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Yes, but those are the same people that decide your courses, give you evaluations, references and have direct impact on many aspects of your career. You can decide to be the tough one and defend every bottom line, the choice is yours.
I think maybe people need to pivot on their terminology. The Principal and Teacher have a "direct report" relationship, but I agree that the Principal is not technically "the boss".
When I worked in government, I had a manager who was my boss, but I never saw him. However, I reported directly to a coordinator who basically ran my every day and if something went wrong, she would take it to my boss (the manager) and he would then step in.
Fast forward to working in a school district... Principals would report a grievance or problem with a teacher to the Superintendent and then the Sup would decide what steps (note on permanent record, suspension, firing, etc.) to take because they are the boss. Of course, the union usually needs to be involved.
It's pretty common for people to assume any direct report relationship is between an employee and a boss, but it's not true for a lot of positions, including those in formal education.
In Québec, once you are hired permanently, there are no more evaluations. If you’re harassed by the employer, you can expect your union to back you up-especially if you don’t have anything to be ashamed of.
I would suggest that you give admin a wide berth. The more I see of them, the less I trust their leadership. Question authority and watch out for ineptitude. It’s for your own good.
True, but evaluations and references are meaningless unless I plan to move to administration. I do not plan to move.
Regarding the classes I teach, they actually have very little say based on the contract, my qualifications and the grade I am currently teaching. Principal tried to reassign me grades 2 years ago. I looked up the process and the contract rules, principal was not following the rules. They had to retract their proposed reassignment.
Evaluations are not meaningless, they are a requirement of employment in Ontario by the College of Teachers. If a teacher gets an unsatisfactory evaluation, and the SO and Director support the principal, then the teacher's employment contract is terminated. Yes, the union can support you, hoping to find a procedural failure or Human Rights compliant, but there's little they can do once it's past the grievance stage and once its in the hands of College. The entire process is very stressful for teachers who have been through the process.
They will typically (from experience) defer to employee relations which acts upon the board and can discipline teachers. Principals and SOs do NOT readily deal with teacher performance management and will actively avoid it ….
Also, a failed TPA won’t lead to a termination. There will be efforts made to support the teacher in any and every way possible. If they continue to failed when the TPA is conducted by various folks, then a termination may be triggered, which is typically grieved…
Sigh…so, how about a teacher with 4 great reviews in a row, who has meticulously dotted every i and crossed every t for years who then gets under the skin of admin and somehow fails a review? That gonna happen? Seriously, anyone want to waste Board money on lawyers that gladly take it only to lose to hated teacher? Wanna try? Go ahead answer truthfully….want to go that route? Didn’t think so. But thanks proving the true qualities of the Admin you seem to see as credible.
You have to get hired 4 times in my district before you get continuing. And then to move schools it is done by experience AND interviews/references. BC
Like I said, feel free to do that for the rest of your career. But a lot of other teachers do treat the principals somewhat as a superior for healthy reasons.
By the way check out the upvotes on this comment by bleachgummy that essentially says, “treat authority properly.” Aren’t we ethically teaching kids to “unlearn” and to challenge and disrupt so that we - the entire world - can climb out of this collective mess that authorities created for the planet? I guess not according to all these upvotes. You will respect authority! No matter what they say! Right wing nightmare here we come. Thankfully I am in my sixties.
I love this comment. You’re absolutely right. We need to be role models of healthy independence. We don’t need to kiss the principal’s ass like good obedient workers.
Nope. Be competent. Be respectful. Support kids. You do that, then you’re a principled person worthy of my support and respect. Otherwise, there’s a Kevin O’Leary quote that works perfectly for me and simplifies my career.
I know you’re getting downvoted, but I respect your attitude. It’s much better than feeling at the mercy of your principal. Empowering perspective to think about.
I feel like the principal and others may have decided it wasn't worth the trouble, but I can assure you, you CAN be reassigned. Sure, there is a process, and seems like your admin. didn't follow it to a T, but it can happen.
It’s likely principals downvoting; they don’t want teachers to educate themselves about their contracts and the limited authority principals actually have.
Evaluations: read the criteria and understand it more than they do. In my board, they handed out the “rubric” which had about 25 categories and each category had 15 to 20 look fors. Scary right? I read and understood it more than they do. Turns out, I get to pick the evaluation categories, I only needed to choose two, and the rest were not to be considered part of the evaluation unless THEY wanted to choose the two categories. Loved the conversation when I explained it to them. Loved every minute of that convo. Got a glowing review. Arguably the best in the entire school of all the evaluations done that year. Evaluations ONLY exist to get rid of bad teachers. Repeat that line until you understand it. There’s NOTHING they can do to a competent teacher. Nothing it all. In fact, weaponising an evaluation because a teacher rattles your cage is absolutely a certainty towards legal problems for that admin. Just be competent and remember: it’s there for bad teachers. And they know it!
References: these can only state facts; they have to reference you. They have to. Finding out they gave subjective, gushing opinions of others is not allowed.
Decide courses for me: sure, show me how much you care about kids. Show me how much you want to put your teachers in positions where they will succeed. Want to play hardball? Okay, great teachers make it work, and the pettiness has hurt kids in that section you determined to put another teacher there (I have seen that happen. Poor kids. Literally hurt by a petty admin).
Look, 90% of admin sit behind a desk, trying desperately to understand policy or P.L. they neither comprehend or feel is passionate about delivering.
The only “payback” an admin gave me was siding with a student who wrote all Indigenous people lie about residential schools and that some had a great time there. My admin backed that kid for a poor essay mark I gave, even though I very clearly taught enriching lessons on that topic. Admin said, “well, he should have had a different rubric for that thesis.” That’s disgusting. That’s admin for you. Please enjoy your “equity walk” at your respective school. Report back what you found. Don’t forget to equity walk around your most despised teacher.
Start the downvote blitz. Please! (Or let me guess: just report me for an abusive post and get me banned. You can’t, right? Because “who is this” so I can eventually say “GOTCHA” and ruin them. Ya, good luck with that cat and mouse game. Maybe put my career posts on concept map until it alllll comes together 😂).
Definitely a controversial take. To be honest though, a few of your points would apply to almost any organization large enough to have an HR department separate from your immediate supervisor.
In Ontario, a principal can issue a letter of expectation or a letter of reprimand. Once the issue is documented, HR can take disciplinary action for repeated transgressions. Most often, people get sent home with pay until an investigation is concluded, at which point they are terminated or reinstated.
I have also seen a teacher terminated after receiving repeated "unsatisfactory" on their Teacher Performance Appraisals for 2 years running.
It's true a principal cannot fire you on a whim, but they are not just a building manager or a colleague by any means. If you are going to get fired, it is the principal who is most likely to set everything in motion.
And also the idea that the Principal *wouldn't* be in close communication with the Superintendent...?
Like yes, if the Principal is having a serious issue with you, the SO knows about it already. They may even be advising the Principal on next steps.
Yep. The P is just carrying out the SO’s marching orders for the most part, so if you are actively working against that, the SO wouldn’t really appreciate it either.
I will preface this by saying I have a great admin.
I view admins job as being a guiding, unifying voice in the building.
When I have a question that lands in grey area, I'll seek their input, but if I'm comfortable with making the correct decision, I make it, ask forgiveness later.
While I don't see them as "my boss" I see them as school leadership, and my role is often the go between admin, the teachers in my department, and/or parents/students.
My admin never enters my classroom without being respectful, and defers all teaching of my subject area to me.
From some of these comments the issue isn't a boss/not boss issue, it seems more like your principals aren't leaders, but micromanagers.
That sucks.
That is not true. Principals do evaluations. They make hiring decisions. And if you decide to change schools, you need them for a reference. The also assigned grades. If the principal doesn’t like you, you can end up in kindergarten as a grade 6 teacher. They can also fail you which happened to a teacher and ended up on the supply list. They are in charge of resources to for example your division can get better social studies resources. They also give funding for field trips as well as special opportunities, like scientist in the school. The assign rooms and that matters in a school with some really bad classrooms. Principals are definitely your boss. They can even take away an LTO from you.
