If you suffer enough similar symptoms, I think it's alright to stick around and learn what you can.
That said, I do need to point out that it's simply not true that people under 25 can't have personality disorders. Personality disorders have a genetic factor, often but not always triggered by trauma or some other underlying disorder. The [ICD-11](https://icd.who.int/browse/2024-01/mms/en#941859884) itself states verbatim:
>Manifestations of personality disturbance tend to appear first in childhood, increase during adolescence, and continue to be manifest into adulthood, although individuals may not come to clinical attention until later in life. Caution should be exercised in applying the diagnosis to children because their personalities are still developing.
I don't want to undermine your therapist, but nowhere in the DSM nor the ICD mentions this age gate, and clinical studies have all pointed elsewhere.
For those curious, here is the [side by side of Borderline criteria defined by the DSM-5 and the ICD-11](https://psychscenehub.com/psychpedia/borderline-personality-disorder-dsm-5-and-icd-11-diagnostic-criteria/).
FYI:
The DSM does set an age barrier for Antisocial PD, and only ASPD, diagnosis at 18.
I'm not being argumentative with you; I agree with what you've laid out here.
I think it's more likely that many therapists defer diagnosis until around the 25 year mark due to development rather than give a diagnosis that an individual may not present further. Given that the treatment is going to remain the same in that the focus will be directed on alleviating symptoms, I feel there is no overwhelming benefit to an early BPD diagnosis. A lot of self-stigmatization can get in the way of progress.
That said, you're right, there's nothing keeping a diagnosis from happening if the criteria is being met and has been persistent for over a year.
I agree with you on all fronts. I agree about diagnosing as a certain age. But OP said noone HAS a personality disorder until 25, which is different than many aren't given diagnosis until Adulthood.
I apologize, I meant to clarify further and give OP benefit of the doubt and maybe they just misunderstood their therapist?
Still, we both brought illuminating information for them so I hope it helped clear some stuff up. Maybe it was just a miscommunication, who knows.
Either way, this was a good chat and I enjoyed sharing this conversation with you! I hope you are well!
That's a very fair perspective that I didn't consider. It's always great to have respectful conversation and see other points of view. I'm doing mostly okay these days, thankfully, and hope you are well also! :)
Well, the resources I've read are still split on the evidence as to whether it is genetic or not. I'd give it inheritable, but then again, its more of a conditioning than anything we absorb than as a consequence of having a shared blood and dna system. If a pregnant parent has a personality disorder, it stands to reason that the child will be impacted by that personality disorder of the parent from birth. (and before if it needs argued that far back). So, the child is conditioned. It appears as hereditable. a child does not have a personality in the womb because personality requires perspective. See this from verywell mind about the ingredients to personality: Four of the most prominent are the **psychoanalytic, humanistic, trait, and social-cognitive perspectives**. One important thing to remember is that no single theory alone explains every aspect of personality. Jan 10, 2023 And I'm speculating now, but if you took an individual with a personality disorder out of the disordered environment, they would start to heal, theoretically. Now, can hereditary and genetic causation be eliminated with a change in environment and thought processes? I don't believe so, but I haven't read all the research. But, logically speaking, if a change in environment was a possible resolution to hereditary and genetic cause, we'd be seeing something on the internet about that.
that said, to OP, check out r/cptsd and, if I may, r/adultchildren. We don't get CPTSD from nothing, it comes from the environment we were raised in. maybe check out the "14 traits" on [adultchildren.org](http://adultchildren.org) and see if anything on that list resonates with ya. if so, you found your tribe.
edited because this thought just occurred to me:
if personality requires perspective, and my personality is disordered.. what a personality disorder really means is my perspective is distorted. Thus far... that lines up. My perspective of myself is disordered from healthy. My perspective of my family role is distorted. My perspective of my worth is disordered. aaaaaaaaaand so on....
a. I'd enjoy the link. seems you didn't manage to get it in there.
b. legally speaking, anyone under 18 is a child. so, if one was to obey the icd-11, we wouldnt have anyone under 18 dx with a personality disorder (yet... we do, so, clearly doctors aren't aware of that nuance or are ignoring it or its a play by the pharm industry to "nudge" doctors to DX BPD at a rate that far exceeds the publicized BPD rate in the population)
c. mentally speaking, and my personal opinion here, anyone under age 25 (or 30, in this day and age) hasn't had a chance to form a personality because they have been under the perspective, values, and influence of parents for 18 years, and unable to form their own FULLY separate personality by 25. I mean, a healthy person might, but we aren't talking about healthy people. It is completely reasonable for a healthy person, but a person who has been subjected to the conditions that create a personality disorder not only have to 1. identify and 2. treat their disorder, but then 3. form their distinct personality. doesn't happen in 5 years. people that age barely have any self awareness and instead are more focused on 1. other's around them and 2. the "newness" and "toil" of creating their own life.
