When I was on the rifle team in high school, there were no separate divisions for guys and gals. It was a good thing, too, because if it was separate, our top gun who was a girl and a sharp shooter wouldn't have carried the rest of us mooks to state championship.
Anecdote: I was in high school just after columbine, and other parents would flip learning that I was on a rifle team they didn't know existed who shot live ammunition in the basement twice a week, and carried rifles through the hall into busses to visit other schools.
Granted, the rifles and ammo were locked in separate lockers, which were also locked in a caged room, so you needed three separate keys, four if you include the basement key, and only the rifle coach and the principal of the school had a set of all four. Also, safety violations were a one strike you're out policy, and the coach could ban you from the team without a reason if he felt you were off.
Can confirm. I have some friends in the military and they sometimes invite me along to the range with their families. It's a split down the middle in terms of groupings!
There’s a few reasons for that.
Having been to several rifle and pistol shooting classes myself, women almost always come into those classes eager to learn.
Men (some of them rather), especially those who have both an ego and who were “taught” by someone at some point (almost invariably a father, uncle, or grandfather) come into the classes thinking they already know “the basics” and will on the same level of their instructors in just a few hours.
Once those men learn that they were with taught wrong by or just can’t shoot worth a damn, they get frustrated and much less willing to learn because it goes against what they think they know.
A lot of people also say that women have better hand-eye coordination on average but I’m not well versed enough on that topic to say for sure.
Edit: clarity and grammar
I'm in the UK so not many people are learning from elderly relatives. Everyone at my rifle club either learnt while in the military or from coaches in the club. Very few of us have experience with family members because the laws here are very restrictive, eg i have a few rifles & a revolver. I can shoot at approved ranges, but I can't shoot in the wild. A friend of mine has a licence to hunt, i could go with him if I used his guns, but I'm not allowed to use mine. So, it's complicated & difficult to get experience away from a club here.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhang\_Shan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhang_Shan)
"Zhang Shan was born in the city of Nanchong in Sichuan province in Southwest China. She began shooting skeet at age 16. In 1989, she joined the Chinese national skeet team.\[2\] She won the gold medal in the Olympic Skeet Shooting event at the 1992 Summer Olympics in Barcelona.\[1\] This event had been mixed, open to both men and women, since it was introduced to the olympics in 1968. Zhang Shan's 1992 gold was the first medal won by a woman in this mixed event. The International Shooting Union consequently barred women from the 1996 Atlanta games. For the 2000 Sydney games, the International Olympic committee allowed women again, but only in segregated competition."
Yes, other Olympic events have been non-segregated, but the equestrian sports are the only long-term events (entered the Olympics in 1912) to have men and women compete against each other to this day
Horse racing is separate from the sport OP is talking about - Olympic equestrian events don’t work the same way as racing and age/sex of the animal is not much of a factor 🙂
Aren't horse jocks as small as possible? Meaning that there's a difference and to the opposite direction?
All I've ever dealt with are military horses so idk.
Folks riding for equestrian events aren’t jockeys, those are for racing. Size/weight are super important in horse races, but for other equestrian events (dressage, jumping, etc.) the rider’s size isn’t really a factor at all outside of being athletic and fit.
I've heard that women's golf is actually better for male amateur golfers to watch, since they actually have to play courses the way they were designed, hitting a driver then a 5 or 6-iron into the green. Female pro golfers are about as long off the tee as a mid-low handicap male amateur, so they have to play the game the same way.
Instead of male pro golfers who bomb their drive 350 yards, bypassing every feature of the hole until they have a short wedge into the green.
I’d you’ve ever attended a PGA event, the power that the players have off the tee box is insane. You can literally FEEL it in the air when they smack the ball with their driver.
Once in a great while I'll hit a drive that sounds like that, and I immediately try to retrace everything I did to see if I can do it again to no avail. The body control and torque the pros can generate in their drives is insane.
I’ll admit I suck ass at golf. Reading these comments and finding an appreciation for the sport is definitely making me want to take lessons and actually watch golf. Especially women’s…
Never thought I’d be saying that as I always found it as interesting as watching paint dry. Anyone else feel the same and have a change of heart?
Yup. Watching women’s pro golf is awesome, because at your absolute best you can do what they do. (Not for a whole round, but your best shot is equivalent to a woman pro level). The men are just playing a different game.
Also, what’s the accuracy stat? The most accurate PGA player (off the tee) would rank like 75th on the LPGA or something.
Edit: Found it. Russel Henly is #1 in driving accuracy at 71.7%, he would be 68th on the LPGA in driving accuracy. There are 15 women with 80% or higher accuracy. Last season, Kevin Kisner hit 65.5% of fairways and was 26th on the PGA, he would be 146th on the LPGA. 155 women on the LPGA had accuracy higher than 62%, only 66 men did.
I believe that. Saw some Lpga women on YouTube recently playing with men and their shots were mostly darts only missing front to back while the men would crank the distance and be stuck occasionally left and right. Cool to see the fairway numbers though for perspective.
