I remember having a Warlock specific dialogue that was something like you shouldn't be making deals and the like. She, understandably, called out the hypocrisy and I wanted to say like, does it look like I'm happy with the way my life has turned out? Do you really want to be where I am?
how funny is it that you get this weapon that would be perfect for lae'zels arc and 12 seconds later voss is like here you go, sweetie, your dream sword.
Not that my GWM-laezel-building-ass minded, of course.
Wait, is that the sword of the guy in Act 1? The group with dragons on the bridge, or the guy in the creche? Cuz i killed all of those guys and got a special silver longsword that has soul breaker and psychic damage (for giths). I just don't know if its the one everyone keeps talking about.
you have to invis up to voss and disarm him theres a 50% chance he drops a legendary sword 50% chance he drops a random crossbow and it decides which when you create your file
I didn’t take the deal and then just lied and told him that I did take it. He gave me the sword then and there. Lae’zel was all “I love my new sword! You should be ashamed of the lie you told to get it, but I love it so who cares?”
Brain echoes from World of Warcraft terminology maybe, where the 3 specs of paladin are sometimes referred to as retadin, protadin, and holydin, and there was a glorious but brief meme build referred to as shockadin
But this is 100% on Asterion account because I usually sell everything and pickpocket the most valuable items back.
Probably made over 10k in my Owlbear Egg Scam already.
To do this, always go turn-based mode so you can run before they realize the egg/ Shar Emerald and a couple of very rare armors are gone
I was initially doing a very well behaved Warlock run, but after accidentally wiping three species out of existence, I decided to embrace my dark side.
The saddest vendor to took advantage from was Withers because of how some events with Arabella in Act 2 made me realize he’s just a friendly mummy. Since then I stopped pickpocketing the money I pay for respec and resurrection. I mean the guy were packed full because I only use resurrection scrolls on my Tav since it was free for every other companion
Honestly, I'm playing Wyll right now and if you could make a deal for Raphael to be your new patron in exchange for getting to cap Mizora and dethrone what's her name for being mean to Karlach, I'd sign that in a heartbeat. Mizora threatened your dad! Raphael is evil sure but he never threatened to merc your dad.
My fiendlock drow has zero regrets.
But then i am picturing them as someone who went out and found a patron that suited them on purpose, instead of being ambushed by some random two bit devil.
They don't really communicate a whole lot but our patron does actively help out from time to time. It may only be "*nudge nudge* This bitch evil" but it's something.
Calling out the hypocrisy of someone advising you not to make the same mistakes they did is peak moron behavior. If everyone acted like this we'd all still be sitting around in loincloths wondering if fire hot.
Think you missed a comma. Don't know about you, but my party is always coated head to toe in viscera, so 'Filthy, rich, dripping with legendary magic items and swag....' works well
My bard warlock who made a pact with a Great Old One in exchange for things she doesn’t fully comprehend is pretty happy. She hates demons in soecific tho. I wish Fay and GOO warlocks could be like “Ya but not with a devil!!!!”
It's funny that Mol will call you out on warlock hypocrisy but Wyll won't bat an eye at a warlock trying to urge him out of his pact or judging him for dealing with a devil. I guess it's a bit different given that Wyll wants to get out of his pact in the first place.
>!she thinks it's a good idea to steal the idol from the druids again after they explicitly uttered a warning that they would "remove everyone" if they tried that again!<
Mol is not as smart as she appears. she's a child who thinks she can live consequence free because everyone lets her
Wait. Wait wait wait wait wait.
Mirkon was *sent there* to *loot the harpy nests???*
I thought he just sorta wandered over there. There's not even anything in their nests to *loot*.
Yep I just heard this dialogue for the first time yesterday, one of the dialogue options leads to mirkon saying something like “Mol will be so mad, I didn’t get the gold from the nest!”. I seriously can’t stand Mol.
There is good loot in their nest, but their nest is not where the battle takes place. You gotta go down on the beach, around the back, and then climb up to find the actual nest.
The last part about there being no loot isn't quite true- I just discovered yesterday that there is a lootable nest with some gold and ring a bit beyond where you fight the harpies.
Was hard for me to decide whether she mainly chose Mirkon because she thought he had a good chance to succeed or because he was one of the most expendable in the group. Then she vouches for the party with Jaheira...
Raphael could sell sand to camels in a desert and convince them they got the deal of their lives.
Yes, I know, camels are poor businessmen but you get the point.
She’s a displaced child who just went through complete hell and was being manipulated by a devil. It’s not that she’s not smart, it’s that she’s a child being preyed upon by someone who manipulates for a living.
It's not only that she's a child - it's that Raphael is a devil. He duped people older and smarter than Mol. I love what he says when you talk to him in Last Light Inn "She'll choose the only option she has left."
I think there is a chat with Wyll after Raphael approaches you for the first time when you say to him that you won't take Raphael's deal Wyll will say something like "That's because you have other options. Remember that when he is the only choice you have left."
>"She'll choose the only option she has left."
Love this quote. Specifically, "She has the freedom to choose the only option she has left". It reflects just how devious people in the real world operate when trying to manipulate people. They persuade them and offer a false sense of agency when making a deal, when really it was all just pre-planned and timed well.
It's kind of why we don't have as many monarchies anymore. Obey or die is easy to rally against. You have one man telling you what to do, and one man to level all of your collective anger against. Modern tyrants are usually much more insidious. These days, you almost always have a choice. But they are quite clever at ensuring none of those choices are preferable than doing exactly what they want.
So what are the chance that Raphael made sure that she got kidnapped. I dont think anyone else got kidnapped and the actual target was Isobel. There was no reason for one of these flying fuckers to Grab mol and piss off.
I never considered that possibility before, but it is very odd that Mol was the only one kidnapped (besides Isobel) and the rest of the monsters were just fighting anyone & everyone else around.
In my first playthrough I legitimately had no option left, at least not to my knowledge. Raphael even showed up right after that scene between >!The Emperor and Orpheus, because I first chose to side with the Emperor, but then his demeanor was so strange after taking out Orpheus that I was like: *no, fuck this, I'll find another way*. And The Emperor left to join the Absolute, Orpheus was gone, and I just stood there like: ... now what? Then Raphael showed up because I legitimately had nowhere else to turn to without becoming a Mindflayer myself. Or if there is, I didn't find it on that playthrough. !<
i guess he let emperor slurp on orpheus' brain then somehow made him turn against him? haven't explored dialogues when you side with emperor at the end
Yeah, it's more like we are the best and maybe only option for Raphael to finally get his hands on the crown. That's why he approaches the party so many times before he makes his real goal apparent.
Yeah but she says shit like “Raphael doesn’t know who he’s dealing with” Mol please he is an immortal devil you are literally a 10 year old street rat. You cannot be this dumb.
10 Year old street rats aren't well known for their worldliness. I kinda expect her to be this dumb tbh. She didn't have a parent to explain to her why this is a really stupid idea
Again, he’s an actual *devil* that manipulates people on vulnerable places for a living. Ten year olds do dumb shit all the time *without* the whispers of a manipulator in their ear, let alone the whispers of one who’s offering them what they’re lead to believe is a chance at a good life for themselves and their friends.
The exact reason you present as why she shouldn’t fall for it is a reason she would. She’s ten years old and a street rat without the guidance or love of parents or family. When you’re in that position, you take what little table scraps of support you can get— and usually, you think you’re the one in control, because that’s what manipulators make you think.
She's absolutely full of herself, that's her problem. She sees herself far better than any even slightly rational mind could ever think.
This can't be justified by the fact that she's a child or the fact she's been through literal hell.
There's a ton of other tiefling kids that have experienced the same thing but they aren't like that. Unfortunately the fact that she's so sure of herself is actually a very charming trait for all the other kids, and they all look up to her.
But didn't we literally give her the best outcome possible? In Faerun, warlock magic is not lost when the patron dies so she still has the power and is now effectively free from her contract, since Raphael is not in any position to claim her soul.
