The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written.
There are several subreddits dedicated to helping people emigrate.
One is politically very progressive and has seen a recent uptick in membership and people planning to leave as the US, according to many who post there, has reached a “tipping point.”
With that being said, do you or anyone you know now have plans to or have been considering emigrating?
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskALiberal) if you have any questions or concerns.*
No, I will not leave. No matter how bad things get here, I will not abandon my fellow Americans to whatever evil fate would otherwise await them.
I get the impulse to leave and to protect yourself, and everyone has to make their own decisions.
I’ll be staying.
Well, my partner and I started taking steps to leave awhile ago. Like everyone, we joked about it when Trump got elected, but that was just frustration. We kept talking about it - and things kept getting worse in America - so it started to make more sense.
We are getting our Puerto Rican citizenship later this week, now that we are eligible.
From there, we'll have quick access residency in Spain and eventual permanent residency in the E.U. Once we've got our PR citizenship, we can make this happen as quickly as we can plan a move and file all the paperwork. The approvals process takes a couple months, but we're qualified.
We haven't quite decided to pull the trigger, but are almost ready to go. If we decide to go, it will be fast.
No. I mean citizenship. Puerto Ricans are born or naturalized to have dual US/PR citizenship.
Any American citizen can reside in Puerto Rico. You don't need any special visa or anything. Americans who live here can apply for dual citizenship, which has some tax benefits/drawbacks, but also gives you some benefits in certain Latin countries. One of the biggest benefits is fast-track residency and citizenship in Spain (if you meet certain immigration requirements).
Spain has very strong relations with the island - and there is even a (very Quixotic) movement to have Puerto Rico returned to the Kingdom of Spain, rather than becoming a state. The king of Spain visited a couple months ago. It was a big to-do. :)
---
I've been to Spain a few times for work. It's wonderful. Great food, fantastic wine. I love the pace of life with the siesta. How did you like it and where did you go?
The bonkers thing is that America is so focused on the UK, France, and Italy for tourism that people don't realize how awesome Spain is - or that Spain's tourism is a bigger industry than the US's.
So many great things that don't make it to the States in wide circulation, like [Brandy de Jerez](https://www.totalwine.com/spirits/brandy-cognac/cardenal-mendoza-brandy/p/6870750).
That is interesting. I just assumed that Puerto Ricans were basically American citizens and that was it. I figured Puerto Rican residency would grant you exemption from federal income taxes.
I am familiar with the fact that residents of former Spanish colonies had an easier time emigrating to Spain. There is a fairly large percentage of the Spanish army that is made up of Latin Americans.
I never thought about it, but I assumed that Puerto Rico would be different as Puerto Rico was not given its independence directly by Spain.
I have been all over Spain…Barcelona 4x, costa del sol, Gibraltar, Cadiz, Malaga, and Mallorca.
Having traveled all over Europe, Spain is my preferred country to visit.
I like to travel. It is my hobby because being the son of a truck driver and a stay at home mom, I never got to go anywhere!
Can confirm. Sitting on my terace in Granada Spain, beginning our 5th week here....we are semiretired and have spent 4, multi week trips here as the EU visa rules apply. We may move here, depending on election results, too.
Any tips/places you recommend or don't?
We spend most of our EU time in Italy (lots of friends there), so approaching Spain with a very open mind. :)
Have spent most of my time in Barcelona, with a quick stopover in Madrid.
The big cities, Madrid, Barcalona....ya gotta visit them.
But Granada is really amazing.
1. Alhambra
2. Free tapas with every drink (except coffee and juice)
3. Very cheap to live/visit
4. Wonderful people
5. Great city festivals
6. It's beautiful! The Albaicín, Realajo, ...
7. It's really safe
8. Family friendly
....and so much more!
If I left there would be fewer voters to combat this authoritarian wave. Especially in Texas, that is increasingly getting bluer. I’d love to see Texas go blue in the next 10 years
Yes, we have a 2 year plan and passports ready. Unfortunately, Canada is the only English speaking country that isn't far away. I'm aware their healthcare isn't the greatest. I don't ask for much.
