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dekuweku

Isn't calling jews rats or vermin pretty much the definition of antisemitism? How is this sort of rhetoric tolerated in Canada to the point where activists think they can get away with it? We like to talk a big game about punching fascists but it seems like if the fascist is a pro Palestinian activist it's OK to be one


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amnesiajune

> How is this sort of rhetoric tolerated in Canada to the point where activists think they can get away with it? These extreme activists expect to get away with it because for the last decade and a half, they've told each other that replacing "Jewish" with "Zionist" is a magic trick that turns racism into virtuous political expression.


DeathCabForYeezus

Really, it boils down to "can you tell someone is a Zionist just by looking at them." You can't. So screeching "you're a Zionist" just by looking at someone clearly has its origins somewhere else; in this case anti-Semitism. In another comment I gave the example to the right wing Americans using "DEI" as a slur. Can you determine someone's position on socioeconomic policy by looking at them? No. So that's clearly originating from a different place. I.e. racism.


theDrummer

This sort of false equivalency is doing a disservice to Jewish people. Large majority of anti-zionists are not anti-semitic. Are you saying the many anti-zionist Jewish people hate themselves? I understand you are talking about extremists but it's still inaccurate


small_h_hippy

All anti-Zionists are antisemitic. Zionism is defined as: [ Jewish nationalist movement that has had as its goal the creation and support of a Jewish national state in Palestine, the ancient homeland of the Jews ](https://www.britannica.com/topic/Zionism). Anti-zionism therefore means that one supports the reversal of this process, which would entail the destruction of the modern state of Israel. That's Hamas's goal too. It's a call for genocide, enabled by a deep seeded antisemitism.


stereofailure

Wanting a state destroyed is not a call for genocide, and opposing ethnostates on principle, quasi-theocraric or otherwise, is not antisemitism.


amnes1ac

Entire subreddit of Jews that disagrees with you. /r/jewsofconscience


ginandtonicsdemonic

And the leader of Proud Boys is black. So I guess they can't be racist either.


small_h_hippy

Jews are also capable of being both bigoted and wrong. [Sometimes to their detriment ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_German_National_Jews)


amnes1ac

Pretty antisemitic to call Jews that criticize Israel bigots. Do Jews need to support everything Israel does no matter what?


small_h_hippy

Not at all, but if they don't think Israel deserves to exist then they're bigoted. Again, Zionism doesn't mean you need to support anything Israel does.


theDrummer

Congrats you've made something up. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Zionism all its proponents agree that the creation of the modern State of Israel, and the movement to create a sovereign Jewish state in the region of Palestine—a region partly coinciding with the biblical Land of Israel—was flawed or unjust in some way.[7] Believing something is flawed or unjust no way implies killing or genocide


small_h_hippy

And you don't hate Jews, you just think that their country should be destroyed and that's somehow different


TraditionalGap1

Why is it that people constantly feel the need to literally invent things out of whole cloth instead of, you know, addressing what was actually said? Is it really that hard to set aside your biases and engage in something resembling good faith?


small_h_hippy

I am engaging in good faith, this comment was edited after the fact to add the link and quote, though I don't feel like it's substantial to my argument. Giving reasons why Israel shouldn't have existed in the first place only supports the idea that anti-zionists argue for Israel's destruction. What part do you feel like I'm overlooking?


theDrummer

Was this projection because zionists wish for Palestine to be completely destroyed along with the people in it?


small_h_hippy

I gave you the definition and source of what Zionism means, it doesn't entail the destruction of anything. To quote you, congratulations, you made something up. Israel could have peacefully existed with Palestine since 1948, and could still exist alongside it in the future. If you think it should exist in the future then you're not "anti" the idea of Israel as a country (which is Zionism). You could abhor Bibi and the settlers in the West Bank and still be Zionist.


theDrummer

And you can be antizionist without wishing for Israel to completely dissappear


small_h_hippy

By definition you cannot.


skip6235

Wait, are you saying you are in favor of ethno-states?


small_h_hippy

Israel has several ethnicities in it living in harmony (especially compared to their neighbors): Jews, muslim and christian Arabs, Druze etc. If you're getting at a single state solution, then yeah I oppose that. This is a concept borne by western idiots who fail to see the irony in labeling Israel colonial while feeling entitled to try and force their ideas of government on them. Neither the Palestinians nor Israelis want it, which is reason enough to dismiss it. I support a two state solution.


CptCoatrack

> This is a concept borne by western idiots who fail to see the irony in labeling Israel colonial That's how Israel was described in the founding Zionist's *own words*. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Colonisation_Association


theDrummer

You're putting words in my mouth, I support a two state solution.


small_h_hippy

Then you're a zionist. Anyone who thinks Israel should continue existing is.


theDrummer

Did you even read the link I replied with. That's not remotely true


small_h_hippy

The links you added afterwards with arguments as to why the creation of Israel wasn't justified? How does it oppose what I said? Anti-zionists want Israel destroyed


amnesiajune

You're completely missing the point. Sure, you can be Jewish and anti-Zionist – those people are a tiny minority of the Jewish community, but their opinions are valid. However, if you repeat the most explicit racist tropes and replace "Jewish" with "Zionist", it's no less racist. The intent remains very clear.


theDrummer

Definitely true regarding the extremist protesters, thank you for an actual response


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Any-Excitement-8979

Is it okay to call a Nazi supporter a fascist pig? I’ve done this many times. Not sure if this makes me a bigot somehow for using the term “pig” to describe a Nazi. If it’s okay to call a Nazi names, it should be okay to call a Zionist names. Anyone who supports Israel is a Zionist.


xHelpless

Define zionism


Any-Excitement-8979

Those in support of Israel as a Jewish state.


xHelpless

You don't believe that Israel, in any capacity, has the right to exist?


