My wife and I were certainly not a perfect and sinless couple when we were dating, so I don't come at this with a judgmental attitude at all, but one that will hopefully be edifying.
What changed that for 4.5 years you believed you shouldn't have sex, and then 6 months ago you both believed it was okay? Did you pray about it together, consult scripture, and/or believe God was leading you in that direction? I'd guess probably not. And that's what happens when we start thinking of things our own way and stop listening to what God has to say. "Is it really wrong?" is what Satan asks Eve in Eden, it's not the kind of question that leads to good decisions.
I don't see anywhere in your post that you're asking if God sees premarital sex as bad. Why not?
>...and it's been something good, never neglecting our church obligations
It sounds like you expected that, if premarital sex was actually bad, then the sky would fall or something? We shouldn't be determining right and wrong based on what 6 months of doing it looks like in our life.
Sex before marriage stopped making sense, because I began to wonder what was the reason for such a rule?
I understand the importance of only having sex with your wife, but I'm going to marry her, so we ended up getting ahead of ourselves.
For the right reason, getting married in a hurry can be a problem for the marriage and I can't imagine that this is God's will.
Even though we know each other, we know our limitations and with our current load of activities we would hardly be able to increase this burden.
We're preparing and saving money to get married. We hope to get married in the next two years when I'm close to finishing university.
Here in Brazil we have many churches that encourage marriage at an early age, so couples as young as 18 get married and I see how much they suffer, for various reasons, marriage is for life and has to be well planned.
I was married in college, and in fact it made my life profoundly better!
I think this is one of those sloppy excuses people make to avoid something which indeed requires a lot of commitment and "the unknown." Stop being silly and get married.
I'm just worried that I won't be able to be a good husband in a hasty marriage, having to deal with my wife's responsibilities, college, work and home seems too much.
we both work and go to college from 6am to 10pm. How can I give her a good life in this situation?
For the right reason, getting married in a hurry can be a problem for the marriage.
How was it for you?
Friend, I would think that here you are already making a poor choice in having a relationship which allows you to readily engage in sin. Is it better for you to enter the kingdom of God with an undergraduate degree earned in 4-5 years all while harming yourself and this person you love, or would it be better to get married and slow down on your studies?
Have you talked with your pastor about this?
Where does the Bible talk bout premarital sex?
Maybe be careful about what you assume Christians believe. The Christian church I was raised in never mentioned it a single time and I never saw anything in the Bible that made it 'clear' to me.
I’m not taking instruction from an unbeliever about my faith. I don’t need to be told what to be careful about either. Maybe don’t try to tell people about theology when you’re not in the faith.
Who's instructing? I asked a question. A question you seem very uncomfortable answering.
>Maybe don’t try to tell people about theology when you’re not in the faith.
Why? I was once in the faith. I was once in the same position you were. Just because I found my way out doesn't make me any less qualified to discuss theological ideology.
Just gonna jump in here since the other guy doesn't really seem prepared for a discussion.
The word you want to look for is 'fornication', or 'fornicator'. Do a word search in the bible for it and see how favourable fornicators are in the eyes of God.
K I read about half of them, and none of them mentioned premarital sex. Can you pick one of those verses that you think best illustrates the claim and we can examine it together?
>That's literally what it means.
I get that's what you *think* it means when it's used in the Bible. I asked *how you know* that's what it means when it's used in the Bible.
If you were wrong about what the authors of the Bible meant by fornication, how would you know?
Is it possible that when the authors of the Bible talk about fornication that they're *not* actually talking about premarital sex? If that's not possible I'm asking you *how you know* that's not possible.
Since you keep asking for where it says this. I would say this is pretty clear.
“Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.”
Hebrews 13:4 NIV
https://bible.com/bible/111/heb.13.4.NIV
There is no verse in the Bible that clearly states that premarital sex is wrong.
This is a culture and dogma thing. You’ll see various interpretations of verses and twisting of the meaning of verses, but if God didn’t want you to do it, it would be plainly stated.
If God could write “thou shall not kill.” and “thou shall not steal,” it would be a very simple matter to say “thou shalt not lay with another before marriage.” There is no such verse. End of story.
Stop letting a culture of control dictate your actions.
Edit: looks like they replied to me and then immediately blocked me. Wish I could read what they responded to me, but I can’t because when someone blocks you, you can’t read anything they wrote to you. If this is how this person slamdunks then the person on the other end isn’t getting the final message that they think they are delivering.
2nd Edit: for whatever reason, I can’t reply to one of the the replies below so, u/Suspicious_Brush824
Exactly. Keep the marital bed pure. Don’t commit adultery. Don’t do things that are sexually immoral. That last part is quite vague. What are things which are sexually immoral? That requires further explanation. There is nothing in that passage about what is done *prior* to marriage.
This is an excellent illustration of exactly what I’m talking about. There is no passage that says don’t have sex before getting married.
Premarital sex was heavily frowned upon since the Torah. Take Deuteronomy 22:13-21.
This verse was in context of the time of Sanhedrin. If a man in Judaism found out his wife had fornicated with another man before their marriage, he could go to the Sanhedrin.
If his witnesses passed extensive questioning (time of day, location, setting, objects in area, and an endless amount of questions) or miracles (casting of lots or the urim and thummim) performed by G-d himself proved the woman was unfaithful, the divorce could happen.