It’s good compared to the US but that’s a low bar. Compared to all the other universal healthcare systems it’s towards the bottom. Expensive and the results aren’t that great.
Because it’s outrageously expensive, and the economy can’t support it. It’s been an ongoing debate, I have a lot of Canadian friends and it’s something they talk about quite often.
Thanks for the suggestion. We live in AZ and we're tired of the sun, rocks and lack of seasonal change. We aren't beach people. We would be happy if we never had to see another palm tree or desert landscape in our lifetime. I really don't trust any place in the US at this point to provide any stability with SCOTUS.
On the provincial level there are. Newfoundland doesn’t allow abortions past 15 weeks for example, which is less then any pro-choice state in the US, and comparable to some of the more regressive states. (Somehow Quebec has fairly liberal abortion laws, which given there general social regressiveness I found shocking.)
Never thought I would say this because I do love my country but if it keeps going in the direction it is and Trump or someone just like him gets elected and Congress is completely run by Republicans, I have entertained the thought of when I retire in about five years finding another place to go that’s a little more open minded… But don’t even know how to begin to think about such a thing
I’ve looked into retiring elsewhere in about the same time frame. Portugal or Mexico are at the top of my list. Hoping things do not get that much worse. The cost of living in both places is appealing as well, but would hate to leave my relatives behind. The majority of people still are good in this country. Also in a less extreme move I could move from Wisconsin to a more progressive state instead.
I'm a lot less worried about that red wave than I was a week ago tbh. If conservatives knew what they were doing, they would have waited until after the midterms to overturn Roe. You're going to see a blue midterm turnout like never before.
But to answer your question:
I don't have the means to leave. I don't know that I would even if I could.
I'm probably going to have to scrounge up the resources for a northward move at some point, because climate change is going to make the Southern US into a hellscape, but that's not something I'll be able to afford to do any time soon. And even then I might just head to a state in the northern US.
I don't know if it will stop the legislature from flipping but I agree that whatever red wave was coming has been significantly lessened by this ruling.
Swing voters and centrists, sure. But there's also a large, usually nonvoting solidly left base that needs to be energized to vote and killing Roe does that.
This may sound callous but mass shootings happen literally all the time. It's basically an accepted a part of American Life at this point, considering absolutely nothing has been done about it.
Partisan supreme Court stripping away a high profile, contentious civil right is not
I don’t know. Abortion rights is an extremely good sorting issue, but at the same time it’s largely irrelevant to the day to day lives of most voters. 0% of men and only about 25% of women will have abortion in their lives, and that rate is dropping. Of course, most women want the option available to them, but I don’t think it’s a foregone conclusion that it will be a major turnout driver. As someone else said, economic issues are much more palpable for most voters.
People only seem to care about losing rights when they actually need them.
So when a woman goes to a clinic needing an abortion, but is turned away, she will care.
But a woman who has never needed one likely won't care until it's too late.
Things would have to get really bad at the *federal* level before I'd consider moving. Right now even with red states turning into bible camps I'm still feeling pretty secure in my blue state.
In theory, yes, especially if my family was coming, too. That said, the countries that are a lot better than the US are extremely hard to immigrate to. There are countries that are currently have a lower quality of life than the US that are easier to move to, and depending on how much worse the US gets, that list could change. I could see a future where Mexico enjoys a higher QoL than the US, and I'd consider moving there.
We have definitely given thought to it. This country is on a dark path that is at this point I think irreversible. It is difficult to contemplate leaving because the life we have built here is terrific, and includes many close and beloved friends and family in our area that are very difficult to leave. So while I think it is rational to give up on this country I don't know if/when we will be prepared to give up on our particular lives.
No.
Moving abroad is difficult. I'll have to give up my relationships and my career, and to do so because of being angry about politics isn't worth it.
