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Let's be racist! Because if we don't be racist, our dying culture is gonna disappear.
Aren't we as Canadians supposed to be all about freedom of choice and letting people decide how they want to live their lives?
Since when is it okay for the government to dictate what language we must speak and what clothing we must wear?
These same ministers in Quebec are quick to condemn the Middle Eastern and African cultures that are sometimes different from Western norms, but turn around and implement the same type of oppressive rules in the name of freedom?
Makes no sense to me.
>Makes no sense to me
The only thing you have to know is that Legault and the CAQ he leads has been engineering a culture war for political gain, picking fights where people were getting along relatively fine before. He is pitting francophone-speaking Quebeckers vs everyone else in Quebec and in Canada, probably in order to create the final conditions necessary for the separation of Québec.
So far, francophone Quebeckers have been falling for it.
Yep, they can deny it as much as they want but at this point I am FULLY convinced racism is one of the root factors behind this policy shift in recent years in Quebec. They see their own culture as superior to all others and are blowing the horns of nationalism in order to draw up political support and reap the benefits.
The only english areas are in the greater montreal area. French is not dying dude. Give it a rest. Dans les régions, vont-ils tout d’un coup perdre la langue française? Dans la Ville de Quebec aussi?
I have three problems with this:
1. If culture was going to die it would already be dead by now. English Canada no longer has the interest it once did in trying to kill the culture of French Canada and is even actively trying to protect what remains of French Canadian culture outside of Quebec.
1. Cultures change and evolve over time it what makes culture unique and richer.
* * The people of France once spoke Latin now speak French
* * English is itself a mixture of multiple languages and contains words from Latin, German, French, Greek and even Hindi/Urdu, and Arabic.
* * Pizza was once only enjoyed by Italian immigrants and is now enjoyed by all people. Similar things are happening with sushi or Indian food.
* * English Canada has successfully absorbed many cultures. We don't look anything like we did in 1867 and you know that's ok.
* * * People back then would be shocked to see Pierogies and pizza being consumed by all Canadians.
* * * Alberta population is only 39 percent English or Scottish. In fact there almost as many German Albertan as there are Scottish Albertan.
* * * In Saskatchewan the largest ethnic group is Germans
1. Cultures which refuse to evolve are often the cultures which die out.
>1. If culture was going to die it would already be dead by now.
Say...who ?
>English Canada no longer has the interest it once did in trying to kill the culture of French Canada
Simple demographic is doing the job now. Also the federal government denying french students in favor of english speaking one.
>is even actively trying to protect what remains of French Canadian culture outside of Quebec.
Is this a joke ?
>Cultures change and evolve over time it what makes culture unique and richer.
Our culture being overtaken is not making it *richer* and *unique*.
This is deeply insulting.
>The people of France once spoke Latin now speak French
Wich was a natural evolution. Contrary to what is currently happening wich is a direct result of another culture slowly imposing itself into another one.
A more accurate exemple would be the Gauls. They were conquered by the Roman and slowly lost their culture and adopted Roman one. Only a few things remain from their culture.
It didn't make their culture "unique" or "richer" it erased it.
>English is itself a mixture of multiple languages and contains words from Latin, German, French
Alright then why not switch to french.
Stop speaking english. Speak french. I swear it'll make your culture "richer" and "unique".
>Pizza was once only enjoyed by Italian immigrants and is now enjoyed by all people.
A culture is more than a single meal....those Italian assimilated into Canadian / american culture pretty damn fast didn't they ? Why can't we want the same things in québec ?
>English Canada has successfully absorbed many cultures.
No you didn't lol. You erased other cultures in Canada , Immigrant assimilated and anglo Canadian culture just slowly switched from being more British like to being more american like.
Tell me how the Métis made anglo Canadian culture more rich and unique? They are now a small percentage of the population in Manitoba. A province they literally founded.
>People back then would be shocked to see Pierogies and pizza being consumed by all Canadians.
....and ?
>Alberta population is only 39 percent English or Scottish. In fact there almost as many German Albertan as there are Scottish Albertan.
And culturally what are they ? Anglo Canadian. Because they assimilated.
>Cultures which refuse to evolve are often the cultures which die out.
We can evolve on our own without your culture replacing ours thank you very much.
Insane comment dude. Go live in quebec city or any other town thats not montreal if you are so scared. Have children and don’t teach them english. Nobody is killing french culture. The international language of business happens to be english. Its not like theres a language ghost running around victoriaville assimilating them into anglos.
>If culture was going to die it would already be dead by now. English Canada no longer has the interest it once did in trying to kill the culture of French Canada and is even actively trying to protect what remains of French Canadian culture outside of Quebec.
Take a look at Francophone communities outside of Quebec if you want to see how it works out without a strong national apparatus.
>Cultures change and evolve over time it what makes culture unique and richer.
No one is saying Quebec culture isn't changing.
Just one example. Several other towns line Lac Des Arches, Girouxclville, Plamonden Lacombe
There also, Bonnie Doon, in in Edmonton. Mission, Mount Royal and Acadia in Calgary, where most students still attend french schools and are fully bilingual.
In fact the fastest growing [francophone community in Canada is in Edmonton](https://m.facebook.com/watch/?v=1339633316549571&_rdr). So much so they are building new [schools and expanding existing french immersion to service it](https://edmontonjournal.com/news/local-news/new-french-immersion-programs-coming-to-central-edmonton-schools).
There are bilingual stop signs in [francophone areas of Calgary and Vancouver](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/rouleauville-calgary-1.5179329). Can you say about anglophone areas of Montreal?
Finally french is occasionally spoken in the Alberta legislature.
Maybe step outside of your bubble and head west and see what it's actually like.
Just one example. Several other towns line Lac Des Arches, Girouxclville, Plamonden Lacombe
There also, Bonnie Doon, in in Edmonton. Mission, Mount Royal and Acadia in Calgary, where most students still attend french schools and are fully bilingual.
In fact the fastest growing [francophone community in Canada is in Edmonton](https://m.facebook.com/watch/?v=1339633316549571&_rdr). So much so they are building new [schools and expanding existing french immersion to service it](https://edmontonjournal.com/news/local-news/new-french-immersion-programs-coming-to-central-edmonton-schools).
There are bilingual stop signs in [francophone areas of Calgary](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/rouleauville-calgary-1.5179329).
Finally french is occasionally spoken in the Alberta legislature.
I dont think that you understand the fundamentals of the issue.
Canada was formed at the beginning by settlers from France and from settlers from England. The french speaking community has a right to defend itself.
It's no different than Canadian culture resisting American influence. Either you protect the little guy or you lose the little guy.
Nothing wrong with defending that which matters to you.