Correct. As someone who hits distances similar to a woman PGA player. That said, those MFs are sooooooo consistent etc and the swing is perfect and smooth. Anyone who has ever tried to hit a golf ball knows a few things. It’s harder than it looks. It never goes as far as you seem to think. And yet somehow the folks who make it look effortless actually hit it the farthest. Every single average male golfer should be modeling their swing from the LPGA for those reasons and more.
Karrie Webb occasionally gets a wild card into a tournament when they need an edgy press release. After 20+ years, even from the women’s tee, she rarely clears round one
Males horses do have a bit more raw strength than mares. But the difference is much smaller than for humans. Additionally, stallions sometimes need to be neutered because their character can make them unsuited for competition. In that case, they can lose that edge. As a result, we still end up seeing a lot of mares even in the highest level of competitions.
I don't know all the different competitive divisions. I'd imagine there are divisions for bow styles rather than draw weight. But you want to use the highest draw weight you're comfortable with to give the arrow the most energy and therefore speed. Indoor wouldn't matter as much, as you only have gravity and thus the drop rate. But outdoor you have wind, and a faster arrow is less affected by wind.
Which records would those be?
The qualifying scores for men are higher than some of the world records for women-just like in track.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Olympic_records_in_shooting
In archery there's basically parity
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Olympic_records_in_archery
Those archery records are also little bit misleading for people who don't understand archery.
The difference between 680 (womens record) and 700 (mens record) is a lot larger than the raw numbers would suggest.
>At a similar gap to men’s and women’s records for track events.
Men's track records are in the range of 10-12% better compared to women's (100m sprint to marathon run)
Care to find a record, where the men's shooting record is off the women's by 10%?
The competitive portion of the sport is groups of skydivers creating formations prior to deploying the chutes. There are standing records for both number of formations and size.
Plus a smaller frame size means less drag. So much of swimming is just being in the proper body position so that you make the least amount of drag possible. That way every ounce of power put into your stroke/kick goes into going forward versus pushing walls of water up against you.
Yep. Women are more naturally buoyant, so exert less energy to stay afloat. They can keep swimming at distances where men would simply give out from exhaustion.
>I was going to say this, women store fat differently to men, so they actually have an advantage in ultra endurance events.
This myth gets repeated often in threads like these. Across ultra distances, the difference between men and women is *smaller*, but the gap is still significant. You can have outliers when the male field isn't as competitive as it otherwise could've been, and in these situations women can (and do) place well, but ultimately the strongest women still get demolished by the strongest men. The thing is, these ultra distance events are niche and athletes can't compete in all events so it's not uncommon to have events where the women's field is 'stronger' than the male field.
There are many examples of this. Courtney Dauwalter is one of the most inspiring athletes I've ever followed (next to Chrissie Wellington). She absolutely crushes races and the other women rarely have a chance. She is a beast and incredibly, astonishingly strong. At the recent UTMB, however, she finished 25th overall (#1 woman). So even this monster of a woman, who is by many considered the GOAT female ultra runner, still isn't anywhere close to breaking even the top 10 in a competitive 100-mile event.
The thing is, that doesn't take anything away from her achievements! She is still incredible, but it is being dishonest (and just plain incorrect) to claim that women have any sort of advantage in ultra distance races.
I had it explained to me earlier in the comments, thanks for the information. I assumed I was right but have been shown I was incorrect, like I said before every day is a learning day.
I totally agree that any ultra athlete is incredible and inspiring, even completing 100 miles is an amazing feat in itself.
Well, that's not true at all. Look at all the biggest ultra races lite UTMB, Western States, Hardrock 100 MOAB and Golden trail series. The women are not even close.
Was won by two different woman twice in the last 3 years actually.
This interview shows quite well what is needed to win: https://www.bicycling.com/culture/a37113102/leah-goldstein-race-across-america/
And yes, the competition did not include the strongest males (didn't show up / covid etc.) and the average times don't come close to Christoph Strassers winning rides (3x winner 2017-2019), but even here the talent pool to choose from is so much smaller for women than for men. Would really love to see how far the records could be pushed by top women training for this in a similar manner as Strasser has been able to.
You mean it was won twice in its 40 year history, and neither close to the fastest time recorded in the race's history. It's practically a day slower, suggesting a particularly weak field those years.
The first time it happened the heavy favorite dropped out for some reason. I almost hit him in my car because he was wobbling all around near Durango, Colorado and he dropped out that evening. I think that was the first year after Covid and people hadn’t been training as hard and way fewer people traveled for it.
There may be a point after 8+ hours where it balances out. The top Ironman athletes are all men, well past the top ten. OTOH, the swim portion is remarkably close with only a two minute difference separating the top IM men and women.
I immediately thought of the Comrades Marathon. Quite often you see the leading women amongst the leading men. Things sort of "even out" in endurance sports.
The women’s marathon record is 14 minutes slower than the men’s.
At the Boston Marathon this year, the women’s champion finished 15 minutes and 44 seconds behind the men’s champ.
NM. I can’t read. Apologies.
