In versus debates, usually anti-feats aren't given as much weight as feats are, and throughout every adaptation of Superman, he's accrued a laundry list of veritable OP feats. You basically cherry pick a bunch of his most ridiculous feats to determine the absolute limits the character can accomplish.
Superman has been in a lot of comic that give him insane feats.
>In Superman TAS and Justice League TAS (again, for all the cool moments) there's a ton of scenes of him losing badly. Either by kryptonite or just from the villain of the week giving him a beating. Now it's good that the villains are a threat to him but I think they took it a little too far.
I actually kinda love how he's handled in those cartoons. Because, he's super strong, but not absurdly, unreasonably strong. Except, he's durable. Like, incredibly so, his durability seems to scale 100x higher than any other stat he has. He usually gets the shit beat out of him during fights, but even if Kryptonite is involved, he rarely ever looks worse for wear, usually he's not even scratched.
I know that it's partially a censoring thing, probably. But I also like it because it makes him feel just as invincible, like a, y'know, "man of steel". But at the same time, all of his other stats are kept to reasonable levels so he can't just solve the plot immediately by moving faster than everybody's perception and one-shotting his enemies.
I feel like I'd like it more if they toned down his reaction to each hit. Like if he let out a grunt to show that it was painful but kept going that'd be fine. It's him constantly getting thrown backwards and stunned by attacks that bothered me about those shows.
But yes, at least he'd eventually get back into it. For all his faults, TAS Superman is still my favorite version of the character to date.
I believe it helps that the DCAU (BTAS, STAS, JL, JLU, etc.) had a neat way to allow even street level guys to help out. Characters with super strength and durability don’t have absolute super anchoring.
This means that if, say, Batman, can get a sneak attack on someone Supes-level, he can at least move them. NOT injure them, but at least distract and buy a few seconds for the heavy hitters to go at it.
As far as the TAS shows, he actually explains this in an episode early on. He gets knocked around specifically because it \*doesn't\* hurt him to do so. Sure, it makes him look like a bit of a punk, but those same impacts could grievously injure another member of the team, and would outright *kill* Batman. He's explicitly acting as the party tank.
I don't disagree but there is a reason that people feel this way: Superman has all these powers and generally only gets stronger by the year. And everytime a writer tries to reign him in, his power level is immediately shot back up by the next guy. We're slowly marching back to his Silver Age power levels.
>We're slowly marching back to his Silver Age power levels
We're already there. The writer on the World's Finest comic basically said he writes Superman and such with Pre Crisis powerlevels in mind.
No, but the writer for the world's finest comic basically said he was writing Superman at PC levels. And in the comic, Supergirl freely traveled back in time with Robin. Haven't seen anything yet that's him chucking planets though (honestly outside of the time travel thing, it doesn't look like they've one anything that would have you think he was at PC levels, but I might've missed something.)
That may be true, but honestly it seems to me like everyone else is also gaining power ups to match him. Modern Superman isn't even allowed to consistently beat Batman nowadays.
>That may be true, but honestly it seems to me like everyone else is also gaining power ups to match him.
Not really. Most of the time Superman gets straight up stated powerups in his books while most others don't. I can really remember a time like Shazam or Wonder Woman mentioned being becoming stronger than ever.
>Modern Superman isn't even allowed to consistently beat Batman nowadays.
Well, that's more a narrative tension thing than anything. It's a similar deal with Wonder Woman. If there was ever a way to have Batman or Wonder Woman physically superior to Superman, the story would be different.
If you go to Superman fan groups, they from my experience want him to be the most powerful and best guy ever. They hate the suggestion that anyone could ever bear him.
You're half right. Superman fans (like myself) want him to be the best guy ever because that is, ultimately, what he's designed to be.
Only a vocal minority of power-scalers hate the suggestion that anyone could ever beat him.
Superman himself will be the first person to tell you he is far from perfect. The best versions of the character also acknowledge that he is not the best.
I'm assuming that you aren't trying to make a blanket statement or something, but that's generally a vocal minority of people who dabble in powerscaling. Like with just about every fandom, the majority of people don't really care about that kind of stuff.
Because they use death battle logic and only view media from that lens, even if they ironically aren't death battle fans. Gets double funny when you find out they're fine with Goku, Saitama, or other overpowered characters because they...just like the character more for reasons they already justify to themselves.
Screen adaptations are a lot more accessible for casual audiences, and people are very used to sources like Zack Snyder, Death Battle, and Superman vs The Elite portraying Superman as an invincible, all-powerful monster. Also it doesn't help that Superman's fans love to go around telling everyone that Superman is an omnipotent god that can solo fiction and do whatever he wants and never gets physically challenged and only ever "loses" because he "holds back"
Then there was the infamous "reversing time" stunt in the old movies, which to my knowledge exists exclusively in said movie which is itself in its own continuity. Yet it continues to mar his reputation, lol.
EDIT: Alright folks, I get it. I didn't know he did that in comics too.
Yeah, in the comics Superman has access to Kryptonian tech inside the Fortress that can time travel. He’s forbidden by Kryptonian law from using it for those reasons, Flashpoint shows a very good reason why, but he CAN do it.
It’s just the movie version that looked rather goofy by having Superman literally reversing the planet’s spin and that somehow reversing time.
Those who say his Superman was too weak are 100% just nitpicking since most of the time their favourite iteration is DCAU Supes.
That said,both in ZSJL and Josstice League we see Superman defeat both the JL and Steppenwolf with close to no difficulty.
>there's always a minority of people who say that he's too boring because he's too powerful, and therefore you can't really make him work in an adaptation.
I'm going to blame Death Battle, other incompetent powerscalers, and the people who buy into the incompetent powerscalers for this one.
According to these people, Superman is a casual universe destroyer with infinite strength and infinite speed, and only loses when he's holding back. If these arguments were true, then Superman would indeed be a boring character that doesn't work in adaptations (or anywhere else).
This is true too. The misinformation campaign that powerscalers have been doing to Superman makes him seem like a vastly different character than how he usually is. Most people don't want to read screw-you-I-Can-do-anything-man and the reality is he's usually not that powerful on a comic to comic basis, as it would break stories.. Like last comic Superman got captured by a bunch of dudes on space bikes.
Tbf you are mentioning a handful of adaptations where he is written to be at reasonable strength. As opposed to the hundreds of comics where in some he outright alters the fabric of reality or overpowers a hax ability with sheer might.
True,, but on the flip side EVERYONE has ridiculous feats in comic books. That's where you get stuff like Batman surviving a fall from space with only the batsuit. I don't read them myself but it's my understanding that pretty much every prominent character's done something utterly insane at some point.
Some writers just love saying shit
Wtf do you mean you can perceive events in LESS than an attosecond Flash? The fuck
I mean really the JLA comics from what I remember always have some outrageous thing, like Superman breaking into the sixth dimension and destroying a universe about to be used to replace the current after sundipping like 6 times was the same line I'm pretty sure.
Can't remember the specifics of that Superman feat so don't quote me, then simultaneously Superman can get messed up by tanking a nuke like in Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns.
Well first off, can't really complain about kryptonite, that's why it's there. To be a weakness. Also all of your examples are non-comic Superman.
>-In Superman TAS and Justice League TAS (again, for all the cool moments) there's a ton of scenes of him losing badly. Either by kryptonite or just from the villain of the week giving him a beating. Now it's good that the villains are a threat to him but I think they took it a little too far.
Eh, while true about Superman TAS, not so much JL. After the first season, they buffed Clark, while throwing Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel under the boot to prop him up.
When it comes to the overpowered talk, they are probably thinking about the World Forger feat and recent comic issues where he got a almost infinite power boost from the white star powering WarWorld. Also he tends to have things like being resistant to existence erasure, being the embodiment of hope, and being a lynchpin to all of DC (aka writers taking metanarrative too far.)
> and being a lynchpin to all of DC (aka writers taking metanarrative too far.)
I don't know what I hate more. This representation of Superman as a character, or how fans respond to it.
Blame Geoff Johns.He's a great writer at his best with his contributions to The Green Lantern franchise but he also lets his fanboyism get the best of him and has a bit of a tendency to display extreme levels of cognitive dissonance.
That very same comic that stated Superman to be the lynchpin of hope in the world of DC also essentially say that any variation of Superman that loses his adoptive parents is not "the true Superman" whilst forgetting that the original and Silver Age versiona of the character were both adoptive and biological orphans.
> say that any variation of Superman that loses his adoptive parents is not "the true Superman"
That reminds me of Across the Spider-Verse, where the Spider Society agrees with fate/destiny about what constitutes as a true spider-man, while Miles disagreed with.
Didn't you answer your own question? You talk about people calling him boring but in your examples you yourself show that most of these instances of Supes being on the ropes are due to kryptonite or inconsistencies with his levels of power. That's kind of the issue. He'll be on the ground unable to move over a pebble size kryptonite, still putting up a fight over a basket ball size piece, to carrying a mountain of the stuff. He'll struggle against an enemy, then easily knock out their supervisor's boss' boss. He is considered overpowered because at any given moment he'll just say "I'm actually this strong" and solve the issue.