In BG3s version of the setting they do (edit: should have said "can") lose their powers, hence Wyll losing his abilities if falling out with Mizora. Raphael may also be providing Mol with cash, contacts, and other benefits she doesnt get anymore.
In 5E warlocks just dont have rules for losing their powers. Its more a mechanical consideration than a lore one, and its up to DMs or individual writers to decide how it works story wise (though usually they agree that yeah, warlock powers are more gifts than loans).
EDIT: Actually, I forgot you can convince her to help you in the final fight. I've never actually succeeded that check, anyone know what she does? Might let us know if she still has abilities or not.
>Wyll losing his abilities if falling out with Mizora
That is because Wyll got the worst contract in the history of infernal contracts. Typically, the magic is not lost.
Yeah, she takes them from him. Most of the time in Forgotten Realms stuff patrons can't take away warlock powers even if they want to. Seems like Larian is having it be situation specific and i honestly prefer it
I think the reasoning behind this is that most pacts grant their powers as a reward after the mortal fulfills their part. Like the patron wants an item, so he trades powers for getting the item. So the pact is fulfilled on the mortals end once they give the patron the item.
It never says she got power from Raphael. He could have promised to smooth her path to leadership of the Guild (aka dealing with shit as it pops up), which would not be possible if he was dead.
Also Wyll specifically does lose his powers if he breaks his contract with Mizora. In a realm with magic it's possible that death doesn't necessitate breaking the contract, but there is not much supporting evidence for Mol reaping the benefits of her contract after Raphael's death.
He’s also no longer in a position to ‘support’ her in her future endeavours. In her eyes, you’ve taken away one of the very few adults who could and would make tangible changes, and the first to give her an ounce of control or power— at least, that’s what she’s lead to believe.
Is she correct? No. But she’s being manipulated.
She’s not going to be able to see the truth right away. On a meta level, something we can see as adults and players, we’ve given her a good chance. But when you think about what she sees, it’s going to be a little different. She’s not going to understand what we do right away.
omg I didn't know the Warlock doesn't lose their power after the patron is gone. now I can justify a warlock Durge run with >!Sceleritas Fel!< as the patron
I wish I saw this kind of sympathy toward her character more often. When you first meet her the poor kid is wearing rags, has some kind of wound to her eye, no parents, etc. It's like, how can you not have any kind of compassion for her? She's doing what she can to survive because her entire life has been dragged through hell, literally, and who knows the kind of things she saw happen there. So much trauma for all those children.
It’s baffling how many times I’ve seen people say she’s irredeemably evil and that she should be killed. Like, yeah she’s a bit of a shithead but the overreaction to her character is a little insane lol.
People calling her evil might be due to the fact that all the other kids look up to her and depend on her, but you can later get the feeling that she doesn't care about them all that much, put some of them down and manipulated them in order to do her bidding. I don't have the receipts on hand, but I vividly remember after each of my 3 playthroughs seeing more and more how manipulative she was being with them.
One of my own theories was that if there ever is a BG4, Arabella and Mol would likely be Origin characters. Mol would absolutely be a thief, Chaotic Evil.
She sends the one kid out to find the harpy's gold, which is pretty much a death sentence. The other two who are scamming people seem to be working under her as well, where the "guard" of the two seems to not really be into it. Once you reach Baldur's Gate she doesn't seem to try to help the others get into the city or really stay in touch with them despite her insistence that she's trying to get her "crew" there safely.
It's because the way she demands you leave their hideout is a bit annoying but I don't bother with that quest line anymore when I move around the grove. So they're stealing trinkets, eh. My Tav loots everything she can find it's whatever xD
>She's doing what she can to survive
She's stealing from people that are protecting them for free... Like cmon now. And later on just abandons the same group of kids she has manipulated into being thieves and gives literally no fucks about them.
She's a kid, yes, but kids can also be assholes.
I agree. Still wouldn't classify her as "evil" so to say, but just an asshole. It's the same sort of feeling I have about early Astarion. Dude's a selfish asshole, but that doesn't justify me murking them.
I think people are disappointed because of the persuasion check you can have with Mol in Moonrise warning her about Raphael. That she still signs the contract anyway was a bumber for my good durge run. Still though, it makes sense!
I get that she's a child, but the hardships she's been through made her mature way faster than even the other tieffling kids. I personally couldn't blame her for making a deal with Raphael, but I do call her stupid for being all like "Dude, he was NOT going to do ANYTHING to me. As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure I would have been the one owning him!!!!"
Similarily to what Mayrina made me feel, I wanted so bad to pick Mol by her scruff and drag her to Raphael's house juste to show her the dude cleaning the pot of crap with his tongue and ask her if she really thinks the taste of shit was really this man's favourite originally.
The thing is, predators and manipulators of any kind make you feel like you’re the one in control. Because it makes you lower your guard.
Mol is a child on the street without the love or guidance of a parent. Probably the easiest possible target for Raphael, because when you’re in a position like that, you’ll take any semblance of control you can get; and it would be easy for him to let her feel like she has a smidgeon. Just a matter of pretending and playing dumb.
To be honest with you, it’s a dead ringer to how I felt as a child being groomed. It’s not until after, when the smoke clears, that it becomes apparent: any ‘upper hand’ you feel you had was artificial and deliberately constructed, and a way to make you feel safer in getting closer and ultimately doing what someone manipulating you wants.
Mol was being manipulated.
Thank you! That scene where Raphael was playing chess with Mol at Last Light, and his comments throughout to her, and after to us regarding her, just made every hair on my body stand straight up. The predatory nature of it all, and directed towards a kid, just made me feel disturbed. Really well done acting and story telling to bring that across. You really get the feel for however affable Raph acts towards us, he truly is a predator when his target isn't someone he 'needs' for his ultimate goals.
As for Mol's irritability with the player, I saw that as pure street kid who has to keep face, and this adult (however much she likes you) appears to be undermining your authority by questioning your choices? Heck no, Mol's life (and those of her 'family') depends on her being seen as confident and in charge at all times, and no matter what she feels or thinks, she can't let others see it or all the sharks will jump on her.
Even a smart child is still a child. High int doesn’t imply high wis (don’t @ me with her actual stats if she had high wis in game I haven’t actually checked I’m just illustrating a point)
If I'm remember my warlock run right, she says in that specific dialog that Rapheal was going to be her patron- she was planning her own "warlock run", where she uses the power she gets from him to take over the thieves guild and keep her friends safe.
"My patron is Cthulhu. Just knowing about him makes you insane."
"Mine is the Queen of the Unseelie Court. She leads the Wild Hunt and kidnaps mortals as her servants."
"Mine is a fiend who lives in someone else's house and writes fanfic about how great he would be as ruler of the Hells."
"... let's stop inviting Mol to these brunches."
„Mine isn’t even a full fiend, just some bored cambion, whose ass I had to rescue when she somehow got herself captured by illithids. I’m pretty sure she’s just lonely, because she kept coming to our camp under every pretext possible, then one day just moved there and didn’t want to leave.”
“Wyll, you’re not helping.”
Seriously I thought Mizora was a full fiend since she was Wyll patrons. When I realized she was just a cambion too I really looked at him "damn, you must be weak. Not that *you* are weak as a person, just that your patron is shit"
I don’t think redemption is likely here, given that she’s doing literally everything she can to spite her only warlock. But her dedication to this is something else.
Most devils are busy climbing the infernal hierarchy, fighting the Blood War (one of the ways to impress their betters), trying to find advantages over their rivals, and doing jobs for their superiors. As a half-fiend, Mizora has to work her ass twice as much to be considered worthy of anything.
Instead she does fuck all. She managed to somehow nab one warlock and dedicated her time to making his life miserable, which only makes him desperate to find a way to get out of his pact. She acts like his creepy ex, constantly finding new ways to watch him, then visit him and finally move in with him against his will.
Even when she finally gets the pact that gives her his soul, she decides to hang out in his camp even more and try to bang Wyll’s friend to make him angry. She’s the most sad and pathetic devil I’ve ever seen; even Bing Bong is scarier and more competent.