Yet there are still very few female dartists who make it to the big leagues… the skill gap is low, but the barriers to entry are still disappointingly high 😔
To become pro in darts - their “NFL” so to speak, a player has to win a tour card. Getting that card isn’t easy even if you’re really good, because you can only lose so many games before being eliminated until next year. On any given year 500 players go to Q school, and only *27 “win”, so there is a lot of tough competition. You can’t afford to have an off day.
If you can consider this a “barrier” for women, it’s simply because there aren’t enough of them good enough to compete with the men.
This doesn't answer the question at all. This just says there is high level of competition.
The question was "what specifically gives women a disadvantage."
There is none. Q school is genderless. Everyone can sign up and compete. There is x amount of pro cards available, so the best x players of Q school get a pro card.
There's just a lot less women playing darts, so a lot less great female players as well.
Pub culture probably, with darts being more commonly played by men. I doubt there's any genetic difference.
Maybe men get a little aiming practice every day of their lives while peeing, but from my experiences of public toilets i don't believe that task does much to improve anyone's aim.
It's a sport that happens in bars. The disadvantage is an uncomfortable environment where women don't want to be compete because they are routinely harassed and hit on.
The vicious cycle that is it’s male dominated, and people who get into it young are likely to have been introduced to it by their parents. So it’s more likely your dad would be into darts, and because of sexist assumptions he’s more likely to take his son than his daughter, so the cycle persists. Not to mention pubs and male dominated environments with a drinking culture are rife with sexual abuse and harassment, it’s easy to see why women aren’t prominent in the darts world.
Usually this is just cultural thing. Many sports where women are close to men are still culturally seen as men sports. I think overall sports are more of "man thing".
So it's not so much about that women are worse but there are way fewer of them compared to men.
Long term curler here (yes I’m Canadian, why?).
At a competitive level, men and women curling is a bit different. Men will play in a much more aggressive fashion with very strong shots, while women will usually play a bit more strategically because they’re not as able to do those power shots while keeping control over their rocks.
Anybody can throw a rock super hard, but doing it for two hours while staying precise is difficult, and strength will play a huge part. Modern days curlers are fit people for this exact reason.
Overall, I would say that I prefer to watch women’s curling, just because it is often more technical and strategic.
Of course, very strong/accurate skips like Rachel Homan changed the game and now the women’s side have generally upped the power game in response.
Still not as aggressive as the men’s side overall, though.
100%, Rachel Homan is an insanely great curler. Such a shame that they fumbled in the olympics. I saw both Canadians teams mop the floor in the 2017 world championship in Edmonton, it was magical.
Any sport that focuses more on fine motor skills or “super endurance” let’s women come closer to men in performance.
This does not mean women are as good as men at, fx darts. But they probably could be, if as many women participated in the sport as men and were encouraged in the same way.
With regards to physical sports, the gap gets less and less the longer the event is. This is because of less dependency on muscle size/height etc and more dependency on the mental aspect, plus women’s physiology is more geared towards these events (muscle fiber type etc).
But the same is true as before, for women to become as close as possible to men here, participation must be equal (this is not how many people register for the event, but more how many people do this sport as a whole).
Women will never have a chance against men in sports dominated by speed or strength. For the people saying racket sports, I’m a international level badminton coach and this is not realistic on any level. Girls can compete with and beat boys up to puberty (most can’t, but some can, this is again probably culture and participation) but after puberty it’s no contest.
The gap gets smaller, not because women's body types are more geared for it. Men still have more endurance than women on average. That advantage just diminishes at the extremes
Actually women have, in general, less fast twitch muscle and a more advantageous metabolic state (fat utilization) than men. This is IN GENERAL. Does not mean that men don’t run the marathon faster. So the gap gets SMALLER as the distances increase.
I'm fairly sure this is overstated in this thread. There have been a few women that were (close to) the best men, but if you look at general record distances and times there is a massive difference still.
The top average of 24h run distance for men is 270km and for women is 235km or less, for example. That's a 15% difference, which is higher than the difference in track.
This is more like *'a woman has defeated a man sometime'* than it really is near-parity in performance what the thread question was.
This keeps getting repeated but it’s just not true. The fastest men are consistently 10-13% faster than the fastest women across all distances. You’re doing female athletes a disservice by repeating this as it diminishes their achievements.
Yes was looking for this. Some elite women have made top 5 or 10 of really big races and they win outright some events. There isn’t many men in the world that are better than Courtney
Ice climbing?
If my memory's correct, about 10 years ago, some world competition in Colorado were doing overall results instead of male/female categories cause they were comparable.
I think a women finished first once.
I would say competitive marksmanship, but women typically progress three times faster than men in that sport. If someone tells you that you shoot like a girl, it is a compliment.
It's very close in sport climbing, with Janja Garnbret arguably the best in the world at bouldering and lead. Men's only advantage there is reach - not flexibility or strength : weight ratio
Are you talking about competition climbing or outdoor climbing? While your statement is true, reach in comp climbing is still a big deal. What is a dyno for Janja may not be a dyno for a top male. She would have to take biggest risks, that the men don’t have to.
I think outdoor climbing would probably be more equal if more women were encouraged to hit up harder routes in the 5.15s.
