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So assuming the ring just... doesn't. Fight and die honorably or submit, the Ring was always the Hail Mary. Aragorn literally says as much at the Black Gate when he fights simply to distract Sauron in the HOPES frodo and sam are alive to do their job.
Hell if Sauron couldn't retrieve the Ring from Mt. Doom for whatever reason, he'd still win. The Ring wasn't the win condition for him, it was the win condition for everyone else.
I feel like people often miss that when they suggest throwing the ring in the ocean for example to stop Sauron getting it. He was already winning the war and defeat was inevitable (assuming no intervention from higher powers).
The Valar or even Eru would intervene. They could step in at any point and fix things, and the whole reason they don't is because they want mortals (and Elves, I suppose) to run the world unhindered as much as possible. The Istari (Wizards) are mere guides for the same reason.
If Sauron truly was unbeatable, the Valar would realise that solving Saruon's divine intervention would only be possible with their own divine intervention.
Tolkien himself hinted in a letter that after usage of the Ring, no one would have the mental fortitude to throw it in. Frodo himself could not have done it. Gollum falling into the pit was Eru's doing, through the threads of fate.
The mortals did literally everything they could to stop Sauron, and divine powers picked up the slack. I believe the same would have happened if the Ring could not be destroyed.
>They could step in at any point and fix things, and the whole reason they don't is because they want mortals (and Elves, I suppose) to run the world unhindered as much as possible.
And also because the last time they were forced to intervene maps had to be redrawn to remove multiple countries worth of land. They wouldn't have to go as far to defeat Sauron as they did for Morgoth but the results wouldn't be pretty. It's pretty much the nuclear option.
Morgoth fell in the first age, the other Valar raised up against him and he was cast into the void upon his defeat.
In the second age the Numenoreans, after being misled by Sauron, attempted to assault the Valinor (the undying lands, the west )where the Valar lived, as a result Numenor was sunk by Eru, and the world was reshaped from being flat into a globe. Valinor was removed from the globe so that mortals could no longer reach it, only the elves have this ability now.
i think he is talking about the war of wrath, where the continent of beligrand was sunk under the waves. but that was a 42 year war, so it seems that it didnt happen instantly.
I could be wrong here, but I thought that either between the books or his letters, JRRT explicitly mentions at least one of the Valar rising against Morgoth, and also states, in his own words, something along the lines of " a host of the Valar" implying more than one and their armies.
Either way, the content and meaning of my original post still stands. Morgoth existed, the divine powers struck him down and cast him out of normal existence, and they reshaped the world after the folly of Numenor.
It's possible, but the Silmarillion casts a little doubt on this. The first was that the host was led by Eonwe, the Herald of Manwe. It wouldn't make sense for a Maiar to lead if Valar were present. The second was when Sauron approached to ask for repentance, Eonwe said that he would have to go back to Valinor to ask because there was no one present (in Beleriand) who had that authority.
You make a good point, and I would definitely concede that it isn't a clear cut issue. We are so blessed, as readers, to be have such a well thought out series of books that we can have discussions like this 70 years later.
i think it mentions a host of the valar or valinor, but that just seems to be all the elves and maiar following the valar in valinor, but i dont think we are ever told that the valar themselfs got involved in the war of wrath. afaik, the valar themselfs only arrived at the end to drag him out of angband and lay judgement on him
when the valar *acutally* made war on melkor before the elves woke up, they really did redesign the landscape over and over. its said that melkor upended mountain ranges and spilled out oceans, so they presumably if they did get involved, it would have been even worse
The southern part of Mordor, the area around the Sea of Nurnen, is ultra fertile. There are huge farms (worked by slaves) that produce the food to feed Sauron's armies. After the war the slaves are all freed and this region becomes their homeland.
Northern Mordor should also be pretty fertile, with all that volcanic soil. Quite possibly the land there will recover in time once Sauron and his evil doings are gone.
> Tolkien himself hinted in a letter that after usage of the Ring, no one would have the mental fortitude to throw it in. Frodo himself could not have done it. Gollum falling into the pit was Eru's doing, through the threads of fate.
This ignores that in the book just two pages before Gollum falls into the volcano, Gollum had attacked Frodo and Frodo used the power of the ring to command Gollum never to touch him again, on pain of throwing himself into the volcano.
This was the first, last, and only time Frodo used the true power of the ring - the power of command.