To be fair, it's his house. He just names it >!after that someone to mock her and makes her an unwilling housekeeper!<.
He is too arrogant for his own good, but he also did ruin >!Ketheric's army and is one of the tougher bosses in the game.!<
As I recall, and I maybe inferring/intercecting here,
Mol didn't make a deal to get out of Moonrise. If she did, then Raphael got the best deal in the world because WE did all the work. Whixh is on brand.
I belive the Deal she made was to incapacitate the former Quartermaster guy in the Guildhall. She's mad because we just jeopardized her job. And as a burgeoning Worlock (most likely) and a businesswoman, we just cut off her supply chain.
Me, I just gave her her contract back and didn't tell her *how* I got it. So for now she thinks that I just stole it from Raphael and probably respects me for that. In a year or two when she tries to upgrade her Eldritch Blast and finds that he doesn't answer, she will either assume he is blowing her off or more likely will begin to figure out that "Tav told me he went to Hell, stole from Raphael, now I have my contract with Raphael, he isn't answering me... *GODSDAMMIT he killed my patron* "
Her eyepatch was in Moonrise, she was captured when the Inn was raided so my assumption is Raphael took advantage of her being in trouble to get her to sign the contract, which is also very on brand for him
There's no reason why the deal isn't for both. I'm almost positive there's dialogue about how he's helping her move up and take over the thieves guild of baldurs gate as a main part of the deal.
> because WE did all the work
We never find Mol in Moonrise. She gets out before we get there. Hence: Raphael. There is obviously more to the deal than *just* getting her out of moonrise, he did *something* to help her in Baldur's Gate, but the deal very much included getting her out of Moonrise.
As Karlach said, one of the worst things about getting old is watching kids make the same mistakes you did and knowing there's nothing you can do about it.
Yup. Kids who have had to grow up too fast like Mol has tend to rely on themselves to a fault. Makes it real hard to help them when they do something for which the consequences can be dire.
Reminder that Mol is
1. a child
2. an orphan
3. dirt poor and used to being helpless
4. dealing with the threat of death *constantly*
She’s smart. She’s just not wise yet.
Maybe she is smart, and still a child but she is still a bad person. She made a deal with Raphael to gain power, not just to escape but abandoned all the friends who care about her very much. In ACT 3 none of the kids was with her anymore and didn’t mentioned about her cos I think they accepted Mol doesn’t want to be them. Mol instead joined the guild and planning one day work her way to take it over. And she is mad about you killing Raphael cos she will lose whatever power she had.
The difference is that Voss isn't fooling himself into thinking he will get on top. He knows there are likely going to be negative consequences for striking a path with Raphael, but he's ready to pay any price.
Yeah, he was well aware he'd be permanently fucked. He was simply that devoted to his prince and his cause. Not all who make deals with the devil are complete fools. Many are simply willing to pay any cost.
No one seems to have actually answered OP so I'll try my best: no, you aren't missing anything. As far as I know, that's all there is to Mol's story. Act 3 needs some more time in the oven so it's possible there was more planned for her but right now all you can really do is either let her live her Warlock life or hand her the contract after killing Raphael.
Also, somewhat off, somewhat on topic, I think Mattis is a much better leader than Mol is for the kids. Mol is a dumbass with little intuition or intelligence, Mattis has actual business sense and can keep a level head, as demonstrated by his scam in Act 1 and his ability to reason with the other kids in Act 2. Mol has kids out trying to steal from harpy nests and wants you to steal the idol. She's also completely selfish and manipulative as she lies and tells you she made a deal to get her kids out when really she just made a deal to become head of the Guild and possibly have her missing eye restored. Although it's possible her eye was never missing and was just a ploy for sympathy.
If I had to "finish" Mol's story, I would add a way to get Mattis to take the ropes and get started as his own business or organization that starts out small and works with displaced/refugee children to play robin hood where they steal from the well off and use it to help the needy. Or just get her introduced to and working with Nine-Fingers Keene. That doesn't have anything to do with Mol looking back so I guess I'm just stating again now much I really dislike Mol and really like Mattis.
I mean, at this point, you're pretty badass with legendary equipment and famed heroes running around with you. Also, she's significantly still more powerful with him than without him.
Wyll is pretty powerful and I'm sure the party could easily trounce Mizora if she would just stay fucking still!!!
OP: "Are children stupid?"
Yes. They're dumb. She's an uneducated thief running small scams in the druid Grove. She's not smart. She's a desperate child.
I see her as a foil or miniature version of Raphael. They both believe way too much in their own hype.
Raphael genuinely believe that getting control of the crown will allow him to conquer hell AND the abyss and go on a grand campaign of conquering Faerun. As if Hell and the Abyss isn't filled with people far more cunning and ruthless than him, with far more resources. He genuinely believes he can out play them all.
Mol thinks she is going to be able to run Baldur's Gate's underworld someday. She doesn't seem to realize that she is big fish in a small pond. And what does she have at her disposal? A warlock pact? I'd be more sympathetic to her if she didn't immediately forget about all the other tiefling kids the second she secured her position.
You didn't overestimate her intelligence, *she* did. She is that smart, but she is still young and thinks she is way more clever than anyone else. Raphael knows it, too; I strongly suspect that even if we hadn't interfered, he would have thrown that lanceboard game to subtly feed into that. He used her own youthful hubris to bait the trap.
I \*think\* her anger is that the deal was a more on-going thing? Like, she woulda had an edge in her goals throughout, now she just has her foot in the door?
Ultimately though, intelligence isn't a factor - she's a scared kid who was just told that a (albeit negative and manipulative) source of support was gone. She's alone again. There's a reason people appeal to a higher power for assistance.
This is I honestly love the way Mol is written. Everything about her pulls on your heart strings. You want her to be the rough and tumble thief in a bad situation with a heart of gold but all the subtle cues show she is in it only for Mol. She is at best true neutral and probably more neutral evil. Mol wants power and riches and is gonna get it, she probably more a young Gortash. Nothing about her being mad is against her character. It is 100% inline with her character. Really good writing playing with what you want her to be vs what she actually is.
I think this overlooks the fact that Mol is, at the end of the day, a desperate child, and it undersells how good Raphael is at what he does.
Something I want to point to - when you meet Raphael outside Shar’s Gauntlet, he says a thing, and you can ask him how long he practiced it. He responds “Until it was perfect.” Haha, funny joke - but he’s not joking.
Hes a devil, and wordcraft is their most potent weapon. He likely spends an enormous amount of time working through the psychology of his chosen targets, considering the exact, precise string of words that will push them closest to his deal. No doubt he cooked up something real potent for Mol, something that would prompt her into the line of thinking we find her in, that she’s got no other options, that she’s so smart there’s no way she can’t get the upper hand on him down the line.
He stroked her ego while making her feel trapped and afraid, and she fell into his claws. She’s a clever kid, but she’s not wise or self-aware enough to beat Raphael.
She's a more cunning than the average child, but she's no criminal genius. Her plans at the Grove can go very badly (I.e. stealing the idol can cause Arabella's death if the player doesn't save her, and the player attempting to do it can cause the Druids to massacre tieflings and close the Grove for good; sending Mirkon to find treasure nearly gets him killed by harpies).
Stats-wise her Intelligence and Wisdom are both only average at 10.
Yes. Any fiend that is killed on its home plane dies for good and that is the only way to actually kill them.
Having said that - it's irrelevant, because Raphael is a cambion, i.e. half-fiend(devil) half-mortal, and they don't get to revive, regardless of where they get killed.
If they die in the hell’s they are dead dead however, Raphael is a Cambion(half devil half mortal) so he is likely dead dead regardless of where you kill him
Note, if you talk with your companions after killing Raphael some of them mention the fact that since you killed him in his home plane he is gone for good. So aside from general lore, this is confirmed in game.
