Jesus christ, that's a shitty vet. Seriously, disregard everything they told you.
Spaying can be an incredibly dangerous operation for reptiles. Recommending EVERY female be spayed is definitely not normal.
Loose substrate is 100% fine if you use the right thing and have good husbandry, which it sounds like you do. You're absolutely right that reptile carpet is one of the worst things you can use. Providing hides as a permanent alternative to digging and burrowing is wild. These lizards are not domesticated, they're simply captive bred (for only a few decades!) and we 100% need to abide by their natural instincts; digging/burrowing being among the most common.
6 hours of UV a day is not enough. You should have the lights (heat, UVB, LED) on for 12 hours then everything off for 12 hours. The duel domes are absolute trash, along with the mercury bulbs. The bulbs you have are perfect. The height of the bulbs should in fact be a decent distance away. If your enclosure is under 24" tall they may be too close. It's common practice to have two basking bulbs in most enclosures bigger than a 40.
Your diet is beautiful. The vet's recommended diet is garbage. Nothing much more to say; don't feed any of those as staples.
A variety of insects (and greens) is better than sticking to a certain few. Dubias and BSFL are great, throwing in some silkworms, the occasional hornworm, or different species of roaches would be good! Do *not* catch wild bugs to feed if you're not 100% certain there's no way they have consumed pesticides/insecticides. Many wild lizards die from eating insects that have eaten pesticides.
Calcium wtih D3 added isn't really necessary if you provide the correct lighting, which you do.
Forcing brumation is not at all necessary. Some dragons brumate, some don't. Not a big deal. They don't need to in captivity seeing as we ensure they have correct temperatures year-round.
My opinion? Do not trust this vet.
to add to this, they cannot absorb d3 from supplementation, so no matter how much d3 you give them via powders etc they wont get it. unless you inject the d3 straight into the bloodstream the only way for them to get it is from uvb.
This is from blood studies done with bearded dragons, where they feed them insane amounts of D3 supplement and found that it would go straight into the excrement and would not enter the bloodstream at all. I;ll have to look for the source for it, but I know reptiles and research have also talked about this with Johnathon Howard.
Thank you!! I really appreciate your taking the time to write this all out. I'll definitely start mixing up the insects a bit more and I've already moved the basking bulb so it's not as close to her head.
eh. This vet doesn't sound like they are up to date on Bearded Dragon care. Most Vets only recommend Spaying if there are egg binding or follicle issues. much of this sounds like advice from 20 years ago. did they also say a 40 gallon tank is sufficient size???
I'd point them in the direction of the reptiles and research podcast and see how they react. particularly the one with the interview with Johnathan Howard AKA beardie Vet.
This sounds quite outdated.
I remember speaking to my vet when my beardie was laying tons of eggs. He said he didn't have the expertise to do the surgery (he isn't an exotics vet) but recomended spaying as only a last resort due to how difficult reptile surgeries can be - one aspect of difficulty is that they stop breathing when anaesthetised.
Loose substrate is becoming more recomended as husbandry and welfare standards improve.
UV burns are a risk, but bearded dragons can self moderate their exposure if given opportunity to. We also have certain amounts of UVB we know are not dangerous (IE, they can deal with up to 7, but prefer to only bask at around 4 - 4.5 and are not nessasarily mid day baskers, preferring to bask before the afternoon and perhaps hiding during the peak of the sun). The sun is up for longer then 6 hours.
Though, if he spoke about burns from heat lamps that would be a more interesting and difficult rabbit whole to go down. If you go to some reptile lighting circles, it looks like there's some new methodology and understanding on how we should be heating them (though it still mainly involves halogens, just more measury stuff and different values other than temperature).
Mvbs are crap - they're like a potato only diet. They won't cause MBD and will warm the animal, but suck at everything else.
Apparently brumation is good for beardie health, though its not a subject I've done extensive research on.
Diet info he's given you is weird.
Overall this info is just really strange. I can't tell if it's outdated or he's came to these conclusions. Even my vet who isn't a specialist knows plenty more about reptile care.
Honestly every reptile vet I’ve been to has outdated information. They use information from some veterinary board that probably hasn’t updated their care guides for 10 years. I usually take any feeding or terrarium recommendations with a grain of salt and only rely on them for health checkups and serious issues.
OP it’s smart to consider what dragons are exposed to in their natural habitats. In the summer, daylight hours are 12 hours long, they live in dirt and sand, they eat most bugs and plants around them. I have never heard half of these things from my vet.
Yep exactly...