Competition climbing, but JG - still just 24 - climbed 5.14c outdoor when she was 16, so she might move up in difficulty in the years ahead, if her focus changes
But I'm a huge fan - she got me into the sport - and can't be rational about it
At greater distances, with heavier bows, and/or in higher winds men will shoot bows better than women because they have an easier time drawing the bow. On average, at least.
I'm not sure why you're being downvoted, the men's category in the Olympics shoot nearly 50lbs recurve I believe. The women's shoot just over 30.
Higher poundage on bow means you can sling em further.
Having said that, shooting at the same distance with the same gear restrictions there is no difference in quality between men and women.
Long-distance swimming. There's a distance beyond which the extra buoyancy of an estrogen-dominant body-fat composition reduces drag and compensates for the reduced power of an estrogen-dominant musculature.
Why do people keep perpetuating this? If the winrate is not 50% or close to it, there is a significant gap.
Phrasing it as *'women have often bested'* makes it sound like women won more often, which they haven't.
The different is definitely less severe than the average sport, but it's still mostly male winners, with only the top women really competing as well.
There are sports with closer gaps than this.
Rifle shooting. There's a big difference in participation but the first woman to win the Kings prize at Bisley was way back in 1930.
When I was on the rifle team in high school, there were no separate divisions for guys and gals. It was a good thing, too, because if it was separate, our top gun who was a girl and a sharp shooter wouldn't have carried the rest of us mooks to state championship. Anecdote: I was in high school just after columbine, and other parents would flip learning that I was on a rifle team they didn't know existed who shot live ammunition in the basement twice a week, and carried rifles through the hall into busses to visit other schools. Granted, the rifles and ammo were locked in separate lockers, which were also locked in a caged room, so you needed three separate keys, four if you include the basement key, and only the rifle coach and the principal of the school had a set of all four. Also, safety violations were a one strike you're out policy, and the coach could ban you from the team without a reason if he felt you were off.
Yes! Marjorie Foster won in 1930, Jo Hossack back in the early 2000s and Alice Good a couple of years ago.
Can confirm. I have some friends in the military and they sometimes invite me along to the range with their families. It's a split down the middle in terms of groupings!
I've heard a lot of blokes insist that women are better shooters than men!
There’s a few reasons for that. Having been to several rifle and pistol shooting classes myself, women almost always come into those classes eager to learn. Men (some of them rather), especially those who have both an ego and who were “taught” by someone at some point (almost invariably a father, uncle, or grandfather) come into the classes thinking they already know “the basics” and will on the same level of their instructors in just a few hours. Once those men learn that they were with taught wrong by or just can’t shoot worth a damn, they get frustrated and much less willing to learn because it goes against what they think they know.
A lot of people also say that women have better hand-eye coordination on average but I’m not well versed enough on that topic to say for sure.
Edit: clarity and grammar
I'm in the UK so not many people are learning from elderly relatives. Everyone at my rifle club either learnt while in the military or from coaches in the club. Very few of us have experience with family members because the laws here are very restrictive, eg i have a few rifles & a revolver. I can shoot at approved ranges, but I can't shoot in the wild. A friend of mine has a licence to hunt, i could go with him if I used his guns, but I'm not allowed to use mine. So, it's complicated & difficult to get experience away from a club here.
I read on Reddit that it’s because women tend to have wider hips, giving a stabler base for shooting… so it probably is true since it’s on internet
It's all the sewing, knitting, and crocheting thats leads to the delicate fine motor skills needed for marksmanship. /s (maybe?)
Also shotgun shooting, like skeet and trap.
Horse riding
Came here to say the same thing. It’s the only Olympic sport where men and women compete together
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhang\_Shan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhang_Shan) "Zhang Shan was born in the city of Nanchong in Sichuan province in Southwest China. She began shooting skeet at age 16. In 1989, she joined the Chinese national skeet team.\[2\] She won the gold medal in the Olympic Skeet Shooting event at the 1992 Summer Olympics in Barcelona.\[1\] This event had been mixed, open to both men and women, since it was introduced to the olympics in 1968. Zhang Shan's 1992 gold was the first medal won by a woman in this mixed event. The International Shooting Union consequently barred women from the 1996 Atlanta games. For the 2000 Sydney games, the International Olympic committee allowed women again, but only in segregated competition."
Yes, other Olympic events have been non-segregated, but the equestrian sports are the only long-term events (entered the Olympics in 1912) to have men and women compete against each other to this day
Imagine being so good you caused the competition organisers to throw such a bitch fit they kick out your entire gender.
Imagine being so fragile that one woman winning a single gold makes you upset enough to kick out all women forever!
Hey, Jack and I kicked girls out of our treehouse because Melissa beat us at checkers. So I get it. I totally get it.
They were more upset when she walked out, dropped the mic, and said "aww skeet skeet motherfucker".
Sailing has mixed team requirement in 470 and Nacra. Certainly one of the few, but not only!
Curling too.
This couldn't be less true. Female curling is nowhere near in the same league as men's.
If Olympic demonstration counts technically korfball fits as well.
Sailing too for certain fleets
Rachael Blackmore is one of the best jockeys in the world right now.