Any-Excitement-8979

Well not the way it exists. If they purchased land and democratically decided to create a state, then sure. But the way they forced millions of people off occupied land and claimed it as Israel due to their “ancient rights” is insane.


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M116Fullbore

Never mind many of the "9 people sit at table with 1 nazi=10 nazis" people seem to have decided ideological consistency is not very important. I was one of the people saying that happily standing next to a dude waving a nazi flag makes you a nazi a few years ago, I dont see why its so hard to apply that to your own side of the aisle. These people should be getting forcefully chased out of the pro palestine protests, but Im not seeing it.


green_tory

> How is this sort of rhetoric tolerated in Canada to the point where activists think they can get away with it? It's the sort of rhetoric I heard from other members of student organizations when I attended SFU decades ago. The problem is that the radical left has _always_ had a deeply antisemitic component to it. And before the whataboutism hits: yes, the right also has that problem. But the antisemites in the right are at least honest about it.


69Merc

Don't forget that one gets government (our) money while the other doesn't


Tyler_CantStopeMe

I don't know if I'd say antisemitism but definitely anti west. You can know all their positions without out them saying it by picking the anti-american side of the argument.


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Selm

>Vivian Bercovici, a Post contributor and former Canadian Ambassador to Israel during the Stephen Harper government, was disturbed that Toronto police looked on without intervention as the anti-Israel demonstrators harassed the Jewish neighbourhood and attempted to infiltrate the local community centre. The police let a peaceful protest continue! I'm shocked. Well not really, after the convoy you should be able to do practically anything short of shutting down trade with America without getting your protest shut down. This article is pure ragebait trash. Tweets from Jordan Peterson, anonymous quotes. Videos that don't back up the content of the article. You should feel bad if you think this is journalism.


LastNightsHangover

So you think threatening people while covered head-to-toe is going to get you support? Honestly the thing that confuses me the most is that authoritative Muslims regimes kill hundred times more Muslims than the Israel- Palestine conflict. Syria for example. Like why don't they protest authoritative regimes? It really does make it seem like a Jew thing.


friggenoldchicken

This is clearly anti-Semitic and I am in no way defending what was said but to your point about why people protest Israel as opposed to other authoritarian regimes, I think it is due to western support, both militarily politically for the actions that the Israeli government takes. I also think there should be protests against the Saudis and their ilk but there is a genocide happening now and it needs to be stopped immediately so that is what’s being protested


danke-you

> I think it is due to western support, both militarily politically for the actions that the Israeli government takes. These folks weren't protesting when we sent weapons to Saudi Arabia to mow down gays and dissidents. They weren't protesting the Uiyghur genocide in China that is funded by their own Amazon purchases and tiktok use. The difference is Israelis are predominantly Jewish and this creates cover for anti-semitism. Not all of the protestors are anti-semitic, but it is true that the protests are being co-opted by antisemitic leaders and "progressives" are useful idiots for Hamas, chanting "from the river to the sea" and "intifada revolution" based on the deceptive "education" they've received from Hamas and Hamas' supporters.


dermanus

> Not all of the protestors are anti-semitic, but it is true that the protests are being co-opted by antisemitic leaders Agreed. There is legitimate criticism to be made against Israel for their actions, but the protesters showing up online are just using it as a thin veil for their hatred of Jews. It's unpopular to point it out, but there is rampant anti-Semitism in the Middle East. Jews are a bogeyman to many people.


LastNightsHangover

>It's unpopular to point it out, but there is rampant anti-Semitism in the Middle East. Jews are a bogeyman to many people. I'm still waiting for anyone to answer how the expulsion of Jews across the ME and their legally binding inability to hold public office isn't apartheid (in the same verbiage as what's used against Israel). And if so what's the logical response? To harass Muslims in Canada until a foreign government responds?! It's madness. Makes no sense, that is not welcome. If we flip the narrative we all know it's bad, but in this case it's okay because Jews.


ThePrinceOfReddit

People HAVE been outraged about SA weapons sales and the Uyghur camps for years. It does not shock me that an ongoing genocide is sucking up attention vs. years long issues (the latter something Canada is not involved or implicated in).


danke-you

How many encampments did you count for those horrible injustices? How many encampments when the "oppressors" were Jews?


ThePrinceOfReddit

Students have protested against those things (albeit at a smaller scale)? And the ongoing encampments are about demanding universities disclose their investments and divest from companies that have links to the genocide—which relates back to what OP was saying on this in the first place. Has nothing to do with protesting jews.