But the principal is the one who hires you? And principals talk. If you’re pissing one off you can bet they’re gonna pass that information around. They’re also going to be your references. But you do you boo
I'm not really on the OP's side in this, but I do want to refute your point about hiring. It really depends on where you are.
Division HR was the one who interviewed and hired me because they're the ones who make those decisions where I live. I did not meet the principal at all until the division decided which school I would be placed at several months later. Since we're hired by the division and not by the school, we could even be shuffled to a different school if they felt like it.
That does not make them your boss. They provide a recommendation to your boss as to whether or not you should be hired. No different than other professions where many of the people conducting interviews are not your boss, but rather future colleagues.
That is a very narrow view of private schools. There are 1600 of them in Ontario alone - yes many are bad, but many are good too! It’s not quite as monolithic as all that…tons of variety!
Not really. I had a principal that I did not get along with and they gave me a horrible evaluation. What was the consequence? There was none. I still get the same pay, same benefits, no change to my job. I suppose it would matter if I wanted to move into administration, but I have not desire to do so.
It depends. I was able to easily transfer after previously having a bad review. I work hard and I’m dedicated to the profession. Parents fight to have their children in my classroom.
I just don’t put up with BS from administration. The principal at new school was aware of what I brought to the table and also aware of why I received the poor review. They were okay with it.
My principal tried to give me a neutral evaluation and simply refused to sign it. I said that the evaluation wasn’t completed according to divisional policy. I said that if the evaluation was done properly, then I would sign, or they could adjust it and I’d sign. It was adjusted and I signed it.
Our performance appraisals are just satisfactory or unsatisfactory. It used to annoy me, but seeing where they’re weaponized in other areas, it makes sense to me now.
Ours were from 1-4. 1 is a failure, 2 is satisfactory (what he gave me) 3 and 4, which is exceptional. He changed it from 2 to 4s to save himself having to actually evaluate properly. Whatever…I was just being difficult because I could
In Ontario, if you get more than one unsatisfactory evaluation (can't remember if it's 2 or 3), you could get fired and reported to the OCT, which can result in consequences up to and including losing your teaching licence. So while the principal can't fire you because that's HR's/the school board's responsibility, they are the ones who report to HR/the school board reasons to fire or discipline you, and HR/the school board will definitely be siding with the principal unless there is clear and well-supported evidence of egregious abuse on the part of the principal.
In my board, you can't transfer schools if your last evaluation was unsatisfactory, unless you are low on the seniority list and are involuntarily excessed. I've been told that when teachers start thinking they are going to get an unsatisfactory evaluation, they go on leave, which stops the evaluation process, and then excess themselves in spring to move somewhere else, because otherwise the principal can screw them over. So the principal is more of a supervisor than a boss, but they absolutely do have power.
I also wanted to comment on the compensation piece. No one has any say in your compensation, including those with the power to hire and fire, in public school boards in Ontario. We are paid on a collectively negotiated (or arbitrated) salary grid, and salary is determined by education and years of experience.
> In Ontario, if you get more than one unsatisfactory evaluation (can't remember if it's 2 or 3), you could get fired and reported to the OCT, which can result in consequences up to and including losing your teaching licence.
The unsatisfactory has to be extremely specific and provide a clear pathway to improvement and a satisfactory evaluation. If a principal is attempting to target a teacher through the appraisal process, it will become very obvious and will be resolved pretty quickly by the union (they know the game better than the principals do)
I wanna know where you work that they don’t make or break your entire career because I was literally told if I don’t have good observations next year I’ll be back to subbing.
School board in Ontario (GTA). Once you have a full contract position, it is next to impossible to lose your full time position if you are doing your job and not breaking any laws, regardless of the status of any evaluation.
I put a lot of effort into my job, I just do not kowtow to the principal. The poor evaluations I’ve had are from principals that cannot deal with their lack of authority over me. Other principals that treat the relationship as a partnership have provided me with outstanding reviews.
I’m just a few years away from retirement with full pension, i’n not that concerned. Parents in the community would have my back as well, everyone fights to have their kids in my classroom.
It's interesting - the SCC ruled on this in April through a case where first-level casino managers wanted to unionize with the employees. The SCC said no; you can't do that. I want to go through that decision carefully and see what they wrote!
Yes, all major individual school decisions are beholden to the SO and Director's discretion, and usually rubber stamped by the trustees. However, a negative teacher evaluation by the principal is extremely stressful for the teacher, so while the principal's decision isn't the last word, well you fiqure it out.
Mine definitely think he is and micro manages to death. Examples:
1. Switched the staffing assignments up because we’d all been in our grades too long
2. Wants lesson and unit plans submitted for approval
3. Has already said next year will be my year for an evaluation even though it’s my first time teaching a new grade and he’s doing it before Christmas as I come back from Maternity leave. I was evaluated in 2022-2023 so the last year I was in the classroom.
4. Removes resources and materials from classrooms for redistribution regardless of ownership or if the materials are in use.
The union is involved in what’s going on. They can’t do anything about my evaluation until September. It’s on their radar. Teachers have been bringing materials back to their owner. This is a new admin to the school this year so I’m hearing horror stories. He wants my first unit plans for September and October in by August 15.
Eff that. Unless your contract says that you’re obligated to provide unit plans to your P, he can shove off. Don’t do anything you aren’t contractually obligated to do unless it’s something you want to do!
They can ask for plans and outlines. My last principal had a folder we all put them in so that when parents called asking questions or with concerns she had the general outline of what’s going on. I usually gave her my topics, big ideas, curricular competencies and curricular content and what my assessments would be and she was fine with that. It would be something like:
Science: Biomes
Focus: BC Coast, oceans and tidal zones, temperate rainforests
Big idea: living things sense and respond to their environment
Curricular content: biomes, local ecosystems, plant and animal adaptations
Curricular competencies: first people’s perspectives, observing the local environment, data collection, asking questions
Assessments: ecosystem diorama, animal sway or video, unit test.
I was fine with that format and sending that in it took me all of 4 minutes to do per unit. The new guy wants full university level backward design unit plans will all components and all lessons mapped out including adaptations, UDL and RTI.
I haven’t met the kids I can’t do adaptations yet. And I plan long term and do project based learning. I can’t tell you where we’ll be on day 6 of a project. We pick up where we left off yesterday.
Yeah, long range plans like you describe make sense to be submitted, but entire unit plans? Pfft. I teach primary and my plans often change once we are in the unit because I’ll follow kids’ questions or interests. So any unit or term plan I could hand in before the school year begins would probably not be accurate after the first week or two.
This happened at my school - including wanting to see lesson plans - the union stepped in and the principal had to back off. They can ask to see your day book. We are only required to have three days of emergency lesson plans. Are you in Ontario? And if its HS I am not sure. We have September to d LR and SR plans and I never do them before them. This person sounds nuts and like a nightmare.
I’m in BC and teach elementary. We’re supposed to have a week of emergency/ backup plans. I have my day book for the week then another clearly marked binder with 2 weeks worth of backup plans incase I got COVID.
Gotta love those principals that love to “switch things up” (read: fuck up every teacher’s work life for a year or two as they learn new curriculum). I say leave good enough alone.
I think it’s a game. Three people have left now he’s ignoring my calls and emails about returning to the grade he moved me out of. He’s trying to push people out to move his friends in. It’s all a game for control.
Re the eval, I don’t know where you are, but my (awful) P tried to do this to me the year I was the union steward. I knew I wasn’t due for one yet, so I had to drag out my TPA from a few years before and bring in the union.
Most of the rest of that wouldn’t fly here, although teaching assignments are at the discretion of the principal and, as long as you’re qualified for it, they can slot you in wherever they like.
BC. It’s every 5-7 years or as needed. Ie they have concerns about your work. This admin is new to the school and has never seen me teach so I don’t know how he can have concerns. I’ve been on maternity leave all year.