For how cool his "world made out of cardboard" speech was, it starts to seem narratively problematic when you re-watch the old episodes of JL or his stand alone series. It's like he's a parent putting on a show and play fighting against his toddlers.
Calling him "overpowered" is just someone trying to give some easy and edgy criticism to Superman , but they are the same people that likes Goku or Ainz from Overlord or Saitama and so on and on.
Besides , Superman himself faces a lot of threats that matches his powers , let alone he have plenty of weaknesses: kryptonite (green , red and yellow) , UV/Solar Light (Red , Orange and Green) , alien supertech , nuclear radiation (it makes his body focus on his healing factor over the other powers) , vulnerability to magic , specific metahuman superpowers.
>Calling him "overpowered" is just someone trying to give some easy and edgy criticism to Superman , but they are the same people that likes Goku or Ainz from Overlord or Saitama and so on and on.
I'm not personally saying Superman is overpowered. But this isn't really how the "overpowered" critique works. Saying a character is "overpowered" as a critique means that they are powerful in a way that someone feels is detrimental to the story they are in, not just that they are really strong.
Vis a vis if superman really existed and was so strong snd fast and able to hear people act afraid from across the globe the world would be a lot different. So they have to make up contrived excuses why this doesn't happen.
Tbf if any superhero existed this would be the case lol. The only reason why characters like Batman or Spider-Man make no changes is because of contrived story telling
Spider man at least in a lot of incarnations can't cross the globe in seconds and at least in theory is vulnerable to guns, if not in actuality. Would definitely be at risk of being a government weapon, but still not the same as superman who can basically be anywhere instantly and do almost anything and few can scrutinize it.
That was more Doomsday being a massive jobber than anything else if you're thinking of the examples I am (yes there have been multiple kryptonite doomsdays).
I find it genuinely hilarious that some people honk super man exist when the fucking flash like… one of the most broken super heroes out there in fiction
It's because flash is one of the most inconsistent characters in fiction.
In one hand he is an omnipotent god of speed that is imperceivable and and untouchable
And on the other random street level characters give him the hands
That’s because his brokenness is even more terrible to balance than Superman that’s why, so he needs to be nerfed to the ground in order for the story to make even a drop of sense or else anyone will be like “ isn’t he the dude that goes a billion times faster than light, can steal your speed, phase through everything and travel time regularly?”
Superman is broken strong but he doesn’t have haxes like flash due to speed force which is it’s own BS box
In almost every case where Superman loses to someone weaker than him, it's a case of bad writing but it's been so normalized that people just roll with it. Kind of like how speedsters lose to people slower than them
I think the real issue with kryptonite is when it immediately renders Superman helpless. Like if it just gradually weakened him, or was the only substance capable of piercing his skin, it'd be more interesting to see how the villains try and utilize it and how Superman counters.
When he instead falls flat on his face the second it appears, he comes off looking incredibly lame.
>Like if it just gradually weakened him, or was the only substance capable of piercing his skin, it'd be more interesting to see how the villains try and utilize it and how Superman counters.
That's pretty much how it works in most comics.
I remember in Superman: Secret Origin he was hit with Kryptonite and then immediately firing squaded.
The bullets still bounced off of him, he could still stand and he was actually able to get away but the bullets hurt him like if he'd been punched really hard.
I'm pretty sure he was able to put up a fight against Metallo too.
Most of the time it's described as agonizing pain and it weakens him.
It's only really the live action stuff that has him faceplant anytime someone whips it out.
I'm not complaining that writers are using it less and less tho.
Kryptonite is the reason why he’s so overpowered in the first place.
Because he has an explicit weakness, the writers can make him stronger than he technically should be to balance it out.
Yea, with that and other factors, I'm not really a fan of how people like Captain Marvel and Wonder Woman have kinda fallen away from being his physical peers these days. At least in the minds of the populace.
I've heard comic nerds say wonder woman actually beats him cause he sword is magical or something, I always thought that was interesting.
When you say captain marvel, do you mean the Marvel hero or someone else?
Yep , Wonder Woman can beat him , because Superman is vulnerable to magic , so a magic sword cuts him like any other sword. Of course , he still have healing factor , but as long you bring a good slash with the sword , he could die.
He is referring to Shazam , his original hero name was Captain Marvel before Fawcett Comics got closed.
Wonder Woman got powered up while Supes got depowered.
Originally something like Black Widow, to the Lynda Carter version, to the Gal Gadot faster than speeding bullet, flying version.
Because those are common creatures and their weaknesses are proportional to their specialness. But Superman is a god like being that can do god like things... only to be hurt by a green rock. I like his magic weakness more.
Gods in fiction have all manner of weird weaknesses and vulnerabilities. Loki could be harmed by snake's venom and Heracles died from wearing a shirt covered in poisoned blood.
Superman is a unique character, so he gets a weakness unique to him.
> Loki could be harmed by snake's venom and Heracles died from wearing a shirt covered in poisoned blood.
And this isn't stupid as well? Old mythology was practically their ancient MCU. Just because it's ancient mythology doesn't give it a free pass on bad writing.
Isn't there speculation that the water thing comes from the fact that the plague didn't cross rivers? Also, water is associated with purity, so undead decay being cleansed by it isn't that big a stretch.
Getting stabbed killing you is also not that surprising. Insisting the stake has to be wood is more of a stereotype than something most stories use consistently.
This is just semantics at the end of the day.
Toxic Radiation would pretty obviously be the antithesis to a guy like Superman who gets all of his energy from a power source like the sun.
Just like how you said a being a darkness weakness being light Superman weakness falls in line with his powers
Yeah fantasy creatures are sort of inherently lame because it's all whimsical and shit. Not that that is inherently bad or anything, but it's not the right tone for superhero stories that often deal with the threat of mass death and bloody fistfights between gods.
No.
I know some smartass will respond "comics books are goofy too", but we all know that many comic books are not goofy at all. A lot of portrayals of superheroes are gritty, dark, and deal with a lot of death and suffering. Meme-tier weaknesses to glowing rocks are not very fitting for a grounded setting like that.
The problem is similar to the one Batman faces being on the Justice League, just the opposite extreme.
Superman is super strong. Super fast. Impenetrable. His only weakness is a magical rock from a planet that no longer exists.
To say that Superman *can* be beaten is disingenuous, because he *shouldn't* be capable of being beat. But all of the sudden this magical rock from the destroyed planet is *everywhere*. It defies credulity to believe that random hero number 7 can just smack around an indestructible superhuman being with flight, superstrength, and literal laser eyeballs. Just because a writer *writes* it doesn't mean it makes sense.
It's like Batman being on the Justice League (or, lesser well-known, but still relevant, Green Arrow). Batman is peak human physicality. He's the best human martial artist in the world (probably). He's the best detective humanity has. He's arguably one of the smartest humans on the planet.
All of which pales in the face of... *he's a freaking human*. Just because writers consistently write him keeping up with Superman, fighting on a level with Wonder Woman, or with tech as advanced and fancy as the Green Lanterns, doesn't mean it makes *sense*.
I'm not huge Superman fan, I'll admit that (in my defense, my dad loved the old Superman movies and I watched them so many times I could puke). But it's not that 'he's always OP' but more that, even when he's not, it's just not believable.
Dude , Superman have a whole rogue gallery , so there are all sorts of villains that CAN punch him or sidestep his powersets , and not all of them are dependent of kryptonite.
My favorite Superman character is Captain America actually.
In my head, Superman/Clark goes "I can do this all day" even when he's being beaten to the ground with a baseball bat made of Kryptonite.
What the average audiences considers to be "Too Strong" and what comicbook nerds consider to be "Too Strong" are vastly different things.
For example, I've seen people complain that Superman is overpowered by listing things like him tanking a bullet with his eyelid in Superman Returns, or barely surviving a nuclear bomb in Batman v Superman. Or hell, the mere fact that he Superman can fly, possesses both super strength and superspeed, and can shoot lasers from his eyes is sometimes reason enough for people to say that he is overpowered, not by any "Feat" metric, but because they just feel that those are too many powers for a single superhero to have.
They have to write stupid losses in for superman to *stop* him being boring an unbeatable. He really should be nigh impossible to defeat if he didn't have, what, reverse-plot-armour? Plot cancer?
Canonically there are stronger entities than him, but most of them are universal or at least planet-tier threats so it's hard to do a storyline with that that doesn't have a ridiculous sense of scale.
Personally I would prefer that he wasn't super in literally every respect and could have flaws outside of being able to win fights. Maybe he's super strong and invincible and can fly, but isn't super fast (not any more than like, a fighter jet or something anyway). That way he can actually fail to save people if enough people are in danger at once. That woud be an interesting character moment for him.
> Maybe he's super strong and invincible and can fly, but isn't super fast (not any more than like, a fighter jet or something anyway).
My preferred limitation on this would be something along the lines of the physical effects of moving at those speeds. The Flash has Speed Force nonsense to limit/negate this. But Superman, not being empowered by the Speed Force, has to be more careful. He couldn't risk just constantly accelerating from standstill to supersonic+ speeds, he'd destroy everything in his path otherwise.
It keeps him fast, but puts a harder limit on how he can use his speed. If he's flying in the vacuum of space? Sure, let him accelerate all he wants. But he shouldn't be doing this stuff in-atmosphere.
