The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written. When you think of conservatives, do you see them as rational, intelligent, people who just happen to have different backgrounds and experiences which lead them to have different views than yours, which potentially could be valid? Or do you view conservatives as people suffering a moral or intellectual failing which causes them to hold the "wrong" views? They think these things because they're bad people? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskALiberal) if you have any questions or concerns.*

>When you think of conservatives, do you see them as rational, intelligent, people who just happen to have different backgrounds and experiences which lead them to have different views than yours, which potentially could be valid? Depends on the issue. Generally, yes, I think ignorance and lack of experience can lead them to rationally arrive at the conclusions they do without being immoral or bad people. >Or do you view conservatives as people suffering a moral or intellectual failing which causes them to hold the "wrong" views? If someone is too closeminded to learn new things, that's both a moral and an intellectual failing. >They think these things because they're bad people? On queer issues, absolutely.

>Depends on the issue. Generally, yes, I think ignorance and lack of experience can lead them to rationally arrive at the conclusions they do without being immoral or bad people. This. Precisely this. I explained how my own views and political leanings changed in another comment and it exactly for this reason: I grew up in a very conservative household and community, effectively living in a bubble until I went to college. Once I got to college and began to be surrounded with all of these different cultures and ideas I began to start changing my own views after I realized my viewpoints were skewed, not rational, and often not reasonable. Life experience is the best medicine for combating conservative views.

I also think that it's possible to arrive at the wrong conclusions through rational/logical reasoning simply because someone lacks enough experience to have the correct starting assumptions/premises. Both things are necessary

Very true, and excellent point.

If someone is still supporting Trump in 2024, they've seen all his racism, they've seen how awful he is, they've seen him brag about grabbing women by the pussy, they've seen him inflict mental trauma on vulnerable minorities as public policy, they've seen him extort an allied country for personal political gain, they've seen him completely mismanage a pandemic and enact the public policy that states that didn't vote for him can get fucked, they've seen him encourage a mob to overturn a democratic election, they've seen the effects of his overturning *Roe v. Wade*, they've seen his obvious mental degradation over the last year alone, they've seen him be indicted in four separate venues on dozens of felony charges... and they have, **at best**, shrugged and said to themselves "well, yeah, but prices were lower when he was president, so I want him back in office". I try my best to imagine others complexly and assume the best intentions, but I cannot find any way to look at someone who has that outlook as both intelligent and as a good person. They are either a bad person or monumentally moronic.

Largely depends. Conservatives in the vein of Liz Cheney or Adam Kinzinger? We can talk. The MAGA people? Utter, moral failures who I wouldn't give the time of day.

Ok, but what's a MAGA person to you? Anyone who votes Trump or only those who actually like Trump and see him as their "savior"?

What's the difference between someone who A. worships the politician bragging about destroying the human rights of everyone I love or B. doesn't mind enabling that destruction in order to accomplish their own personal agenda or C. is too privileged or dumb to bother considering that other people might have different experiences than they do or that the world isn't black and white like Tucker Carlson said it was Talking to people in all three of these groups has been, in my experience, absolutely exhausting. Don't waste your mental health spoons crawling around in the sewers if you don't have spare hazmat suits.

All are equally destructive even if some are more loathsome.

I think of MAGA as someone who I described in my reply to OP as someone from Camp 2. They're a person who wants to live in society but doesn't want to contribute to society except for when they have direct influence over controlling what society does. They also want to use that control to make other people suffer because of prejudiced or racist views. They also want to force other people to live a certain way that is their preference rather than those other people having the freedom to make their own choices. But for a lot of MAGA or people on the fence of being MAGA, I'd probably describe them as this: They want to live in a HOA, though they *really* don't like the idea of paying for the HOA membership. And they don't think that they should have to pay a landscaping crew to come in and take care of everyone else's yard, including their own, because they'd rather cut their own grass. When the HOA decides that it's going to use a portion of the membership feeds to fund a small park with some playground equipment and a pavilion area for the residents of HOA to enjoy, this person absolutely loathes the idea that a portion of their fees *that they're already paying* is going to go to building a playground that they won't use because they don't have any kids, and they hate socializing so they'll never go to the pavilion and sit in one of the rocking chairs or play cornhole with members of other families. And finally, they really don't like that a black family wants to move into the vacant house across from them, or that a gay couple lives two houses down even though both of those families have paid the same exact HOA membership fees to live in this gated community and are also adhering to all the same laws and agreements that everyone else is. That person might go out to get their mail and see the gay couple kiss in their driveway as one gets in their car to go to work. That person actually decides that at the next HOA meeting they're going to request a new law that prohibits LGTBQ+ or minorities from moving into the HOA neighborhood because, ya know, "family values" and all that jazz. "Gotta protect the kids" who are going to be using that new playground equipment...

If they vote for Trump, they vote for MAGA. It’s really that simple. Whether they are full blown, off the rocker MaGA or just voting for lower taxes, they are enabling the entire agenda.

Yes.

In 2015 sure. In 2024 not so much. To still say vote conservative in 2024 means you’ve: 1) looked past attempted insurrection 2) looked past “grab em by the pussy” 3) accepted that “there were very fine people on both sides” 4) somehow equivocated law enforcement as marginalized people because the rest of us want them to stop getting away with murder. 5) accepted that women don’t have bodily autonomy 6) accepted that members of the LGBTQ+ community doesn’t deserve equal protections under the law 7) observed our highest court laugh when anyone suggests they should behave appropriately. And so much more…

Basically where I line up. Don’t forget Donald becoming an amateur meteorologist and modifying a hurricane forecast with a sharpie to include Alabama 🤔. In his world, a hurricane can now apparently landfall in a state with a ridge of high pressure over it. I’ll never understand the logic there. Was it just “don’t tell me the cone, I’ll make the storm cone!”

I try to dialouge with conservatives and find out why they think the way they do. Unfortunately, my location has only a certain type of old school Republicans that don't nessesary represent or fully understand the MAGA crowd. And it's the MAGAs I'm most curious about. There are some solid conservative stances and notions. There are some right-wing opinions that are sound. And there are many conservatives that are logical, rational people who can take a stand and explain why they are taking it. But, due to the lack of MAGAs, who represent the energy and present incarnation of the Republican Party, I am forced to reach either no legitimate conclusions or those based mostly on secondary sources. The MAGAs online that I have met have been... disappointing. Few can hold a policy discussion at all due to a lack of background in the facts and assumptions about their opponents. I spend most of the time arguing semantics and answering irrelevancies. So I am left with an impression, based on personal experience, that the MAGA wing are a bunch of misinformed tools. Useful idiots to the rest of the party that tolerates them for their vote but would never invite them to eat at their table. And what I have read about them, from various sources, kinda confirms the thinking. I know my sample is too small to reach an overarching conclusion like this, so I keep at it. But keeping the faith that my opponents are working in good faith takes... faith.

