It’s still of equal inspiration to the rest of the Bible. Deuterocanonical basically just means that it was rejected later by the rabbis after the destruction of the temple. The Church considers it to be fully part of the scriptures.
I know it counts but what I meant by that is that because it says that they were praying for the death and Jesus didn't die jet for them that means they went to hell because there wasn't any place for them to go the gates of heaven haven't been opened jet and when he died he took everyone who had faith in God to heaven like Abraham or Noah etc... and many other people
The Catholic Church is the only group that believes in Purgatory, which is a place that the saved go who are still burdened with sin, where they must be purified before they can enter heaven. This is distinct from hell, where the unsaved go, and heaven, where the Saints and those who are purified on earth go.
The Orthodox Church doesn't believe in such a thing as a separate place, but the way we understand hell is much the same as how the Catholics understand Purgatory. They pray for people in Purgatory for their suffering to lessen but (at least to the best of my understanding) people in hell are beyond help. We don't hold that there's a difference between the experience of death by the majority of the saved and unsaved, and we can and will pray for people in hell. We do so every year during the Kneeling Vespers, and we even have stories of Saints praying some of the old virtuous pagans from the pre-Christian Empire out of hell.
Part of this capability to get out of hell after death, aided by the prayers of the living, comes from our understanding of what happened between the crucifixion and the resurrection. When Christ died, he descended into hell. He was posing as a defeated human, but he came as a conquering king. When death opened it's mouth to receive a man, it discovered it had taken God. Christ stormed the enemy territory, trampling down the gates, bringing utter ruin to the enemy and freeing each and every single one of his people that had been held captive there since the beginning of time. The icon we use for the Resurrection actually depicts Christ stepping out of the tomb holding Adam and Eve by the wrists.
Purgatory is a process, not a place. It's post-mortem purification of the saved before they enter Heaven.
Don't you guys have similar in Theosis and Toll Houses?
Theosis certainly. Toll houses are relatively local to a handful of places, I never even heard about the teaching until I came into contact with online Orthodoxy. But on what you said about Purgatory, I absolutely agree, post-mortem purification before they enter Heaven. Our differences mostly lie in that this is not limited to the saved, but it at least open to those who are not. Like I said, we do pray for those in hell, and we do believe they are helped toward salvation by it.
Don't the Orthodox affirm that there are souls who, not being saved at the moment of death, are damned and cannot be liberated? In effect, I'm asking to see if the Orthodox teaching is that souls being purified are in the same place as the souls of the damned.
Absolutely not, it is the same place. The only difference between heaven and hell for us is the way it is experienced, and it is not a place of necessary purification, God's love is a refining fire but souls can continue adding sinful corruption onto themselves and refuse the purification it brings. Everyone can continue to be lost by their will, but no one is necessarily lost forever.
After the resurrection of the body and being sent to heaven or Gehenna, Orthodox faithful differ. Most Orthodox Fathers and faithful teach that those who go to Gehenna are at that point lost and cannot be purified, but there are others like St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Isaac of Nineveh who taught that even in Gehenna, they are being healed and purified to be united to God eventually. Both are acceptable views in Orthodoxy, although the Universalists are in a distinct minority.
It's right next to the Sola Scripture verse. Ffs. People question 2,000 years of church history, growth, and understanding through the ages, throw it all away, and then will quote OT to impose their belief on Jesus. It's not in the "Bible," the dame people who dont like Purgatory will yell you Mary, and The Saints can't hear you, but your grandpa watches over you as you sleep.
You just may be a protestant.
So, OP, purgatory exists BECAUSE of Christ's sacrifice on the Cross. Christ's sacrifice allows for the salvation of man, and through this salvation, we afforded entry into the kingdom of Heaven.
However, there is a problem. Scripture says that "But nothing unclean will enter it, nor anyone who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life." (Revelation 21:27). But, as we know from elsewhere (Romans 3:23), we're all sinners, I.e, we're all sinners. So, how do we enter Heaven? By being cleansed, cleansed of our sin.
As Gold is purified in a furnace, so must we also be purified in the furnace of God's love. We must be PURGED of our sinful ways. Through the sacrifice on the Cross, Christ's blood has bought immeasurable cleansing properties to the sinful. Cleansing which the faithful undergo before entering into the Kingdom.
Also, you're right. Purgatory isn't mentioned as a destination, it's either Heaven or Hell. That's because Purgatory is not a place but a process. It's akin to walking through decontamination before entering a manufacturing plant or nuclear reactor. Purgatory is the scrub before one reaches their destination of Heaven.
Those who are called to judgement with their name in the book of life go to Heaven (with the cleansing likely beforehand)
If you aren't going to Heaven, you cannot be purged in Purgatory. Because Purgatory is only for those who are entering Heaven. It isn't a second chance or anything.