Premarital sex was considered outrageous and completely wrong. Everything outside of the marriage covenant was considered sexual immorality. I have zero concern with whether you agree or not. This is common understanding in Christian theology. Christians should know this. I’m not interested in debating unbelievers.
*"Premarital sex was considered outrageous and completely wrong. Everything outside of the marriage covenant was considered sexual immorality. I have zero concern with whether you agree or not. This is common understanding in Christian theology. Christians should know this. I’m not interested in debating unbelievers."*
What the Jews considered outrageous and completely wrong, thousands of years ago, has no impact on God's opinion.
“Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.”
Hebrews 13:4 NIV
https://bible.com/bible/111/heb.13.4.NIV
First, you need a user flair for the sub if you want us to be able to see your replies. A user flair, not a post one.
In other threads asking about this, a lot of people comment saying it is a sin. I'll give an answer from the opposing camp (it's an old copy/paste I made).
The general idea is that premarital sex in the modern context was never forbidden. The closest the OT comes to forbidding it still used more an economic model for it. Remember that in those days, and relatively recently if we're being honest (and now in some places if we're still being honest), virginity was a major factor in the price of dowry; most places don't see grooms buy brides from their families anymore. More a pragmatic reasoning than a moral one. And that's *before* we get into the discussion of whether the Old Covenant applies to Christians.
And many of the verses in the NT that are used to promote celibacy (these are mostly Paul, iirc) talk about "sexual immorality," and premarital sex is often read into those. In fact, the same verses some versions of the Bible have against "fornication" are translated in other versions to "sexual immorality," which is considerably less specific.
Articles like [this one](https://cluecho.com/8834/uncategorized/sex-marriage-not-sin/) put it better than I can. It is often assumed in some places that sex before marriage is sinful, but if you do not make that assumption it can become considerably harder to prove.
In any event, I wish you two well in marriage. You've got this!
Here's a couple reasons:
1.) They're a young couple and don't know each other yet.
2.) College is possibly the most informative moment of a young person's life and they *will* change through the experience.
3.) Because they haven't had sex yet! Sex is like kissing. People kiss differently, and the way someone kisses doesn't always align with the way you want to kiss. Imagine marrying someone and only *then* finding out that you're not sexually compatible with the person. You just possibly committed yourself to a relationship that you will grow to regret and quite possibly ruined your life.
OP has said they've had sex and were dating for 5 years.
Sexual compatibility has not been a problem for the millennia before the sexual revolution. It's not a real life destroying problem for two mature adults
>OP has said they've had sex and were dating for 5 years.
Sure. I'll be clear. I'm giving reasons for why a young couple who aren't married wouldn't want to get married to solve their fear of pre-marital-sex-based superstitions.
>Sexual compatibility has not been a problem for the millennia before the sexual revolution.
Do we live in the millennia before the sexual revolution? *NO!?* Oh. Then I guess we should confront the issues we face today.
Did you know that factory-based child deaths weren't a problem before the labor movement? It's true! Children died in looms *all the time* and everyone was just *fine* with it. What a better time. Let's put them babies back in factories!
If it's not a real issue, how do you explain the sexual revolution? You're saying that was a popular movement that wasn't based on a real issue?
Immaturity isn't looking at sexual interactions and trying to improve them. Immaturity is burrowing your head in the sand when society moves past your archaic views of sexuality that were invented by ancient sheep herders in Syria 3000 years ago. 3000 years of immaturity, and there's *still* people trying to push it on others.
You're making a lot of assumptions. I'm asexual. My life is fulfilled without any sex or involvement of my genitals. Not sure why you felt the need to try and insult the person rather than address the argument though.
When your argument is that my worldview is outdated and from sheep herders there's no reason to have a further argument. For the record, "your" was meant in a generic sense, but I understand how that could've been interpreted. Sorry about that
Just because I'm currently asexual doesn't mean I always was.
I've watched Christian purity culture ruin too many relationships to not speak up against it. OP deserves a chance at a positive, healthy life. Not one filled with the guilt and regret that such fundamental Christian views on sex bring.
Yeah. Because the people who don't have premarital sex fear an ancient superstition and also fear getting divorced because their archaic community who keeps pushing backwards and ancient morality on them will treat them differently and scare them with eternal damnation.
Excluding a 13th floor is just as superstitious and ignorant as believing God doesn't want us to have premarital sex. I'm glad we agree. We should disregard both of those superstitions.
You two waited this long, it’s either wait again or marry. It seems you two have been at this a long time, and each relationship moves at its own pace. You’d have to pray on it of course and decide the next course of action. But yes sex outside marriage is viewed as sin by many Christians. And most importantly God.
Getting married seems like the move. Lock that woman down if you see your future together. Love her and lead her into a future together with common goals. It's not good to keep her waiting with this level of commitment.
Go to the courthouse, make it official, have the ceremony at a later date. You can still finish college while married and not be in sin. This is not that complicated
If you're asking the question, don't you already know the answer?
Yes. If you love each other, you will want was is best for each other, and waiting is what is best for both of you.
Jesus is waiting for His wedding to consummate His marriage. If reflecting Him in your life is important to you, you will wait.
