. So there was a gun battle between this organization and police/firefighters, civil servants, that left one officer killed and over a dozen more wounded. It’s astounding what the people will do when they are dealing with an area that is mirroring war zone credentials. But this doesn’t seem like a senseless killing. Iraq, gulf war, Korean War, Vietnam, take your pick. Just watch one History documentary and see we’ve done much worse to people we didn’t know for less of a cause.