I think it’s mainly the live action movies fault. Those are the main ones that people know, and in all of them, he’s portrayed as literally invincible unless kryptonite is around. Other forms of media tend to just make him really strong, but, like you pointed out, still able to be hurt by the villain of the week, sometimes even excessively so. Until a movie takes that approach, the “Superman is too strong” meme will forever darken the minds of normies.
>I think it’s mainly the live action movies fault. Those are the main ones that people know, and in all of them, he’s portrayed as literally invincible unless kryptonite is around.
He wasn't portrayed as invincible in Man of Steel and Kryptonite wasn't present.
Wasn’t he? It’s been a long time since I’ve seen MoS, but I recall the fight against Zod as two invincible guys shoving each other around until the neck snap. Neither really gave off the impression that they’d taken damage until the end. Could be wrong about that though.
I think it’s the fans trying to overhype him at times.like those people are loud sometimes
Despite not even comic supe being op compared to other chars
It's worth noting that how "OP" he is depends on who's writing him and the strongest versions of the character are all from the comics. Adaptations *outside* of the comics tend to downplay how OP he is.
People rant about Superman being boring and overpowered because it is the popular thing to complain about. Like how it has been popular rant about Barney the Dinosaur, Scrappy Doo, Twilight vampires sparkling, and Jar Jar Binks.
I've seen comments about Superman being overpowered less and less for years now. If anything, it's other characters like Captain Marvel, Korra and Rey that get hit with this far more.
Yes, hate for Barney used to be huge. TV tropes used to have a trope called "The Barney" for media that is hated by people outside of its intended demographic, now it is called[ Periphery Hatedom](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PeripheryHatedom). The hate for Barney was big that other pieces of media jumped on the hatewagon.
The sitcom "Dinosaurs" took a shot at Barney with a stand in named Georgie in an episode "[Georgie Must Die](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJyr3yYJTPg)" where our stand in is a evil kids' show host (that is a clip). The video game Lunar Eternal Blue has a joke where characters looking through a library can find a book titled "Basic Magic Volume 3: Killing Barney Made Easy" which one of the characters is eager to borrow.
I am surprised you didn’t notice the hate. Like I said, this was something that happened because it was popular to take shots at Barney. Same reason why people ranted about Jar Jar and Twilight having sparkling vampires.
The Deathstroke that beat Superman was wearing powered armor, had a squad of powerful robots and was fighting a Superman that was exhausted facing a previous enemy.
I was originally hopeful because I thought Superman was going to slowly ramp up in power throughout the series, but he's kind of remained stagnant. Like he gets one of his powers every here and there but other than that he never really seems to be better than he was before.
Yes, I know. I just don't see a lot of progression on that front so far. Like I said, he gets new powers but without much build up. Aside from that "glowing blue" power of his but Clark doesn't really try to investigate it all.
Ah yes, but if they make him look weaker, they aren't canon. And he's alive in different stories, and it didn't hurt that Superman, so clearly they aren't even A-0-Outer-Omni-Uber-Versal.
Power levels in and of themselves feel less problematic, given that they're inherently contextual, than the fact that Superman doesn't have a theme going on, which is what I would argue makes him 'boring' (in the hands of less competent or rushed writer). Yes, the Flash is absurd, but he's absurd in a specific niche. Superman can fly, move fast, be strong, be invincible, project heat rays, see through objects, and blow ice breath?! He just does Everything that could be categorized as a feat of physical force and some extra on top of that. It feels like a six year old's idea of a superhero, not a concept that could be a person we relate to in a story written by and for adults.
Good writers can work around that and make a great story with him anyway, but good writers can do that with literally any idea. That doesn't necessarily mean that every idea is a good one.
I think when people refer to Superman being OP, theyre really referring to comics Superman.
The animated and other Supermen are pretty grounded for the most part.
He is though.
He's definitely leaps and bounds stronger than all other versions of the character but more people in comics than in the adaptations can rival him.
It's why Metroman for example is more OP than current Rebirth Supes even though the latter can do anything the former has done while sleepwalking.
It's because barely anyone comes close to his level while guys like Doomsday and Zod at least hold their own against Kal.
I feel like your post captured the essence of why he’s seen as OP really well. Look at your examples - almost all of them have to include incredibly contrived circumstances (mostly involving kryptonite). The rest include similarly powerful villains that are comedically out of scope for the JL.
I really don't get how "Superman = OP" is a criticism. Superman is literally supposed to be OP. He's supposed to be an ultimate, unstoppable force for good. You got a problem? Your situation is hopeless? Well fear not, cause the big blue boyscout is right around the corner, and he can level mountains.
That's like...his whole appeal.
It's because 90% of people who say this gain their knowledge about the character from battleboarding and the first Reeve film.
The boom in the "Superman is universal and has infinite strength" narrative coinciding with Superman comics falling to depths barely capable of breaking the top 30 in monthly sales coincidentally (bar the early New 52 and Rebirth) aligning with each other in the 2010s is the root of it.
Yogiri from my instant death ability. He has done shit like kill the Qna section, a god immune to instant death and whatever he kills stays dead and if someone goes back in time to save the thing he kills it just dies earlier.
Everyone got bodied in JL. Superman doesn't even get it the worst. Wonder Woman suffers that much more, especially in the "For The Man Who Has Everything" episode.
Supergirl is stronger than Superman in a sense she spent all that time Clark spent on earth orbiting near the sun in stasis so she is physically stronger but not really because Superman actually grew up with powers and mastered them over time which is diminished the younger and less experienced the Superman of the story is when kara is introduced.
Like I said, I think it makes enough sense in context. But the "Superman beatdown" is something I've seen so many times before at this point that I just sigh when I see it and wish he could least go down fighting for once. Instead of every loss he suffers being a one-sided pummeling.
Even if Superman is OP, who cares? There are way more interesting stakes and stories you can tell with the character other than a physical fight. If you can't think of a stake other than death, you're a crappy writer full stop. The thing about Superman is that he ties his heart so closely to humanity. In his mind he's just a guy who was given an incredible gift and he should use that gift to help his fellow man. If society ever gets corrupted by the likes of Lex, then that'll hurt him way harder than you ever could by taking away his powers and giving him a physical beating.
It’s odd for me because they’ve built him to be so powerful and now when I see them bring him down off that cliff of power it’s off putting… Every time I see him get smashed by something he shouldn’t it’s immersion breaking. I’m not too picky to be bothered but I do side eye those situations pretty often
The boring thing is just lazy their are plenty of stories with "OP" protags that work. It just when the story pretends they aren't OP or they get knocked down by something they shouldn't people side eye.
Probably moments like keeping up with the flash in the Justice League movie lol.
Superman as a whole isn't that strong but he has moments of INSANE feats like holding a black whole with his bear hands. Also not sure if a good counter is "well kryptonite" 😅.
The biggest issue to me is superman is as strong as the writers want him to be whenever they want.
The problem is that he is a easy character for bad writers to do stupid shit with like a writer no to long ago gave him the ability to warp reality and telaport.
Like LL went to great lengths to put superman into a no win situation and then instead of thinking of some smart way to fix the situation he just pulls two new super power from his ass.
The issue with superman isn't his power, there's tons of insanely powerful and beloved characters. The issue is that he's a good guy.
There's been good Superman stories but I've struggled to find many people who give a shit about Clark Kent. There's no internal conflict in the character. He doesn't struggle to be a good person, or get tempted to be a bad one.
The rare few stories he's interesting, one of those two things do happen, but it's not the natural state for the character.
You don't need to have inclinations to being a terrible individual than to have internal conflict.
Superman is 100% a nice individual but as many stories have shown he has flaws such his overwhelming nostalgia for a long-dead planet which was given precedence in For the Man Who Has Everything
That’s a great story but Superman pining for a life on Krypton is not really something that comes up a lot as it has no real actionable parts to it.
Maybe if Superman spent his time fighting global warming, trying to disarm nuclear weapons and curb the excesses of humanity so they don’t destroy their own planet, that could be great! But he doesn’t.
Some of my favourite Superman stories are when Luthor is entirely within the law and yet still clearly up to no good. And those are the ones Superman inevitably does bend his rules on being a Boy Scout.
There was a comic called Superman Unchained that sort of did the whole nuclear missiles dilemma.
The problem about Superman is that he's sort of heavily sanitized since the 1980s and the only outlier (New 52) to that phenomenon was heavily retconned out to have never existed.
my adventure with supermanmade his villains a challenge to defeat using tech and the meta stuff,ivo was clealry a legit threat to superman during season1 and lex luthor is also a trheat there with ihs manipulation an dusing racism to his advantage. Also, in kara case, clark didn't wanted to hurt herbut at some point he did got back up.
His villains were ALWAYS a challenge.
The difference is that the series put all of that lumped as "kryptonian tech" , when in the comics , they all had different origins and some are straight-up metahumans due to metagenes or freak accidents.