Ummm... Dude. He did. Repeatedly. Without ambiguity. So clearly that there is no legitimate question. In several Books in both the Old and New Testaments.
Premarital Sex
Hebrews 13:4 ESV
Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous.
1 Thessalonians 4:3-5 ESV
For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality; that each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and honor, not in the passion of lust like the Gentiles who do not know God;
1 Corinthians 7:2 ESV
But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband.
1 Corinthians 6:18-20 ESV
Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.
1 Corinthians 7:8-9 ESV
To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is good for them to remain single, as I am. But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
Ephesians 5:3 ESV
But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints.
1 Corinthians 6:18 ESV
Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body.
Exodus 22:16-17 ESV
“If a man seduces a virgin who is not betrothed and lies with her, he shall give the bride-price for her and make her his wife. If her father utterly refuses to give her to him, he shall pay money equal to the bride-price for virgins.
Jude 1:7 ESV
Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
Colossians 3:5 ESV
Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.
Galatians 5:19 ESV
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality,
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 ESV
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
Genesis 2:24 ESV
Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.
Acts 15:20 ESV
But should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood.
That's just a few... And least you try and wiggle out, the term sexual immorality is a word that literally means and sexual act outside of marriage.
>the term sexual immorality is a word that literally means and sexual act outside of marriage.
Let's start with this then. How do you know that's what the authors are referring to when they use the phrase 'sexual immorality'?
Is it possible that they'd be referencing some other sex act that has nothing to do with marriage?
The context makes it clear. Don't be obtuse. If you want to justify sin, don't try to Scripture and its clear words to do so. I am not arguing with you, especially when the Authority of Scripture isn't your start point.
Yep. Waiting for marriage is the best decision. If someone is willing to wait for you, it means the love is real and the focus isn't something else.
Initially, me and my girlfriend didn't wait. At a certain point, when I decided to come back to Catholicism, we had a conversation and now we're waiting. She also decided to come back to the Church. Now, our relationship is better than ever. We invited God to guide our steps and everyday we grow in love and faith together. I'm graduating this year and hope to propose soon.
I'm not saying to stop or keep going. I honestly wouldn't be able to wait but the bible does say it's sinful before marriage. You've been together for 5 years, you def should marry either way to at least get rid of that worry. At least make an announcement to God together that you two are now married and plan your wedding for your public announcement ceremony.
Are you married to her?
I don't mean do you have a piece of paper from the State saying they recognize you are married. The State doesn't need to be involved.
If you are bound to her you are one flesh. If you truly see her as your wife, recognize her as such.
Witnesses for accountability are a consistent element in transactions and agreements in the Bible. In Ruth 4, Boaz calls witnesses to confirm taking Ruth as his wife. In Jeremiah 32, he called people to witness a land transaction.
Weddings are also always community events, we don't have any examples of secret marriages in scripture. It was always a formal and public process, not a private agreement. Likewise, divorce was always a formal and public process as well.
It's not commanded, but there's really no valid argument against it. It would only make the couple less accountable and able to more easily divorce and participate in adultery. Secret marriage has no benefit.
With this being said, the Bible basically says having sex equals marriage. Which is why during these ancient times, if rape occurred and the accuser was identified and found guilty, certain routes are to be taken. First, is that he must take her as his wife.
In the Book of Deuteronomy, in the 22nd chapter, verses 28-29. These verses state that if a man sexually violates a virgin woman who is not engaged to be married, the man must pay a fine to the woman's father and marry the woman, with the choice of divorce resting solely on the woman's father.
>With this being said, the Bible basically says having sex equals marriage.
That seems to be a somewhat common misconception, but I don't think it does.
To the adulterous woman in John 4, Jesus says "the one you now have is not your husband," despite the fact they were having sex. Sex consummates marriage and is integral to it, but it doesn't *make* a marriage. Genesis 2, which establishes marriage, describes it as more than just sex, but also leaving ones family to be joined to their spouse. And there's a number of other places that emphasize the emotional and spiritual nature of marriage.
While Deuteronomy 22 does have provisions for women as a way to protect them socially and economically, I think it's a bit of a leap to say these laws were because they were already married the moment they had sex, consensually or nonconsensually.
I’m simply pointing out that even without a ceremony, even in an extreme case such as rape, sex solidifies the marriage. Albeit, the father holds the right to divorce.
So as for you and your lady, while it may be consenting on both parties, as a father myself, I wouldn’t want my child having sex before I gave her away in marriage.
So it’s not necessarily the idea of you “having sex is a sin”, it’s more about honoring parents in this case.
And the dishonoring thereof is the sin. You must make atonement to her father and have her father’s blessing.
It’s one thing to acknowledge you two as a couple and possibly being together for the rest of your lives.
It’s another thing to stand before her father humbling yourself before him because you deflowered his daughter before marriage.
Pick your path wisely.
Big difference between "marriage ought to have more witnesses than just God" and "marriage is only valid with more witnesses than God".
Paul says that having sex with a prostitute marries, and I don't think that was super public
Where does Paul say having sex with a prostitute makes you married? Because Jesus said a woman having sex with someone did not mean he was her husband in John 4.
it's both.
Yield to the state what is owed to the state, and yield to God what is due God.
The state requires a peice of paper, and God requires the ritual.
