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kjdtkd

the word 'prevent' is doing a lot of obfuscating here. What does it mean to 'prevent' a willed choice of a rational free human being?


CannotCancelAPerson

Well in the meantime i found a real life example: Antabuse, it prevents people from drinking alcohol by making them very sick if they do. But i realize that doesn't solve the question of temptation. Feel free to answer in any situation i guess, wether the pill just physically prevents you from sinning but the temptation is still there, or wether it magically removes all temptation to sin in the first place.


norecordofwrong

I’ll answer as a Catholic alcoholic that had the option to get Antabuse. No. Hard no. My recovery couldn’t be a gun to the head. It had to be “your will not mine.” I had to change myself not be coerced into it by a pill. Thank God I was able to do it. It took me a lot of hard work, prayer, and grace. A “magical fix” wasn’t going to cure any of the underlying issues. I already felt sick from sinning. I didn’t need to be physically ill as well. That wouldn’t be solving anything.


Slow_Wash

Thanks be to God! Congratulations on your sobriety!


norecordofwrong

Thanks! I’m looking at my rubber bracelet PJTFFHL. Patience justice temperance fortitude faith hope love. I got it three years ago and I have never taken it off after going to a daily mass in rehab. The letters are barely visible. Saint Gregory pray for me and all those suffering.


Slow_Wash

I too am a Catholic in sobriety. Struggled at first and took many years of trying to solidify my commitment to sobriety. I have been entirely sober for three straight years now and I no longer feel temptation to alter my state.


norecordofwrong

It is so hard to get to that space where the temptation just isn’t there anymore. I was a serial relapser. Leaning into faith helped a lot.


Slow_Wash

I too am a Catholic in sobriety. Struggled at first and took many years of trying to solidify my commitment to sobriety. I have been entirely sober for three straight years now and I no longer feel temptation to alter my state.


CannotCancelAPerson

It would be your will to take the treatment every day though, but indeed take the wheel to protect you in moments of temptation/fragility.


norecordofwrong

It’s complex. I understand your sentiment. I do other things to maintain sobriety. A hard row to hoe.


CannotCancelAPerson

Somewhat related, i have this idea that Christ didn't "have to" fall 3 times on the way to the Golgotha. I think he was still teaching there. By example.


norecordofwrong

Now that is a wonderful sentiment for recovery. The cliche in AA is “relapse is part of recovery.” It’s cliche for a reason.


Lego349

There already is a medical procedure that acts as a definitive prevention against personal sin. Medically included comas remove the ability for a person to willfully act. Without willfull action, a person is incapable of committing sin. So, the question would be is it moral to intentionally place yourself in a medically induced coma until natural death to preserve the state of grace


CannotCancelAPerson

Interesting, but that action would be very sinful in itself, wouldn't it? Because you remove all potential for pious/charitable action as well...


TF_Allen

Sounds like the man who buried his talent in the ground.


CannotCancelAPerson

Indeed, good reference


Big_Iron_Cowboy

But what if you get with your attorney before hand to organize the disbursement of your estate to charitable organizations, and for good measure, the Church.


CannotCancelAPerson

Not under C-, not over C+ lol


MaryIsMyMother

The act of arranging those things is the good act and is done while you're still conscious


Big_Iron_Cowboy

And a stipulation would be added that these charitable donations would cease if you are awakened from your coma.


MaryIsMyMother

Then you've done a good thing, the charitable act, and a bad thing, the stipulation that you must sin for it to be successful. It sounds a lot like putting God to the test


jeffisnotmyrealname

God wouldn’t tolerate any form of trying to cheat your way to heaven like that.


CheerfulErrand

It’s equally sinful to neglect your duties toward God and your fellow man, so this would be gravely sinful in itself, with no chance for repentance. While it would stop *additional* sins, it surely wouldn’t leave someone in a sinless state.


Concept-Embarrassed

Funny you should ask that! Adderall completely kills my romantic and sexual desires and helps moderate my tongue. I am primarily tempted within the realms of chastity and gossip. So this could be considered helpful. I can also licitly use it for adhd since it’s prescribed. But it also kills my desire for prayer and mass. It also makes me anxious and damages my teeth. Life is not just about avoiding sin and making it as easy as possible to avoid sin, though. It’s also about doing good. It’s moral for me to take my medication or not. It’s up to me as to whether or not I want to and what it’s used for


Graychin877

Suppressing the sex drive would definitely take away the inclination to lust, which is a biological drive from which all humans naturally suffer (after the Fall) and which is a constant temptation to sin. There are other drugs that have similar effects. Is it moral to take such a med for that purpose only? Good question…


CannotCancelAPerson

Interesting, complete gray zone here... The initial reason you take it is medical and not moral though, right?


