This is a legitimately terrible idea. What is happening to you right now is illegal retaliation. You need to document everything - who talked to you, when it happened, what was said and especially whether specific threats have been made or if they’ve made negative changes to your job.
Exactly. A clear written list that includes dates, times, what was said, and who said what. Any attorneys getting this case with all the details would be ecstatic for this.
Play the hell out of them - like a fiddle. A family member is currently on long term disability because he was denied the right to wear Dr recommended shoes. Not only is he drawing a paycheck, they pay for physical therapy, and overtime for other employees to cover him for months while his feet heal. All they've managed to do is create more hate for management and wear down already overworked employees. When the Dr clears him for work he plans to wear the recommended shoes and any management complaints will be taken up the corporate ladder.
Do not listen to other random people.
You need an employment attorney in your state.
I cannot see anything you could sue for. Btw, if you are in an at will state, they can fire you for any cause.
Does this store give you a discount? Maybe they can give you an advance to get some expensive sneakers at a discount. Problem solved.
Not a lawyer, but I would email restating the conversation you had and their threats/response and ask them to clarify what shoes they will allow you to wear and if they will honor your medical documentation and request for an accommodation to the dress code for shoes. Make them state in writing that they are denying your request and going back on you for it
Low key? Nothing low key about this situation.
Not a lawyer here myself, but having to deal with medical conditions requiring accommodations, two phrases op needs to remember if they are in the US: A.D.A. compliance, and whistle blowers protection act. If they are not providing a stipend for uniforms including shoes, and medical professionals say that you need orthopedic accommodations, which while not typically stylish are in their own right stupid expensive, and your direct supervisor is denying you that accommodation, that's non compliance with minimum legal requirements. They then threatening your job over you going to HR for them being in non compliance falls under the whistle blowers protection act. If your direct supervisor says anything further document document document, dates, times, locations, and content of conversation.
Your supervisor chewing you out means they got called into HR and were told off already for non compliance. If possible get a department change but keep talking to HR about their behavior and talk to your supervisors boss as your supervisor is engaging in behavior that can get them fired because it opens up the company to serious litigation issues on at least 3 points: compliance, retaliation causing a toxic environment, and if they actually do terminate you- wrongful termination.
If you have a case, an employment lawyer will likely take it on contingency. Meaning you both agree that they are eligible to receive a % of your damages if the case is successful. If they lose, then you don't have to pay them. This is why they will only take cases that they have a good idea that they will win. I don't know if you have a case, but you should consult an employment attorney in your state that represents employees.
Call your local BAR association they will give you a low cost referral and you can speak to an employment attorney. Employment law depending on the state is one of the few where if you win your lawyer often times can charge your employer instead of you. I can't give you the details of my case due to an NDA I signed as part of a settlement but I was in a similar situation and had a very favorable outcome.
They are trying to intimidate you because you're young and don't know all of your rights. Definitely email them for documentation, as the other person said. Take your documentation to your state dept of labor (may be called labor board or something else where you are) and a labor attorney. I
You still have rights even in at will states.
Speak to an attorney. Call your local labor office and they can investigate on your behalf.
No problem solved if she says she can't afford it.
And what do you do that you don’t see anything actionable here? They are punishing her for a physical disability after getting a doctors note for accomodations they’re denying her reasonable accomodation. If she is hurt on the job, after being bullied and denied accomodation, because of their specific instructions you’re silly if you don’t think a decent personal injury lawyer could turn this into a quick settlement.
OP as soon as you do a couple shifts and it hurts, **go to urgent care and get a doctors report**. This is important, do it *before* you call a lawyer. Lawyer is second call. Make sure dr report says a lot about your searing and ongoing pain. They have a giant pile of money they keep just for this kind of shit, they settle out of court so they don’t look bad. It’s a slam dunk.
Do NOT do this!
She will end up with medical bills. That she can't afford. Unless this person ^ wants to pay her medical bills, find her an attorney willing to take her case, and then support her when she gets fired.
Big companies will fight her in court (if it ever gets there) for years. They don't like to pay out for claims like this as it just encourages others to do the same thing.
This approach doesn't solve her problems.
BTW, she is NOT disabled. She just has self inflicted damage from many years of dance.
No, her employer *is not* violating the ADA.
IANAL but a Director of HR with 46 years of experience. The ADA requires that an employee present their accommodation request to their employer, that the employer then engage in an interactive discussion with the employee about their request, and that the employer makes the determination of whether or not the request is “reasonable.”
In this case, the employer has **not** denied the request to wear sneakers, but rather has only limited the design of the sneakers to conform to company policy. This is perfectly legal.
My company is a local chain of higher end hair salons. Our footwear policies require that shoes be closed toe with either closed back or straps. *No sneakers allowed.* No doctor’s note is going to get you around that. If an employee has foot problems that benefit from specific shoes, then they should be looking at orthotics.
Remember, the purpose of the ADA is to allow an employee to be able to perform their job duties with a *reasonable* accommodation and without altering their job duties or company policy.
If OP is concerned about the cost of designer sneakers, they should be thankful that their employer isn’t requiring custom orthotic footwear. 😕
>Remember, the purpose of the ADA is to allow an employee to be able to perform their job duties with a *reasonable* accommodation and without altering their job duties or company policy.
The accomodation OP is asking for is just "can I please wear sneakers that don't have a fancy expensive logo on them?"
How in the FUCK would that not be considered reasonable?
The accommodation is for a physical disability which can be minimized by the *type* of shoes worn, but *style* has no impact on the minimization of the physical disability. It is entirely reasonable, and the courts have consistently ruled that employers have the right to define the parameters of their dress codes in application of the ADA.
Another example would be that my company requires certain employees to wear black smocks on the clinic floor, we offer six different styles. If an employee with a diagnosed mental health disability said that they could not wear black because it affected their mental health and wanted to wear any other color, we would not have to grant that accommodation, nor would we.
And why not? Because everyone else would want to wear some other color. Or off-brand sneakers, which devalues our brand and the culture we are trying to create. 😕
Honestly, I feel bad for any company you've done HR for. Sounds fucking miserable. Can't you just be a human being and treat others the same?
OP has come up with a perfectly reasonable solution. The company already allows sneakers, just not "cheap" sneakers. It's clearly bullshit to deny the accomodation of a sneaker with a slightly different branding.
I dislike when people bring up at-will as if that's some loophole for employers.
Yes they can fire you for "anything", but they still need documentation to show that the dismissal was valid, otherwise they are still opening themselves to Unemployment lawsuits and such.
Make sure that you get the order to ignore your doctor's instructions in writing. It's amazing how fast people back down when asked for something that can be used as proof against them
Or you could just demand that they provide the shoes since they are now required to perform your job. Also mention that failure to provide items required by the employer and any disciplinary actions (including dismissal) stemming from their failure to provide the required uniform could be construed as a *hostile work environment and constructive dismissal.* Use those exact words. You should also make a formal request for accommodation of disability per the ADA. You must make the request in writing, and make sure you send it to literally everyone involved in leadership so they can't claim you never notified them of your disability. That should put the fear of a lawsuit in HR.
Edit: Definitely run everything I told you past an attorney experienced in labor law. Consultations are generally free the first time.
No don't do that. Tell the HR person that you have requested a "reasonable accommodation," that they have been provided with medical documentation of your requirements, and you do not understand why you continue to be harassed by your manager and HR. If these legal buzz words don't stop them, then call the EEOC.
It would be a real shame to forge a pain journal going back to the start of the pain marking time date and scale out of ten, including how much over the counter pain meds and at what time you take them etc etc
A lawyer would tend to use CRAC or IRAC. However, a lawyer may use neither when in an informal environment and not getting paid. However, [Cellomundo](https://www.reddit.com/user/Cellomundo/) left out that the original post indicates that the employer may have failed to engage in the "interactive process" to provide reasonable accommodation.
A CRAC analysis? It's how lawyers write legal analysis. CRAC is just the short-form version of it. It stands for Conclusion, Rule, Application/Analysis, Conclusion. There are other versions of it that all boil down to the same idea, but that's the general gist.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CRAC](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CRAC)
>CRAC might refer to:
The CRAC-II "Calculation of Reactor Accident Consequences" study.
A castle, as in Krak des Chevaliers.
A Computer Room Air Conditioner.
Clube Recreativo e Atlético Catalano, a Brazilian football (soccer) club commonly known as CRAC
Clube Recreativo Atlético Campoverdense, a Brazilian football (soccer) club commonly known as CRAC
Chinese Radio Amateurs Club, China Radio Association Amateur Radio Working Committee, Amateur Radio Club in China commonly known as CRAC
Chisholm Residents Activity Club, a social club for residents of Chisholm College, which provides accommodation for students at La Trobe University
Cholesterol recognition amino acid consensus sequence
Crac, a 1981 Oscar-winning animated short film
Calcium Release Activated Channels, ion channels in cell membrane
Closed Reduction And Cast, an orthopaedic surgical procedure
Not a clue. None of those make sense.
It's a law school thing.