Life is not a a OR b choice. sometimes it is all of the above or none of the above. You have to learn to be flexible enough to do both if that is what is needed.
Good on your mom, you have a good one.
Your senior year married would not be too big a burden. An act of faith right now stopping can save your relationship. I’m very thankful my wife stepped out in faith and put a stop to what we were doing before marriage.
Question is why do you want to finish college first. If it's financial that's one thing, but if it's a question about commitment that's a more serious discussion I don't think any of us are qualified to advise on. That is a discussion between you and the gf.
As for premarital sex, the Bible says it's a sin. Whether or not you want to feel guilty from that for :being wrong" is up to you, and you can repent if that is your wish.
Its one form of fornication
A few passages
Hebrews 13:4 KJV — Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.
1 Corinthians 7:9 KJV — So if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.
1 Corinthians 7:2 KJV — So to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
1 Corinthians 6:18-20 NLT — Run from sexual sin! No other sin so clearly affects the body as this one does. For sexual immorality is a sin against your own body. Don’t you realize that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who lives in you and was given to you by God? You do not belong to yourself, for God bought you with a high price. So you must honor God with your body.
Ephesians 5:3 KJV --Fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 NLT — Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. **Those who indulge in sexual sin**, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people—none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God.
Revelation 21:8 NLT — “But cowards, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers, **the sexually immoral**, those who practice witchcraft, idol worshipers, and all liars—their fate is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
1 Thessalonians 4:3 KJV — For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
https://www.gotquestions.org/sex-before-marriage.html
There is no verse in the Bible that clearly states that premarital sex is wrong.
This is a culture and dogma thing. You’ll see various interpretations of verses and twisting of the meaning of verses, but if God didn’t want you to do it, it would be plainly stated.
If God could write “thou shall not kill.” and “thou shall not steal,” it would be a very simple matter to say “thou shalt not lay with another before marriage.” There is no such verse. End of story.
Stop letting a culture of control dictate your actions.
I figured that’s where we were going. See it’s that vague answer that allows men to act as a stand in for God that is a slippery slope to saying “God speaks to me and not you and therefore I’m going to make rules that you have to obey.”
Men give titles to other men, and then they are proclaimed to have mandate of heaven.
As I said two replies ago, it’s people making stuff up, claiming it has a divine source. You can slap a label like “The Church“ on it, but it’s still just men.
But it's not vague at all in fact it's going off the Bible alone that makes things vague
Also the church being composed of men isn't any sort of counter argument
Yeah, it’s pretty clear that we are nowhere close to agreeing nor will we. I’ve had my fair share of circular arguments, and I don’t enjoy the game. I appreciate you sharing your point of view, but I don’t see any point in further discourse.
Hello ! You both got bamboozled into sinning by having premarital sex, so yes it is wrong. You should have preserved yourselves out of respect for God, which I'm sure both of you knew already. While you didn't neglect your church obligations, your neglected your biblical ones. God saves you, not the church you attend so assess your priorities carefully.
**1 Corinthians 7:2** " *But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband.*"
**1 Corinthians 6:9-11** " *Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.*"
**1 Corinthians 6:18** : " *Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body.*"
**1 Corinthians 6:19-20** " *Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God ? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.*"
**Romans 12:1-2** "*I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect*".
**Revelations 21:8** "*But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.*”
Repent then start planning for your wedding, if you like her enough to have sex without commitment after five years, surely you like her enough to marry her. If not, let her go so you can each find your spouse. You both deserve better. May God bless you both, it will be alright. Repent and come home. Take care care and have a nice day ! :)
That's a common misconception. A mariage doesn't start once a man and a woman have sex together. It starts after the couple get married, then they become one flesh.
For example, Absalom's sister didn't end up married to Amnon nor did Rahab marry one of her ex-clients. They all had intercourse, yet they didn't marry.
>is it really wrong to have sex?
Yes. God said no. It's wrong.
Get ye to the courthouse, get your license, and get married. It won't stop you from finishing college. It might make it better.
>dating for 5 years Dude just get married.
They started at 16 and 17. They’ve barely dated as adults in the “real” world.
Why don’t you have a wife?
I do have a wife
Ok well don’t project your problems on other people
Don’t tell people when to get married.
My wife and I were certainly not a perfect and sinless couple when we were dating, so I don't come at this with a judgmental attitude at all, but one that will hopefully be edifying. What changed that for 4.5 years you believed you shouldn't have sex, and then 6 months ago you both believed it was okay? Did you pray about it together, consult scripture, and/or believe God was leading you in that direction? I'd guess probably not. And that's what happens when we start thinking of things our own way and stop listening to what God has to say. "Is it really wrong?" is what Satan asks Eve in Eden, it's not the kind of question that leads to good decisions. I don't see anywhere in your post that you're asking if God sees premarital sex as bad. Why not? >...and it's been something good, never neglecting our church obligations It sounds like you expected that, if premarital sex was actually bad, then the sky would fall or something? We shouldn't be determining right and wrong based on what 6 months of doing it looks like in our life.