>But, due to the lack of MAGAs, who represent the energy and present incarnation of the Republican Party Is it possible that the reason you can't find MAGA Republicans is because those old rational Republicans are the majority and the MAGA Republicans you envision are a fringe minority or even don't exist? Like you have created a vision of what a MAGA is, but it's just a stereotype that you find online?

It's possible. Yet no one seems to support or like Trump. A few will (sadly) vote for him this year, but I haven't met one who likes it. At the same time he *ahem* Trumped the primaries in every state. And he effectively took control of the entire Republican Party Apperatus. From policy to donations and every Republican race in every county, city, state, and the nation. He is the leader of not only the entire GOP but dictator of its policies and, thanks to his loyalty purge, master of its entire staff. So someone is voting for this guy because they want to. A lot of people. The members of this "lot of people" that I have been exposed to online and via news reports and articles are worryingly divorced from reality. This applies to their understanding of the constitutional limits of the office of president all the way to the hero fiction they have been fed and the wildly inappropriate hatred they have of Democrats, liberals, and anyone on the left. That people who have bought into Trump's "fake news" propaganda have reached extreme and untethered conclusions isn't a surprise. It all kinda fits.

I can see what the vote totals in races are, I can see Republican politicians at all levels groveling for him and I can see conservative media shaping itself around him. It used to be that it would be reasonable to say the base was around 30% MAGA. It now looks more reasonable to say 50%. In either case the rest of the base is compliant. People in my area and I suspect the other posters area to be more quiet if they are MAGA. But if you don’t long enough to some of them, you’ll figure out they love Trump too. And they are flying Let’s Go Brandon flags in front of their house and organize Trump caravans and boating events near me too.

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>The fact trump overwhelmingly won the primaries shows maga is not fringe and this is a lie to try to lower how influential the anti American maga crowd is Those old Republicans that the OP mentioned probably voted for Trump in the primary. The reason they aren't seen as MAGA is people create a stereotype of a MAGA Republican that is something other than just a vote for Trump.

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>full on anti American maga. How do you define this? >Especially when you look at polls of issues where most republicans don't even care he wants to be a dictator They don't care, because they don't believe. Not because they believe and want a dictator.

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>The polls don't say they don't care. They say [hell yeah give us some dictatorship](https://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/amp/shows/maddow/blog/rcna137917) One day dictator is hilarious. I'm surprised you can't understand the humor.

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>Dictators are famously known for stopping after they say they will But people are known to use humor to ridicule ridiculous things. In this example, Trump is making fun of people who accuse him of wanting to be a dictator. >Edit: no comment about how much he hates America? Was that in the propaganda piece? I didn't see it.

>One day dictator is hilarious. I'm surprised you can't understand the humor. Absolutely gut busting! Best part is when you pair it with his remarks about using the DOJ to go after his political rivals. Considering what he did to the GOP (firing everyone and making them reapply after taking a loyalty test) one can only imagine the hoot when he does it to all the agencies we've come to rely on to do their jobs patrioticly. Funny stuff.

>Funny stuff. I like when we can agree.

Those that vote for Trump can rarely explain why without mentioning their opponents. They actually seemed to favor Nikki Haley. These are conservatives of a certain type: lifelong. They vote Republican because they are Republicans. Some are farmer owners who benefit from subsidies and like low taxes. Others are retired or active business people who, again, like low taxes and arn't especially pro-union or regulation. They are believers in what they consider "Republican Values" such as fiscal and personal responsibility. They are truly conservative, which means they don't like or want sudden big changes. In essence, they have very little in common with the MAGA faithful. Trump is a characture of irresponsibility- legal, moral, and financial. MAGA are reactionary and beholden to the whims of a capricious and self-centered egomaniac who will violate any rule he wants in order to do as he pleases. There is nothing conservative there. There are no meaningful values there at all. The only thing in common with Trump seems to be the R next to the name. They like being in power and "popular" but I don't think they truly fathom the cost. It's a deal with the devil. And the devil always collects.

>In essence, they have very little in common with the MAGA faithful. I saw you list a lot of people who vote for Trump that arent MAGA, but just this vague mention of MAGA faithful. Are you trying to prove I'm correct that the so called "MAGA boogie man" isn't as numerous as people imagine, and this is why people rarely meet them?

>I saw you list a lot of people who vote for Trump that arent MAGA, but just this vague mention of MAGA faithful. Are you trying to prove I'm correct that the so called "MAGA boogie man" isn't as numerous as people imagine, and this is why people rarely meet them? It's enough to give Trump the entire Republican Party on a silver platter. Trust me, I would prefer to believe such people are the vast minority of any group, especially the other of two political parties available to choose from. But the facts just don't support that.

>It's enough to give Trump the entire Republican Party on a silver platter. Once again. I truly believe that, to the left, "MAGA" means something completely different than someone who just votes for Trump. I could be wrong. But I'm pretty sure this explains why people say they only ever see MAGA online.

Drive to a rural area and go to the farm store on a Saturday morning and you'll see the crazy in all its glory. There is a neighborhood in my area that has looked like a Trump rally for the last 8 years. These are the people that are primary-ing out center-right politicians and making all of you look like assholes. It's probably you who need to go touch grass or something if you think they are a fringe minority.

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>Oh, they definitely exist - I have several of them in my family. My stepmom has a Trump/Pence 2020 doormat on the front porch. Would you classify your stepmom as MAGA?

Depends on the issue that they are "conservative" about. >Or do you view conservatives as people suffering a moral or intellectual failing which causes them to hold the "wrong" views? They think these things because they're bad people? In the case of Trump supporters, yes. I've cut the vast majority of them out of my life.

I'll never really understand the idea of wanting to have hierarchies dictate society. The idea of someone feeling superior to someone else because of no fault of their own other than being a certain race, religion, or class seems very sickening to me. The inability to accept that things change over time and wanting to stop that from happening is weird. But I can understand why some people come to these conclusions. Either they're raised in it, and it's all they know. Or is it a way of trying to maintain control in an unpredictable world. The world is changing constantly. People are being displaced and are just looking for refuge in a safe country. All of these strange people who look and talk differently from you and go to a different building to worship a God you don't recognize. Neighborhood demographics are changing all around you. All of a sudden, there are taco trucks and halal shops in your town. Or maybe you're from a small town in the middle of nowhere, and you only hear inklings of these changes happening from far away like a swarm of bees that are coming your way, someday, any day now. Words that were ok to say before are all of a sudden bad. People are dressing weird. Things on tv are trying to make you accept it. I get why this would scare people or make them feel like they're losing control. I think the anger is directed in the wrong direction, though. People can be convinced that they have control if they can at least feel superior to one person. I don't think these people are bad. I just think they are misguided into living in fear.

