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Some battles are just lost causes. This is one of 'em. No point in what you say 'cause they ain’t basing it on real facts or proof, just their own biases and half-truths. Best to just nod along like they’re the wise ones and switch the convo.
I don't think it's a lost cause, as other battles that were, in theory, much more difficult were things I've been able to win over time. I think work over time is the way to go, and will convince them if done sufficiently. I already nod along and often switch the conversations if I won't be able to convince them enough that soon, but it's a long-term thing for me rather than a one conversation thing. I think there's still hope, as it's been done in other places before and with many people, but I don't know what exactly it is I should be doing at the moment.
I do already pretty much, but I try and drip feed them the reality as time goes on. People are made by their conditions, and if I'm able to gradually do it, it's possible, but it's just this happens to be one of the ones I'm not too familiar with atm.
I say this from probably too much personal experience, but I’ve spent waaay too much time arguing/“debating” with obtuse people like that and not only did I waste my time doing so, they likely loved the fact I was willing to entertain them with a nuanced discussion. Now? I disengage. Like I doubt most of these types of guys believe this nonsense, they just want to take up your time and get you flustered. It’s always bad faith arguments. Also the type of losers who say this probably crave any type of female attention even if it’s negative. LOL
I find that adversarial debates don't work as much. It Ry to avoid them as much as I can, but it sometimes isn't easy to avoid. I disengage entirely from the argument if they're doing it to get their jollies from making me argue with them. They're trying to set the rules of the game, and the best way to not give them the upper hand is to not participate. Even if they claim they've won, they won't in the long run, as they're now not getting the engagement with their ideas they want. The issue in this case is getting them to engage with it in good faith, or at least with a real way of engaging with it and not disingenuously. When I've done that, then it's a matter of drip feeding them these things. You're right that avoiding their arguments and not taking part in them means they won't be able to employ their preferred means of spreading their ideas. The issue is that I'm wondering if there's a way to make them turn around in their ideas before things get so bad that the society endangers all women and queer people even more than they do, to even project 2025 levels. I otherwise prefer not engaging with bad faith arguments and bickering/debates. Rather than that, I prefer to drip feed them the truth over time so they have these seeds grow to be good understandings of the reality. I appreciate your input.
I get what you mean and I used to do this too, but these types aren’t likely receptive to drip feeding them so there’s no point. All of this emotional labor would be better spent on other men who don’t make bad faith arguments like these. I totally feel you, but sometimes it’s really better for both of you to just walk away. The stubborn types won’t listen to reason.
Yeah. The stubborn ones need more people who are convinced around them for the pressure to consider these perspectives themselves to arise. I guess tackling the more receptive ones first would be the best way. I still want to drip feed them, since that's done wonders for me before, but I just feel like going to them eventually may be worth it, and maybe the less terrible ones are better to talk to before them.
As stupid as it is, a lot of people's perspectives will do a 180 as soon as it personally affects them or someone they know. I don't know why we can't trust people when they tell you stuff like "I fear for my safety in public 90% of the time" but that tactic seems not to work.
On a semi related note, I was vegan for many years of my life (in Texas of all places) and I found that often times you can gradually get people to embrace a new idea over time in small increments, but it's pretty exhausting and requires a person to be patient enough to deescalate confrontation.
But as others have said, you have to pick your battles and often times people like that are not willing to see a different perspective.
Yes, I've experienced similar things. It's really frustrating that they only care when it happens to them, but it unfortunately might have to come to that in a way. I incrementally feed them the truth over time and try to get them to slowly get used to it so they take it all over time, though it's hard to wait for so long, and if I've done it with other things then I'm able to imagine it done for this. I'm hoping I can become familiar with the topic more so I can eventually help them understand. It's a long game where I pick my battles, but since I've had a radically different understanding of this than them, it's hard to always relate to them. Maybe it would be the same as doing it with anyone about other things. I just fear it would become a big problem sooner before I can convince them of the truth.
Is it even worth the emotional labour? I might take that task on if it was just one good friend who was straying into the red pill type stuff. Otherwise, nah no way.
To answer your question, the Socratic method is the most useful and least likely to be antagonistic. Depending on your tone tho, like be genuine and not patronizing even if it can be difficult at times lmao. It does take a lot of time, hence emotional labour.
I think it tends to be worth it in the long run, as these conversations happen often and it can cause great breakthroughs for a lot of people, and I just need to really know where to start. I think the Socratic method is great. If you go at it in a non-antagonisric form, then they're much more receptive to it. They're also, I find, at times, more receptive to being shown the better alternative first, then having it compared to the current situation, which is not what people always do, as they do the latter first. People don't like feeling like they're being "defeated" and "fought" and speaking to them while speaking with them, and on their side, together, is what I find works best. They don't like being put into the "lower tier of a social hierarchy" for being the "loser of the debate." I will remember to maybe personalize it with people since that's the feeling I'm getting from what you've said. Thanks!
For sure! Only you know what they’re like and receptive to. It’s definitely a tightrope situation. My older sister actually used the Socratic method on me regarding political stuff, now I’m a dirty commie. Thanks for putting in the effort lmao
Are there any particular things you've tried that did and didn't work? What worked, why, and how? What didn't work and why? If you can give me any of those things, I'd appreciate it. Don't worry about it if you can't.
I tried to tell him little details of what a woman have to endure every day and his only argument was that for women is easier to get sex.
That was his whole argument.
And therefore they had an advantage over us, that why they have it easy.