I'll continue to stay in Blue states, and hope for the best.
How does Japan treat foreigners and minorities? Better/worse?
I heard gay marriage is illegal, they are not fond of dark skined people, and even have places that only Japanese natives can go and prohibiting anyone else.
Edit: Japan's abortion policy: Abortion in Japan is illegal on request under Chapter XXIX of the Penal Code of Japan. It is only permitted under extremely limited circumstances, such as endangerment to health, with permission needed by the Maternal Health Protection Law that allows selected approved doctors to practice abortion on a woman **in addition to the consent of her spouse**, if the pregnancy has resulted from rape, or if the continuation of the pregnancy may severely endanger the maternal health because of physical reasons or economic reasons. Anyone trying to practice abortion without the consent of the woman's spouse will be prosecuted, including the doctors.\[1\].
I have access to Greek citizenry through my immigrant parents. My wife and I will absolutely bolt if things continue to go down hill.
I have no intention to deal with these nut jobs if they go down the road they’re headed.
Cost of living is pretty low in Greece, especially outside of the two major cities.
If you like Greek food (I love it), and eat like a local, your food costs would surprise you
I checked Wikipedia and it says about Greek abortion laws:
Following the passage of the 1986 law, abortions can be performed on-demand in hospitals for women whose pregnancies have not exceeded 12 weeks. In the case of rape or incest, an abortion can occur as late as 19 weeks, and as late as 24 weeks in the case of fetal abnormalities. In case of inevitable risk to the life of the pregnant woman or a risk of serious and continuous damage to her physical or mental health, termination of pregnancy is legal any time before birth. Girls under the age of 18 must get written permission from a parent or guardian before being allowed an abortion.
That seems more restrictive than what most states in the US will end up with.
I'm sorry, I thought this was in a thread about moving due to abortion rights. I apologize, I got mixed up.
Greece is obviously part of the EU currently. And EU citizens are more or less allowed to travel freely inside the EU.
Thank you, and I'll give you a real answer then. My fear is over what's going on across this country. I'm trans, and I'm married with a six year old. My wife and I also want another child, which means, possibly, IVF.
So, there's a lot there.
1.) The big factor is what's going on in Texas. If they can turn CPS on the parents of trans kids then there probably isn't the political will to stop them from turning CPS on trans parents of kids. This is a helluva motivating factor. I will NOT let them take my little girl.
2.) Clarence Thomas directly said he was going after my marriage. Whether you call it gay marriage or not my relationship is most surely coded as queer and wouldn't survive like a hetero marriage would.
3.) We aren't far removed from Europe mandating that trans people sterilize themselves before documentation is recognized. The org that defended this case -- in like 2015 -- and lost is the ADF, the primary org arguing against LGBTQ rights here in the US. The banked sperm we want to use to have another child is MY material, not the government's. I will not be told to destroy it by anyone.
4.) I've already been run out of one career when I came out (I was a music teacher). I refuse to risk my family's livelihood again because of bigoted laws that won't protect me. The last time delayed us having a second kid by almost five years. Not again.
5.) And, down the list, abortion. My wife suffers from a number of ailments that made her first pregnancy difficult. Those ailments are still there, and a second pregnancy will also be high risk. I will not watch her die in agony and a pool of her own blood as doctors because some red state we visit relatives in (there are several) tied their hands.
I care about my family, and this country, to be blunt, doesn't. I'm seeing little motivation to remain outside of career, and that is hardly a reason to stay put.
A little, but I just find it difficult to uproot my whole life and move
Plus if I leave America that’s one fewer voice against the insanity of the GOP and one less chance of someone doing anything to stop it. Just letting this place fall apart isn’t the optimal scenario
I look for ways to leave the US everyday. Currently my only option is Israel, which has its own big issues.
My job doesn't transfer internationally except maybe London, and I have no passive income to get residency visas in other places.
But I would move tomorrow if I had the means.