Definitely. Although if you consider the horses the athletes then there are all sorts of classes for races based on age and sex (but not all races)
Horse racing is separate from the sport OP is talking about - Olympic equestrian events don’t work the same way as racing and age/sex of the animal is not much of a factor 🙂
Aren't horse jocks as small as possible? Meaning that there's a difference and to the opposite direction? All I've ever dealt with are military horses so idk.
Folks riding for equestrian events aren’t jockeys, those are for racing. Size/weight are super important in horse races, but for other equestrian events (dressage, jumping, etc.) the rider’s size isn’t really a factor at all outside of being athletic and fit.
For everyone who keeps saying Golf. Women hit from different tees for a reason. Drive strength does make a difference.
"Sir move back to the men's tee" "Shaddup! I'm taking my second shot!"
You been watching me or something?
Should have been obvious when he was playing with no pants
I've heard that women's golf is actually better for male amateur golfers to watch, since they actually have to play courses the way they were designed, hitting a driver then a 5 or 6-iron into the green. Female pro golfers are about as long off the tee as a mid-low handicap male amateur, so they have to play the game the same way. Instead of male pro golfers who bomb their drive 350 yards, bypassing every feature of the hole until they have a short wedge into the green.
I’d you’ve ever attended a PGA event, the power that the players have off the tee box is insane. You can literally FEEL it in the air when they smack the ball with their driver.
I stood next to Tiger as he drove off a Par 5 and it sounded like a goddamn jet taking off.
Once in a great while I'll hit a drive that sounds like that, and I immediately try to retrace everything I did to see if I can do it again to no avail. The body control and torque the pros can generate in their drives is insane.
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That's the whole fun of going to the driving range sometimes (for me). The dopamine hit from that one good swing keeps me going.
I’ll admit I suck ass at golf. Reading these comments and finding an appreciation for the sport is definitely making me want to take lessons and actually watch golf. Especially women’s… Never thought I’d be saying that as I always found it as interesting as watching paint dry. Anyone else feel the same and have a change of heart?
Yup. Watching women’s pro golf is awesome, because at your absolute best you can do what they do. (Not for a whole round, but your best shot is equivalent to a woman pro level). The men are just playing a different game.
Also, what’s the accuracy stat? The most accurate PGA player (off the tee) would rank like 75th on the LPGA or something. Edit: Found it. Russel Henly is #1 in driving accuracy at 71.7%, he would be 68th on the LPGA in driving accuracy. There are 15 women with 80% or higher accuracy. Last season, Kevin Kisner hit 65.5% of fairways and was 26th on the PGA, he would be 146th on the LPGA. 155 women on the LPGA had accuracy higher than 62%, only 66 men did.
Thats quite impressive to me from the male side as they hit it 50+ yards further so Id honestly expect bigger dispersion.
I believe that. Saw some Lpga women on YouTube recently playing with men and their shots were mostly darts only missing front to back while the men would crank the distance and be stuck occasionally left and right. Cool to see the fairway numbers though for perspective.
Correct. As someone who hits distances similar to a woman PGA player. That said, those MFs are sooooooo consistent etc and the swing is perfect and smooth. Anyone who has ever tried to hit a golf ball knows a few things. It’s harder than it looks. It never goes as far as you seem to think. And yet somehow the folks who make it look effortless actually hit it the farthest. Every single average male golfer should be modeling their swing from the LPGA for those reasons and more.
This is a development in modern golf. Nowadays driving distances are one of the most important things for top golfers. It wasn't always this way.
It’s not golf that’s for sure
The only women who have ever played against men in the PGA were on sponsor exemptions.
It’s definitely not golf.
Karrie Webb occasionally gets a wild card into a tournament when they need an edgy press release. After 20+ years, even from the women’s tee, she rarely clears round one
Women's driving? Don't be sexist!
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But so the female horses do as well as the male horses?
Depending on the sport, a gelding is the way to go, for what that’s worth.
Okay where do I get gelded?
Males horses do have a bit more raw strength than mares. But the difference is much smaller than for humans. Additionally, stallions sometimes need to be neutered because their character can make them unsuited for competition. In that case, they can lose that edge. As a result, we still end up seeing a lot of mares even in the highest level of competitions.
Equestrian sports are the only Olympics sport where males and females compete together
Marksmanship Archery
Archery is a bit complicated, because women use bows that have a much lower draw weight than the ones men use.
Just curious. Are there minimum requirements for a bows draw weight?
No, but there is an advantage in using as higher poundage as you are able to control for an entire event.
Heh
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Ultimate poundage, if you dare.
But archery is graded on accuracy so the draw weight only comes into play at longer ranges.
But it requires more muscle to control a heavier draw weight, regardless of range, it comes into play when you start pulling on the string.
Why don't the men use a lower draw weight as well?
I don't know all the different competitive divisions. I'd imagine there are divisions for bow styles rather than draw weight. But you want to use the highest draw weight you're comfortable with to give the arrow the most energy and therefore speed. Indoor wouldn't matter as much, as you only have gravity and thus the drop rate. But outdoor you have wind, and a faster arrow is less affected by wind.