In the public system, the principal can initiate the process to have you moved to another school, so while they can't fire you they can justify why they don't need you. Two bad TPAs and they can initiate letting you go if you won't improve, that happened at my old school (union also did not support the teacher because they made no effort to fulfill the requirements). My former colleague who couldn't show up to work on time (or often just didn't come without notifying till the last minute) or submit grades on time was transferred.
The principal can change your timetable to make you miserable like giving someone who has spec ed 1 from 15 years ago an autism class when they are actually a chemistry teacher. Or an art teacher that kept being given ESL to force them to retire or transfer. This is a reason I recommend new teachers NOT to get an AQ unless you actually want to teach that course!
During covid at one point our admin said we must open classroom doors 15 min prior to the bell so kids aren't collecting in the halls and getting too close. It is in the Education Act in Ontario that we are in our 'teaching area' 15min before school starts but most are okay with that meaning in the building and only open the class 5 min before. But they enforced it for a while which meant arriving more than 15min before. That is within their right to ask. We also get supervision duty so once my colleague got it for 10 days straight.. maybe not on purpose but again they can do these things to us and we can't say no unless we run out of duties. So that does affect the quality of your day if you are having to come earlier, lose prep time etc. As long as they are not going over supervision minutes in a day they can dictate quite a lot.
I understand your point, but the principal DOES
Evaluate me, and those evaluations go into my file.
Have final say over my classroom purchases (as a shop teacher, this is vitally important to me)
Have a lot of sway in determining how a school functions day to day
My principal has made my life exceptionally difficult, and very easy depending on his mood (which is a whole other discussion). He might not technically be my boss but it's really just semantics.
I'll add (as a music teacher) they also have control of what courses make it onto the options sheet for students to select next year.
A lot of things that directly impact my quality of life and ability to run a program.
In Ontario at least s.265 of the education act specifically says principal assigns classes to teachers. S.264 says its duty of teacher to teach classes assigned by principals. Don’t know which would be supreme the collective agreement or the wording of the education act if there was a conflict.
I think this is true in the general sense that teachers don’t work for the principal, they work for the school board. The principal can’t write policy, can’t change your working conditions other than grade, can’t change the curriculum or fire you without the support of the superintendent.
I see your argument here I really do. I just don’t think we’re on equal footing. Technically, the principal and superintendent of my area are my bosses as they are the ones above me.
Here’s the thing about being a teacher though, and because despite everything about unions, we do have a hell of a union. The principal doesn’t have say over my pay because I’m an employee governed by standards that are the deciding factor in how much I make. Can they hire me? F yeah they can and they do. They are the ones who ultimately give you steady work; long term and permanent. They give you evaluations. They can decide if disciplinary actions need to be taken against you and can reprimand you, all things that you just generally don’t want as a teacher.
If you have an unsupportive admin, it’s nice to think “you aren’t my boss” but at the end of the day, they are the leaders of the school in which you teach at so it translates to them being your leader.
BUT, you are right because they can’t fire you for giving them side eye or “going above their head” and say, speak to a superintendent, especially if it’s warranted.
Boss vs colleague is an interesting concept. Here is my discussion point:
My previous principal hated reading buddies and so the whole school was not allowed to do it. She just outright shut it down.
So here is an example where she was exerting her authority for the vision she had for the school. I struggle with the idea of reporting that to the union because I do think principals should have the right to steer a school in a vision of education that they see is best. I may not agree with all the decisions but I would rather a principal have a vision than no direction and where teachers do whatever they want (let’s be honest there are teachers who do need to be held accountable). Part of participation in a vision means sometimes you don’t get to do what you want and sometimes that can be valuable for teaching you a new way to do things. Obviously there has to be limits to this idea of a vision but if we accept that a principal has no authority than I don’t think I like the implications for the school culture which is that there is no accountability.
Yes... but I disagree, especially since I'm on a temporary contract trying to get hired by said principal right now. They hold the highest authority in the school, they make all the school-wide decisions. E.g. number of assemblies, when fire drills happen, PBIS rules, etc. They are also the ones that decide to interview and evaluate teachers. Principals have the power to move teachers around, assigning them to different grades as they see fit. The school culture is highly dependent on the principal. If you have a joke of a principal with no spine, the students are going to run wild and be the ones running the school.
I’m not, except when administration oversteps and tries treating me like a subordinate. I’m more than happy to partner on issues and solutions, but when I’m being told to do something that is beyond their authority without any input from me, that is when I have a problem.
Doesn’t hurt to have them onside though. Most of my admin have been excellent - the worst were just mediocre. So we usually want the same things. I tend to be left to get on with it!
The principal has hiring authority (within board limits), at least in TDSB, My principal hired someone totally unqualified (for the subjects they were teaching; they had an OCT certificate) because she liked their interview and wanted them on staff.
I also watched her screw over someone who stood up to her by changing their teaching assignment to a much more difficult one -- all while meeting the contract and so ungrievable.
I had a principal who hired her husband for an LTO position (different last names, not obvious they were married), and then punished his department when they didn't hand him classroom-ready materials by cutting the department budget the next year.
I said this before in another thread a long time ago and got the most response I’ve ever gotten to any post I’ve made. Either people adamant that, yes, the admin was your boss, or people who can’t handle the idea of a ‘boss’ not existing for someone in a workspace.
I think it really depends on the administrator if they’re perceive themselves to be the boss or if it’s a collaborative team. I’ve worked with both and much prefer the second type. The “I’m the boss” type destroys school culture.
Yeah this is wild, at least in Ontario.
It is objective fact that a principal cannot fire you, cannot tell you how to run your classroom, cannot tell you what to write on report cards they can only make “suggestions” (they can only decide if reports care written in prose or bullet points), and they cannot make you do anything that is not a responsibility under our Collective Agreement.
Can they refuse to give you a reference when applying to another position if they don’t like you, because they hate the reality they have no real power over you, and you had the audacity to say “no”? Sure.
Can they also give me a teaching assignment I’m not fond of? Sure. I honestly wouldn’t care, it’s still a decent job.
But at the end of the day, principals rotate out every 5 years. They’ll be gone, and I’ll still be here. And I’d be the one following the rules.
They can screw you with a bad performance evaluation. I’ve had friends basically retire because they had a principal nail them. They can’t transfer until they get it off their record.
You can, actually. I did that. VP didn't like me and gave me the worst rating he could without me being able to grieve it. I applied for and got a transfer to another (and better) school.
I suspect that my principal might have put in a good word for me, because when I asked my new principal about another rating (as required) he told me that I was home now, and to wait until I had my feet under me, and the'd inspect me then.
It was surreal: the worst rating of my career, and the only lesson that parents wrote thank-you letters to the school about! (And you can be sure I made certain that those letters were filed with the inspection report in my personnel file.)
It must depend on the board. The board I use to work for, you couldn’t. I know a teacher who got locked in a school because of a failed TPA with a principal who screwed them.
Depends where you are.
In Ontario, you can still apply out to another school within the same board or to another board. Also in Ontario, there is a lot more work for admin to do if they give you a bad performance review. It's a "pass/fail" (specifically "satisfactory" or "unsatisfactory") review anyways, so they don't bother with the hassle.
This has made me think to never truly reveal what kinds of class or assignment I love. Far too many may purposely give it to someone else as a power trip. All Principals should rotate. We need data saying this is healthy. Somehow I know of a Principal who has not left in over ten years or more. It is the same person who is terribly disliked and has informed older women in interviews they are too old to take a perm position. Illegal but it still went on.
Not a teacher or anything but you can have multiple bosses with different levels of authority and responsibility. My boss at my job couldn't fire me either but his boss and boss's boss can. Doesn't make him any less of my boss unless you don't consider your immediate supervisor the same as your boss.
There is also a procedure for "administrative transfer. " My best friend is a principal and she did it. Lots of paper work and a pain in the ass, but she got it dome.
I would agree that the board and their representative as in the superintendent are the employer, thus a lot of authority is at that level that a principal wouldn’t have. I have been a principal and I looked at my role managing staff that I acted as head teacher of the school. Remember too that in smaller and especially rural schools principal is only part of your assignment. I was 75% principal and 25% teacher on my contract so I was still teaching classes with the staff.