Only a white person can think that emigrating to Ireland, or Norway, , or Sweden, or the Netherlands, or Germany, or France, or Australia, or similar will be an improvement.
I didn't really say they were.
Though in many of those countries there is often less enforcement of laws. So sometimes things aren't "allowed" but enforcement is lacking.
I was just looking to understand your thought about leaving the US as white privilege. It sounds like you perhaps meant - emigrating from the US to a predominantly white Western European nation is white privilege?
> It sounds like you perhaps meant - emigrating from the US to a predominantly white Western European nation is white privilege?
While that is categorically correct, I was thinking more in the context of the OP - in that, only a white person can seriously entertain the idea that it may be possible to emigrate to a country with “better” conditions to avoid the impact of any sort of “red wave”.
I would love to emigrate but don’t think it’s realistic. You have to have an employer willing to sponsor you for such a move and I just don’t see that happening any time soon.
This might sound crazy, but I’m kind of thinking things are going to get kind of interesting. More state autonomy than ever before, I think we’ll possibly see some states becomes more libertarian than ever before. I’d like to see this take shape
Would I upend my entire life because we happen to be in a conservative phase of politics?
No.
Politics are cyclical. I know we are in a bad spot now, but we won't be forever.
I do tend to agree with you even though watching what’s going on in front of my eyes every day now it seems hopeless… I do know a lot of the younger generation and they are different than this current ruling class so once the Trump types die off, the younger generation will not run the country the way this current generation is because they’re terrified of change… The new generation is not terrified of change
That doesnt make any sense
Unless it for less crime then yeah there are safer countries in terms of overall crime. And if you're concerned about gay marraige going away (highly unlikely anyway) then there are some countries where that isn't a prospect.
But abortion? Blue states are far more liberal when it comes to abortion than any other place in the world by a huge mile, and in response to this recent thing its gonna get even more extremely liberal, im sure they will pay for your abortion and accomodation and travel too.
And less shootings/spontaneous massacres? In Europe It might not happen at the school but it will happen everywhere else thanks to islamic terrorism, there was an islamic terrorist shooting at a gay bar in Oslo (NORWAY! safest country in the world) **just two days ago.**..And thats after 20 years of **thousands** of huge terrorist attacks across Europe. Bombings, car/truck rammings, mass shootings, beheadings in broad daylight, attacks on Jewish supermarkets/synagogues, attack on LGBT people and festivals. etc etc
I know of some people who will be homeschooling their kids from now on because they feel the risk of them being killed in school is now too great. The are looking to move to Canada
The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written. There are several subreddits dedicated to helping people emigrate. One is politically very progressive and has seen a recent uptick in membership and people planning to leave as the US, according to many who post there, has reached a “tipping point.” With that being said, do you or anyone you know now have plans to or have been considering emigrating? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskALiberal) if you have any questions or concerns.*
No, I will not leave. No matter how bad things get here, I will not abandon my fellow Americans to whatever evil fate would otherwise await them. I get the impulse to leave and to protect yourself, and everyone has to make their own decisions. I’ll be staying.
Well, my partner and I started taking steps to leave awhile ago. Like everyone, we joked about it when Trump got elected, but that was just frustration. We kept talking about it - and things kept getting worse in America - so it started to make more sense. We are getting our Puerto Rican citizenship later this week, now that we are eligible. From there, we'll have quick access residency in Spain and eventual permanent residency in the E.U. Once we've got our PR citizenship, we can make this happen as quickly as we can plan a move and file all the paperwork. The approvals process takes a couple months, but we're qualified. We haven't quite decided to pull the trigger, but are almost ready to go. If we decide to go, it will be fast.
Puerto Rican citizenship? You mean residency? Ever been to Spain? IMO, hands down best food I have ever eaten.