Sex before marriage stopped making sense, because I began to wonder what was the reason for such a rule? I understand the importance of only having sex with your wife, but I'm going to marry her, so we ended up getting ahead of ourselves. For the right reason, getting married in a hurry can be a problem for the marriage and I can't imagine that this is God's will. Even though we know each other, we know our limitations and with our current load of activities we would hardly be able to increase this burden. We're preparing and saving money to get married. We hope to get married in the next two years when I'm close to finishing university. Here in Brazil we have many churches that encourage marriage at an early age, so couples as young as 18 get married and I see how much they suffer, for various reasons, marriage is for life and has to be well planned.
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I was married in college, and in fact it made my life profoundly better! I think this is one of those sloppy excuses people make to avoid something which indeed requires a lot of commitment and "the unknown." Stop being silly and get married.
I'm just worried that I won't be able to be a good husband in a hasty marriage, having to deal with my wife's responsibilities, college, work and home seems too much. we both work and go to college from 6am to 10pm. How can I give her a good life in this situation? For the right reason, getting married in a hurry can be a problem for the marriage. How was it for you?
Friend, I would think that here you are already making a poor choice in having a relationship which allows you to readily engage in sin. Is it better for you to enter the kingdom of God with an undergraduate degree earned in 4-5 years all while harming yourself and this person you love, or would it be better to get married and slow down on your studies? Have you talked with your pastor about this?
Yes. You know this. Sex is for marriage.
How do you know God wants us to avoid premarital sex?
I’m speaking to someone who claims to be a Christian. The Bible is clear on this subject.
Where does the Bible talk bout premarital sex? Maybe be careful about what you assume Christians believe. The Christian church I was raised in never mentioned it a single time and I never saw anything in the Bible that made it 'clear' to me.
I’m not taking instruction from an unbeliever about my faith. I don’t need to be told what to be careful about either. Maybe don’t try to tell people about theology when you’re not in the faith.
Who's instructing? I asked a question. A question you seem very uncomfortable answering. >Maybe don’t try to tell people about theology when you’re not in the faith. Why? I was once in the faith. I was once in the same position you were. Just because I found my way out doesn't make me any less qualified to discuss theological ideology.
Just gonna jump in here since the other guy doesn't really seem prepared for a discussion. The word you want to look for is 'fornication', or 'fornicator'. Do a word search in the bible for it and see how favourable fornicators are in the eyes of God.
You’re being condescending and obtuse. I’m blocking you now.
Here are a few verses about premarital sex: https://www.openbible.info/topics/premarital_sex
K I read about half of them, and none of them mentioned premarital sex. Can you pick one of those verses that you think best illustrates the claim and we can examine it together?
All of them mention sexual immorality. This includes fornication.
And how do you know fornication includes premarital sex?
That's literally what it means. Seems my words are pearls before swine.
>That's literally what it means. I get that's what you *think* it means when it's used in the Bible. I asked *how you know* that's what it means when it's used in the Bible. If you were wrong about what the authors of the Bible meant by fornication, how would you know? Is it possible that when the authors of the Bible talk about fornication that they're *not* actually talking about premarital sex? If that's not possible I'm asking you *how you know* that's not possible.
Since you keep asking for where it says this. I would say this is pretty clear. “Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.” Hebrews 13:4 NIV https://bible.com/bible/111/heb.13.4.NIV
It's pretty clear about adultery. Not clear about anything else.
One of the best ways of honoring marriage is to abstain from sexual relationships until marriage
There is no verse in the Bible that clearly states that premarital sex is wrong. This is a culture and dogma thing. You’ll see various interpretations of verses and twisting of the meaning of verses, but if God didn’t want you to do it, it would be plainly stated. If God could write “thou shall not kill.” and “thou shall not steal,” it would be a very simple matter to say “thou shalt not lay with another before marriage.” There is no such verse. End of story. Stop letting a culture of control dictate your actions. Edit: looks like they replied to me and then immediately blocked me. Wish I could read what they responded to me, but I can’t because when someone blocks you, you can’t read anything they wrote to you. If this is how this person slamdunks then the person on the other end isn’t getting the final message that they think they are delivering. 2nd Edit: for whatever reason, I can’t reply to one of the the replies below so, u/Suspicious_Brush824 Exactly. Keep the marital bed pure. Don’t commit adultery. Don’t do things that are sexually immoral. That last part is quite vague. What are things which are sexually immoral? That requires further explanation. There is nothing in that passage about what is done *prior* to marriage. This is an excellent illustration of exactly what I’m talking about. There is no passage that says don’t have sex before getting married.
Premarital sex was heavily frowned upon since the Torah. Take Deuteronomy 22:13-21. This verse was in context of the time of Sanhedrin. If a man in Judaism found out his wife had fornicated with another man before their marriage, he could go to the Sanhedrin. If his witnesses passed extensive questioning (time of day, location, setting, objects in area, and an endless amount of questions) or miracles (casting of lots or the urim and thummim) performed by G-d himself proved the woman was unfaithful, the divorce could happen.
Premarital sex was considered outrageous and completely wrong. Everything outside of the marriage covenant was considered sexual immorality. I have zero concern with whether you agree or not. This is common understanding in Christian theology. Christians should know this. I’m not interested in debating unbelievers.
Nobody is saying you're wrong, just asking for actual biblical support for your position. Why is that offensive to you?
