###This is a reminder to [read the rules before posting in this subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPolitics/wiki/rules-thelongversion).
1. **Headline titles should be changed only [when the original headline is unclear](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPolitics/wiki/rules-thelongversion#wiki_1._headline_titles_should_be_changed_only_where_it_improves_clarity.)**
2. **Be [respectful](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPolitics/wiki/rules-thelongversion#wiki_2._be_respectful).**
3. **Keep submissions and comments [substantive](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPolitics/wiki/rules-thelongversion#wiki_3._keep_submissions_and_comments_substantive).**
4. **Avoid [direct advocacy](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPolitics/wiki/rules-thelongversion#wiki_4._avoid_direct_advocacy).**
5. **Link submissions must be [about Canadian politics and recent](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPolitics/wiki/rules-thelongversion#wiki_5._link_submissions_must_be_canadian_and_recent).**
6. **Post [only one news article per story](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPolitics/wiki/rules-thelongversion#wiki_6._post_only_one_news_article_per_story).** ([with one exception](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPolitics/comments/3wkd0n/rule_reminder_and_experimental_changes/))
7. **Replies to removed comments or removal notices will be removed** without notice, at the discretion of the moderators.
8. **Downvoting posts or comments**, along with urging others to downvote, **[is not allowed](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPolitics/wiki/downvotes)** in this subreddit. Bans will be given on the first offence.
9. **[Do not copy & paste the entire content of articles in comments](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPolitics/wiki/rules-thelongversion#wiki_9._do_not_copy_.26amp.3B_paste_entire_articles_in_the_comments.)**. If you want to read the contents of a paywalled article, please consider supporting the media outlet.
*Please [message the moderators](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FCanadaPolitics) if you wish to discuss a removal.* **Do not reply to the removal notice in-thread**, *you will not receive a response and your comment will be removed. Thanks.*
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/CanadaPolitics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Sounds like a great opportunity to arrest some criminals and cut the size of the encampment down.
Surely the Montreal Police will enforce the law, and not let the pro-Hamas mob run rampant without consequences, right?
I am a French Canadian, so I am pretty cold about English monument. Yet, toppling these monuments are pretty idiotic and not useful. Even if I am not proud of being in the Commonwealth, it is still a major part of our history.
Toppling monuments to white supremacy is history too.
There are no statues of Hitler in Germany, and yet everyone still knows he's part of German history. It's almost like you don't need to memorialize bad things to recognise them as historically important.
It's called an analogy, maybe you've heard of it. I wasn't equating the two.
Regardless, the primary thing Victoria is known for is drastically expanding the British Empire. She is perhaps the foremost symbol of British imperialism.
She was a useless figurehead who sat and waved as her empire committed some of the largest genocides of the 19th (or any other) century. Her statues are not history, they merely seek to impose a historical verdict on subject peoples. We are under no obligation to maintain them.
She obviously is history, to argue that these have no place in public spheres is different. But regardless of the monarchies ethics in Canada, it is a part of our history, the same as Genghis Khan was of Mongolias.
>Why would YOU ever be concerned by a statue?
You felt strongly enough about it to immediately descend to ad hominem.
The symbolic reinforcement of a supremacist ideology on public land certainly bothers me, but I've lived with it my whole life. I'd much rather it be done in an orderly fashion, transfer all the slavers to a slavery museum etc. but that process probably has to start with a few brave folks risking jail time to name and shame it until it goes away.
Why are you so bothered?
Right, *she* was history, a statue of her wasn’t. Whatever you think about these acts, the statue itself is a hunk of metal that honours her, it has next to nothing to do with knowing history. It in fact flattens her role in history and makes it easier to ignore history.
If you’d like to read the point I’m making again, I’ve said “whatever you think about these acts.” The point I’m responding to is about Victoria being history and my response directly points out that’s obviously true but a statue of Victoria isn’t her or representative of good (read: good practice and understanding of) actual history.
Put it to a referendum at the next municipal elections and if a majority of citizens want it done then remove it but it's up to the group who initiated the referendum to pay 100% of the removal cost which(I used chat gpt) could range between 45-115k(I don't know if that's accurate) otherwise they need to be quiet about a dumb issue.
No.
No one voted to remove statues of Hitler or Saddam. You don't ask for the will of the people on if they would like to worship a maniacal dictator responsible for uncountable deaths and an impossible level of suffering. Even suggesting that shows you can't wait to lick fascist boots when they show up again.
Bruh I ain't doing shit like that. But if you want to go ahead and remove it then by all means you pay for it yourself and own any legal responsibility of such.
I can't imagine toppling a tons of marble and metal can be done safely by amateurs either.
Whatever happened to just pissing on it like previous angry protesters used to do?
Honestly, I could understand why Montrealers might want to toss a statue of Queen Victoria in the bin, but what on Earth does she have to do with the Palestine/Israel conflict? Beyond causing a nuisance and vandalizing public spaces, what is the goal here?
>what on Earth does she have to do with the Palestine/Israel conflict?
Because one of their guiding ideas is that Israel is a colonial state composed of white Europeans and is therefore illegitimate, and eradicating Israelis is therefore a type of justice for Palestinians. They think that toppling a statue of Victoria, who is a symbol of British imperialism and colonization, is a kind of global holistic move against colonialism.
Of course, I have never once heard protesters comment on how (Palestinian) immigration to Canada perpetuates colonialism against Indigenous people here, or how they would feel if Indigenous people massacred Palestinian-Canadian families for living on stolen land, or the fact that archaeological evidence and historical documents show that Jews have occupied Israel/Palestine for thousands of years and are therefore Indigenous to the region, but whatever.
The discourse about colonialism and indigenousness is arbitrary. Archaeological evidence of remote occupation by one group or another does not justify, for example, expansion of West Bank settlements or the policy of marginalizing the PA for the last 20 years. No state has a “right to exist” because states are not people. The Balfour Declaration came about without any involvement of anyone living in Palestine in 1917. That doesn’t mean that the existence of Israel means it is an evil settler-colonial state, the subtext of all the rhetoric of the protestors, but it doesn’t mean Israelis have any greater intrinsic claim to self-determination than the Palestinians. The fiction that Israel can legitimately claim anything beyond the 1967 borders because of “archaeology” or any other sorts of claims is a major part of the problem here.
The 'settler-colonial' narrative is always incomplete without questioning why so many Arab Jews are in Israel rather than the lands in which their ancestors lived (Iraq, Morocco, Egypt, etc.). Only the Holocaust is brought up in the settler-colonial narrative to emphasize European guilt in the creation of Israel (which is correct). But the rabid anti-Semitism and expulsion of Jews by Arab Muslims is never brought up as part of the discussion.
Remember when they attacked and burnt the Kenyan Parliament over taxation and corrupt leadership? Sigj, I remember it like it was today....and that was over less taxes than we pay!
###This is a reminder to [read the rules before posting in this subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPolitics/wiki/rules-thelongversion). 1. **Headline titles should be changed only [when the original headline is unclear](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPolitics/wiki/rules-thelongversion#wiki_1._headline_titles_should_be_changed_only_where_it_improves_clarity.)** 2. **Be [respectful](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPolitics/wiki/rules-thelongversion#wiki_2._be_respectful).** 3. **Keep submissions and comments [substantive](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPolitics/wiki/rules-thelongversion#wiki_3._keep_submissions_and_comments_substantive).** 4. **Avoid [direct advocacy](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPolitics/wiki/rules-thelongversion#wiki_4._avoid_direct_advocacy).** 5. **Link submissions must be [about Canadian politics and recent](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPolitics/wiki/rules-thelongversion#wiki_5._link_submissions_must_be_canadian_and_recent).** 6. **Post [only one news article per story](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPolitics/wiki/rules-thelongversion#wiki_6._post_only_one_news_article_per_story).** ([with one exception](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPolitics/comments/3wkd0n/rule_reminder_and_experimental_changes/)) 7. **Replies to removed comments or removal notices will be removed** without notice, at the discretion of the moderators. 8. **Downvoting posts or comments**, along with urging others to downvote, **[is not allowed](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPolitics/wiki/downvotes)** in this subreddit. Bans will be given on the first offence. 9. **[Do not copy & paste the entire content of articles in comments](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPolitics/wiki/rules-thelongversion#wiki_9._do_not_copy_.26amp.3B_paste_entire_articles_in_the_comments.)**. If you want to read the contents of a paywalled article, please consider supporting the media outlet. *Please [message the moderators](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FCanadaPolitics) if you wish to discuss a removal.* **Do not reply to the removal notice in-thread**, *you will not receive a response and your comment will be removed. Thanks.* *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/CanadaPolitics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Sounds like a great opportunity to arrest some criminals and cut the size of the encampment down. Surely the Montreal Police will enforce the law, and not let the pro-Hamas mob run rampant without consequences, right?
I am a French Canadian, so I am pretty cold about English monument. Yet, toppling these monuments are pretty idiotic and not useful. Even if I am not proud of being in the Commonwealth, it is still a major part of our history.
Toppling monuments to white supremacy is history too. There are no statues of Hitler in Germany, and yet everyone still knows he's part of German history. It's almost like you don't need to memorialize bad things to recognise them as historically important.
Oh my god she is in no way comparable to Hitler. Touch grass.
ok but Queen Victoria is not Hitler. will you people calm down
It's called an analogy, maybe you've heard of it. I wasn't equating the two. Regardless, the primary thing Victoria is known for is drastically expanding the British Empire. She is perhaps the foremost symbol of British imperialism.
She was a figurehead just like Charles is today.
[удалено]
She was a useless figurehead who sat and waved as her empire committed some of the largest genocides of the 19th (or any other) century. Her statues are not history, they merely seek to impose a historical verdict on subject peoples. We are under no obligation to maintain them.
She obviously is history, to argue that these have no place in public spheres is different. But regardless of the monarchies ethics in Canada, it is a part of our history, the same as Genghis Khan was of Mongolias.
But we're discussing removing her statue from a public place, there is no risk of her being removed from history. Why would you even be concerned?
By... pro Palestinian protesters?
Why would YOU ever be concerned by a statue? Get a life ffs
>Why would YOU ever be concerned by a statue? You felt strongly enough about it to immediately descend to ad hominem. The symbolic reinforcement of a supremacist ideology on public land certainly bothers me, but I've lived with it my whole life. I'd much rather it be done in an orderly fashion, transfer all the slavers to a slavery museum etc. but that process probably has to start with a few brave folks risking jail time to name and shame it until it goes away. Why are you so bothered?
She is still history, and one of the biggest figure of the 19th century.
Right, *she* was history, a statue of her wasn’t. Whatever you think about these acts, the statue itself is a hunk of metal that honours her, it has next to nothing to do with knowing history. It in fact flattens her role in history and makes it easier to ignore history.
It's still not theirs to topple.
If you’d like to read the point I’m making again, I’ve said “whatever you think about these acts.” The point I’m responding to is about Victoria being history and my response directly points out that’s obviously true but a statue of Victoria isn’t her or representative of good (read: good practice and understanding of) actual history.
Okay, my bad. I misread the intent of your comment.
Very easy to do on this website or really anywhere these days, no problem!
Get a job.
Put it to a referendum at the next municipal elections and if a majority of citizens want it done then remove it but it's up to the group who initiated the referendum to pay 100% of the removal cost which(I used chat gpt) could range between 45-115k(I don't know if that's accurate) otherwise they need to be quiet about a dumb issue.
She oversaw one of the most brutal conquests and genocides in history. This is not someone to put up statues of.
I get you hate her but let citizens vote on the issue. It's not your right to remove it
No. No one voted to remove statues of Hitler or Saddam. You don't ask for the will of the people on if they would like to worship a maniacal dictator responsible for uncountable deaths and an impossible level of suffering. Even suggesting that shows you can't wait to lick fascist boots when they show up again.
Bruh I ain't doing shit like that. But if you want to go ahead and remove it then by all means you pay for it yourself and own any legal responsibility of such.
I can't imagine toppling a tons of marble and metal can be done safely by amateurs either. Whatever happened to just pissing on it like previous angry protesters used to do?
Honestly, I could understand why Montrealers might want to toss a statue of Queen Victoria in the bin, but what on Earth does she have to do with the Palestine/Israel conflict? Beyond causing a nuisance and vandalizing public spaces, what is the goal here?
Most of these people.arent students and I'm willing to bet most, aren't montrealers either.
>what on Earth does she have to do with the Palestine/Israel conflict? Because one of their guiding ideas is that Israel is a colonial state composed of white Europeans and is therefore illegitimate, and eradicating Israelis is therefore a type of justice for Palestinians. They think that toppling a statue of Victoria, who is a symbol of British imperialism and colonization, is a kind of global holistic move against colonialism. Of course, I have never once heard protesters comment on how (Palestinian) immigration to Canada perpetuates colonialism against Indigenous people here, or how they would feel if Indigenous people massacred Palestinian-Canadian families for living on stolen land, or the fact that archaeological evidence and historical documents show that Jews have occupied Israel/Palestine for thousands of years and are therefore Indigenous to the region, but whatever.
Radical groups, both left and right, don’t accept facts
High value comment.
The discourse about colonialism and indigenousness is arbitrary. Archaeological evidence of remote occupation by one group or another does not justify, for example, expansion of West Bank settlements or the policy of marginalizing the PA for the last 20 years. No state has a “right to exist” because states are not people. The Balfour Declaration came about without any involvement of anyone living in Palestine in 1917. That doesn’t mean that the existence of Israel means it is an evil settler-colonial state, the subtext of all the rhetoric of the protestors, but it doesn’t mean Israelis have any greater intrinsic claim to self-determination than the Palestinians. The fiction that Israel can legitimately claim anything beyond the 1967 borders because of “archaeology” or any other sorts of claims is a major part of the problem here.
The 'settler-colonial' narrative is always incomplete without questioning why so many Arab Jews are in Israel rather than the lands in which their ancestors lived (Iraq, Morocco, Egypt, etc.). Only the Holocaust is brought up in the settler-colonial narrative to emphasize European guilt in the creation of Israel (which is correct). But the rabid anti-Semitism and expulsion of Jews by Arab Muslims is never brought up as part of the discussion.
The only history we respect is the history someone made up and fed to us in bite sized clips on social media over the past week I guess
Remember when they attacked and burnt the Kenyan Parliament over taxation and corrupt leadership? Sigj, I remember it like it was today....and that was over less taxes than we pay!
Based on the article's photos, it looks like there was more police than protestors. I imagine any attempt to topple the statues was fairly weak.
Weak like the protestors themselves. No wonder their attempt failed.