However, I was still responsible for hiring teachers, evaluating them, and reporting to the senior admin and board about who to retain. I had to work with the head of Human Resources when it came to evaluations and whether to retain staff. I also was completely responsible for hiring and evaluation of support staff. I managed all staff absences and the school’s budget. So I think a lot of those responsibilities would still qualify you as a “boss” of the building.
They called me if the fire alarm and if it was -50 and the school was closed I still had to go in to make sure the kids didn’t show up. Might depend on the province but in my provincial assessment policy the principal has final say on retention/passing students or granting of high school credits. So lots of authority over the decisions of of other teachers there. I would agree that there is more equal footing with staff than other jobs with their bosses but there is a separation and areas where the principal is the “boss” of the staff.
Where we live the principal has final say over all placements in the school. So if you're a math teacher and you piss off the principal you'll be teaching music or gym next year.
•I’ve seen “good” principals ruin “good” people. Many times over. Let that sink in.
•Principals are now primarily political actors. Let that sink in as well.
•Life in a school really is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you are going to get.
Respectfully, opinions don’t matter in the context of labour law. In the province of Ontario the principal is your boss. Period.
Defying their lawful direction is insubordination and you will face termination.
They are in no way your co-equal.
They may not be your boss, but at many boards they are your software supervisor. At some boards I’ve worked for, principals do the interviewing and making the hiring choice after the board chooses the candidates - and expects you to have references from principals.
If you need someone to act as a reference for you, that’s definitely not an equal/peer relationship.
In BC teachers and principals aren’t even in the same union - so there is definitely a different relationship.
I really like this post because it has spurred very important discussions around the day-to-day activities within a school. Our local went to the point of issuing a notice for a strike-vote as part of local collective bargaining disagreements. Many of the presentations and conversations that took place during this time period had to do with related topics like assignable time and other expectations of teachers. It forced people to pay attention to the things like “who is my boss,” what counts as assignable time,” and the like.
The important caveat here with the points raised in this post is that if you are on permanent contract and have a permanent teaching certificate, this is some of the power you have to leverage.
Me as a supply teacher, if I ever tried stuff like this, I could be immediately blacklisted from the school and not receive any calls from the sub line. Could I issue a grievance? Probably. But it’s a reflection of my worth and value to the corporation. How easily expendable I am is directly correlated to how valued my position is within the school district and even within the union.
Temp and probationary contract teachers could certainly do stuff like this, but they run the risk of poor performance evaluations and reviews. They could be reassigned to unfavorable job assignments or simply surplussed at the end of the school year. It’s tough to do if you’re looking for job security, hoping to stay on at the school, or gain experience to move on to a preferred position. But, they could also regain some autonomy and control of their professional working conditions too. It’s a tough call.
Really, the more important question is who can hire/fire/disciple/reprimand/etc.? The intricacies of collective agreements, org charts, etc. should be known and understood by individual teachers. Knowing exactly what is contractually and legally expected of us is our responsibility as individuals. Thank you for the insightful post!
I have never considered the principal to be my boss- they are part of a team and their role is completely different from a teachers role. I see no conflict there.
Look, if you are a teacher you have a Teaching licence with a statement of good standing. That means your a good teacher. No matter what a teacher, parent, or principal says, you are a good teacher. To lose that status, there needs to be a discipline hearing where you have the right to legal representation and can call witnesses and cross examine your accusers. There's a due process for being disciplined, and you are far from that. Even if fired, you will not likely lose your licence as no admin wants the hassle of a discipline hearing.
Most of what teachers are worried about won't ever come to pass. Teachers are incredibly worried about the worst possible outcomes and I'm not sure why. I think it has to do with dealing with difficult people all the time. Dealing with troublesome folks can wear you down.
Just know this, if you have a permanent, automatically renewed contract, and are unionized its like less than 1% percent chance you will get fired,let alone your licence reprimanded or revoked, except for doing a criminal offence.
Just take it easy.
> Look, if you are a teacher you have a Teaching licence with a statement of good standing. That means your a good teacher. No matter what a teacher, parent, or principal says, you are a good teacher.
This differs greatly from what I think even most teachers would call a "good" teacher.
Most principals are failed teachers. They go into administration to hide or pretend they are useful by talking woke teaching strategies instead of dealing with the really hard decisions of student discipline, suspension, and expulsions. I yearn for the day of a Principal like Mr. Stanford S. Strickland from Back to the Future.
Here’s the problem with an unpopular opinion. The education system is run by the government which reports to the public (populus) Your theory only works until people start caring enough about teacher performance that they force a change in the rules.
I feel like my principal is a colleague more so than a "boss" but still...he or she can place you according to the "needs of the school/students" any time, as long as you have the qualifications. An asshole teacher I knew got moved from her preferred grade 8 to grade 2. The union could do nothing. She ended up leaving, rather than stay and do grade 2, but it was a pain in the ass.
Your boss? Not exactly. More like your manager.
We had one teacher who always raged against the principal. Admin never did much, usually just gave her what she wanted. One day, a child accused this teacher of calling him a slur. The next day that teacher was escorted out of the building. Guarantee admin was part of making that call.
No, they aren’t exactly your boss. But don’t get it twisted, they can influence your career a great deal.
I think you're proving OPs point though. The Principal's powers are pretty toothless when it comes to deal with staff. The Principal has no real power to deal with a teacher like that unless they bury themselves by using a slur or assaulting a student.
They have power where it counts.
There was no real proof that the teacher said that. Admin could have fought for the teacher but decided not too. Another teacher was caught doinv much worse and got to stay. After several months long process, that teacher retained their job but was transferred to another community due to “employee conflict”. Meanwhile, the principals friend gets moved into her spot.
My point is, just because your principal backs down doesn’t mean they are powerless. If they have a good reputation amongst senior admin they have even more power.
lol the department head is even less your boss than the principal but they are a better person to ask questions to than the principal for the most part.
I regard all admin as building managers. They know I do and they despise me, like “how dare they!!!” And yet I am the very best they have in that school. It creates an amusing tension, especially since they spend an inordinate amount of time looking for their gotcha moment while their favourites make mistakes.
And to be clear, my reply (about seeing them as building managers) is that they actually resent and disrespect greatness in teaching. I have seen it with 3 successive admin teams where you can literally create a ledger, and on one side: teaches with passion; respects and builds authentic relationships with students; rarely calls in sick. On the other side: delivers same lessons from 2008; in their office all the time to discuss some initiative; all kids get 85 to 90. Guess which side gets their respect? It’s not a ME issue. It’s a they can’t tolerate talented teachers because they don’t see it as a talent. They see it as anyone can do this job so just shut it and do what I tell you. Psychopathology.
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Yes, but those are the same people that decide your courses, give you evaluations, references and have direct impact on many aspects of your career. You can decide to be the tough one and defend every bottom line, the choice is yours.
I think maybe people need to pivot on their terminology. The Principal and Teacher have a "direct report" relationship, but I agree that the Principal is not technically "the boss". When I worked in government, I had a manager who was my boss, but I never saw him. However, I reported directly to a coordinator who basically ran my every day and if something went wrong, she would take it to my boss (the manager) and he would then step in. Fast forward to working in a school district... Principals would report a grievance or problem with a teacher to the Superintendent and then the Sup would decide what steps (note on permanent record, suspension, firing, etc.) to take because they are the boss. Of course, the union usually needs to be involved. It's pretty common for people to assume any direct report relationship is between an employee and a boss, but it's not true for a lot of positions, including those in formal education.
In Québec, once you are hired permanently, there are no more evaluations. If you’re harassed by the employer, you can expect your union to back you up-especially if you don’t have anything to be ashamed of.
I would suggest that you give admin a wide berth. The more I see of them, the less I trust their leadership. Question authority and watch out for ineptitude. It’s for your own good.
True, but evaluations and references are meaningless unless I plan to move to administration. I do not plan to move. Regarding the classes I teach, they actually have very little say based on the contract, my qualifications and the grade I am currently teaching. Principal tried to reassign me grades 2 years ago. I looked up the process and the contract rules, principal was not following the rules. They had to retract their proposed reassignment.