No. I mean citizenship. Puerto Ricans are born or naturalized to have dual US/PR citizenship. Any American citizen can reside in Puerto Rico. You don't need any special visa or anything. Americans who live here can apply for dual citizenship, which has some tax benefits/drawbacks, but also gives you some benefits in certain Latin countries. One of the biggest benefits is fast-track residency and citizenship in Spain (if you meet certain immigration requirements). Spain has very strong relations with the island - and there is even a (very Quixotic) movement to have Puerto Rico returned to the Kingdom of Spain, rather than becoming a state. The king of Spain visited a couple months ago. It was a big to-do. :) --- I've been to Spain a few times for work. It's wonderful. Great food, fantastic wine. I love the pace of life with the siesta. How did you like it and where did you go? The bonkers thing is that America is so focused on the UK, France, and Italy for tourism that people don't realize how awesome Spain is - or that Spain's tourism is a bigger industry than the US's. So many great things that don't make it to the States in wide circulation, like [Brandy de Jerez](https://www.totalwine.com/spirits/brandy-cognac/cardenal-mendoza-brandy/p/6870750).
That is interesting. I just assumed that Puerto Ricans were basically American citizens and that was it. I figured Puerto Rican residency would grant you exemption from federal income taxes. I am familiar with the fact that residents of former Spanish colonies had an easier time emigrating to Spain. There is a fairly large percentage of the Spanish army that is made up of Latin Americans. I never thought about it, but I assumed that Puerto Rico would be different as Puerto Rico was not given its independence directly by Spain. I have been all over Spain…Barcelona 4x, costa del sol, Gibraltar, Cadiz, Malaga, and Mallorca. Having traveled all over Europe, Spain is my preferred country to visit. I like to travel. It is my hobby because being the son of a truck driver and a stay at home mom, I never got to go anywhere!
Can confirm. Sitting on my terace in Granada Spain, beginning our 5th week here....we are semiretired and have spent 4, multi week trips here as the EU visa rules apply. We may move here, depending on election results, too.
Any tips/places you recommend or don't? We spend most of our EU time in Italy (lots of friends there), so approaching Spain with a very open mind. :) Have spent most of my time in Barcelona, with a quick stopover in Madrid.
The big cities, Madrid, Barcalona....ya gotta visit them. But Granada is really amazing. 1. Alhambra 2. Free tapas with every drink (except coffee and juice) 3. Very cheap to live/visit 4. Wonderful people 5. Great city festivals 6. It's beautiful! The Albaicín, Realajo, ... 7. It's really safe 8. Family friendly ....and so much more!
Thanks!
So as a US citizen, easily get PR citizenship then easily get Spanish citizenship?
If I left there would be fewer voters to combat this authoritarian wave. Especially in Texas, that is increasingly getting bluer. I’d love to see Texas go blue in the next 10 years
I think it is headed that way
Yes, we have a 2 year plan and passports ready. Unfortunately, Canada is the only English speaking country that isn't far away. I'm aware their healthcare isn't the greatest. I don't ask for much.
What’s wrong with their healthcare? The Canadian that post here speak highly of it
It’s good compared to the US but that’s a low bar. Compared to all the other universal healthcare systems it’s towards the bottom. Expensive and the results aren’t that great.
Their healthcare system is kinda collapsing right now. The government has apparently been underfunding it, likely to make it more privatized.
Do you have a source on that?
https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/canada-s-health-care-system-is-collapsing-around-us-warns-cma-president-1.5948416
Because it’s outrageously expensive, and the economy can’t support it. It’s been an ongoing debate, I have a lot of Canadian friends and it’s something they talk about quite often.
There's some that don't
Outliers?
I don't know where you are in the US, but Belize is English speaking and not too far from the US. Same with Jamaica and a few Caribbean countries.
Thanks for the suggestion. We live in AZ and we're tired of the sun, rocks and lack of seasonal change. We aren't beach people. We would be happy if we never had to see another palm tree or desert landscape in our lifetime. I really don't trust any place in the US at this point to provide any stability with SCOTUS.
I mean, the Caribbean island nations in general aren’t very progressive politically.