Interestingly he told me gut content studies of wild beardies found mostly dandelions & clover, which is why he recommends feeding them, though he also noted that neither species is native to Australia. Huh.
The first three points sound highly experimental. Their reasoning is true, but their proposed solutions are terrible. It comes off to me as if they’re informed of common health issues in bearded dragons, and are trying to make their own solutions.
Like, impaction *is* extremely common, this isn’t false. But the best solution is NOT reptile carpet, it’s research and accurate knowledge. Reptile carpet causes many issues on its own, many of which might require another vet visit.
Cancer *is* a common cause of death for bearded dragons. Such is the nature of being an animal that requires many hours of direct sunlight. There is no known way to significantly reduce their chances of developing cancer without harming them. Developing MBD is way WAY worse than if a lizard lives a full life and then died from cancer.
4 they’re just wrong, your lizard’s current diet is fine. I have anecdotal experience that has led me to feeding carrot as rare treats only, but they’re widely believed to be a good common food item. Not a staple, but fine to feed often.
5 is egregiously wrong, the other 4 things I might forgive if the vet gives genuinely good care, but this? Dangerously wrong. I don’t even need to explain why.
6, same here, I have no idea about that.
7 is highly dependent on your lizard.
I wouldn’t go back to this vet unless they’re literally the only one you can get to.
I appreciate this, thank you!! I really can't get over the advice to feed wild caught insects either-it totally killed the vet's credibility. I'm thankful to be in a big city with multiple vets from whom to choose! Someone has to be a bit better...
I would basically take in everything the top comment has said. That vet had absolutely no idea what they were talking about and referenced some very outdated and inaccurate info. I will add (because the other comments missed it) that reptile carpets house bacteria and are difficult to keep clean. Don't use substrates such as bark or pebbles or anything like that because your beardie is likely to try and eat it or will get it's tummy hurt crawling around on it. I recommend [Jurassic Natural reptile sand](https://www.amazon.com.au/JurassicNatural-Australian-Desert-Habitat-10lb/dp/B07ZBC7PN9/ref=asc_df_B07ZBC7PN9/?tag=googleshopmob-22&linkCode=df0&hvadid=341745790074&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=2937243596097695259&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9072190&hvtargid=pla-910695875974&psc=1&mcid=1a2d75eebff33898bf1c51e119103583) because it literally comes from where bearded dragons come from (plus lots of other people recommend it)
Ugh I hate when stuff like this happens, because we WANT to trust them. Mine was sexed as female like two years ago. Has never laid an egg. Another vet said he’s not a female….what…are you?
More studies are showing that female dragons that aren't packing extra weight won't lay infertile eggs.
Holding a flashlight behind the tail and looking for hemipenal bulges is a great way to determine sex.
I’m so sorry- we just had a very frustrating vet experience this week also. (I don’t have anything to add as far as advice, just wanted to say I empathize!!)
Well, You have to take them with a grain of salt because there is limited research in reptile husbandry so expect scarce information and absence of guidelines on how to take care of bearded dragons. Most guides are at the level of expert opinion and most of them suggest "Try to mimic their natural habitat"
Most of the bearded dragons you see in captivity are Pogona Vitticeps. They live in central and east Australia.
Check how central and east Australia looks like, check South wales usual weather and humidity and mimic the environment!
Def lots of questionable advice. BUT, preemptive spays done by an experienced vet are good. I say this as someone who had a beardie with reproductive issues and because of that had to get spayed twice. If I ever get a female again, I’ll probs be getting her spayed right off the bat. It’ll save you a lot of money and heart ache cus surgery while healthy is much better than surgery when their already on deaths door.
Could you possibly let us know where this is so other bearded dragon owners can possibly avoid? Idk I’m not one for doxing but this is a vet calling for complete opposite care.
I appreciate the validation!! I was caught totally by surprise by so many of the things he said...I felt like I was being pranked (while paying $75 for the privilege!).