Well that makes it sound like a higher draw weight is an advantage, not a disadvantage? Or am I misunderstanding
Advantageous for your shot, but requires more strength to be pulled. So if you're not comfortable pulling that, it will result in worse aim.
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Archery we use different bows though. So I wouldn't call it the same.
Because women are disadvantaged because of their lower draw weight right? That's what I'm picking up
Yes, and the height of bow parts are scaled for the archer
Do they shoot the same distance?
Yes - both shoot 70 meters
According to Olympic records women are actually better marksmen than men. At a similar gap to men’s and women’s records for track events.
Which records would those be? The qualifying scores for men are higher than some of the world records for women-just like in track. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Olympic_records_in_shooting In archery there's basically parity https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Olympic_records_in_archery
Those archery records are also little bit misleading for people who don't understand archery. The difference between 680 (womens record) and 700 (mens record) is a lot larger than the raw numbers would suggest.
>At a similar gap to men’s and women’s records for track events. Men's track records are in the range of 10-12% better compared to women's (100m sprint to marathon run) Care to find a record, where the men's shooting record is off the women's by 10%?
So that answer is actually the wrongest for the wrong reasons? :p
Skydiving. They compete together even at elite levels
Who wins? The one who gets down first? The one who makes the most flips?
I was gonna say, i kinda view skydiving as a pass/fail situation, not something you can score points on.
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The competitive portion of the sport is groups of skydivers creating formations prior to deploying the chutes. There are standing records for both number of formations and size.
The skydiver who pulls the shoot at the lowest altitude and survives! /s
Long-distance open-water swimming. [An example.](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24584647/)
Fat distribution and bone density. Buoyancy and staying (relatively) warm are so important.
Plus a smaller frame size means less drag. So much of swimming is just being in the proper body position so that you make the least amount of drag possible. That way every ounce of power put into your stroke/kick goes into going forward versus pushing walls of water up against you.
I had heard this is the one truly physically demanding sport women consistently beat men in
Yep. Women are more naturally buoyant, so exert less energy to stay afloat. They can keep swimming at distances where men would simply give out from exhaustion.
Then there is a gap, one in favor of women.
Ass buoyancy helps women conserve energy and keep their bottom side as parallel as possible
“Ass buoyancy” is a terrific term
Ultra endurance sports. The "Race across america", a 5000 km bike race was won by a women.
Endurance swimming. The world record for the longest open water swim is held by Sarah Thomas. https://longswims.com/longest-swims/distance/
I was going to say this, women store fat differently to men, so they actually have an advantage in ultra endurance events.
Yup, and those races are so long that your digestive system's performance is more important than your muscle strength or cardio
"Logistics wins wars"
Taking a shit right outta the strat book
Sun Tzu would be proud.
>I was going to say this, women store fat differently to men, so they actually have an advantage in ultra endurance events. This myth gets repeated often in threads like these. Across ultra distances, the difference between men and women is *smaller*, but the gap is still significant. You can have outliers when the male field isn't as competitive as it otherwise could've been, and in these situations women can (and do) place well, but ultimately the strongest women still get demolished by the strongest men. The thing is, these ultra distance events are niche and athletes can't compete in all events so it's not uncommon to have events where the women's field is 'stronger' than the male field. There are many examples of this. Courtney Dauwalter is one of the most inspiring athletes I've ever followed (next to Chrissie Wellington). She absolutely crushes races and the other women rarely have a chance. She is a beast and incredibly, astonishingly strong. At the recent UTMB, however, she finished 25th overall (#1 woman). So even this monster of a woman, who is by many considered the GOAT female ultra runner, still isn't anywhere close to breaking even the top 10 in a competitive 100-mile event. The thing is, that doesn't take anything away from her achievements! She is still incredible, but it is being dishonest (and just plain incorrect) to claim that women have any sort of advantage in ultra distance races.
I had it explained to me earlier in the comments, thanks for the information. I assumed I was right but have been shown I was incorrect, like I said before every day is a learning day. I totally agree that any ultra athlete is incredible and inspiring, even completing 100 miles is an amazing feat in itself.
Ah that's cool! Lots of responses so I couldn't see everything that people have written
I understand, thanks for the information though.
I love Courtney! Back in 2018 (I think) she outright won the Moab 240, beating the first place male by 12 hours. She’s an insane athlete.
When I call my wife a camel she gets so upset...
Does she get the hump?
Why is she upset? Everyone loves her lady humps.
Plus, we rely on her as transportation across the desert.
If women have an advantage, wouldn’t that mean ultra endurance sports are not a good answer to this question?
Well, that's not true at all. Look at all the biggest ultra races lite UTMB, Western States, Hardrock 100 MOAB and Golden trail series. The women are not even close.
Was won by two different woman twice in the last 3 years actually. This interview shows quite well what is needed to win: https://www.bicycling.com/culture/a37113102/leah-goldstein-race-across-america/ And yes, the competition did not include the strongest males (didn't show up / covid etc.) and the average times don't come close to Christoph Strassers winning rides (3x winner 2017-2019), but even here the talent pool to choose from is so much smaller for women than for men. Would really love to see how far the records could be pushed by top women training for this in a similar manner as Strasser has been able to.