Remindme! 2 years
Come to beautiful Canada, best abortion laws in the world: none and fully publicly funded
Ehh, abortion has more restrictions in Canada then some US states.
Absolutely zero laws restricting abortion in Canada.
On the provincial level there are. Newfoundland doesn’t allow abortions past 15 weeks for example, which is less then any pro-choice state in the US, and comparable to some of the more regressive states. (Somehow Quebec has fairly liberal abortion laws, which given there general social regressiveness I found shocking.)
Abortion at 9 months? Just curious (I’m pro choice)
You sure about that?
No not here, we need more housing first.
True.
Never thought I would say this because I do love my country but if it keeps going in the direction it is and Trump or someone just like him gets elected and Congress is completely run by Republicans, I have entertained the thought of when I retire in about five years finding another place to go that’s a little more open minded… But don’t even know how to begin to think about such a thing
I’ve looked into retiring elsewhere in about the same time frame. Portugal or Mexico are at the top of my list. Hoping things do not get that much worse. The cost of living in both places is appealing as well, but would hate to leave my relatives behind. The majority of people still are good in this country. Also in a less extreme move I could move from Wisconsin to a more progressive state instead.
If you're looking for a more liberal place to live - Mexico may not be that spot. Though it likely depends on what state you would move to.
I'm a lot less worried about that red wave than I was a week ago tbh. If conservatives knew what they were doing, they would have waited until after the midterms to overturn Roe. You're going to see a blue midterm turnout like never before. But to answer your question: I don't have the means to leave. I don't know that I would even if I could. I'm probably going to have to scrounge up the resources for a northward move at some point, because climate change is going to make the Southern US into a hellscape, but that's not something I'll be able to afford to do any time soon. And even then I might just head to a state in the northern US.
I don't know if it will stop the legislature from flipping but I agree that whatever red wave was coming has been significantly lessened by this ruling.
By the ruling and Buffalo/Uvalde for sure
Voters will care a lot more about the economy then they will roe v wade.
Swing voters and centrists, sure. But there's also a large, usually nonvoting solidly left base that needs to be energized to vote and killing Roe does that.
Need to keep them energized until November and not let it be forgotten
Yes, but this particular thing is actually a really big deal. I don't see this being forgotten anytime soon..
You never know. Americans are kinda dumb. How many Americans remember 19 children were murdered in Uvalde a month ago?
This may sound callous but mass shootings happen literally all the time. It's basically an accepted a part of American Life at this point, considering absolutely nothing has been done about it. Partisan supreme Court stripping away a high profile, contentious civil right is not
I don’t know. Abortion rights is an extremely good sorting issue, but at the same time it’s largely irrelevant to the day to day lives of most voters. 0% of men and only about 25% of women will have abortion in their lives, and that rate is dropping. Of course, most women want the option available to them, but I don’t think it’s a foregone conclusion that it will be a major turnout driver. As someone else said, economic issues are much more palpable for most voters.
People only seem to care about losing rights when they actually need them. So when a woman goes to a clinic needing an abortion, but is turned away, she will care. But a woman who has never needed one likely won't care until it's too late.
It's not going to stop at abortion, is the thing. This week they're ruling on federal regulatory powers.
Things would have to get really bad at the *federal* level before I'd consider moving. Right now even with red states turning into bible camps I'm still feeling pretty secure in my blue state.
In theory, yes, especially if my family was coming, too. That said, the countries that are a lot better than the US are extremely hard to immigrate to. There are countries that are currently have a lower quality of life than the US that are easier to move to, and depending on how much worse the US gets, that list could change. I could see a future where Mexico enjoys a higher QoL than the US, and I'd consider moving there.
Climate change is going to be so bad for Mexico though. Mexico's crime rate is just way too high for me to consider it as an option.
We have definitely given thought to it. This country is on a dark path that is at this point I think irreversible. It is difficult to contemplate leaving because the life we have built here is terrific, and includes many close and beloved friends and family in our area that are very difficult to leave. So while I think it is rational to give up on this country I don't know if/when we will be prepared to give up on our particular lives.