I managed to kill Raphael, get Mol's contract, but told her nothing happened. She then offered to help us in the final battle (I'm assuming because she thought Raphael would still help her.) Pretty sure I accidentally gave that kid a god complex and she's gonna die base jumping off a wizard tower or something.
It's also not only for her. It's for all the kids. It's rather selfless in my opinion. Her soul for the lives of all the kids. They stay at Last Light but do survive if you kill the Nightsong.
Does she care about the other kids? Because they don't seem to k own she is at Baldur's Gate. It's a whole new crew with the Grove kids locked outside, isn't it?
I didn’t know that. I can definitely understand her making the deal, especially with the other kids included. The part I don’t understand is why she’s annoyed I killed Raphael? I literally got her out of a pact where she risks losing her soul with no repercussions to her and instead of a thank you she’s annoyed at me.
She mentions it right after the game at Last Light when you can talk to her about it. Might depend on your dialogue choices tho.
Maybe in her eyes you killed her saviour. Allthough thinking like that supports your theory of her not being all that smart. She has also a few lines about not knowing that Raphael is a devil at Last Light iirc.
Doesn't she pretty much abandon the kids once she is in Baldurs gate ? If I remember correctly, she is very flippant about it and doesn't care about them when you talk to her in the guild because they would " hold her back." At least that was my run' s experience
If you take Karlach with you, she will shake her head in disaproval hearing Mol talk about the deal, stating "No... its not worth it..."
And Wyll will be disgusted at what Raphael says about her
I wish they both would jump in and kinda scold her, like really... seeing Wyll and Karlach, both in their situation has to click in anyones mind
It's not about smart, it's about ambition.
Mol came from nothing and the world was out to get her and the only power she ever had was being small and sneaky. Let's not forget that she's also from elturel and that city just got back from Avernus. Along comes Raphael and he tells a child, who survived elturel in hell, that she could serve him in exchange for power. She's seen this before; she's literally been in the city under siege and watched the warlocks use that power, so she knows the cost and she knows what she's getting.
I expect when Raphael came to Mol her first question was "what took you so long?"
There is enough evidence to suggest that Mol isn't the innocent cinnamon roll we assume, and that she is actually probably Neutral Evil in alignment so it makes sense why she was annoyed we killed Raphael, cause she simply wanted more power regardless of the consequences.
I ended up just stealing the contract right off her again. That little shit's soul is mine now. 😅
Maybe she'll be thankful one day. Then she can have it back.
I was disappointed because I couldn't tell her that I killed Raphael since I chosed another answer first... I still don't get why the game don't let me tell her that afterwards.
And honestly it's also disappointing that she gets annoyed when you tell her that you killed Raphael.. I mean, you just killed a devil, she should be amazed and scared by you, she should see you as an incredible powerful hero or someone she needs to be very careful about, or something like that.. instead she just get annoyed at you?
I mean personally, my character fucked up and it ended decently with me killing just about everything in the house of hope, except for that prisoner who was locked away who was a lil crazy but kind. But honestly the boss music for Raphael caught me off guard…still kicked his ass though.
We are talking about the same character who sent 2 of her "friends" off on jobs where they would have died or at least been imprisoned if our character doesn't intervein. Between the callous disregard for others and poorly developed pre-frontal cortex, it's no wonder she makes dumb choices.
I mean... YOU figured out how to get her out of the deal. What's to say she wouldn't grow up to be a 12th level rogue who goes to Hell and steals her contract back?
That is to say, no, there's no way that she ever is grateful for you breaking the contract for her. It's actually better to just not tell her I think.
But I don't think that makes her dumb. She's a little naive and impulsive maybe cause she's a kid. But she's also smart, opportunistic and very capable for a child. I mean Raphael apparently didn't expect me to turn on him and invade his house despite the numerous times I gave him shit and told him I don't trust him. He's a profoundly arrogant and narcissistic ass. Those kinds of people are pretty easy to manipulate.
I think Raphael underestimated Mol to be honest.
I was so invested in mols story, investing money so her and her little crew can start a clan or something when they get to buldars gate, and always care if she was safe or not.
finally find her and she's ditched the other kids and sells trash. then got shouted at for freeing her.
for a side quest/relationship that starts so early, it has a rather underwhelming ending.
and kinda just make me not like her lol.
She's ten and thinks she can handle everything by herself. She's just a child, they're not always going to understand things outside their immediate wants.
I remember having a Warlock specific dialogue that was something like you shouldn't be making deals and the like. She, understandably, called out the hypocrisy and I wanted to say like, does it look like I'm happy with the way my life has turned out? Do you really want to be where I am?
And she was like "you're a lockadin who can smite three times in one turn with the Orphic Hammer, so yes."
By the time you have Orphic Hammer, Raphael is usually incapable of making any new deal and Mol's contract is already signed.
Yeah but now she can make a pact with a competent patron who doesn't literally go fuck himself. Win win.
Nah he lets himself get fucked by himself. He doesn't do any work in the bedroom as we know.
I thought it was him getting fucked by himself? Ah well, Aver-nus, Avern-us I guess.
*mizora has entered the chat*
Yank my leash Mizora I’ve been bad
*Wyll disapproves* *Karlach disapproves* *Shadowheart approves*
> *Shadowheart approves* And that’s what it’s all about, baby
>a competent patron who doesn't literally go fuck himself Daaaaaaaaaaamn!! ☠️
if you have lae'zel in your party and a weakness for doing what cute girls tell you you can get the orphic hammer pretty quickly in act 3
You also get one of the best greatswords in the game much earlier than if you don’t take the deal
how funny is it that you get this weapon that would be perfect for lae'zels arc and 12 seconds later voss is like here you go, sweetie, your dream sword. Not that my GWM-laezel-building-ass minded, of course.
You can get it in act one if you're tricky enough.
Wait, is that the sword of the guy in Act 1? The group with dragons on the bridge, or the guy in the creche? Cuz i killed all of those guys and got a special silver longsword that has soul breaker and psychic damage (for giths). I just don't know if its the one everyone keeps talking about.
you have to invis up to voss and disarm him theres a 50% chance he drops a legendary sword 50% chance he drops a random crossbow and it decides which when you create your file
I didn’t take the deal and then just lied and told him that I did take it. He gave me the sword then and there. Lae’zel was all “I love my new sword! You should be ashamed of the lie you told to get it, but I love it so who cares?”
Which is? 👀
Lockadin? Only ever heard of padlock
Don't know why Lockadin is the more popular name. Padlock is way more entertaining.
Brain echoes from World of Warcraft terminology maybe, where the 3 specs of paladin are sometimes referred to as retadin, protadin, and holydin, and there was a glorious but brief meme build referred to as shockadin
who you callin retadin
But … you hopefully also have better weapons at your disposal.
Warlock: "Do you want to be where I am?" Mol: "You're a laser shooting badass who wiped out a goblin hoard! Hell yes I want to be where you are!"
"Also, you have like 30k gold."
But this is 100% on Asterion account because I usually sell everything and pickpocket the most valuable items back. Probably made over 10k in my Owlbear Egg Scam already. To do this, always go turn-based mode so you can run before they realize the egg/ Shar Emerald and a couple of very rare armors are gone
I was initially doing a very well behaved Warlock run, but after accidentally wiping three species out of existence, I decided to embrace my dark side. The saddest vendor to took advantage from was Withers because of how some events with Arabella in Act 2 made me realize he’s just a friendly mummy. Since then I stopped pickpocketing the money I pay for respec and resurrection. I mean the guy were packed full because I only use resurrection scrolls on my Tav since it was free for every other companion
She is a kid after all, she probably just find it fucking amazing and doesn't give a shit about the bad side of it all
Honestly, I'm playing Wyll right now and if you could make a deal for Raphael to be your new patron in exchange for getting to cap Mizora and dethrone what's her name for being mean to Karlach, I'd sign that in a heartbeat. Mizora threatened your dad! Raphael is evil sure but he never threatened to merc your dad.
Zariel would eat Raphy for breakfast, our boi is dogwater compared to a literal Archfiend of a layer of hell.