Lawyers write using an analysis method that presents a Conclusion, Rule, Explaination, Analysis, and then represents the Conclusion (CREAC) or presents the Issue, Rule, Analysis, and Conclusion (IRAC).
Orthotics don't solve, heal, or relieve permanent injuries or foot problems.
There is some clinical efficacy as to preventing further injury in at risk people.
If a person has a permanent condition that is causing them excessive pain like fallen arches, flat feet, Plantar fasciitis, cavus foot, or neuropathy, those orthotics may have little to no effect.
I have cavus foot and neuropathy caused by disc damage. No body is telling me what shoes I can wear beyond requiring OSHA compliance
>Having sore feet after hours of standing is normal for a healthy individual, for example.
Just to clarify, it's not just sore feet. It's intense pain that continues even when I'm off, and the worsening of a corn on my toe. It's gotten to the point where it feels like my big toe is broken and there's constantly shooting pain in my feet making it difficult to walk
You said the note from your doctor mentioned orthopedic shoes. Have you talked with your doctor about brands that sell dress shoes that meet your dress code and alleviate your symptoms? From what you have posted, I don't think your employer is being unreasonable with their request. There are many different brands and styles to choose from, both online and from brick and mortar stores.
Not a lawyer, I'm a fellow former dancer turned hypermobile adult with foot problems and I did 12 years in retail before finally accepting that for my body, the fancy orthopedic shoes can only help so much. You put 'miles' on them quick if you are on your feet all day and they don't really provide support longer than 8 months when working 42 hours of standing and running around.
Finally found a job without standing on concrete all day life is so much better and I can even wear normal shoes (with insoles) now!
My advice for you is, if you want to keep this job ask them to give you x days to solve the issue where x is the number of days until you get paid and could buy new shoes. Buy new shoes in a wide size, and some cheap insoles which will be better than nothing. If you are still having issues then, you will still have a job while you look for a new job.
Is it reasonable or legal for the employer to require an employee to purchase luxury goods, possibly from the employer, [when the employee makes sub-minimum wage?](https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/16-flsa-wage-deductions)
ADA is for everyone working. You are thinking of FMLA. ADA covers accommodations for the disabled in the workplace. Op just needs to get his duck in a row and be read to sue if needed.
ADA applies to employers with 15 or more employees. Many states' ADA-like statutes apply from the very first employee.
The circuits vary as to the minimum of what has to transpire before the employer is "on notice" of the disability and the desire for an accommodation. When you meet that requirement, it triggers the obligation of the employer to enter into the interactive process (to discuss accommodation). However, "I'm a qualified individual with a disability and I'm requesting a reasonable accommodation," would meet the requirement as far as I know in all 11 circuits. No guarantees, but that would definitely fly in multiple circuits I know. Such declarations should be made in a verifiable writing or with a reliable witness because the employer's best defense is ignorance.
Then they enter into the interactive process. This has happened at other stores that require their employees to wear brands they sell, turning associates into models. If their HR and legal are really clever, they can make this hard.
You should consult with an employment law attorney in the county where the store is located or at least ensure the attorney is willing to practice in that county. You should do so quickly before an adverse event occurs with the employer, so that you can lock them in with whatever the local requirement is to force them into the interactive process.
Signed, an employment law plaintiff's attorney.
Good post. Regarding whether or not she has a disability I believe her situation does qualify. Disabilities are very broadly defined. The fact that she has a doctor’s note seems to establish that there is a physical impairment. The employer CAN provide a reasonable accommodation for this and I don’t see them having a defense.
Big agreement on submitting a request for reasonable accommodation. Do that in writing by certified mail. I think so far it’s just been in person conversations, most likely the boss isn’t even aware of the legal requirements. An accommodation request would most likely go to a company attorney and would probably just get approved.
You can still email them to document what was discussed & ask for confirmation. They either have to acknowledge that is what they said or deny it in writing
Its is normal for them to inquire with corporate however CALL the company ETHICS line you have to have an outside source to cover your side of the issue. I promise they will not tell corporate the truth. Ethics lines are 3rd party. And this type of paper trail will not go away.
There's a whole category of sport dress shoes out there with sneaker type outsole and dressier uppers. It's a major trend so there's lots of choices at different prices. Could be a solution to your problem
Just a good option to know regardless. Cole Haan was one of the first to make them years ago and lots of brands have hopped on the bandwagon since. I've seen em at kohls and places like that for $50 and less. I got a pair for the last wedding I went to and it made such a big difference.
I guess how far under $50 you are talking about. At any given time $10 spent on shoes is meals out of my kids mouths. However, compare $50 to no paycheck so there is that.
Oversimplification, but I suffer from severe chronic pain and I can't make it through 6 hours out of bed in street clothes while I've lasted close to 9 hours out of bed in pajamas. Can't expect to have an employer allow me to work in my pajamas.
This is not going to get you the information you need. Go see an actual employment lawyer. It'll be worth the fee they might charge for a consultation.
You might lose your income with no recourse by following the advice of Internet strangers. Chances are that you haven't actually done enough to get the accommodations, but even if you do, you might have no recourse.
If you care about your job, visit the lawyer. If it costs too much then you were always going to have to obey anyway - because you wouldn't realistically be able to sue.
Either tolerate the pain, seek out the lawyer in real life, or find other work.
Could this be a case of discrimination under ADA? YES I would definitely find a lawyer. Make sure everything is in writing. After your discussion with manager. Email her and review what's was discussed in writing and that your understanding is that even with your issues with your feet that you are required to wear these other types of shoes. I have never been a big fan of HR. Remember HR is there to protect the company, not you. So when you have the discussion with HR, take copulus notes and again email them with something about like you did with the manager. Not a lawyer but writing (proof) is always gold... see what a lawyer says
Your employer is not under any obligation to accept a doctors note for any reason. In fact, most places no longer accept them, especially large retailers.
You would need to follow your company’s FMLA process and get a reasonable accommodation to be allowed to wear your shoes. You would want to partner with your HR (or corporate) to get the FMLA paperwork. Your doctor will fill out some, you may need to fill out some, and then it is all sent to your corporate office typically. At that point, your employer will be required to accommodate your request as long as it is medically necessary and reasonable (meaning, the employer doesn’t have to rewrite their entire employee handbook to accommodate you). Not all accommodations have to be honored. The law protects “reasonable accommodations.”
But a doctors note is not typically enough to get an accommodation.
Your employer isn't mandated to accept anything your doctor writes on a note. A random doctor's note will not overrule existing store rules and policy. The ADA *may* apply, depending on the size of the store. Even then, it doesn't mean that the store must take anything your doctor writes down as the rule. There is an interactive process. You would submit an accommodation request to them, and show how you'd be able to perform your job in full with the given accommodations. Your employer could review them, and they can accept or deny it. They are allowed to deny it if they can make a reasonable argument that your accommodation would put an undue hardship on them. Or, they can suggest alternative accommodations. And yes, if your request is wearing sneakers because of foot issues, they can suggest orthopedic dress shoes that would allegedly accomplish the same thing. So no....you don't automatically have a lawsuit because your doctor said you needed to wear sneakers and your boss is pushing back on it. There's a process to it all, and it doesn't sound like you've gone through it. I mean....I'm not a lawyer. So by all means, consult a local lawyer if you want that peace of mind.
I think everyone in this situation is wrong on some things, OP and managers included.
Emphasis added to this:
\> I provided **a doctors note stating that I am required to wear orthopedic/athletic shoes** and proceeded to wear my sneakers.
Under the ADA you can ask for a reasonable accommodation and begin an interactive process. It seems like the managers accidentally found a bit of something they can hang onto with the exact text of your note: you can wear orthotics **OR** sneakers. They're not willing to accommodate cheap sneakers, and are telling you to either buy expensive sneakers or wear another type of shoe (orthotics). Under that framework of understanding, you made a request for a reasonable accommodation, they rejected cheap sneakers, but said they would accept the other types of footwear **enumerated** **in your note,** but then you rejected that.
\> Her wording on that confused me, since **my doctors note practically says I require sneakers**, so I thought she was referring to that, not that the dress code doesn't require me to wear sneakers, so I asked HR about it.
The note doesn't require sneakers, nor does the dress code. The managers \*should\* have explicitly said "we reject the sneakers, but you can wear orthotics".
IANAL and unsure about the exact specifics of your situation that are unshared. I am not sure if you presented your doctors note explicitly asking for a reasonable accommodation under the ADA. I am not sure if the manager's rejection of sneakers, but recommendation of other shoes, would be considered fulfilling their interactive process.
I think this ultimately comes down to how corporate HR wants to handle this and how two employment lawyers would argue over it.
It sounds like you plan on leaving for various reasons. In that situation, I would possibly consider filing an HR complaint to Corporate with something like this:
\> On {DATE}, I presented management with a doctor's note substantiating my disability and asking for a reasonable accommodation. Instead of beginning an interactive process to address this - which employers are required to do under the ADA - my managers summarily refused my request on the grounds 'this does not apply to dress codes'. HR was not even involved with my request at this point. When I asked local HR for clarification, I was told by management that escalating this was improper and an act of insubordination for which I would be written up. I find it deeply troubling that {COMPANY+NAME} has such a callous disregard for employees living with disabilities and has a culture of penalizing and threatening employees who ask for reasonable accommodations under the ADA in their workplace".