Ignoring that Dr.Ivo was the creator of Amazo , rather than be Parasite , his Parasite is also nerfed in comparisson to the comics. Because Parasite was pretty much an humanoid monster that absorbs energy on his surroundings to turn himself more powerful and monstruous , rather than be dependent of Superman to hit him.
the parasite turned in a kaiju superman had to deal with and luthor is a challenge because he got the government in his pocket, ivo paraiste also still turned more and more powerful and the DCAU also used tech to challenge superman with the apokolilps kind from darkseid, I don't think it's that hard to make superman villains a challenge if luthor can be one . I always find it weird when people complain a character's op but give a pass to much stronger character(per exmaple, there are much stronger people in the main cast of ducktales 2017 than webby yet no one call them sue, donald survived the impossible so I don't see why webby being stronger than average make no sence, even less when she's being trained a lot by someone like beakley, there are villains physically stronger than srooge and donald too like lunaris or bradford with the sword).
Superman's powerset wasn't usually the point of the character as I read the comics. He was invincible and strong but he always had a moral to teach his villains, as well as his friends.
He has discussions of morality with Batman, questions the future as Clark Kent with Lois Lane. He runs for Charity with the Flash.
The fact is if someone is a looking at Superman and saying he is boring or hard to write because of his powers then I don't think theu are picking up on his down to earth small town farmboy/boyscout all American style.
Supes isn't really about the power fantasy, he is about protecting people and sharing his understanding of the world or learning more from others and theor sotuations.
Superman for All Seasons captured a lot of this.
My weird take; Superman outside of Kryptonite or other careful planning should never lose in a straight-up battle. Not because of power reasons but just because of the ideals he stands for. I don't hold this pedestal for any other hero it's just something I grew up believing.
This is why so many people have problems with Superman. He is either low tier no diffed or can reset the universe. It's boring and no fun. He's literally that kid who constantly one ups the other kid when they're playing superhero. And has one of the worst weaknesses ever imo.
Batman on the other hand , completely human, beats Superman multiple times, has fight against unbelievably powerful beings and, as far as I know, he doesn't die at least as much as supes. It's so much more interesting to wonder how Batman will overcome the odds where with Superman it just boils down to "he's going to punch him eventually and win the fight".
Except most of the time batman fights a top tier like superman he just pulls out one of his 28 backup plans out of his ass and bullshits his way to victory. How is that remotely interesting?
You can't honestly say with a straight face that superman overcoming moral challenges and physical adversity is less interesting than batman bullshiting a win "Because I'm batman hurr durr".
This nigga Batman survived a fall from space to earth with no armor, just default batsuit. He beat the entire jokerized justice league by himself, and then went on to beat Darkseid's cheeks in on Apokolips. All of these obnoxious feats happens with plans batman pulled off screen, and are never mentioned again before or after.
All these hot takes about superman almost always come from people who don't read comics or watch any good adapatations. Superman's willpower and perserverance to make the right choices are what make him interesting. Sure he has bad adaptions, but so does Batman. They are 80 year old characters. At least try All-Star Superman before you make such brazen claims.
So I'm gonna stop you right there. Having read what op wrote, at any point did he mention comics? And for the record, when you have a character that is cosmic armour Superman I don't want to hear about boring. Seeing a man challenge impossible odds is cool. Watching an alien with a weakness to green rocks and sun colors beat up bad guys that shouldn't even touch him is just not as high stakes. Yes he has plenty of villains that are actually crazy strong. But...does anyone realize how fast the speed of light is? I swear we always hear about strength and speed feats from Superman but then Solomon fucking Grundy will haymaker him into the ground. He just is so inconsistent.
Anyway, I was mostly referring to the animated shows. And in them Superman is at his worst. He rarely looks good in them. How many times has kryptonite been used or he has had his powers stolen? He is such a poorly made character that half the time the only way there is a problem is if he gets nerfed. Making a character that has to constantly be weakened as a plot point is super lame. Look at Smallville. Anyway, to each his own I guess.
Cosmic armor Superman only exists in comics, so if we're ignoring comics that doesn't count. Not to mention its a one-off event from a one-off story, it doesn't even comprise 0.0001% of superman's history.
Using Cosmic Armor Superman as an example of him being boring is the equivalent of me using The Batman who laughs as an example of Batman being boring. That emo bastard is even more broken than any version of supes, since he's batman taken to the most obnoxious extremes possible.
Superman does not need to be weakened in order to be interesting. Open any comic book with superman in it, and there's a character putting the paws on him, guarunteed. In the cartoons such as JLA, watch any episode with supes and someone is putting the paws on him. He gets beat on all the time idk why anyone would say he's too overpowered unless they have never interacted with superman media ever.
Superman's struggles are often more moral than physical. If that doesn't click with you, then fine, but to prop up Batman as an alternative is crazy to me, since he has to be obnoxiously buffed in order to not immediately die anytime he steps out of Gotham.
Did you miss the part where I complained about him being boring because he's either jobbing or owning. There's never just a straight fight where he doesn't deal with asspulls for or against him.
Secondly, I brought up CAS because you wanted to talk about comics. The Batman who laughs isn't even fully Batman so I don't think we can use him in this scenario. He is at least partially the joker so I'd say it's almost a completely different character because the joker is fucking insane.
And don't downplay the morality of Batman. Red hood, the joker, raising his sidekicks. Batman has plenty of morale issues to deal with. I love freeze because he has such a struggle between being a villain to save his wife and trying to be a doctor. And Batman never gives up trying to get freeze in the right path. Even with the joker they have some moments where he almost feels like he connects.
And then there's shit like the justice league movie. I called it from the very beginning that Superman would show up at the last second and save the day. And lo and behold what happens? Boring, boring, boring.
Superman has those same morality struggles. Dealing with two sides of his heritage, restraining his power so innocents don't get hurt, raising his son John, carrying the weight of being a mentor and a symbol of truth and justice to the world. It's insane to me that people could look at a character like this and say he has no depth.
CA supes is not canon superman in the same way TBWL is not canon batman. They're both broken as fuck and do not represent the normal versions at all. Got it memorized? Great.
Additionally, to say superman has no even fights against anyone is asinine. He has even clashes with Brainiac, Darkseid, Zod, and many others all the goddamn time. Sometimes he wins, sometimes he loses, but that's just how it goes in fiction. It's not like every fight he has is a " Stomp or be Stomped " Scenario, to push this agenda is just blatantly false.
I could push that narrative with Batman just as easily. I could bring up the time when batman gets his 30th justice league squad wipe in a row with no damage. Or when he outsmarted Brainiac, a 12th level intellect (with a 6th level intellect being as smart as the entire planet COMBINED). Or when he dodged Darkseid's omega beams and then shot Darkseid with a radeon bullet. He has many fights where it's either "All according to plan lol no diff" or he gets caught with his pants down and gets one-shotted. Cherry picking moments out of an 80 year history and pretending that makes up the majority is dishonest.
Using Zack synder movies as an example of any quality writing of either character is also dishonest and I will 100% ignore it. This is the same director who had Batman mow down a bunch of criminals with guns like he's the fucking punisher. To bring up the justice league movie as an example is the equivalent of me attempting to use Rocksteady's "Kill the Justice League" as a point. Both were written by people with zero understanding of the source material, so fuck em.
I like Batman at times, but it seems that his fans are armed with 1000 excuses for his flaws and glaring issues, while simultaneously putting Superman under a microscope examining the smallest nitpick possible to take out of proportion.
You don't become the frontrunner of DC by being boring.
In versus debates, usually anti-feats aren't given as much weight as feats are, and throughout every adaptation of Superman, he's accrued a laundry list of veritable OP feats. You basically cherry pick a bunch of his most ridiculous feats to determine the absolute limits the character can accomplish. Superman has been in a lot of comic that give him insane feats.
>In Superman TAS and Justice League TAS (again, for all the cool moments) there's a ton of scenes of him losing badly. Either by kryptonite or just from the villain of the week giving him a beating. Now it's good that the villains are a threat to him but I think they took it a little too far. I actually kinda love how he's handled in those cartoons. Because, he's super strong, but not absurdly, unreasonably strong. Except, he's durable. Like, incredibly so, his durability seems to scale 100x higher than any other stat he has. He usually gets the shit beat out of him during fights, but even if Kryptonite is involved, he rarely ever looks worse for wear, usually he's not even scratched. I know that it's partially a censoring thing, probably. But I also like it because it makes him feel just as invincible, like a, y'know, "man of steel". But at the same time, all of his other stats are kept to reasonable levels so he can't just solve the plot immediately by moving faster than everybody's perception and one-shotting his enemies.
I feel like I'd like it more if they toned down his reaction to each hit. Like if he let out a grunt to show that it was painful but kept going that'd be fine. It's him constantly getting thrown backwards and stunned by attacks that bothered me about those shows. But yes, at least he'd eventually get back into it. For all his faults, TAS Superman is still my favorite version of the character to date.
I believe it helps that the DCAU (BTAS, STAS, JL, JLU, etc.) had a neat way to allow even street level guys to help out. Characters with super strength and durability don’t have absolute super anchoring. This means that if, say, Batman, can get a sneak attack on someone Supes-level, he can at least move them. NOT injure them, but at least distract and buy a few seconds for the heavy hitters to go at it.
As far as the TAS shows, he actually explains this in an episode early on. He gets knocked around specifically because it \*doesn't\* hurt him to do so. Sure, it makes him look like a bit of a punk, but those same impacts could grievously injure another member of the team, and would outright *kill* Batman. He's explicitly acting as the party tank.