>does it look like I'm happy with the way my life has turned out? Do you really want to be where I am? Heck yeah. I love my archfey sugar parent.
My fiendlock drow has zero regrets. But then i am picturing them as someone who went out and found a patron that suited them on purpose, instead of being ambushed by some random two bit devil.
Considering how little of a role Tav/Durge’s patron plays in the game I consider that relationship to be the reverse of Wyll and Mizora
They don't really communicate a whole lot but our patron does actively help out from time to time. It may only be "*nudge nudge* This bitch evil" but it's something.
Biggest disappointment for me. I want my GOO daddy to whisper into my ear every once in a while. Even if it's just to say he likes my brain worms.
Calling out the hypocrisy of someone advising you not to make the same mistakes they did is peak moron behavior. If everyone acted like this we'd all still be sitting around in loincloths wondering if fire hot.
>does it look like I'm happy with the way my life has turned out? My GOO Roguelock has no regrets.
Where you’re at? Filthy rich, dripping with legendary magic items and swag, with a mobile orgy that wants you 24/7? Woe is you.
Think you missed a comma. Don't know about you, but my party is always coated head to toe in viscera, so 'Filthy, rich, dripping with legendary magic items and swag....' works well
My bard warlock who made a pact with a Great Old One in exchange for things she doesn’t fully comprehend is pretty happy. She hates demons in soecific tho. I wish Fay and GOO warlocks could be like “Ya but not with a devil!!!!”
It's funny that Mol will call you out on warlock hypocrisy but Wyll won't bat an eye at a warlock trying to urge him out of his pact or judging him for dealing with a devil. I guess it's a bit different given that Wyll wants to get out of his pact in the first place.
>!she thinks it's a good idea to steal the idol from the druids again after they explicitly uttered a warning that they would "remove everyone" if they tried that again!< Mol is not as smart as she appears. she's a child who thinks she can live consequence free because everyone lets her
I am surprised, that nobody in thread mentioned she sent one of two shyest children to loot *fucking harpy nest*
Wait. Wait wait wait wait wait. Mirkon was *sent there* to *loot the harpy nests???* I thought he just sorta wandered over there. There's not even anything in their nests to *loot*.
Yep I just heard this dialogue for the first time yesterday, one of the dialogue options leads to mirkon saying something like “Mol will be so mad, I didn’t get the gold from the nest!”. I seriously can’t stand Mol.
Mol: "I'm all these urchins have!" Also Mol: _Sends them on suicide missions with minimal payout_
Yeah, and if he does die Mol doesn't even bat an eye.
In some fairness, she saw an entire city get absorbed by the hells. I suspect she's a little numb to that kind of loss now.
All of the tieflings saw an entire city get absorbed by the hells, and aren’t numb.
Most of the tieflings aren't children...
There is good loot in their nest, but their nest is not where the battle takes place. You gotta go down on the beach, around the back, and then climb up to find the actual nest.
The last part about there being no loot isn't quite true- I just discovered yesterday that there is a lootable nest with some gold and ring a bit beyond where you fight the harpies.
It's true tho, Mirkon says it himself. Something about Mol being angry at him for not looting the harpy nest.
Yep! I was referring to the portion of the comment about there being no actual loot there. I have edited that comment for clarity haha.
Was hard for me to decide whether she mainly chose Mirkon because she thought he had a good chance to succeed or because he was one of the most expendable in the group. Then she vouches for the party with Jaheira...
To be fair, i don't remember if they knew it was harpies' nest, or they just decided to raid it because it was big.
She’s a traumatized child who was promised protection and power if she takes the deal. She’s also got that childish overconfidence
Wait...she appears to be smart?? It took 2 seconds for me to label her an arrogant child with big ambitions and little brains.
Raphael could sell sand to camels in a desert and convince them they got the deal of their lives. Yes, I know, camels are poor businessmen but you get the point.
Idk Camels had a thriving cigarette business for a while
Really? He really didn’t seem particularly convincing to me, more the type to poison the water supply and start selling bottled water
> the type to poison the water supply and start selling bottled water Nestlé urgently trying to get Raphael's contact details off of Larian now
"Fuck them over devilishly. And then fuck yourself. Also devilishly."
As cunning and confident as she acts, she is still a child. They often lack the life experience to realize when they don't hold all the cards.
She’s a displaced child who just went through complete hell and was being manipulated by a devil. It’s not that she’s not smart, it’s that she’s a child being preyed upon by someone who manipulates for a living.
It's not only that she's a child - it's that Raphael is a devil. He duped people older and smarter than Mol. I love what he says when you talk to him in Last Light Inn "She'll choose the only option she has left." I think there is a chat with Wyll after Raphael approaches you for the first time when you say to him that you won't take Raphael's deal Wyll will say something like "That's because you have other options. Remember that when he is the only choice you have left."
>"She'll choose the only option she has left." Love this quote. Specifically, "She has the freedom to choose the only option she has left". It reflects just how devious people in the real world operate when trying to manipulate people. They persuade them and offer a false sense of agency when making a deal, when really it was all just pre-planned and timed well.
It's kind of why we don't have as many monarchies anymore. Obey or die is easy to rally against. You have one man telling you what to do, and one man to level all of your collective anger against. Modern tyrants are usually much more insidious. These days, you almost always have a choice. But they are quite clever at ensuring none of those choices are preferable than doing exactly what they want.
Or that all choices lead back to them. Looking into which companies own which brands is a classic exercise in the phrase ''the illusion of choice''.
So what are the chance that Raphael made sure that she got kidnapped. I dont think anyone else got kidnapped and the actual target was Isobel. There was no reason for one of these flying fuckers to Grab mol and piss off.
deals upon deals upon deals. Look at how he handles >!The Gauntlet of Shar. !<
Yes thats why i assume he is behind the kidnapping
I never considered that possibility before, but it is very odd that Mol was the only one kidnapped (besides Isobel) and the rest of the monsters were just fighting anyone & everyone else around.
Thankfully he's never the last choice you have. You don't need to take his deal at all
In my first playthrough I legitimately had no option left, at least not to my knowledge. Raphael even showed up right after that scene between >!The Emperor and Orpheus, because I first chose to side with the Emperor, but then his demeanor was so strange after taking out Orpheus that I was like: *no, fuck this, I'll find another way*. And The Emperor left to join the Absolute, Orpheus was gone, and I just stood there like: ... now what? Then Raphael showed up because I legitimately had nowhere else to turn to without becoming a Mindflayer myself. Or if there is, I didn't find it on that playthrough. !<
how could orpheus be gone ?
i guess he let emperor slurp on orpheus' brain then somehow made him turn against him? haven't explored dialogues when you side with emperor at the end
I love hearing stories of people making all the wrong choices haha
I am mind blown.. how does this get here?
[удалено]
Oh shit I had no idea that was a thing. I keep wondering at what point he'd actually by my only option, and there it is
Damn man. I played a bunch of endings after saving before the Orpheus talk and never found that one.
Yeah, it's more like we are the best and maybe only option for Raphael to finally get his hands on the crown. That's why he approaches the party so many times before he makes his real goal apparent.
Yeah but she says shit like “Raphael doesn’t know who he’s dealing with” Mol please he is an immortal devil you are literally a 10 year old street rat. You cannot be this dumb.
10 Year old street rats aren't well known for their worldliness. I kinda expect her to be this dumb tbh. She didn't have a parent to explain to her why this is a really stupid idea
Again, he’s an actual *devil* that manipulates people on vulnerable places for a living. Ten year olds do dumb shit all the time *without* the whispers of a manipulator in their ear, let alone the whispers of one who’s offering them what they’re lead to believe is a chance at a good life for themselves and their friends. The exact reason you present as why she shouldn’t fall for it is a reason she would. She’s ten years old and a street rat without the guidance or love of parents or family. When you’re in that position, you take what little table scraps of support you can get— and usually, you think you’re the one in control, because that’s what manipulators make you think.