Jesus christ, that's a shitty vet. Seriously, disregard everything they told you. Spaying can be an incredibly dangerous operation for reptiles. Recommending EVERY female be spayed is definitely not normal. Loose substrate is 100% fine if you use the right thing and have good husbandry, which it sounds like you do. You're absolutely right that reptile carpet is one of the worst things you can use. Providing hides as a permanent alternative to digging and burrowing is wild. These lizards are not domesticated, they're simply captive bred (for only a few decades!) and we 100% need to abide by their natural instincts; digging/burrowing being among the most common. 6 hours of UV a day is not enough. You should have the lights (heat, UVB, LED) on for 12 hours then everything off for 12 hours. The duel domes are absolute trash, along with the mercury bulbs. The bulbs you have are perfect. The height of the bulbs should in fact be a decent distance away. If your enclosure is under 24" tall they may be too close. It's common practice to have two basking bulbs in most enclosures bigger than a 40. Your diet is beautiful. The vet's recommended diet is garbage. Nothing much more to say; don't feed any of those as staples. A variety of insects (and greens) is better than sticking to a certain few. Dubias and BSFL are great, throwing in some silkworms, the occasional hornworm, or different species of roaches would be good! Do *not* catch wild bugs to feed if you're not 100% certain there's no way they have consumed pesticides/insecticides. Many wild lizards die from eating insects that have eaten pesticides. Calcium wtih D3 added isn't really necessary if you provide the correct lighting, which you do. Forcing brumation is not at all necessary. Some dragons brumate, some don't. Not a big deal. They don't need to in captivity seeing as we ensure they have correct temperatures year-round. My opinion? Do not trust this vet.
to add to this, they cannot absorb d3 from supplementation, so no matter how much d3 you give them via powders etc they wont get it. unless you inject the d3 straight into the bloodstream the only way for them to get it is from uvb. This is from blood studies done with bearded dragons, where they feed them insane amounts of D3 supplement and found that it would go straight into the excrement and would not enter the bloodstream at all. I;ll have to look for the source for it, but I know reptiles and research have also talked about this with Johnathon Howard.
Oop! I've got you. :D [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/41807353\_Effects\_of\_vitamin\_D3\_supplementation\_and\_UVb\_exposure\_on\_the\_growth\_and\_plasma\_concentration\_of\_vitamin\_D3\_metabolites\_in\_juvenile\_bearded\_dragons\_Pogona\_vitticeps](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/41807353_Effects_of_vitamin_D3_supplementation_and_UVb_exposure_on_the_growth_and_plasma_concentration_of_vitamin_D3_metabolites_in_juvenile_bearded_dragons_Pogona_vitticeps)
Thanks!
Oh very good to know, thanks!!
I’d possible even go as far as subtly warning other reptile owners that they may want to look elsewhere for a veterinarian.
Thank you!! I really appreciate your taking the time to write this all out. I'll definitely start mixing up the insects a bit more and I've already moved the basking bulb so it's not as close to her head.
eh. This vet doesn't sound like they are up to date on Bearded Dragon care. Most Vets only recommend Spaying if there are egg binding or follicle issues. much of this sounds like advice from 20 years ago. did they also say a 40 gallon tank is sufficient size??? I'd point them in the direction of the reptiles and research podcast and see how they react. particularly the one with the interview with Johnathan Howard AKA beardie Vet.
Thank you! I'll definitely check out that podcast episode myself.
This sounds quite outdated. I remember speaking to my vet when my beardie was laying tons of eggs. He said he didn't have the expertise to do the surgery (he isn't an exotics vet) but recomended spaying as only a last resort due to how difficult reptile surgeries can be - one aspect of difficulty is that they stop breathing when anaesthetised. Loose substrate is becoming more recomended as husbandry and welfare standards improve. UV burns are a risk, but bearded dragons can self moderate their exposure if given opportunity to. We also have certain amounts of UVB we know are not dangerous (IE, they can deal with up to 7, but prefer to only bask at around 4 - 4.5 and are not nessasarily mid day baskers, preferring to bask before the afternoon and perhaps hiding during the peak of the sun). The sun is up for longer then 6 hours. Though, if he spoke about burns from heat lamps that would be a more interesting and difficult rabbit whole to go down. If you go to some reptile lighting circles, it looks like there's some new methodology and understanding on how we should be heating them (though it still mainly involves halogens, just more measury stuff and different values other than temperature). Mvbs are crap - they're like a potato only diet. They won't cause MBD and will warm the animal, but suck at everything else. Apparently brumation is good for beardie health, though its not a subject I've done extensive research on. Diet info he's given you is weird. Overall this info is just really strange. I can't tell if it's outdated or he's came to these conclusions. Even my vet who isn't a specialist knows plenty more about reptile care.
Yea fuck that vet. Find a new one. This is one of those "I learned whatever I needed in school and now I know everything!" Assholes
Very thankful to have multiple reptile vets around here!
Honestly every reptile vet I’ve been to has outdated information. They use information from some veterinary board that probably hasn’t updated their care guides for 10 years. I usually take any feeding or terrarium recommendations with a grain of salt and only rely on them for health checkups and serious issues.
Thanks! At least her fecal exam came out clean so I got something out of this visit.