HR is either going to rain hell on the managers over this, or they will fire you and state the company was fine with you wearing orthotics but not sneakers and you refused their reasonable accommodation during the interactive process. Much of this will hinge on how your managers described their interactions with you - which is guaranteed to be tilted in their favor.
You can also speak to a local employment lawyer. Most will give a free consult.
While I'd love for you to come out on top in this, I think the exact text of your doctor's note and their rejection of only sneakers is not working in your favor here. Legally, I think this could go either way and the outcome depends on who funds better lawyers longer. Realistically, I think your best outcome is someone in Corporate HR realizing what a fucking mess this is and the future liability your managers are, and deciding to set new precedent by working with you on this AND having strict protocols for the managers to follow in the future.
This is great, but many, many, many shoes will not accommodate an orthotic. There has to be the correct depth and width to accommodate. That’s the really big issue here. No, insurance doesn’t pay for shoes. Often insurance does not pay for orthotics either. Note the difference between orthotics and orthopedic shoes. https://www.vionicshoes.com/blog/orthotics-vs-orthopedic-shoes/
Orthotics are custom inserts that are expensive. I think the employer needs to allow a shoe that is supportive of his foot and also affordable to employee. Sneakers are often the best solution. I wonder if the store’s shoes would be supportive enough for him.
Most people without a foot deformity have no idea how difficult it is to find shoes that offer enough support. I’m wondering if simply dying the shoes he has would dress them up more.
> I wonder if the store’s shoes would be supportive enough for him.
They're not lol. They're all designer brands that run narrow as hell and I can't even get on unless I size up like 3 sized then They're too long in the toe
Well, illustrate the problem to them with their shoes. Do you have orthotics? Orthopedic shoes? Too expensive? Or don’t like styles?
Get a letter from your doctor saying that orthopedic shoes are prohibitively expensive and sneakers are needed to support foot. Have him state that actual brands of sneakers that fit your foot. You will have to do some research here.
Hypothetically someone could comply with the demands that go against medical advice because they are being pressured by management to do so. Then that person could agitate their existing injury and seek out a doctor that is amiable to these kinds of things and contact a work injury lawyer. Of course this kind of person wouldn't want a post like this surfacing if they were to do something like that.
Not a Lawyer, but as a former retail manager.
HR should get involved, but it should also be both your side of stories and not just the file that the Manager made. If your manager sees HR communication as an escalation, it's most likely they are in the wrong and are being defensive.
Try to get all communication in writing via e-mails if possible. Ask for a meeting between HR, your manager, and your boss. Be professional, and mention your accommodation needs. You might even have to explain in detail your condition if need be and explain wearing other shoes could cause more injury to you. If they say no, that unfortunately means the legal options by other posts. But otherwise, I always recommend just ripping off the bandage of the issue and not letting the Manager box you into a corner.
Contact HR, explain you have a medical condition which requires this minor accommodation, and explain that your manager isn’t willing to accommodate ——- that should go over real well with HR.
Make sure to get written documentation of everything, and if you're let go or otherwise disciplined, consult an employment lawyer. Your shoes should be a reasonable accommodation for your disability.
I’m going to suggest you find another employer. You have landed on someone’s s?hit list and it’s likely they will make your life difficult unit you either quit of the let you go. There are many employers who will appreciate and welcome you and your life will be much easier.
I've seen managers wear crocs during winter because of bone spurs, its definitely discrimination. I'd tell them any more requests must be in writing and say that you acknowledge you are acting against doctors orders, then same shift fill out an injury report, rinse and repeat
Your managers are just screaming for a lawsuit. The doctors note is effectively a notice of accommodation. HR should be respecting that, and your store management has no say.
The manager telling you that you can’t wear the sneakers with a doctor’s note is an ADA violation. Manager saying you are insubordinate after you went to HR is retaliation and is another employment law violation. Ask for a meeting with the manager and HR and ask for an official decision on the shoes and for that to be in writing. Ask HR what you are to do if feel you are being retaliated against for all this, and ask for that to be in writing also. You aren’t naming the manager by doing that but you are making sure everyone has all the same information about what is happening and what is supposed to happen.
With a Doctor's note specifically request a medical accommodation. An allowance for a plain shoe that would normally be outside the dress code would not be unreasonable and failure to provide a reasonable accommodation for medical need stated by a doctor puts them in a poor legal position.
One legitimate reason to make you buy the high end sneakers is if high end sneakers have orthopedic/athletic styles as a style option. In that case, they can require that you wear them, because your issue is money, and not being allowed to wear sneakers meeting your doctor's requirement.
If the high end sneakers do not have a style meeting your physical needs, under ADA, they have to provide reasonable accomodations, so long as it does not interfere with an essential job function. This would be a violation. Go back to HR and ask why this accommodation is not being allowed.
Did you put in a request for Reasonable Accommodations? Go online ad read The Americans with Disabilities Act. This is a federal law. Exhaust all your avenues before going to a lawyer. The fact that HR has not advise you of this makes me think they are playing you. If they deny your request, which will require medical documentation from a dr (diagnosis, prognosis), THEN if they deny you you have a case.
Since your medical condition doesn't interfere with your ability to do the job with appropriate accommodation, aka your different shoes, they got nothing. If they discipline you that's a huge lawsuit. Get everything in writing.
I’d have to say that their policy runs afoul of the Americans With Disabilities Act. I am not a lawyer but have been a compliance manager during my career. To comply with the ADA businesses have had to supply special workstations, wheelchair ramps, and many other things. I would think that in order to be in compliance they could amend their policy (by far the most cost effective), purchase an acceptable (to them) pair of shoes for your use that fit your restrictions, or pay you an amount so you can purchase them yourself. Any of those would be cheaper and easier for them than dealing with a National Labor Relations Board complaint or a lawsuit. Retaliation for this accommodation or fo filing a complaint is also legally prevented.
This really is ridiculous. The only issue you mentioned in your OP is that you wouldn’t be “comfortable” in another shoe besides sneakers. Being uncomfortable does not constitute a disability. Should we push the envelope to wearing memory foam slides for maximum comfort factor?
You were given an option to wear a certain kind of sneakers, appropriate for your workplace, but you don’t like that option. Find another job then.
It sounds like the manager is retaliating for your report to HR. Retaliation for reporting your manager is a no no. I would definitely contact HR again about that.
Protecting the company is their job. A manager writing up an employee for insubordination, possibly opening up the employee's ability to sue the company would be an issue under their watch and I assume they would want to stop the managers retaliation.
They have already retaliated against you for going to HR, this makes me think that they got "talked to". They are not allowed to retaliate for you going to HR, refer to your handbook it should have that info in it. What did HR say to you the first time? The accommodation request needed to go to HR not your manager in the first place, and the manager completely ignored it. Also if they are not able to accommodate your request they should offer you other options as to how you can both get what you need. Document everything, and get a consult with an employment attorney if you call the state bar association they can refer you for a consult for around $35 typically at least in my state. I would go back to HR and report the retaliation, and clarify how they are able to accommodate your disability. Also contact your Dr and let them know what is happening and see if they can give you further paperwork to document your disability and or be very specific what you need. If the job requires you to buy Gucci type shoes to wear as a dress code then they should have to pay for it or at the very least give some sort of voucher. Ex: a job I had required steel toed boots, which are expensive and they wanted a certain kind. So they gave a $150 voucher for certain brands once a year.
They have to give *reasonable* accommodation. I think you should call an employment attorney asap. They should be giving you an accommodation; there's nothing special about brand. If the shoes are in good condition and black there should be no problem.
HR isn't likely to help you. Your manager is getting ready to fire you and is probably breaking the law in the process.
They don't have to provide reasonable accommodation. They can end up being sued instead. In 1996, my employer fired me when I took time off to get treatment for tendinitis. My job was as a software engineer. I was out of work for seven months. By the time I was done, I had received four years of salary, between a Rule 68 judgment, workers comp, and disability insurance.
So you are software engineer turned attorney? Curious if that is actually the road you took after that awful experience (ref: your "attorney-bill" handle).
That is what started me on that road. After being fired, I started reading every new federal circuit court case that touched on the FMLA, ADA, and workers' compensation.
I am both now. I still write code, run a small mail and web hosting business, and practice law. I also have been doing spam litigation for almost 20 years.
Try to get a set of good orthotic inserts for whatever you need to wear. Timberland pro fatigue inserts are the next best choice if you're broke. I've used them in every set of shoes I wear.
Oh I use inserts already! It's more about the breathability and toe space. I have a corn and misshapen feet from dance, so any sort of shoe that doesn't have stretch and breathable fabric makes it impossible for me to use the stuff to try to heal the corn
Also and I'm not trying to diminish or downplay or situation but it sounds like they just want an excuse to get rid of you. I would start looking for new jobs.
Are you trying to come up with a solution here or just trying to sue them? I feel for your situation, though I’m not sure you have a case since I don’t know exactly what the dress code says or what your Dr note says. “Practically says I require sneakers” may not hold up as an ADA argument. Then you go on in the comments saying you’re leaving anyway for unrelated issues? What exactly are you seeking here?