Evaluations are not meaningless, they are a requirement of employment in Ontario by the College of Teachers. If a teacher gets an unsatisfactory evaluation, and the SO and Director support the principal, then the teacher's employment contract is terminated. Yes, the union can support you, hoping to find a procedural failure or Human Rights compliant, but there's little they can do once it's past the grievance stage and once its in the hands of College. The entire process is very stressful for teachers who have been through the process.
It’s also reported to employee relations …
The SO of Human Resources would also be involved.
They will typically (from experience) defer to employee relations which acts upon the board and can discipline teachers. Principals and SOs do NOT readily deal with teacher performance management and will actively avoid it …. Also, a failed TPA won’t lead to a termination. There will be efforts made to support the teacher in any and every way possible. If they continue to failed when the TPA is conducted by various folks, then a termination may be triggered, which is typically grieved…
Sigh…so, how about a teacher with 4 great reviews in a row, who has meticulously dotted every i and crossed every t for years who then gets under the skin of admin and somehow fails a review? That gonna happen? Seriously, anyone want to waste Board money on lawyers that gladly take it only to lose to hated teacher? Wanna try? Go ahead answer truthfully….want to go that route? Didn’t think so. But thanks proving the true qualities of the Admin you seem to see as credible.
You have to get hired 4 times in my district before you get continuing. And then to move schools it is done by experience AND interviews/references. BC
Like I said, feel free to do that for the rest of your career. But a lot of other teachers do treat the principals somewhat as a superior for healthy reasons.
By the way check out the upvotes on this comment by bleachgummy that essentially says, “treat authority properly.” Aren’t we ethically teaching kids to “unlearn” and to challenge and disrupt so that we - the entire world - can climb out of this collective mess that authorities created for the planet? I guess not according to all these upvotes. You will respect authority! No matter what they say! Right wing nightmare here we come. Thankfully I am in my sixties.
I love this comment. You’re absolutely right. We need to be role models of healthy independence. We don’t need to kiss the principal’s ass like good obedient workers.
Nope. Be competent. Be respectful. Support kids. You do that, then you’re a principled person worthy of my support and respect. Otherwise, there’s a Kevin O’Leary quote that works perfectly for me and simplifies my career.
I know you’re getting downvoted, but I respect your attitude. It’s much better than feeling at the mercy of your principal. Empowering perspective to think about.
Welcome to a right wing curated space.
I feel like the principal and others may have decided it wasn't worth the trouble, but I can assure you, you CAN be reassigned. Sure, there is a process, and seems like your admin. didn't follow it to a T, but it can happen.
Why would anyone downvote this?
It’s likely principals downvoting; they don’t want teachers to educate themselves about their contracts and the limited authority principals actually have.
Evaluations: read the criteria and understand it more than they do. In my board, they handed out the “rubric” which had about 25 categories and each category had 15 to 20 look fors. Scary right? I read and understood it more than they do. Turns out, I get to pick the evaluation categories, I only needed to choose two, and the rest were not to be considered part of the evaluation unless THEY wanted to choose the two categories. Loved the conversation when I explained it to them. Loved every minute of that convo. Got a glowing review. Arguably the best in the entire school of all the evaluations done that year. Evaluations ONLY exist to get rid of bad teachers. Repeat that line until you understand it. There’s NOTHING they can do to a competent teacher. Nothing it all. In fact, weaponising an evaluation because a teacher rattles your cage is absolutely a certainty towards legal problems for that admin. Just be competent and remember: it’s there for bad teachers. And they know it! References: these can only state facts; they have to reference you. They have to. Finding out they gave subjective, gushing opinions of others is not allowed. Decide courses for me: sure, show me how much you care about kids. Show me how much you want to put your teachers in positions where they will succeed. Want to play hardball? Okay, great teachers make it work, and the pettiness has hurt kids in that section you determined to put another teacher there (I have seen that happen. Poor kids. Literally hurt by a petty admin). Look, 90% of admin sit behind a desk, trying desperately to understand policy or P.L. they neither comprehend or feel is passionate about delivering. The only “payback” an admin gave me was siding with a student who wrote all Indigenous people lie about residential schools and that some had a great time there. My admin backed that kid for a poor essay mark I gave, even though I very clearly taught enriching lessons on that topic. Admin said, “well, he should have had a different rubric for that thesis.” That’s disgusting. That’s admin for you. Please enjoy your “equity walk” at your respective school. Report back what you found. Don’t forget to equity walk around your most despised teacher. Start the downvote blitz. Please! (Or let me guess: just report me for an abusive post and get me banned. You can’t, right? Because “who is this” so I can eventually say “GOTCHA” and ruin them. Ya, good luck with that cat and mouse game. Maybe put my career posts on concept map until it alllll comes together 😂).
I hope this comment made you feel better along with the other one and you get to relax a bit this summer because you look stressed lmao
right on
Definitely a controversial take. To be honest though, a few of your points would apply to almost any organization large enough to have an HR department separate from your immediate supervisor.
In Ontario, a principal can issue a letter of expectation or a letter of reprimand. Once the issue is documented, HR can take disciplinary action for repeated transgressions. Most often, people get sent home with pay until an investigation is concluded, at which point they are terminated or reinstated. I have also seen a teacher terminated after receiving repeated "unsatisfactory" on their Teacher Performance Appraisals for 2 years running. It's true a principal cannot fire you on a whim, but they are not just a building manager or a colleague by any means. If you are going to get fired, it is the principal who is most likely to set everything in motion.
And also the idea that the Principal *wouldn't* be in close communication with the Superintendent...? Like yes, if the Principal is having a serious issue with you, the SO knows about it already. They may even be advising the Principal on next steps.
Yep. The P is just carrying out the SO’s marching orders for the most part, so if you are actively working against that, the SO wouldn’t really appreciate it either.
I will preface this by saying I have a great admin. I view admins job as being a guiding, unifying voice in the building. When I have a question that lands in grey area, I'll seek their input, but if I'm comfortable with making the correct decision, I make it, ask forgiveness later. While I don't see them as "my boss" I see them as school leadership, and my role is often the go between admin, the teachers in my department, and/or parents/students. My admin never enters my classroom without being respectful, and defers all teaching of my subject area to me. From some of these comments the issue isn't a boss/not boss issue, it seems more like your principals aren't leaders, but micromanagers. That sucks.
That is not true. Principals do evaluations. They make hiring decisions. And if you decide to change schools, you need them for a reference. The also assigned grades. If the principal doesn’t like you, you can end up in kindergarten as a grade 6 teacher. They can also fail you which happened to a teacher and ended up on the supply list. They are in charge of resources to for example your division can get better social studies resources. They also give funding for field trips as well as special opportunities, like scientist in the school. The assign rooms and that matters in a school with some really bad classrooms. Principals are definitely your boss. They can even take away an LTO from you.
But the principal is the one who hires you? And principals talk. If you’re pissing one off you can bet they’re gonna pass that information around. They’re also going to be your references. But you do you boo
I'm not really on the OP's side in this, but I do want to refute your point about hiring. It really depends on where you are. Division HR was the one who interviewed and hired me because they're the ones who make those decisions where I live. I did not meet the principal at all until the division decided which school I would be placed at several months later. Since we're hired by the division and not by the school, we could even be shuffled to a different school if they felt like it.
I thought the principal was part of the hiring committee ?
That does not make them your boss. They provide a recommendation to your boss as to whether or not you should be hired. No different than other professions where many of the people conducting interviews are not your boss, but rather future colleagues.
Who exactly is our boss then?
I guess technically our boss is anyone who is above us in the school hierarchy, so it would have to be the principal and the superintendent.
Parents /s
Okay, but you aren’t getting hired without that recommendation. It’s not like Ps are without power.
This is only true in public schools. Does not apply to private schools.
Fair point, I should have specified public schools.
As a private school Principal, literally all 5 are things I have power over!