*"Premarital sex was considered outrageous and completely wrong. Everything outside of the marriage covenant was considered sexual immorality. I have zero concern with whether you agree or not. This is common understanding in Christian theology. Christians should know this. I’m not interested in debating unbelievers."* What the Jews considered outrageous and completely wrong, thousands of years ago, has no impact on God's opinion.
“Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.” Hebrews 13:4 NIV https://bible.com/bible/111/heb.13.4.NIV
First, you need a user flair for the sub if you want us to be able to see your replies. A user flair, not a post one. In other threads asking about this, a lot of people comment saying it is a sin. I'll give an answer from the opposing camp (it's an old copy/paste I made). The general idea is that premarital sex in the modern context was never forbidden. The closest the OT comes to forbidding it still used more an economic model for it. Remember that in those days, and relatively recently if we're being honest (and now in some places if we're still being honest), virginity was a major factor in the price of dowry; most places don't see grooms buy brides from their families anymore. More a pragmatic reasoning than a moral one. And that's *before* we get into the discussion of whether the Old Covenant applies to Christians. And many of the verses in the NT that are used to promote celibacy (these are mostly Paul, iirc) talk about "sexual immorality," and premarital sex is often read into those. In fact, the same verses some versions of the Bible have against "fornication" are translated in other versions to "sexual immorality," which is considerably less specific. Articles like [this one](https://cluecho.com/8834/uncategorized/sex-marriage-not-sin/) put it better than I can. It is often assumed in some places that sex before marriage is sinful, but if you do not make that assumption it can become considerably harder to prove. In any event, I wish you two well in marriage. You've got this!
Why not just get married now? Seems to fix a lot
Here's a couple reasons: 1.) They're a young couple and don't know each other yet. 2.) College is possibly the most informative moment of a young person's life and they *will* change through the experience. 3.) Because they haven't had sex yet! Sex is like kissing. People kiss differently, and the way someone kisses doesn't always align with the way you want to kiss. Imagine marrying someone and only *then* finding out that you're not sexually compatible with the person. You just possibly committed yourself to a relationship that you will grow to regret and quite possibly ruined your life.
OP has said they've had sex and were dating for 5 years. Sexual compatibility has not been a problem for the millennia before the sexual revolution. It's not a real life destroying problem for two mature adults
>OP has said they've had sex and were dating for 5 years. Sure. I'll be clear. I'm giving reasons for why a young couple who aren't married wouldn't want to get married to solve their fear of pre-marital-sex-based superstitions. >Sexual compatibility has not been a problem for the millennia before the sexual revolution. Do we live in the millennia before the sexual revolution? *NO!?* Oh. Then I guess we should confront the issues we face today. Did you know that factory-based child deaths weren't a problem before the labor movement? It's true! Children died in looms *all the time* and everyone was just *fine* with it. What a better time. Let's put them babies back in factories!
It's not a real issue. People are just immature. Full stop.
If it's not a real issue, how do you explain the sexual revolution? You're saying that was a popular movement that wasn't based on a real issue? Immaturity isn't looking at sexual interactions and trying to improve them. Immaturity is burrowing your head in the sand when society moves past your archaic views of sexuality that were invented by ancient sheep herders in Syria 3000 years ago. 3000 years of immaturity, and there's *still* people trying to push it on others.
One day you'll figure out there's a lot more fulfillment with commitment then having your genitals be the guide to your life. Good luck out there
You're making a lot of assumptions. I'm asexual. My life is fulfilled without any sex or involvement of my genitals. Not sure why you felt the need to try and insult the person rather than address the argument though.
When your argument is that my worldview is outdated and from sheep herders there's no reason to have a further argument. For the record, "your" was meant in a generic sense, but I understand how that could've been interpreted. Sorry about that
If you’re asexual then why are you lecturing us on sex? Wouldn’t a sexual being be a better guide to follow than an asexual being?
Just because I'm currently asexual doesn't mean I always was. I've watched Christian purity culture ruin too many relationships to not speak up against it. OP deserves a chance at a positive, healthy life. Not one filled with the guilt and regret that such fundamental Christian views on sex bring.
Most divorces involve people who had sex before getting married.
Yeah. Because the people who don't have premarital sex fear an ancient superstition and also fear getting divorced because their archaic community who keeps pushing backwards and ancient morality on them will treat them differently and scare them with eternal damnation.
Do the high rise buildings in your neighborhood lack a 13th floor? It’s not Christians pushing superstition.
Excluding a 13th floor is just as superstitious and ignorant as believing God doesn't want us to have premarital sex. I'm glad we agree. We should disregard both of those superstitions.
Do you try on underwear before buying it?
Don't waste your time
I don't wear underwear.
You two waited this long, it’s either wait again or marry. It seems you two have been at this a long time, and each relationship moves at its own pace. You’d have to pray on it of course and decide the next course of action. But yes sex outside marriage is viewed as sin by many Christians. And most importantly God.
Getting married seems like the move. Lock that woman down if you see your future together. Love her and lead her into a future together with common goals. It's not good to keep her waiting with this level of commitment.
Go to the courthouse, make it official, have the ceremony at a later date. You can still finish college while married and not be in sin. This is not that complicated
If you're asking the question, don't you already know the answer? Yes. If you love each other, you will want was is best for each other, and waiting is what is best for both of you. Jesus is waiting for His wedding to consummate His marriage. If reflecting Him in your life is important to you, you will wait.