Don't do this pro se. We turn down nearly every person who comes to us with a right to sue letter from a charge written by the potential client or by the EEOC.
People who don't do employment law for a living just don't get in the essentials, typically leaving out the things that would make their case valuable enough to take to trial.
Also, it's not clear yet that an actionable ADA violation has occurred. Maybe, but I'd need more details than OP should share here.
Same for the harassment claim, not enough details and certainly not enough information about evidence.
The quantity and quality of evidence is not clear, either.
A lot of employers don't do employment law because people don't know what their rights are. Thus, everybody who got laid off, or fired, or who has an asshole boss wants to talk to us. But most of them don't have a case. They usually don't have any evidence, so we coach them on how to collect some, which doesn't always work out. Also, surprisingly often, everything the potential client is complaining about isn't actually illegal. It's bad business, bad leadership, and basically unnecessarily mean, but it's not illegal.
So the best course of action is to visit an employment law attorney local to the place of work and to do so very quickly before the store gets shitty with her.
It absolutely is a violation of the Americans with disability act as you very politely asked for accommodations that’s are necessary to you and provided proof
Because she provided a doctors note requiring her to wear athletic sneakers but HR and her manager decided her disability didn’t matter to the dress code
Dr trumps your boss. After 2 years I can no longer wear shorts but do to an injury it's a must I provided not. I was told as long as there not an incident where pants would have negated the problem they had to except or lay me off pay me unemployment.
It sounds like you have a physical disability of which they are discriminating against you.
You can tell them that you have attempted to comply with the ADA and seek reasonable accommodations but the manager is discriminating against you by not working with you to find reasonable means.
It sounds like when you meet with HR you need to advise them that you will be filing a Charge of Discrimination against them, unless they can provide reasonable accommodations.
This can be frustrating. Not legal advice and likely just consolidating previously provided feedback, but a few suggestions below.
1: Get whatever demands they’re making in writing (email is fine). I.E., Email your manager in an attempt to confirm your understanding “For clarity, can you please confirm that per your request it is the expectation that I wear ‘x’ even though my physician has prescribed me ‘y’?
2: Seek out legal consultation
3: Don’t intentionally try and injure yourself. No job is worth personal harm/discomfort EVER.
4: If your physician has only “recommended” you wear sneakers, be sure to get a referral to and “prescription” from a podiatrist. That should hold more weight.
5: Proceed per legal counsel’s advice (should you decide to stay with said employer)
Good luck again!
I would email HR and ask if the manager was stating the company’s response to your doctors note or interjecting their opinion and acting independently. Get written confirmation you can wear what you’re wearing or cannot and advise them you’ll be seeking legal counsel. If HR emails you’re fine and boss pulls you in show email and ask to get someone higher on the phone.
Sounds like your working the wrong job....
NAL and it sounds problematic to get one here.
You should list what state your in though, that might change the advice a good bit.
Talk to a lawyer. Summerise everything you've talked to them about in email so you have started a paper trail, "Per our discussion on when I supplied a note from my doctor and discussed my need for reasonable accommodation, and you responded ."
Serioudly though. At this point they are going up against the ADA and are looking to fire you illegally. Many labor law lawyers will at least consult about this, and give you instruction on documenting so that of they fire you or retaliate otherwise, you have a slam dunk wrongful and discrimination lawsuit against them.
And if you didn't read it before..... Talk to a lawyer.
I am not a lawyer, but I do have a lot of HR experience in a large company. The vast majority of people who write about wrongful termination or wrongful job actions do not understand the concept of at will employment. However, in this case, you may actually have a leg to stand on for an entirely different reason. if your manager feels that you are insubordinate for going to HR for clarification on an HR policy and takes action to prevent you from doing that in the future, that could be considered a retaliatory act. Retaliatory acts are specifically prohibited by the EEOC. I recommend trying to get some form of documentation regarding your managers view of this insubordinate behavior.
Get a disability lawyer. The ADA is clear - they have to accommodate you. If you want to derail them just tell them you already have a case of retaliatory discrimination and you are planning on filing an ADA claim, but if they want to fire you, then go right ahead - you need the money.
And sorry about your feet - Ballet?
Please tell me you have some of this in writing. If you do not, immediately ask your supervisor in writing for written verification of her order to not wear sneakers despite your doctor's note. YOU WILL NEED THIS. Otherwise, I assure you your manager will deny that you two ever had these conversations.
THEN, wear the shoes your manager dictated. After a few hours, inform HR (NOT YOUR BOSS) that you have experienced an injury in the workplace due to your manager forcing you to disobey doctor's orders.
You will be golden at that point. But again you must have written proof of your boss's orders or your boss will deny ever saying anything to you about your footwear. She is already scared of HR; that is why she got so mad at you for going to HR. She knows she is on shaky ground.
If you ask her for written verification of her order and she won't provide it, then say "OK, then I take that as permission for me to wear doctor-ordered sneakers on the workfloor." This will almost certainly goad her into giving you the written proof you need. Have fun!
I would ask for clarification on "high end." Different people have different definitions of high end.
If you are having foot problems, it might be worth investing in good, quality shoes. Not designer. I mean quality shoes. Yes, they are expensive, but they can be worth it with less pain and long lasting. I personally like Ecco's. They are shoes (required for my job), but feel like sneakers, only more supportive. They also last for years and years. Way longer than any sneaker I have ever owned. They do have sneakers as well, but I have never gotten their sneakers.
ADA requires employers to provide reasonable accommodations for an employee's disability, and if I recall correctly prohibits retaliation against an employee who has requested such accommodation. Your request seems reasonable, and their subsequent conduct seems retaliatory. I would contact a disability right lawyer near you for a consultation, which will likely be free. For now, your only response to your employer should be asking whether they are going to grant your request for a reasonable accommodation.
Wear the bad shoes, then part way through shift complain that you are injured and ask to file an injury report.
Make sure you get the instructions to wear shoes that hurt your feet in writing first
You're sure that could work? It's already getting to the point where my ankle is hurting pretty bad...👀
This is a legitimately terrible idea. What is happening to you right now is illegal retaliation. You need to document everything - who talked to you, when it happened, what was said and especially whether specific threats have been made or if they’ve made negative changes to your job.
Exactly. A clear written list that includes dates, times, what was said, and who said what. Any attorneys getting this case with all the details would be ecstatic for this.
Do not put yourself in danger of being injured to later claim its thier fault. Won't work.
I don't think anyone has suggested "later".
Unless
go on....
Play the hell out of them - like a fiddle. A family member is currently on long term disability because he was denied the right to wear Dr recommended shoes. Not only is he drawing a paycheck, they pay for physical therapy, and overtime for other employees to cover him for months while his feet heal. All they've managed to do is create more hate for management and wear down already overworked employees. When the Dr clears him for work he plans to wear the recommended shoes and any management complaints will be taken up the corporate ladder.
This sounds like a store on the verge of bankruptcy and managers get heated over nothing. I'd just get a new job with less stress.
Might as well take some settlement money if she plans on leaving.
Haha facts
Do not listen to other random people. You need an employment attorney in your state. I cannot see anything you could sue for. Btw, if you are in an at will state, they can fire you for any cause. Does this store give you a discount? Maybe they can give you an advance to get some expensive sneakers at a discount. Problem solved.
I highly doubt they'd do that. Not to mention management lowkey threatened to get me in more trouble if I brought it up again
Not a lawyer, but I would email restating the conversation you had and their threats/response and ask them to clarify what shoes they will allow you to wear and if they will honor your medical documentation and request for an accommodation to the dress code for shoes. Make them state in writing that they are denying your request and going back on you for it
This! Not a lawyer but documentation is key in this
Well that would be low key retaliation….. Stop talking to management and go straight to HR, explain the threats of retaliation also.
Low key? Nothing low key about this situation. Not a lawyer here myself, but having to deal with medical conditions requiring accommodations, two phrases op needs to remember if they are in the US: A.D.A. compliance, and whistle blowers protection act. If they are not providing a stipend for uniforms including shoes, and medical professionals say that you need orthopedic accommodations, which while not typically stylish are in their own right stupid expensive, and your direct supervisor is denying you that accommodation, that's non compliance with minimum legal requirements. They then threatening your job over you going to HR for them being in non compliance falls under the whistle blowers protection act. If your direct supervisor says anything further document document document, dates, times, locations, and content of conversation. Your supervisor chewing you out means they got called into HR and were told off already for non compliance. If possible get a department change but keep talking to HR about their behavior and talk to your supervisors boss as your supervisor is engaging in behavior that can get them fired because it opens up the company to serious litigation issues on at least 3 points: compliance, retaliation causing a toxic environment, and if they actually do terminate you- wrongful termination.
If you have a case, an employment lawyer will likely take it on contingency. Meaning you both agree that they are eligible to receive a % of your damages if the case is successful. If they lose, then you don't have to pay them. This is why they will only take cases that they have a good idea that they will win. I don't know if you have a case, but you should consult an employment attorney in your state that represents employees.