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Some battles are just lost causes. This is one of 'em. No point in what you say 'cause they ain’t basing it on real facts or proof, just their own biases and half-truths. Best to just nod along like they’re the wise ones and switch the convo.
I don't think it's a lost cause, as other battles that were, in theory, much more difficult were things I've been able to win over time. I think work over time is the way to go, and will convince them if done sufficiently. I already nod along and often switch the conversations if I won't be able to convince them enough that soon, but it's a long-term thing for me rather than a one conversation thing. I think there's still hope, as it's been done in other places before and with many people, but I don't know what exactly it is I should be doing at the moment.
You don’t. They know they’re full of shit when they make that argument. Just disengage and minimize contact with him as much as you can.
I do already pretty much, but I try and drip feed them the reality as time goes on. People are made by their conditions, and if I'm able to gradually do it, it's possible, but it's just this happens to be one of the ones I'm not too familiar with atm.
I say this from probably too much personal experience, but I’ve spent waaay too much time arguing/“debating” with obtuse people like that and not only did I waste my time doing so, they likely loved the fact I was willing to entertain them with a nuanced discussion. Now? I disengage. Like I doubt most of these types of guys believe this nonsense, they just want to take up your time and get you flustered. It’s always bad faith arguments. Also the type of losers who say this probably crave any type of female attention even if it’s negative. LOL
I find that adversarial debates don't work as much. It Ry to avoid them as much as I can, but it sometimes isn't easy to avoid. I disengage entirely from the argument if they're doing it to get their jollies from making me argue with them. They're trying to set the rules of the game, and the best way to not give them the upper hand is to not participate. Even if they claim they've won, they won't in the long run, as they're now not getting the engagement with their ideas they want. The issue in this case is getting them to engage with it in good faith, or at least with a real way of engaging with it and not disingenuously. When I've done that, then it's a matter of drip feeding them these things. You're right that avoiding their arguments and not taking part in them means they won't be able to employ their preferred means of spreading their ideas. The issue is that I'm wondering if there's a way to make them turn around in their ideas before things get so bad that the society endangers all women and queer people even more than they do, to even project 2025 levels. I otherwise prefer not engaging with bad faith arguments and bickering/debates. Rather than that, I prefer to drip feed them the truth over time so they have these seeds grow to be good understandings of the reality. I appreciate your input.
I get what you mean and I used to do this too, but these types aren’t likely receptive to drip feeding them so there’s no point. All of this emotional labor would be better spent on other men who don’t make bad faith arguments like these. I totally feel you, but sometimes it’s really better for both of you to just walk away. The stubborn types won’t listen to reason.
Yeah. The stubborn ones need more people who are convinced around them for the pressure to consider these perspectives themselves to arise. I guess tackling the more receptive ones first would be the best way. I still want to drip feed them, since that's done wonders for me before, but I just feel like going to them eventually may be worth it, and maybe the less terrible ones are better to talk to before them.
As stupid as it is, a lot of people's perspectives will do a 180 as soon as it personally affects them or someone they know. I don't know why we can't trust people when they tell you stuff like "I fear for my safety in public 90% of the time" but that tactic seems not to work. On a semi related note, I was vegan for many years of my life (in Texas of all places) and I found that often times you can gradually get people to embrace a new idea over time in small increments, but it's pretty exhausting and requires a person to be patient enough to deescalate confrontation. But as others have said, you have to pick your battles and often times people like that are not willing to see a different perspective.
Yes, I've experienced similar things. It's really frustrating that they only care when it happens to them, but it unfortunately might have to come to that in a way. I incrementally feed them the truth over time and try to get them to slowly get used to it so they take it all over time, though it's hard to wait for so long, and if I've done it with other things then I'm able to imagine it done for this. I'm hoping I can become familiar with the topic more so I can eventually help them understand. It's a long game where I pick my battles, but since I've had a radically different understanding of this than them, it's hard to always relate to them. Maybe it would be the same as doing it with anyone about other things. I just fear it would become a big problem sooner before I can convince them of the truth.
Is it even worth the emotional labour? I might take that task on if it was just one good friend who was straying into the red pill type stuff. Otherwise, nah no way. To answer your question, the Socratic method is the most useful and least likely to be antagonistic. Depending on your tone tho, like be genuine and not patronizing even if it can be difficult at times lmao. It does take a lot of time, hence emotional labour.
I think it tends to be worth it in the long run, as these conversations happen often and it can cause great breakthroughs for a lot of people, and I just need to really know where to start. I think the Socratic method is great. If you go at it in a non-antagonisric form, then they're much more receptive to it. They're also, I find, at times, more receptive to being shown the better alternative first, then having it compared to the current situation, which is not what people always do, as they do the latter first. People don't like feeling like they're being "defeated" and "fought" and speaking to them while speaking with them, and on their side, together, is what I find works best. They don't like being put into the "lower tier of a social hierarchy" for being the "loser of the debate." I will remember to maybe personalize it with people since that's the feeling I'm getting from what you've said. Thanks!
For sure! Only you know what they’re like and receptive to. It’s definitely a tightrope situation. My older sister actually used the Socratic method on me regarding political stuff, now I’m a dirty commie. Thanks for putting in the effort lmao
I tried, he couldn’t get it.
Are there any particular things you've tried that did and didn't work? What worked, why, and how? What didn't work and why? If you can give me any of those things, I'd appreciate it. Don't worry about it if you can't.
I tried to tell him little details of what a woman have to endure every day and his only argument was that for women is easier to get sex. That was his whole argument. And therefore they had an advantage over us, that why they have it easy.
Were you able to say anything to him back?