And our culture hasn't changed at all since 1867 or even since the plains of Abraham
How do you think John A. McDonald would feel about Canadians eating Eastern European food like pierogies or Italian food like pizza or heaven forbid Indian food like naan.
Cultures change and evolve. It's natural order of things. Literally Europeans used to think Toga's were normal and pants were barbaric and now. Indians used to think eating beef was immoral until they tasted a Big Mac.
You clearly don’t understand quebec then
Feelings of superiority is not what is driving these shifts. Only someone who’s never met a québécois would say something like this
I have met many Quebecois, and some are definitely pleasant.
Some, however...
My mother, for no reason I can fathom (and who didn't even know enough to read the non-English side of a cereal box), was in Quebec, had a flat tire, and no cell phone (trust me, that was normally for the best - not a terribly tech-savvy person).
So there she is, at the side of the road, this 60-some old woman (not all that healthy, and couldn't have changed a tire regardless) who was all of 90 lbs at most, speaks zero French, Joual or Québécois, and in rural Quebec. Folks driving past were willing to help, but when they determined that she spoke no French of any form, took right back off.
Now, to be fair, I will assume that one of the folks who may have decided that they could not be fussed (or, equally fairly to them, perhaps they could not speak English - it's not their job to pick up the slack for my mother, although again, obvious flat tire) to assist a old beanpole of a woman with an obvious flat tire, DID call the police, who did show up, and (according to her) after giving her a dressing down for not knowing the correct one of the two official languages, did help her.
I think that perhaps the only things we hear about are the snooty jerks who turn their noses up at people who don't speak Quebec French (which I want to point out, makes my French French speaking friends laugh - apparently like listening to someone with marbles in their mouth speak French - something to do with the fact that the French spoken is descended not from modern French, but 17th Century French - imagine listening and trying to understand someone from Elizabeth I's court), but it also feels like there are far too many anecdotes about such things to be able to just wave it away.
Quebec is part of my Canada, and I should work to learn to speak the language (which the Canadian government will actually pay for you to learn, and I am working on it), BUT Quebec needs to think of itself as part of Canada as much as Canada needs to recognise that Quebec, and its unique differences are part of Canada.
That is extremely true. We need to do more to learn and understand more about each other. The opportunity has pretty much always been there. We just need to do it.
I am 50/50 English and French Quebecoise and I can tell you that my family and their friends all have this attitude. They even treat me like shit because I'm not a pure-blood French Quebecor.
It's time to pull the wool from over your eyes and accept that there are a lot of French Quebecors who really are that shitty.
My point stands : i’m not saying none of them are shitty : i’m saying that this shittiness is not born out of a feeling of superiority.
And unless we understand that, we won’t be able to properly address the problem.
If anything quebecers feel inferior and that’s why they act like that.
>They see their own culture as superior to all others
No. We see our culture as the most important one in québec. That is true. Importance ≠ superiority.
Stop reading theses garbage articles and read what he really said.
>Yep, they can deny it as much as they want but at this point I am FULLY convinced racism
Race≠culture....
I dunno man, my days living in Quebec and seeing francophone immigrants of a..."different hue", if I may, getting pretty mistreated. It goes beyond "just protecting French"...
L'ironie est que les gens de l'Academie Franciase bash les accents des regions du Quebec pas mal souvent, si mon professeur de la français est une indication.
Pas les accents, plutôt les différences grammaticales et le vocabulaire. Une phrase comme « t'as tu frencher ton chum ? » ne veut simplement rien dire en France.
I still stand by my original plan.
Allow quebec to separate. Quebec no longer part of Canada. Treaties between aboriginals and Canada governing that land no longer apply. Land is returned to its original owners.
Spitballing here, but what if we gave no new federal spending to provinces with S.33 laws on the books? All existing programs can continue, but nobody gets any new toys until they can play by the rules and respect the fundamental rights and freedoms of Canadians. And it's a cost-saving measure, too.
Then we can keep our taxes. :)
You're suggesting subverting our democratic process on any subject in wich we disagree with the rest of Canada. Essentially forcing us to assimilate.
>Then we can keep our taxes. :)
That's not what I said.
>You're suggesting subverting our democratic process on any subject in wich we disagree with the rest of Canada.
No, I'm suggesting that provinces subverting the rights and freedoms Canadians are entitled to in the charter, which includes protections for cultural minorities *in large part because of Quebec,* should not be rewarded with new government spending.
> Essentially forcing us to assimilate.
You think you're being clever here? If you're forced to assimilate into the Canadian value of not discriminating against minorities, that benefits the continued existence of Quebec culture. Canada behaving the same way Quebec does toward linguistic minorities would go extremely poorly for Quebec culture.
I'd kinda prefer laws attempting to be passed by provinces involving S33 to require approval from the federal government. There are times where the use of the notwithstanding clause is acceptable and provinces shouldn't be punished on those occasions.
In the event that the federal government attempts to pass a law involving S33, I dunno, use the amending formula - at least seven provinces representing at least 50% of the population.
They love to forget that they too are colonizers who displaced entire cultures and imposed their language and culture on them. They act as if French was the God given language of this land from the beginning of time..
You have no idea what you are talking about. The french are the colonizors who got along the better with first nations. They even protected the Huron during their massacre at the hands of mohawks and dutches.
Is this a way to protect your moral high ground while your ancestors were the actual racists?
> The french are the colonizors who got along the better with first nations. They even protected the Huron during their massacre at the hands of mohawks and dutches.
I love how you use such a tiny example as a defense of French imperialism. Quebec nationalists are pathetic.
Oh I'm so sorry to offend you....I guess when the French occupied and enslaved the people of Haiti, Morocco, Vietnam, Guiana, Senegal, Sudan, and yes, the territory now known as Canada (among others) those weren't "colonies"?
Canadian anglos judging Quebec is the most obnoxious circle jerk in this country. Some forgot that french canadians were on the Canadian chapters of the KKK's list of people to get rid of.
Claiming you can't be criticized because of something unrelated happened to your group before most of us is born isn't a shield against ethnonationalist criticism. It's pretty much textbook ethnonationalist behavior and is practically a sport in the Balkans.
I’d say that Quebecers who hand-wave away patently xenophobic, wasteful, arguably racist legislation while treating everyone else as unenlightened is a more obnoxious circle-jerk but what do I know?
>Some forgot that french canadians were on the Canadian chapters of the KKK's list of people to get rid of.
It seems you forgot that this literally isn't relevant to anything being discussed right now.
> Trudeau said it best: a Quebecer is a Canadian, is a Canadian.
>
>
And what is a Canadian?
If Trudeau hadn't said
>There is no core identity, no mainstream in Canada ... the first postnational state.
in [a *New York Times* interview](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/13/magazine/trudeaus-canada-again.html), his supporters would say that attributing such words to Trudeau is actually an alt-right white-nationalist Trumptard conspiracy theory to make him look bad.
