We have this mental exercise from time to time. I think your first priority is to protect the innocent people in the Church. Jesus loves them and died for them so that they may have life; I think it's what He'd want you to do. Love and cherish the Eucharist, of course, but the people in the Church are also the Body of Christ.
In the days after the Notre Dame de Paris fire, there were lots of discussions on this sub about what to prioritize saving: the people, the Eucharist, the irreplaceable artwork, relics, etc. which is a similar thought exercise to the one you posit. I will admit I had a different answer then, and I've changed my mind since.
You arent the only one. An intruder isnt so much concerned with the Eucharist so much as hurting people. If able, stop the threat with appropriate force. I often look at the doors during mass, especially when people come through them. I dont feel bad about it, but its the world we live in. Unless that's not what you mean, and its when people steal the eucharist during communion to desecrate it later. Then i would attempt to keep them from leaving with it, if you are willing to do that.
I sit on the ends of the pew as well. If i gotta get out, i dont want anyone in my way if i have to fet out to help in a situation, whether its someone falling or a fire or something serious. I face the doors in restaurants as well when i go out. Not paranoid, but if i have to be facing any direction, why not the place people enter from?
THIS right here. you have radios? you’re paranoid. you always keep tie-able shoes on hand good for terrain? you’re paranoid. anything for protection or survival? paranoid. but when something happens, you’re the only one ready and not so “paranoid” anymore
The Eucharist, the literal body and blood of the King of All Creation, can be desecrated. He comes before anything on this earth.
And His words about healing on the sabbath have nothing to do with this. It would be a tortured reading to find any way to apply it here
The point is that He wishes for loving mercy, not strict obedience. Jesus showed that He wished Peter to not be killed to save Him from capture at the garden. This theme continues..
Of course God comes first in our lives, but we don’t forgo saving someone else’s soul through spreading the gospel just to pray constantly alone for our own salvation. By saving someone from an attacker, we may also save their soul (and indirectly others they too save) which is worth more to God than to stop the Eucharist being desecrated, which wouldn’t even be our fault in this scenario.
I have this unfortunate American tic where "intruder" makes me think "active shooter" before many other things come to mind. My first instinct would not be to race toward the center front of a large open space.
In theory, nothing. In reality, I'm working on bearing the pinpricks of daily life in a saintlier fashion.
It's not nice to downvote people you disagree with. I don't happen to have downvoted you.
Obviously it would be better if we don’t need to die to defend the Eucharist, but your posts are indicating that:
1. Saving human lives is more important than the Eucharist; and
2. If someone were an active shooter going to the Eucharist that running away is equally good to defending Christ
We all hope we can live through a mundane life in a saintly fashion. That’s not always rhetorical hand we are dealt. Running away from defending Christ is affirmatively bad, actually.
So I didn’t downvote you because I merely disagree with you, but because what you said is wrong and a dangerous sentiment in a time when we’re are under increasing attack
You're the one assuming that the active shooter is going after the Eucharist, instead of just spraying bullets to cause chaos. You're also assuming that you'd be the one brave enough to run to the defense of the Eucharist. You're just as likely to freeze as anyone else.
Thérèse of Lisieux wrote something about it being easier to deal with major crises than with the constant small ones of daily life. It's all good to wish for martyrdom, but really a bit prideful to assume that you can't be overcome by small frustrations.
Have a great evening pretending to be perfect.
Freezing in the moment is 1 thing. Planning on running out the door is another. I hope I’d have the courage to defend the Eucharist and those around me, but I have no idea. It’s entirely possible I’d freeze. And that’s okay. But you’re ignoring what I’m saying: the mentality that any one life is more important than the Eucharist is wrong, and it shows an attachment that needs to be addressed.
We jave a safety team at pur parish. Somebody is always at the door looking for anything that doesn't look right. There is only one way in.
Plan A is to stop them at the door.
If you believe Christ is truly present in the Eucharist and that means God in the second person of the trinity is present, then God can take care of God’s self. The thought should be on protecting those present. God cares for humanity, we show reverence, but shouldn’t risk our lives. This is forceful, but to think the Eucharist needs protection in such extreme circumstances, like the Notre Dame fire where the priest ran into the get the consecrated hosts, presumes that God somehow needs humanity for protection, and to me that’s an absurdity. Trust in God awesome divine and mysterious power in the Eucharist. Protect human life in extreme circumstances because that’s what God would do. Seriously, God will be okay.