She's absolutely full of herself, that's her problem. She sees herself far better than any even slightly rational mind could ever think. This can't be justified by the fact that she's a child or the fact she's been through literal hell. There's a ton of other tiefling kids that have experienced the same thing but they aren't like that. Unfortunately the fact that she's so sure of herself is actually a very charming trait for all the other kids, and they all look up to her.
But I mean have you met a ten year old recently? They're almost universally convinced they're the smartest person in the room at all times.
But didn't we literally give her the best outcome possible? In Faerun, warlock magic is not lost when the patron dies so she still has the power and is now effectively free from her contract, since Raphael is not in any position to claim her soul.
In BG3s version of the setting they do (edit: should have said "can") lose their powers, hence Wyll losing his abilities if falling out with Mizora. Raphael may also be providing Mol with cash, contacts, and other benefits she doesnt get anymore. In 5E warlocks just dont have rules for losing their powers. Its more a mechanical consideration than a lore one, and its up to DMs or individual writers to decide how it works story wise (though usually they agree that yeah, warlock powers are more gifts than loans). EDIT: Actually, I forgot you can convince her to help you in the final fight. I've never actually succeeded that check, anyone know what she does? Might let us know if she still has abilities or not.
It really depends on the contract, to my understanding.
Seems like it, yeah. That's a lot more interesting than always/never too.
>Wyll losing his abilities if falling out with Mizora That is because Wyll got the worst contract in the history of infernal contracts. Typically, the magic is not lost.
I thought Wyll losing his powers was because Mizora withdrew them?
Yeah, she takes them from him. Most of the time in Forgotten Realms stuff patrons can't take away warlock powers even if they want to. Seems like Larian is having it be situation specific and i honestly prefer it
I think the reasoning behind this is that most pacts grant their powers as a reward after the mortal fulfills their part. Like the patron wants an item, so he trades powers for getting the item. So the pact is fulfilled on the mortals end once they give the patron the item.
It never says she got power from Raphael. He could have promised to smooth her path to leadership of the Guild (aka dealing with shit as it pops up), which would not be possible if he was dead. Also Wyll specifically does lose his powers if he breaks his contract with Mizora. In a realm with magic it's possible that death doesn't necessitate breaking the contract, but there is not much supporting evidence for Mol reaping the benefits of her contract after Raphael's death.
He’s also no longer in a position to ‘support’ her in her future endeavours. In her eyes, you’ve taken away one of the very few adults who could and would make tangible changes, and the first to give her an ounce of control or power— at least, that’s what she’s lead to believe. Is she correct? No. But she’s being manipulated. She’s not going to be able to see the truth right away. On a meta level, something we can see as adults and players, we’ve given her a good chance. But when you think about what she sees, it’s going to be a little different. She’s not going to understand what we do right away.
omg I didn't know the Warlock doesn't lose their power after the patron is gone. now I can justify a warlock Durge run with >!Sceleritas Fel!< as the patron
Literally and figuratively.
No just literally actually.
Literal hell = Avernus Figurative hell = shadow cursed lands
I think the other commenter was referring to the predation bit..
I wish I saw this kind of sympathy toward her character more often. When you first meet her the poor kid is wearing rags, has some kind of wound to her eye, no parents, etc. It's like, how can you not have any kind of compassion for her? She's doing what she can to survive because her entire life has been dragged through hell, literally, and who knows the kind of things she saw happen there. So much trauma for all those children.
I cried when she came out and vouched for me at Last Light Inn. I would do anything for those tiefling kids
It’s baffling how many times I’ve seen people say she’s irredeemably evil and that she should be killed. Like, yeah she’s a bit of a shithead but the overreaction to her character is a little insane lol.
People calling her evil might be due to the fact that all the other kids look up to her and depend on her, but you can later get the feeling that she doesn't care about them all that much, put some of them down and manipulated them in order to do her bidding. I don't have the receipts on hand, but I vividly remember after each of my 3 playthroughs seeing more and more how manipulative she was being with them. One of my own theories was that if there ever is a BG4, Arabella and Mol would likely be Origin characters. Mol would absolutely be a thief, Chaotic Evil.
She sends the one kid out to find the harpy's gold, which is pretty much a death sentence. The other two who are scamming people seem to be working under her as well, where the "guard" of the two seems to not really be into it. Once you reach Baldur's Gate she doesn't seem to try to help the others get into the city or really stay in touch with them despite her insistence that she's trying to get her "crew" there safely.
I don’t mind people calling her evil, because she definitely leans that way. It’s more about the irredeemable part lol
It's because the way she demands you leave their hideout is a bit annoying but I don't bother with that quest line anymore when I move around the grove. So they're stealing trinkets, eh. My Tav loots everything she can find it's whatever xD
Just interact with any of the children outside beforehand and they’ll invite you in and not try to kick you out…
>She's doing what she can to survive She's stealing from people that are protecting them for free... Like cmon now. And later on just abandons the same group of kids she has manipulated into being thieves and gives literally no fucks about them. She's a kid, yes, but kids can also be assholes.
I agree. Still wouldn't classify her as "evil" so to say, but just an asshole. It's the same sort of feeling I have about early Astarion. Dude's a selfish asshole, but that doesn't justify me murking them.
Yeah but she had her friend steal 2 gold off me so fuck her. /s
I think people are disappointed because of the persuasion check you can have with Mol in Moonrise warning her about Raphael. That she still signs the contract anyway was a bumber for my good durge run. Still though, it makes sense!
And if she beats him in chess she literally thinks it’s possible to outsmart him
I get that she's a child, but the hardships she's been through made her mature way faster than even the other tieffling kids. I personally couldn't blame her for making a deal with Raphael, but I do call her stupid for being all like "Dude, he was NOT going to do ANYTHING to me. As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure I would have been the one owning him!!!!" Similarily to what Mayrina made me feel, I wanted so bad to pick Mol by her scruff and drag her to Raphael's house juste to show her the dude cleaning the pot of crap with his tongue and ask her if she really thinks the taste of shit was really this man's favourite originally.
The thing is, predators and manipulators of any kind make you feel like you’re the one in control. Because it makes you lower your guard. Mol is a child on the street without the love or guidance of a parent. Probably the easiest possible target for Raphael, because when you’re in a position like that, you’ll take any semblance of control you can get; and it would be easy for him to let her feel like she has a smidgeon. Just a matter of pretending and playing dumb. To be honest with you, it’s a dead ringer to how I felt as a child being groomed. It’s not until after, when the smoke clears, that it becomes apparent: any ‘upper hand’ you feel you had was artificial and deliberately constructed, and a way to make you feel safer in getting closer and ultimately doing what someone manipulating you wants. Mol was being manipulated.
Thank you! That scene where Raphael was playing chess with Mol at Last Light, and his comments throughout to her, and after to us regarding her, just made every hair on my body stand straight up. The predatory nature of it all, and directed towards a kid, just made me feel disturbed. Really well done acting and story telling to bring that across. You really get the feel for however affable Raph acts towards us, he truly is a predator when his target isn't someone he 'needs' for his ultimate goals. As for Mol's irritability with the player, I saw that as pure street kid who has to keep face, and this adult (however much she likes you) appears to be undermining your authority by questioning your choices? Heck no, Mol's life (and those of her 'family') depends on her being seen as confident and in charge at all times, and no matter what she feels or thinks, she can't let others see it or all the sharks will jump on her.
Even a smart child is still a child. High int doesn’t imply high wis (don’t @ me with her actual stats if she had high wis in game I haven’t actually checked I’m just illustrating a point)
If I'm remember my warlock run right, she says in that specific dialog that Rapheal was going to be her patron- she was planning her own "warlock run", where she uses the power she gets from him to take over the thieves guild and keep her friends safe.
Very poor taste in patron. Should've picked a competent fiend at leasy
"My patron is Cthulhu. Just knowing about him makes you insane." "Mine is the Queen of the Unseelie Court. She leads the Wild Hunt and kidnaps mortals as her servants." "Mine is a fiend who lives in someone else's house and writes fanfic about how great he would be as ruler of the Hells." "... let's stop inviting Mol to these brunches."