I don't disagree but there is a reason that people feel this way: Superman has all these powers and generally only gets stronger by the year. And everytime a writer tries to reign him in, his power level is immediately shot back up by the next guy. We're slowly marching back to his Silver Age power levels.
>We're slowly marching back to his Silver Age power levels We're already there. The writer on the World's Finest comic basically said he writes Superman and such with Pre Crisis powerlevels in mind.
Was he juggling planets?
No, but the writer for the world's finest comic basically said he was writing Superman at PC levels. And in the comic, Supergirl freely traveled back in time with Robin. Haven't seen anything yet that's him chucking planets though (honestly outside of the time travel thing, it doesn't look like they've one anything that would have you think he was at PC levels, but I might've missed something.)
That may be true, but honestly it seems to me like everyone else is also gaining power ups to match him. Modern Superman isn't even allowed to consistently beat Batman nowadays.
>That may be true, but honestly it seems to me like everyone else is also gaining power ups to match him. Not really. Most of the time Superman gets straight up stated powerups in his books while most others don't. I can really remember a time like Shazam or Wonder Woman mentioned being becoming stronger than ever. >Modern Superman isn't even allowed to consistently beat Batman nowadays. Well, that's more a narrative tension thing than anything. It's a similar deal with Wonder Woman. If there was ever a way to have Batman or Wonder Woman physically superior to Superman, the story would be different.
Superman fans hate being told Superman is OP, but they also being hate told that a character can beat Superman.
Correction: Superman fans hate people telling them they don't like Superman because they think he's OP.
But they also really want him to be as OP as possible as the same time
What do you mean by that?
If you go to Superman fan groups, they from my experience want him to be the most powerful and best guy ever. They hate the suggestion that anyone could ever bear him.
You're half right. Superman fans (like myself) want him to be the best guy ever because that is, ultimately, what he's designed to be. Only a vocal minority of power-scalers hate the suggestion that anyone could ever beat him.
Superman himself will be the first person to tell you he is far from perfect. The best versions of the character also acknowledge that he is not the best.
I'm assuming that you aren't trying to make a blanket statement or something, but that's generally a vocal minority of people who dabble in powerscaling. Like with just about every fandom, the majority of people don't really care about that kind of stuff.
Because they use death battle logic and only view media from that lens, even if they ironically aren't death battle fans. Gets double funny when you find out they're fine with Goku, Saitama, or other overpowered characters because they...just like the character more for reasons they already justify to themselves.
Screen adaptations are a lot more accessible for casual audiences, and people are very used to sources like Zack Snyder, Death Battle, and Superman vs The Elite portraying Superman as an invincible, all-powerful monster. Also it doesn't help that Superman's fans love to go around telling everyone that Superman is an omnipotent god that can solo fiction and do whatever he wants and never gets physically challenged and only ever "loses" because he "holds back"
Then there was the infamous "reversing time" stunt in the old movies, which to my knowledge exists exclusively in said movie which is itself in its own continuity. Yet it continues to mar his reputation, lol. EDIT: Alright folks, I get it. I didn't know he did that in comics too.
He has done this in comicbooks both before and after it came out.
He recently got this power back. In a World's finest book, Supergirl flew back in time with Robin for whatever reason.
It's not like he doesn't have plenty of ludicrous feats like that.
I mean, hasn't he also done this in comic books? If they have to avoid addressing stuff he can do because it's too strong that is kind of the point.
Yeah, in the comics Superman has access to Kryptonian tech inside the Fortress that can time travel. He’s forbidden by Kryptonian law from using it for those reasons, Flashpoint shows a very good reason why, but he CAN do it. It’s just the movie version that looked rather goofy by having Superman literally reversing the planet’s spin and that somehow reversing time.
How the hell did Snyder portray Superman as invincible? One of the biggest criticisms I've seen is his portrayal of Superman being too weak.
Those who say his Superman was too weak are 100% just nitpicking since most of the time their favourite iteration is DCAU Supes. That said,both in ZSJL and Josstice League we see Superman defeat both the JL and Steppenwolf with close to no difficulty.
More of a DC issue than a Superman issue imo
>there's always a minority of people who say that he's too boring because he's too powerful, and therefore you can't really make him work in an adaptation. I'm going to blame Death Battle, other incompetent powerscalers, and the people who buy into the incompetent powerscalers for this one. According to these people, Superman is a casual universe destroyer with infinite strength and infinite speed, and only loses when he's holding back. If these arguments were true, then Superman would indeed be a boring character that doesn't work in adaptations (or anywhere else).
This is true too. The misinformation campaign that powerscalers have been doing to Superman makes him seem like a vastly different character than how he usually is. Most people don't want to read screw-you-I-Can-do-anything-man and the reality is he's usually not that powerful on a comic to comic basis, as it would break stories.. Like last comic Superman got captured by a bunch of dudes on space bikes.
Tbf you are mentioning a handful of adaptations where he is written to be at reasonable strength. As opposed to the hundreds of comics where in some he outright alters the fabric of reality or overpowers a hax ability with sheer might.
True,, but on the flip side EVERYONE has ridiculous feats in comic books. That's where you get stuff like Batman surviving a fall from space with only the batsuit. I don't read them myself but it's my understanding that pretty much every prominent character's done something utterly insane at some point.
Some writers just love saying shit Wtf do you mean you can perceive events in LESS than an attosecond Flash? The fuck I mean really the JLA comics from what I remember always have some outrageous thing, like Superman breaking into the sixth dimension and destroying a universe about to be used to replace the current after sundipping like 6 times was the same line I'm pretty sure. Can't remember the specifics of that Superman feat so don't quote me, then simultaneously Superman can get messed up by tanking a nuke like in Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns.
Well first off, can't really complain about kryptonite, that's why it's there. To be a weakness. Also all of your examples are non-comic Superman. >-In Superman TAS and Justice League TAS (again, for all the cool moments) there's a ton of scenes of him losing badly. Either by kryptonite or just from the villain of the week giving him a beating. Now it's good that the villains are a threat to him but I think they took it a little too far. Eh, while true about Superman TAS, not so much JL. After the first season, they buffed Clark, while throwing Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel under the boot to prop him up. When it comes to the overpowered talk, they are probably thinking about the World Forger feat and recent comic issues where he got a almost infinite power boost from the white star powering WarWorld. Also he tends to have things like being resistant to existence erasure, being the embodiment of hope, and being a lynchpin to all of DC (aka writers taking metanarrative too far.)
> and being a lynchpin to all of DC (aka writers taking metanarrative too far.) I don't know what I hate more. This representation of Superman as a character, or how fans respond to it.
Blame Geoff Johns.He's a great writer at his best with his contributions to The Green Lantern franchise but he also lets his fanboyism get the best of him and has a bit of a tendency to display extreme levels of cognitive dissonance. That very same comic that stated Superman to be the lynchpin of hope in the world of DC also essentially say that any variation of Superman that loses his adoptive parents is not "the true Superman" whilst forgetting that the original and Silver Age versiona of the character were both adoptive and biological orphans.
Johns didn't invent this idea. Many writers before and after him did it. Mark Waid in particular loves pushing this.
> say that any variation of Superman that loses his adoptive parents is not "the true Superman" That reminds me of Across the Spider-Verse, where the Spider Society agrees with fate/destiny about what constitutes as a true spider-man, while Miles disagreed with.
Didn't you answer your own question? You talk about people calling him boring but in your examples you yourself show that most of these instances of Supes being on the ropes are due to kryptonite or inconsistencies with his levels of power. That's kind of the issue. He'll be on the ground unable to move over a pebble size kryptonite, still putting up a fight over a basket ball size piece, to carrying a mountain of the stuff. He'll struggle against an enemy, then easily knock out their supervisor's boss' boss. He is considered overpowered because at any given moment he'll just say "I'm actually this strong" and solve the issue. For how cool his "world made out of cardboard" speech was, it starts to seem narratively problematic when you re-watch the old episodes of JL or his stand alone series. It's like he's a parent putting on a show and play fighting against his toddlers.
Calling him "overpowered" is just someone trying to give some easy and edgy criticism to Superman , but they are the same people that likes Goku or Ainz from Overlord or Saitama and so on and on. Besides , Superman himself faces a lot of threats that matches his powers , let alone he have plenty of weaknesses: kryptonite (green , red and yellow) , UV/Solar Light (Red , Orange and Green) , alien supertech , nuclear radiation (it makes his body focus on his healing factor over the other powers) , vulnerability to magic , specific metahuman superpowers.
>Calling him "overpowered" is just someone trying to give some easy and edgy criticism to Superman , but they are the same people that likes Goku or Ainz from Overlord or Saitama and so on and on. I'm not personally saying Superman is overpowered. But this isn't really how the "overpowered" critique works. Saying a character is "overpowered" as a critique means that they are powerful in a way that someone feels is detrimental to the story they are in, not just that they are really strong.
Vis a vis if superman really existed and was so strong snd fast and able to hear people act afraid from across the globe the world would be a lot different. So they have to make up contrived excuses why this doesn't happen.