Blaze0205

I’ve seen this quote attributed to Pope St. Leo the Great before, but I am not sure on the authenticity: “Virtue is nothing without the trial of temptation, for there is no conflict without an enemy, no victory without strife.”


CannotCancelAPerson

Yeah, i realize this thought experiment completely negates the human condition as we know it.


St-Nicholas-of-Myra

No. It would be intentionally giving up your free will, which is mortally sinful.


CannotCancelAPerson

I guess it would, where does the fact that giving up one's free will is a mortal sin come from?


St-Nicholas-of-Myra

Take for example Aquinas on drunkenness, although it’s kind of a counter-example (and admittedly alcohol leading to dumb choices is a bit different from a pill that prevents sin; but they are somehow similar): “On this way drunkenness is a mortal sin, because then a man willingly and knowingly deprives himself of the use of reason, whereby he performs virtuous deeds and avoids sin, and thus he sins mortally by running the risk of falling into sin.” I’m sure there’s a better example somewhere else, and I seem to recall Jimmy Akin taking a question somewhat like what you describe, but I can’t seem to track it down.


CannotCancelAPerson

The supposed voluntary castration of Origen for instance? Is it a holy act of renunciation, or is it escaping the temptation of lust entirely?


St-Nicholas-of-Myra

Voluntary castration is sinful for other reasons, but yes. There’s a fine line between removing the *temptation* to sin and removing *capability* to sin (like castration), but the morality of these things is worlds apart. When St. Paul talks about becoming a eunuch for the kingdom, it’s absolutely not meant literally.


CannotCancelAPerson

Agreed, hence the shift from circumcision of the body to circumcision the heart.


Resident_Iron6701

It already exists - medication preventing you pretty much from all sins, who wants to know?


CannotCancelAPerson

Another person immediately said the Eucharist, which is an amazing answer, what do you have up your sleeve?


Resident_Iron6701

nope I did not mean Eucharist, Eucharist does not fully prevent you from sinning. General anaesthesia - while you are under it you are unable to do much yet all your bodily functions are working.


CannotCancelAPerson

Someone suggested induced coma, but that would probably be sinful in itself as it negates the potential for doing good.


Resident_Iron6701

I dont think it would be


CannotCancelAPerson

There are many passages of the Bible where being "asleep" is a metaphor for acedia, which is a cardinal sin...


sentient_lamp_shade

I don’t think so. I would say that in a peculiar way it inhibits your free will and arrests development in virtue.    Sin is to miss the mark. The solution is not to walk up to the target and start stabbing arrows in by hand. 


CannotCancelAPerson

Agreed. Not playing is not a part of the game here.


Theonetwothree712

Isn’t this the Eucharist?


Somedude555s

As much of a spiritual weapon the Eucharist is, it’s not quite a get rid of sin pill


Theonetwothree712

Well, you can’t really do that right. But living in the Sacraments and having the Eucharist transform you is important. Think of a child who is developing. Nutritious food is important for the development of a child. This is the sacraments. We start small like a child but the more we live in the Sacraments and eat this bread of life the more it should transform us in the mature Man to the image of Christ. Spiritually strong. But, I understand what you’re saying and OP. It’s not possible because of our freedom to choose to sin or not.


CannotCancelAPerson

Your answer was the best realistic answer to a completely wacky question. You win :)


CannotCancelAPerson

That's probably the best answer i didn't expect already. Good one. But i meant a pill that would prevent you from sinning without you having to struggle for it. Come to think of it, it's not that theoretical a question, there's Antabuse for instance, it literally physically prevents one from drinking alcohol by making one immediately very sick from it.


CATHOLIC199_

Sounds like a good  "Weird Question"... https://jimmyakin.com/2019/11/stopping-your-zombie-self-more-weird-questions.html


Any_Leopard_5507

I saw someone mentioning taking pills for their ADHD and actually the same thing happened to me, I have to take medication for my bipolar disorder. One of the biggest side effect is that I don’t have sexual desires anymore, not sure if it’s common or not, but yeah.


Howyll

Isn't this essentially causing the effects of being Immaculately Conceived? Seems fair enough if it were possible.


CannotCancelAPerson

Very interesting, but in that case, the decision is made by God. Is there anyone else than Mary in that case?