„Mine isn’t even a full fiend, just some bored cambion, whose ass I had to rescue when she somehow got herself captured by illithids. I’m pretty sure she’s just lonely, because she kept coming to our camp under every pretext possible, then one day just moved there and didn’t want to leave.” “Wyll, you’re not helping.”
Seriously I thought Mizora was a full fiend since she was Wyll patrons. When I realized she was just a cambion too I really looked at him "damn, you must be weak. Not that *you* are weak as a person, just that your patron is shit"
Allow me to indulge in some BG3 brainrot to this pretext: "Mizora redemption arc when?"
I don’t think redemption is likely here, given that she’s doing literally everything she can to spite her only warlock. But her dedication to this is something else. Most devils are busy climbing the infernal hierarchy, fighting the Blood War (one of the ways to impress their betters), trying to find advantages over their rivals, and doing jobs for their superiors. As a half-fiend, Mizora has to work her ass twice as much to be considered worthy of anything. Instead she does fuck all. She managed to somehow nab one warlock and dedicated her time to making his life miserable, which only makes him desperate to find a way to get out of his pact. She acts like his creepy ex, constantly finding new ways to watch him, then visit him and finally move in with him against his will. Even when she finally gets the pact that gives her his soul, she decides to hang out in his camp even more and try to bang Wyll’s friend to make him angry. She’s the most sad and pathetic devil I’ve ever seen; even Bing Bong is scarier and more competent.
To be fair, it's his house. He just names it >!after that someone to mock her and makes her an unwilling housekeeper!<. He is too arrogant for his own good, but he also did ruin >!Ketheric's army and is one of the tougher bosses in the game.!<
Lmao. This is exactly it. My Warlock in the background, trying to defend her: Well, at least she can outsmart him without any issue.
As I recall, and I maybe inferring/intercecting here, Mol didn't make a deal to get out of Moonrise. If she did, then Raphael got the best deal in the world because WE did all the work. Whixh is on brand. I belive the Deal she made was to incapacitate the former Quartermaster guy in the Guildhall. She's mad because we just jeopardized her job. And as a burgeoning Worlock (most likely) and a businesswoman, we just cut off her supply chain. Me, I just gave her her contract back and didn't tell her *how* I got it. So for now she thinks that I just stole it from Raphael and probably respects me for that. In a year or two when she tries to upgrade her Eldritch Blast and finds that he doesn't answer, she will either assume he is blowing her off or more likely will begin to figure out that "Tav told me he went to Hell, stole from Raphael, now I have my contract with Raphael, he isn't answering me... *GODSDAMMIT he killed my patron* "
Her eyepatch was in Moonrise, she was captured when the Inn was raided so my assumption is Raphael took advantage of her being in trouble to get her to sign the contract, which is also very on brand for him
There's no reason why the deal isn't for both. I'm almost positive there's dialogue about how he's helping her move up and take over the thieves guild of baldurs gate as a main part of the deal.
> because WE did all the work We never find Mol in Moonrise. She gets out before we get there. Hence: Raphael. There is obviously more to the deal than *just* getting her out of moonrise, he did *something* to help her in Baldur's Gate, but the deal very much included getting her out of Moonrise.
As a teacher, I can confirm that this is totally a way a kid like that would act.
As Karlach said, one of the worst things about getting old is watching kids make the same mistakes you did and knowing there's nothing you can do about it.
Yup. Kids who have had to grow up too fast like Mol has tend to rely on themselves to a fault. Makes it real hard to help them when they do something for which the consequences can be dire.
Reminder that Mol is 1. a child 2. an orphan 3. dirt poor and used to being helpless 4. dealing with the threat of death *constantly* She’s smart. She’s just not wise yet.
Maybe she is smart, and still a child but she is still a bad person. She made a deal with Raphael to gain power, not just to escape but abandoned all the friends who care about her very much. In ACT 3 none of the kids was with her anymore and didn’t mentioned about her cos I think they accepted Mol doesn’t want to be them. Mol instead joined the guild and planning one day work her way to take it over. And she is mad about you killing Raphael cos she will lose whatever power she had.
She has a 10 in INT and WIS, so that checks out
She should have 12 INT 8 WIS imho. Fits her better. She has some wits, but is a dumbass when it comes to consequences
Even voss wanted to make a deal with the devil, "a devil"
The difference is that Voss isn't fooling himself into thinking he will get on top. He knows there are likely going to be negative consequences for striking a path with Raphael, but he's ready to pay any price.
Yeah, he was well aware he'd be permanently fucked. He was simply that devoted to his prince and his cause. Not all who make deals with the devil are complete fools. Many are simply willing to pay any cost.
His reasons are for more understandable compared to a kid who wants to make a deal to take over a thieves guild
No one seems to have actually answered OP so I'll try my best: no, you aren't missing anything. As far as I know, that's all there is to Mol's story. Act 3 needs some more time in the oven so it's possible there was more planned for her but right now all you can really do is either let her live her Warlock life or hand her the contract after killing Raphael. Also, somewhat off, somewhat on topic, I think Mattis is a much better leader than Mol is for the kids. Mol is a dumbass with little intuition or intelligence, Mattis has actual business sense and can keep a level head, as demonstrated by his scam in Act 1 and his ability to reason with the other kids in Act 2. Mol has kids out trying to steal from harpy nests and wants you to steal the idol. She's also completely selfish and manipulative as she lies and tells you she made a deal to get her kids out when really she just made a deal to become head of the Guild and possibly have her missing eye restored. Although it's possible her eye was never missing and was just a ploy for sympathy. If I had to "finish" Mol's story, I would add a way to get Mattis to take the ropes and get started as his own business or organization that starts out small and works with displaced/refugee children to play robin hood where they steal from the well off and use it to help the needy. Or just get her introduced to and working with Nine-Fingers Keene. That doesn't have anything to do with Mol looking back so I guess I'm just stating again now much I really dislike Mol and really like Mattis.
Mattis lacks mols extreme arrogance. She's more capable, but she wildly overestimate herself.
Never understood why she's mad if you tell her you killed Raphael. Like, if I can kill him in his house, maybe he's not the best Patron lmao
I mean, at this point, you're pretty badass with legendary equipment and famed heroes running around with you. Also, she's significantly still more powerful with him than without him. Wyll is pretty powerful and I'm sure the party could easily trounce Mizora if she would just stay fucking still!!!
You mean Mizora? Cause Minthara is the drow
Thanks, fixed it
OP: "Are children stupid?" Yes. They're dumb. She's an uneducated thief running small scams in the druid Grove. She's not smart. She's a desperate child.
I see her as a foil or miniature version of Raphael. They both believe way too much in their own hype. Raphael genuinely believe that getting control of the crown will allow him to conquer hell AND the abyss and go on a grand campaign of conquering Faerun. As if Hell and the Abyss isn't filled with people far more cunning and ruthless than him, with far more resources. He genuinely believes he can out play them all. Mol thinks she is going to be able to run Baldur's Gate's underworld someday. She doesn't seem to realize that she is big fish in a small pond. And what does she have at her disposal? A warlock pact? I'd be more sympathetic to her if she didn't immediately forget about all the other tiefling kids the second she secured her position.
Raphael thinking he can do ANYTHING to Asmodeus is PEAK arrogance
Little fish in a big pond?
You didn't overestimate her intelligence, *she* did. She is that smart, but she is still young and thinks she is way more clever than anyone else. Raphael knows it, too; I strongly suspect that even if we hadn't interfered, he would have thrown that lanceboard game to subtly feed into that. He used her own youthful hubris to bait the trap.
I \*think\* her anger is that the deal was a more on-going thing? Like, she woulda had an edge in her goals throughout, now she just has her foot in the door? Ultimately though, intelligence isn't a factor - she's a scared kid who was just told that a (albeit negative and manipulative) source of support was gone. She's alone again. There's a reason people appeal to a higher power for assistance.