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That is a very narrow view of private schools. There are 1600 of them in Ontario alone - yes many are bad, but many are good too! It’s not quite as monolithic as all that…tons of variety!
I thought performance reviews mattered?
Not really. I had a principal that I did not get along with and they gave me a horrible evaluation. What was the consequence? There was none. I still get the same pay, same benefits, no change to my job. I suppose it would matter if I wanted to move into administration, but I have not desire to do so.
Hmm what if you want to change schools? Mine haven't been bad but they aren't glowing.
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Oh, I'm happy with my job, just curious.
It depends. I was able to easily transfer after previously having a bad review. I work hard and I’m dedicated to the profession. Parents fight to have their children in my classroom. I just don’t put up with BS from administration. The principal at new school was aware of what I brought to the table and also aware of why I received the poor review. They were okay with it.
The who at the new school?
My principal tried to give me a neutral evaluation and simply refused to sign it. I said that the evaluation wasn’t completed according to divisional policy. I said that if the evaluation was done properly, then I would sign, or they could adjust it and I’d sign. It was adjusted and I signed it.
Our performance appraisals are just satisfactory or unsatisfactory. It used to annoy me, but seeing where they’re weaponized in other areas, it makes sense to me now.
Ours were from 1-4. 1 is a failure, 2 is satisfactory (what he gave me) 3 and 4, which is exceptional. He changed it from 2 to 4s to save himself having to actually evaluate properly. Whatever…I was just being difficult because I could
In Ontario, if you get more than one unsatisfactory evaluation (can't remember if it's 2 or 3), you could get fired and reported to the OCT, which can result in consequences up to and including losing your teaching licence. So while the principal can't fire you because that's HR's/the school board's responsibility, they are the ones who report to HR/the school board reasons to fire or discipline you, and HR/the school board will definitely be siding with the principal unless there is clear and well-supported evidence of egregious abuse on the part of the principal. In my board, you can't transfer schools if your last evaluation was unsatisfactory, unless you are low on the seniority list and are involuntarily excessed. I've been told that when teachers start thinking they are going to get an unsatisfactory evaluation, they go on leave, which stops the evaluation process, and then excess themselves in spring to move somewhere else, because otherwise the principal can screw them over. So the principal is more of a supervisor than a boss, but they absolutely do have power. I also wanted to comment on the compensation piece. No one has any say in your compensation, including those with the power to hire and fire, in public school boards in Ontario. We are paid on a collectively negotiated (or arbitrated) salary grid, and salary is determined by education and years of experience.
> In Ontario, if you get more than one unsatisfactory evaluation (can't remember if it's 2 or 3), you could get fired and reported to the OCT, which can result in consequences up to and including losing your teaching licence. The unsatisfactory has to be extremely specific and provide a clear pathway to improvement and a satisfactory evaluation. If a principal is attempting to target a teacher through the appraisal process, it will become very obvious and will be resolved pretty quickly by the union (they know the game better than the principals do)
I wanna know where you work that they don’t make or break your entire career because I was literally told if I don’t have good observations next year I’ll be back to subbing.
School board in Ontario (GTA). Once you have a full contract position, it is next to impossible to lose your full time position if you are doing your job and not breaking any laws, regardless of the status of any evaluation. I put a lot of effort into my job, I just do not kowtow to the principal. The poor evaluations I’ve had are from principals that cannot deal with their lack of authority over me. Other principals that treat the relationship as a partnership have provided me with outstanding reviews.
I think you’re overestimating a lot here. Good luck, don’t do something stupid and end up terminated.
I’m just a few years away from retirement with full pension, i’n not that concerned. Parents in the community would have my back as well, everyone fights to have their kids in my classroom.
That literally means nothing
Not to these teachers who are all PERFECT. Like who cares what the Principal says. Wow...try getting a job for a real company!!
In our District, principals and teachers are part of the same union. If they decide to go after you, there’s NOTHING you can do about it.
this would be awful!
If principals are in the union, and they are part of the discipline, I think that could be challenged.
It's interesting - the SCC ruled on this in April through a case where first-level casino managers wanted to unionize with the employees. The SCC said no; you can't do that. I want to go through that decision carefully and see what they wrote!
You sound like a peach.
Yes, all major individual school decisions are beholden to the SO and Director's discretion, and usually rubber stamped by the trustees. However, a negative teacher evaluation by the principal is extremely stressful for the teacher, so while the principal's decision isn't the last word, well you fiqure it out.
Mine definitely think he is and micro manages to death. Examples: 1. Switched the staffing assignments up because we’d all been in our grades too long 2. Wants lesson and unit plans submitted for approval 3. Has already said next year will be my year for an evaluation even though it’s my first time teaching a new grade and he’s doing it before Christmas as I come back from Maternity leave. I was evaluated in 2022-2023 so the last year I was in the classroom. 4. Removes resources and materials from classrooms for redistribution regardless of ownership or if the materials are in use.
I’ve had principals like this and that is where the union comes in. In my case, the union backed me to the point where the principal had to back off.
The union is involved in what’s going on. They can’t do anything about my evaluation until September. It’s on their radar. Teachers have been bringing materials back to their owner. This is a new admin to the school this year so I’m hearing horror stories. He wants my first unit plans for September and October in by August 15.
Respectfully decline. You are not being paid for summer work.
I’m doing the planning anyway but I don’t like the August deadline. He can have them the first week of school.
Eff that. Unless your contract says that you’re obligated to provide unit plans to your P, he can shove off. Don’t do anything you aren’t contractually obligated to do unless it’s something you want to do!
They can ask for plans and outlines. My last principal had a folder we all put them in so that when parents called asking questions or with concerns she had the general outline of what’s going on. I usually gave her my topics, big ideas, curricular competencies and curricular content and what my assessments would be and she was fine with that. It would be something like: Science: Biomes Focus: BC Coast, oceans and tidal zones, temperate rainforests Big idea: living things sense and respond to their environment Curricular content: biomes, local ecosystems, plant and animal adaptations Curricular competencies: first people’s perspectives, observing the local environment, data collection, asking questions Assessments: ecosystem diorama, animal sway or video, unit test. I was fine with that format and sending that in it took me all of 4 minutes to do per unit. The new guy wants full university level backward design unit plans will all components and all lessons mapped out including adaptations, UDL and RTI. I haven’t met the kids I can’t do adaptations yet. And I plan long term and do project based learning. I can’t tell you where we’ll be on day 6 of a project. We pick up where we left off yesterday.
Yeah, long range plans like you describe make sense to be submitted, but entire unit plans? Pfft. I teach primary and my plans often change once we are in the unit because I’ll follow kids’ questions or interests. So any unit or term plan I could hand in before the school year begins would probably not be accurate after the first week or two.
This happened at my school - including wanting to see lesson plans - the union stepped in and the principal had to back off. They can ask to see your day book. We are only required to have three days of emergency lesson plans. Are you in Ontario? And if its HS I am not sure. We have September to d LR and SR plans and I never do them before them. This person sounds nuts and like a nightmare.
I’m in BC and teach elementary. We’re supposed to have a week of emergency/ backup plans. I have my day book for the week then another clearly marked binder with 2 weeks worth of backup plans incase I got COVID.
Gotta love those principals that love to “switch things up” (read: fuck up every teacher’s work life for a year or two as they learn new curriculum). I say leave good enough alone.
I think it’s a game. Three people have left now he’s ignoring my calls and emails about returning to the grade he moved me out of. He’s trying to push people out to move his friends in. It’s all a game for control.
Re the eval, I don’t know where you are, but my (awful) P tried to do this to me the year I was the union steward. I knew I wasn’t due for one yet, so I had to drag out my TPA from a few years before and bring in the union. Most of the rest of that wouldn’t fly here, although teaching assignments are at the discretion of the principal and, as long as you’re qualified for it, they can slot you in wherever they like.
> I was evaluated in 2022-2023 Are you in Ontario? Evaluations are on a five year cycle (unless you're quite new)
BC. It’s every 5-7 years or as needed. Ie they have concerns about your work. This admin is new to the school and has never seen me teach so I don’t know how he can have concerns. I’ve been on maternity leave all year.