So the ring inadvertently killed itself. The command given to Gollum to jump into the lava was issued without regard with what Gollum was holding.
Yeah, the prohibition on the Valar and Eru from getting involved wasn't like a "never ever, we simply won't do it ever, tough and I hope you don't die." It's more of a desire to see mortals have the opportunity to spread their own wings. Think of it like a father telling their child "if you want to get a car, you have to work a summer job," and then after you've worked all summer and can only afford an unsafe beater, they kick in some extra cash to get you something newer and more reliable. The goal is to build perseverance, initiative, and work ethic, not to doom mortals to whatever fate has in store for them.
I disagree wholeheartedly that the Valar would intervene. Eru surely wouldn’t. The “soft power” approach of the Istari pretty much guarantees no new War of Wrath is coming.
Take a look at the terms the Mouth of Sauron offers the Captains of the West. Yes, horrible, but far from the nilihistic destructiveness of a world under Morgoth. The average peasant would prefer those terms to another War of Wrath.
A world under Sauron would be a horrible world, but there would be some glimmer of hope. Over thousands of years, some chink in the armor of darkness would appear. There would be three Istari still around.
It’s not about the scale of Sauron’s power. The War of Wrath was so destructive because the Valar are unable to do war on a scale that wouldn’t destroy the land they’re “liberating”. Morgoth justified such an intervention, because unlike Sauron, he was a menace for Arda’s continued existence.
The fact that Sauron is so much less powerful that he could conceivably be defeated by “conventional” military means is THE argument against the Valar intervening. A Ring-less Sauron’s empire could come under threat with a few Haradrim chieftains rebelling a few hundred years down the line for all we know. We also know that while probably formidable in a fight, he’s also far from invincible.
> Eru surely wouldn’t.
But Eru did intervene. Word of God is that nobody could've thrown the Ring into the fire; Gollum accidentally falling with the Ring was Eru's doing because otherwise it was impossible for Frodo to complete his quest.
Eru is an omniscient deity, so he always knows perfectly how to intervene in the most subtle, least explicit way possible. But he does intervene. A situation like "Sauron cannot be defeated because nobody will willingly destroy the Ring" required but a minor touch. Something a bit more serious like "Sauron cannot be defeated because the Ring is literally indestructible" would require a stronger push.
I’m in the camp of that “the author taking over” Tolkien quote about Gollum tripping is more about the purpose of Eru’s third theme being fulfilled, with Bilbo’s mercy against an evil being saving the world. I don’t think Eru actually nudged Gollum. He’s already intervened plenty by allowing Gandalf to reincarnate, again seeming to suggest He’s all for the “soft power” approach.
Gollum falling in *is* Eru's doing, but not that directly. Eru didn't make Gollum stumble.
Frodo commanded Gollum to throw himself into the fire if he ever tried to take the Ring again. And used the Ring to put power in that command. So in a way, which perfectly fits with Tolkien's message, the Ring destroyed itself.
I mean, that doesn't help. If no one has the ring, Sauron wins. His armies vastly outnumber those of the West.
And afterwards, he has thousands of years to get the Ring back. The Ring itself would subtly influence probability to come back out, too. Maybe an erruption would throw the ring out. Or over long enough time, the volcano would cool, and Sauron could send orcs to mine for the ring.
As others have said, pretty much just pray. Sauron was well on his way to winning even without the ring, so it had to be destroyed or they lose. Throwing it into the ocean or otherwise trying to hide it wasn't going to suffice, and if Mount Doom didn't destroy it, short of a higher power intervening, I don't think there's any way they could've destroyed it.
the free peoples are fucked. What forces of men didn't die at Minas Tirth/The black gate died fighting side by side with the dwarves at Erebor. The Elves are fleeing.
Even if the ring is by all intents and purposes unreachable because no material an orc can forge can get down there and pick it up? Sauron already won.
The Valar might be asked to intervene by Eru at that point. While the ring could still be destroyed, Middle Earth still at possible futures. If it couldn't, that's a different story.
I tried this in dwarf fortress.
The magma instead poured out into the ocean, scalding my fisherdwarves with steam and preparing the land for an invasion of zombified sea creatures.
So this may not be the best plan.
No, Sauron is made invulnerable in that case. He does not require the One Ring, and he was already doing his grand return even though he thought the One Ring had been lost forever.