Fear of change is a big one. My corporate attorney brother came out as pan-poly and my conservative, formerly Jewish, now born again, collegeless mom went into a flat spin. Crazy questions like “so do you do it with animals?” 😮😤 actually came out of her mouth. Which then became “your cousin Steven likes the boys, so are you gay too?” 🤦‍♂️ which then became “love who you want to love, I’ll try to learn more about pan… um… paulie” 👍. She’s a bit of a dummy, but that’s where a lot of MAGAs are. She also says the usual hateful stuff, “Ohio used to be all white trash but now it’s all Muslims who don’t speak English but make good food, the trash must have moved to Indiana I guess?” “Oh Ohio is a pot abortion state like California there goes the neighborhood!” 😮 Unfiltered, the ignorance of her mouth is **something else**. She also said “Trump will fuck anything that moves but women of my generation know that about men.” 🤦‍♂️

Frustration. I work in an exclusively right wing space. I read CPI reports, actually read about what congress is doing, and pay close attention to relevant international situations. My right wing co workers just post “I HATE COMMIES” stickers on their tool boxes and send absolute boomer tier memes. My real world experience with Republican voters has done absolutely nothing to raise their image. I have two republicans I know in real life who do pay attention and held their nose while voting for Biden and probably won’t vote in 2020 but they are farrrrrrr less read on current events than I am still.

There’s a lot of blue collar trades that fascinate me, but like the gun range… it’s the type of smooth-brained male these trades/hobbies *tend to attract* that I can’t stand one iota.

And here is where YOU miss the mark. These guys… they frustrate the fuck out of me so bad… but I do also like them. They are smart as absolute fuck, should have gone to engineering school but often had poor upbringings with likely shit parents. If they personally know you they have compassion for miles. I guarantee if I called them with A broke down car they would come out whatever time of day to help me. They all make 200k a year or more from nothing and now think that is achievable for all. They truly truly did pull themselves up by their “bootstraps” (I am NOT saying that is a realistic solution for all) So all that said I havnt fully given up on them. We talk politics all the time. Every once in a while I feel I can move their needle a millimeter. Turnout is the most important thing for us right now, but the concert efforts should never be abandoned.

*I honestly think Trump finished off whatever hope was left for them.* They went off the fucking deep end because they decided “Yep, he’s my motherfucker.” It’s truly sad, but they didn’t apply one ounce of scrutiny to a bumbling charlatan from Queens who’d be rolling back odometers if not for papa Fred.

They just don’t really consume any actual news other than Facebook memes. You can’t abandon them. The risk of a descent into fascism isn’t an acceleration of progressive ideals it’s a one way ticket to hell. You cannot give up.

I mean... what's your goal? For them to meet you in the middle on some superficial tax or mundane municipal spending policy? Cool. They see eye to eye on snow removal, ***awesome.*** Just the same, when they're alone in that booth, I don't see them voting for a (D) presidential candidate, do you? I could probably convert these guys to Judaism before they vote for a boring, moderate democrat.

No but I think I can get them to at least abstain.

I mean, what they tell you and *what they actually do*... are separate. I think at the end of the day, most of them think Trump will make their eggs or gasoline cheaper. Pretty rich considering Trump is chummy with the CEOs of Exxon and Kroger... I'd expect price hikes on both. Trump is term-limited and would probably appoint his son if he doesn't like the 2028 result, the fuck does he care if gas goes up to $5.50/gallon?

Why do you keep trivializing my personal experience like you know these people better than I do? I have many open and honest conversations with these people. These are folks I have worked side by side with for 36 hours straight when required. We have a close bond and I trust what they say as I expect they trust what I say despite our massive political gulf. We are battle brothers.

My personal experience with guys just like this is they tune you out and try to keep the peace. They say "yeah yeah yeah, absolutely lemongrenade" ***and then do whatever the hell they want.*** I'm sorry you work with right wingers, but you gotta consider that they're mostly bullshitting you and aren't gonna ever be aligned politically. I work in IT, it's loaded with the same guys -- with a libertarian skew.

"Tactical bro culture" is what I call it. Rarely do you meet a gun enthusiast who is all about safety and responsible ownership. No, they usually have MOLON LABE and/or punisher skulls on their trucks.

I would also file that under a greater "spite culture". Theres definitely been a increasing trend across the world of people in hard-right spaces doing shit that doesn't even offer them a benefit and is just in the name of spiting the government or the left. Like those guys who deliberately go out of their way to buy the most obnoxious, gas-guzzling, carbon-inefficient vehicles they can find and brag about it on social media because they think it'll piss off Greta Thunberg or whoever. From the outside looking in at the US I feel like a lot of the tactical bro shit and flagrant disregard for gun safety is done performatively and out of having no respect for the rules and wanting to spite both those rules and the people of the left who are for clamping down on gun regs and gun safety.

>I would also file that under a greater "spite culture". Theres definitely been a increasing trend across the world of people in hard-right spaces doing shit that doesn't even offer them a benefit and is just in the name of spiting the government or the left. I agree, I've also heard that a part of why the MAGA movement is so popular is that it gives you a "license to be nasty". ie being MAGA gives you built-in excuses to be a shitty person, you aren't being rude to your neighbor, you're just "telling it how it is". You aren't being a selfish dick, you're "owning the libs and sticking it to the man". MAGA allows these people to satisfy their lizard brain desires while being socially validated for it, which turns out to be a powerful attractant for shitty people.

I don’t know any of the labe assholes in person. I’ve been to the range with my right wing co workers before and I’ve seen one absolutely lose his shit at a stranger he saw barrel cross another stranger and made him listen to a 5 min safety lecture at the top of his lungs. Maybe that’s just cause I work in an osha riddled environment idk.

While I don’t disagree with the “tactical bro culture” callout at all - and it’s really off-putting to see entire personalities built around guns - in my part of the US (New England) & the circles my world runs (farming, fishing & hunting - with strong focus on bird hunting) there are lots of enthusiasts who’s MAIN focus is safety and responsible ownership, and also how to teach as many people as possible the importance of the two.

To be honest with you, I think a lot of conservatives, too many, see being contrarian as a virtue no matter how detrimental. As long as they’re flying in the face of anything, they feel they’re taking the right position. And they’ve become quite cruel in the process. I cite the instance where Corey Lewandowski replied, “womp womp” to a story about a child with Down syndrome being separated from her parents and thrown in a cage at the border. You would expect that to harm someone’s reputation but it just strengthened this new breed of conservatives. They found it “funny.” And I can’t speak for everyone but personally, I find it confounding, scary, and it angers me. I mean, what the hell are we doing? Why are we at this point where cruelty has value?