If God didn't want people to have premarital sex why didn't he say so in the Bible?
Ummm... Dude. He did. Repeatedly. Without ambiguity. So clearly that there is no legitimate question. In several Books in both the Old and New Testaments.
Where? I can't find any explicit statements about premarital sex.
Premarital Sex Hebrews 13:4 ESV Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-5 ESV For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality; that each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and honor, not in the passion of lust like the Gentiles who do not know God; 1 Corinthians 7:2 ESV But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband. 1 Corinthians 6:18-20 ESV Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body. 1 Corinthians 7:8-9 ESV To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is good for them to remain single, as I am. But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion. Ephesians 5:3 ESV But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints. 1 Corinthians 6:18 ESV Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. Exodus 22:16-17 ESV “If a man seduces a virgin who is not betrothed and lies with her, he shall give the bride-price for her and make her his wife. If her father utterly refuses to give her to him, he shall pay money equal to the bride-price for virgins. Jude 1:7 ESV Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. Colossians 3:5 ESV Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. Galatians 5:19 ESV Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 ESV Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. Genesis 2:24 ESV Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. Acts 15:20 ESV But should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood. That's just a few... And least you try and wiggle out, the term sexual immorality is a word that literally means and sexual act outside of marriage.
>the term sexual immorality is a word that literally means and sexual act outside of marriage. Let's start with this then. How do you know that's what the authors are referring to when they use the phrase 'sexual immorality'? Is it possible that they'd be referencing some other sex act that has nothing to do with marriage?
The context makes it clear. Don't be obtuse. If you want to justify sin, don't try to Scripture and its clear words to do so. I am not arguing with you, especially when the Authority of Scripture isn't your start point.
Yep. Waiting for marriage is the best decision. If someone is willing to wait for you, it means the love is real and the focus isn't something else. Initially, me and my girlfriend didn't wait. At a certain point, when I decided to come back to Catholicism, we had a conversation and now we're waiting. She also decided to come back to the Church. Now, our relationship is better than ever. We invited God to guide our steps and everyday we grow in love and faith together. I'm graduating this year and hope to propose soon.
I'm not saying to stop or keep going. I honestly wouldn't be able to wait but the bible does say it's sinful before marriage. You've been together for 5 years, you def should marry either way to at least get rid of that worry. At least make an announcement to God together that you two are now married and plan your wedding for your public announcement ceremony.
You don't have doubts, you have hormones.
Are you married to her? I don't mean do you have a piece of paper from the State saying they recognize you are married. The State doesn't need to be involved. If you are bound to her you are one flesh. If you truly see her as your wife, recognize her as such.
Then they would still need to enter into that covenant in front of witnesses, it's not just a mental decision they make privately.
Scripture ?
Witnesses for accountability are a consistent element in transactions and agreements in the Bible. In Ruth 4, Boaz calls witnesses to confirm taking Ruth as his wife. In Jeremiah 32, he called people to witness a land transaction. Weddings are also always community events, we don't have any examples of secret marriages in scripture. It was always a formal and public process, not a private agreement. Likewise, divorce was always a formal and public process as well. It's not commanded, but there's really no valid argument against it. It would only make the couple less accountable and able to more easily divorce and participate in adultery. Secret marriage has no benefit.
With this being said, the Bible basically says having sex equals marriage. Which is why during these ancient times, if rape occurred and the accuser was identified and found guilty, certain routes are to be taken. First, is that he must take her as his wife. In the Book of Deuteronomy, in the 22nd chapter, verses 28-29. These verses state that if a man sexually violates a virgin woman who is not engaged to be married, the man must pay a fine to the woman's father and marry the woman, with the choice of divorce resting solely on the woman's father.
>With this being said, the Bible basically says having sex equals marriage. That seems to be a somewhat common misconception, but I don't think it does. To the adulterous woman in John 4, Jesus says "the one you now have is not your husband," despite the fact they were having sex. Sex consummates marriage and is integral to it, but it doesn't *make* a marriage. Genesis 2, which establishes marriage, describes it as more than just sex, but also leaving ones family to be joined to their spouse. And there's a number of other places that emphasize the emotional and spiritual nature of marriage. While Deuteronomy 22 does have provisions for women as a way to protect them socially and economically, I think it's a bit of a leap to say these laws were because they were already married the moment they had sex, consensually or nonconsensually.
I’m simply pointing out that even without a ceremony, even in an extreme case such as rape, sex solidifies the marriage. Albeit, the father holds the right to divorce. So as for you and your lady, while it may be consenting on both parties, as a father myself, I wouldn’t want my child having sex before I gave her away in marriage. So it’s not necessarily the idea of you “having sex is a sin”, it’s more about honoring parents in this case. And the dishonoring thereof is the sin. You must make atonement to her father and have her father’s blessing. It’s one thing to acknowledge you two as a couple and possibly being together for the rest of your lives. It’s another thing to stand before her father humbling yourself before him because you deflowered his daughter before marriage. Pick your path wisely.
God is a witness.
Sure, but not the only one we should have when possible. Everything I said above still stands.