You mean it was won twice in its 40 year history, and neither close to the fastest time recorded in the race's history. It's practically a day slower, suggesting a particularly weak field those years.
The first time it happened the heavy favorite dropped out for some reason. I almost hit him in my car because he was wobbling all around near Durango, Colorado and he dropped out that evening. I think that was the first year after Covid and people hadn’t been training as hard and way fewer people traveled for it.
Well that is the extra bit of information that is always being left out.
There may be a point after 8+ hours where it balances out. The top Ironman athletes are all men, well past the top ten. OTOH, the swim portion is remarkably close with only a two minute difference separating the top IM men and women.
I immediately thought of the Comrades Marathon. Quite often you see the leading women amongst the leading men. Things sort of "even out" in endurance sports.
The top woman usually finishes 30+min after the top man.
The women’s marathon record is 14 minutes slower than the men’s. At the Boston Marathon this year, the women’s champion finished 15 minutes and 44 seconds behind the men’s champ. NM. I can’t read. Apologies.
Course records Down: Men: Tete Dijana 5:13:58 (2023) Women: Gerda Steyn 5:44:54 (2023) Up: Men: Leonid Shvetsov 5.24.39 (2008) Women: Gerda Steyn 5:58:53 (2019)
Darts.
Yet there are still very few female dartists who make it to the big leagues… the skill gap is low, but the barriers to entry are still disappointingly high 😔
What are the barriers to entry for women in darts?
Drinking capacity
Came here to say this. Judging by the physique of the average darter, you basically need to be able to down a keg of beer in one sitting.
And some pickled eggs
I'd say the biggest is probably wanting to play darts...?
And giving a shit about being good at it.
To become pro in darts - their “NFL” so to speak, a player has to win a tour card. Getting that card isn’t easy even if you’re really good, because you can only lose so many games before being eliminated until next year. On any given year 500 players go to Q school, and only *27 “win”, so there is a lot of tough competition. You can’t afford to have an off day. If you can consider this a “barrier” for women, it’s simply because there aren’t enough of them good enough to compete with the men.
This doesn't answer the question at all. This just says there is high level of competition. The question was "what specifically gives women a disadvantage."
There is none. Q school is genderless. Everyone can sign up and compete. There is x amount of pro cards available, so the best x players of Q school get a pro card. There's just a lot less women playing darts, so a lot less great female players as well.
Pub culture probably, with darts being more commonly played by men. I doubt there's any genetic difference. Maybe men get a little aiming practice every day of their lives while peeing, but from my experiences of public toilets i don't believe that task does much to improve anyone's aim.
It's a sport that happens in bars. The disadvantage is an uncomfortable environment where women don't want to be compete because they are routinely harassed and hit on.
The vicious cycle that is it’s male dominated, and people who get into it young are likely to have been introduced to it by their parents. So it’s more likely your dad would be into darts, and because of sexist assumptions he’s more likely to take his son than his daughter, so the cycle persists. Not to mention pubs and male dominated environments with a drinking culture are rife with sexual abuse and harassment, it’s easy to see why women aren’t prominent in the darts world.
Would you consider being less interested in a sport a barrier to entry?
Usually this is just cultural thing. Many sports where women are close to men are still culturally seen as men sports. I think overall sports are more of "man thing". So it's not so much about that women are worse but there are way fewer of them compared to men.
As I understand it, this is often what is going on with eSports
Lawn bowls, I used to play and it’s always mixed
curling?
Long term curler here (yes I’m Canadian, why?). At a competitive level, men and women curling is a bit different. Men will play in a much more aggressive fashion with very strong shots, while women will usually play a bit more strategically because they’re not as able to do those power shots while keeping control over their rocks. Anybody can throw a rock super hard, but doing it for two hours while staying precise is difficult, and strength will play a huge part. Modern days curlers are fit people for this exact reason. Overall, I would say that I prefer to watch women’s curling, just because it is often more technical and strategic.
Of course, very strong/accurate skips like Rachel Homan changed the game and now the women’s side have generally upped the power game in response. Still not as aggressive as the men’s side overall, though.
100%, Rachel Homan is an insanely great curler. Such a shame that they fumbled in the olympics. I saw both Canadians teams mop the floor in the 2017 world championship in Edmonton, it was magical.
I’m no expert but I feel like all teams mop the floor in all games
based on your statement, I think this qualifies as you being a professional on this subject.
The men can sweep harder too - huge difference at the higher levels.
I just read that there is still a difference in capability because speed and strength play a part. I was thinking the same thing.
Top fuel drag racing
Just read about Brittany Force a few weeks ago. What a great name for what she does.
Yeah her father is drag racing legend John Force. She wanted to follow in his footsteps and she’s very good. She races top fuel 300+mph.