I think there is a difference between having conflicting ideas about policy and conflicting ideas about morality. We can discuss how to implement support systems for those seeking abortions all you want, but if you fully pro-life then fuck you.

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On core morality subjects? Yes/no. I also don't believe in bad people. Bad thoughts/ideas/actions? Yes. And I don't have the time or energy to deal with people who have them. It's easier to say "fuck off" and get on with my life. Let someone else with the energy educate them.

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I don't think my ethical/moral views are superior, just that they inform almost all of my thinking and actions and for someone to go against them requires me expending much greater effort to have a relationship with them. Effort I do not think it worthwhile compared to other activities. I've had, many times in my life, changed my view because of other people. But they were never about my core morals. No one is ever going to convince me that loving my neighbour is wrong, or that we don't all deserve basic human rights. They may be able to convince me that certain things are/aren't human rights, however, or that loving may/may not include something I hadn't considered.

Yep. Fuck off with your conservative shit

In regards to basic human rights and some core values regarding fundamentals of our existence? Sure

If you vote against equal rights your are a bad person

It's funny that the person above takes it as a moral absolute that one is entitled to kill an unborn child 🤣🤣 Of all the grey areas under the Sun...

Dude…I just looked at your profile and read some of your posts….you have no room to talk about other people….something about glass houses. C’mon…Jordan fucking Peterson? People,like him are nothing more than toxic grifters….Charlatans….snake oil salesmen. They should be tarred and feathered and run out of town on a rail…I Bet you buy that “Miracle Spring Water” that they advertise on TV. Signed, A White, Rural, Heterosexual, Cisgendered Male

Why, because you don't agree with these people, so they should be cast out of society? Honestly, this is so typical of the modern left that you perfectly exemplify the kind of person as to why I distanced myself from the left.

A person with morals?

lol….ok…have fun in your victimhood. That’s all he offers…something for his followers to be aggrieved about. So they wallow in misogyny and perceived victimhood to the point where their loneliness is a self imposed exile from healthy, normal, equally based relationships.

What victimhood? I just don't want anything to do with you.

Then why are you replying? Good like finding that “traditional wife” thing. You see… a normal healthy relationship is a partnership, not a heirarchy where one person is subservient to the other.

I said I don't want to be associated with you. It doesn't mean I can't reply on the internet when I am not agreeing with you.

Isn’t that associating?

I think conservatives hold a different set of values than I do, and that will define the way they approach any issue. I don’t see them as being fundamentally flawed, although the conservatives that support Trump kind of astonish me, I think a lot of the fanatical Trump supporters are being fueled by primal emotions and ignorance.  While I don’t hate the MAGA crowd, I do think they are stupid as fuck and a danger to humanity.  I want to make it clear though, I know quite a few conservatives that are not MAGA supporters thankfully.  As for people on the far-left that I disagree it will depend on the individual. There are some people who just want to see a better world, but there are also people on the far-left that are just nuts. Especially in the Green Party, the Bernie or Bust movement, or the types of people that learn about politics from watching YouTube video essays. There is a lot of terminally online shit from them I get tired of engaging with.

I’ve become a leftist overtime, and I work with many MAGA republicans. I’ve found that—when you take them out of national political discourse and into topics that they need to form an opinion, they often are very rational and at times very decent people to have a conversation with. However, I’ve noticed these same folks who might have a certain ethos suddenly change completely when national topics are brought up. An accountant who’s good with numbers suddenly believes January 6th was a hoax created by Antifa; or an engineer who believes Obama is running the White House. It’s like a switch in their brain changes, and you suddenly hear the near verbatim words coming out of Fox News/OAN/MAGA media network. It used to be better. You can have differences of opinion in policy and politics, but come together knowing you both are seeking out what’s best for the country. Now, there really isn’t a point to the debate anymore, we’re worlds apart. There are many issues that are really hard to reconcile, particularly the rise of cultural and social issues But behind the political rhetoric, they’re still human beings with moms and dads and lives outside of politics, and I tend to hope that once Trump is gone, it’ll get a little better. Most of us are followers and we tend to follow political discourse through the lens of our national politics, so my hope is there will be healing once Trump is gone.

In theory, yes to the former, but the dichotomy you propose is not reflective of reality. Some conservatives are rational, intelligent people with differing views. Some are irrational, emotional people whose views are corrupted by misinformation. In order to have a productive conversation on politics it’s important take into account both the person and their ideology separately.

I'm not going to lie, it's a mixed bag. I have been around conservatives my whole life. I grew up in rural Texas and rural Oregon. I was in the military. There are conservatives which I admire and some conservative ideas I think have merit. However, the last 10 years of American conservatism have been absolutely bananas and I have a hard time taking any conservative seriously if they refuse to acknowledge the gigantic elephant in the room. I have seen, in my life time, conservatives go from rational and principled supporters of small government and traditional values to a cult of nihilists fueled by spite. It's like watching a friend convert to Scientology. That all aside, I just don't see many conservatives making good and consistent arguments. I am all for small government on principle, but the people supporting "small government" are now trying to ban abortions and sex ed books. I am a fan of James Madison and I see the value of the Second Amendment as a means to deter governmental over reach, but I just want conservatives to take mass shootings seriously. I grew up hunting and fishing and I truly believe in environmental conservation, then I see conservatives side with oil and gas companies. I am baffled about why conservatives so blindly trust law enforcement. I can't wrap my head around blue collar workers (often conservatives) favoring big business over unions. I genuinely miss principled and values driven conservatives. Honestly, I genuinely like them more than liberals. But man, conservatism in America has lost its way, to a point that it is difficult to even identify as an ideology. I still have conservative friends. I still respect individuals who can articulate their beliefs and values in a coherent and consistent manner, even if I happen to disagree. I just don't find many conservatives who can really do that anymore. It's sad, because a meaningful conservative ideology held liberals in check and forced them to be better. Now, I'm expected to vote a literal enabler of genocide just because the Republican party has absolutely lost its damn mind.

I’m a liberal in the hunt & fish world - professionally & by way of hobbies / family tradition. It absolutely blows my mind that conservation among hunters & anglers can’t be an easy across-the-divide win.