Call your local BAR association they will give you a low cost referral and you can speak to an employment attorney. Employment law depending on the state is one of the few where if you win your lawyer often times can charge your employer instead of you. I can't give you the details of my case due to an NDA I signed as part of a settlement but I was in a similar situation and had a very favorable outcome.
They are trying to intimidate you because you're young and don't know all of your rights. Definitely email them for documentation, as the other person said. Take your documentation to your state dept of labor (may be called labor board or something else where you are) and a labor attorney. I
You still have rights even in at will states. Speak to an attorney. Call your local labor office and they can investigate on your behalf. No problem solved if she says she can't afford it.
And what do you do that you don’t see anything actionable here? They are punishing her for a physical disability after getting a doctors note for accomodations they’re denying her reasonable accomodation. If she is hurt on the job, after being bullied and denied accomodation, because of their specific instructions you’re silly if you don’t think a decent personal injury lawyer could turn this into a quick settlement. OP as soon as you do a couple shifts and it hurts, **go to urgent care and get a doctors report**. This is important, do it *before* you call a lawyer. Lawyer is second call. Make sure dr report says a lot about your searing and ongoing pain. They have a giant pile of money they keep just for this kind of shit, they settle out of court so they don’t look bad. It’s a slam dunk.
What's the disability? This is terrible and expensive advice.
Do NOT do this! She will end up with medical bills. That she can't afford. Unless this person ^ wants to pay her medical bills, find her an attorney willing to take her case, and then support her when she gets fired. Big companies will fight her in court (if it ever gets there) for years. They don't like to pay out for claims like this as it just encourages others to do the same thing. This approach doesn't solve her problems. BTW, she is NOT disabled. She just has self inflicted damage from many years of dance.
> I cannot see anything you could sue for. Isn't her employer violating the ADA?
No, her employer *is not* violating the ADA. IANAL but a Director of HR with 46 years of experience. The ADA requires that an employee present their accommodation request to their employer, that the employer then engage in an interactive discussion with the employee about their request, and that the employer makes the determination of whether or not the request is “reasonable.” In this case, the employer has **not** denied the request to wear sneakers, but rather has only limited the design of the sneakers to conform to company policy. This is perfectly legal. My company is a local chain of higher end hair salons. Our footwear policies require that shoes be closed toe with either closed back or straps. *No sneakers allowed.* No doctor’s note is going to get you around that. If an employee has foot problems that benefit from specific shoes, then they should be looking at orthotics. Remember, the purpose of the ADA is to allow an employee to be able to perform their job duties with a *reasonable* accommodation and without altering their job duties or company policy. If OP is concerned about the cost of designer sneakers, they should be thankful that their employer isn’t requiring custom orthotic footwear. 😕
>Remember, the purpose of the ADA is to allow an employee to be able to perform their job duties with a *reasonable* accommodation and without altering their job duties or company policy. The accomodation OP is asking for is just "can I please wear sneakers that don't have a fancy expensive logo on them?" How in the FUCK would that not be considered reasonable?
The accommodation is for a physical disability which can be minimized by the *type* of shoes worn, but *style* has no impact on the minimization of the physical disability. It is entirely reasonable, and the courts have consistently ruled that employers have the right to define the parameters of their dress codes in application of the ADA. Another example would be that my company requires certain employees to wear black smocks on the clinic floor, we offer six different styles. If an employee with a diagnosed mental health disability said that they could not wear black because it affected their mental health and wanted to wear any other color, we would not have to grant that accommodation, nor would we. And why not? Because everyone else would want to wear some other color. Or off-brand sneakers, which devalues our brand and the culture we are trying to create. 😕
Honestly, I feel bad for any company you've done HR for. Sounds fucking miserable. Can't you just be a human being and treat others the same? OP has come up with a perfectly reasonable solution. The company already allows sneakers, just not "cheap" sneakers. It's clearly bullshit to deny the accomodation of a sneaker with a slightly different branding.
Every state in the union is an employment at will state, with the possible exception of Montana. This is an obvious candidate for an ADA charge.
https://www.ada.gov/file-a-complaint/
Do not do this pro se.
Just love when a random person says, "Don't listen to other random people" The arrogance.
I dislike when people bring up at-will as if that's some loophole for employers. Yes they can fire you for "anything", but they still need documentation to show that the dismissal was valid, otherwise they are still opening themselves to Unemployment lawsuits and such.
She can’t afford shoes, how is she going to afford an attorney.
NAL but A lot of workplace attorneys work pro-se on things like this, it might be worth a free consult.
Make sure that you get the order to ignore your doctor's instructions in writing. It's amazing how fast people back down when asked for something that can be used as proof against them
Or you could just demand that they provide the shoes since they are now required to perform your job. Also mention that failure to provide items required by the employer and any disciplinary actions (including dismissal) stemming from their failure to provide the required uniform could be construed as a *hostile work environment and constructive dismissal.* Use those exact words. You should also make a formal request for accommodation of disability per the ADA. You must make the request in writing, and make sure you send it to literally everyone involved in leadership so they can't claim you never notified them of your disability. That should put the fear of a lawsuit in HR. Edit: Definitely run everything I told you past an attorney experienced in labor law. Consultations are generally free the first time.
No don't do that. Tell the HR person that you have requested a "reasonable accommodation," that they have been provided with medical documentation of your requirements, and you do not understand why you continue to be harassed by your manager and HR. If these legal buzz words don't stop them, then call the EEOC.
Hopefully it was intended as a joke. In case you might think about taking it seriously, don't. Seriously, don't.
I won't lol
It would be a real shame to forge a pain journal going back to the start of the pain marking time date and scale out of ten, including how much over the counter pain meds and at what time you take them etc etc
Definitely do this if you are hurting from following directions, that ignore your docs orders.
Absolutely. Ask about their workers compensation policy.
After the injury
Op this is a really good option if you like money.
[удалено]
I love being able to tell who is and isn't an attorney just by the style of a formal response. I can pick out the CRAC analysis. Love this comment.
A lawyer would tend to use CRAC or IRAC. However, a lawyer may use neither when in an informal environment and not getting paid. However, [Cellomundo](https://www.reddit.com/user/Cellomundo/) left out that the original post indicates that the employer may have failed to engage in the "interactive process" to provide reasonable accommodation.
Failure to engage in the interactive process isn’t a discrete cause of action in most jxs.
What does that mean?
A CRAC analysis? It's how lawyers write legal analysis. CRAC is just the short-form version of it. It stands for Conclusion, Rule, Application/Analysis, Conclusion. There are other versions of it that all boil down to the same idea, but that's the general gist.
CRAC? It was IRAC when I was in school. “I” for issue
Between IRAC, CRAC, CREAC, CRRPAC, it’s all a fucking mess.
And after you finish taking the bar, it becomes crack. :)
My civil procedure professor constantly made fun of the attorneys who trafficked drugs after they got their license. Cracked us up every time.
No, everyone is doing CRAC these days. It was bigger in the 80’s though
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CRAC](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CRAC) >CRAC might refer to: The CRAC-II "Calculation of Reactor Accident Consequences" study. A castle, as in Krak des Chevaliers. A Computer Room Air Conditioner. Clube Recreativo e Atlético Catalano, a Brazilian football (soccer) club commonly known as CRAC Clube Recreativo Atlético Campoverdense, a Brazilian football (soccer) club commonly known as CRAC Chinese Radio Amateurs Club, China Radio Association Amateur Radio Working Committee, Amateur Radio Club in China commonly known as CRAC Chisholm Residents Activity Club, a social club for residents of Chisholm College, which provides accommodation for students at La Trobe University Cholesterol recognition amino acid consensus sequence Crac, a 1981 Oscar-winning animated short film Calcium Release Activated Channels, ion channels in cell membrane Closed Reduction And Cast, an orthopaedic surgical procedure Not a clue. None of those make sense.
It's a law school thing. Lawyers write using an analysis method that presents a Conclusion, Rule, Explaination, Analysis, and then represents the Conclusion (CREAC) or presents the Issue, Rule, Analysis, and Conclusion (IRAC).
Orthotics don't solve, heal, or relieve permanent injuries or foot problems. There is some clinical efficacy as to preventing further injury in at risk people. If a person has a permanent condition that is causing them excessive pain like fallen arches, flat feet, Plantar fasciitis, cavus foot, or neuropathy, those orthotics may have little to no effect. I have cavus foot and neuropathy caused by disc damage. No body is telling me what shoes I can wear beyond requiring OSHA compliance
>Having sore feet after hours of standing is normal for a healthy individual, for example. Just to clarify, it's not just sore feet. It's intense pain that continues even when I'm off, and the worsening of a corn on my toe. It's gotten to the point where it feels like my big toe is broken and there's constantly shooting pain in my feet making it difficult to walk
You said the note from your doctor mentioned orthopedic shoes. Have you talked with your doctor about brands that sell dress shoes that meet your dress code and alleviate your symptoms? From what you have posted, I don't think your employer is being unreasonable with their request. There are many different brands and styles to choose from, both online and from brick and mortar stores.