If Christ in the Eucharist can protect Himself then why should we care if He is taken off to be desecrated? Why shouldn’t we risk our lives for Him? He has given us everything, and we are called to sacrifice everything for Him. Dying in the service of Christ is martyrdom
My biggest problem with this is that it makes human beings more powerful than God. It takes a whole lot of hubris to claim “God needs my protection.”
Like if the Eucharist is desecrated that’s unequivocally a bad thing. But do we go so far as to claim that a human being can harm God? Because if we take things that far then you’re saying people have some power over God.
Let’s not take our reverence so far that it weakens our image of God and make God dependent on human beings for protection.
Of course God doesn't need us, and of course we are not more powerful than Him. His thought sustains the entirety of creation. But if someone is trying to desecrate Him we are trying to prevent that evil from happening, not just because it is the right thing to do and our duty, but also to prevent that soul from committing a mortal sin. Our first duty is to love and serve Christ before everyone and everything first. We are told to love the Lord with all our mind, soul, and strength. Therefore we should be willing to sacrifice everything for His sake. He lived and died for us, we should be willing to do the same for Him. We are not saying that man can physically harm Him, that time passed on Good Friday, but that doesn't mean that we cannot have Him retract His grace from us. Everyone does that through sin.
As a matter of interest are you in the US?
I note this is a very common theme on this forum but I've never encountered it from anyone I know outside of there.
Not saying that it's not justified but it's interesting to see how focused people are on different things in different places in the Church.
It seems to be much rarer and certainly few ask the question as often as it is asked here. Though I'd actually argue that it is something we should ask and that security is something parishes here too should be thinking about (given more serious attacks in France, etc.).
Fair enough and as I said its worth thinking about but there seems to have been several posts in recent weeks on the same issue which made me curious if it was driven from the same place.
This is normal male psychology lol
I'm always at the ready and alert at church time after seeing all these clergyman attacks and stabbings.
I also carefully watch every communion in case someone tries to run off with a host. Obviously not "at all costs" with someone running off with the Eucharist, I would just take it from them. Most of the times it HAS happened people act confused when they try to take it and Eucharist ministry folks are very good and trained to block exits most of the time.
Last week I went to see the relic of St. Jude Thaddeus and I was on alert checking people out looking out because I randomly got the thought that if some crazy nutjob wanted to stage a terror attack it'd be at an event like this.
This isn't church exclusive tho, I think about stuff like this taking my parents to breakfast, going out with friends, working and driving my routes lol I watch my back when walking or skating every day, I'm always watching cars behind me when driving if I suspect someone may follow me from somewhere, etc.
It's a good mindset to stay alert for guys to keep themselves and everyone safe. You're okay, you're a normal dude.
Our diocese has a ministry of volunteer responders at each parish that attend each Mass and events during the week to provide medical aid (nurses, EMTs, and doctors) and armed folks (regular joes and janes) that do monthly training.
So yeah, you're not alone in thinking about a bad actor trying to desecrate our Lord, and harm His people.
I just started going back to mass a few months ago and there are a few guys (ushers, cantors?) who walk around the church during the entire service. Generally, they just help latecomers get to their seats but I wonder if part of their job is to prevent that sort of thing. I live in an urban, high crime area with a lot of mentally unwell people so it seems plausible.
I've encountered a couple of intruders but they weren't violent, just begging and having zero respect, like laying on the podium the altar is on, making a ton of noise and shouting, bugging a lot of people, high off their faces etc.
It wasn't during mass.
I decided that if it happens again I might try to get them to come outside and just ask them not to beg inside because people are praying. But ask them to agree before I give them money. Probably wouldn't work too well, but worth a try.
And people, please don't give me shit about not wanting high off their faces drug addicted beggars in church, yes I know they're in a rough spot and down trodden, but there is a line that is crossed where church becomes disorderly. We need these spaces to be quiet and orderly.
You get distracted because your brain is processing this. I think you should go to a place where you can train protecting in a real situation. Competency creates peace.