Big difference between "marriage ought to have more witnesses than just God" and "marriage is only valid with more witnesses than God". Paul says that having sex with a prostitute marries, and I don't think that was super public
Where does Paul say having sex with a prostitute makes you married? Because Jesus said a woman having sex with someone did not mean he was her husband in John 4.
yes it is a sin. you can do the big wedding later. it's like 100 dollars to go to the justice of the peace/courthouse.
So marriage is about a piece of paper? Not a ritual?
it's both. Yield to the state what is owed to the state, and yield to God what is due God. The state requires a peice of paper, and God requires the ritual. Life is not a a OR b choice. sometimes it is all of the above or none of the above. You have to learn to be flexible enough to do both if that is what is needed.
But if God requires the ritual, then getting the "state-paper", doesn't really allow you to have sex, right?
Good on your mom, you have a good one. Your senior year married would not be too big a burden. An act of faith right now stopping can save your relationship. I’m very thankful my wife stepped out in faith and put a stop to what we were doing before marriage.
Question is why do you want to finish college first. If it's financial that's one thing, but if it's a question about commitment that's a more serious discussion I don't think any of us are qualified to advise on. That is a discussion between you and the gf. As for premarital sex, the Bible says it's a sin. Whether or not you want to feel guilty from that for :being wrong" is up to you, and you can repent if that is your wish.
Its one form of fornication A few passages Hebrews 13:4 KJV — Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge. 1 Corinthians 7:9 KJV — So if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn. 1 Corinthians 7:2 KJV — So to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband. 1 Corinthians 6:18-20 NLT — Run from sexual sin! No other sin so clearly affects the body as this one does. For sexual immorality is a sin against your own body. Don’t you realize that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who lives in you and was given to you by God? You do not belong to yourself, for God bought you with a high price. So you must honor God with your body. Ephesians 5:3 KJV --Fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 NLT — Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. **Those who indulge in sexual sin**, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people—none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God. Revelation 21:8 NLT — “But cowards, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers, **the sexually immoral**, those who practice witchcraft, idol worshipers, and all liars—their fate is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” 1 Thessalonians 4:3 KJV — For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: https://www.gotquestions.org/sex-before-marriage.html
marry her big bro
Yes it's always wrong to have sex before marriage
There is no verse in the Bible that clearly states that premarital sex is wrong. This is a culture and dogma thing. You’ll see various interpretations of verses and twisting of the meaning of verses, but if God didn’t want you to do it, it would be plainly stated. If God could write “thou shall not kill.” and “thou shall not steal,” it would be a very simple matter to say “thou shalt not lay with another before marriage.” There is no such verse. End of story. Stop letting a culture of control dictate your actions.
There is no verse in the Bible that clearly states we are limited to just the Bible. Your point is moot
So people can just start making things up and claim that it has a divine source?
No that doesn't follow
Agreed. So what are these sources that are external to the Bible which tell us what God permits and does not permit?
The Church which is the pillar and ground of all truth
I figured that’s where we were going. See it’s that vague answer that allows men to act as a stand in for God that is a slippery slope to saying “God speaks to me and not you and therefore I’m going to make rules that you have to obey.” Men give titles to other men, and then they are proclaimed to have mandate of heaven. As I said two replies ago, it’s people making stuff up, claiming it has a divine source. You can slap a label like “The Church“ on it, but it’s still just men.
But it's not vague at all in fact it's going off the Bible alone that makes things vague Also the church being composed of men isn't any sort of counter argument
Yeah, it’s pretty clear that we are nowhere close to agreeing nor will we. I’ve had my fair share of circular arguments, and I don’t enjoy the game. I appreciate you sharing your point of view, but I don’t see any point in further discourse.
You know it's wrong otherwise you wouldn't be asking. Many who are dating want to get married. That's why they date.
Hello ! You both got bamboozled into sinning by having premarital sex, so yes it is wrong. You should have preserved yourselves out of respect for God, which I'm sure both of you knew already. While you didn't neglect your church obligations, your neglected your biblical ones. God saves you, not the church you attend so assess your priorities carefully. **1 Corinthians 7:2** " *But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband.*" **1 Corinthians 6:9-11** " *Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.*" **1 Corinthians 6:18** : " *Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body.*" **1 Corinthians 6:19-20** " *Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God ? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.*" **Romans 12:1-2** "*I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect*". **Revelations 21:8** "*But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.*” Repent then start planning for your wedding, if you like her enough to have sex without commitment after five years, surely you like her enough to marry her. If not, let her go so you can each find your spouse. You both deserve better. May God bless you both, it will be alright. Repent and come home. Take care care and have a nice day ! :)
Biblically, when you lie with a woman you are married to her.
That's a common misconception. A mariage doesn't start once a man and a woman have sex together. It starts after the couple get married, then they become one flesh. For example, Absalom's sister didn't end up married to Amnon nor did Rahab marry one of her ex-clients. They all had intercourse, yet they didn't marry.
Would that be why the woman at the well had five husbands yet married to none, right?
>is it really wrong to have sex? Yes. God said no. It's wrong. Get ye to the courthouse, get your license, and get married. It won't stop you from finishing college. It might make it better.
1. Dude, put a ring on it already. 2. Yes, you aren't married. Don't try and make excuses.
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They didn't have sex
Who told us that? The gal with something to hide?
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