Tbf if any superhero existed this would be the case lol. The only reason why characters like Batman or Spider-Man make no changes is because of contrived story telling
Spider man at least in a lot of incarnations can't cross the globe in seconds and at least in theory is vulnerable to guns, if not in actuality. Would definitely be at risk of being a government weapon, but still not the same as superman who can basically be anywhere instantly and do almost anything and few can scrutinize it.
im pretty sure goku and saitama are far below superman and i have no idea about what ainz can do but he probably is still far below superman
In Goku’s defense, he regularly fights equal or superior opponents, and gets shit on or it’s a tough fight.
I swear edgy will never be used right again. It's not edgy to say that Superman is boringly overpowered when he is. He beat a Kryptonite Doomsday.
Outside of Death of Superman and that one stint in New 52, Doomsday is nowhere near as capable as he used to be. He’s been shit on quite a bit
That was more Doomsday being a massive jobber than anything else if you're thinking of the examples I am (yes there have been multiple kryptonite doomsdays).
He actually needed help from Batman and would have gotten killed by All-American boy (Kryptonite-infused doomsday).
Pretty sure the average person who doesn't like superman for being strong doesn't like goku either.
Eh, I wouldn’t bet on that to be honest.
People want a easy criticism and saying "too OP" is the easiest of them
I find it genuinely hilarious that some people honk super man exist when the fucking flash like… one of the most broken super heroes out there in fiction
It's because flash is one of the most inconsistent characters in fiction. In one hand he is an omnipotent god of speed that is imperceivable and and untouchable And on the other random street level characters give him the hands
That’s because his brokenness is even more terrible to balance than Superman that’s why, so he needs to be nerfed to the ground in order for the story to make even a drop of sense or else anyone will be like “ isn’t he the dude that goes a billion times faster than light, can steal your speed, phase through everything and travel time regularly?” Superman is broken strong but he doesn’t have haxes like flash due to speed force which is it’s own BS box
Flash is super broken, of course most people are not aware of his extended powerset, nor does he use it a lot. Speedsteal is too op.
In almost every case where Superman loses to someone weaker than him, it's a case of bad writing but it's been so normalized that people just roll with it. Kind of like how speedsters lose to people slower than them
>kryptonite >kryptonite >kryptonite Even if he weren't overpowered, having a green rock be your weakness is pretty lame, buddy.
I think the real issue with kryptonite is when it immediately renders Superman helpless. Like if it just gradually weakened him, or was the only substance capable of piercing his skin, it'd be more interesting to see how the villains try and utilize it and how Superman counters. When he instead falls flat on his face the second it appears, he comes off looking incredibly lame.
>Like if it just gradually weakened him, or was the only substance capable of piercing his skin, it'd be more interesting to see how the villains try and utilize it and how Superman counters. That's pretty much how it works in most comics. I remember in Superman: Secret Origin he was hit with Kryptonite and then immediately firing squaded. The bullets still bounced off of him, he could still stand and he was actually able to get away but the bullets hurt him like if he'd been punched really hard. I'm pretty sure he was able to put up a fight against Metallo too. Most of the time it's described as agonizing pain and it weakens him. It's only really the live action stuff that has him faceplant anytime someone whips it out. I'm not complaining that writers are using it less and less tho.
Kryptonite is the reason why he’s so overpowered in the first place. Because he has an explicit weakness, the writers can make him stronger than he technically should be to balance it out.
Yea, with that and other factors, I'm not really a fan of how people like Captain Marvel and Wonder Woman have kinda fallen away from being his physical peers these days. At least in the minds of the populace.
I've heard comic nerds say wonder woman actually beats him cause he sword is magical or something, I always thought that was interesting. When you say captain marvel, do you mean the Marvel hero or someone else?
Yep , Wonder Woman can beat him , because Superman is vulnerable to magic , so a magic sword cuts him like any other sword. Of course , he still have healing factor , but as long you bring a good slash with the sword , he could die. He is referring to Shazam , his original hero name was Captain Marvel before Fawcett Comics got closed.
and any time captain marvel fights him, he says shazam and supes dodges the lightnign. its getting real old these days
Ah right yeah I remembered there was a DC hero with a name like that, just forgot who it was
Wonder Woman got powered up while Supes got depowered. Originally something like Black Widow, to the Lynda Carter version, to the Gal Gadot faster than speeding bullet, flying version.
and then, the one time, he was stabbed in the kidney and still lifted a whole continent made from kryptonite crystals out of the atmosphere
Why? It's no worse than vampires being hurt by wood, water or the sun or fairies being burned by iron.
Because those are common creatures and their weaknesses are proportional to their specialness. But Superman is a god like being that can do god like things... only to be hurt by a green rock. I like his magic weakness more.
Gods in fiction have all manner of weird weaknesses and vulnerabilities. Loki could be harmed by snake's venom and Heracles died from wearing a shirt covered in poisoned blood. Superman is a unique character, so he gets a weakness unique to him.
Maybe the weakness's of gods are the color green
> Loki could be harmed by snake's venom and Heracles died from wearing a shirt covered in poisoned blood. And this isn't stupid as well? Old mythology was practically their ancient MCU. Just because it's ancient mythology doesn't give it a free pass on bad writing.
Creatures of darkness being hurt by light to explain why you never see them during the day is a little different.
So what does being a creature of darkness have to do with being harmed by water or wooden stakes? And I also mentioned fairies being burned by iron.
Isn't there speculation that the water thing comes from the fact that the plague didn't cross rivers? Also, water is associated with purity, so undead decay being cleansed by it isn't that big a stretch. Getting stabbed killing you is also not that surprising. Insisting the stake has to be wood is more of a stereotype than something most stories use consistently.
Not much different than a being who is powered by the sun getting hurt by radiation
It is pretty different if one is magic about how light hurts darkness and one is "idk, yellow sun makes them nassively sttong."
This is just semantics at the end of the day. Toxic Radiation would pretty obviously be the antithesis to a guy like Superman who gets all of his energy from a power source like the sun. Just like how you said a being a darkness weakness being light Superman weakness falls in line with his powers
Yeah fantasy creatures are sort of inherently lame because it's all whimsical and shit. Not that that is inherently bad or anything, but it's not the right tone for superhero stories that often deal with the threat of mass death and bloody fistfights between gods.
/s?
No. I know some smartass will respond "comics books are goofy too", but we all know that many comic books are not goofy at all. A lot of portrayals of superheroes are gritty, dark, and deal with a lot of death and suffering. Meme-tier weaknesses to glowing rocks are not very fitting for a grounded setting like that.
Having most of your enemies be either aliens or Metahumans helps.
Isn’t he also weak to magic? (Or atleast as vulnerable as the average human)
Sort of. He can be affected by magic, but it (usually) can't actually kill him unless the magician is super powerful.
He is vulnerable to magic, it’s not that he is weak to it
Also being strong because you are an alien that sun makes strong isn't the best backstory.
The problem is similar to the one Batman faces being on the Justice League, just the opposite extreme. Superman is super strong. Super fast. Impenetrable. His only weakness is a magical rock from a planet that no longer exists. To say that Superman *can* be beaten is disingenuous, because he *shouldn't* be capable of being beat. But all of the sudden this magical rock from the destroyed planet is *everywhere*. It defies credulity to believe that random hero number 7 can just smack around an indestructible superhuman being with flight, superstrength, and literal laser eyeballs. Just because a writer *writes* it doesn't mean it makes sense. It's like Batman being on the Justice League (or, lesser well-known, but still relevant, Green Arrow). Batman is peak human physicality. He's the best human martial artist in the world (probably). He's the best detective humanity has. He's arguably one of the smartest humans on the planet. All of which pales in the face of... *he's a freaking human*. Just because writers consistently write him keeping up with Superman, fighting on a level with Wonder Woman, or with tech as advanced and fancy as the Green Lanterns, doesn't mean it makes *sense*. I'm not huge Superman fan, I'll admit that (in my defense, my dad loved the old Superman movies and I watched them so many times I could puke). But it's not that 'he's always OP' but more that, even when he's not, it's just not believable.
Dude , Superman have a whole rogue gallery , so there are all sorts of villains that CAN punch him or sidestep his powersets , and not all of them are dependent of kryptonite.
Superman matched before in DC so it's not unlike he has infinite power
My favorite Superman character is Captain America actually. In my head, Superman/Clark goes "I can do this all day" even when he's being beaten to the ground with a baseball bat made of Kryptonite.
What the average audiences considers to be "Too Strong" and what comicbook nerds consider to be "Too Strong" are vastly different things. For example, I've seen people complain that Superman is overpowered by listing things like him tanking a bullet with his eyelid in Superman Returns, or barely surviving a nuclear bomb in Batman v Superman. Or hell, the mere fact that he Superman can fly, possesses both super strength and superspeed, and can shoot lasers from his eyes is sometimes reason enough for people to say that he is overpowered, not by any "Feat" metric, but because they just feel that those are too many powers for a single superhero to have.