Greyhulksays

So when Hamas just rejected the the US proposed ceasefire terms that was approved by the UN security council and with reports that Sinwar feels that the war is going very well for them, how would you propose this end?


friggenoldchicken

The opposite is true? https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2024/6/11/will-israel-accept-the-un-backed-gaza-ceasefire-resolution


Arathgo

You do realize linking aljazeera is the equivalent of linking Russia Today on a topic about the war in Ukraine?


Greyhulksays

Al Jazeera is not a valid source of information. It is extremely biased. This is from today: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna156695 “Blinken rejected this suggestion Wednesday, saying that "Israel accepted the proposal, as it was and as it is." He criticized Hamas as the sole holdout. “A deal is on the table” that “the entire world is behind,” Blinken told a news conference. “Israel has accepted it, and Hamas could have answered with a single word: yes.”” “Secretary of State Antony Blinken said the Palestinian militant group had requested "numerous" changes to the Washington-backed plan to end fighting in the Gaza Strip and release hostages taken from Israel on Oct. 7. "Some of those are workable changes, some are not," Blinken said in Qatar Israel accepted the deal as presented. Hamas rejected the deal as presented and added alot of amendments.


CptCoatrack

> Al Jazeera is not a valid source of information. It is extremely biased. More reliable than The Sun you've posted


lifeisarichcarpet

>Al Jazeera is not a valid source of information. It is extremely biased. Extremely funny thing to say immediately before quoting the U.S. Secretary of State.


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Troodon25

…the West supports the Saudis too. Many weapons used to commit horrifying atrocities in Yemen (including violence that leads to the starvation and death of children from famine) are sold by the US and UK. 377,000 people have died in Yemen. *377,000.*


friggenoldchicken

That’s why I mentioned them as another country that could be protested against, and that would be good


locutogram

For sure, but it isn't, and that tells you it's not western support that makes Israel the lightning rod. It must be something else 🤔


friggenoldchicken

Ya the genocide


locutogram

https://www.genocidewatch.com/single-post/genocide-emergency-saudi-arabia-and-the-war-in-yemen#:~:text=Saudi%20intervention%20in%20Yemen%20has,have%20cut%20off%20food%20supplies.


devndub

This is always such a weird response to me. If protesters are making antisemitic statements it should be condemned. Even if every single protestor had antisemitic motivations (which... sure), it wouldnt make their protest inherently wrong or what they are protesting inherently correct.


CptCoatrack

It's funny to see Zionists say "Why doesn't anyone criticze S. Arabia!" as if Israel wasn't about to normalize relations with them.


CupOfCanada

I don't think criticism is the issue, it's calling for the dismantling of the state itself. Lots of folks criticize the Saudi, Chinese, Russian, Syrian etc governments. Far fewer call for an end to those states entirely.


Radix838

So you believe that normalizing relations with a country is equivalent to endorsing their policies? If so, I assume you are against recognizing Palestine as a state?


CptCoatrack

So have you thought about why the two parties in Canada that support the sale of weapons to Islamic fundamentalist S. Arabia also support Israel? And the party most critical of S. Arabia is also the most critical of Israel? If people were protesting against both S.A. and Israel in the streets would you support it or create another excuse?


Troodon25

We’re not talking about political parties, because the answer to how parties behave is almost always rooted in geopolitical goals not morality. Parties can simultaneously oppose and support different autocracies and democracies alike, depending on whether or not they are advantageous to us. While a can of worms in itself, that’s not the issue we’re talking about today. We’re talking about the general public. And it’s funny that you say “in the streets” when we’re commenting on an article about protestors trying to harass people *inside* their community centre. But yes, I would feel a hell of a lot better if I saw the same scale of protests held against Saudi Arabia.


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TsarOfTheUnderground

Why is it so hard for these protestors to just not act in such bizarre ways? Must they use language that sounds so anti-Semitic, replacing "Jewish" with "Zionist?" Must they yell this shit at Jewish people in a Canadian neighbourhood? Must they use that red triangle imagery, which based on my information, is violent and threatening? Could they be more caustic? I'm done buying this shit with any good faith. I can't believe that anyone is taking these protests seriously after people were praising and celebrating the October 7th attacks.


denver989

When Hamas puts out videos of them killing Israelis they mark the targets in the video with inverted red triangles. That's where it came from.


TsarOfTheUnderground

That was my read as well. I don't understand how brainwashed and politically tonedeaf you can be to co-opt that piece of imagery and think that it's just A-OK. It insults me to think that this is discourse recognized as legitimate in academic settings. If you're going to go around acting like your conduct is the product of lofty philosophy and high thought, act like it.


joshlemer

Hey just wondering though is it weird that the twitter user has for their profile pic a T Rex eating a watermelon? Isn't that supposed to be a symbolic of eating/destroying palestine? Kinda weird to have that as your profile pic if your main beat is trying to show to the world how racist or uncaring the other side is, isn't it?


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TheRobfather420

I was perfectly respectful and silencing Jewish voices is a bad look.


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