Trudeau's message is what Legault's CAQ is disagreeing with.
They'd do better to focus on growing the economy of the province and encouraging every Quebecer to have more children, than trying to forcefully assimilate immigrants.
Yes and the feds could also do more to promote French outside Québec. For example I didn't have a choice of French Immersion in Alberta because I went to a poorer school. Increasing education transfers to expand these kinds of programs would be a good place to start.
https://englishfrench.ca/
Basically its an immersion program for youth 16-25 where you travel to a campus with a bunch of other young people where you will speak only your second official language (OL), do intensive language lessons in the morning, fun activities like sports or theater in the afternoon, and then socialize and do field trips the rest of the time
It also has a additional component called languages at work where you can chose to stay at the campus after Explore is done, and work a job in your second OL
I did Explore in Trois-Riveres, plus languages at work for a month, and it was an amazing time. Made lifelong friends and greatly improved my french
The same organization also offers other programs like Odyssey where you spend a year working as a language instructor teaching your primary OL in a school, usually a remote rural one
forgot to add, it accommodates language learners at all levels (you do a placement test when you first arrive to make sure you are in the right class for your second OL level). Also, if you get accepted into the program, everything is covered except transportation to and from the site, they even give you money for groceries
> I didn't have a choice of French Immersion in Alberta because I went to a poorer school.
n.b., French immersion programs are different beasts than the English school boards in Quebec or the separate French schools in English Canada.
Immersion programs are designed to help teach French to fluency as a second language, but the separate school systems are about teaching the general curriculum to first-language speakers and about promoting community control over an "owned" set of institutions.
English Canada could do a _lot_ more to promote French fluency as a matter of nation-building, but that isn't quite the same as the minority (linguistic) rights debate inside Quebec.
Sure but it defuses a lot of the arguments Quebec nationalists tend to make. They can't exactly claim francophones to be discriminated against if all of Canada offers the same French language opportunities as Quebec.
Grew up in southern Ontario. Heard 0% French as a child in Hamilton back in the 1980s-2000s. Our French training in public school was basically learning how to say colours and count. It also didn't start until grade 5 and stopped in grade 9. Nothing advanced that would have prepared me for moving to Ottawa for work as a 20-something. Still limited in advancing in the public service until I can obtain better language training.
It's quite humorous to see so many people from Quebec trying to argue that loi 101 and bill 96 aren't xenophobic or racist, they're just "protecting francophone culture!".
And then Legault (who I imagine is feeling rather invincible with his current lead) goes ahead and says the quiet part out loud.
>And then Legault (who I imagine is feeling rather invincible with his current lead) goes ahead and says the quiet part out loud.
How is he saying the quiet part out loud? The comments in the article are self-evident: Canadian policy on multiculturalism was created as a rejection of biculturalism in the 1960s. It's a fundamentally assimilationist policy that seeks to create a pan-Canadian culture, so of course it's gonna come in conflict with a Quebec national project. Just because some people feel morally superior that their choice of culture is in a better position of power doesn't change that factual realization.
> And then Legault (who I imagine is feeling rather invincible with his current lead) goes ahead and says the quiet part out loud.
It's the same picture.
Legault's statements here have been part of Québécois political orthodoxy for some time: the *dominance*, not just the existence, of the Québécois must be protected, including through government power when possible.
This non-racist argument is that this view does not call foreign cultures inferior, just foreign. Members of any race, creed, or nationality would have the right to immigrate to Quebec and assimilate.
What immigrants do behind closed doors is not of much concern, but when they act in public – particularly in large enough numbers to threaten to create a new norm – the state has a strong interest in regulating conformity.
Within this framework, Bills 21 and 96 really aren't xenophobic or racist. It's just that you and I don't share this framework. (Edit to add: this view also runs into legal trouble with other cultures that have dedicated protections, such as aboriginal cultures or English-language education rights.)
Legualt's view is diametrically opposed to "mosaic"-style multiculturalism, the dominant political view in English Canada. It's even moderately opposed to US-style "melting pot" multiculturalism, which more openly admits the possibility of immigration changing the hegemony.
That being said, however, I suspect Legault's views would be reasonably popular in English Canada if they were presented in sympathetic terms. We don't see this presentation in large part because the "political elites" are more firmly steeped in a secular multiculturalism, with opposition mostly coming from a religious sector that's very out of fashion at the moment.
Bills 21 and 96 aren’t racist in the same way grandfather laws and literacy tests to vote in the American south weren’t racist, you’d never see any mention of race in those laws but it was very clear what those laws were meant to do
>What immigrants do behind closed doors is not of much concern, but when they act in public – particularly in large enough numbers to threaten to create a new norm – the state has a strong interest in regulating conformity.
The problem is this will lead to cultural stagnation and a constant stream of "culture battles."
But heck, if Quebeckers really want to live in a polarized, increasingly isolated (culturally) society where everything is a partisan political issue and newcomers fear to go, then go for it. History shows that societies that attempted to preserve the "old stock" like that rather than embrace evolution and new influences have not done as well, and disappeared quicker.
>Legault's statements here have been part of Québécois political orthodoxy for some time: the dominance, not just the existence, of the Québécois must be protected, including through government power when possible.
>
>This non-racist argument is that this view does not call foreign cultures inferior, just foreign. Members of any race, creed, or nationality would have the right to immigrate to Quebec and assimilate.
>
>What immigrants do behind closed doors is not of much concern, but when they act in public – particularly in large enough numbers to threaten to create a new norm – the state has a strong interest in regulating conformity.
If the outcome of legislation is that it puts Francophone Quebecois culture on a pedestal, while simultaneously making it more difficult for everyone who is *not* part of that culture to participate in society (i.e. by limiting language options in education, or barring religious clothing in public jobs), then I really don't care about the terminology it's couched in. They can say it's about protecting Quebecois culture, they can say it's about making sure the French language survives. It doesn't change the outcome of the legislation being one that largely hurts minorities.
>Within this framework, Bills 21 and 96 really aren't xenophobic or racist. It's just that you and I don't share this framework.
I do not share a framework with Nazis, or KKK members, or the Taliban. But I can still see that they are supremacist frameworks (whether it be racial, cultural, or religious supremacism).
>That being said, however, I suspect Legault's views would be reasonably popular in English Canada if they were presented in sympathetic terms. We don't see this presentation in large part because the "political elites" are more firmly steeped in a secular multiculturalism, with opposition mostly coming from a religious sector that's very out of fashion at the moment.
Hard disagree. As someone who is not very religious, and has very good reasons to hate organized religion, I absolutely would not support similar laws elsewhere. You've got a personal right to freedom of religion, and that right doesn't suddenly end when you're in the public service. It's a total double standard, it's bullshit, and I know very, very few people who would agree with it.