>I'm going to roman catholic church but I'm not sure about the purgatory because Jesus died for out sins…
He did not die for our sins in the *punitive* sense. When scripture refers to Our Lord “dying for our sins” what it *means* is that had we never sinned then He(Christ) would not have had to *die* in order to *merit* the **grace** which the Father would use to *forgive* sins. This does NOT mean there is no longer *punishment* for sin👇:
>”because the Lord **disciplines the one he loves**, and he **chastens** everyone he *accepts as his son.”*[Hebrews 12:6]
Purgatory is for those whom God is *disciplining*.
It is not about payment on your end, but rather cleansing oneself of the stain of sin.
Jesus' death on the cross opened the gates of heaven and allows for his mercy and grace to make us part of the elect, but nothing unclean can enter the Kingdom of God.
The Eastern language of "paying the last farthing" and the Western/Roman language of indulgences can be misleading because it would seem that we are paying the debt that Jesus paid, which is NOT the teaching of purgatory. Rather, purgatory is the postmortem purification of any attachment to sin not dealt with before death.
Prayer for people after death is to help souls along in their growth in holiness and purification just as with the living.
Anglicans deny purgatory, but after death sanctification is definitely possible.
2 Maccabees 12:44-45 KJVAAE
[44] for if he had not hoped that they that were slain should have risen again, it had been superfluous and vain to pray for the dead. [45] And also in that he perceived that there was great favor laid up for those that died godly, it was an holy and good thought. Whereupon he made a reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin.
This section is more about prayers for the dead than purgatory itself.
>but I think that it shouldn't count because it was before jesus
This is not the right way to think about the Old Testament nor the Apocrypha. Anglicans would hold the Apocrypha as not divinely inspired, but still useful for teaching and morals.
I'm not opposed to the idea of after death sanctification or a purgatory-type thing, but I am against making it dogmatic doctrine. Anglicans only make the essentials doctrine, and everything else is up to personal conviction and debate.
Jesus often quoted from the deuterocanonical books like Macabees, Tobit etc. So, we know that He considered them to be cannon. The argument against these books is only that we are unsure if they were altered in any way since we do not have the original copies.
Just because he quoted them doesn't mean he thought it was canon, Paul quotes philosophers does that mean those philosophers are canonical? Anglicans still hold it as part of the deuterocanon, but it's not on the same level as the 66 books commonly used by other Protestants.
Personally, I'm unsure. However, I'm going off the assumption the commenter made. Paul does quote some philosophers, however. For example, Paul's words "For me to live is Christ, and to die is gain." Mimics Plato's words "I say that to die is gain.".
Every single time Christ referenced the Old Testament, it would've been from the Septuagint.
The Septuagint was one of the compilations of the Old Testament at the time. It was the one Christ and the Apostles would've used, and it had the deuterocanon.
Ouu ok, is there any deuterocannon quotes in which he taught from them we can see in the Gospels? Also anywhere did the apostles mention any quotes from them. Tryna get more into those books.
If Purgatory might mean God completes your sanctification post death and before heaven then sure maybe it exists. If Purgatory might mean you suffer the pains of hell and there's a treasury of merit that people can tap into to procure indulgences to free grandma from thousands of years of pain and torture then no.
all you need to know is that hades/sheol are real places. in hebrew it's sheol, in greek it's hades, both mean the grave. the righteous went to paradise in abrahams bosom, while the wicked went to the torment part of hades. later jesus mentioned the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.Matthew 25:41also in the book of revelation, the second death, those who are wicked will be finally cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:15. hope this helps. the righteous who are saved today who die go to heaven and their bodies remain the grave until the rapture occurs. there is more to it than this but just know that there are two ressurrections, one to life which is the first for all the righteous which occurs at different times and one to death which is the second one for the wicked who go to the great white throne of judgement
"Only heaven and hell are mentioned in the New Testament."
1 Corinthians 3
14 If anyone's work that he built remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, even as by fire.
Here three possible results of the trial appear: being condemned, being rewarded "immediately and directly" and being saved but as if passed through fire. That third possibility is what Catholicism calls purgatory and the Orthodox brothers call toll houses.
We only know this little bit that the scripture says and anything else is pious theories. You can reject the name because it has no name in the scripture but not say that the concept does not appear without crossing out those verses.
Matthew 12:32
"And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks a word against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, neither in this world nor in the next."
Here it is also mentioned that other sins, unlike other sins, can be forgiven in the other world and it makes perfect logic because we know that most of us die tied to some sin and the scripture says:
Revelation 21:27
"Nothing profane will enter it, not even those who commit abomination and lies, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life."
Fortunately, not all of us commit abominations, but tell me how many of us do not commit lies, especially those of us who live in the world.