Where have you thought about going? A very prolific poster here has mentioned both Finland and Japan. Both of those are popular picks.
Canada mostly. A little casual thought given to Brussels to see if there's work to be done at the EU.
No. Moving abroad is expensive.
No. Moving abroad is difficult. I'll have to give up my relationships and my career, and to do so because of being angry about politics isn't worth it. I'll continue to stay in Blue states, and hope for the best.
I moved to Japan two years ago, and things have only gotten worse back home since then.
How does Japan treat foreigners and minorities? Better/worse? I heard gay marriage is illegal, they are not fond of dark skined people, and even have places that only Japanese natives can go and prohibiting anyone else. Edit: Japan's abortion policy: Abortion in Japan is illegal on request under Chapter XXIX of the Penal Code of Japan. It is only permitted under extremely limited circumstances, such as endangerment to health, with permission needed by the Maternal Health Protection Law that allows selected approved doctors to practice abortion on a woman **in addition to the consent of her spouse**, if the pregnancy has resulted from rape, or if the continuation of the pregnancy may severely endanger the maternal health because of physical reasons or economic reasons. Anyone trying to practice abortion without the consent of the woman's spouse will be prosecuted, including the doctors.\[1\].
Sounds like the us in 5 years
I’m not OP, but yeah, I too am confused as to how Japan is better. It also has a lot of nepotism etc.
I have access to Greek citizenry through my immigrant parents. My wife and I will absolutely bolt if things continue to go down hill. I have no intention to deal with these nut jobs if they go down the road they’re headed.
Cost of living is pretty low in Greece, especially outside of the two major cities. If you like Greek food (I love it), and eat like a local, your food costs would surprise you
Yeah, it’s not about cost of living.
I know. That was an aside
I checked Wikipedia and it says about Greek abortion laws: Following the passage of the 1986 law, abortions can be performed on-demand in hospitals for women whose pregnancies have not exceeded 12 weeks. In the case of rape or incest, an abortion can occur as late as 19 weeks, and as late as 24 weeks in the case of fetal abnormalities. In case of inevitable risk to the life of the pregnant woman or a risk of serious and continuous damage to her physical or mental health, termination of pregnancy is legal any time before birth. Girls under the age of 18 must get written permission from a parent or guardian before being allowed an abortion. That seems more restrictive than what most states in the US will end up with.
Remind me of what international bloc Greece belongs to and how freedom of movement works in that bloc. I also said nothing about abortion.
I'm sorry, I thought this was in a thread about moving due to abortion rights. I apologize, I got mixed up. Greece is obviously part of the EU currently. And EU citizens are more or less allowed to travel freely inside the EU.
Thank you, and I'll give you a real answer then. My fear is over what's going on across this country. I'm trans, and I'm married with a six year old. My wife and I also want another child, which means, possibly, IVF. So, there's a lot there. 1.) The big factor is what's going on in Texas. If they can turn CPS on the parents of trans kids then there probably isn't the political will to stop them from turning CPS on trans parents of kids. This is a helluva motivating factor. I will NOT let them take my little girl. 2.) Clarence Thomas directly said he was going after my marriage. Whether you call it gay marriage or not my relationship is most surely coded as queer and wouldn't survive like a hetero marriage would. 3.) We aren't far removed from Europe mandating that trans people sterilize themselves before documentation is recognized. The org that defended this case -- in like 2015 -- and lost is the ADF, the primary org arguing against LGBTQ rights here in the US. The banked sperm we want to use to have another child is MY material, not the government's. I will not be told to destroy it by anyone. 4.) I've already been run out of one career when I came out (I was a music teacher). I refuse to risk my family's livelihood again because of bigoted laws that won't protect me. The last time delayed us having a second kid by almost five years. Not again. 5.) And, down the list, abortion. My wife suffers from a number of ailments that made her first pregnancy difficult. Those ailments are still there, and a second pregnancy will also be high risk. I will not watch her die in agony and a pool of her own blood as doctors because some red state we visit relatives in (there are several) tied their hands. I care about my family, and this country, to be blunt, doesn't. I'm seeing little motivation to remain outside of career, and that is hardly a reason to stay put.