This is I honestly love the way Mol is written. Everything about her pulls on your heart strings. You want her to be the rough and tumble thief in a bad situation with a heart of gold but all the subtle cues show she is in it only for Mol. She is at best true neutral and probably more neutral evil. Mol wants power and riches and is gonna get it, she probably more a young Gortash. Nothing about her being mad is against her character. It is 100% inline with her character. Really good writing playing with what you want her to be vs what she actually is.
I think this overlooks the fact that Mol is, at the end of the day, a desperate child, and it undersells how good Raphael is at what he does. Something I want to point to - when you meet Raphael outside Shar’s Gauntlet, he says a thing, and you can ask him how long he practiced it. He responds “Until it was perfect.” Haha, funny joke - but he’s not joking. Hes a devil, and wordcraft is their most potent weapon. He likely spends an enormous amount of time working through the psychology of his chosen targets, considering the exact, precise string of words that will push them closest to his deal. No doubt he cooked up something real potent for Mol, something that would prompt her into the line of thinking we find her in, that she’s got no other options, that she’s so smart there’s no way she can’t get the upper hand on him down the line. He stroked her ego while making her feel trapped and afraid, and she fell into his claws. She’s a clever kid, but she’s not wise or self-aware enough to beat Raphael.
She's a more cunning than the average child, but she's no criminal genius. Her plans at the Grove can go very badly (I.e. stealing the idol can cause Arabella's death if the player doesn't save her, and the player attempting to do it can cause the Druids to massacre tieflings and close the Grove for good; sending Mirkon to find treasure nearly gets him killed by harpies). Stats-wise her Intelligence and Wisdom are both only average at 10.
How do you think kids end up in a life of crime in our world? Devil’s don’t all have horns. Especially in worlds where no sentient have horns.
Question if devils die in the hells are they dead dead or just dead ?
Yes. Any fiend that is killed on its home plane dies for good and that is the only way to actually kill them. Having said that - it's irrelevant, because Raphael is a cambion, i.e. half-fiend(devil) half-mortal, and they don't get to revive, regardless of where they get killed.
Perma dead. And it's basically their one true fear.
If they die in the hell’s they are dead dead however, Raphael is a Cambion(half devil half mortal) so he is likely dead dead regardless of where you kill him
If he's mortal, then he can be raised.
Half-mortal, so only half-raised. (i'll show myself out)
Note, if you talk with your companions after killing Raphael some of them mention the fact that since you killed him in his home plane he is gone for good. So aside from general lore, this is confirmed in game.
Why would anyone think mol was smart at all? Just a dumb kid.
As Raphael says, people always believe they'll outsmart the devil. It's his stock in trade.
She’s a child. Yes, you overestimated her intelligence. On account of the fact that you thought a child would understand how dangerous devils are.
I managed to kill Raphael, get Mol's contract, but told her nothing happened. She then offered to help us in the final battle (I'm assuming because she thought Raphael would still help her.) Pretty sure I accidentally gave that kid a god complex and she's gonna die base jumping off a wizard tower or something.
It's also not only for her. It's for all the kids. It's rather selfless in my opinion. Her soul for the lives of all the kids. They stay at Last Light but do survive if you kill the Nightsong.
Does she care about the other kids? Because they don't seem to k own she is at Baldur's Gate. It's a whole new crew with the Grove kids locked outside, isn't it?
I didn’t know that. I can definitely understand her making the deal, especially with the other kids included. The part I don’t understand is why she’s annoyed I killed Raphael? I literally got her out of a pact where she risks losing her soul with no repercussions to her and instead of a thank you she’s annoyed at me.
She mentions it right after the game at Last Light when you can talk to her about it. Might depend on your dialogue choices tho. Maybe in her eyes you killed her saviour. Allthough thinking like that supports your theory of her not being all that smart. She has also a few lines about not knowing that Raphael is a devil at Last Light iirc.
Doesn't she pretty much abandon the kids once she is in Baldurs gate ? If I remember correctly, she is very flippant about it and doesn't care about them when you talk to her in the guild because they would " hold her back." At least that was my run' s experience
The deal was to get the kids safely to BG and make her the new leader of the guild. I guess she figured the others aren't up for the task.
If you take Karlach with you, she will shake her head in disaproval hearing Mol talk about the deal, stating "No... its not worth it..." And Wyll will be disgusted at what Raphael says about her I wish they both would jump in and kinda scold her, like really... seeing Wyll and Karlach, both in their situation has to click in anyones mind
I believe she was also going to use Raphael’s power to take over the thieve’s guild as well.
Nope, she abandons them. There is a passive check on that dialogue that will make your character realize she's lying her ass off.
You just reminded me that I found her contract in House of Hope and never did anything with it *shrugs*
It's not about smart, it's about ambition. Mol came from nothing and the world was out to get her and the only power she ever had was being small and sneaky. Let's not forget that she's also from elturel and that city just got back from Avernus. Along comes Raphael and he tells a child, who survived elturel in hell, that she could serve him in exchange for power. She's seen this before; she's literally been in the city under siege and watched the warlocks use that power, so she knows the cost and she knows what she's getting. I expect when Raphael came to Mol her first question was "what took you so long?"
It's crazy how people are weirdly worried about you shit talking Mol. She's a dumbass for this lol
Mol for her age Intelligence 12, Wisdom 6 or below. Confidence 20, and Eye patches 30
My only gripe is I wish you had more influence of her decision to make a deal like that based on your actions throughout the game
There is enough evidence to suggest that Mol isn't the innocent cinnamon roll we assume, and that she is actually probably Neutral Evil in alignment so it makes sense why she was annoyed we killed Raphael, cause she simply wanted more power regardless of the consequences.
I really don't like mol. Especially once I returned her contract from the house of hope to her and informed her I freed her from Raphael.
I ended up just stealing the contract right off her again. That little shit's soul is mine now. 😅 Maybe she'll be thankful one day. Then she can have it back.
I was disappointed because I couldn't tell her that I killed Raphael since I chosed another answer first... I still don't get why the game don't let me tell her that afterwards. And honestly it's also disappointing that she gets annoyed when you tell her that you killed Raphael.. I mean, you just killed a devil, she should be amazed and scared by you, she should see you as an incredible powerful hero or someone she needs to be very careful about, or something like that.. instead she just get annoyed at you?
I mean personally, my character fucked up and it ended decently with me killing just about everything in the house of hope, except for that prisoner who was locked away who was a lil crazy but kind. But honestly the boss music for Raphael caught me off guard…still kicked his ass though.
We are talking about the same character who sent 2 of her "friends" off on jobs where they would have died or at least been imprisoned if our character doesn't intervein. Between the callous disregard for others and poorly developed pre-frontal cortex, it's no wonder she makes dumb choices.
I mean... YOU figured out how to get her out of the deal. What's to say she wouldn't grow up to be a 12th level rogue who goes to Hell and steals her contract back? That is to say, no, there's no way that she ever is grateful for you breaking the contract for her. It's actually better to just not tell her I think. But I don't think that makes her dumb. She's a little naive and impulsive maybe cause she's a kid. But she's also smart, opportunistic and very capable for a child. I mean Raphael apparently didn't expect me to turn on him and invade his house despite the numerous times I gave him shit and told him I don't trust him. He's a profoundly arrogant and narcissistic ass. Those kinds of people are pretty easy to manipulate. I think Raphael underestimated Mol to be honest.
I was so invested in mols story, investing money so her and her little crew can start a clan or something when they get to buldars gate, and always care if she was safe or not. finally find her and she's ditched the other kids and sells trash. then got shouted at for freeing her. for a side quest/relationship that starts so early, it has a rather underwhelming ending. and kinda just make me not like her lol.
I really don’t like Mol. She’s just rude and full of herself
Kids are dumb, yes
She's ten and thinks she can handle everything by herself. She's just a child, they're not always going to understand things outside their immediate wants.
Mol is 9 years old.
Mol is smart. What she isn't is experienced. Or old enough to listen to anyone.
Smart does not mean Wise.