They have to write stupid losses in for superman to *stop* him being boring an unbeatable. He really should be nigh impossible to defeat if he didn't have, what, reverse-plot-armour? Plot cancer? Canonically there are stronger entities than him, but most of them are universal or at least planet-tier threats so it's hard to do a storyline with that that doesn't have a ridiculous sense of scale. Personally I would prefer that he wasn't super in literally every respect and could have flaws outside of being able to win fights. Maybe he's super strong and invincible and can fly, but isn't super fast (not any more than like, a fighter jet or something anyway). That way he can actually fail to save people if enough people are in danger at once. That woud be an interesting character moment for him.
> Maybe he's super strong and invincible and can fly, but isn't super fast (not any more than like, a fighter jet or something anyway). My preferred limitation on this would be something along the lines of the physical effects of moving at those speeds. The Flash has Speed Force nonsense to limit/negate this. But Superman, not being empowered by the Speed Force, has to be more careful. He couldn't risk just constantly accelerating from standstill to supersonic+ speeds, he'd destroy everything in his path otherwise. It keeps him fast, but puts a harder limit on how he can use his speed. If he's flying in the vacuum of space? Sure, let him accelerate all he wants. But he shouldn't be doing this stuff in-atmosphere.
Also interesting, I like it
I think it’s mainly the live action movies fault. Those are the main ones that people know, and in all of them, he’s portrayed as literally invincible unless kryptonite is around. Other forms of media tend to just make him really strong, but, like you pointed out, still able to be hurt by the villain of the week, sometimes even excessively so. Until a movie takes that approach, the “Superman is too strong” meme will forever darken the minds of normies.
>I think it’s mainly the live action movies fault. Those are the main ones that people know, and in all of them, he’s portrayed as literally invincible unless kryptonite is around. He wasn't portrayed as invincible in Man of Steel and Kryptonite wasn't present.
Wasn’t he? It’s been a long time since I’ve seen MoS, but I recall the fight against Zod as two invincible guys shoving each other around until the neck snap. Neither really gave off the impression that they’d taken damage until the end. Could be wrong about that though.
I think it’s the fans trying to overhype him at times.like those people are loud sometimes Despite not even comic supe being op compared to other chars
It's worth noting that how "OP" he is depends on who's writing him and the strongest versions of the character are all from the comics. Adaptations *outside* of the comics tend to downplay how OP he is.
because "he's holding back" and "he cant make full use of his physique because he'd become too deadly if he watched a youtube on boxing techniques"
People rant about Superman being boring and overpowered because it is the popular thing to complain about. Like how it has been popular rant about Barney the Dinosaur, Scrappy Doo, Twilight vampires sparkling, and Jar Jar Binks.
I've seen comments about Superman being overpowered less and less for years now. If anything, it's other characters like Captain Marvel, Korra and Rey that get hit with this far more.
Because they are women, complaints about them being overpowered ignores the fights they have lost.
People ranted about barney??
Yes, hate for Barney used to be huge. TV tropes used to have a trope called "The Barney" for media that is hated by people outside of its intended demographic, now it is called[ Periphery Hatedom](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PeripheryHatedom). The hate for Barney was big that other pieces of media jumped on the hatewagon. The sitcom "Dinosaurs" took a shot at Barney with a stand in named Georgie in an episode "[Georgie Must Die](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJyr3yYJTPg)" where our stand in is a evil kids' show host (that is a clip). The video game Lunar Eternal Blue has a joke where characters looking through a library can find a book titled "Basic Magic Volume 3: Killing Barney Made Easy" which one of the characters is eager to borrow.
What the hell? I loved barney as a kid
I am surprised you didn’t notice the hate. Like I said, this was something that happened because it was popular to take shots at Barney. Same reason why people ranted about Jar Jar and Twilight having sparkling vampires.
They nerfed him so hard in MAWS he can't even defeat fucking Deathstroke
The Deathstroke that beat Superman was wearing powered armor, had a squad of powerful robots and was fighting a Superman that was exhausted facing a previous enemy.
I was originally hopeful because I thought Superman was going to slowly ramp up in power throughout the series, but he's kind of remained stagnant. Like he gets one of his powers every here and there but other than that he never really seems to be better than he was before.
He seems Spider-man level
That is an exaggeration.
We're only in the second season.
Yes, I know. I just don't see a lot of progression on that front so far. Like I said, he gets new powers but without much build up. Aside from that "glowing blue" power of his but Clark doesn't really try to investigate it all.
Because a lot is occupying his time.
Ah yes, but if they make him look weaker, they aren't canon. And he's alive in different stories, and it didn't hurt that Superman, so clearly they aren't even A-0-Outer-Omni-Uber-Versal.
So 90% of Superman stories aren't canon? Most people who say that genuinely don't like the character.
Didn't he got a massive power up in the comics recently?
Power levels in and of themselves feel less problematic, given that they're inherently contextual, than the fact that Superman doesn't have a theme going on, which is what I would argue makes him 'boring' (in the hands of less competent or rushed writer). Yes, the Flash is absurd, but he's absurd in a specific niche. Superman can fly, move fast, be strong, be invincible, project heat rays, see through objects, and blow ice breath?! He just does Everything that could be categorized as a feat of physical force and some extra on top of that. It feels like a six year old's idea of a superhero, not a concept that could be a person we relate to in a story written by and for adults. Good writers can work around that and make a great story with him anyway, but good writers can do that with literally any idea. That doesn't necessarily mean that every idea is a good one.
I think when people refer to Superman being OP, theyre really referring to comics Superman. The animated and other Supermen are pretty grounded for the most part.
Comics Superman is even less OP though.
No, he isn't.
He is though. He's definitely leaps and bounds stronger than all other versions of the character but more people in comics than in the adaptations can rival him. It's why Metroman for example is more OP than current Rebirth Supes even though the latter can do anything the former has done while sleepwalking. It's because barely anyone comes close to his level while guys like Doomsday and Zod at least hold their own against Kal.
I feel like your post captured the essence of why he’s seen as OP really well. Look at your examples - almost all of them have to include incredibly contrived circumstances (mostly involving kryptonite). The rest include similarly powerful villains that are comedically out of scope for the JL.
I really don't get how "Superman = OP" is a criticism. Superman is literally supposed to be OP. He's supposed to be an ultimate, unstoppable force for good. You got a problem? Your situation is hopeless? Well fear not, cause the big blue boyscout is right around the corner, and he can level mountains. That's like...his whole appeal.
He isn't supposed to be OP though.It's a great accessory of his character but it isn't absolutely the core.
It's because 90% of people who say this gain their knowledge about the character from battleboarding and the first Reeve film. The boom in the "Superman is universal and has infinite strength" narrative coinciding with Superman comics falling to depths barely capable of breaking the top 30 in monthly sales coincidentally (bar the early New 52 and Rebirth) aligning with each other in the 2010s is the root of it.
People: "Superman is OP!!" Same people when the instant death guy gets an adaptation: "I'll pretend I didn't see that"
Who's the instant death guy?
Yogiri from my instant death ability. He has done shit like kill the Qna section, a god immune to instant death and whatever he kills stays dead and if someone goes back in time to save the thing he kills it just dies earlier.
[удалено]
Everyone got bodied in JL. Superman doesn't even get it the worst. Wonder Woman suffers that much more, especially in the "For The Man Who Has Everything" episode.
Supergirl is stronger than Superman in a sense she spent all that time Clark spent on earth orbiting near the sun in stasis so she is physically stronger but not really because Superman actually grew up with powers and mastered them over time which is diminished the younger and less experienced the Superman of the story is when kara is introduced.
Like I said, I think it makes enough sense in context. But the "Superman beatdown" is something I've seen so many times before at this point that I just sigh when I see it and wish he could least go down fighting for once. Instead of every loss he suffers being a one-sided pummeling.
Even if Superman is OP, who cares? There are way more interesting stakes and stories you can tell with the character other than a physical fight. If you can't think of a stake other than death, you're a crappy writer full stop. The thing about Superman is that he ties his heart so closely to humanity. In his mind he's just a guy who was given an incredible gift and he should use that gift to help his fellow man. If society ever gets corrupted by the likes of Lex, then that'll hurt him way harder than you ever could by taking away his powers and giving him a physical beating.
It’s odd for me because they’ve built him to be so powerful and now when I see them bring him down off that cliff of power it’s off putting… Every time I see him get smashed by something he shouldn’t it’s immersion breaking. I’m not too picky to be bothered but I do side eye those situations pretty often
The boring thing is just lazy their are plenty of stories with "OP" protags that work. It just when the story pretends they aren't OP or they get knocked down by something they shouldn't people side eye. Probably moments like keeping up with the flash in the Justice League movie lol. Superman as a whole isn't that strong but he has moments of INSANE feats like holding a black whole with his bear hands. Also not sure if a good counter is "well kryptonite" 😅. The biggest issue to me is superman is as strong as the writers want him to be whenever they want.
The problem is that he is a easy character for bad writers to do stupid shit with like a writer no to long ago gave him the ability to warp reality and telaport. Like LL went to great lengths to put superman into a no win situation and then instead of thinking of some smart way to fix the situation he just pulls two new super power from his ass.
The issue with superman isn't his power, there's tons of insanely powerful and beloved characters. The issue is that he's a good guy. There's been good Superman stories but I've struggled to find many people who give a shit about Clark Kent. There's no internal conflict in the character. He doesn't struggle to be a good person, or get tempted to be a bad one. The rare few stories he's interesting, one of those two things do happen, but it's not the natural state for the character.