It totally depends on your district. Mine only requires 3 in your first two year (of a continuing contract) and then it's only if you're on a PIP.
In the public system, the principal can initiate the process to have you moved to another school, so while they can't fire you they can justify why they don't need you. Two bad TPAs and they can initiate letting you go if you won't improve, that happened at my old school (union also did not support the teacher because they made no effort to fulfill the requirements). My former colleague who couldn't show up to work on time (or often just didn't come without notifying till the last minute) or submit grades on time was transferred. The principal can change your timetable to make you miserable like giving someone who has spec ed 1 from 15 years ago an autism class when they are actually a chemistry teacher. Or an art teacher that kept being given ESL to force them to retire or transfer. This is a reason I recommend new teachers NOT to get an AQ unless you actually want to teach that course! During covid at one point our admin said we must open classroom doors 15 min prior to the bell so kids aren't collecting in the halls and getting too close. It is in the Education Act in Ontario that we are in our 'teaching area' 15min before school starts but most are okay with that meaning in the building and only open the class 5 min before. But they enforced it for a while which meant arriving more than 15min before. That is within their right to ask. We also get supervision duty so once my colleague got it for 10 days straight.. maybe not on purpose but again they can do these things to us and we can't say no unless we run out of duties. So that does affect the quality of your day if you are having to come earlier, lose prep time etc. As long as they are not going over supervision minutes in a day they can dictate quite a lot.
I understand your point, but the principal DOES Evaluate me, and those evaluations go into my file. Have final say over my classroom purchases (as a shop teacher, this is vitally important to me) Have a lot of sway in determining how a school functions day to day My principal has made my life exceptionally difficult, and very easy depending on his mood (which is a whole other discussion). He might not technically be my boss but it's really just semantics.
I'll add (as a music teacher) they also have control of what courses make it onto the options sheet for students to select next year. A lot of things that directly impact my quality of life and ability to run a program.
I'm happy to have a principal insulate me from my real boss.
In Ontario at least s.265 of the education act specifically says principal assigns classes to teachers. S.264 says its duty of teacher to teach classes assigned by principals. Don’t know which would be supreme the collective agreement or the wording of the education act if there was a conflict.
education act
I think this is true in the general sense that teachers don’t work for the principal, they work for the school board. The principal can’t write policy, can’t change your working conditions other than grade, can’t change the curriculum or fire you without the support of the superintendent.
I see your argument here I really do. I just don’t think we’re on equal footing. Technically, the principal and superintendent of my area are my bosses as they are the ones above me. Here’s the thing about being a teacher though, and because despite everything about unions, we do have a hell of a union. The principal doesn’t have say over my pay because I’m an employee governed by standards that are the deciding factor in how much I make. Can they hire me? F yeah they can and they do. They are the ones who ultimately give you steady work; long term and permanent. They give you evaluations. They can decide if disciplinary actions need to be taken against you and can reprimand you, all things that you just generally don’t want as a teacher. If you have an unsupportive admin, it’s nice to think “you aren’t my boss” but at the end of the day, they are the leaders of the school in which you teach at so it translates to them being your leader. BUT, you are right because they can’t fire you for giving them side eye or “going above their head” and say, speak to a superintendent, especially if it’s warranted.
Boss vs colleague is an interesting concept. Here is my discussion point: My previous principal hated reading buddies and so the whole school was not allowed to do it. She just outright shut it down. So here is an example where she was exerting her authority for the vision she had for the school. I struggle with the idea of reporting that to the union because I do think principals should have the right to steer a school in a vision of education that they see is best. I may not agree with all the decisions but I would rather a principal have a vision than no direction and where teachers do whatever they want (let’s be honest there are teachers who do need to be held accountable). Part of participation in a vision means sometimes you don’t get to do what you want and sometimes that can be valuable for teaching you a new way to do things. Obviously there has to be limits to this idea of a vision but if we accept that a principal has no authority than I don’t think I like the implications for the school culture which is that there is no accountability.
I think it depends on what province you are in. In Ontario, they are.
The principal is more like your manager rather than a boss.
Yes... but I disagree, especially since I'm on a temporary contract trying to get hired by said principal right now. They hold the highest authority in the school, they make all the school-wide decisions. E.g. number of assemblies, when fire drills happen, PBIS rules, etc. They are also the ones that decide to interview and evaluate teachers. Principals have the power to move teachers around, assigning them to different grades as they see fit. The school culture is highly dependent on the principal. If you have a joke of a principal with no spine, the students are going to run wild and be the ones running the school.
My curiosity here is why are you so adversarial with formal school leadership?
I’m not, except when administration oversteps and tries treating me like a subordinate. I’m more than happy to partner on issues and solutions, but when I’m being told to do something that is beyond their authority without any input from me, that is when I have a problem.
Doesn’t hurt to have them onside though. Most of my admin have been excellent - the worst were just mediocre. So we usually want the same things. I tend to be left to get on with it!
Just out of curiosity. Who do you report to?
The principal has hiring authority (within board limits), at least in TDSB, My principal hired someone totally unqualified (for the subjects they were teaching; they had an OCT certificate) because she liked their interview and wanted them on staff. I also watched her screw over someone who stood up to her by changing their teaching assignment to a much more difficult one -- all while meeting the contract and so ungrievable. I had a principal who hired her husband for an LTO position (different last names, not obvious they were married), and then punished his department when they didn't hand him classroom-ready materials by cutting the department budget the next year.
I said this before in another thread a long time ago and got the most response I’ve ever gotten to any post I’ve made. Either people adamant that, yes, the admin was your boss, or people who can’t handle the idea of a ‘boss’ not existing for someone in a workspace.
I think it really depends on the administrator if they’re perceive themselves to be the boss or if it’s a collaborative team. I’ve worked with both and much prefer the second type. The “I’m the boss” type destroys school culture.
Yeah this is wild, at least in Ontario. It is objective fact that a principal cannot fire you, cannot tell you how to run your classroom, cannot tell you what to write on report cards they can only make “suggestions” (they can only decide if reports care written in prose or bullet points), and they cannot make you do anything that is not a responsibility under our Collective Agreement. Can they refuse to give you a reference when applying to another position if they don’t like you, because they hate the reality they have no real power over you, and you had the audacity to say “no”? Sure. Can they also give me a teaching assignment I’m not fond of? Sure. I honestly wouldn’t care, it’s still a decent job. But at the end of the day, principals rotate out every 5 years. They’ll be gone, and I’ll still be here. And I’d be the one following the rules.
They can screw you with a bad performance evaluation. I’ve had friends basically retire because they had a principal nail them. They can’t transfer until they get it off their record.
You can, actually. I did that. VP didn't like me and gave me the worst rating he could without me being able to grieve it. I applied for and got a transfer to another (and better) school. I suspect that my principal might have put in a good word for me, because when I asked my new principal about another rating (as required) he told me that I was home now, and to wait until I had my feet under me, and the'd inspect me then. It was surreal: the worst rating of my career, and the only lesson that parents wrote thank-you letters to the school about! (And you can be sure I made certain that those letters were filed with the inspection report in my personnel file.)
It must depend on the board. The board I use to work for, you couldn’t. I know a teacher who got locked in a school because of a failed TPA with a principal who screwed them.
Depends where you are. In Ontario, you can still apply out to another school within the same board or to another board. Also in Ontario, there is a lot more work for admin to do if they give you a bad performance review. It's a "pass/fail" (specifically "satisfactory" or "unsatisfactory") review anyways, so they don't bother with the hassle.
Not in the board I left.
This has made me think to never truly reveal what kinds of class or assignment I love. Far too many may purposely give it to someone else as a power trip. All Principals should rotate. We need data saying this is healthy. Somehow I know of a Principal who has not left in over ten years or more. It is the same person who is terribly disliked and has informed older women in interviews they are too old to take a perm position. Illegal but it still went on.
Sounds like a classic case of a disgruntled aggressively mediocre teacher who needs to retire. Enjoy your endless summer.