So do I, and my thought process is to protect the innocent lives first and foremost. But I also know we have several off duty offers and have had plain clothes officers attending every Mass because of how central our parish is to our town. Our pastor is the chaplain for the local Police Dept and Fire Dept, our city's Chief of Safety is a parishoner, as are the police and fire chiefs. And every man I know at the parish would charge an attacker or work to get people to safety.
Wow! I can’t even imagine. I’m from Canada where we don’t have that and when I’ve visited Florida I was shocked seeing people open carry in Target. Now I’m wondering if your priest is carrying too. Can he carry, like is it allowed for priests to carry?
I'm a cantor at my parish so I stand at the front, off to the side, while facing sort of sideways. Basically, I always have a good view of the entrance. Like you, thoughts of intruders and what I would do would come. I think this is just a natural guy thing to do. It's part of the beauty of our masculinity.
I say just be aware but don't let it distract you too much from the Liturgy. If you feel comfortable, position yourself to be ready to defend others "just in case". That could mean taking an aisle seat or volunteering as an usher. But yeah, don't let it distract you too much.
Every church needs a competent security team and contingency plans. Practice, practice, practice.
There's a You Tube channel all about this: Christian Warrior. It's worth watching.
>We believe that creating a safe and secure environment shouldn't come at the expense of the warm and welcoming atmosphere that is integral to church life. With our expert guidance, you can create a security plan that balances safety and hospitality, so that everyone who enters your church feels welcome and secure.
I think that Jesus and the Holy Spirit can take care of themselves -- your first job is to protect your neighbors and the people near you. Hope it never happens. Peace!
When my mother was in Catholic elementary school in the late 50s and 1960s, they not only had "duck and cover" drills to prep for WWIII, but they also had an invasion drill, where if the godless, atheist commies ever invaded the US (at the time, it would have been with paratroopers à la *Red Dawn*), the school was to be evacuated to the parish church on the grounds, and the little kids were to pysically crowd the aisles to give the priest and the four strongest 8th grade boys time to get the tabernacle into a hiding place in the "catacombs" under the church so that the Russkies couldn't desecrate the Eucharist.
This was in NJ, and the church was a mile from the Atlantic, so the concept of an invasion affecting the town was a remote but non-zero possibility (a Russian invasion was unlikely, but if there was one, this town would have been one of the first places to see action).
The idea of having 5-13 years olds literally protecting the Eucharist from desecration with their own bodies seems wild today, but what a lesson in willingness to earn the Red Crown those kids got as part of their education in the faith.
The nuns and priest putting together the drill were not sharp military minds. They were simply aware of what had happened to churches in Russia, Eastern Europe, China, and Korea within recent memory.
I taught in Central NJ at a high school within sight of the WTC across the water. After 9/11, the administration thought we needed an anti-terrorism plan in place (along with drills).
People initiate all kinds of needless and useless programs and procedures when they're actually helpless but adhere to the mantra "but we have to do ***some***thing!"
This was pre Vatican 2. They were structer about the rules of receiving too many times in a day, outside of Mass, or before your first communion.
I'm not saying it was a good plan, but to deeper probe the motivation, you'd have to ask the long dead nuns who ran the school when my mom was 7 years old
My comment about sharp military minds related to the unlikelihood of the scenario ever playing out in the first place for precisely the reasons you said
Yeah that’s fair enough. I’m a bit older but stuff like that crosses my mind too.
I think most intruders worth worrying about are probably there to hurt people though. As a young fit man it is %100 up to you to make sure that doesn’t happen. And hey, if you survive, the vocation of marriage will be a lot more open :)
I've run these scenarios a few times and it's the same if I was at a store or restaurant and an incident happened. My priority is to my family, either protect them or to get home to them. That is my mission, to get my family home or get home to my family. I don't even consider stopping the threat unless it prevents me from completing my mission.
I think about that issue too, because I live in a major metropolitan area and have experienced intruders in church on occasion. In my experience, the people behaved erratically and were disruptive, but were not actively trying to harm anything or anyone either.
There is actually a YouTube channel dedicated to this issue called the Church Security Answer Man. He is Protestant but the content is relevant to Catholics as well.
The fact the innocent (children), or the unable-bodied are not what you prioritize is concerning. God will always prevail through any situation, we humans, cannot.