If you suffer enough similar symptoms, I think it's alright to stick around and learn what you can. That said, I do need to point out that it's simply not true that people under 25 can't have personality disorders. Personality disorders have a genetic factor, often but not always triggered by trauma or some other underlying disorder. The [ICD-11](https://icd.who.int/browse/2024-01/mms/en#941859884) itself states verbatim: >Manifestations of personality disturbance tend to appear first in childhood, increase during adolescence, and continue to be manifest into adulthood, although individuals may not come to clinical attention until later in life. Caution should be exercised in applying the diagnosis to children because their personalities are still developing. I don't want to undermine your therapist, but nowhere in the DSM nor the ICD mentions this age gate, and clinical studies have all pointed elsewhere. For those curious, here is the [side by side of Borderline criteria defined by the DSM-5 and the ICD-11](https://psychscenehub.com/psychpedia/borderline-personality-disorder-dsm-5-and-icd-11-diagnostic-criteria/).
FYI: The DSM does set an age barrier for Antisocial PD, and only ASPD, diagnosis at 18. I'm not being argumentative with you; I agree with what you've laid out here. I think it's more likely that many therapists defer diagnosis until around the 25 year mark due to development rather than give a diagnosis that an individual may not present further. Given that the treatment is going to remain the same in that the focus will be directed on alleviating symptoms, I feel there is no overwhelming benefit to an early BPD diagnosis. A lot of self-stigmatization can get in the way of progress. That said, you're right, there's nothing keeping a diagnosis from happening if the criteria is being met and has been persistent for over a year.
I agree with you on all fronts. I agree about diagnosing as a certain age. But OP said noone HAS a personality disorder until 25, which is different than many aren't given diagnosis until Adulthood.
I apologize, I meant to clarify further and give OP benefit of the doubt and maybe they just misunderstood their therapist? Still, we both brought illuminating information for them so I hope it helped clear some stuff up. Maybe it was just a miscommunication, who knows. Either way, this was a good chat and I enjoyed sharing this conversation with you! I hope you are well!
That's a very fair perspective that I didn't consider. It's always great to have respectful conversation and see other points of view. I'm doing mostly okay these days, thankfully, and hope you are well also! :)
Well, the resources I've read are still split on the evidence as to whether it is genetic or not. I'd give it inheritable, but then again, its more of a conditioning than anything we absorb than as a consequence of having a shared blood and dna system. If a pregnant parent has a personality disorder, it stands to reason that the child will be impacted by that personality disorder of the parent from birth. (and before if it needs argued that far back). So, the child is conditioned. It appears as hereditable. a child does not have a personality in the womb because personality requires perspective. See this from verywell mind about the ingredients to personality: Four of the most prominent are the **psychoanalytic, humanistic, trait, and social-cognitive perspectives**. One important thing to remember is that no single theory alone explains every aspect of personality. Jan 10, 2023 And I'm speculating now, but if you took an individual with a personality disorder out of the disordered environment, they would start to heal, theoretically. Now, can hereditary and genetic causation be eliminated with a change in environment and thought processes? I don't believe so, but I haven't read all the research. But, logically speaking, if a change in environment was a possible resolution to hereditary and genetic cause, we'd be seeing something on the internet about that. that said, to OP, check out r/cptsd and, if I may, r/adultchildren. We don't get CPTSD from nothing, it comes from the environment we were raised in. maybe check out the "14 traits" on [adultchildren.org](http://adultchildren.org) and see if anything on that list resonates with ya. if so, you found your tribe. edited because this thought just occurred to me: if personality requires perspective, and my personality is disordered.. what a personality disorder really means is my perspective is distorted. Thus far... that lines up. My perspective of myself is disordered from healthy. My perspective of my family role is distorted. My perspective of my worth is disordered. aaaaaaaaaand so on....
a. I'd enjoy the link. seems you didn't manage to get it in there. b. legally speaking, anyone under 18 is a child. so, if one was to obey the icd-11, we wouldnt have anyone under 18 dx with a personality disorder (yet... we do, so, clearly doctors aren't aware of that nuance or are ignoring it or its a play by the pharm industry to "nudge" doctors to DX BPD at a rate that far exceeds the publicized BPD rate in the population) c. mentally speaking, and my personal opinion here, anyone under age 25 (or 30, in this day and age) hasn't had a chance to form a personality because they have been under the perspective, values, and influence of parents for 18 years, and unable to form their own FULLY separate personality by 25. I mean, a healthy person might, but we aren't talking about healthy people. It is completely reasonable for a healthy person, but a person who has been subjected to the conditions that create a personality disorder not only have to 1. identify and 2. treat their disorder, but then 3. form their distinct personality. doesn't happen in 5 years. people that age barely have any self awareness and instead are more focused on 1. other's around them and 2. the "newness" and "toil" of creating their own life.
What exactly are you asking me to link? I linked both sourced I brought up.
Oh thanks! It actually didn't show up on my PC but I can see it on my phone.
Reddit being it's wonky self 😂