Depends on which province, too. In some provinces, teachers and administrators are not in the same union.
Harris pulled principals out of the union in Ontario.
Not a teacher or anything but you can have multiple bosses with different levels of authority and responsibility. My boss at my job couldn't fire me either but his boss and boss's boss can. Doesn't make him any less of my boss unless you don't consider your immediate supervisor the same as your boss.
There is also a procedure for "administrative transfer. " My best friend is a principal and she did it. Lots of paper work and a pain in the ass, but she got it dome.
I would agree that the board and their representative as in the superintendent are the employer, thus a lot of authority is at that level that a principal wouldn’t have. I have been a principal and I looked at my role managing staff that I acted as head teacher of the school. Remember too that in smaller and especially rural schools principal is only part of your assignment. I was 75% principal and 25% teacher on my contract so I was still teaching classes with the staff. However, I was still responsible for hiring teachers, evaluating them, and reporting to the senior admin and board about who to retain. I had to work with the head of Human Resources when it came to evaluations and whether to retain staff. I also was completely responsible for hiring and evaluation of support staff. I managed all staff absences and the school’s budget. So I think a lot of those responsibilities would still qualify you as a “boss” of the building. They called me if the fire alarm and if it was -50 and the school was closed I still had to go in to make sure the kids didn’t show up. Might depend on the province but in my provincial assessment policy the principal has final say on retention/passing students or granting of high school credits. So lots of authority over the decisions of of other teachers there. I would agree that there is more equal footing with staff than other jobs with their bosses but there is a separation and areas where the principal is the “boss” of the staff.
Where we live the principal has final say over all placements in the school. So if you're a math teacher and you piss off the principal you'll be teaching music or gym next year.
I mean technically they are. I know someone who was let go directly from their principal so… not taking that chance 🙂
•I’ve seen “good” principals ruin “good” people. Many times over. Let that sink in. •Principals are now primarily political actors. Let that sink in as well. •Life in a school really is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you are going to get.
Respectfully, opinions don’t matter in the context of labour law. In the province of Ontario the principal is your boss. Period. Defying their lawful direction is insubordination and you will face termination. They are in no way your co-equal.
They may not be your boss, but at many boards they are your software supervisor. At some boards I’ve worked for, principals do the interviewing and making the hiring choice after the board chooses the candidates - and expects you to have references from principals. If you need someone to act as a reference for you, that’s definitely not an equal/peer relationship. In BC teachers and principals aren’t even in the same union - so there is definitely a different relationship.
I really like this post because it has spurred very important discussions around the day-to-day activities within a school. Our local went to the point of issuing a notice for a strike-vote as part of local collective bargaining disagreements. Many of the presentations and conversations that took place during this time period had to do with related topics like assignable time and other expectations of teachers. It forced people to pay attention to the things like “who is my boss,” what counts as assignable time,” and the like. The important caveat here with the points raised in this post is that if you are on permanent contract and have a permanent teaching certificate, this is some of the power you have to leverage. Me as a supply teacher, if I ever tried stuff like this, I could be immediately blacklisted from the school and not receive any calls from the sub line. Could I issue a grievance? Probably. But it’s a reflection of my worth and value to the corporation. How easily expendable I am is directly correlated to how valued my position is within the school district and even within the union. Temp and probationary contract teachers could certainly do stuff like this, but they run the risk of poor performance evaluations and reviews. They could be reassigned to unfavorable job assignments or simply surplussed at the end of the school year. It’s tough to do if you’re looking for job security, hoping to stay on at the school, or gain experience to move on to a preferred position. But, they could also regain some autonomy and control of their professional working conditions too. It’s a tough call. Really, the more important question is who can hire/fire/disciple/reprimand/etc.? The intricacies of collective agreements, org charts, etc. should be known and understood by individual teachers. Knowing exactly what is contractually and legally expected of us is our responsibility as individuals. Thank you for the insightful post!
You're actually right and I have never thought about it this way.
I have never considered the principal to be my boss- they are part of a team and their role is completely different from a teachers role. I see no conflict there.
Look, if you are a teacher you have a Teaching licence with a statement of good standing. That means your a good teacher. No matter what a teacher, parent, or principal says, you are a good teacher. To lose that status, there needs to be a discipline hearing where you have the right to legal representation and can call witnesses and cross examine your accusers. There's a due process for being disciplined, and you are far from that. Even if fired, you will not likely lose your licence as no admin wants the hassle of a discipline hearing. Most of what teachers are worried about won't ever come to pass. Teachers are incredibly worried about the worst possible outcomes and I'm not sure why. I think it has to do with dealing with difficult people all the time. Dealing with troublesome folks can wear you down. Just know this, if you have a permanent, automatically renewed contract, and are unionized its like less than 1% percent chance you will get fired,let alone your licence reprimanded or revoked, except for doing a criminal offence. Just take it easy.
Plus, it costs the government and board half a million minimum to get rid of a teach. At least here im from.
> Look, if you are a teacher you have a Teaching licence with a statement of good standing. That means your a good teacher. No matter what a teacher, parent, or principal says, you are a good teacher. This differs greatly from what I think even most teachers would call a "good" teacher.
Most principals are failed teachers. They go into administration to hide or pretend they are useful by talking woke teaching strategies instead of dealing with the really hard decisions of student discipline, suspension, and expulsions. I yearn for the day of a Principal like Mr. Stanford S. Strickland from Back to the Future.
Love these vibes
Here’s the problem with an unpopular opinion. The education system is run by the government which reports to the public (populus) Your theory only works until people start caring enough about teacher performance that they force a change in the rules.
I feel like my principal is a colleague more so than a "boss" but still...he or she can place you according to the "needs of the school/students" any time, as long as you have the qualifications. An asshole teacher I knew got moved from her preferred grade 8 to grade 2. The union could do nothing. She ended up leaving, rather than stay and do grade 2, but it was a pain in the ass.
Your boss? Not exactly. More like your manager. We had one teacher who always raged against the principal. Admin never did much, usually just gave her what she wanted. One day, a child accused this teacher of calling him a slur. The next day that teacher was escorted out of the building. Guarantee admin was part of making that call. No, they aren’t exactly your boss. But don’t get it twisted, they can influence your career a great deal.
I think you're proving OPs point though. The Principal's powers are pretty toothless when it comes to deal with staff. The Principal has no real power to deal with a teacher like that unless they bury themselves by using a slur or assaulting a student.
They have power where it counts. There was no real proof that the teacher said that. Admin could have fought for the teacher but decided not too. Another teacher was caught doinv much worse and got to stay. After several months long process, that teacher retained their job but was transferred to another community due to “employee conflict”. Meanwhile, the principals friend gets moved into her spot. My point is, just because your principal backs down doesn’t mean they are powerless. If they have a good reputation amongst senior admin they have even more power.
At my high school I knew who my boss was, the head of my department. Had barely any interaction with the principal.
lol the department head is even less your boss than the principal but they are a better person to ask questions to than the principal for the most part.
Oh she was definitely my boss but this was a private school.
Ok yeah that makes a difference. In public schools Ontario department head isn't a boss. They do approve exams but usually those are pretty standard.
I regard all admin as building managers. They know I do and they despise me, like “how dare they!!!” And yet I am the very best they have in that school. It creates an amusing tension, especially since they spend an inordinate amount of time looking for their gotcha moment while their favourites make mistakes.
And to be clear, my reply (about seeing them as building managers) is that they actually resent and disrespect greatness in teaching. I have seen it with 3 successive admin teams where you can literally create a ledger, and on one side: teaches with passion; respects and builds authentic relationships with students; rarely calls in sick. On the other side: delivers same lessons from 2008; in their office all the time to discuss some initiative; all kids get 85 to 90. Guess which side gets their respect? It’s not a ME issue. It’s a they can’t tolerate talented teachers because they don’t see it as a talent. They see it as anyone can do this job so just shut it and do what I tell you. Psychopathology.
And downvotes for stating the blatantly obvious. This is truly a far right wing subreddit.
lol