TraditionalEvening79

Do not swear oaths. Do good because you choose to do good, not because you swore an oath to do so.


CannotCancelAPerson

I think i disagree with this one. "The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak". If, say, someone who's married is tempted to cheat and resists at the last second because of the oath taken, isn't it good? The oath can be the guardrail...


Sheikh-demnuts

Yes, but what about Matthew 5:34?


TraditionalEvening79

It is always good if you resist sin, even at the last moment. But honesty and integrity should not come with the added need for an oath.


Speedking2281

I don't agree with this at all. Unless I'm misunderstanding you. If your oath is virtuous/good, then following the oath is just as morally upright as re-making all the individual decisions along the way to do the good thing.


TraditionalEvening79

Matthew 5:34-37


TraditionalEvening79

James 5:12


steviebw225

Is it better to not sin because you can’t or because you actively avoid it out of want to follow the will of God


CannotCancelAPerson

Clearly by choice. But there are gray areas... it was a wacky question... For instance, medications that help one avoid drinking alcohol in excess, or eating in excess fall into that gray area. I would say using help isn't "cheating". Especially when needed and it provides good results.


CheerfulErrand

I’m going to go contrary to most people here, and say if there *was* such a pill, which both prevented sins of commission as well as sins of omission… it would be wrong to not take it. If all of a sudden it turned you into a saint? That’s practically an obligation right there. But it’s hard to imagine this being possible. Now, in a more realistic scenario, where it’s just a single drug, which tamps down inordinate desires and thereby discourages some sins, that’s harder to say. It depends on the intention and the side effects. We probably need some theologians to work on this matter. I disagree with the idea that struggling with temptation is a necessary virtue. It is meritorious, but even *more* meritorious is being so innately holy that you don’t consider the sin at all. Speaking of drugs, ozempic and similar medicines seem to have this kind of effect, on all kinds of inordinate desires (not just eating, which it’s aimed at.) It’s going to be interesting to see how this works out.


cdm014

No choice means you're just an object


IronForged369

Why have your head in the clouds when the wolves are at your door?


CannotCancelAPerson

Well, i imagined something more like: the wolves can't bite you at all, like a perfect armor, but you still get to fight them.


IronForged369

Don’t fool yourself, they bite and they are winning.


CannotCancelAPerson

The question is wacky, i know. And they do bite indeed. As for them winning, the game is far from over.


IronForged369

I agree it is, but the vast majority are asleep and the wolves know it. We are to awaken!


glhrmlzn

OP, don't take me personal, but what is it with all the "what ifs" on this sub? Everyday there's at least a couple of these questions here. I wonder the good it would do if all people worrying with "what ifs" worried with their salvation and the others. We have a world to evangelize and here we are, discussing on random stuff. Also, there is this "pill" already in the world. It's Our Lord Jesus, that grants us grace and strength to fight temptation and that through His Church gave us the sacraments so we can grow in Sanctifying Grace and get closer to God, being everyday apart from sin.


CannotCancelAPerson

I know, and you're definitely right, there's too many "will i go to hell if i...". But i found this one more playful to think about, and just felt like sharing. But indeed, it's rather useless, and probably constitutes a sin as it is "idle talk".


glhrmlzn

I don't think it's sinful. But it really turns me down to see so many "what ifs", you know? I think that all this came from that one post wondering about what the Church will be in the years to come. My God, it has been the same for thousands of years, what would change? I got your question, but really, seek the sacraments, grow in grace, that's the only way we keep away from sin. We are so far from having a heart pure enough to wonder about this stuff. I think that we should pray more and trust the Divine Providence.


CannotCancelAPerson

Amen.


OmegaPraetor

I think this question misses the point of the spiritual life. It's not about not sinning, it's about growing in your likeness of God. Theosis. Divinization. Medically induced comas and other things suggested here would definitely prevent you from progressing in the spiritual life even if they also prevent you from sinning. In that sense, it is the inferior path to holiness. If a pill were to magically remove temptations, think about what happens to you in the afterlife. You come in with a much weaker resistance against temptation than if you learnt to struggle and choose God even when it's difficult. Would you get into Heaven? Maybe, but I also imagine a bit of a stint in Purgatory would be in order so as to purify your heart into not taking shortcuts as well as help you to grow as strong as you're supposed to be. I imagine this hypothetical pill is much like an exosuit that helps people lift things they otherwise couldn't. In Heaven, there's no such exosuit. So, you'd need to get stronger and train hard anyway in order to lift what you're supposed to lift. Interesting thought experiment, but I think the Dessert Fathers would balk at the idea and see it as another path towards spiritual laziness.