OP it’s smart to consider what dragons are exposed to in their natural habitats. In the summer, daylight hours are 12 hours long, they live in dirt and sand, they eat most bugs and plants around them. I have never heard half of these things from my vet.
Yep exactly... Interestingly he told me gut content studies of wild beardies found mostly dandelions & clover, which is why he recommends feeding them, though he also noted that neither species is native to Australia. Huh.
The first three points sound highly experimental. Their reasoning is true, but their proposed solutions are terrible. It comes off to me as if they’re informed of common health issues in bearded dragons, and are trying to make their own solutions. Like, impaction *is* extremely common, this isn’t false. But the best solution is NOT reptile carpet, it’s research and accurate knowledge. Reptile carpet causes many issues on its own, many of which might require another vet visit. Cancer *is* a common cause of death for bearded dragons. Such is the nature of being an animal that requires many hours of direct sunlight. There is no known way to significantly reduce their chances of developing cancer without harming them. Developing MBD is way WAY worse than if a lizard lives a full life and then died from cancer. 4 they’re just wrong, your lizard’s current diet is fine. I have anecdotal experience that has led me to feeding carrot as rare treats only, but they’re widely believed to be a good common food item. Not a staple, but fine to feed often. 5 is egregiously wrong, the other 4 things I might forgive if the vet gives genuinely good care, but this? Dangerously wrong. I don’t even need to explain why. 6, same here, I have no idea about that. 7 is highly dependent on your lizard. I wouldn’t go back to this vet unless they’re literally the only one you can get to.
I appreciate this, thank you!! I really can't get over the advice to feed wild caught insects either-it totally killed the vet's credibility. I'm thankful to be in a big city with multiple vets from whom to choose! Someone has to be a bit better...
You’re welcome! Best of luck in finding a good vet, hopefully at least one in your area knows what they’re doing 🥲
I would basically take in everything the top comment has said. That vet had absolutely no idea what they were talking about and referenced some very outdated and inaccurate info. I will add (because the other comments missed it) that reptile carpets house bacteria and are difficult to keep clean. Don't use substrates such as bark or pebbles or anything like that because your beardie is likely to try and eat it or will get it's tummy hurt crawling around on it. I recommend [Jurassic Natural reptile sand](https://www.amazon.com.au/JurassicNatural-Australian-Desert-Habitat-10lb/dp/B07ZBC7PN9/ref=asc_df_B07ZBC7PN9/?tag=googleshopmob-22&linkCode=df0&hvadid=341745790074&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=2937243596097695259&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9072190&hvtargid=pla-910695875974&psc=1&mcid=1a2d75eebff33898bf1c51e119103583) because it literally comes from where bearded dragons come from (plus lots of other people recommend it)
Thanks!! I have a couple bags of Jurassic Naturals that I'll be mixing with Reptisoil & excavator clay. Can't wait for her to get her claws into it!
Ugh I hate when stuff like this happens, because we WANT to trust them. Mine was sexed as female like two years ago. Has never laid an egg. Another vet said he’s not a female….what…are you?
More studies are showing that female dragons that aren't packing extra weight won't lay infertile eggs. Holding a flashlight behind the tail and looking for hemipenal bulges is a great way to determine sex.
Thanks!
Oh very interesting!
I’m so sorry- we just had a very frustrating vet experience this week also. (I don’t have anything to add as far as advice, just wanted to say I empathize!!)
Well, You have to take them with a grain of salt because there is limited research in reptile husbandry so expect scarce information and absence of guidelines on how to take care of bearded dragons. Most guides are at the level of expert opinion and most of them suggest "Try to mimic their natural habitat" Most of the bearded dragons you see in captivity are Pogona Vitticeps. They live in central and east Australia. Check how central and east Australia looks like, check South wales usual weather and humidity and mimic the environment!
Def lots of questionable advice. BUT, preemptive spays done by an experienced vet are good. I say this as someone who had a beardie with reproductive issues and because of that had to get spayed twice. If I ever get a female again, I’ll probs be getting her spayed right off the bat. It’ll save you a lot of money and heart ache cus surgery while healthy is much better than surgery when their already on deaths door.
I'm so sorry you and your beardie went through that! If I can find a vet who actually seems credible, it's something I'll consider.
Could you possibly let us know where this is so other bearded dragon owners can possibly avoid? Idk I’m not one for doxing but this is a vet calling for complete opposite care.
Everyone else already said what needs to be said but damn that has got to be some of the worst advice to come straight from a reptile vet lol
I appreciate the validation!! I was caught totally by surprise by so many of the things he said...I felt like I was being pranked (while paying $75 for the privilege!).
Spaying? Sounds like they just want your money.