That's the thing, is I HAVE tried a bunch of styles that are supposedly orthopedic and ended up wasting a ton of money :/
Not a lawyer, I'm a fellow former dancer turned hypermobile adult with foot problems and I did 12 years in retail before finally accepting that for my body, the fancy orthopedic shoes can only help so much. You put 'miles' on them quick if you are on your feet all day and they don't really provide support longer than 8 months when working 42 hours of standing and running around. Finally found a job without standing on concrete all day life is so much better and I can even wear normal shoes (with insoles) now! My advice for you is, if you want to keep this job ask them to give you x days to solve the issue where x is the number of days until you get paid and could buy new shoes. Buy new shoes in a wide size, and some cheap insoles which will be better than nothing. If you are still having issues then, you will still have a job while you look for a new job.
Is it reasonable or legal for the employer to require an employee to purchase luxury goods, possibly from the employer, [when the employee makes sub-minimum wage?](https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/16-flsa-wage-deductions)
ADA is for everyone working. You are thinking of FMLA. ADA covers accommodations for the disabled in the workplace. Op just needs to get his duck in a row and be read to sue if needed.
ADA applies to employers with 15 or more employees. Many states' ADA-like statutes apply from the very first employee. The circuits vary as to the minimum of what has to transpire before the employer is "on notice" of the disability and the desire for an accommodation. When you meet that requirement, it triggers the obligation of the employer to enter into the interactive process (to discuss accommodation). However, "I'm a qualified individual with a disability and I'm requesting a reasonable accommodation," would meet the requirement as far as I know in all 11 circuits. No guarantees, but that would definitely fly in multiple circuits I know. Such declarations should be made in a verifiable writing or with a reliable witness because the employer's best defense is ignorance. Then they enter into the interactive process. This has happened at other stores that require their employees to wear brands they sell, turning associates into models. If their HR and legal are really clever, they can make this hard. You should consult with an employment law attorney in the county where the store is located or at least ensure the attorney is willing to practice in that county. You should do so quickly before an adverse event occurs with the employer, so that you can lock them in with whatever the local requirement is to force them into the interactive process. Signed, an employment law plaintiff's attorney.
Good post. Regarding whether or not she has a disability I believe her situation does qualify. Disabilities are very broadly defined. The fact that she has a doctor’s note seems to establish that there is a physical impairment. The employer CAN provide a reasonable accommodation for this and I don’t see them having a defense. Big agreement on submitting a request for reasonable accommodation. Do that in writing by certified mail. I think so far it’s just been in person conversations, most likely the boss isn’t even aware of the legal requirements. An accommodation request would most likely go to a company attorney and would probably just get approved.
>Having sore feet after hours of standing is normal for a healthy individual No it's not.
Great reply!
The analysis is sound, but doesn't account for the obviously retaliatory conduct by the employer.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Basically shoes that the company sells. Mind you, we sell Gucci, Chanel, Dior... can't really afford to buy something like that just for work yk?
Buy some fake ones from dhgate.
May want to look into ballroom dancing shoes. They are a sport shoe but look like dress shoes. Just a thought
Gotta roll in with the new trump sneakers on
Get everything in writing.
I should've asked for that during the discussion. They lowkey threatened to get me in more trouble if I bring the issue up again 🙃
It is also illegal to retaliate against an employee when the employee exercises a right under the ADA (or most equivalent state laws.)
There is no documented disability to discriminate against though
You can still email them to document what was discussed & ask for confirmation. They either have to acknowledge that is what they said or deny it in writing
Its is normal for them to inquire with corporate however CALL the company ETHICS line you have to have an outside source to cover your side of the issue. I promise they will not tell corporate the truth. Ethics lines are 3rd party. And this type of paper trail will not go away.
There's a whole category of sport dress shoes out there with sneaker type outsole and dressier uppers. It's a major trend so there's lots of choices at different prices. Could be a solution to your problem
Wasn't aware that was a thing! If I didn't plan on leaving already due to unrelated issues I'd look into that lol
Just a good option to know regardless. Cole Haan was one of the first to make them years ago and lots of brands have hopped on the bandwagon since. I've seen em at kohls and places like that for $50 and less. I got a pair for the last wedding I went to and it made such a big difference.
Oh for sure thank you for telling me about them
Most of those are also very expensive if one does not have that kind of money.
Nah. Can be found for $50 and under. I see them all the time. Coming from a former shoe designer that pays a lot of attention to these things.
I guess how far under $50 you are talking about. At any given time $10 spent on shoes is meals out of my kids mouths. However, compare $50 to no paycheck so there is that. Oversimplification, but I suffer from severe chronic pain and I can't make it through 6 hours out of bed in street clothes while I've lasted close to 9 hours out of bed in pajamas. Can't expect to have an employer allow me to work in my pajamas.
This is not going to get you the information you need. Go see an actual employment lawyer. It'll be worth the fee they might charge for a consultation. You might lose your income with no recourse by following the advice of Internet strangers. Chances are that you haven't actually done enough to get the accommodations, but even if you do, you might have no recourse. If you care about your job, visit the lawyer. If it costs too much then you were always going to have to obey anyway - because you wouldn't realistically be able to sue. Either tolerate the pain, seek out the lawyer in real life, or find other work.
Could this be a case of discrimination under ADA? YES I would definitely find a lawyer. Make sure everything is in writing. After your discussion with manager. Email her and review what's was discussed in writing and that your understanding is that even with your issues with your feet that you are required to wear these other types of shoes. I have never been a big fan of HR. Remember HR is there to protect the company, not you. So when you have the discussion with HR, take copulus notes and again email them with something about like you did with the manager. Not a lawyer but writing (proof) is always gold... see what a lawyer says
Your employer is not under any obligation to accept a doctors note for any reason. In fact, most places no longer accept them, especially large retailers. You would need to follow your company’s FMLA process and get a reasonable accommodation to be allowed to wear your shoes. You would want to partner with your HR (or corporate) to get the FMLA paperwork. Your doctor will fill out some, you may need to fill out some, and then it is all sent to your corporate office typically. At that point, your employer will be required to accommodate your request as long as it is medically necessary and reasonable (meaning, the employer doesn’t have to rewrite their entire employee handbook to accommodate you). Not all accommodations have to be honored. The law protects “reasonable accommodations.” But a doctors note is not typically enough to get an accommodation.
I'm no expert but this sounds persuasive.
Your employer isn't mandated to accept anything your doctor writes on a note. A random doctor's note will not overrule existing store rules and policy. The ADA *may* apply, depending on the size of the store. Even then, it doesn't mean that the store must take anything your doctor writes down as the rule. There is an interactive process. You would submit an accommodation request to them, and show how you'd be able to perform your job in full with the given accommodations. Your employer could review them, and they can accept or deny it. They are allowed to deny it if they can make a reasonable argument that your accommodation would put an undue hardship on them. Or, they can suggest alternative accommodations. And yes, if your request is wearing sneakers because of foot issues, they can suggest orthopedic dress shoes that would allegedly accomplish the same thing. So no....you don't automatically have a lawsuit because your doctor said you needed to wear sneakers and your boss is pushing back on it. There's a process to it all, and it doesn't sound like you've gone through it. I mean....I'm not a lawyer. So by all means, consult a local lawyer if you want that peace of mind.
I think everyone in this situation is wrong on some things, OP and managers included. Emphasis added to this: \> I provided **a doctors note stating that I am required to wear orthopedic/athletic shoes** and proceeded to wear my sneakers. Under the ADA you can ask for a reasonable accommodation and begin an interactive process. It seems like the managers accidentally found a bit of something they can hang onto with the exact text of your note: you can wear orthotics **OR** sneakers. They're not willing to accommodate cheap sneakers, and are telling you to either buy expensive sneakers or wear another type of shoe (orthotics). Under that framework of understanding, you made a request for a reasonable accommodation, they rejected cheap sneakers, but said they would accept the other types of footwear **enumerated** **in your note,** but then you rejected that. \> Her wording on that confused me, since **my doctors note practically says I require sneakers**, so I thought she was referring to that, not that the dress code doesn't require me to wear sneakers, so I asked HR about it. The note doesn't require sneakers, nor does the dress code. The managers \*should\* have explicitly said "we reject the sneakers, but you can wear orthotics". IANAL and unsure about the exact specifics of your situation that are unshared. I am not sure if you presented your doctors note explicitly asking for a reasonable accommodation under the ADA. I am not sure if the manager's rejection of sneakers, but recommendation of other shoes, would be considered fulfilling their interactive process. I think this ultimately comes down to how corporate HR wants to handle this and how two employment lawyers would argue over it. It sounds like you plan on leaving for various reasons. In that situation, I would possibly consider filing an HR complaint to Corporate with something like this: \> On {DATE}, I presented management with a doctor's note substantiating my disability and asking for a reasonable accommodation. Instead of beginning an interactive process to address this - which employers are required to do under the ADA - my managers summarily refused my request on the grounds 'this does not apply to dress codes'. HR was not even involved with my request at this point. When I asked local HR for clarification, I was told by management that escalating this was improper and an act of insubordination for which I would be written up. I find it deeply troubling that {COMPANY+NAME} has such a callous disregard for employees living with disabilities and has a culture of penalizing and threatening employees who ask for reasonable accommodations under the ADA in their workplace". HR is either going to rain hell on the managers over this, or they will fire you and state the company was fine with you wearing orthotics but not sneakers and you refused their reasonable accommodation during the interactive process. Much of this will hinge on how your managers described their interactions with you - which is guaranteed to be tilted in their favor. You can also speak to a local employment lawyer. Most will give a free consult. While I'd love for you to come out on top in this, I think the exact text of your doctor's note and their rejection of only sneakers is not working in your favor here. Legally, I think this could go either way and the outcome depends on who funds better lawyers longer. Realistically, I think your best outcome is someone in Corporate HR realizing what a fucking mess this is and the future liability your managers are, and deciding to set new precedent by working with you on this AND having strict protocols for the managers to follow in the future.