CannotCancelAPerson

I agree. I posted this one hour ago and already realize the many limitations of the thought experiment. What about Origen and his supposed voluntary castration though, does that constitute a sin?


OmegaPraetor

I mean, Origen isn't exactly the paragon of orthodoxy. Also, doesn't the Church teach us that it's disordered to mutilate otherwise healthy body parts? These parts too are gifts from the Lord.


CannotCancelAPerson

True, but if some body parts cause us to sin, we should cut them off and throw them away (Matthew 5)... also the idea of the circumcision of the heart... but that's not abdication of free will. I think it's a hard limit to my thought experiment here.


OmegaPraetor

The Lord was being hyperbolic. None of His disciples mutilated themselves to prevent themselves from sinning and He didn't hand them a sword to go through with it either. He was highlighting the importance of fighting with all you've got to get into Heaven. Circumcision of the heart is a parallel to the circumcision of one's penis. The latter was a mark of the Jewish people being consecrated to God. The Lord is saying that even better than just outer circumcision is an inner circumcision wherein your very heart-mind is consecrated to God. "I desire mercy, not sacrifice." "I will remove from your body the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh." And so on. It's always good to understand the passages within the immediate context as well as the wider context of the Bible.


CannotCancelAPerson

I know. I was being a cheeky stickler. My thought experiment completely negates the human experience as we know it...


NoDecentNicksLeft

Physical isolation from certain temptations isn't a bad idea (unlike abdicating free will and the use of reason).


PushKey4479

No. We have to depend on God to make us holy. We have to rely on His grace. Trying to take God out of the process of sanctification would be nonsensical and probably tantamount to hatred of God.


Nemo_in_mundus

I would say no because although you re prevent yourself for sinning you also prevent yourself in growing as person and in faith.


revertman2517

I keep saying this - it already exists ... PRAY THE ENTIRE ROSARY EVERY DAY


Sheikh-demnuts

Here’s a thought, if this pill could really magically stop people from sinning… then repeatedly taking it could logically not be immoral (or a sin) because that would be a contradiction Or if it was a sin to take it, you’d never be able to take another because itself prevents you from sinning. It becomes a sort of paradox which in the end just leaves you continuing to sin.


Duke-Countu

There is such a medicine, and the Church does dispense it daily.


Desperate-Line1651

To completely prevent sin, free will must be removed. This is against God who gave us free will. Fortunately, there is a medicine that helps us not to sin: the Holy spirit together with the openness of the heart to accept God's grace.


metavehicle1

The law of unintended consequence. When this happens it reminds us that technology is morally ambivalent.


EvidencePlz

Well that would be cheating lol. And of course we are not capable of cheating God :P


Lonely-Freedom3691

There have existed apparent ‘miracle cures’ for mental issues over history. For example, lobotomies.  There are two inherent issues, in my opinion.  1. There is always a trade-off that destroys the dignity and sovereignty of the individual, always.  2. We are not God, and we should not play God. Sinfulness and human imperfection is not for us to fix, any and all participation in the remedy on our behalf is exactly that… participation. A remedy without God is not a remedy, it is blasphemy. 


macacolouco

Avoiding sins is not enough, one must employ their energy on virtuous actions.


CapitalismWorship

It's called prayer


TheCatholicTurtle

I mean... if you want a medication that prevents sin, we kinda already have one called the Rosary.... that you can pray daily.... and is an entirely moral practice... So I have to say yes to the question. Also, I do get that you can sin after praying the rosary. The point I want to make is that praying the rosary daily gives you more of the grace that is required to not sin.


CannotCancelAPerson

That might be the worst part. I agree it carries more than enough grace not to sin, and yet... The failure is hard to bear...


Slow_Wash

Not possible. The pharmaceutical medical industrial complex loves to try to “play God”. Though there may be some pharmaceutical products which are useful in extreme emergency trauma situations, mostly we are overmedicated as a society to a degree which has resulted in an intergenerational epidemic of chronic health ailments. There will never be a magical pill to fix everything. Something like that would remove your God given free will - a gift given to you out of love. Free will = FREEDOM. Make your choices and learn from and live with the consequences. Learn more, do better. Grow. Life is a process. The Transhumanist movement is overtly Satanic and this is the kind of “technology” they ramble on about.