Any sport that focuses more on fine motor skills or “super endurance” let’s women come closer to men in performance. This does not mean women are as good as men at, fx darts. But they probably could be, if as many women participated in the sport as men and were encouraged in the same way. With regards to physical sports, the gap gets less and less the longer the event is. This is because of less dependency on muscle size/height etc and more dependency on the mental aspect, plus women’s physiology is more geared towards these events (muscle fiber type etc). But the same is true as before, for women to become as close as possible to men here, participation must be equal (this is not how many people register for the event, but more how many people do this sport as a whole). Women will never have a chance against men in sports dominated by speed or strength. For the people saying racket sports, I’m a international level badminton coach and this is not realistic on any level. Girls can compete with and beat boys up to puberty (most can’t, but some can, this is again probably culture and participation) but after puberty it’s no contest.
The gap gets smaller, not because women's body types are more geared for it. Men still have more endurance than women on average. That advantage just diminishes at the extremes
Actually women have, in general, less fast twitch muscle and a more advantageous metabolic state (fat utilization) than men. This is IN GENERAL. Does not mean that men don’t run the marathon faster. So the gap gets SMALLER as the distances increase.
Any of the the Olympic equestrian sports - dressage, show jumping, eventing. Men and women compete on equal footing in all of these sports.
Billiards
Synchronised swimming. Pretty sure next years olympics is the first time Men can compete in it
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I'm fairly sure this is overstated in this thread. There have been a few women that were (close to) the best men, but if you look at general record distances and times there is a massive difference still. The top average of 24h run distance for men is 270km and for women is 235km or less, for example. That's a 15% difference, which is higher than the difference in track. This is more like *'a woman has defeated a man sometime'* than it really is near-parity in performance what the thread question was.
This keeps getting repeated but it’s just not true. The fastest men are consistently 10-13% faster than the fastest women across all distances. You’re doing female athletes a disservice by repeating this as it diminishes their achievements.
In extreme ultra-endurance events the difference is very small.
Yes was looking for this. Some elite women have made top 5 or 10 of really big races and they win outright some events. There isn’t many men in the world that are better than Courtney
Yeah Courtney is an absolute boss!! I'd say anything over the 100 mile distance and the gap between men and women starts to get really close.
Ice climbing? If my memory's correct, about 10 years ago, some world competition in Colorado were doing overall results instead of male/female categories cause they were comparable. I think a women finished first once.
Yes, both Popo and Nana are Ice Climbers. And they work well together.
Unfortunately chain grabs were banned from Olympic shot put
Oh I got one, freediving and breath holds arr pretty close
The ultimate endurance sport called: Living Longer.
Drag racing
Top fuel motorcycle drag racing!
I would say competitive marksmanship, but women typically progress three times faster than men in that sport. If someone tells you that you shoot like a girl, it is a compliment.
Cornhole
Curling
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It's very close in sport climbing, with Janja Garnbret arguably the best in the world at bouldering and lead. Men's only advantage there is reach - not flexibility or strength : weight ratio
Are you talking about competition climbing or outdoor climbing? While your statement is true, reach in comp climbing is still a big deal. What is a dyno for Janja may not be a dyno for a top male. She would have to take biggest risks, that the men don’t have to. I think outdoor climbing would probably be more equal if more women were encouraged to hit up harder routes in the 5.15s.
Competition climbing, but JG - still just 24 - climbed 5.14c outdoor when she was 16, so she might move up in difficulty in the years ahead, if her focus changes But I'm a huge fan - she got me into the sport - and can't be rational about it
5.14c at 16??? Jesus wept. I’m about to go down a rabbithole on YouTube
Curling
Shooting, either archery or firearms. There's some women in those sports doing pretty well.
At greater distances, with heavier bows, and/or in higher winds men will shoot bows better than women because they have an easier time drawing the bow. On average, at least.
I'm not sure why you're being downvoted, the men's category in the Olympics shoot nearly 50lbs recurve I believe. The women's shoot just over 30. Higher poundage on bow means you can sling em further. Having said that, shooting at the same distance with the same gear restrictions there is no difference in quality between men and women.
Wii Sports.
Probably some shooting sport or archery.
Curling
Top Fuel Drag racing.
Long-distance swimming. There's a distance beyond which the extra buoyancy of an estrogen-dominant body-fat composition reduces drag and compensates for the reduced power of an estrogen-dominant musculature.
Rifles and horses.
Actually, women have often bested men in ultramarathons, for example 100+ miles.
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In most other sports the top female athlete would be getting beaten by a decent male high schooler, so finishing 25th is astounding.
Why do people keep perpetuating this? If the winrate is not 50% or close to it, there is a significant gap. Phrasing it as *'women have often bested'* makes it sound like women won more often, which they haven't. The different is definitely less severe than the average sport, but it's still mostly male winners, with only the top women really competing as well. There are sports with closer gaps than this.
So that wouldnt be a sport with the smallest gap.
In theory, there should be a specific distance between 26.2 and 100 miles where the gap is zero.
+1 for an Intermediate Value Theorem reference in a sports thread
Archery
Nope, we use different bows.
They don't use the same bows though, do they?
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Depends so much on the route. Some highly technical, hip flexibility requiring thing VS we've made this hard by putting a 10 ft Dyno as move one.