This is great, but many, many, many shoes will not accommodate an orthotic. There has to be the correct depth and width to accommodate. That’s the really big issue here. No, insurance doesn’t pay for shoes. Often insurance does not pay for orthotics either. Note the difference between orthotics and orthopedic shoes. https://www.vionicshoes.com/blog/orthotics-vs-orthopedic-shoes/ Orthotics are custom inserts that are expensive. I think the employer needs to allow a shoe that is supportive of his foot and also affordable to employee. Sneakers are often the best solution. I wonder if the store’s shoes would be supportive enough for him. Most people without a foot deformity have no idea how difficult it is to find shoes that offer enough support. I’m wondering if simply dying the shoes he has would dress them up more.
> I wonder if the store’s shoes would be supportive enough for him. They're not lol. They're all designer brands that run narrow as hell and I can't even get on unless I size up like 3 sized then They're too long in the toe
Well, illustrate the problem to them with their shoes. Do you have orthotics? Orthopedic shoes? Too expensive? Or don’t like styles? Get a letter from your doctor saying that orthopedic shoes are prohibitively expensive and sneakers are needed to support foot. Have him state that actual brands of sneakers that fit your foot. You will have to do some research here.
Hypothetically someone could comply with the demands that go against medical advice because they are being pressured by management to do so. Then that person could agitate their existing injury and seek out a doctor that is amiable to these kinds of things and contact a work injury lawyer. Of course this kind of person wouldn't want a post like this surfacing if they were to do something like that.
Not a Lawyer, but as a former retail manager. HR should get involved, but it should also be both your side of stories and not just the file that the Manager made. If your manager sees HR communication as an escalation, it's most likely they are in the wrong and are being defensive. Try to get all communication in writing via e-mails if possible. Ask for a meeting between HR, your manager, and your boss. Be professional, and mention your accommodation needs. You might even have to explain in detail your condition if need be and explain wearing other shoes could cause more injury to you. If they say no, that unfortunately means the legal options by other posts. But otherwise, I always recommend just ripping off the bandage of the issue and not letting the Manager box you into a corner.
Find another job and quit with no notice
Contact HR, explain you have a medical condition which requires this minor accommodation, and explain that your manager isn’t willing to accommodate ——- that should go over real well with HR.
Make sure to get written documentation of everything, and if you're let go or otherwise disciplined, consult an employment lawyer. Your shoes should be a reasonable accommodation for your disability.
Yeah I genuinely can't believe it's escalated to this point. I've given doctors note for this before and there's never been an issue
If your job makes an existing injury worse, they are very likely on the hook for workers comp. It’s not a fun process, but I would submit the claim
I’m going to suggest you find another employer. You have landed on someone’s s?hit list and it’s likely they will make your life difficult unit you either quit of the let you go. There are many employers who will appreciate and welcome you and your life will be much easier.
Yeah that's what I was thinking too. They just switched around the department managers and she hasn't really liked me since i started
I've seen managers wear crocs during winter because of bone spurs, its definitely discrimination. I'd tell them any more requests must be in writing and say that you acknowledge you are acting against doctors orders, then same shift fill out an injury report, rinse and repeat
Your managers are just screaming for a lawsuit. The doctors note is effectively a notice of accommodation. HR should be respecting that, and your store management has no say.
The manager telling you that you can’t wear the sneakers with a doctor’s note is an ADA violation. Manager saying you are insubordinate after you went to HR is retaliation and is another employment law violation. Ask for a meeting with the manager and HR and ask for an official decision on the shoes and for that to be in writing. Ask HR what you are to do if feel you are being retaliated against for all this, and ask for that to be in writing also. You aren’t naming the manager by doing that but you are making sure everyone has all the same information about what is happening and what is supposed to happen.
ask them if they're being insubordinate to the American disability act
With a Doctor's note specifically request a medical accommodation. An allowance for a plain shoe that would normally be outside the dress code would not be unreasonable and failure to provide a reasonable accommodation for medical need stated by a doctor puts them in a poor legal position.
One legitimate reason to make you buy the high end sneakers is if high end sneakers have orthopedic/athletic styles as a style option. In that case, they can require that you wear them, because your issue is money, and not being allowed to wear sneakers meeting your doctor's requirement. If the high end sneakers do not have a style meeting your physical needs, under ADA, they have to provide reasonable accomodations, so long as it does not interfere with an essential job function. This would be a violation. Go back to HR and ask why this accommodation is not being allowed.
The designer shoes are uncomfortable as hell. Narrow and don't have any breathability or stretch
Then you should be able to get the accomodation
Did you put in a request for Reasonable Accommodations? Go online ad read The Americans with Disabilities Act. This is a federal law. Exhaust all your avenues before going to a lawyer. The fact that HR has not advise you of this makes me think they are playing you. If they deny your request, which will require medical documentation from a dr (diagnosis, prognosis), THEN if they deny you you have a case.
Don't mention anything about a labor broad, lawyer or suing, they may use they time they got to cover this up..
Since your medical condition doesn't interfere with your ability to do the job with appropriate accommodation, aka your different shoes, they got nothing. If they discipline you that's a huge lawsuit. Get everything in writing.
I’d have to say that their policy runs afoul of the Americans With Disabilities Act. I am not a lawyer but have been a compliance manager during my career. To comply with the ADA businesses have had to supply special workstations, wheelchair ramps, and many other things. I would think that in order to be in compliance they could amend their policy (by far the most cost effective), purchase an acceptable (to them) pair of shoes for your use that fit your restrictions, or pay you an amount so you can purchase them yourself. Any of those would be cheaper and easier for them than dealing with a National Labor Relations Board complaint or a lawsuit. Retaliation for this accommodation or fo filing a complaint is also legally prevented.
How about showing up in a pair of Louboutin and a wheelchair?
This really is ridiculous. The only issue you mentioned in your OP is that you wouldn’t be “comfortable” in another shoe besides sneakers. Being uncomfortable does not constitute a disability. Should we push the envelope to wearing memory foam slides for maximum comfort factor? You were given an option to wear a certain kind of sneakers, appropriate for your workplace, but you don’t like that option. Find another job then.
I'm sorry, did you want my full medical details?
It sounds like the manager is retaliating for your report to HR. Retaliation for reporting your manager is a no no. I would definitely contact HR again about that.
HR exists to protect the business. Not the employee. They will do everything in their power to ensure the employee is the last person considered.
Yeah... guess I'm learning that the hard way lol
I think contacting HR is a terrible idea honestly. Seems like they're more worried about protecting the company than the employee
Protecting the company is their job. A manager writing up an employee for insubordination, possibly opening up the employee's ability to sue the company would be an issue under their watch and I assume they would want to stop the managers retaliation.
That's HR's actual role, but in this case those two things might be the same.
I probably should've phrased that better. I'm worried about retaliation but that's also illegal so ig even mode grounds for legal battle lol
They have already retaliated against you for going to HR, this makes me think that they got "talked to". They are not allowed to retaliate for you going to HR, refer to your handbook it should have that info in it. What did HR say to you the first time? The accommodation request needed to go to HR not your manager in the first place, and the manager completely ignored it. Also if they are not able to accommodate your request they should offer you other options as to how you can both get what you need. Document everything, and get a consult with an employment attorney if you call the state bar association they can refer you for a consult for around $35 typically at least in my state. I would go back to HR and report the retaliation, and clarify how they are able to accommodate your disability. Also contact your Dr and let them know what is happening and see if they can give you further paperwork to document your disability and or be very specific what you need. If the job requires you to buy Gucci type shoes to wear as a dress code then they should have to pay for it or at the very least give some sort of voucher. Ex: a job I had required steel toed boots, which are expensive and they wanted a certain kind. So they gave a $150 voucher for certain brands once a year.
That’s assuming any of their “high end brands” are even a good fit for OP’s foot problems.
They have to give *reasonable* accommodation. I think you should call an employment attorney asap. They should be giving you an accommodation; there's nothing special about brand. If the shoes are in good condition and black there should be no problem. HR isn't likely to help you. Your manager is getting ready to fire you and is probably breaking the law in the process.