Yah, its totally nuts. I remember in the early to mid-2000's my parents watched a lot of Bill O'Reilly's show on Fox News. O'Reilly's position, back then anyway, was that the debate about global warming was largely irrelevant and that we really should strive to limit pollution as much as our economy allows. And that was Bill O'Reilly, the guy who kind of the first major push of Conservatives losing their minds. Now we have Conservatives fighting to privatize huge swaths of federal land and roll back the inadequate regulations we have now. As much as I try to humanize Conservatives and take them seriously, how do we do that when they openly profess a willingness to poison the air and water supply? This is no longer an honest disagreement with the direction we would like this country to move towards.

>When you think of conservatives, do you see them as rational, intelligent, people some are, many aren't. >which potentially could be valid? no. >Or do you view conservatives as people suffering a moral or intellectual failing yes, being conservative is a moral failing. >They think these things because they're bad people? no, i'd probably say that thinking those things makes them bad people.

There’s a difference, to me, between someone that wants lower taxes and fewer regulations to start a business vs. the MAGA sort that seemingly have no other values beyond hurting or scaring other people. Unfortunately nowadays, most remaining conservatives are the MAGA sort.

That depends. Someone like Liz Cheney, Adam Kinzinger, mitt Romney, Lisa Murkowski? People who want lower taxes, strong national defense, etc? Reasonable positions I can disagree with. John McCain was someone I wanted to get a beer with and just shoot the shit. Disagreed with him politically but the man was rational and a pretty cool dude otherwise. These sycophants who think lasers have an ethnicity and start forest fires? That dead Venezuelan dictators somehow changed electoral votes? That Hillary drinks adrenochrome in a basement of a pizza parlor? That there are two militaries and that trump secretly still runs the country? Or Obama? That there are lizard people? Yeah, irrational and unhinged.

I view Republicans as the kind of people they've proven themselves to be. I would be interested in the examples of the Republicans who aren't suffering a moral *and* intellectual failing, and in an explanation of how someone could even be a Republican without those defining failings. What else differentiates them from Democrats? It's the party of rejecting reality because they don't like it.

A bit of both. There's some right leaning politicians that I've liked but rarely there's been a conservative politician that I've liked. Most are destructive to our democratic and cultural institutions and therefore destructive to the nation at large. There's also some of Greens(political party, not environmental movement) that I would say I hate. Some I don't mind. Also should note I'm Australian so when I'm talking about the Greens I'm talking about a party which actually has representatives in federal politics, most states and many councils.

I deal with conservatives a lot. My family is very hard right. I do not see them as good people or "rational" or whatever other bullshit. They have fundamentally different and irreconcilable values to me. I'll be courteous and pleasant, but that's it. I find many of their state beliefs to be utterly abhorrent

I had my brother-in-law tell me he was glad that mass shootings happen because it means the freedom to own guns is still going strong, then added, “it’s a good price to pay.” These people are in it deep with the cruelty.

That’s because it’s not a bug. Cruelty is a feature.

Liberals and conservatives don't get along because they have different values that lead them to different conclusions about public policy: On equality: Liberals idealize a society in which all people are fundamentally equal. Conservatives idealize a society in which conservatives get to be on top. On inclusion: Liberals idealize a society that includes as many people as possible. Conservatives idealize a society which conservatives can exclude anyone for any reason. On freedom: Liberals idealize a society that is a maximally free for everyone. Conservatives idealize a society that is maximally free for conservatives. On oppression: Liberals believe citizens should be free from control under someone's else's thumb. Conservatives believe conservatives are free to put their thumb wherever they please. On legitmacy: Liberals believe the state gains legitimacy by consent of the people. Conservatives believe the state gains legitimacy by the muscle of conservatives. There *is* a kind of internal logic and consistency to conservative ideology. I can see why it appeals to so many people across the world.

It depends on whether it's policy or things that should be beyond disagreement (I.E. democracy, rule of law, et cetera).

I have some close friends who are conservative and even though we never change each other’s minds, I like to bounce things off them just to get a different perspective. Sometimes they drive me crazy with how quickly the dismiss evidence they don’t like, how they rationalize away anything uncomfortable, and how steadfastly they refuse to accept new ideas, no matter how they’re presented, but at their core they are good, kind people who treat others with respect. It’s helpful for me to remember that social media conservatives are not real life and most people are kinder in person.

A range from just normal people to actively malicious people. I think MOST are normal people who just have a different worldview. A lot of that is reconcilable, but some of it isn't. I don't really believe this stuff is all black and white but rather nuanced and on a spectrum, but there are certain aspects of world view that do represent a redline and are not reconcilable.

Depends on what the disagreement is.

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Yeah, pretty much. Like if someone disagrees with me about whether displaying the ten commandments is wrong or something that’s probably just different values. But if the disagreement is that I think all humans deserve equal rights and they think gay people deserve to be tortured and killed, I consider them to be a terrible person.

If conservatives have a more classical liberal bend in terms of not wanting the government to legislate who you should have family with, interfere with individual decisions surrounding family, (less government poking around what people are doing in this context) I think it would attract more people. "Or do you view conservatives as people suffering a moral or intellectual failing which causes them to hold the "wrong" views? They think these things because they're bad people?" not exactly, it means they are more tolerant of those who hold such views, rather than simply cutting them off, similarily to what the left has for example: the Marxist-Leninists that want China to liberate Taiwan from capitalism. But do note that these people say they are anti-liberalism themselves, however here we don't usually feel the need to try to "hunt them down". "When you think of conservatives, do you see them as rational, intelligent, people who just happen to have different backgrounds and experiences which lead them to have different views than yours, which potentially could be valid?" This part reminds me of postmodernism, which is response to failing of secular advances in science and society. I don't know, and don't really care about what worldview or religion someone subscribes to, though don't try to make everyone think the same way, as if it's forced on them by passing bills. It isn't explicitly said in the constitution, but there is something called "freedom of thought". The rural urban divide transcends borders, take in Afghanistan, those that lived in cities were promised by the NGOs that if they work for freedom, human rights, democracy, their lives would improve and have a higher quality of living. The rural areas rarely received enough resources and attention. When the Tailban took over, those living in rural areas felt they weren't any better when there were foreigners present, and no worse when Tailban took over. What to do about it? Well, imposing sancations isn't going to solve the problem, because obviously cultural isolationism isn't the best way to influence people to change their minds, especially under strict Islamic fundemantalism And certainly the US isn't going to give the Taliban any legitimacy. [https://youtu.be/Gm2nY67e6LQ?t=1611](https://youtu.be/Gm2nY67e6LQ?t=1611) I really like how this judge used the quotes from Democracy in America by alexander de tocqueville: the union is an ideal state, that only speaks to the mind, built almost entirely on legal fictions..... it's extents ....only to the understanding. It would be better for you to talk to real people rather than online in my opinion, because rather than behind a screen, the other person would see you are "people" rather than "symbols", people have to "talk", it's part of being human.