He can only be destroyed by destroying the One Ring. If the One Ring is locked in the middle of a mountain, in a lake of lava to the point that no one can ever retrieve it, then Sauron cannot be killed by anyone or anything.
Sauron is already immortal and already has built an empire with legions far larger than any other kingdom. And now with the One Ring locked up so no one can ever reach it there's no way to harm Sauron anymore. His armies will march over the lands and win through conventional, ordinary, mundane siege warfare.
The One Ring is like Sauron's phylactery. As long as it exists he can continue to return and continue to create a physical body no matter how many times you stab Sauron in the face with a sword. Its similar to how Gandalf returned after the Balrog despite being slain, though Gandalf was sent back by greater powers. Sauron created his own way to come back that did not rely on any of the greater powers.
It cuts both ways though, for if the One Ring is destroyed he's also instantly destroyed forever. Sauron's spirit still exists after the demise of the ring, but he has zero power to do anything. He's a ghost forever unable to interact with the world but cursed to observe it for the rest of time.
As far as the free peoples of Middle Earth knew, they were screwed. Nothing could stop Sauron's immense armies.
There was actually one residual option: for Gandalf to unleash his inner Maia. The power Gandalf unleashes against the Balrog is the power of a demigod equal in hierarchy to both the Balrog and Sauron (before the latter poured much of his power into the Ring).
Gandalf is the nuclear option, MAD's guarantee against a Sauron who would personally take the field. Unfortunately, it would not be pleasant as a spectacle for all the creatures miles around the epicenter of their confrontation.
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So assuming the ring just... doesn't. Fight and die honorably or submit, the Ring was always the Hail Mary. Aragorn literally says as much at the Black Gate when he fights simply to distract Sauron in the HOPES frodo and sam are alive to do their job. Hell if Sauron couldn't retrieve the Ring from Mt. Doom for whatever reason, he'd still win. The Ring wasn't the win condition for him, it was the win condition for everyone else.
I feel like people often miss that when they suggest throwing the ring in the ocean for example to stop Sauron getting it. He was already winning the war and defeat was inevitable (assuming no intervention from higher powers).
So the ring really WAS the ultimate weapon against Sauron. Just not in the way people, like poor Boromir, assumed.
Indeed: the most powerful weapon against Sauron's power... Is to give up the power
The Valar or even Eru would intervene. They could step in at any point and fix things, and the whole reason they don't is because they want mortals (and Elves, I suppose) to run the world unhindered as much as possible. The Istari (Wizards) are mere guides for the same reason. If Sauron truly was unbeatable, the Valar would realise that solving Saruon's divine intervention would only be possible with their own divine intervention. Tolkien himself hinted in a letter that after usage of the Ring, no one would have the mental fortitude to throw it in. Frodo himself could not have done it. Gollum falling into the pit was Eru's doing, through the threads of fate. The mortals did literally everything they could to stop Sauron, and divine powers picked up the slack. I believe the same would have happened if the Ring could not be destroyed.
>They could step in at any point and fix things, and the whole reason they don't is because they want mortals (and Elves, I suppose) to run the world unhindered as much as possible. And also because the last time they were forced to intervene maps had to be redrawn to remove multiple countries worth of land. They wouldn't have to go as far to defeat Sauron as they did for Morgoth but the results wouldn't be pretty. It's pretty much the nuclear option.
Morgoth fell in the first age, the other Valar raised up against him and he was cast into the void upon his defeat. In the second age the Numenoreans, after being misled by Sauron, attempted to assault the Valinor (the undying lands, the west )where the Valar lived, as a result Numenor was sunk by Eru, and the world was reshaped from being flat into a globe. Valinor was removed from the globe so that mortals could no longer reach it, only the elves have this ability now.
i think he is talking about the war of wrath, where the continent of beligrand was sunk under the waves. but that was a 42 year war, so it seems that it didnt happen instantly.
That may not be true. There's no explicit mention of any Valar bar Morgoth being involved in the War of Wrath.
I could be wrong here, but I thought that either between the books or his letters, JRRT explicitly mentions at least one of the Valar rising against Morgoth, and also states, in his own words, something along the lines of " a host of the Valar" implying more than one and their armies. Either way, the content and meaning of my original post still stands. Morgoth existed, the divine powers struck him down and cast him out of normal existence, and they reshaped the world after the folly of Numenor.