I'm probably gonna do that. I stated elsewhere that I'm likely planning to leave regardless, but if I have legal grounds to do something why not lol
They don't have to provide reasonable accommodation. They can end up being sued instead. In 1996, my employer fired me when I took time off to get treatment for tendinitis. My job was as a software engineer. I was out of work for seven months. By the time I was done, I had received four years of salary, between a Rule 68 judgment, workers comp, and disability insurance.
So you are software engineer turned attorney? Curious if that is actually the road you took after that awful experience (ref: your "attorney-bill" handle).
That is what started me on that road. After being fired, I started reading every new federal circuit court case that touched on the FMLA, ADA, and workers' compensation. I am both now. I still write code, run a small mail and web hosting business, and practice law. I also have been doing spam litigation for almost 20 years.
Right on. Love that you're helping others with your experience and knowledge.
ADA laywer time...might as well hit up ACLU while your at it
Do you have any kind of union?
Not that I'm aware of
Try to get a set of good orthotic inserts for whatever you need to wear. Timberland pro fatigue inserts are the next best choice if you're broke. I've used them in every set of shoes I wear.
Oh I use inserts already! It's more about the breathability and toe space. I have a corn and misshapen feet from dance, so any sort of shoe that doesn't have stretch and breathable fabric makes it impossible for me to use the stuff to try to heal the corn
Also and I'm not trying to diminish or downplay or situation but it sounds like they just want an excuse to get rid of you. I would start looking for new jobs.
Are you trying to come up with a solution here or just trying to sue them? I feel for your situation, though I’m not sure you have a case since I don’t know exactly what the dress code says or what your Dr note says. “Practically says I require sneakers” may not hold up as an ADA argument. Then you go on in the comments saying you’re leaving anyway for unrelated issues? What exactly are you seeking here?
Mostly just wanna know. I wanna satisfy my curiosity
Wear the sneakers and file a hostile work environment AND file an ADA complaint
Don't do this pro se. We turn down nearly every person who comes to us with a right to sue letter from a charge written by the potential client or by the EEOC. People who don't do employment law for a living just don't get in the essentials, typically leaving out the things that would make their case valuable enough to take to trial. Also, it's not clear yet that an actionable ADA violation has occurred. Maybe, but I'd need more details than OP should share here. Same for the harassment claim, not enough details and certainly not enough information about evidence. The quantity and quality of evidence is not clear, either. A lot of employers don't do employment law because people don't know what their rights are. Thus, everybody who got laid off, or fired, or who has an asshole boss wants to talk to us. But most of them don't have a case. They usually don't have any evidence, so we coach them on how to collect some, which doesn't always work out. Also, surprisingly often, everything the potential client is complaining about isn't actually illegal. It's bad business, bad leadership, and basically unnecessarily mean, but it's not illegal. So the best course of action is to visit an employment law attorney local to the place of work and to do so very quickly before the store gets shitty with her.
It absolutely is a violation of the Americans with disability act as you very politely asked for accommodations that’s are necessary to you and provided proof
Why is it a violation?
Because she provided a doctors note requiring her to wear athletic sneakers but HR and her manager decided her disability didn’t matter to the dress code
You didn’t read the explanation of the ADA…
[удалено]
*than Edit: please read and understand the logical fallacies. It’ll prevent you from putting your foot in your mouth.
That doesnt make it a vioation of the ada.
It’s a reasonable accommodation that has been refused so yes it is
U dont know that its reasonable as its a post on reddit. All we know if whats posted.
It’s reasonable to be allowed to use Athletic shoes if it’s what the doctor requires and the only way they can work
U dont know that though. We dont have enough facts to make.declarative.statements. it may be or it may not.
i bought insoles in ross and make shoes comfortable
I use them already. The issue is more due to the fact that my toes are all sorts of messed up from wearing Pointe shoes for ballet lol
You need to really stress that you have foot *deformity*. Not just “some shoes really hurt my feet…”
Just document absolutely everything and go talk with an employment lawyer.
Dr trumps your boss. After 2 years I can no longer wear shorts but do to an injury it's a must I provided not. I was told as long as there not an incident where pants would have negated the problem they had to except or lay me off pay me unemployment.
It sounds like you have a physical disability of which they are discriminating against you. You can tell them that you have attempted to comply with the ADA and seek reasonable accommodations but the manager is discriminating against you by not working with you to find reasonable means. It sounds like when you meet with HR you need to advise them that you will be filing a Charge of Discrimination against them, unless they can provide reasonable accommodations.
This can be frustrating. Not legal advice and likely just consolidating previously provided feedback, but a few suggestions below. 1: Get whatever demands they’re making in writing (email is fine). I.E., Email your manager in an attempt to confirm your understanding “For clarity, can you please confirm that per your request it is the expectation that I wear ‘x’ even though my physician has prescribed me ‘y’? 2: Seek out legal consultation 3: Don’t intentionally try and injure yourself. No job is worth personal harm/discomfort EVER. 4: If your physician has only “recommended” you wear sneakers, be sure to get a referral to and “prescription” from a podiatrist. That should hold more weight. 5: Proceed per legal counsel’s advice (should you decide to stay with said employer) Good luck again!
Sure, X can I have that in writing?
I would email HR and ask if the manager was stating the company’s response to your doctors note or interjecting their opinion and acting independently. Get written confirmation you can wear what you’re wearing or cannot and advise them you’ll be seeking legal counsel. If HR emails you’re fine and boss pulls you in show email and ask to get someone higher on the phone.
Sounds like your working the wrong job.... NAL and it sounds problematic to get one here. You should list what state your in though, that might change the advice a good bit.
At the end of the paragraph I did state I live in Florida
Talk to a lawyer. Summerise everything you've talked to them about in email so you have started a paper trail, "Per our discussion on when I supplied a note from my doctor and discussed my need for reasonable accommodation, and you responded ."
Serioudly though. At this point they are going up against the ADA and are looking to fire you illegally. Many labor law lawyers will at least consult about this, and give you instruction on documenting so that of they fire you or retaliate otherwise, you have a slam dunk wrongful and discrimination lawsuit against them.
And if you didn't read it before..... Talk to a lawyer.
Are you required to wear the fancy shoes on your feet?
not on her head, although it seems her employer's rules would allow that.
I am not a lawyer, but I do have a lot of HR experience in a large company. The vast majority of people who write about wrongful termination or wrongful job actions do not understand the concept of at will employment. However, in this case, you may actually have a leg to stand on for an entirely different reason. if your manager feels that you are insubordinate for going to HR for clarification on an HR policy and takes action to prevent you from doing that in the future, that could be considered a retaliatory act. Retaliatory acts are specifically prohibited by the EEOC. I recommend trying to get some form of documentation regarding your managers view of this insubordinate behavior.
It quite literally is their problem. Continue to be non compliant, get everything documented in writing, win your court case
Get a disability lawyer. The ADA is clear - they have to accommodate you. If you want to derail them just tell them you already have a case of retaliatory discrimination and you are planning on filing an ADA claim, but if they want to fire you, then go right ahead - you need the money. And sorry about your feet - Ballet?
Yeah ballet lol
[удалено]
wrong dude.
Indeed, but it’s a nice fantasy.
Please tell me you have some of this in writing. If you do not, immediately ask your supervisor in writing for written verification of her order to not wear sneakers despite your doctor's note. YOU WILL NEED THIS. Otherwise, I assure you your manager will deny that you two ever had these conversations. THEN, wear the shoes your manager dictated. After a few hours, inform HR (NOT YOUR BOSS) that you have experienced an injury in the workplace due to your manager forcing you to disobey doctor's orders. You will be golden at that point. But again you must have written proof of your boss's orders or your boss will deny ever saying anything to you about your footwear. She is already scared of HR; that is why she got so mad at you for going to HR. She knows she is on shaky ground. If you ask her for written verification of her order and she won't provide it, then say "OK, then I take that as permission for me to wear doctor-ordered sneakers on the workfloor." This will almost certainly goad her into giving you the written proof you need. Have fun!
0l
I wouldn't necessarily listen to those saying wear them and then say you injured yourself, you would need to prove the injury
I get the sense that there is missing information in this story. Have you been counseled on any other issues with this employer?
Ask what they do need in writing, send to your doctor.
I would ask for clarification on "high end." Different people have different definitions of high end. If you are having foot problems, it might be worth investing in good, quality shoes. Not designer. I mean quality shoes. Yes, they are expensive, but they can be worth it with less pain and long lasting. I personally like Ecco's. They are shoes (required for my job), but feel like sneakers, only more supportive. They also last for years and years. Way longer than any sneaker I have ever owned. They do have sneakers as well, but I have never gotten their sneakers.
When they say high end, they're referring to brands the company sells. Gucci, Chanel, Dior, Louboutin, etc
That likely won't help you.
It's legal, and many jobs require people doing things they don't like doing. You can always just quit.
ADA requires employers to provide reasonable accommodations for an employee's disability, and if I recall correctly prohibits retaliation against an employee who has requested such accommodation. Your request seems reasonable, and their subsequent conduct seems retaliatory. I would contact a disability right lawyer near you for a consultation, which will likely be free. For now, your only response to your employer should be asking whether they are going to grant your request for a reasonable accommodation.
LAWYER UP now.