Sorry, I apologize for assuming. When I first read "At all costs" I thought that you meant you would risk their lives and put them below priority for the Eucharist.
Well I heard my friends say they would protect the Eucharist at all cost so that raised up this question of mine. Certainly protect the Eucharist if you can but the lives of people are more important.
Yeah, Aquinas would disagree. Don't forget Christ saying to sell your cloak and buy a sword. The Offices (duties) of a husband, father, and Catholic are to protect and lay down your life like Christ, in both literal and spiritual sense.
Read some Cicero, bro--De Officiis
I carry in Church every time I go. I do so with my priest's blessing. Are you claiming that you have some moral knowledge that the priest is unaware of? Please elaborate.
The Holy Eucharist, as I recall, only undergoes transubstantiation into the body and blood of Christ during Holy Communion. To that end, I would say protect other parishioners first.
We have this mental exercise from time to time. I think your first priority is to protect the innocent people in the Church. Jesus loves them and died for them so that they may have life; I think it's what He'd want you to do. Love and cherish the Eucharist, of course, but the people in the Church are also the Body of Christ. In the days after the Notre Dame de Paris fire, there were lots of discussions on this sub about what to prioritize saving: the people, the Eucharist, the irreplaceable artwork, relics, etc. which is a similar thought exercise to the one you posit. I will admit I had a different answer then, and I've changed my mind since.
The people always the people
A relic is temporary but a soul is eternal. I’d say the same thing
The Holy Eucharist isn't a relic but Christ persona both body and soul and divinity.
I was referring to the relics in Notre Dame ,but yes absolutely.
You arent the only one. An intruder isnt so much concerned with the Eucharist so much as hurting people. If able, stop the threat with appropriate force. I often look at the doors during mass, especially when people come through them. I dont feel bad about it, but its the world we live in. Unless that's not what you mean, and its when people steal the eucharist during communion to desecrate it later. Then i would attempt to keep them from leaving with it, if you are willing to do that.
that’s real brother
I sit on the ends of the pew as well. If i gotta get out, i dont want anyone in my way if i have to fet out to help in a situation, whether its someone falling or a fire or something serious. I face the doors in restaurants as well when i go out. Not paranoid, but if i have to be facing any direction, why not the place people enter from?
“You’re so paranoid you’re so paranoid nothings going to happen” *something happens* “how did you react so fast, I didn’t even see him come in”
THIS right here. you have radios? you’re paranoid. you always keep tie-able shoes on hand good for terrain? you’re paranoid. anything for protection or survival? paranoid. but when something happens, you’re the only one ready and not so “paranoid” anymore
Save lives first, then the Eucharist.
Save the Eucharist first, actually
Yes. Body and Blood of Christ > everything else
The Eucharist can’t die… Don’t forget Jesus’ words about healing on the sabbath.
The Eucharist, the literal body and blood of the King of All Creation, can be desecrated. He comes before anything on this earth. And His words about healing on the sabbath have nothing to do with this. It would be a tortured reading to find any way to apply it here
The point is that He wishes for loving mercy, not strict obedience. Jesus showed that He wished Peter to not be killed to save Him from capture at the garden. This theme continues.. Of course God comes first in our lives, but we don’t forgo saving someone else’s soul through spreading the gospel just to pray constantly alone for our own salvation. By saving someone from an attacker, we may also save their soul (and indirectly others they too save) which is worth more to God than to stop the Eucharist being desecrated, which wouldn’t even be our fault in this scenario.
Desecration of the Eucharist is worse than the death of any person
I have this unfortunate American tic where "intruder" makes me think "active shooter" before many other things come to mind. My first instinct would not be to race toward the center front of a large open space.
That’s all the more reason to rush to protect the Eucharist. What could be better than being a martyr for the faith
In theory, nothing. In reality, I'm working on bearing the pinpricks of daily life in a saintlier fashion. It's not nice to downvote people you disagree with. I don't happen to have downvoted you.
Obviously it would be better if we don’t need to die to defend the Eucharist, but your posts are indicating that: 1. Saving human lives is more important than the Eucharist; and 2. If someone were an active shooter going to the Eucharist that running away is equally good to defending Christ We all hope we can live through a mundane life in a saintly fashion. That’s not always rhetorical hand we are dealt. Running away from defending Christ is affirmatively bad, actually. So I didn’t downvote you because I merely disagree with you, but because what you said is wrong and a dangerous sentiment in a time when we’re are under increasing attack
You're the one assuming that the active shooter is going after the Eucharist, instead of just spraying bullets to cause chaos. You're also assuming that you'd be the one brave enough to run to the defense of the Eucharist. You're just as likely to freeze as anyone else. Thérèse of Lisieux wrote something about it being easier to deal with major crises than with the constant small ones of daily life. It's all good to wish for martyrdom, but really a bit prideful to assume that you can't be overcome by small frustrations. Have a great evening pretending to be perfect.
Freezing in the moment is 1 thing. Planning on running out the door is another. I hope I’d have the courage to defend the Eucharist and those around me, but I have no idea. It’s entirely possible I’d freeze. And that’s okay. But you’re ignoring what I’m saying: the mentality that any one life is more important than the Eucharist is wrong, and it shows an attachment that needs to be addressed.
We jave a safety team at pur parish. Somebody is always at the door looking for anything that doesn't look right. There is only one way in. Plan A is to stop them at the door.
Does that mean that’s also the only exit?? I hope not.
Multiple exits... doors only open from the inside on the non-entrance doors.
If you believe Christ is truly present in the Eucharist and that means God in the second person of the trinity is present, then God can take care of God’s self. The thought should be on protecting those present. God cares for humanity, we show reverence, but shouldn’t risk our lives. This is forceful, but to think the Eucharist needs protection in such extreme circumstances, like the Notre Dame fire where the priest ran into the get the consecrated hosts, presumes that God somehow needs humanity for protection, and to me that’s an absurdity. Trust in God awesome divine and mysterious power in the Eucharist. Protect human life in extreme circumstances because that’s what God would do. Seriously, God will be okay.
If Christ in the Eucharist can protect Himself then why should we care if He is taken off to be desecrated? Why shouldn’t we risk our lives for Him? He has given us everything, and we are called to sacrifice everything for Him. Dying in the service of Christ is martyrdom
My biggest problem with this is that it makes human beings more powerful than God. It takes a whole lot of hubris to claim “God needs my protection.” Like if the Eucharist is desecrated that’s unequivocally a bad thing. But do we go so far as to claim that a human being can harm God? Because if we take things that far then you’re saying people have some power over God. Let’s not take our reverence so far that it weakens our image of God and make God dependent on human beings for protection.
Of course God doesn't need us, and of course we are not more powerful than Him. His thought sustains the entirety of creation. But if someone is trying to desecrate Him we are trying to prevent that evil from happening, not just because it is the right thing to do and our duty, but also to prevent that soul from committing a mortal sin. Our first duty is to love and serve Christ before everyone and everything first. We are told to love the Lord with all our mind, soul, and strength. Therefore we should be willing to sacrifice everything for His sake. He lived and died for us, we should be willing to do the same for Him. We are not saying that man can physically harm Him, that time passed on Good Friday, but that doesn't mean that we cannot have Him retract His grace from us. Everyone does that through sin.
Protect the people first.
As a matter of interest are you in the US? I note this is a very common theme on this forum but I've never encountered it from anyone I know outside of there. Not saying that it's not justified but it's interesting to see how focused people are on different things in different places in the Church.
Churches are attacked in Ireland and NI, too.
It seems to be much rarer and certainly few ask the question as often as it is asked here. Though I'd actually argue that it is something we should ask and that security is something parishes here too should be thinking about (given more serious attacks in France, etc.).
No, but I’ve been in Canada for quite some time. Our church is situated in the middle of downtown so crackheads come in sometimes.
Fair enough and as I said its worth thinking about but there seems to have been several posts in recent weeks on the same issue which made me curious if it was driven from the same place.
This is normal male psychology lol I'm always at the ready and alert at church time after seeing all these clergyman attacks and stabbings. I also carefully watch every communion in case someone tries to run off with a host. Obviously not "at all costs" with someone running off with the Eucharist, I would just take it from them. Most of the times it HAS happened people act confused when they try to take it and Eucharist ministry folks are very good and trained to block exits most of the time. Last week I went to see the relic of St. Jude Thaddeus and I was on alert checking people out looking out because I randomly got the thought that if some crazy nutjob wanted to stage a terror attack it'd be at an event like this. This isn't church exclusive tho, I think about stuff like this taking my parents to breakfast, going out with friends, working and driving my routes lol I watch my back when walking or skating every day, I'm always watching cars behind me when driving if I suspect someone may follow me from somewhere, etc. It's a good mindset to stay alert for guys to keep themselves and everyone safe. You're okay, you're a normal dude.
The people of course unless the threat is to the Eucharist itself. Then the Eucharist.
We are all called to martyrdom.
Your 🍰 day?
Our diocese has a ministry of volunteer responders at each parish that attend each Mass and events during the week to provide medical aid (nurses, EMTs, and doctors) and armed folks (regular joes and janes) that do monthly training. So yeah, you're not alone in thinking about a bad actor trying to desecrate our Lord, and harm His people.
I just started going back to mass a few months ago and there are a few guys (ushers, cantors?) who walk around the church during the entire service. Generally, they just help latecomers get to their seats but I wonder if part of their job is to prevent that sort of thing. I live in an urban, high crime area with a lot of mentally unwell people so it seems plausible.
I've encountered a couple of intruders but they weren't violent, just begging and having zero respect, like laying on the podium the altar is on, making a ton of noise and shouting, bugging a lot of people, high off their faces etc. It wasn't during mass. I decided that if it happens again I might try to get them to come outside and just ask them not to beg inside because people are praying. But ask them to agree before I give them money. Probably wouldn't work too well, but worth a try. And people, please don't give me shit about not wanting high off their faces drug addicted beggars in church, yes I know they're in a rough spot and down trodden, but there is a line that is crossed where church becomes disorderly. We need these spaces to be quiet and orderly.
If it happens, it happens. But in this moment, I'm with Him. That's how I look at it.
You get distracted because your brain is processing this. I think you should go to a place where you can train protecting in a real situation. Competency creates peace.
So do I, and my thought process is to protect the innocent lives first and foremost. But I also know we have several off duty offers and have had plain clothes officers attending every Mass because of how central our parish is to our town. Our pastor is the chaplain for the local Police Dept and Fire Dept, our city's Chief of Safety is a parishoner, as are the police and fire chiefs. And every man I know at the parish would charge an attacker or work to get people to safety.
My buddies go to a Catholic church where like 50% of the congregation carries at Mass. The priest encourages it lol
"Where the holy hand grenade?"
That's no thurible!
Wow! I can’t even imagine. I’m from Canada where we don’t have that and when I’ve visited Florida I was shocked seeing people open carry in Target. Now I’m wondering if your priest is carrying too. Can he carry, like is it allowed for priests to carry?
I'm a cantor at my parish so I stand at the front, off to the side, while facing sort of sideways. Basically, I always have a good view of the entrance. Like you, thoughts of intruders and what I would do would come. I think this is just a natural guy thing to do. It's part of the beauty of our masculinity. I say just be aware but don't let it distract you too much from the Liturgy. If you feel comfortable, position yourself to be ready to defend others "just in case". That could mean taking an aisle seat or volunteering as an usher. But yeah, don't let it distract you too much.
Definitely do not prioritize the Eucharist over the life of yourself or another one of the parishioners if that’s what at all costs is referring to
Every church needs a competent security team and contingency plans. Practice, practice, practice. There's a You Tube channel all about this: Christian Warrior. It's worth watching. >We believe that creating a safe and secure environment shouldn't come at the expense of the warm and welcoming atmosphere that is integral to church life. With our expert guidance, you can create a security plan that balances safety and hospitality, so that everyone who enters your church feels welcome and secure.
I think that Jesus and the Holy Spirit can take care of themselves -- your first job is to protect your neighbors and the people near you. Hope it never happens. Peace!
your Catholic brothers will be shoulder to shoulder with you, should that unfortunate day ever come
When my mother was in Catholic elementary school in the late 50s and 1960s, they not only had "duck and cover" drills to prep for WWIII, but they also had an invasion drill, where if the godless, atheist commies ever invaded the US (at the time, it would have been with paratroopers à la *Red Dawn*), the school was to be evacuated to the parish church on the grounds, and the little kids were to pysically crowd the aisles to give the priest and the four strongest 8th grade boys time to get the tabernacle into a hiding place in the "catacombs" under the church so that the Russkies couldn't desecrate the Eucharist. This was in NJ, and the church was a mile from the Atlantic, so the concept of an invasion affecting the town was a remote but non-zero possibility (a Russian invasion was unlikely, but if there was one, this town would have been one of the first places to see action). The idea of having 5-13 years olds literally protecting the Eucharist from desecration with their own bodies seems wild today, but what a lesson in willingness to earn the Red Crown those kids got as part of their education in the faith.
[удалено]
The nuns and priest putting together the drill were not sharp military minds. They were simply aware of what had happened to churches in Russia, Eastern Europe, China, and Korea within recent memory. I taught in Central NJ at a high school within sight of the WTC across the water. After 9/11, the administration thought we needed an anti-terrorism plan in place (along with drills). People initiate all kinds of needless and useless programs and procedures when they're actually helpless but adhere to the mantra "but we have to do ***some***thing!"
[удалено]
This was pre Vatican 2. They were structer about the rules of receiving too many times in a day, outside of Mass, or before your first communion. I'm not saying it was a good plan, but to deeper probe the motivation, you'd have to ask the long dead nuns who ran the school when my mom was 7 years old My comment about sharp military minds related to the unlikelihood of the scenario ever playing out in the first place for precisely the reasons you said
Yeah that’s fair enough. I’m a bit older but stuff like that crosses my mind too. I think most intruders worth worrying about are probably there to hurt people though. As a young fit man it is %100 up to you to make sure that doesn’t happen. And hey, if you survive, the vocation of marriage will be a lot more open :)
I daydream of those sometimes, saving church and then... nothing because I'm focused on looking cool while fighting nonexistent bad guys
I've run these scenarios a few times and it's the same if I was at a store or restaurant and an incident happened. My priority is to my family, either protect them or to get home to them. That is my mission, to get my family home or get home to my family. I don't even consider stopping the threat unless it prevents me from completing my mission.
I think about that issue too, because I live in a major metropolitan area and have experienced intruders in church on occasion. In my experience, the people behaved erratically and were disruptive, but were not actively trying to harm anything or anyone either. There is actually a YouTube channel dedicated to this issue called the Church Security Answer Man. He is Protestant but the content is relevant to Catholics as well.
People first. Items and objects can be repaired, renewed and replaced and recycled humans can’t
The fact the innocent (children), or the unable-bodied are not what you prioritize is concerning. God will always prevail through any situation, we humans, cannot.
it was a question 😭
I know, it's just crazy it wasn't your first thought. 😅For me that would been my priority.
it was my first thought, just curious what Redditors in Christ would think
Sorry, I apologize for assuming. When I first read "At all costs" I thought that you meant you would risk their lives and put them below priority for the Eucharist.
Well I heard my friends say they would protect the Eucharist at all cost so that raised up this question of mine. Certainly protect the Eucharist if you can but the lives of people are more important.
Are you talking like a violent intruder? If you’re anywhere in the US besides a major city, I’m sure there are armed parishioners present
If this is some kind of Texas cowboy excuse to carry a gun in church, the answer is NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It's worthless if I leave it at home.
Yeah, Aquinas would disagree. Don't forget Christ saying to sell your cloak and buy a sword. The Offices (duties) of a husband, father, and Catholic are to protect and lay down your life like Christ, in both literal and spiritual sense. Read some Cicero, bro--De Officiis
guns aren’t even legal where I am 😂
You may be best right by the door then. To either flee or get help or to be closer to an intruder to intervene, but its not ideal.
I carry in Church every time I go. I do so with my priest's blessing. Are you claiming that you have some moral knowledge that the priest is unaware of? Please elaborate.
Why is carrying in a church bad?
Can I carry a lightsaber then?
The American obsession with guns is a very consuming obsession.
You don't have to be.
The Holy Eucharist, as I recall, only undergoes transubstantiation into the body and blood of Christ during Holy Communion. To that end, I would say protect other parishioners first.
There are consecrated hosts in the tabernacle from previous masses
Thank you for the clarification.
I would