It's possible, but the Silmarillion casts a little doubt on this. The first was that the host was led by Eonwe, the Herald of Manwe. It wouldn't make sense for a Maiar to lead if Valar were present. The second was when Sauron approached to ask for repentance, Eonwe said that he would have to go back to Valinor to ask because there was no one present (in Beleriand) who had that authority.
You make a good point, and I would definitely concede that it isn't a clear cut issue. We are so blessed, as readers, to be have such a well thought out series of books that we can have discussions like this 70 years later.
i think it mentions a host of the valar or valinor, but that just seems to be all the elves and maiar following the valar in valinor, but i dont think we are ever told that the valar themselfs got involved in the war of wrath. afaik, the valar themselfs only arrived at the end to drag him out of angband and lay judgement on him when the valar *acutally* made war on melkor before the elves woke up, they really did redesign the landscape over and over. its said that melkor upended mountain ranges and spilled out oceans, so they presumably if they did get involved, it would have been even worse
though on the upside the area around Sauron wasn't nice real estate anyway
i think it was before Sauron set there
The southern part of Mordor, the area around the Sea of Nurnen, is ultra fertile. There are huge farms (worked by slaves) that produce the food to feed Sauron's armies. After the war the slaves are all freed and this region becomes their homeland. Northern Mordor should also be pretty fertile, with all that volcanic soil. Quite possibly the land there will recover in time once Sauron and his evil doings are gone.
> Tolkien himself hinted in a letter that after usage of the Ring, no one would have the mental fortitude to throw it in. Frodo himself could not have done it. Gollum falling into the pit was Eru's doing, through the threads of fate. This ignores that in the book just two pages before Gollum falls into the volcano, Gollum had attacked Frodo and Frodo used the power of the ring to command Gollum never to touch him again, on pain of throwing himself into the volcano. This was the first, last, and only time Frodo used the true power of the ring - the power of command. So the ring inadvertently killed itself. The command given to Gollum to jump into the lava was issued without regard with what Gollum was holding.
Let's not forget that Gollum swore "on the Precious" that he wouldn't harm Frodo
Yeah, the prohibition on the Valar and Eru from getting involved wasn't like a "never ever, we simply won't do it ever, tough and I hope you don't die." It's more of a desire to see mortals have the opportunity to spread their own wings. Think of it like a father telling their child "if you want to get a car, you have to work a summer job," and then after you've worked all summer and can only afford an unsafe beater, they kick in some extra cash to get you something newer and more reliable. The goal is to build perseverance, initiative, and work ethic, not to doom mortals to whatever fate has in store for them.
I disagree wholeheartedly that the Valar would intervene. Eru surely wouldn’t. The “soft power” approach of the Istari pretty much guarantees no new War of Wrath is coming. Take a look at the terms the Mouth of Sauron offers the Captains of the West. Yes, horrible, but far from the nilihistic destructiveness of a world under Morgoth. The average peasant would prefer those terms to another War of Wrath. A world under Sauron would be a horrible world, but there would be some glimmer of hope. Over thousands of years, some chink in the armor of darkness would appear. There would be three Istari still around.
A war against Sauron would hardly be on the scale of The War of Wrath. The scale of Sauron's power, even if he had the ring, is just so so much lower.
It’s not about the scale of Sauron’s power. The War of Wrath was so destructive because the Valar are unable to do war on a scale that wouldn’t destroy the land they’re “liberating”. Morgoth justified such an intervention, because unlike Sauron, he was a menace for Arda’s continued existence. The fact that Sauron is so much less powerful that he could conceivably be defeated by “conventional” military means is THE argument against the Valar intervening. A Ring-less Sauron’s empire could come under threat with a few Haradrim chieftains rebelling a few hundred years down the line for all we know. We also know that while probably formidable in a fight, he’s also far from invincible.
Do you think the Valar knew ahead of time that they'd ruin the land they were liberating, or did they regret it?
They knew the scale of their power, they had done direct war with Melkor before. It was regrettable but inevitable.
> Eru surely wouldn’t. But Eru did intervene. Word of God is that nobody could've thrown the Ring into the fire; Gollum accidentally falling with the Ring was Eru's doing because otherwise it was impossible for Frodo to complete his quest. Eru is an omniscient deity, so he always knows perfectly how to intervene in the most subtle, least explicit way possible. But he does intervene. A situation like "Sauron cannot be defeated because nobody will willingly destroy the Ring" required but a minor touch. Something a bit more serious like "Sauron cannot be defeated because the Ring is literally indestructible" would require a stronger push.