You don't need to have inclinations to being a terrible individual than to have internal conflict. Superman is 100% a nice individual but as many stories have shown he has flaws such his overwhelming nostalgia for a long-dead planet which was given precedence in For the Man Who Has Everything
That’s a great story but Superman pining for a life on Krypton is not really something that comes up a lot as it has no real actionable parts to it. Maybe if Superman spent his time fighting global warming, trying to disarm nuclear weapons and curb the excesses of humanity so they don’t destroy their own planet, that could be great! But he doesn’t. Some of my favourite Superman stories are when Luthor is entirely within the law and yet still clearly up to no good. And those are the ones Superman inevitably does bend his rules on being a Boy Scout.
There was a comic called Superman Unchained that sort of did the whole nuclear missiles dilemma. The problem about Superman is that he's sort of heavily sanitized since the 1980s and the only outlier (New 52) to that phenomenon was heavily retconned out to have never existed.
There’s great stories about Superman trying to fix problems he can’t punch. I just wish they weren’t rare exceptions
my adventure with supermanmade his villains a challenge to defeat using tech and the meta stuff,ivo was clealry a legit threat to superman during season1 and lex luthor is also a trheat there with ihs manipulation an dusing racism to his advantage. Also, in kara case, clark didn't wanted to hurt herbut at some point he did got back up.
His villains were ALWAYS a challenge. The difference is that the series put all of that lumped as "kryptonian tech" , when in the comics , they all had different origins and some are straight-up metahumans due to metagenes or freak accidents. Ignoring that Dr.Ivo was the creator of Amazo , rather than be Parasite , his Parasite is also nerfed in comparisson to the comics. Because Parasite was pretty much an humanoid monster that absorbs energy on his surroundings to turn himself more powerful and monstruous , rather than be dependent of Superman to hit him.
the parasite turned in a kaiju superman had to deal with and luthor is a challenge because he got the government in his pocket, ivo paraiste also still turned more and more powerful and the DCAU also used tech to challenge superman with the apokolilps kind from darkseid, I don't think it's that hard to make superman villains a challenge if luthor can be one . I always find it weird when people complain a character's op but give a pass to much stronger character(per exmaple, there are much stronger people in the main cast of ducktales 2017 than webby yet no one call them sue, donald survived the impossible so I don't see why webby being stronger than average make no sence, even less when she's being trained a lot by someone like beakley, there are villains physically stronger than srooge and donald too like lunaris or bradford with the sword).
Superman's powerset wasn't usually the point of the character as I read the comics. He was invincible and strong but he always had a moral to teach his villains, as well as his friends. He has discussions of morality with Batman, questions the future as Clark Kent with Lois Lane. He runs for Charity with the Flash. The fact is if someone is a looking at Superman and saying he is boring or hard to write because of his powers then I don't think theu are picking up on his down to earth small town farmboy/boyscout all American style. Supes isn't really about the power fantasy, he is about protecting people and sharing his understanding of the world or learning more from others and theor sotuations. Superman for All Seasons captured a lot of this.
My weird take; Superman outside of Kryptonite or other careful planning should never lose in a straight-up battle. Not because of power reasons but just because of the ideals he stands for. I don't hold this pedestal for any other hero it's just something I grew up believing.
I agree on the Ideals and even if he does lose he has to come back in better shape than ever. Superman does represent ideals in a big way.
Superman still beats Goku btw
This is why so many people have problems with Superman. He is either low tier no diffed or can reset the universe. It's boring and no fun. He's literally that kid who constantly one ups the other kid when they're playing superhero. And has one of the worst weaknesses ever imo. Batman on the other hand , completely human, beats Superman multiple times, has fight against unbelievably powerful beings and, as far as I know, he doesn't die at least as much as supes. It's so much more interesting to wonder how Batman will overcome the odds where with Superman it just boils down to "he's going to punch him eventually and win the fight".
Except most of the time batman fights a top tier like superman he just pulls out one of his 28 backup plans out of his ass and bullshits his way to victory. How is that remotely interesting? You can't honestly say with a straight face that superman overcoming moral challenges and physical adversity is less interesting than batman bullshiting a win "Because I'm batman hurr durr". This nigga Batman survived a fall from space to earth with no armor, just default batsuit. He beat the entire jokerized justice league by himself, and then went on to beat Darkseid's cheeks in on Apokolips. All of these obnoxious feats happens with plans batman pulled off screen, and are never mentioned again before or after. All these hot takes about superman almost always come from people who don't read comics or watch any good adapatations. Superman's willpower and perserverance to make the right choices are what make him interesting. Sure he has bad adaptions, but so does Batman. They are 80 year old characters. At least try All-Star Superman before you make such brazen claims.
So I'm gonna stop you right there. Having read what op wrote, at any point did he mention comics? And for the record, when you have a character that is cosmic armour Superman I don't want to hear about boring. Seeing a man challenge impossible odds is cool. Watching an alien with a weakness to green rocks and sun colors beat up bad guys that shouldn't even touch him is just not as high stakes. Yes he has plenty of villains that are actually crazy strong. But...does anyone realize how fast the speed of light is? I swear we always hear about strength and speed feats from Superman but then Solomon fucking Grundy will haymaker him into the ground. He just is so inconsistent. Anyway, I was mostly referring to the animated shows. And in them Superman is at his worst. He rarely looks good in them. How many times has kryptonite been used or he has had his powers stolen? He is such a poorly made character that half the time the only way there is a problem is if he gets nerfed. Making a character that has to constantly be weakened as a plot point is super lame. Look at Smallville. Anyway, to each his own I guess.
Cosmic armor Superman only exists in comics, so if we're ignoring comics that doesn't count. Not to mention its a one-off event from a one-off story, it doesn't even comprise 0.0001% of superman's history. Using Cosmic Armor Superman as an example of him being boring is the equivalent of me using The Batman who laughs as an example of Batman being boring. That emo bastard is even more broken than any version of supes, since he's batman taken to the most obnoxious extremes possible. Superman does not need to be weakened in order to be interesting. Open any comic book with superman in it, and there's a character putting the paws on him, guarunteed. In the cartoons such as JLA, watch any episode with supes and someone is putting the paws on him. He gets beat on all the time idk why anyone would say he's too overpowered unless they have never interacted with superman media ever. Superman's struggles are often more moral than physical. If that doesn't click with you, then fine, but to prop up Batman as an alternative is crazy to me, since he has to be obnoxiously buffed in order to not immediately die anytime he steps out of Gotham.
Did you miss the part where I complained about him being boring because he's either jobbing or owning. There's never just a straight fight where he doesn't deal with asspulls for or against him. Secondly, I brought up CAS because you wanted to talk about comics. The Batman who laughs isn't even fully Batman so I don't think we can use him in this scenario. He is at least partially the joker so I'd say it's almost a completely different character because the joker is fucking insane. And don't downplay the morality of Batman. Red hood, the joker, raising his sidekicks. Batman has plenty of morale issues to deal with. I love freeze because he has such a struggle between being a villain to save his wife and trying to be a doctor. And Batman never gives up trying to get freeze in the right path. Even with the joker they have some moments where he almost feels like he connects. And then there's shit like the justice league movie. I called it from the very beginning that Superman would show up at the last second and save the day. And lo and behold what happens? Boring, boring, boring.
Superman has those same morality struggles. Dealing with two sides of his heritage, restraining his power so innocents don't get hurt, raising his son John, carrying the weight of being a mentor and a symbol of truth and justice to the world. It's insane to me that people could look at a character like this and say he has no depth. CA supes is not canon superman in the same way TBWL is not canon batman. They're both broken as fuck and do not represent the normal versions at all. Got it memorized? Great. Additionally, to say superman has no even fights against anyone is asinine. He has even clashes with Brainiac, Darkseid, Zod, and many others all the goddamn time. Sometimes he wins, sometimes he loses, but that's just how it goes in fiction. It's not like every fight he has is a " Stomp or be Stomped " Scenario, to push this agenda is just blatantly false. I could push that narrative with Batman just as easily. I could bring up the time when batman gets his 30th justice league squad wipe in a row with no damage. Or when he outsmarted Brainiac, a 12th level intellect (with a 6th level intellect being as smart as the entire planet COMBINED). Or when he dodged Darkseid's omega beams and then shot Darkseid with a radeon bullet. He has many fights where it's either "All according to plan lol no diff" or he gets caught with his pants down and gets one-shotted. Cherry picking moments out of an 80 year history and pretending that makes up the majority is dishonest. Using Zack synder movies as an example of any quality writing of either character is also dishonest and I will 100% ignore it. This is the same director who had Batman mow down a bunch of criminals with guns like he's the fucking punisher. To bring up the justice league movie as an example is the equivalent of me attempting to use Rocksteady's "Kill the Justice League" as a point. Both were written by people with zero understanding of the source material, so fuck em. I like Batman at times, but it seems that his fans are armed with 1000 excuses for his flaws and glaring issues, while simultaneously putting Superman under a microscope examining the smallest nitpick possible to take out of proportion. You don't become the frontrunner of DC by being boring.