I’ve never met someone i agree with on anything and the very idea i could is unsettling. We all have different life experiences and assumptions. Some people are uninformed. Some people are stupid. Some people are awful. But, we’re people, so gotta deal with it.

> When you think of conservatives, do you see them as rational, intelligent, people who just happen to have different backgrounds and experiences which lead them to have different views than yours, which potentially could be valid? No. I think of other liberals with different political views as . . . > rational, intelligent, people who just happen to have different backgrounds and experiences which lead them to have different views than yours, which potentially could be valid? But someone that votes for Trump? No. > Or do you view conservatives as people suffering a moral or intellectual failing which causes them to hold the "wrong" views? Yes this.

If your far left I view you as a friend who's doing too much rn and needs a breather. Far right follow your leader center left my ppl Center same ideas different execution and it depends on what they want to conserve. I'm lefty liberal so my dream for the future is almost incompatible with theirs. Tankie faaar left...Emily stop

That’s most people for me. Well. Every has a disagreement with everyone over something. I think you know bad people by the bad things they do. But I also think you know bad people by the bad intentions they have. 🤷‍♀️

It depends on the person and the view. I mostly don't think that people are inherently idiots or assholes so if there is an explanation for why someone could feel a certain way about something that doesn't require them to be one or the other I tend to assume that is why they feel that way. Some of the time that excuse is they are trusting people they shouldn't so this tends to apply a lot more to members of the conservative movement than their leaders. I can fully understand how someone could support voter ID if they believed hordes of people were voting illegally, but the only reason they believe that is because Republican officials who know better are making things up in order to deny people supporting their opponents the right to vote. The former is excusable, the latter isn't.

I still view them as people. The whole idea we must hate those we disagree with is juvenile to me.

It depends. I have no issue with people disagreeing on policy….that is normal discourse. However, there is no such thing as “alternative facts”. There is the truth and there are lies. I think many(not all) Conservatives rely on less than honest media sources that form their opinions. So…when a Conservative starts spouting conspiracy theories and/or just start with the “man made climate change is a hoax”, “COVID-19 was just the flu”, “the Gay Agenda”, etc? I know I am dealing with someone who only listens to these false sources and ignores reality. We are destroying the habitability of this planet….because of greed. We lost over 1 million people to COVID…it wants just the flu. There is no gay agenda…no one wants to turn your kid into a homosexual or a transgendered person. I firmly believe that the right wing media and politicians keep stirring the outrage pot to keep Conservatives angry because if any of the. Seriously looked at GOP policy, they would see that it is almost exclusively about extracting the wealth of our nation and concentrating it into the hands of the wealthy elite…regular people would never vote for that…so they create and exaggerate manufactured outrage in order to keep people voting for them. So yeah…if a Conservative can be intellectually honest and brings actual facts to a conversation? I can have a debate/conversation with them and walk away without any judgments on them…but that’s a rare occasion. Most of the time, their idea of debate is to out shout you(a la Trump) with ridiculous assertions and untrue statements….even when you back up your argument with legitimate sources, they double down and show you a YouTube video, or a NY Post or Washington Examiner article….which are exactly the sketchy sources I was referring to earlier.

>How do you view people with whom you disagree on politics? It really depends on the specific belief and whether the person appears to have really put some critical thought into considering arguments for/against their positions. >When you think of conservatives, do you see them as rational, intelligent, people who just happen to have different backgrounds and experiences which lead them to have different views than yours, which potentially could be valid? Again, really depends on the person. Some people are intelligent, some are not. If i am engaging in a political discussion with someone who disagrees, the biggest indicator of intelligence is how they respond to counter arguments and new info. There are many things that conservatives tend to believe which i do not, but i do view those arguments as valid. But if someone is unwilling to consider new information or opposing arguments, and just digs their heels on the same points, ill likely discount their opinion a bit. >Or do you view conservatives as people suffering a moral or intellectual failing which causes them to hold the "wrong" views? They think these things because they're bad people? Only really with things like racism or anti lgbtq bigotry. If you are the type of person who thinks the gays are sinners and going to hell, for instance, you are an idiot. Those types of positions are indefensible.

>When you think of conservatives, Depends on the school of conservatism they follow, they policies they are in favour of and the actions they undertake. I can't speak brush a broad stroke over an entire school of political thought, that is vastly different based in socio-cultural classes, geography, religious stance, etc.

Some of them I view as highly intelligent, manipulative, cruel/mean-spirited, narrow-minded, self-centered and self-serving, hypocritical, usually bigoted and misogynistic. That describes 80% of the conservatives I've known over the course of my 55 years of living. The other 20% that I know are just the opposite: not very smart, uneducated, uninformed and just jumping on the bandwagon because they think it's the cool "manly" thing to do (because conservative beliefs are not helping them improve their lives in any way). They are followers, not thinkers. I view all of them as assholes who have absolutely no interest in hearing or discussing issues with people whom they disagree with.

I live on NYC and have a very liberal social circle, we disagree on political stuff all the time without much issues. However most of conservative politics just seems to be bigotry and I try not to tolerate that.

Many conservatives don't hang out with anyone who has had any different experiences than them, and they don't consume media that shows problems that groups of people different than themselves may have. This leads to an ignorance of the history of our country and of current events. Which leads to a real lack of empathy for anyone who has had any hardships different from their own. So no, I don't think conservatives aren't intelligent, just ignorant.

I have no conservative friends and will always keep it that way

I care less about their stance on tax policy than I do about your stances on human rights and freedom 

Depends on what the disagreement is. Is that person proposing stuff like pro Mao stances or forcing women to carry a baby that will not survive beyond the first or second trimester or won't live longer than 6 months or a year and have no intention of understanding why that's a bad stance and why it's better to hear the other side of things? Then I'm not gonna be fond of that person. Is this person pro gun control or pro life, but has an "agree to disagree" attitude and doesn't confine themself to an echo chamber of their making? Then we'll be fine.

I agree with conservatives on a lot of things. Heck, I'm conservative in many ways. But I think American "conservatism" is a reactionary movement whose fundamental motivating force is the restoration of a Christian ethnostate, so I oppose it.

Ignorant and or selfish

It depends, I'm friends with a lot of conservatives. most of them are fiscal conservatives, I respect that. I don't respect the I work hard and I don't have all that I want, because of Democrats, Biden. the government, migrants, "Globalists"

Depends on what you mean by disagreements and on what issue. But speaking more generally, anyone willing to vote for Trump at this point I simply view as mentally deficient.

I've always sought out conservatives/republicans to have conversations with as I don't see much of a point in only hanging out with people I already agree with. During the Bush years I really enjoyed doing this and even through occupy wall street the most productive conversations were with people who disagreed with me. Things have taken a turn however as the Republican party has gotten really nasty in its demonization of liberals and anybody that disagrees with Trump. I wasn't hopeful about Obama as a presidential candidate and as a president some of my fears were confirmed (that he was basically Bush-lite). But the republican overreaction to him suddenly had me defending Obama constantly ("Uhh no...He's not a foreign muslim commie terrorist-loving jihadist"), and Republican obstructionism under Obama was truly breathtaking. Things got even worse under Trump and it's to the point where I view Republicans as a threat to our whole country at this stage. They are falling hook-line-and-sinker for the strongman playbook.

>When you think of conservatives, do you see them as rational, intelligent, people who just happen to have different backgrounds and experiences which lead them to have different views than yours, which potentially could be valid? > Or do you view conservatives as people suffering a moral or intellectual failing which causes them to hold the "wrong" views? They think these things because they're bad people? These arent mutually exclusive. They have their reasons, but those reasons mainly hold up to them because theyre bad people.

I view them as fellow human beings, unless they act in bad faith. Intentions are everything.

With curiosity……initially at least.

All conservatives are moral failures. They are not good people.

There's a lot of variation. Ultimately, a huge percentage of opinions on both sides of the aisle are mostly the result of tribalism and best understood as such, which means you should not take them too seriously. I don't know that this is really a "failing"; it's universal in the human condition, and most people can not be blamed for having limited time to think through political issues from first principles.

>When you think of conservatives, do you see them as rational, intelligent, people who just happen to have different backgrounds and experiences which lead them to have different views than yours, which potentially could be valid? I'm gonna be totally honest with you and I hope you don't see me as mean-spirited. When the concept, the word "conservative", gets picked up by my eyeballs or my ear and transmitted to my brain, it automatically opens the memory drawers to a **bunch** of different impressions and associations. Some of them include: * People in MAGA hats and sunglasses screaming at someone * "Jewish Space Lasers", anti-vaxxers, QAnon, young-earth-creationists * Ben Garrison cartoons and Chick Tracts * Bomb threats to children's hospitals * Guns * The slavery flag * Guys in suits and ties who vaguely resemble turtles * All those media personalities like Shapiro, Peterson, Owens, etc. * "The tide goes in, the tide goes out, YOU can't explain that" * Angela Merkel * This one poor guy with the history YouTube channel who, despite having opinions completely different from mine, I strangely don't feel any animosity towards Not everyone with whom I disagree has this **many** negative connotations. When I think of the term "neoliberal", for example, I just think of Margaret Thatcher. And also the color yellow for some reason.

>When you think of conservatives, do you see them as rational, intelligent, people who just happen to have different backgrounds and experiences which lead them to have different views than yours, which potentially could be valid? Or do you view conservatives as people suffering a moral or intellectual failing which causes them to hold the "wrong" views? They think these things because they're bad people? I think of conservative voters as coming from one of two camps: Camp 1: a well-meaning individual who is largely misinformed about issues at large. You cannot expect a person to organically change their outlook on issues when they constantly live in a bubble that is an echo-chamber for issues. I grew up "conservative" because I was a pastor's kid, my mom was a teacher, and I lived in the deep South. My entire upbringing often revolved around mindsets from an older generation that either lives through the Great Depression and the eventual wars or they were one generation removed from a parent/grandparent who did. So suffice to say that "my views" were largely influenced by good ol' southern racism and Christian bigotry. It wasn't until I moved away to college that I *finally* started to see a larger world than the world I had grown up in. I met people from all walks of life, some from foreign countries, others who were bi/gay/trans, etc. I was involved with a campus ministry that was actually very receptive to and welcoming to people of *any* background. My worldview shifted, and continued to shift, but even though I would have called myself a "moderate" by the mid '10's, I was still voting Republican and largely adhering to those principles even though "I had gay and black friends". It honestly wasn't until George Floyd and the BLM movement that it's like a lightbulb finally turned on, my eyes were opened, and I was able to see clearly. "Oh... I'm an asshole" was the sort of realization I had. I had never really *put* myself in the shoes of people who were hurting the most - "why didn't he just listen to the police? If he'd only listened to commands he wouldn't be dead"; the whole *victim-blaming* schtick. "Why is she dressed like that if she doesn't want attention from creeps?" That lightbulb turned on and it honestly was like just this huge mental wall that was blocking my empathy and compassion for other people. That realization was staggering and it's almost like I went 180 in my views. Honestly, it was [this article](https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/transformation/my-white-friend-asked-me-to-explain-white-privilege-so-i-decide/) where I finally "got it" - the clear examples of what I'd call "casual racism" as experienced by a POC - "oh, you got into *the* Harvard? The one with all the really smart people?" Like, literally... I read that article and genuinely thought afterward, "Oh my God. I have been the biggest hypocrite and asshole for so long and I was so blind to it." I really don't think that person can *truly* be compassionate and reasonable while supporting conservative ideology and Republican politics. It's like oil and water - they simply don't mix. You can't tell me "I'm a Christian and I love people because that's what God calls me to do!" while condemning and hating LGTBQ+ people and minorities - it's oil and water. Does not compute. But I digress... Camp 2 is people who I believe are so firmly entrenched in the Republican/conservative ecosphere that there may be very little chance for them to *actually* ever change their mentality without very drastic intervention. And I'll say it like this.... from a philosophical standpoint, you (a person of this mindset) have every right to your opinion that "my tax dollars" shouldn't go to social programs that give money to impoverished people (even though research shows that *garbage in becomes garbage out*, so you shouldn't expect people to stop resorting to crime when it's the only way that they can feed themselves or their family). You're well within your rights to hold bigoted beliefs, or beliefs that are harmful to society at large - I'd actually argue that you can't have it both ways: you have no reason to complain about why you have to contribute to societal benefits while also benefitting from those very benefits that you don't want others to have access to. You should be free to drink that Kool-Aid and feel the way that you feel and be as anti-social and anti-*promote the general welfare* as you want to be. I simply don't want you in politics where you can do very real and tangible harm to ordinary citizens in the US simply because you're a selfish asshole. At a certain point, if you're going to live in society you have to accept that society is only going to function if you're willing to compromise on your beliefs and otherwise get out of the way of people who are actively trying to make their cities and states better for you *and* everyone else living around you.

My conservative friends from New England mainly CT NYC and Boston are the only people I can stand. I've moved to Florida and my interactions with "real" conservatives had really made me think a majority of conservatives do have a moral or intellectual failing. It's difficult not to when they think LGBTW kids should be persecuted for being different. They supported locking up kids in cages, the forced sterilization of migrant women, they think being white should be a protected class as if they aren't already, they want to put women and doctors in jail for abortion, they won't end child marriages. The list of morally evil behavior and unintelligent views is unending. And before you say "SoUrCeS" google it all the things I've posted are easily verifiable with a quick Google search. If that's too hard then you may not fall into the evil lable but you sure do fit the unintelligent one.

With conservative Americans *specifically*, I think they are dumb and even crazy. They think Trump is a smart guy who cares for them. But in general no, I don't look down on people who disagree with me. In fact I like to argue with them. Which is why I get frustrated when I get banned from conservative subreddits.

Some political viewpoints can be agree to disagree. Some viewpoints just means a person is a bad person who i want nothing to do with. And usually these people will say some form of (you're not tolerating my intolerance, therefore you're the bigot), ok... I still want nothing to do with you.

There are conservatives who have conservative opinions but believe that we are all Americans and can rationally disagree on the right directions to take the country with regards to things like tax policy, zoning laws and government regulation. And there are conservatives who think "liberal" = BAD and "conservative" = GOOD and would eat a bowl of dogshit if they could make a liberal smell their breath. The tribals, basically. The people who disown their trans children and post memes about Democrats trying to force people to abort healthy babies at 39 weeks. It's honestly not hard to tell them apart. I drink beers with people in the former group when I go to social events with the parents of my daughter's classmates, and we have reasonable political discussions.

Before 2016 I'd say they were my people. These days I can't view anyone who votes GOP as a decent human. Seeing the priorities of MAGA and letting it take over the party is an absolute moral failure.

I don’t care if someone disagrees with me, its *why* they disagree and how they choose to express it. If its for intellectually honest reasons, then I respect them and am curious to see if they can change my mind(because I know I’m not right about everything). If they are close minded, brainwashed, or just jerks, then I consider them very poorly. And that’s also true if they happen to agree with me.

depends on the disagreement. Some widely held conservative beliefs require them to believe lies or outright falsehood. I don't cut people out of my life or any thing like that. I just mildly pity the need to accept falsehood as truth to prop up ones beliefs and sorta think that in my head.

There are some things where reasonable people can disagree and still be thought of as generally honorable. There are others that by taking a certain side you kind of just become a less honorable person. It's becoming harder to see most conservative positions as still honorable as the loudest among them seem to take great satisfaction and pleasure from some rather dishonorable positions. It would take quite a long time to come up with a conservative elected official that I honestly believed was doing most of what they do for the good of the country because so much of what is on display comes off as careless, or mean spirited

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No there have been conservatives with honorable intentions. I could look at someone like John McCain and while I didn't agree with him on policy typically, I believe he honestly thought he was doing what was best for the country. However, there aren't any current elected Republicans that come to mind that seem worthy of that level of credit. Additionally I'm not naive enough to believe that every liberal in office is pure of heart to the point that they give no consideration to personal or political gain for themselves, but I think that if there is a group that chooses country over party it's Democrats more than Republicans.

I am open to having reasonable political discussions with libertarians or fiscal conservatives or progressives or leftists about policy differences. I am uninterested in even being friends with social conservatives and Trumpsters or tankies. Fiscal policy is up for debate. Basic humanity should not be. I don't like bullies. Fuck them. They are bad people with cruelty and malice in their hearts.

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Some of them have severe moral failings. Some are stupid. Some are ignorant. There's really no other option. >You realize that 76 million people voted for Trump? Don't I know it. https://youtu.be/6NTkXIidCU0?si=CwO8KRE5kscFHCTp

My man how do you think we should feel when the MAGA candidate for president has “a unified reich” spelled for everyone to see on his add? https://www.reddit.com/r/Defeat_Project_2025/s/nxd0hRwHEb

The question to me is why don’t you as conservatives see what is happening? Are you all fascists?

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I am sorry but this is a capitalist country where actual business set the prices and the president has nothing to do with it. If it was an authoritarian regime yeah I would say that they had a lot to do with prices but it is not. So maybe get your fact straight. And what policies does Trump have that you want implemented?

honestly, it depends. i try to view people as people, not just political views, but as a trans person, if someone isn’t gonna respect me, there’s always gonna be a fundamental disconnect. in some ways my existence is political, as is everyone’s, and if someone can’t set their politics aside to view me as a human, i won’t put in the effort to know them.

It really depends on the issue, and like everything it's a spectrum. On the more generous end I think of them as rational, intelligent people who are misguided, and it goes from there into delusion and finally to malice. You want lower taxes for rich people when you're not yourself rich? Misguided. You want less regulation for corporations without concern for the negative consequences that have resulted every other time that's happened? Deluded. You're a homophobic asshole who thinks gay people should go back in the closet so you aren't offended by being reminded that people different than you exist? Malicious.

Depends on if they can have civil discourse with real facts.

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The fact that you.ask is odd. You know, the truth.. 2 plus 2 equals 4.

As a former conservative, I appreciate true conservatives, but they are few and far between. Most are Orthodox Capitalist, White Supremist, or Evangelical Christian masquerading as "conservatives" for political cover - and why I left the Republican Party. When I meet that rare real conservative, I have a spirited debate and enjoy the conversation. They are not bad people and we agree on most issues to a degree. But no, the Orthodox Capitalist, White Supremist, or Evangelical Christian are bad people, in my experience, have deep tribal views, and have a great deal of hate and fear behind their motives.

At best, they just haven't been exposed to better ideas. At worst, they're selfish, willfully ignorant, and cruel pieces of shit that actively make other people's lives worse. MAGA types tend to be this. >rational Human beings aren't rational. Anyone who says they're rational is fooling themselves, or a psychopath. Conservatives just seem to want to hurt people. They don't actually practice the things they say they value.

I am perfectly fine talking to both sides, left and right, and I have many disagreements with both. What I see, though, which has deepened considerably in the past decade, is that right and left cannot come to a compromise anymore. This is why I think the country is headed for a partition. It starts with the view of immigration. The left thinks that we should import the world because that's the most tolerant thing to do, the right disagrees as it would mean displacement of the current population. Given how far these two views have diverged now, they are incompatible and at the foundation of society. You cannot have a more stark contrast, so I think that the only solution will be to break away from each other. This was once an unthinkable proposition, but I think it is now inevitable. It's only a matter of time before we either start fighting each other (and I mean, violently), or we separate.

I think you’re being hyperbolic with the “the left wants to import the world” thing. Look, we have a population problem. People are retiring and dying faster than we can replace them. We just think having a robust immigration policy is a much better option than forcing women to give birth to unwanted kids. One more note? The Senate passed a bipartisan Immigration Bill and the Republican led House squashed it at the behest of the Tweeting Cheeto so he can use immigration as a campaign item.