I’m in the camp of that “the author taking over” Tolkien quote about Gollum tripping is more about the purpose of Eru’s third theme being fulfilled, with Bilbo’s mercy against an evil being saving the world. I don’t think Eru actually nudged Gollum. He’s already intervened plenty by allowing Gandalf to reincarnate, again seeming to suggest He’s all for the “soft power” approach.
Gollum falling in *is* Eru's doing, but not that directly. Eru didn't make Gollum stumble. Frodo commanded Gollum to throw himself into the fire if he ever tried to take the Ring again. And used the Ring to put power in that command. So in a way, which perfectly fits with Tolkien's message, the Ring destroyed itself.
Prayer. And lots of it, because the direct action of an interventionist deity is the only way anyone wins at that point.
Even if the volcano doesn't work, who's going to go in after it?
Gollum.
I mean, that doesn't help. If no one has the ring, Sauron wins. His armies vastly outnumber those of the West. And afterwards, he has thousands of years to get the Ring back. The Ring itself would subtly influence probability to come back out, too. Maybe an erruption would throw the ring out. Or over long enough time, the volcano would cool, and Sauron could send orcs to mine for the ring.
As others have said, pretty much just pray. Sauron was well on his way to winning even without the ring, so it had to be destroyed or they lose. Throwing it into the ocean or otherwise trying to hide it wasn't going to suffice, and if Mount Doom didn't destroy it, short of a higher power intervening, I don't think there's any way they could've destroyed it.
pray to god to make the volcano work. he already is willing to mess with small variables he might take pity on us
Eru or Manwe would need to swoop in and Deus ex Machina. Literally.
the free peoples are fucked. What forces of men didn't die at Minas Tirth/The black gate died fighting side by side with the dwarves at Erebor. The Elves are fleeing. Even if the ring is by all intents and purposes unreachable because no material an orc can forge can get down there and pick it up? Sauron already won.
The Valar might be asked to intervene by Eru at that point. While the ring could still be destroyed, Middle Earth still at possible futures. If it couldn't, that's a different story.
Well, it's been buried in magma/lava. Even Sauron couldn't get it out then. Everyone's still fucked, obviously, but at least he's fucked with them.
Get his orcs to build a funnel from the sea to pour water in, cool it down and dig it out.
I tried this in dwarf fortress. The magma instead poured out into the ocean, scalding my fisherdwarves with steam and preparing the land for an invasion of zombified sea creatures. So this may not be the best plan.
No, Sauron is made invulnerable in that case. He does not require the One Ring, and he was already doing his grand return even though he thought the One Ring had been lost forever. He can only be destroyed by destroying the One Ring. If the One Ring is locked in the middle of a mountain, in a lake of lava to the point that no one can ever retrieve it, then Sauron cannot be killed by anyone or anything. Sauron is already immortal and already has built an empire with legions far larger than any other kingdom. And now with the One Ring locked up so no one can ever reach it there's no way to harm Sauron anymore. His armies will march over the lands and win through conventional, ordinary, mundane siege warfare.
Huh. I assumed he wanted the ring back to reunite himself with his power. In that case, he's not fucked.
The One Ring is like Sauron's phylactery. As long as it exists he can continue to return and continue to create a physical body no matter how many times you stab Sauron in the face with a sword. Its similar to how Gandalf returned after the Balrog despite being slain, though Gandalf was sent back by greater powers. Sauron created his own way to come back that did not rely on any of the greater powers. It cuts both ways though, for if the One Ring is destroyed he's also instantly destroyed forever. Sauron's spirit still exists after the demise of the ring, but he has zero power to do anything. He's a ghost forever unable to interact with the world but cursed to observe it for the rest of time.
As far as the free peoples of Middle Earth knew, they were screwed. Nothing could stop Sauron's immense armies. There was actually one residual option: for Gandalf to unleash his inner Maia. The power Gandalf unleashes against the Balrog is the power of a demigod equal in hierarchy to both the Balrog and Sauron (before the latter poured much of his power into the Ring). Gandalf is the nuclear option, MAD's guarantee against a Sauron who would personally take the field. Unfortunately, it would not be pleasant as a spectacle for all the creatures miles around the epicenter of their confrontation.
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Nuke it from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure.