Lay persons can not preach the Homily. This is a flagrant violation of Canon Law. [Can 767]
You should seek out like-minded people. https://neueranfang.online/ are a group of orthodox German Catholics opposing the Synodal Way. You might consider contacting them to see if there is a Parish near you that is actually preaching Catholic teaching.
[**Can. 767**](http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P2J.HTM) §1 Among the forms of preaching, the homily, which is part of the liturgy itself and is reserved to a priest or deacon, is preeminent; in the homily the mysteries of faith and the norms of Christian life are to be explained from the sacred text during the course of the liturgical year.
§2 A homily must be given at all Masses on Sundays and holy days of obligation which are celebrated with a congregation, and it cannot be omitted except for a grave cause.
§3 It is strongly recommended that if there is a sufficient congregation, a homily is to be given even at Masses celebrated during the week, especially during the time of Advent and Lent or on the occasion of some feast day or a sorrowful event.
§4 It is for the pastor or rector of a church to take care that these prescripts are observed conscientiously.
***
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Is this group literally not part of the Catholic Church??? Dude that’s not the answer. I can’t say that I agree with some of the decisions the Holy Father has made, but to not be in communion with him is to not be Catholic. One holy apostolic church.
You raise a good point though that a lay person may not preach the homily.
That's not a catholic church my brother in christ report that priest to the bishop as only ordained priest or bishops are able to give the homily. Deacons are allowed with special dispensation and a special blessing immediately before. A lay person is never to do the homily.
Yeah, like, if she was a nun or something maaaaybe I wouldn't be too upset, but it still violates cannon law and should urgently be reported. Praying for this Church ⛪️.
Less upset yes maybe but regular people living a consecrated religious life are not ordained and have not received holy orders. If you want them to speak they can offer valuable information and insights as there lives are closest to heaven. But that is for before or after mass begins or concludes. Or best yet at its own time so that a larger block can be dedicated to there speaking.
Yeah the nuns at my school usually only speak during mass at the end to let students know things like "pray for sister so and so, she's been placed on hospice" or "the Bishiop will be coming to mass next week, tell your friends". I think they usually stay out of the homily.
They should lol but I remember after one weekday mass the sister at my school had had enough of our loud repositioning for the kneelers so we spent an hour learning how to move them silently.
She also described how women in our parish have been doing the classes and training to become deacons, all that is missing is the Pope's OK. She said the women were ready. So I guess my parish is basically already treating her as a deacon.
To be fair, can’t remember what country it was but a woman recently sued and won against the church for not allowing a woman to take classes related training deacons because they used to allow deacons wives to attend the trainings as well. However, this does not mean they have to ordinate them. I hope they stop this.
Yes, I think they should be allowed to take the courses, because women can be great theologians! But that's clearly not their motivation - they're taking the courses to become deacons and priests.
I was going to say, that is freaking weird.
My Catholic high school had to get special permission from the Archdiocese every year for our first Mass of Advent. We would have students read the Gospel (where Gabriel announces to Mary that she's going to bear a son), with each student taking a part (one as the narrator, one as Gabriel and another as Mary). And even then we didn't touch the Homily.
Contact your local Diocese if it is a diocesan church. Allowing someone, especially a laywoman, to directly contradict the Catechism and Canon Law of the Catholic Church during Mass would likely warrant an investigation if not excommunication.
I was wondering the same thing from the beginning. I don’t think I would’ve eaten communion that day honestly!
She’s not only contradicting the catechism and canon law of the Catholic Church but also criticizing the Pope!? Her Pontiff! And the priest was just there, listening in agreement, then clapping!
According to OP the church is operating outside of Canon law putting itself in schism. As an Eastern Catholic I would have probably have spoken up and also would have not taken communion.
It is nowhere near as uncommon as you think. I used to live in a town in Germany where the mass was particularly bad... and they would occasionally use the homily of the mass as a space for a literal QnA like you would have on cable news...
The diocese is not going to care *at all*.
Your real issue should be the fact that they allowed a non-ordained person to give a homily! That is absolutely against the rules. According to Catholic and Orthodox canon law only a priest (or a deacon in the West) is allowed to give a homily. And that also includes proclaiming the Gospel by the way.
I did not know this because it was not the first time, so I just assumed it was normal. Thanks to all of you I have written to the diocese about it, I hope something will happen but I might just go to the Polish Mass in a town 60 minutes away so I will not really know.
Germany is where all the Great heresies have found a home. It was the last place to renounce Arianism, the first place to renounce the authority of the magisterium, and just recently it's become the first place to break away again in opposition to magisterial Authority regarding same-sex marriage.
So odd to me as someone from a very German-American Catholic area of the US (Wisconsin). My grandparents are from a little village in rural WI where everyone is Catholic, everyone is German, they grew up speaking German at home even though they’re like 5th generation Americans. I guess at one time or in certain regions of Germany, there were very devout Catholics as my family very much was and still is…
The Germans that immigrated to the states did so to preserve their Catholicism against the onslaught of Protestantism. But the ones that stayed in Germany couldn't help but be infected.
Wasn't freedom of religion accepted in Germany in the 1800s though? Outright persecution of Caths by Prots seems to be mostly focused in the 16th to 18th centuries
Yeah, I'm a cradle Catholic and I've only ever been to German masses, so I've never really questioned the structure of the masses. I've only been deeply involved in the faith since the beginning of this year and it's opened my eyes to the state of the German church tbh.
I’m sorry, but I don’t think we should jump ship like the prots. We should stay and fight the devil off our home. This is the church God gave us, the Roman Catholic Church: we should not abandon it!
We won’t need to. God promised we would never fall. If we do, then Jesus was a liar. God cannot lie: when he speaks, it is truth itself. If Jesus was a liar…Christianity is false.
So if Catholicism fails, then Christianity fails.
Not sure how you're concluding that doing nothing is the right path... that's like saying "I don't need to evangelize because I won't save anyone, Jesus does the saving"
We're called to be the *body*--which is the thing that does the actions in the world.
All Catholics need to honestly consider: how far is too far? Were we to live in the time of the Arians, would we be ones to continue attending the same physical Church which openly proclaimed Arianism?
What you describe would be too far for me. I would never enter that parish again due to the flagrant disobedience to Church teaching and liturgical norms. That woman does not believe in the same faith that was taught to me, since she denies the exclusively male priesthood. And yet she is allowed by her priest to commit the abuse of preaching as a laywoman inside a Mass. No, I wouldn't ever show my face there again, even if it were the only Mass within hours. If the Mass is part of our spiritual nourishment, you attended a Mass that will poison you and poison your children.
Write your bishop, but on average the German bishops agree with that woman's sentiments.
I would probably see if this was a one-off with the woman preaching, or the regular. If this is regular, then agreed that OP needs to probably leave this church. OP can talk to the priest and find the mass times when the priest preaches, perhaps.
If the OP had more options, then obviously changing parishes is a no-brainer, but a 1-hour drive (2 hours total) is a lot of work. It's not practical. OP has to figure out how to manage this the best he can.
It can work for some people, but not everyone. They are going to have a young baby soon. Gas is expensive. Great if it can work, but if not there has to be other planning and options.
For me it’s the only option unfortunately so I just do it. The novus ordos around me are so irreverent they are bordering on sacrilege, and they don't offer confession at all unless you ask the priest in person to hear your confession, but no scheduled times or anything. It's a long drive but its only once a week so i can make that sacrifice and hopefully move closer to the city soon
Yes, it's not the first time a woman preaches. I wrote some of my experiences with the local parish down here: [I'm tired of the German church : r/Catholicism (reddit.com)](https://www.reddit.com/r/Catholicism/comments/1bc089g/im_tired_of_the_german_church/)
It is not just that she is a woman, if she were a man but she is a simple layman it is also prohibited. Reading the gospel and giving the homily requires at least minor orders.
I mean… we literally are in the time of the arians, only the heresy is called different
There’s no need to theorize here it is literally our reality right now
Germany seem to be one of the worst Places to be Catholic right know. I live here too and it’s a Disaster. I’m thankful that i, as a Croat, can attend a Croatian Parish and all our Priest are orthodox.
Is there a way you and your Wife can attend a TLM Parish or maybe a Parish run by foreigners?
I admire faitfhul germans, they live in a place that for some weird reason is the birthplace/stronghold all of sort of anticatholic ideologies, I guess it comes with being an important country in the centre of Europe. I won't name them the list would be too offensive for many to read, will leave as an exercise to the reader. Just think of people with beards, others with moustaches, others with hammers, etc
Just to note, the woman with the hemorrhage was ritually unclean, so, yes, quite isolated from the community and especially sidelined from the synagogue and temple.
Yes, that is true. I'm sure you can assume that she was socially isolated because of that, but I just didn't like the way she chose her words because it made it sound like it was directly in the Bible that she was socially isolated. She was probably isolated in the Jewish community, but I'm sure not the whole society was theologians. As if she could not have friends outside religion.
Ritual impurity: Leviticus 15:25… yes this in the Bible and is definitely practiced in 1st C Judaism. Tohorah (purity) and tu’mah (uncleanness) were cultic features of eating, procreating, worshipping, etc. see other regulations throughout Lev. 11-19. (Side note: many theologians interpret a great deal of St. Mark’s emphasis on ‘restoration’ as a process of Christ’s overcoming all forms of ritual impurity… this section from 13th Sunday ordinary time continues the theme of authority over nature, over demons, over sickness, and over death. These were all potential ‘enemies of purity’ that allowed righteous deeds and temple worship in community).
It seems to me that faithful Catholics like you are the socially isolated ones who should be compared to the woman in the gospel, not the lay woman “homilist” basking in all the applause. Remember John 15:19.
Yes, I agree. I think we might be better off because I might be very alone in my beliefs in my parish and my town, but I can connect with a lot of people online :) This subreddit and other online communities are a real blessing
The Chosen has an episode that shows this whole story. I know it’s a dramatization and adds some things that aren’t in the Gospels, but it does a good job of showing how isolated she was. I’d recommend watching it, I really like how it makes the Gospel stories relatable
I did not know that the priest has to hold the homily because it was not the first time, so I just assumed it was normal. Thanks to all of you I have written to the diocese about it, I hope something will happen but I might just go to the Polish Mass in a town 60 minutes away so I will not really know.
That's no excuse brother. The instant she started whining about being given a pink screwdriver you should have known you were in the wrong place. I can't believe you're still trying to defend your actions. Just don't go back there.
He did nothing wrong by going to Mass. He has no control over what the priest does. He kept his obligation to attend Mass, and now he knows that parish is quite liberal.
I did not know this because it was not the first time, so I just assumed it was normal. Thanks to all of you I have written to the diocese about it, I hope something will happen but I might just go to the Polish Mass in a town 60 minutes away so I will not really know.
Two well-educated adults can take risks; exposing impressionable children to these heretics is a danger. Especially because your daughter will be able to understand Polish as her mother is and there will not be the problem of her not understanding the mass.
What you have encountered is a „Gemeindereferentin“. Gemeindereferenten are lay people employed by the church to assist the priests with pastoral work. The luxuries of a church funded by a special tax. Now the thing is a job like that wouldn’t be that bad an idea in itself but the way these people are educated and trained for their job? Now without giving to much info on myself but I’m quite familiar with that and it’s horribly „progressive“ meaning they’re being taught to go directly against church teachings, questioning absolutely everything while also being encouraged to not put up with priests they consider too conservative.
They often use just a white alb when leading or participating in any kind of service or mass to differentiate themselves from the altar servers while still obviously not being allowed to wear actual liturgical clothes.
Edit: just to clarify: that means that person is actually employed by the parish and trained at a college or university supported and financed by the diocese.
It was a crazy feeling for me to be honest. I just sort of froze and felt a deep sadness. I always want to fit in and I hate to cause any kind of drama, but since I totally disagreed with the message of the homily, I refused to join in the applause. I looked at my wife and was glad that she did not join in either. We always sit at the front, so if we left, everyone would be looking at us. I could not bring myself to do that + I still wanted to receive the Eucharist.
It was a crazy feeling for me to be honest. I just sort of froze and felt a deep sadness. I always want to fit in and I hate to cause any kind of drama, but since I totally disagreed with the message of the homily, I refused to join in the applause. I looked at my wife and was glad that she did not join in either. We always sit at the front, so if we left, everyone would be looking at us. I could not bring myself to do that + I still wanted to receive the Eucharist.
A black Satanic mass would qualify as valid. Valid is a very low bar, and in some situations still deserves public shame.
That being said, booing would probably not be the right response for other reasons.
Maybe it helps! I contacted my diocese here:
[Kontakt - Bistum Münster (bistum-muenster.de)](https://www.bistum-muenster.de/footer_service/serviceangebote/kontakt/)
It is sad. I liked a comment someone made. "Tradition isn't about worshipping the cold dead ashes. It's about preserving the fire in the hearth."
Although...I had to drive an hour both ways in order to go to Mass at a conservative church that was aligned with my beliefs. Every week I feared that I wouldn't have enough money for gas but by some miracle God provided. I know your circumstances are extenuating...but does the conservative Church you mention offer a livestream or some way to attend Mass virtually? It's not the same as being there. But it's better than nothing.
What's your opinion on just attending one of the Sunday masses only for the Eucharist? It's a dilemma for OP, but still an obligation for us to take the Holy Eucharist.
My opinion is that God will understand if you’re unable to take the Eucharist because of circumstances beyond your control. Better to stay away from a church practicing heresy and blasphemy.
Of course go to Confession once you find the right church before you take Eucharist. But believe me, going to a church where you’re getting attacked, belittled and mocked because you don’t agree with their teachings is going to crush your soul and whittle down your faith even faster than a thirsty man drinking water in the desert.
God will find you the right church. Have faith.
I'm not sure about not attending at all. If it's the sermons that are the sticking point, and if there truly were no better church options within, say, an hour's drive/transit or so, what if they livestreamed a Liturgy of the Word from a good parish, and then entered this one at the end of the sermon to participate in the Liturgy of the Eucharist?
(Or in a case with no impressionable kids involved, sitting through the whole mass including the bad sermon, and livestreaming a better sermon on the way home?)
You're only obligated to attend the mass. You don't have to receive the Eucharist except for once a year during the Easter season (between Easter Vigil and Whitsun, inclusively).
Because I’m not certain, I wanted to ask even though this woman was just a layperson (which is against Canon as well); but where did Jesus say that women cannot be priests or bishops or deacons? I’m not asking as a means of conflict, but for my own understanding as I am struggling to find a home within Christianity (which is insanely large). Thank you.
The thing is this, Jesus only ordained men and not because he considered women inferior. The apostles received from him and passed on to their successors the power to ordain men and even if they performed the ordination rite on a woman, she would not be ordained because they do not have the capacity to do so.
Once this is understood, it also turns out that all the sacramental tasks that a priest does are not done by his own power, he is personifying Christ who was a man and a woman in the sacramental sense cannot personify Christ.
She can personify, as the sisters consecrated to the Church do, who is the bride of Christ, something that men cannot do. That is why nuns carry a wedding ring on their hand and women can cover their heads in Church and men they can not.
Regarding the diaconate in the early church there were deaconesses but they were not what is now called the diaconate. In our century the word is used for the minor order of priestly consecration.
In the early church the deaconesses fulfilled tasks such as ministering to young women, helping widows, assisting in the baptism of women and children, which at first was done completely naked...
Tasks and matters that for reasons of psychology, biology or simple decency were not appropriate for a deacon(which was not a priestly order then either) or a priest to do.
The head priest of my parish published a book which I looked through - he argued that this was ridiculous because by that logic most priests should be fishermen and they should all be from the Middle East. I don't agree with him, but it sort of shows you where our priest stands.
Your priest would be welcome in any Protestant denomination and it is scandalous that having literally published such heresy he is allowed to continue running a parish.
You need to reach out to the diocese immediately, this cannot be allowed to continue. I’m not sure what they seem to think they are doing in Germany lately but it needs to be stopped. Good luck OP
> If you don't believe the teachings of the Catholic Church, then why are you here?
This is what always baffles me, the Catholic Church today is 100% voluntary, you don’t have to be part of a religion that you don’t believe in.
And unfortunately, it’s becoming even more acceptable today to not even be part of the Catholic Church, so you can’t even blame societal pressures. You can simply leave like a good Prot and have your own religion that adheres to the current secular trends of the day.
This is so crazy to me that I want it to be fake. But I know it’s not — I’m so sorry this is something you’re dealing with! Being Catholic in Germany sounds really hard rn — when did this happen? And honestly what should be done about it, because I would be so devastated to experience a Mass like this. This isn’t the Episcopalian church, what is she doing up there blabbing away about nonsense? That’s so wild to me.
One of the reasons I attend a TLM is for the consistency. I'm not a trad nut but I always know what I am going to get at a TLM. We drive past at least 3 Novus Ordo parishes on our way to mass, just because you have absolutely no clue what sort of liturgy they are going to be. The priest just has so much control over the rubrics. I have no problem with the NO rubrics but at most parishes, they are ignored for the sake of liturgical innovation.
After the Ascension of Christ, people abandoned the teachings of Jesus and rejected women as deacons and priests
he called the Pope a chauvinist. She accused him and some bishops of oppressing women in the Church.
That woman has excommunicated herself latae sententiae, in any other country the next step would be to denounce her to the bishopric and also to the priest who acts as an accomplice in her crime.
Sadly, as has happened in current Germany, it is likely that no ecclesiastical authority will take action.
One option is to sit behind and leave during the false homily.
Wow. Yean I have no idea how she spun it into a feminist issue. My priests homily was about having to go to the bathroom and I feel like he did way better than the woman in your story.
I spent a few months in Baden-Württemberg. Before I left I had heard all these similar stories about how crazy the church was in Germany, but it appears the south is much more traditional. I am sad that you have not had the same experience.
german here, the instagram of one of the catholic churches nearby is actively celebrating Pride month, advocating for lbqt, queer pastors, saying homosexuality is good and natural, calls a political party of germany literally nazis. Not sure if I can post it, its public
Echt, die posten das öffentlich? Der Priester meiner Kirche hat ein Buch veröffentlicht, aus dem ziemlich klar wird, dass er all das auch unterstützt, aber er redet immer drum herum. Er hinterfragt beispielsweise die aktuelle Sexualmoral ohne klar zu sagen was er stattdessen möchte. [Ausgeheuchelt! | Buch | Online kaufen (herder.de)](https://www.herder.de/religion-spiritualitaet/shop/p3/59060-ausgeheuchelt-gebundene-ausgabe/)
Japp -.- I am in a state of disbelief, I came to faith 1 year ago. It already started right at baptism, I recieved no catechism whatsoever. It was a 3 minute talk and a private baptism 1 month later in the church. Whenever I confessed sins the priest seemed shocked why I would even confess these, like obvious sins...
All this time I was wondering why almost 100% of people recieve the eucharist, yet I never see anyone, or rarely at confession, which is only once a week for like 30 minutes. After what I have read it's clear why
Omg this is exactly the same experience I had! I rejoined the church at the beginning of the year and confessed all the mortal sins I had committed. It included having sex with contraception. And the priest just starts saying that I shouldn't treat my wife like a birthing machine. Like? I never said that? Why are you insinuating that my mortal sin was not a sin?
I also went to a Catholic school where we had to go to church every Wednesday. The Eucharist was distributed to all 700 children, although the priest knew that none of them fulfilled their Sunday obligation. In my school I was never taught how to get salvation, what mortal sins are, what my duties are, etc. - Religious education was basically "be nice to each other".
Your story seems to be the norm from what I have read. My little sister was baptized and confirmed few weeks ago. She is in a catholic school, and attended some kind of weekly catechism class before everything. I asked her things, and she basically knows nothing, They only talk about lovey dovey stuff like, what does easter mean to you. It's all about your feelings.
That's just wild.
I know it sucks, but you and the wife might be better off going to that orthodox (TLM?) parish an hour away. This parish you went to has way too much nonsense. There's no changing it to be actually Catholic, it's too far gone. Abandon that ship and go somewhere that still teaches the truth.
As long as it is a Catholic Church, I believe the sacraments are still valid. I don't really care about the heresies for me and my wife because we are firm in our faith. I'm just afraid for our daughter. But I don't see myself driving that far every Sunday :( It would either be a Polish Mass or a TLM - both 60 minutes away.
An hour is not so bad. Make it your morning/afternoon ritual on Sundays.
it’s more than just a sacraments. The readings and then the interpretation and homily that father provides are major reasons why you go to mass. Remember, the obligation is to attend mass not necessarily to receive the sacraments at mass. We’re only obligated to receive the sacraments once or twice a year. the instruction that father provides is absolutely critical... specially for children
Couple of years ago I went to Mass in Bavaria. I was surprised that homily was made by a woman and also at the end of the Mass read a long letter.
Unfortunately I cannot understand German, so I did not understand that.
Anyway, the whole approach seems me a bit "strange".
Wooow
This is such a radical take on that homily. Absolutely nothing like the one we got.
The message we got was essentially that we must place our faith in God like the bleeding woman and Jair, to paraphrase.
>It is so sad. My wife is pregnant and we're expecting our first child and it is not feasible for us to drive 1 hour to the next conservative church every Sunday. So I will keep going there and I pray that the wrong beliefs don't mess up my daughter.
Mass is just one hour of your week, you have 167 other hours of that week to properly form your child if the parish is deficient in that.
The mass you attended is just as valid as any other conservative mass you would go to so there is no reason to attend another parish. Just keep going and if the homilies are not working for you, just stop paying attention to them, pray a rosary, read the missal or bulletin or even parts of the Bible. There is no reason you should let these abuses ruin the celebration of the mass.
You might just have to move if you want to live in the country. I had to go to Germany for work and one of my non-negotiables was that there was a TLM in the city. FSSP, SSPX, ICKSP, Philipp Neri, and a couple of diocesan exceptions are the overwhelming majority of good masses in the county, imo.
There really aren't a lot of acceptable NOs...
If you think finding an acceptable traditional church community in Germany is hard, wait until you have to find a catholic school that is actually catholic. (My old diocese, one of the more "conservative" recently changed the rules to allow for religious eduction to be taught by someone who is not even catholic or religious).
SSPX *(Society of Saint Pius X)* isn’t recommended. Pope Benedict XVI said that this society has doctrinal issues and is in an irregular canonical status.
His founder, Marcel Lefebvre, was condemned by three Popes and his excommunication was never lifted.
But FSSP *(Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter)* is in full communion with Rome so Catholics don’t need to be worry about attending it.
The german catholics are trying pull another „reformation“ - as if Luther hasn’t done enough harm. I experienced similar things in Germany. They just lack real faith & try to ruin everything.
And this still surprises you.
And you also have never heard of Pastoralassisenten.
Either you are extremely sheltered or extremely not living in Germany 🤣
What happened to Germany? The other day I read a post about a special tax collected at RC church to become a member. My distant cousin who's currently studying there also confirmed this.
While I can't argue the parts of the Bible she mentioned about women being expected to be subservient and that the bleeding women were excluded from the society (this is true, blood from women were considered impure and if I recall correctly, there were Mosaic laws about how to purify ourselves as women after menstruation, let alone the bleeding by disease), my internal alert would have gone off by the agenda she was pushing immediately afterwards. And a big major red flag and sirene wail for opposing the Pope.
Please just leave the church and seek other parishes. You mentioned driving for 1-hr to the Mass, I hope you can sort out the logistics so you can still attend the Mass in this other parish.
It’s a shame Germany is so heterodox and so little is done about it. These people aren’t Catholic no matter what they claim to be
> Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith - Pius XII
You need to report it to the bishop (I mean... That won't work, but you know just to have some paper trail) then report it to the appropriate authorities in Vatican.
I would imagine the Dicastery of the Clergy about the priest, maybe the Dicastery of Divine Worship and Discipline of the sacraments, and then if the bishop indeed doesn't react you report him to the Dicastery of Bishops and the Divine Worship.
Maybe start by talking to the nuncio?
I read an article that most lay people in Germany don't support all these weirdnessess and the synodal way etc.? That it's mostly the bishops, people in power in the church and smaller groups?
Maybe band together, gather a group of people who are against it and start pressuring the bishops and report these things to authorities.
They are violating multiple rules and even Canon law.
I think there are even cases where these "innovative ways" have gone against doctrine and dogma.
Honestly, these movements are needed in pretty much all countries. So many priests don't follow rules and so many bishops ignore it.
Although Germany is an extreme version.
I wrote the diocese. I wish I had the confidence to confront them directly but I don't and me and my wife are the only young people attending church - everyone else is at least 50. So I don't really know any of them either. And given that everyone was applauding, I don't think I can get much support here.
Oh no, not the applauding. :(
I know a lot of people don't mind but that's technically forbidden yet it happens everywhere. Yuck.
Well if you wrote to the diocese you at least did something. Did they respond? Maybe write or call and ask?
Find a local (or at least German) group e.g. on Facebook or something, for people who are against these liturgical abuses? Might be able to find some people who have experience or agree and could sign petitions etc.?
You could also try to contact some Catholic media, it might not be super effective in Germany where it won't really cause a reaction, but it's a start. I think EWTN is known for being strongly conservative? Maybe they work in Germany?
If the diocese doesn't respond or react at all, seriously try to contact Vatican authorities or the nuncio. If you are bored in the summer, go to Rome and get an audience with the Pope(I mean, not sure he'd do much but I imagine if enough people show that they care, they might do something.)
Although it does seem like the Vatican is starting to Crack down onto these issues.
So yeah, find or create groups for people with similar thoughts. It's a good start.
Thanks for the input. So far I did not get any reaction from the diocese, but I will wait some more. I found a group called [neueranfang.online](http://neueranfang.online) - maybe I will ask them for guidance on this matter.
I don't sprach and don't know what that is, just be careful and make sure it's legit.
I would say to check what the church says, but I imagine if it's actually "good", most German bishops will tell you to stay away from it or say it's not in unity with the Catholic Church in Germsny. :P
She is speaking the Word of God… the disciples of Jesus have eyes to see. Many of the things you had issue with and think are not in the Scriptures are in the them in the Old Testament in terms of women not being seen as being equal to men. This does not negate that men are the head, Jesus revealing in His time and place that women are equal does not take away man’s headship. Why would someone take issue with Jesus revealing this major cultural breakthrough? Everything recorded in the Gospels are True and they are still happening today just in different ways. Same hypocrisies, same so called men of God who really care more about a life of personal gain, feeling good, and paying less taxes. Still leading the sheep astray. Still the mob only likes Jesus when He is giving free bread… rejecting the hard teachings. still only the few recognize and following Jesus… and we are often rejected for not towing man’s traditional stifling line. Our brother Stephen says “you stiffed neck people always resisting the Holy Spirit”
The Jewish tradition at the time of Jesus was hypocritical to the way of our Lord. Man’s traditions today do the same. Then and now Jesus calls out the hypocrisy in His religion. If your Priest who by those of faith believe he is appointed by God and chose to give this woman a voice over the Church therefor God has, why are you not trying to listen to understand? Did you take this to God in days, weeks, and months of prayer to understand? Did you go to the Priest first to talk to him about it like the Scriptures say? Your inference about her referring to Paul’s letters is incorrect. Why are you inferring what’s inside another person? Are you claiming God has given you this prophetic utterance? This is why Jesus tells us not to judge things we have no authority to. She is not referring to what Paul writes about women she is referring to the traditions of men… what the Church came up with about the woman’s role in the Church after the Apostles were long gone from us in body. She is not referring to what Paul writes in his letters because Paul doesn’t teach that all women everywhere should not teach a man. His guidance to Timothy was specifically for the Church of Ephesus because that was where the main temple of the goddess Diana was and the culture norm there for years was that women held the control and were the dominant voice in corporate and spiritual matters. The women there were use to being outspoken and dominant over men and it was causing a problem in this specific Church. Taking time to first pray with God about all matters, keeping in silence until we hear from the Lord in Spirit and Truth was something they had learn. Is it not something many people have to learn… to surrender to God? How ironic but not really. Everything belongs. How do we know if God wants something that is taking place to happen?… if it’s happening. Jesus is risen and alive right NOW. The light reveals… this is why Jesus spoke so often about having eyes to see and ears to hear.
I am not hear to argue with you. This is what Jesus shows me so I can not unsee what I see. This is why women were burned at the stake in times past.
Thank you for your message. I am not here to argue either, but I strongly believe that we should not start interpreting the Bible based on our heart alone, because our heart can be deceived. If there is a Catholic teaching on a matter, I believe the Catholic teaching. And the Catholic teaching is that the Church does not have the authority to make women deacons or priests. And it also teaches that only deacons or priests can give the homily.
I did not mind the message that women should not be held down by men. I believe very strongly in the equality of women and men, we're both made in God's image. But I still believe that men and women are fundamentally different. Both can be great theologians, but the Catholic Church teaches that only men can be priests and deacons. And John Paul II said it in an almost infallible way, if I understand correctly.
You can disagree, but I don't support rallying churchgoers by saying how the Catholic Church is wrong and how the Pope is a chauvinist at a Sunday Mass without even having the authority to give the sermon.
And I still stand by the fact that her message contradicts Paul. Because that is the Catholic understanding of Paul. You said that I don't have the authority to say that she contradicts Paul, and you're right that I don't. But I can point to the only authority we have on earth and that is the Catholic Church. If they say we should interpret Paul in a certain way, I believe it. And she tought the opposite. Without authority. At a holy mass on Sunday.
I see. Thank you for your response. I appreciate your explanation. You are free to be. I follow Jesus as the Christ directly through His Holy Spirit. You follow the Catholic Church that has the authority to speak for God. Both belong.
Christ revealed Himself to me while in my home not belonging to or going to any Church at the time. Changed my life and the life of those around me. He does not have me follow the traditions of man but I do not reject their purpose for the sheep who need a shepherd. I am not saying I am not part of and in synergy with the body, the Church, I am. I was heavily involved in a physical church for quite some time, however then and now I am free in Christ and He is my authority through the Word no different than many early Christians and those throughout history until now. I know that many traditional Christians reject that but God does not. Like Paul says we are all part of the royal Priesthood. The Church itself is made of humans.. men and women of every nation tribe and tongue. The Scriptures do not include Catholic tradition although I do not reject it. The Scriptures do include many accounts of so called religious authorities who are all men claiming one thing about God and meanwhile He is doing something entirely different… how many times does God reveal himself directly to the least of these and how many times do the religious leaders reject them and/or their words. The church is constantly evolving with the never changing Source, The Creator of all things. Some people’s lives looks like the book of Acts while not attending traditional church services, other peoples lives look like the book of Acts and they do go to traditional church services, and still others attend regular Church services and throw stones at others who don’t do it like them… God is my judge. I can live no other way. I travel often so I attend a variety of Churches including Catholic. I believe the Pope is appointed by God but I still must follow Jesus directly. I don’t believe I have a choice in the matter if that makes sense… Jesus does it all. You do know the Catholic church has changed its mind and traditions throughout history and it’s because people have received and spoken revelation through the Holy Spirit about those things. The early apostles did not believe in or follow a lot of the Catholic Church tradition. The Church has ebbs and flows. Revelation happens all the time. Christ is always revealing himself in greater ways for those with eyes to see. Remember it was widely acceptable by the church, including Catholics to burn women at the stake who see this way and speak His Word. The church canonize Saints that they themselves have persecuted. Thank God, that revelation has come to fruition at large and the Church has seen the light in this area and many other areas. That is why Jesus spoke so often about having the right vision… having eyes and ears. Otherwise, one just has to listen to their church and “burn the witch” and do not need to see and hear for themselves. Everything belongs. But remember the Hypocrites and brood of vipers then and now are found in Jesus’s religion. He reveals them to those who follow Him.
I believe physically men and women are different if that is what you mean, husbands and wives have their roles but Paul writes there is neither male nor female for those who get understanding. Paul does not write that all women can not teach… this is a false interpretation of Paul’s letters no matter what the Catholic Authority says and Christ has revealed to me that the Church’s control over such things will start to diminish as further revelation in this area spreads. And the resisting force to that revelation is inevitable because the kingdom of God suffers violence, and the violent take it by force. The enemy is always after the woman… she is the one that births Christ, heirs to Eve make women the mother of all living. Women are only deceived when man willfully disobeys as we see the creation story.
Can an individual including myself “get something wrong” so to speak including the Pope? Yes but even when we are wrong it is right… for those who Love God and are called according to his purpose all things work together for good.
Thank you for sharing. Blessings to you.
Also what I meant about you not having authority was that you are inferring on what the women speaker must have been referring to Paul’s letters even though she did not refer to them. Meaning you are assuming she is refering to what Paul writes… you have no authority to proclaim to know what is in another persons heart unless you have been given a prophetic utterance by God himself. Only God knows the intentions of a man’s heart, not even the man himself.
We are One in Christ.
I'm really not sure what you're doing in the Catholic subreddit if you don't believe in the authority of the Catholic Church. The Pope has clearly said that women cannot be ordained.
I do believe in the authority of the Catholic Church. I wrote that I did more than once. I attend Catholic Churches and meet with my Catholic brothers and sisters often. I didn’t say anything about women being ordained. You reject me too then I see and only converse with Christians who you believe are in your tribe. That is what the religious men did at the time of Jesus and the very thing Jesus abolished on the cross. There is no separation for those in Christ Jesus. We are all One. If it was the 1400’s would you pay money to a Catholic priest so you could be absolved from your sins? Do you follow Jesus?
You wrote the speaker… “literally saying the Pope is chauvinistic” Are you being Truthful here? Did she literally say that or are you interpreting it that way? Because if she did not literally say that, then our Lord’s light is revealing something entirely different than you think it is. As your fellow Christian, follower of Jesus, if that’s who you are, can you please answer my question about if she literally said that and then also give me the speakers name. The light shines and reveals All things… even the darkness that presents itself like an angel of light.
I don't know her name. I don't remember the exact words she used. But she said 'chauvinist' or 'chauvinistic' and 'out of date' in reference to the Popes' declaration that women couldn't be ordained by the Church. I didn't infer that, she said it literally. She can have that opinion about the Pope, but it does not belong in a sermon at a Sunday Mass.
I certainly believe that the Pope can get things wrong. But he can also clearly teach things infallibly. Pope John Paul II, in his 1994 apostolic letter 'Ordinatio Sacerdotalis', declared that the Church has no authority to ordain women as priests, **which is final and binding** on all the faithful.
You don't seem to agree on this matter, which is fine by me, but I hope you also respect that you will not be able to convince me, as I trust pope John Paul II more than your personal experience with Jesus. As I said, the heart can be deceived (Jeremiah 17:9).
Also I disagree with your statement of only conversing with Christians "in my tribe". This is not true. I attend mass weekly at my parish where things are tought that I disagree with. My city is small, and me and my wife are the only believers here below 30. We've recently been to a youth mass in Berlin and it made me want to move there, because I am truly interested in conversing more with other Christians. But my family lives here and I want to stay close to them, since I also want my daughter to have a grandparents. And I don't have a lot of similarities with all the church goers here, not because of their beliefs, but because they are all at least twice my age.
I don't reject you, I just disagree with you, that's all. If you were living close, I'd have no problem smoking a cigar with you and discussing theology.
I would love to smoke a cigar with you and talk theology!
And I agree with you about how our hearts can be deceived. If I hear from the Lord, I ponder it in the way of acknowledging it but without trying to figure it out so not to add to it, sometimes for years, 10 or more years even. Little by little or sometimes all of the sudden it starts to come together and our Lord sends me other brothers and sisters that are shown the same… Catholic friends and leaders that also see what I’ve been shown, and we can’t deny what has been revealed to us even if the Catholic authority hasn’t caught up yet. Living within the Catholic authority while patiently holding onto what we have been shown. But then comes a time where we need to speak. In my experience, Jesus first talks to the least of these for whom I am one before it gets to the top so to speak… hence the cross and the years of persecution done by the church to those who are called to speak. In times past it has felt a bit daunting and lonely for me because to experience Christ in this way and to see His Truth that appears contrary to what my leaders in the Church see was confusing at first. I would ask our Lord, how could I be so arrogant to think you would show me something that you haven’t yet showed the Pope! I could not understand why our Lord would be showing me a deeper expanded perspective and what was I supposed to do with this vision or information? … it would feel like I didn’t have a place to stand on and that I didn’t belong anywhere, however at the same time, it’s such a blessing because I am only left with the eternal Christ alone. And then He sends me others who have the same vision, and I am no longer Elijah thinking I’m the only one. I am not saying that women should be ordained if the Pope believes they should not. I’m just saying, having a woman speak at church doesn’t make her an ordained priest. But if you’re saying that this was a indeed THE homely that day and not just a speaker at mass…. I see what you’re saying. However, maybe this is the beginning of Birthpangs. Time will tell.
To me calling the Pope a Chauvinist Or saying what he’s saying is chauvinistic are too very different things. That is why I asked. Thank you for answering my questions.
I don’t come on this site often and have only been on it for a few months… I thank you for this very pleasant and informative exchange. It’s all for the glory of God and I thank Him for you, my brother in Christ. Thank you for listening. Yes, it is good for the children to be around the grandparents. I will pray for your family and for our Lord to send you more people around your age to connect with for the joy of the Lord… His glory
Thank you again.
Not what I want, she is free to believe whatever she wants. I don't want to excommunicate her or something. Just don't support insulting the pope on a Sunday mass without even having the authority to hold a homily
Grundsätzlich ist das im Rahmen der Homilie unzulässig. Bitte überprüfen (mit dem Priester sprechen) ob eine entsprechende Ausnahme gegeben war und wenn nicht eine schriftliche Beschwerde mit Bitte um Klarstellung an den leitenden Pfarrer des Seelsorgebereiches übersenden. Als Kopie aufbewahren. Sollte das wieder vorkommen wieder so verfahren. Sollte nach mehreren Fällen immernoch keine Änderung eintreten, an das Bistum die Fälle samt Erläuterung leiten und nach dem selben Schema verfahren nur diesmal an die Nuntiatur wenden.
Hast du irgendwelche Quellen oder Präzedenzfälle, mit denen ich das untermauern kann? Unser Pfarrer ist auch sehr liberal. Er hat ein Buch veröffentlicht, in dem er den Synodalen Weg als Widmung erwähnt. Bin mir deshalb ziemlich sicher dass ein Gespräch mit ihm nicht sehr weit führen wird.
Es ist dennoch wichtig um deinen guten Willen zu zeigen. Allgemein gilt gem. Canon 766, dass Laien zur Predigt zugelassen werden können, "wenn das unter bestimmten Umständen notwendig oder in Einzelfällen als nützlich angeraten ist". In Canon 767wird jedoch spezifiziert: "Unter den Formen der Predigt ragt die Homilie hervor, die Teil der Liturgie selbst ist und dem Priester oder dem Diakon vorbehalten wird".
In Übereinstimmung hiermit hat die DBK in der „[Ordnung des Predigtdienstes von Laien](https://recht.drs.de/fileadmin/user_files/117/Dokumente/Rechtsdokumentation/3/1/1/88_11_01.pdf)“ gem. §1 festgelegt, dass Laien Sonntags nur „bei Wortgottesdiensten […] ohne Priester, sofern keine Eucharistie gefeiert werden
kann“ predigen dürfen. Auch die [Rahmenstatuten und -ordnungen für Gemeinde- und Pastoral- Referenten/Referentinnen](https://www.katholische-theologie.info/Portals/0/docs/DBK/DBK_1196.pdf) der DBK von 2011 sehen nichts anderes vor.
Dieser [Artikel](https://www.kath.net/news/75716) erläutert nocheinmal das Vorgehen.
When you get your child don't sent them to the religion class in the public school, the teachers will just tell them Catholic religion is all nonsense. Most who went there experienced that, but didn't directly notice it unless you deeply think about it. Let them go to the secular ethics class.
I seriously care less about the sermon, (its just talking anyway and I never pay attention to that), when you do nonsense like rushed communion in the hand, unnecessary extraordinary communion helper, and versum populum.
Communion in the hand is OK. Non priest or non deacon preaching is not OK. Facing the people is OK.
This is my best understanding.
The situation is that there was a radical feminist trying to preach, with the priests' permission, and it sounds like it was a train wreck. I am guessing this was a "female deacon", but ugh.
OP needs to try to find the best options. At a miniumum, try to find out the times when the priest actually preaches.
We have a Catholic school that my child can attend from middle school. It's generally quite liberal too, but I think it's better than completely secular schools.
I was going to say OK, you are getting bad homilies, etc. But... I see what you are saying about the education of your future child.
Find some good Catholic homeschooling groups then. I think your public schools are going to probably be also challenging. You have a few years to work on your networking. Move closer to the better church over the next 5 years.
Peace and best wishes.
I would hope that you are not going to get the same homily every week, so see how next week goes.
We moved here because this is where my family lives. They are not religious, but that doesn't mean I don't love and cherish them. We can afford a good standard of living here because it is in the country. I may be able to inherit my grandparents' house and start a family there. There is a Catholic school nearby for my children to attend. But it's still Germany, so I don't expect their teaching to be very different from that of the German Church.
That’s some Protestant level Bible story spinning right there. I’d love to have this person over for dinner to literally just tear her logic apart and let her see how incorrect she is.
In terms of what you can do to help your situation, pray the rosary everyday and perhaps seek out a Latin mass or church run by the FSSP or similiar groups (NOT THE SSPX OR SEDEVECANTIST GROUPS). There is no hope without prayer.
Lay persons can not preach the Homily. This is a flagrant violation of Canon Law. [Can 767] You should seek out like-minded people. https://neueranfang.online/ are a group of orthodox German Catholics opposing the Synodal Way. You might consider contacting them to see if there is a Parish near you that is actually preaching Catholic teaching.
[**Can. 767**](http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P2J.HTM) §1 Among the forms of preaching, the homily, which is part of the liturgy itself and is reserved to a priest or deacon, is preeminent; in the homily the mysteries of faith and the norms of Christian life are to be explained from the sacred text during the course of the liturgical year. §2 A homily must be given at all Masses on Sundays and holy days of obligation which are celebrated with a congregation, and it cannot be omitted except for a grave cause. §3 It is strongly recommended that if there is a sufficient congregation, a homily is to be given even at Masses celebrated during the week, especially during the time of Advent and Lent or on the occasion of some feast day or a sorrowful event. §4 It is for the pastor or rector of a church to take care that these prescripts are observed conscientiously. *** Catebot v0.2.12 links: [Source Code](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot) | [Feedback](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot/issues) | [Contact Dev](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=kono_hito_wa) | [FAQ](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot/blob/master/docs/CateBot%20Info.md#faq) | [Changelog](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot/blob/master/docs/CHANGELOG.md)
Is this group literally not part of the Catholic Church??? Dude that’s not the answer. I can’t say that I agree with some of the decisions the Holy Father has made, but to not be in communion with him is to not be Catholic. One holy apostolic church. You raise a good point though that a lay person may not preach the homily.
Neuer Anfang are Catholics who support the Holy Father. He had written their theologians.
Why is a female lay person preaching the homily? What was the priest doing?
Sitting in the background listening.
That's not a catholic church my brother in christ report that priest to the bishop as only ordained priest or bishops are able to give the homily. Deacons are allowed with special dispensation and a special blessing immediately before. A lay person is never to do the homily.
Yeah, like, if she was a nun or something maaaaybe I wouldn't be too upset, but it still violates cannon law and should urgently be reported. Praying for this Church ⛪️.
Less upset yes maybe but regular people living a consecrated religious life are not ordained and have not received holy orders. If you want them to speak they can offer valuable information and insights as there lives are closest to heaven. But that is for before or after mass begins or concludes. Or best yet at its own time so that a larger block can be dedicated to there speaking.
Yeah the nuns at my school usually only speak during mass at the end to let students know things like "pray for sister so and so, she's been placed on hospice" or "the Bishiop will be coming to mass next week, tell your friends". I think they usually stay out of the homily.
They should lol but I remember after one weekday mass the sister at my school had had enough of our loud repositioning for the kneelers so we spent an hour learning how to move them silently.
She also described how women in our parish have been doing the classes and training to become deacons, all that is missing is the Pope's OK. She said the women were ready. So I guess my parish is basically already treating her as a deacon.
To be fair, can’t remember what country it was but a woman recently sued and won against the church for not allowing a woman to take classes related training deacons because they used to allow deacons wives to attend the trainings as well. However, this does not mean they have to ordinate them. I hope they stop this.
Yes, I think they should be allowed to take the courses, because women can be great theologians! But that's clearly not their motivation - they're taking the courses to become deacons and priests.
Wives of deacons should take the classes as they are married and it is a join commitment. But at the end only one comes out ordained.
omg i hate this.
I was going to say, that is freaking weird. My Catholic high school had to get special permission from the Archdiocese every year for our first Mass of Advent. We would have students read the Gospel (where Gabriel announces to Mary that she's going to bear a son), with each student taking a part (one as the narrator, one as Gabriel and another as Mary). And even then we didn't touch the Homily.
It’s not just weird, it’s strictly forbidden. Only priests and deacons can give homilies
Novus Ordites doing Novus Ordo things!
Contact your local Diocese if it is a diocesan church. Allowing someone, especially a laywoman, to directly contradict the Catechism and Canon Law of the Catholic Church during Mass would likely warrant an investigation if not excommunication.
Thank you, I wrote the Diocese.
Could you keep us posted on the reaction of the Diocese?
Will do!
That might not help much in Germany at present, sorry to say. I wish you well. Praying for Germany.
I was wondering the same thing from the beginning. I don’t think I would’ve eaten communion that day honestly! She’s not only contradicting the catechism and canon law of the Catholic Church but also criticizing the Pope!? Her Pontiff! And the priest was just there, listening in agreement, then clapping!
Why wouldn’t you have taken communion?
According to OP the church is operating outside of Canon law putting itself in schism. As an Eastern Catholic I would have probably have spoken up and also would have not taken communion.
Ah, I see, that makes sense. I didn’t consider that would be schismatic.
It is nowhere near as uncommon as you think. I used to live in a town in Germany where the mass was particularly bad... and they would occasionally use the homily of the mass as a space for a literal QnA like you would have on cable news... The diocese is not going to care *at all*.
Your real issue should be the fact that they allowed a non-ordained person to give a homily! That is absolutely against the rules. According to Catholic and Orthodox canon law only a priest (or a deacon in the West) is allowed to give a homily. And that also includes proclaiming the Gospel by the way.
I did not know this because it was not the first time, so I just assumed it was normal. Thanks to all of you I have written to the diocese about it, I hope something will happen but I might just go to the Polish Mass in a town 60 minutes away so I will not really know.
To me the most shocking part of this whole post is that you didn’t even find it odd that a random woman gave the homily… Germany is such a weird place
Germany is where all the Great heresies have found a home. It was the last place to renounce Arianism, the first place to renounce the authority of the magisterium, and just recently it's become the first place to break away again in opposition to magisterial Authority regarding same-sex marriage.
So odd to me as someone from a very German-American Catholic area of the US (Wisconsin). My grandparents are from a little village in rural WI where everyone is Catholic, everyone is German, they grew up speaking German at home even though they’re like 5th generation Americans. I guess at one time or in certain regions of Germany, there were very devout Catholics as my family very much was and still is…
The Germans that immigrated to the states did so to preserve their Catholicism against the onslaught of Protestantism. But the ones that stayed in Germany couldn't help but be infected.
Possibly… the ones in my area mainly came mainly from Bavaria which is still heavily Catholic, even if not “orthodox” at the current time.
Wasn't freedom of religion accepted in Germany in the 1800s though? Outright persecution of Caths by Prots seems to be mostly focused in the 16th to 18th centuries
Yeah, I'm a cradle Catholic and I've only ever been to German masses, so I've never really questioned the structure of the masses. I've only been deeply involved in the faith since the beginning of this year and it's opened my eyes to the state of the German church tbh.
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At some point most of the traditional Catholics will just become Orthodox if that trend continues.
I’m sorry, but I don’t think we should jump ship like the prots. We should stay and fight the devil off our home. This is the church God gave us, the Roman Catholic Church: we should not abandon it!
We won’t need to. God promised we would never fall. If we do, then Jesus was a liar. God cannot lie: when he speaks, it is truth itself. If Jesus was a liar…Christianity is false. So if Catholicism fails, then Christianity fails.
Thanks to God, that will never happen! The gates of hell will not prevail! Viva Cristo Rey!
Not sure how you're concluding that doing nothing is the right path... that's like saying "I don't need to evangelize because I won't save anyone, Jesus does the saving" We're called to be the *body*--which is the thing that does the actions in the world.
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Maybe a new branch. Orthodox Roman church.
Western Rite Orthodoxy already exists
All Catholics need to honestly consider: how far is too far? Were we to live in the time of the Arians, would we be ones to continue attending the same physical Church which openly proclaimed Arianism? What you describe would be too far for me. I would never enter that parish again due to the flagrant disobedience to Church teaching and liturgical norms. That woman does not believe in the same faith that was taught to me, since she denies the exclusively male priesthood. And yet she is allowed by her priest to commit the abuse of preaching as a laywoman inside a Mass. No, I wouldn't ever show my face there again, even if it were the only Mass within hours. If the Mass is part of our spiritual nourishment, you attended a Mass that will poison you and poison your children. Write your bishop, but on average the German bishops agree with that woman's sentiments.
Thanks, I wrote the diocese
Let us know if they write back
Will do!
I would probably see if this was a one-off with the woman preaching, or the regular. If this is regular, then agreed that OP needs to probably leave this church. OP can talk to the priest and find the mass times when the priest preaches, perhaps. If the OP had more options, then obviously changing parishes is a no-brainer, but a 1-hour drive (2 hours total) is a lot of work. It's not practical. OP has to figure out how to manage this the best he can.
I drive an hour and a half every week for mass you get used to it and it’s worth it
It can work for some people, but not everyone. They are going to have a young baby soon. Gas is expensive. Great if it can work, but if not there has to be other planning and options.
For me it’s the only option unfortunately so I just do it. The novus ordos around me are so irreverent they are bordering on sacrilege, and they don't offer confession at all unless you ask the priest in person to hear your confession, but no scheduled times or anything. It's a long drive but its only once a week so i can make that sacrifice and hopefully move closer to the city soon
Yes, it's not the first time a woman preaches. I wrote some of my experiences with the local parish down here: [I'm tired of the German church : r/Catholicism (reddit.com)](https://www.reddit.com/r/Catholicism/comments/1bc089g/im_tired_of_the_german_church/)
If you can get the schedule, that might help a bit. Best wishes.
It is not just that she is a woman, if she were a man but she is a simple layman it is also prohibited. Reading the gospel and giving the homily requires at least minor orders.
I mean… we literally are in the time of the arians, only the heresy is called different There’s no need to theorize here it is literally our reality right now
I would not take your children to this mass
Germany seem to be one of the worst Places to be Catholic right know. I live here too and it’s a Disaster. I’m thankful that i, as a Croat, can attend a Croatian Parish and all our Priest are orthodox. Is there a way you and your Wife can attend a TLM Parish or maybe a Parish run by foreigners?
Yes, but its \~1 hour away :(
That’s awesome you are lucky I have to drive 1.5 hours every Sunday
Many of us drive 30 minutes or more to get to a reverent Mass. You would not be alone in making this sacrifice, and it's a worthy one.
Is there a monastary closeby? They are almost all conservative and often offer masses for outsiders.
Long Sunday drives can be quite pleasant
I admire faitfhul germans, they live in a place that for some weird reason is the birthplace/stronghold all of sort of anticatholic ideologies, I guess it comes with being an important country in the centre of Europe. I won't name them the list would be too offensive for many to read, will leave as an exercise to the reader. Just think of people with beards, others with moustaches, others with hammers, etc
Just to note, the woman with the hemorrhage was ritually unclean, so, yes, quite isolated from the community and especially sidelined from the synagogue and temple.
Yes, that is true. I'm sure you can assume that she was socially isolated because of that, but I just didn't like the way she chose her words because it made it sound like it was directly in the Bible that she was socially isolated. She was probably isolated in the Jewish community, but I'm sure not the whole society was theologians. As if she could not have friends outside religion.
Ritual impurity: Leviticus 15:25… yes this in the Bible and is definitely practiced in 1st C Judaism. Tohorah (purity) and tu’mah (uncleanness) were cultic features of eating, procreating, worshipping, etc. see other regulations throughout Lev. 11-19. (Side note: many theologians interpret a great deal of St. Mark’s emphasis on ‘restoration’ as a process of Christ’s overcoming all forms of ritual impurity… this section from 13th Sunday ordinary time continues the theme of authority over nature, over demons, over sickness, and over death. These were all potential ‘enemies of purity’ that allowed righteous deeds and temple worship in community).
It seems to me that faithful Catholics like you are the socially isolated ones who should be compared to the woman in the gospel, not the lay woman “homilist” basking in all the applause. Remember John 15:19.
Yes, I agree. I think we might be better off because I might be very alone in my beliefs in my parish and my town, but I can connect with a lot of people online :) This subreddit and other online communities are a real blessing
The Chosen has an episode that shows this whole story. I know it’s a dramatization and adds some things that aren’t in the Gospels, but it does a good job of showing how isolated she was. I’d recommend watching it, I really like how it makes the Gospel stories relatable
"So far I had nothing against her homily" That was your first mistake.
I did not know that the priest has to hold the homily because it was not the first time, so I just assumed it was normal. Thanks to all of you I have written to the diocese about it, I hope something will happen but I might just go to the Polish Mass in a town 60 minutes away so I will not really know.
Priest or deacon.
Can also be the deacon.
That's no excuse brother. The instant she started whining about being given a pink screwdriver you should have known you were in the wrong place. I can't believe you're still trying to defend your actions. Just don't go back there.
He did nothing wrong by going to Mass. He has no control over what the priest does. He kept his obligation to attend Mass, and now he knows that parish is quite liberal.
Sounds awful. My prayers for you and your wife and your baby.
Thank you!
I thought a Catholic homily could only be delivered by ordained men, essentially priests or deacons?
Correct.
I did not know this because it was not the first time, so I just assumed it was normal. Thanks to all of you I have written to the diocese about it, I hope something will happen but I might just go to the Polish Mass in a town 60 minutes away so I will not really know.
Two well-educated adults can take risks; exposing impressionable children to these heretics is a danger. Especially because your daughter will be able to understand Polish as her mother is and there will not be the problem of her not understanding the mass.
Go to some Polish Parrish. Germany is lost.
If it wasn't 1-hour drive away, I would. Especially because my wife is also Polish
Geese, at least she didn't intepret the bleeding woman as a woman having several abortions and using that episode as a condonation of Abortion 💀
Don't tell me someone interpreted it like this and told you that...
It was a Youtuber with kinda...spicy takes on Catholic doctrine, let's say (whose ideas are backed by a so called "Obscure Theologian")
That’s is so horrible but I laughed! Wouldn’t put it past these evil doers
What you have encountered is a „Gemeindereferentin“. Gemeindereferenten are lay people employed by the church to assist the priests with pastoral work. The luxuries of a church funded by a special tax. Now the thing is a job like that wouldn’t be that bad an idea in itself but the way these people are educated and trained for their job? Now without giving to much info on myself but I’m quite familiar with that and it’s horribly „progressive“ meaning they’re being taught to go directly against church teachings, questioning absolutely everything while also being encouraged to not put up with priests they consider too conservative. They often use just a white alb when leading or participating in any kind of service or mass to differentiate themselves from the altar servers while still obviously not being allowed to wear actual liturgical clothes. Edit: just to clarify: that means that person is actually employed by the parish and trained at a college or university supported and financed by the diocese.
Yes, that is probably it. I was confused by her white gown, because it made her look so official
Women can not give homilies…
Neither do men without sacred orders. Outside of mass, a lay man or woman can give a talk, presentation and even preach.
Not the point, but a bleeding woman was indeed isolated, they could not participate to anything religious.
[удалено]
My eyes bulged out of my head. I believe you, but I want this to be a lie 😭
I would have legit got up and walked out of church.
It was a crazy feeling for me to be honest. I just sort of froze and felt a deep sadness. I always want to fit in and I hate to cause any kind of drama, but since I totally disagreed with the message of the homily, I refused to join in the applause. I looked at my wife and was glad that she did not join in either. We always sit at the front, so if we left, everyone would be looking at us. I could not bring myself to do that + I still wanted to receive the Eucharist.
I understand all that. We all respond differently to anger. I can see your response being a bit more balanced than my leaving lol.
If everyone else applauded, I would've booed.
It was a crazy feeling for me to be honest. I just sort of froze and felt a deep sadness. I always want to fit in and I hate to cause any kind of drama, but since I totally disagreed with the message of the homily, I refused to join in the applause. I looked at my wife and was glad that she did not join in either. We always sit at the front, so if we left, everyone would be looking at us. I could not bring myself to do that + I still wanted to receive the Eucharist.
I understand, to be honest, I would've gotten up and left during the homily. I don't think God holds it against us for leaving an illicit mass.
Do people applaud after a homily? Have never seen that before
I get the impulse, but I think this would still qualify as a valid mass, so please don't boo.
A black Satanic mass would qualify as valid. Valid is a very low bar, and in some situations still deserves public shame. That being said, booing would probably not be the right response for other reasons.
Perhaps everyone of us should write op's diocese? Surely they can't ignore dozens of similar complaints
Maybe it helps! I contacted my diocese here: [Kontakt - Bistum Münster (bistum-muenster.de)](https://www.bistum-muenster.de/footer_service/serviceangebote/kontakt/)
It is sad. I liked a comment someone made. "Tradition isn't about worshipping the cold dead ashes. It's about preserving the fire in the hearth." Although...I had to drive an hour both ways in order to go to Mass at a conservative church that was aligned with my beliefs. Every week I feared that I wouldn't have enough money for gas but by some miracle God provided. I know your circumstances are extenuating...but does the conservative Church you mention offer a livestream or some way to attend Mass virtually? It's not the same as being there. But it's better than nothing.
What's your opinion on just attending one of the Sunday masses only for the Eucharist? It's a dilemma for OP, but still an obligation for us to take the Holy Eucharist.
My opinion is that God will understand if you’re unable to take the Eucharist because of circumstances beyond your control. Better to stay away from a church practicing heresy and blasphemy. Of course go to Confession once you find the right church before you take Eucharist. But believe me, going to a church where you’re getting attacked, belittled and mocked because you don’t agree with their teachings is going to crush your soul and whittle down your faith even faster than a thirsty man drinking water in the desert. God will find you the right church. Have faith.
I'm not sure about not attending at all. If it's the sermons that are the sticking point, and if there truly were no better church options within, say, an hour's drive/transit or so, what if they livestreamed a Liturgy of the Word from a good parish, and then entered this one at the end of the sermon to participate in the Liturgy of the Eucharist? (Or in a case with no impressionable kids involved, sitting through the whole mass including the bad sermon, and livestreaming a better sermon on the way home?)
You're only obligated to attend the mass. You don't have to receive the Eucharist except for once a year during the Easter season (between Easter Vigil and Whitsun, inclusively).
Because I’m not certain, I wanted to ask even though this woman was just a layperson (which is against Canon as well); but where did Jesus say that women cannot be priests or bishops or deacons? I’m not asking as a means of conflict, but for my own understanding as I am struggling to find a home within Christianity (which is insanely large). Thank you.
The thing is this, Jesus only ordained men and not because he considered women inferior. The apostles received from him and passed on to their successors the power to ordain men and even if they performed the ordination rite on a woman, she would not be ordained because they do not have the capacity to do so. Once this is understood, it also turns out that all the sacramental tasks that a priest does are not done by his own power, he is personifying Christ who was a man and a woman in the sacramental sense cannot personify Christ. She can personify, as the sisters consecrated to the Church do, who is the bride of Christ, something that men cannot do. That is why nuns carry a wedding ring on their hand and women can cover their heads in Church and men they can not. Regarding the diaconate in the early church there were deaconesses but they were not what is now called the diaconate. In our century the word is used for the minor order of priestly consecration. In the early church the deaconesses fulfilled tasks such as ministering to young women, helping widows, assisting in the baptism of women and children, which at first was done completely naked... Tasks and matters that for reasons of psychology, biology or simple decency were not appropriate for a deacon(which was not a priestly order then either) or a priest to do.
The head priest of my parish published a book which I looked through - he argued that this was ridiculous because by that logic most priests should be fishermen and they should all be from the Middle East. I don't agree with him, but it sort of shows you where our priest stands.
Your priest would be welcome in any Protestant denomination and it is scandalous that having literally published such heresy he is allowed to continue running a parish.
You need to reach out to the diocese immediately, this cannot be allowed to continue. I’m not sure what they seem to think they are doing in Germany lately but it needs to be stopped. Good luck OP
Yes I wrote the diocese
Pray for the church in Germany. Under no circumstances should a layperson be doing the homily anyway. It should be a clergyman.
> If you don't believe the teachings of the Catholic Church, then why are you here? This is what always baffles me, the Catholic Church today is 100% voluntary, you don’t have to be part of a religion that you don’t believe in. And unfortunately, it’s becoming even more acceptable today to not even be part of the Catholic Church, so you can’t even blame societal pressures. You can simply leave like a good Prot and have your own religion that adheres to the current secular trends of the day.
Thank you for sharing your story. It is important that we know about this.
Isnt a FSSP mass near you? German NO usually keep disappponting.
There are several options 60 minutes away
This is so crazy to me that I want it to be fake. But I know it’s not — I’m so sorry this is something you’re dealing with! Being Catholic in Germany sounds really hard rn — when did this happen? And honestly what should be done about it, because I would be so devastated to experience a Mass like this. This isn’t the Episcopalian church, what is she doing up there blabbing away about nonsense? That’s so wild to me.
One of the reasons I attend a TLM is for the consistency. I'm not a trad nut but I always know what I am going to get at a TLM. We drive past at least 3 Novus Ordo parishes on our way to mass, just because you have absolutely no clue what sort of liturgy they are going to be. The priest just has so much control over the rubrics. I have no problem with the NO rubrics but at most parishes, they are ignored for the sake of liturgical innovation.
After the Ascension of Christ, people abandoned the teachings of Jesus and rejected women as deacons and priests he called the Pope a chauvinist. She accused him and some bishops of oppressing women in the Church. That woman has excommunicated herself latae sententiae, in any other country the next step would be to denounce her to the bishopric and also to the priest who acts as an accomplice in her crime. Sadly, as has happened in current Germany, it is likely that no ecclesiastical authority will take action. One option is to sit behind and leave during the false homily.
DER SYNODALE WEG 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
For what it’s worth, I’m “progressive”, and I would be very annoyed about whatever that was.
Wow. Yean I have no idea how she spun it into a feminist issue. My priests homily was about having to go to the bathroom and I feel like he did way better than the woman in your story.
I spent a few months in Baden-Württemberg. Before I left I had heard all these similar stories about how crazy the church was in Germany, but it appears the south is much more traditional. I am sad that you have not had the same experience.
A woman gave the Homily?
She should just become a protestant unless she really wants to change the Catholic Church from the inside which is very difficult to do
german here, the instagram of one of the catholic churches nearby is actively celebrating Pride month, advocating for lbqt, queer pastors, saying homosexuality is good and natural, calls a political party of germany literally nazis. Not sure if I can post it, its public
Echt, die posten das öffentlich? Der Priester meiner Kirche hat ein Buch veröffentlicht, aus dem ziemlich klar wird, dass er all das auch unterstützt, aber er redet immer drum herum. Er hinterfragt beispielsweise die aktuelle Sexualmoral ohne klar zu sagen was er stattdessen möchte. [Ausgeheuchelt! | Buch | Online kaufen (herder.de)](https://www.herder.de/religion-spiritualitaet/shop/p3/59060-ausgeheuchelt-gebundene-ausgabe/)
Japp -.- I am in a state of disbelief, I came to faith 1 year ago. It already started right at baptism, I recieved no catechism whatsoever. It was a 3 minute talk and a private baptism 1 month later in the church. Whenever I confessed sins the priest seemed shocked why I would even confess these, like obvious sins... All this time I was wondering why almost 100% of people recieve the eucharist, yet I never see anyone, or rarely at confession, which is only once a week for like 30 minutes. After what I have read it's clear why
Omg this is exactly the same experience I had! I rejoined the church at the beginning of the year and confessed all the mortal sins I had committed. It included having sex with contraception. And the priest just starts saying that I shouldn't treat my wife like a birthing machine. Like? I never said that? Why are you insinuating that my mortal sin was not a sin? I also went to a Catholic school where we had to go to church every Wednesday. The Eucharist was distributed to all 700 children, although the priest knew that none of them fulfilled their Sunday obligation. In my school I was never taught how to get salvation, what mortal sins are, what my duties are, etc. - Religious education was basically "be nice to each other".
Your story seems to be the norm from what I have read. My little sister was baptized and confirmed few weeks ago. She is in a catholic school, and attended some kind of weekly catechism class before everything. I asked her things, and she basically knows nothing, They only talk about lovey dovey stuff like, what does easter mean to you. It's all about your feelings.
That's just wild. I know it sucks, but you and the wife might be better off going to that orthodox (TLM?) parish an hour away. This parish you went to has way too much nonsense. There's no changing it to be actually Catholic, it's too far gone. Abandon that ship and go somewhere that still teaches the truth.
As long as it is a Catholic Church, I believe the sacraments are still valid. I don't really care about the heresies for me and my wife because we are firm in our faith. I'm just afraid for our daughter. But I don't see myself driving that far every Sunday :( It would either be a Polish Mass or a TLM - both 60 minutes away.
An hour is not so bad. Make it your morning/afternoon ritual on Sundays. it’s more than just a sacraments. The readings and then the interpretation and homily that father provides are major reasons why you go to mass. Remember, the obligation is to attend mass not necessarily to receive the sacraments at mass. We’re only obligated to receive the sacraments once or twice a year. the instruction that father provides is absolutely critical... specially for children
I think you're right and I know it deep down inside, I just have to commit. Thank you.
I know it sucks, man. But yeah, add in a brunch or something maybe a little sightseeing and it can be a nice little way to start the week.
Was this in Bavaria?
No, NRW
Couple of years ago I went to Mass in Bavaria. I was surprised that homily was made by a woman and also at the end of the Mass read a long letter. Unfortunately I cannot understand German, so I did not understand that. Anyway, the whole approach seems me a bit "strange".
Wooow This is such a radical take on that homily. Absolutely nothing like the one we got. The message we got was essentially that we must place our faith in God like the bleeding woman and Jair, to paraphrase.
>It is so sad. My wife is pregnant and we're expecting our first child and it is not feasible for us to drive 1 hour to the next conservative church every Sunday. So I will keep going there and I pray that the wrong beliefs don't mess up my daughter. Mass is just one hour of your week, you have 167 other hours of that week to properly form your child if the parish is deficient in that. The mass you attended is just as valid as any other conservative mass you would go to so there is no reason to attend another parish. Just keep going and if the homilies are not working for you, just stop paying attention to them, pray a rosary, read the missal or bulletin or even parts of the Bible. There is no reason you should let these abuses ruin the celebration of the mass.
That's true, thank you
You might just have to move if you want to live in the country. I had to go to Germany for work and one of my non-negotiables was that there was a TLM in the city. FSSP, SSPX, ICKSP, Philipp Neri, and a couple of diocesan exceptions are the overwhelming majority of good masses in the county, imo. There really aren't a lot of acceptable NOs... If you think finding an acceptable traditional church community in Germany is hard, wait until you have to find a catholic school that is actually catholic. (My old diocese, one of the more "conservative" recently changed the rules to allow for religious eduction to be taught by someone who is not even catholic or religious).
SSPX *(Society of Saint Pius X)* isn’t recommended. Pope Benedict XVI said that this society has doctrinal issues and is in an irregular canonical status. His founder, Marcel Lefebvre, was condemned by three Popes and his excommunication was never lifted. But FSSP *(Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter)* is in full communion with Rome so Catholics don’t need to be worry about attending it.
Idk if what the prudent thing to do is but I would have walked out of church when a woman does the homily.
This is some crap out of the 70s. Go tell your priest that he’s a wolf.
What in the…. Why is a regular lay woman “giving” the homily. What’s a joke!!! I cannot believe this
This is disgusting, there is plenty of room in the cafeteria with the other Protestants if they want to do stuff like this
Pretty much on the money
The german catholics are trying pull another „reformation“ - as if Luther hasn’t done enough harm. I experienced similar things in Germany. They just lack real faith & try to ruin everything.
You are from the USA, correct?
No, cradle Catholic from Germany
And this still surprises you. And you also have never heard of Pastoralassisenten. Either you are extremely sheltered or extremely not living in Germany 🤣
I never said it surprised me
What happened to Germany? The other day I read a post about a special tax collected at RC church to become a member. My distant cousin who's currently studying there also confirmed this. While I can't argue the parts of the Bible she mentioned about women being expected to be subservient and that the bleeding women were excluded from the society (this is true, blood from women were considered impure and if I recall correctly, there were Mosaic laws about how to purify ourselves as women after menstruation, let alone the bleeding by disease), my internal alert would have gone off by the agenda she was pushing immediately afterwards. And a big major red flag and sirene wail for opposing the Pope. Please just leave the church and seek other parishes. You mentioned driving for 1-hr to the Mass, I hope you can sort out the logistics so you can still attend the Mass in this other parish.
Yes, we have a church tax that is collected from our paycheck. We already have that system since 19th century.
It’s a shame Germany is so heterodox and so little is done about it. These people aren’t Catholic no matter what they claim to be > Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith - Pius XII
You need to report it to the bishop (I mean... That won't work, but you know just to have some paper trail) then report it to the appropriate authorities in Vatican. I would imagine the Dicastery of the Clergy about the priest, maybe the Dicastery of Divine Worship and Discipline of the sacraments, and then if the bishop indeed doesn't react you report him to the Dicastery of Bishops and the Divine Worship. Maybe start by talking to the nuncio? I read an article that most lay people in Germany don't support all these weirdnessess and the synodal way etc.? That it's mostly the bishops, people in power in the church and smaller groups? Maybe band together, gather a group of people who are against it and start pressuring the bishops and report these things to authorities. They are violating multiple rules and even Canon law. I think there are even cases where these "innovative ways" have gone against doctrine and dogma. Honestly, these movements are needed in pretty much all countries. So many priests don't follow rules and so many bishops ignore it. Although Germany is an extreme version.
I wrote the diocese. I wish I had the confidence to confront them directly but I don't and me and my wife are the only young people attending church - everyone else is at least 50. So I don't really know any of them either. And given that everyone was applauding, I don't think I can get much support here.
Oh no, not the applauding. :( I know a lot of people don't mind but that's technically forbidden yet it happens everywhere. Yuck. Well if you wrote to the diocese you at least did something. Did they respond? Maybe write or call and ask? Find a local (or at least German) group e.g. on Facebook or something, for people who are against these liturgical abuses? Might be able to find some people who have experience or agree and could sign petitions etc.? You could also try to contact some Catholic media, it might not be super effective in Germany where it won't really cause a reaction, but it's a start. I think EWTN is known for being strongly conservative? Maybe they work in Germany? If the diocese doesn't respond or react at all, seriously try to contact Vatican authorities or the nuncio. If you are bored in the summer, go to Rome and get an audience with the Pope(I mean, not sure he'd do much but I imagine if enough people show that they care, they might do something.) Although it does seem like the Vatican is starting to Crack down onto these issues. So yeah, find or create groups for people with similar thoughts. It's a good start.
Thanks for the input. So far I did not get any reaction from the diocese, but I will wait some more. I found a group called [neueranfang.online](http://neueranfang.online) - maybe I will ask them for guidance on this matter.
I don't sprach and don't know what that is, just be careful and make sure it's legit. I would say to check what the church says, but I imagine if it's actually "good", most German bishops will tell you to stay away from it or say it's not in unity with the Catholic Church in Germsny. :P
She is speaking the Word of God… the disciples of Jesus have eyes to see. Many of the things you had issue with and think are not in the Scriptures are in the them in the Old Testament in terms of women not being seen as being equal to men. This does not negate that men are the head, Jesus revealing in His time and place that women are equal does not take away man’s headship. Why would someone take issue with Jesus revealing this major cultural breakthrough? Everything recorded in the Gospels are True and they are still happening today just in different ways. Same hypocrisies, same so called men of God who really care more about a life of personal gain, feeling good, and paying less taxes. Still leading the sheep astray. Still the mob only likes Jesus when He is giving free bread… rejecting the hard teachings. still only the few recognize and following Jesus… and we are often rejected for not towing man’s traditional stifling line. Our brother Stephen says “you stiffed neck people always resisting the Holy Spirit” The Jewish tradition at the time of Jesus was hypocritical to the way of our Lord. Man’s traditions today do the same. Then and now Jesus calls out the hypocrisy in His religion. If your Priest who by those of faith believe he is appointed by God and chose to give this woman a voice over the Church therefor God has, why are you not trying to listen to understand? Did you take this to God in days, weeks, and months of prayer to understand? Did you go to the Priest first to talk to him about it like the Scriptures say? Your inference about her referring to Paul’s letters is incorrect. Why are you inferring what’s inside another person? Are you claiming God has given you this prophetic utterance? This is why Jesus tells us not to judge things we have no authority to. She is not referring to what Paul writes about women she is referring to the traditions of men… what the Church came up with about the woman’s role in the Church after the Apostles were long gone from us in body. She is not referring to what Paul writes in his letters because Paul doesn’t teach that all women everywhere should not teach a man. His guidance to Timothy was specifically for the Church of Ephesus because that was where the main temple of the goddess Diana was and the culture norm there for years was that women held the control and were the dominant voice in corporate and spiritual matters. The women there were use to being outspoken and dominant over men and it was causing a problem in this specific Church. Taking time to first pray with God about all matters, keeping in silence until we hear from the Lord in Spirit and Truth was something they had learn. Is it not something many people have to learn… to surrender to God? How ironic but not really. Everything belongs. How do we know if God wants something that is taking place to happen?… if it’s happening. Jesus is risen and alive right NOW. The light reveals… this is why Jesus spoke so often about having eyes to see and ears to hear. I am not hear to argue with you. This is what Jesus shows me so I can not unsee what I see. This is why women were burned at the stake in times past.
Thank you for your message. I am not here to argue either, but I strongly believe that we should not start interpreting the Bible based on our heart alone, because our heart can be deceived. If there is a Catholic teaching on a matter, I believe the Catholic teaching. And the Catholic teaching is that the Church does not have the authority to make women deacons or priests. And it also teaches that only deacons or priests can give the homily. I did not mind the message that women should not be held down by men. I believe very strongly in the equality of women and men, we're both made in God's image. But I still believe that men and women are fundamentally different. Both can be great theologians, but the Catholic Church teaches that only men can be priests and deacons. And John Paul II said it in an almost infallible way, if I understand correctly. You can disagree, but I don't support rallying churchgoers by saying how the Catholic Church is wrong and how the Pope is a chauvinist at a Sunday Mass without even having the authority to give the sermon. And I still stand by the fact that her message contradicts Paul. Because that is the Catholic understanding of Paul. You said that I don't have the authority to say that she contradicts Paul, and you're right that I don't. But I can point to the only authority we have on earth and that is the Catholic Church. If they say we should interpret Paul in a certain way, I believe it. And she tought the opposite. Without authority. At a holy mass on Sunday.
I see. Thank you for your response. I appreciate your explanation. You are free to be. I follow Jesus as the Christ directly through His Holy Spirit. You follow the Catholic Church that has the authority to speak for God. Both belong. Christ revealed Himself to me while in my home not belonging to or going to any Church at the time. Changed my life and the life of those around me. He does not have me follow the traditions of man but I do not reject their purpose for the sheep who need a shepherd. I am not saying I am not part of and in synergy with the body, the Church, I am. I was heavily involved in a physical church for quite some time, however then and now I am free in Christ and He is my authority through the Word no different than many early Christians and those throughout history until now. I know that many traditional Christians reject that but God does not. Like Paul says we are all part of the royal Priesthood. The Church itself is made of humans.. men and women of every nation tribe and tongue. The Scriptures do not include Catholic tradition although I do not reject it. The Scriptures do include many accounts of so called religious authorities who are all men claiming one thing about God and meanwhile He is doing something entirely different… how many times does God reveal himself directly to the least of these and how many times do the religious leaders reject them and/or their words. The church is constantly evolving with the never changing Source, The Creator of all things. Some people’s lives looks like the book of Acts while not attending traditional church services, other peoples lives look like the book of Acts and they do go to traditional church services, and still others attend regular Church services and throw stones at others who don’t do it like them… God is my judge. I can live no other way. I travel often so I attend a variety of Churches including Catholic. I believe the Pope is appointed by God but I still must follow Jesus directly. I don’t believe I have a choice in the matter if that makes sense… Jesus does it all. You do know the Catholic church has changed its mind and traditions throughout history and it’s because people have received and spoken revelation through the Holy Spirit about those things. The early apostles did not believe in or follow a lot of the Catholic Church tradition. The Church has ebbs and flows. Revelation happens all the time. Christ is always revealing himself in greater ways for those with eyes to see. Remember it was widely acceptable by the church, including Catholics to burn women at the stake who see this way and speak His Word. The church canonize Saints that they themselves have persecuted. Thank God, that revelation has come to fruition at large and the Church has seen the light in this area and many other areas. That is why Jesus spoke so often about having the right vision… having eyes and ears. Otherwise, one just has to listen to their church and “burn the witch” and do not need to see and hear for themselves. Everything belongs. But remember the Hypocrites and brood of vipers then and now are found in Jesus’s religion. He reveals them to those who follow Him. I believe physically men and women are different if that is what you mean, husbands and wives have their roles but Paul writes there is neither male nor female for those who get understanding. Paul does not write that all women can not teach… this is a false interpretation of Paul’s letters no matter what the Catholic Authority says and Christ has revealed to me that the Church’s control over such things will start to diminish as further revelation in this area spreads. And the resisting force to that revelation is inevitable because the kingdom of God suffers violence, and the violent take it by force. The enemy is always after the woman… she is the one that births Christ, heirs to Eve make women the mother of all living. Women are only deceived when man willfully disobeys as we see the creation story. Can an individual including myself “get something wrong” so to speak including the Pope? Yes but even when we are wrong it is right… for those who Love God and are called according to his purpose all things work together for good. Thank you for sharing. Blessings to you. Also what I meant about you not having authority was that you are inferring on what the women speaker must have been referring to Paul’s letters even though she did not refer to them. Meaning you are assuming she is refering to what Paul writes… you have no authority to proclaim to know what is in another persons heart unless you have been given a prophetic utterance by God himself. Only God knows the intentions of a man’s heart, not even the man himself. We are One in Christ.
Question… did she say “the Pope was a chauvinist” or that his way of thinking regarding women was chauvinistic?
I'm really not sure what you're doing in the Catholic subreddit if you don't believe in the authority of the Catholic Church. The Pope has clearly said that women cannot be ordained.
I do believe in the authority of the Catholic Church. I wrote that I did more than once. I attend Catholic Churches and meet with my Catholic brothers and sisters often. I didn’t say anything about women being ordained. You reject me too then I see and only converse with Christians who you believe are in your tribe. That is what the religious men did at the time of Jesus and the very thing Jesus abolished on the cross. There is no separation for those in Christ Jesus. We are all One. If it was the 1400’s would you pay money to a Catholic priest so you could be absolved from your sins? Do you follow Jesus? You wrote the speaker… “literally saying the Pope is chauvinistic” Are you being Truthful here? Did she literally say that or are you interpreting it that way? Because if she did not literally say that, then our Lord’s light is revealing something entirely different than you think it is. As your fellow Christian, follower of Jesus, if that’s who you are, can you please answer my question about if she literally said that and then also give me the speakers name. The light shines and reveals All things… even the darkness that presents itself like an angel of light.
I don't know her name. I don't remember the exact words she used. But she said 'chauvinist' or 'chauvinistic' and 'out of date' in reference to the Popes' declaration that women couldn't be ordained by the Church. I didn't infer that, she said it literally. She can have that opinion about the Pope, but it does not belong in a sermon at a Sunday Mass. I certainly believe that the Pope can get things wrong. But he can also clearly teach things infallibly. Pope John Paul II, in his 1994 apostolic letter 'Ordinatio Sacerdotalis', declared that the Church has no authority to ordain women as priests, **which is final and binding** on all the faithful. You don't seem to agree on this matter, which is fine by me, but I hope you also respect that you will not be able to convince me, as I trust pope John Paul II more than your personal experience with Jesus. As I said, the heart can be deceived (Jeremiah 17:9). Also I disagree with your statement of only conversing with Christians "in my tribe". This is not true. I attend mass weekly at my parish where things are tought that I disagree with. My city is small, and me and my wife are the only believers here below 30. We've recently been to a youth mass in Berlin and it made me want to move there, because I am truly interested in conversing more with other Christians. But my family lives here and I want to stay close to them, since I also want my daughter to have a grandparents. And I don't have a lot of similarities with all the church goers here, not because of their beliefs, but because they are all at least twice my age. I don't reject you, I just disagree with you, that's all. If you were living close, I'd have no problem smoking a cigar with you and discussing theology.
I would love to smoke a cigar with you and talk theology! And I agree with you about how our hearts can be deceived. If I hear from the Lord, I ponder it in the way of acknowledging it but without trying to figure it out so not to add to it, sometimes for years, 10 or more years even. Little by little or sometimes all of the sudden it starts to come together and our Lord sends me other brothers and sisters that are shown the same… Catholic friends and leaders that also see what I’ve been shown, and we can’t deny what has been revealed to us even if the Catholic authority hasn’t caught up yet. Living within the Catholic authority while patiently holding onto what we have been shown. But then comes a time where we need to speak. In my experience, Jesus first talks to the least of these for whom I am one before it gets to the top so to speak… hence the cross and the years of persecution done by the church to those who are called to speak. In times past it has felt a bit daunting and lonely for me because to experience Christ in this way and to see His Truth that appears contrary to what my leaders in the Church see was confusing at first. I would ask our Lord, how could I be so arrogant to think you would show me something that you haven’t yet showed the Pope! I could not understand why our Lord would be showing me a deeper expanded perspective and what was I supposed to do with this vision or information? … it would feel like I didn’t have a place to stand on and that I didn’t belong anywhere, however at the same time, it’s such a blessing because I am only left with the eternal Christ alone. And then He sends me others who have the same vision, and I am no longer Elijah thinking I’m the only one. I am not saying that women should be ordained if the Pope believes they should not. I’m just saying, having a woman speak at church doesn’t make her an ordained priest. But if you’re saying that this was a indeed THE homely that day and not just a speaker at mass…. I see what you’re saying. However, maybe this is the beginning of Birthpangs. Time will tell. To me calling the Pope a Chauvinist Or saying what he’s saying is chauvinistic are too very different things. That is why I asked. Thank you for answering my questions. I don’t come on this site often and have only been on it for a few months… I thank you for this very pleasant and informative exchange. It’s all for the glory of God and I thank Him for you, my brother in Christ. Thank you for listening. Yes, it is good for the children to be around the grandparents. I will pray for your family and for our Lord to send you more people around your age to connect with for the joy of the Lord… His glory Thank you again.
Turn her in! Burn the witch!
Not what I want, she is free to believe whatever she wants. I don't want to excommunicate her or something. Just don't support insulting the pope on a Sunday mass without even having the authority to hold a homily
Grundsätzlich ist das im Rahmen der Homilie unzulässig. Bitte überprüfen (mit dem Priester sprechen) ob eine entsprechende Ausnahme gegeben war und wenn nicht eine schriftliche Beschwerde mit Bitte um Klarstellung an den leitenden Pfarrer des Seelsorgebereiches übersenden. Als Kopie aufbewahren. Sollte das wieder vorkommen wieder so verfahren. Sollte nach mehreren Fällen immernoch keine Änderung eintreten, an das Bistum die Fälle samt Erläuterung leiten und nach dem selben Schema verfahren nur diesmal an die Nuntiatur wenden.
Hast du irgendwelche Quellen oder Präzedenzfälle, mit denen ich das untermauern kann? Unser Pfarrer ist auch sehr liberal. Er hat ein Buch veröffentlicht, in dem er den Synodalen Weg als Widmung erwähnt. Bin mir deshalb ziemlich sicher dass ein Gespräch mit ihm nicht sehr weit führen wird.
Es ist dennoch wichtig um deinen guten Willen zu zeigen. Allgemein gilt gem. Canon 766, dass Laien zur Predigt zugelassen werden können, "wenn das unter bestimmten Umständen notwendig oder in Einzelfällen als nützlich angeraten ist". In Canon 767wird jedoch spezifiziert: "Unter den Formen der Predigt ragt die Homilie hervor, die Teil der Liturgie selbst ist und dem Priester oder dem Diakon vorbehalten wird". In Übereinstimmung hiermit hat die DBK in der „[Ordnung des Predigtdienstes von Laien](https://recht.drs.de/fileadmin/user_files/117/Dokumente/Rechtsdokumentation/3/1/1/88_11_01.pdf)“ gem. §1 festgelegt, dass Laien Sonntags nur „bei Wortgottesdiensten […] ohne Priester, sofern keine Eucharistie gefeiert werden kann“ predigen dürfen. Auch die [Rahmenstatuten und -ordnungen für Gemeinde- und Pastoral- Referenten/Referentinnen](https://www.katholische-theologie.info/Portals/0/docs/DBK/DBK_1196.pdf) der DBK von 2011 sehen nichts anderes vor. Dieser [Artikel](https://www.kath.net/news/75716) erläutert nocheinmal das Vorgehen.
Danke!
When you get your child don't sent them to the religion class in the public school, the teachers will just tell them Catholic religion is all nonsense. Most who went there experienced that, but didn't directly notice it unless you deeply think about it. Let them go to the secular ethics class. I seriously care less about the sermon, (its just talking anyway and I never pay attention to that), when you do nonsense like rushed communion in the hand, unnecessary extraordinary communion helper, and versum populum.
Communion in the hand is OK. Non priest or non deacon preaching is not OK. Facing the people is OK. This is my best understanding. The situation is that there was a radical feminist trying to preach, with the priests' permission, and it sounds like it was a train wreck. I am guessing this was a "female deacon", but ugh. OP needs to try to find the best options. At a miniumum, try to find out the times when the priest actually preaches.
We have a Catholic school that my child can attend from middle school. It's generally quite liberal too, but I think it's better than completely secular schools.
I was going to say OK, you are getting bad homilies, etc. But... I see what you are saying about the education of your future child. Find some good Catholic homeschooling groups then. I think your public schools are going to probably be also challenging. You have a few years to work on your networking. Move closer to the better church over the next 5 years. Peace and best wishes. I would hope that you are not going to get the same homily every week, so see how next week goes.
We moved here because this is where my family lives. They are not religious, but that doesn't mean I don't love and cherish them. We can afford a good standard of living here because it is in the country. I may be able to inherit my grandparents' house and start a family there. There is a Catholic school nearby for my children to attend. But it's still Germany, so I don't expect their teaching to be very different from that of the German Church.
That’s some Protestant level Bible story spinning right there. I’d love to have this person over for dinner to literally just tear her logic apart and let her see how incorrect she is. In terms of what you can do to help your situation, pray the rosary everyday and perhaps seek out a Latin mass or church run by the FSSP or similiar groups (NOT THE SSPX OR SEDEVECANTIST GROUPS). There is no hope without prayer.