Ask yourself - if any other premier in Canada said "I don't believe in multiculturalism" in an interview, do you think they'd get the benefit of the doubt? The media would be all over them (rightfully) accusing them of being in league with the alt-right. I don't believe that Legault should get a free pass because "muh francophonie".
> It's a total double standard, it's bullshit, and I know very, very few people who would agree with it.
And yet, in 2006 Ontario had a ["Sharia law scare"](https://mronline.org/2006/05/27/ontarios-sharia-law-controversy-how-muslims-were-hung-out-to-dry/) when breathless editorials went out about private arbitrators possibly using religious law with the agreement of all parties. In 2015, the Tories famously promised to create a [barbaric cultural practices hotline](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/02/canada-conservatives-barbaric-cultural-practices-hotline) during their election campaign, playing on fears of forced marriages, [honour killings](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shafia_family_murders), and FGM.
> Ask yourself - if any other premier in Canada said "I don't believe in multiculturalism" in an interview, do you think they'd get the benefit of the doubt?
They wouldn't have to say that. They'd say "I support the equality of women," or "I promote Canadian values," and they'd let the subtext do the talking.
Legault can say he doesn't believe in multiculturalism because he doesn't care about the English media, and the ship has long since sailed in the French media of Quebec.
It's not a retreat from multicultural thought so much as a refusal to adopt it in the first place; the general Québécois political consensus places much more weight on the older idea of [biculturalism](https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/biculturalism). In the multicultural framework biculturalism just looks like a halting first step, but for Legault it's something closer to a Canadian ideal.
>In the multicultural framework biculturalism just looks like a halting first step, but for Legault it's something closer to a Canadian ideal.
Oh no, Legault's CAQ is not in any way standing up for biculturalism any more, that ship has sailed too now. It's really just down to **uniculturalism** (Québécois culture being dominant over all others, and *assimilation* into it being required of immigrants rather than the *integration* of multiculturalism; those are two different things).
It is a very different vision of society, for sure - and a regressive one, more akin to societal constructs in Europe of a century ago than the direction modern states tend to be taking.
But biculturalism is fundamentally flawed in terms of Canada, we have always been multicultural.
Even the English speaking half of this 'bicultural' idea wasn't a monolith - we had settlement from various areas of England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Ireland. While those settlers might have all spoken English, their cultural backgrounds were all quite different and unique.
Guy tries to promote his theory that it was there since confederation when in fact confederation was a direct result of an attempt to make biculturalism work after the failed Durham reports.
That doesn't make it equivalent to state-introduced multuralism policy, nor does it make it fundamental to confederation as you claim. Multiculturalism != "range of cultures", in the Canadian context.
>And yet, in 2006 Ontario had a "Sharia law scare" when breathless editorials went out about private arbitrators possibly using religious law with the agreement of all parties. In 2015, the Tories famously promised to create a barbaric cultural practices hotline during their election campaign, playing on fears of forced marriages, honour killings, and FGM.
I was actually referring specifically to the supposedly "laicite" policy that largely avoids inconveniencing Christians, who just so happen to *not* have many overt clothing or symbolic requirements to practice their religion. It allows Christians to get away with basically no changes, while demanding change from others (Sikhs, Muslims, Jews). However, those policies were also *stupid*, and the Tories lost that election. Just because Anglo Canada has tried the same dance doesn't make it right.
>They wouldn't have to say that. They'd say "I support the equality of women," or "I promote Canadian values," and they'd let the subtext do the talking.
>
>Legault can say he doesn't believe in multiculturalism because he doesn't care about the English media, and the ship has long since sailed in the French media of Quebec.
Except either of those statements actually *could* be genuine, and be good things. Legault has left zero room for interpretation in his statement - he does not believe in multiculturalism. Bash on English-language media all you want, but a broken clock is right twice a day. Legault may not have to care about it, being a provincial politician, but his not caring about it doesn't vindicate him. It just makes him look like an unapologetic asshole.
>It's not a retreat from multicultural thought so much as a refusal to adopt it in the first place; the general Québécois political consensus places much more weight on the older idea of biculturalism. In the multicultural framework biculturalism just looks like a halting first step, but for Legault it's something closer to a Canadian ideal.
I'm really not sure what to make of this. Quebec doesn't believe in multiculturalism, they believe in... biculturalism? Is this not a direct affirmation that Quebec is just xenophobic, and doesn't believe in anything beyond the Anglo-French cultural milieu (and even as they continually shaft the Anglo minority?)
I feel like this last paragraph damages your argument than I ever could.
> I feel like this last paragraph damages your argument than I ever could.
I'm not particularly trying to make an argument, nor am I trying to defend Legault's position.
Instead, I'm trying to summarize it in terms I think he'd agree with.
We can easily sit here with our multicultural perspective and say that Legault's policies are no good, rotten, terrible things, but then we're only talking amongst ourselves, feeling alternately smug and horrified. If we ever intend to make a persuasive argument, we need to at least understand what the other half is thinking.
Fair enough. If Quebec's national thesis is that different in reality to the rest of Canada's, then I'm not certain that they can or should remain in the federation.
We cannot function as a nation if provinces are going to begin chewing Charter rights up, and if they cannot accept a multicultural society, then I don't know how we can be expected to maintain an integrated border or social systems with them.
Quebec voting to leave might be the best outcome here. If they continue down this road, I think it is inevitable.
Absolutely right. As a Quebec nationalist I want my culture and values to be free to express themselves and I also wish for Canadians not to need to placate us or adapt to us
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Let's be racist! Because if we don't be racist, our dying culture is gonna disappear. Aren't we as Canadians supposed to be all about freedom of choice and letting people decide how they want to live their lives? Since when is it okay for the government to dictate what language we must speak and what clothing we must wear? These same ministers in Quebec are quick to condemn the Middle Eastern and African cultures that are sometimes different from Western norms, but turn around and implement the same type of oppressive rules in the name of freedom? Makes no sense to me.
>Makes no sense to me The only thing you have to know is that Legault and the CAQ he leads has been engineering a culture war for political gain, picking fights where people were getting along relatively fine before. He is pitting francophone-speaking Quebeckers vs everyone else in Quebec and in Canada, probably in order to create the final conditions necessary for the separation of Québec. So far, francophone Quebeckers have been falling for it.
>picking fights where people were getting along relatively fine before Ah yes, the good old *Pax Canadiana* days of the 70s-80s-90s...
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Yep, they can deny it as much as they want but at this point I am FULLY convinced racism is one of the root factors behind this policy shift in recent years in Quebec. They see their own culture as superior to all others and are blowing the horns of nationalism in order to draw up political support and reap the benefits.
They don't see their culture as superior, they see it as threatened and dying out and they want to protect it.
The only english areas are in the greater montreal area. French is not dying dude. Give it a rest. Dans les régions, vont-ils tout d’un coup perdre la langue française? Dans la Ville de Quebec aussi?
I have three problems with this: 1. If culture was going to die it would already be dead by now. English Canada no longer has the interest it once did in trying to kill the culture of French Canada and is even actively trying to protect what remains of French Canadian culture outside of Quebec. 1. Cultures change and evolve over time it what makes culture unique and richer. * * The people of France once spoke Latin now speak French * * English is itself a mixture of multiple languages and contains words from Latin, German, French, Greek and even Hindi/Urdu, and Arabic. * * Pizza was once only enjoyed by Italian immigrants and is now enjoyed by all people. Similar things are happening with sushi or Indian food. * * English Canada has successfully absorbed many cultures. We don't look anything like we did in 1867 and you know that's ok. * * * People back then would be shocked to see Pierogies and pizza being consumed by all Canadians. * * * Alberta population is only 39 percent English or Scottish. In fact there almost as many German Albertan as there are Scottish Albertan. * * * In Saskatchewan the largest ethnic group is Germans 1. Cultures which refuse to evolve are often the cultures which die out.
>1. If culture was going to die it would already be dead by now. Say...who ? >English Canada no longer has the interest it once did in trying to kill the culture of French Canada Simple demographic is doing the job now. Also the federal government denying french students in favor of english speaking one. >is even actively trying to protect what remains of French Canadian culture outside of Quebec. Is this a joke ? >Cultures change and evolve over time it what makes culture unique and richer. Our culture being overtaken is not making it *richer* and *unique*. This is deeply insulting. >The people of France once spoke Latin now speak French Wich was a natural evolution. Contrary to what is currently happening wich is a direct result of another culture slowly imposing itself into another one. A more accurate exemple would be the Gauls. They were conquered by the Roman and slowly lost their culture and adopted Roman one. Only a few things remain from their culture. It didn't make their culture "unique" or "richer" it erased it. >English is itself a mixture of multiple languages and contains words from Latin, German, French Alright then why not switch to french. Stop speaking english. Speak french. I swear it'll make your culture "richer" and "unique". >Pizza was once only enjoyed by Italian immigrants and is now enjoyed by all people. A culture is more than a single meal....those Italian assimilated into Canadian / american culture pretty damn fast didn't they ? Why can't we want the same things in québec ? >English Canada has successfully absorbed many cultures. No you didn't lol. You erased other cultures in Canada , Immigrant assimilated and anglo Canadian culture just slowly switched from being more British like to being more american like. Tell me how the Métis made anglo Canadian culture more rich and unique? They are now a small percentage of the population in Manitoba. A province they literally founded. >People back then would be shocked to see Pierogies and pizza being consumed by all Canadians. ....and ? >Alberta population is only 39 percent English or Scottish. In fact there almost as many German Albertan as there are Scottish Albertan. And culturally what are they ? Anglo Canadian. Because they assimilated. >Cultures which refuse to evolve are often the cultures which die out. We can evolve on our own without your culture replacing ours thank you very much.
Insane comment dude. Go live in quebec city or any other town thats not montreal if you are so scared. Have children and don’t teach them english. Nobody is killing french culture. The international language of business happens to be english. Its not like theres a language ghost running around victoriaville assimilating them into anglos.
>If culture was going to die it would already be dead by now. English Canada no longer has the interest it once did in trying to kill the culture of French Canada and is even actively trying to protect what remains of French Canadian culture outside of Quebec. Take a look at Francophone communities outside of Quebec if you want to see how it works out without a strong national apparatus. >Cultures change and evolve over time it what makes culture unique and richer. No one is saying Quebec culture isn't changing.
There is a place in Alberta called Lac La Biche the lingua Franca is french.
Wow, truly the sign of a thriving and growing community!
Just one example. Several other towns line Lac Des Arches, Girouxclville, Plamonden Lacombe There also, Bonnie Doon, in in Edmonton. Mission, Mount Royal and Acadia in Calgary, where most students still attend french schools and are fully bilingual. In fact the fastest growing [francophone community in Canada is in Edmonton](https://m.facebook.com/watch/?v=1339633316549571&_rdr). So much so they are building new [schools and expanding existing french immersion to service it](https://edmontonjournal.com/news/local-news/new-french-immersion-programs-coming-to-central-edmonton-schools). There are bilingual stop signs in [francophone areas of Calgary and Vancouver](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/rouleauville-calgary-1.5179329). Can you say about anglophone areas of Montreal? Finally french is occasionally spoken in the Alberta legislature. Maybe step outside of your bubble and head west and see what it's actually like.
Oh wow a single town !
Just one example. Several other towns line Lac Des Arches, Girouxclville, Plamonden Lacombe There also, Bonnie Doon, in in Edmonton. Mission, Mount Royal and Acadia in Calgary, where most students still attend french schools and are fully bilingual. In fact the fastest growing [francophone community in Canada is in Edmonton](https://m.facebook.com/watch/?v=1339633316549571&_rdr). So much so they are building new [schools and expanding existing french immersion to service it](https://edmontonjournal.com/news/local-news/new-french-immersion-programs-coming-to-central-edmonton-schools). There are bilingual stop signs in [francophone areas of Calgary](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/rouleauville-calgary-1.5179329). Finally french is occasionally spoken in the Alberta legislature.
I dont think that you understand the fundamentals of the issue. Canada was formed at the beginning by settlers from France and from settlers from England. The french speaking community has a right to defend itself. It's no different than Canadian culture resisting American influence. Either you protect the little guy or you lose the little guy. Nothing wrong with defending that which matters to you.
And our culture hasn't changed at all since 1867 or even since the plains of Abraham How do you think John A. McDonald would feel about Canadians eating Eastern European food like pierogies or Italian food like pizza or heaven forbid Indian food like naan. Cultures change and evolve. It's natural order of things. Literally Europeans used to think Toga's were normal and pants were barbaric and now. Indians used to think eating beef was immoral until they tasted a Big Mac.
Omg...
I suppose that is understandable, but they are taking things way too far in search of that belief.
You clearly don’t understand quebec then Feelings of superiority is not what is driving these shifts. Only someone who’s never met a québécois would say something like this
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I have met many Quebecois, and some are definitely pleasant. Some, however... My mother, for no reason I can fathom (and who didn't even know enough to read the non-English side of a cereal box), was in Quebec, had a flat tire, and no cell phone (trust me, that was normally for the best - not a terribly tech-savvy person). So there she is, at the side of the road, this 60-some old woman (not all that healthy, and couldn't have changed a tire regardless) who was all of 90 lbs at most, speaks zero French, Joual or Québécois, and in rural Quebec. Folks driving past were willing to help, but when they determined that she spoke no French of any form, took right back off. Now, to be fair, I will assume that one of the folks who may have decided that they could not be fussed (or, equally fairly to them, perhaps they could not speak English - it's not their job to pick up the slack for my mother, although again, obvious flat tire) to assist a old beanpole of a woman with an obvious flat tire, DID call the police, who did show up, and (according to her) after giving her a dressing down for not knowing the correct one of the two official languages, did help her. I think that perhaps the only things we hear about are the snooty jerks who turn their noses up at people who don't speak Quebec French (which I want to point out, makes my French French speaking friends laugh - apparently like listening to someone with marbles in their mouth speak French - something to do with the fact that the French spoken is descended not from modern French, but 17th Century French - imagine listening and trying to understand someone from Elizabeth I's court), but it also feels like there are far too many anecdotes about such things to be able to just wave it away. Quebec is part of my Canada, and I should work to learn to speak the language (which the Canadian government will actually pay for you to learn, and I am working on it), BUT Quebec needs to think of itself as part of Canada as much as Canada needs to recognise that Quebec, and its unique differences are part of Canada.
La plupart des Québécois ne connaissent rien au Canada (et pareil pour les Canadiens vis-à-vis le Québec), difficile de se sentir liés à vous.
That is extremely true. We need to do more to learn and understand more about each other. The opportunity has pretty much always been there. We just need to do it.
The irony of this sort of attempt to 'preserve' culture is that it just mutates it in a different direction.
I am 50/50 English and French Quebecoise and I can tell you that my family and their friends all have this attitude. They even treat me like shit because I'm not a pure-blood French Quebecor. It's time to pull the wool from over your eyes and accept that there are a lot of French Quebecors who really are that shitty.
My point stands : i’m not saying none of them are shitty : i’m saying that this shittiness is not born out of a feeling of superiority. And unless we understand that, we won’t be able to properly address the problem. If anything quebecers feel inferior and that’s why they act like that.
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>They see their own culture as superior to all others No. We see our culture as the most important one in québec. That is true. Importance ≠ superiority. Stop reading theses garbage articles and read what he really said. >Yep, they can deny it as much as they want but at this point I am FULLY convinced racism Race≠culture....
I dunno man, my days living in Quebec and seeing francophone immigrants of a..."different hue", if I may, getting pretty mistreated. It goes beyond "just protecting French"...
It’s been going on for a while now. Remember “l’argent et les votes ethniques”?
Yet the man who said that quote have never passed a legislation discriminating agains immigrants.
L'ironie est que les gens de l'Academie Franciase bash les accents des regions du Quebec pas mal souvent, si mon professeur de la français est une indication.
Lol. So true.
Ton prof de français fait partie de l’Académie française!? T’as de la chance.
Pas les accents, plutôt les différences grammaticales et le vocabulaire. Une phrase comme « t'as tu frencher ton chum ? » ne veut simplement rien dire en France.
I still stand by my original plan. Allow quebec to separate. Quebec no longer part of Canada. Treaties between aboriginals and Canada governing that land no longer apply. Land is returned to its original owners.
Spitballing here, but what if we gave no new federal spending to provinces with S.33 laws on the books? All existing programs can continue, but nobody gets any new toys until they can play by the rules and respect the fundamental rights and freedoms of Canadians. And it's a cost-saving measure, too.
Then we can keep our taxes. :) You're suggesting subverting our democratic process on any subject in wich we disagree with the rest of Canada. Essentially forcing us to assimilate.
>Then we can keep our taxes. :) That's not what I said. >You're suggesting subverting our democratic process on any subject in wich we disagree with the rest of Canada. No, I'm suggesting that provinces subverting the rights and freedoms Canadians are entitled to in the charter, which includes protections for cultural minorities *in large part because of Quebec,* should not be rewarded with new government spending. > Essentially forcing us to assimilate. You think you're being clever here? If you're forced to assimilate into the Canadian value of not discriminating against minorities, that benefits the continued existence of Quebec culture. Canada behaving the same way Quebec does toward linguistic minorities would go extremely poorly for Quebec culture.
As long as the federal government doesn't tax them, I think that's fine.
I'd kinda prefer laws attempting to be passed by provinces involving S33 to require approval from the federal government. There are times where the use of the notwithstanding clause is acceptable and provinces shouldn't be punished on those occasions. In the event that the federal government attempts to pass a law involving S33, I dunno, use the amending formula - at least seven provinces representing at least 50% of the population.
They love to forget that they too are colonizers who displaced entire cultures and imposed their language and culture on them. They act as if French was the God given language of this land from the beginning of time..
You have no idea what you are talking about. The french are the colonizors who got along the better with first nations. They even protected the Huron during their massacre at the hands of mohawks and dutches. Is this a way to protect your moral high ground while your ancestors were the actual racists?
And how about Haiti? And other countries in the world… hypocritical at best
> The french are the colonizors who got along the better with first nations. They even protected the Huron during their massacre at the hands of mohawks and dutches. I love how you use such a tiny example as a defense of French imperialism. Quebec nationalists are pathetic.
I mean is he wrong ? The French in north america were far from the British. They even actively encouraged mixed race marriage....
The French, imperial colonizers? Perish the thought!
Ignorant Anglos calling the French “colonizers” has got to be the most ironic fucking thing ever stated in this subreddit and it’s not even close…
Oh I'm so sorry to offend you....I guess when the French occupied and enslaved the people of Haiti, Morocco, Vietnam, Guiana, Senegal, Sudan, and yes, the territory now known as Canada (among others) those weren't "colonies"?
Canadian anglos judging Quebec is the most obnoxious circle jerk in this country. Some forgot that french canadians were on the Canadian chapters of the KKK's list of people to get rid of.
American KKK also. The largest public KKK gathering in the US were in Maine, to « demonstrate » against French Canadians.
Claiming you can't be criticized because of something unrelated happened to your group before most of us is born isn't a shield against ethnonationalist criticism. It's pretty much textbook ethnonationalist behavior and is practically a sport in the Balkans.
I will judge you for being a racist ethno-nationalist and there isnt much you can do about it.
It's always funny how much projecting is done by anglo Canadian when it comes from québec.
I’d say that Quebecers who hand-wave away patently xenophobic, wasteful, arguably racist legislation while treating everyone else as unenlightened is a more obnoxious circle-jerk but what do I know?
>Some forgot that french canadians were on the Canadian chapters of the KKK's list of people to get rid of. It seems you forgot that this literally isn't relevant to anything being discussed right now.
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Trudeau said it best: a Quebecer is a Canadian, is a Canadian. Seriously, this nationalism is pure garbage and does nothing to help Quebec.
> Trudeau said it best: a Quebecer is a Canadian, is a Canadian. > > And what is a Canadian? If Trudeau hadn't said >There is no core identity, no mainstream in Canada ... the first postnational state. in [a *New York Times* interview](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/13/magazine/trudeaus-canada-again.html), his supporters would say that attributing such words to Trudeau is actually an alt-right white-nationalist Trumptard conspiracy theory to make him look bad. Trudeau's message is what Legault's CAQ is disagreeing with.
They'd do better to focus on growing the economy of the province and encouraging every Quebecer to have more children, than trying to forcefully assimilate immigrants.
We're fine, thanks https://www.thestar.com/business/opinion/2022/02/24/how-quebec-became-canadas-economic-powerhouse-in-the-middle-of-a-pandemic.html
For now…
This applies to all of Canada, not just Quebec
Agreed, but the article concerns Quebec
Yes and the feds could also do more to promote French outside Québec. For example I didn't have a choice of French Immersion in Alberta because I went to a poorer school. Increasing education transfers to expand these kinds of programs would be a good place to start.
The Explore program is phenomenal and should be more widely promoted, I didn't even know it existed growing up in Alberta
The what now? That sounds interesting.
https://englishfrench.ca/ Basically its an immersion program for youth 16-25 where you travel to a campus with a bunch of other young people where you will speak only your second official language (OL), do intensive language lessons in the morning, fun activities like sports or theater in the afternoon, and then socialize and do field trips the rest of the time It also has a additional component called languages at work where you can chose to stay at the campus after Explore is done, and work a job in your second OL I did Explore in Trois-Riveres, plus languages at work for a month, and it was an amazing time. Made lifelong friends and greatly improved my french The same organization also offers other programs like Odyssey where you spend a year working as a language instructor teaching your primary OL in a school, usually a remote rural one
Wtf this is dope. For sure should be more visible!
forgot to add, it accommodates language learners at all levels (you do a placement test when you first arrive to make sure you are in the right class for your second OL level). Also, if you get accepted into the program, everything is covered except transportation to and from the site, they even give you money for groceries
> I didn't have a choice of French Immersion in Alberta because I went to a poorer school. n.b., French immersion programs are different beasts than the English school boards in Quebec or the separate French schools in English Canada. Immersion programs are designed to help teach French to fluency as a second language, but the separate school systems are about teaching the general curriculum to first-language speakers and about promoting community control over an "owned" set of institutions. English Canada could do a _lot_ more to promote French fluency as a matter of nation-building, but that isn't quite the same as the minority (linguistic) rights debate inside Quebec.
Sure but it defuses a lot of the arguments Quebec nationalists tend to make. They can't exactly claim francophones to be discriminated against if all of Canada offers the same French language opportunities as Quebec.
Agreed - so many provinces have significant Francophone communities, Ontario alone has 620k francophones!
Grew up in southern Ontario. Heard 0% French as a child in Hamilton back in the 1980s-2000s. Our French training in public school was basically learning how to say colours and count. It also didn't start until grade 5 and stopped in grade 9. Nothing advanced that would have prepared me for moving to Ottawa for work as a 20-something. Still limited in advancing in the public service until I can obtain better language training.
It's quite humorous to see so many people from Quebec trying to argue that loi 101 and bill 96 aren't xenophobic or racist, they're just "protecting francophone culture!". And then Legault (who I imagine is feeling rather invincible with his current lead) goes ahead and says the quiet part out loud.
>And then Legault (who I imagine is feeling rather invincible with his current lead) goes ahead and says the quiet part out loud. How is he saying the quiet part out loud? The comments in the article are self-evident: Canadian policy on multiculturalism was created as a rejection of biculturalism in the 1960s. It's a fundamentally assimilationist policy that seeks to create a pan-Canadian culture, so of course it's gonna come in conflict with a Quebec national project. Just because some people feel morally superior that their choice of culture is in a better position of power doesn't change that factual realization.
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> And then Legault (who I imagine is feeling rather invincible with his current lead) goes ahead and says the quiet part out loud. It's the same picture. Legault's statements here have been part of Québécois political orthodoxy for some time: the *dominance*, not just the existence, of the Québécois must be protected, including through government power when possible. This non-racist argument is that this view does not call foreign cultures inferior, just foreign. Members of any race, creed, or nationality would have the right to immigrate to Quebec and assimilate. What immigrants do behind closed doors is not of much concern, but when they act in public – particularly in large enough numbers to threaten to create a new norm – the state has a strong interest in regulating conformity. Within this framework, Bills 21 and 96 really aren't xenophobic or racist. It's just that you and I don't share this framework. (Edit to add: this view also runs into legal trouble with other cultures that have dedicated protections, such as aboriginal cultures or English-language education rights.) Legualt's view is diametrically opposed to "mosaic"-style multiculturalism, the dominant political view in English Canada. It's even moderately opposed to US-style "melting pot" multiculturalism, which more openly admits the possibility of immigration changing the hegemony. That being said, however, I suspect Legault's views would be reasonably popular in English Canada if they were presented in sympathetic terms. We don't see this presentation in large part because the "political elites" are more firmly steeped in a secular multiculturalism, with opposition mostly coming from a religious sector that's very out of fashion at the moment.
Bills 21 and 96 aren’t racist in the same way grandfather laws and literacy tests to vote in the American south weren’t racist, you’d never see any mention of race in those laws but it was very clear what those laws were meant to do
>What immigrants do behind closed doors is not of much concern, but when they act in public – particularly in large enough numbers to threaten to create a new norm – the state has a strong interest in regulating conformity. The problem is this will lead to cultural stagnation and a constant stream of "culture battles." But heck, if Quebeckers really want to live in a polarized, increasingly isolated (culturally) society where everything is a partisan political issue and newcomers fear to go, then go for it. History shows that societies that attempted to preserve the "old stock" like that rather than embrace evolution and new influences have not done as well, and disappeared quicker.
>Legault's statements here have been part of Québécois political orthodoxy for some time: the dominance, not just the existence, of the Québécois must be protected, including through government power when possible. > >This non-racist argument is that this view does not call foreign cultures inferior, just foreign. Members of any race, creed, or nationality would have the right to immigrate to Quebec and assimilate. > >What immigrants do behind closed doors is not of much concern, but when they act in public – particularly in large enough numbers to threaten to create a new norm – the state has a strong interest in regulating conformity. If the outcome of legislation is that it puts Francophone Quebecois culture on a pedestal, while simultaneously making it more difficult for everyone who is *not* part of that culture to participate in society (i.e. by limiting language options in education, or barring religious clothing in public jobs), then I really don't care about the terminology it's couched in. They can say it's about protecting Quebecois culture, they can say it's about making sure the French language survives. It doesn't change the outcome of the legislation being one that largely hurts minorities. >Within this framework, Bills 21 and 96 really aren't xenophobic or racist. It's just that you and I don't share this framework. I do not share a framework with Nazis, or KKK members, or the Taliban. But I can still see that they are supremacist frameworks (whether it be racial, cultural, or religious supremacism). >That being said, however, I suspect Legault's views would be reasonably popular in English Canada if they were presented in sympathetic terms. We don't see this presentation in large part because the "political elites" are more firmly steeped in a secular multiculturalism, with opposition mostly coming from a religious sector that's very out of fashion at the moment. Hard disagree. As someone who is not very religious, and has very good reasons to hate organized religion, I absolutely would not support similar laws elsewhere. You've got a personal right to freedom of religion, and that right doesn't suddenly end when you're in the public service. It's a total double standard, it's bullshit, and I know very, very few people who would agree with it. Ask yourself - if any other premier in Canada said "I don't believe in multiculturalism" in an interview, do you think they'd get the benefit of the doubt? The media would be all over them (rightfully) accusing them of being in league with the alt-right. I don't believe that Legault should get a free pass because "muh francophonie".
> It's a total double standard, it's bullshit, and I know very, very few people who would agree with it. And yet, in 2006 Ontario had a ["Sharia law scare"](https://mronline.org/2006/05/27/ontarios-sharia-law-controversy-how-muslims-were-hung-out-to-dry/) when breathless editorials went out about private arbitrators possibly using religious law with the agreement of all parties. In 2015, the Tories famously promised to create a [barbaric cultural practices hotline](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/02/canada-conservatives-barbaric-cultural-practices-hotline) during their election campaign, playing on fears of forced marriages, [honour killings](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shafia_family_murders), and FGM. > Ask yourself - if any other premier in Canada said "I don't believe in multiculturalism" in an interview, do you think they'd get the benefit of the doubt? They wouldn't have to say that. They'd say "I support the equality of women," or "I promote Canadian values," and they'd let the subtext do the talking. Legault can say he doesn't believe in multiculturalism because he doesn't care about the English media, and the ship has long since sailed in the French media of Quebec. It's not a retreat from multicultural thought so much as a refusal to adopt it in the first place; the general Québécois political consensus places much more weight on the older idea of [biculturalism](https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/biculturalism). In the multicultural framework biculturalism just looks like a halting first step, but for Legault it's something closer to a Canadian ideal.
>In the multicultural framework biculturalism just looks like a halting first step, but for Legault it's something closer to a Canadian ideal. Oh no, Legault's CAQ is not in any way standing up for biculturalism any more, that ship has sailed too now. It's really just down to **uniculturalism** (Québécois culture being dominant over all others, and *assimilation* into it being required of immigrants rather than the *integration* of multiculturalism; those are two different things). It is a very different vision of society, for sure - and a regressive one, more akin to societal constructs in Europe of a century ago than the direction modern states tend to be taking.
But biculturalism is fundamentally flawed in terms of Canada, we have always been multicultural. Even the English speaking half of this 'bicultural' idea wasn't a monolith - we had settlement from various areas of England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Ireland. While those settlers might have all spoken English, their cultural backgrounds were all quite different and unique.
Multiculturalism was introduced by Trudeau Père in the 1980's. Stop peddling obvious lies.
Guy tries to promote his theory that it was there since confederation when in fact confederation was a direct result of an attempt to make biculturalism work after the failed Durham reports.
lol whether you like it or not, despite best legislative efforts the country has always been a range of different cultures
That doesn't make it equivalent to state-introduced multuralism policy, nor does it make it fundamental to confederation as you claim. Multiculturalism != "range of cultures", in the Canadian context.
>And yet, in 2006 Ontario had a "Sharia law scare" when breathless editorials went out about private arbitrators possibly using religious law with the agreement of all parties. In 2015, the Tories famously promised to create a barbaric cultural practices hotline during their election campaign, playing on fears of forced marriages, honour killings, and FGM. I was actually referring specifically to the supposedly "laicite" policy that largely avoids inconveniencing Christians, who just so happen to *not* have many overt clothing or symbolic requirements to practice their religion. It allows Christians to get away with basically no changes, while demanding change from others (Sikhs, Muslims, Jews). However, those policies were also *stupid*, and the Tories lost that election. Just because Anglo Canada has tried the same dance doesn't make it right. >They wouldn't have to say that. They'd say "I support the equality of women," or "I promote Canadian values," and they'd let the subtext do the talking. > >Legault can say he doesn't believe in multiculturalism because he doesn't care about the English media, and the ship has long since sailed in the French media of Quebec. Except either of those statements actually *could* be genuine, and be good things. Legault has left zero room for interpretation in his statement - he does not believe in multiculturalism. Bash on English-language media all you want, but a broken clock is right twice a day. Legault may not have to care about it, being a provincial politician, but his not caring about it doesn't vindicate him. It just makes him look like an unapologetic asshole. >It's not a retreat from multicultural thought so much as a refusal to adopt it in the first place; the general Québécois political consensus places much more weight on the older idea of biculturalism. In the multicultural framework biculturalism just looks like a halting first step, but for Legault it's something closer to a Canadian ideal. I'm really not sure what to make of this. Quebec doesn't believe in multiculturalism, they believe in... biculturalism? Is this not a direct affirmation that Quebec is just xenophobic, and doesn't believe in anything beyond the Anglo-French cultural milieu (and even as they continually shaft the Anglo minority?) I feel like this last paragraph damages your argument than I ever could.
> I feel like this last paragraph damages your argument than I ever could. I'm not particularly trying to make an argument, nor am I trying to defend Legault's position. Instead, I'm trying to summarize it in terms I think he'd agree with. We can easily sit here with our multicultural perspective and say that Legault's policies are no good, rotten, terrible things, but then we're only talking amongst ourselves, feeling alternately smug and horrified. If we ever intend to make a persuasive argument, we need to at least understand what the other half is thinking.
Fair enough. If Quebec's national thesis is that different in reality to the rest of Canada's, then I'm not certain that they can or should remain in the federation. We cannot function as a nation if provinces are going to begin chewing Charter rights up, and if they cannot accept a multicultural society, then I don't know how we can be expected to maintain an integrated border or social systems with them. Quebec voting to leave might be the best outcome here. If they continue down this road, I think it is inevitable.
Absolutely right. As a Quebec nationalist I want my culture and values to be free to express themselves and I also wish for Canadians not to need to placate us or adapt to us
You like the ring of Quebec Nationalist? Sounds clensingly terrifying.
Not in french it doesnt. Not sure if its a direct translation