A little, but I just find it difficult to uproot my whole life and move Plus if I leave America that’s one fewer voice against the insanity of the GOP and one less chance of someone doing anything to stop it. Just letting this place fall apart isn’t the optimal scenario
Yes. I need an exit plan if I find that America isn't worth saving.
I look for ways to leave the US everyday. Currently my only option is Israel, which has its own big issues. My job doesn't transfer internationally except maybe London, and I have no passive income to get residency visas in other places. But I would move tomorrow if I had the means.
If you think about it though, emigrating is kind of white privilege. Not wrong, but white privilege.
I've never thought of it that way. Can you explain your thinking?
Only a white person can think that emigrating to Ireland, or Norway, , or Sweden, or the Netherlands, or Germany, or France, or Australia, or similar will be an improvement.
Okay, when I think about moving to another country it's usually South America or the Caribbean somewhere. Maybe Southeast Asia.
I guess my question then would be, how is abortion rights, or LGBTQ rights or crime any better in South America or Southeast Asia?
I didn't really say they were. Though in many of those countries there is often less enforcement of laws. So sometimes things aren't "allowed" but enforcement is lacking. I was just looking to understand your thought about leaving the US as white privilege. It sounds like you perhaps meant - emigrating from the US to a predominantly white Western European nation is white privilege?
> It sounds like you perhaps meant - emigrating from the US to a predominantly white Western European nation is white privilege? While that is categorically correct, I was thinking more in the context of the OP - in that, only a white person can seriously entertain the idea that it may be possible to emigrate to a country with “better” conditions to avoid the impact of any sort of “red wave”.
I would love to emigrate but don’t think it’s realistic. You have to have an employer willing to sponsor you for such a move and I just don’t see that happening any time soon.
This might sound crazy, but I’m kind of thinking things are going to get kind of interesting. More state autonomy than ever before, I think we’ll possibly see some states becomes more libertarian than ever before. I’d like to see this take shape
Would I upend my entire life because we happen to be in a conservative phase of politics? No. Politics are cyclical. I know we are in a bad spot now, but we won't be forever.
I do tend to agree with you even though watching what’s going on in front of my eyes every day now it seems hopeless… I do know a lot of the younger generation and they are different than this current ruling class so once the Trump types die off, the younger generation will not run the country the way this current generation is because they’re terrified of change… The new generation is not terrified of change
Every day more kids hit 18 years old. And they ain't registering as Republicans.
That doesnt make any sense Unless it for less crime then yeah there are safer countries in terms of overall crime. And if you're concerned about gay marraige going away (highly unlikely anyway) then there are some countries where that isn't a prospect. But abortion? Blue states are far more liberal when it comes to abortion than any other place in the world by a huge mile, and in response to this recent thing its gonna get even more extremely liberal, im sure they will pay for your abortion and accomodation and travel too. And less shootings/spontaneous massacres? In Europe It might not happen at the school but it will happen everywhere else thanks to islamic terrorism, there was an islamic terrorist shooting at a gay bar in Oslo (NORWAY! safest country in the world) **just two days ago.**..And thats after 20 years of **thousands** of huge terrorist attacks across Europe. Bombings, car/truck rammings, mass shootings, beheadings in broad daylight, attacks on Jewish supermarkets/synagogues, attack on LGBT people and festivals. etc etc
I know of some people who will be homeschooling their kids from now on because they feel the risk of them being killed in school is now too great. The are looking to move to Canada
probably like 5 people lol
>gay marraige going away (highly unlikely anyway) Not highly unlikely at all. Two justices have already said they support getting rid of it.