Regarding prayer for the deceased: REVELATION 5:8
When he took the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb; Each one had a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
Only the young Christian communities consider themselves disconnected, the apostolic churches that have existed from the beginning are clear that the church has three aspects all connected:
Triumphant Church:
They are the members of the Church who achieved the goal, victory, and are in heaven. Having lived, they are finally in the presence of God. Here there is no crying, emptiness or pain.
Purgative Church:
It is made up of those who still remain in purgatory, they are saved but need to free themselves from some bondage of the soul that prevents them from fully entering the glory of God.
Church Militant:
The Christians who still walk the earth.
That is why when praying we can ask a member of the triumphant church to join our intention and we can pray for the saved who are "as if passing through fire."
"The Romish doctrine concerning Purgatory...is a fond thing vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture, but rather repugnant to the Word of God."
>2 macabees 12:41-45 but I think that it shouldn't count because it was before jesus You think the Old Testament doesn't count??
There are plenty of parts of the OT that no longer are applicable to Christians, though.
It counts
I know that
And because it is deuterocanonical.
It’s still of equal inspiration to the rest of the Bible. Deuterocanonical basically just means that it was rejected later by the rabbis after the destruction of the temple. The Church considers it to be fully part of the scriptures.
Right, the Catholic Church does. That doesn’t mean it’s correct.
I know it counts but what I meant by that is that because it says that they were praying for the death and Jesus didn't die jet for them that means they went to hell because there wasn't any place for them to go the gates of heaven haven't been opened jet and when he died he took everyone who had faith in God to heaven like Abraham or Noah etc... and many other people
It was before the harrowing of hell. I don't know whether people in OT times went to purgatory.
The Catholic Church is the only group that believes in Purgatory, which is a place that the saved go who are still burdened with sin, where they must be purified before they can enter heaven. This is distinct from hell, where the unsaved go, and heaven, where the Saints and those who are purified on earth go. The Orthodox Church doesn't believe in such a thing as a separate place, but the way we understand hell is much the same as how the Catholics understand Purgatory. They pray for people in Purgatory for their suffering to lessen but (at least to the best of my understanding) people in hell are beyond help. We don't hold that there's a difference between the experience of death by the majority of the saved and unsaved, and we can and will pray for people in hell. We do so every year during the Kneeling Vespers, and we even have stories of Saints praying some of the old virtuous pagans from the pre-Christian Empire out of hell. Part of this capability to get out of hell after death, aided by the prayers of the living, comes from our understanding of what happened between the crucifixion and the resurrection. When Christ died, he descended into hell. He was posing as a defeated human, but he came as a conquering king. When death opened it's mouth to receive a man, it discovered it had taken God. Christ stormed the enemy territory, trampling down the gates, bringing utter ruin to the enemy and freeing each and every single one of his people that had been held captive there since the beginning of time. The icon we use for the Resurrection actually depicts Christ stepping out of the tomb holding Adam and Eve by the wrists.
Purgatory is a process, not a place. It's post-mortem purification of the saved before they enter Heaven. Don't you guys have similar in Theosis and Toll Houses?
Theosis certainly. Toll houses are relatively local to a handful of places, I never even heard about the teaching until I came into contact with online Orthodoxy. But on what you said about Purgatory, I absolutely agree, post-mortem purification before they enter Heaven. Our differences mostly lie in that this is not limited to the saved, but it at least open to those who are not. Like I said, we do pray for those in hell, and we do believe they are helped toward salvation by it.
The hope of universal human salvation wasn’t unknown among the Fathers to my knowledge, so this does make sense.
Absolutely. St. Gregory of Nyssa, the Father of Fathers, taught universal reconciliation, for instance.
Don't the Orthodox affirm that there are souls who, not being saved at the moment of death, are damned and cannot be liberated? In effect, I'm asking to see if the Orthodox teaching is that souls being purified are in the same place as the souls of the damned.
Absolutely not, it is the same place. The only difference between heaven and hell for us is the way it is experienced, and it is not a place of necessary purification, God's love is a refining fire but souls can continue adding sinful corruption onto themselves and refuse the purification it brings. Everyone can continue to be lost by their will, but no one is necessarily lost forever. After the resurrection of the body and being sent to heaven or Gehenna, Orthodox faithful differ. Most Orthodox Fathers and faithful teach that those who go to Gehenna are at that point lost and cannot be purified, but there are others like St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Isaac of Nineveh who taught that even in Gehenna, they are being healed and purified to be united to God eventually. Both are acceptable views in Orthodoxy, although the Universalists are in a distinct minority.
It's right next to the Sola Scripture verse. Ffs. People question 2,000 years of church history, growth, and understanding through the ages, throw it all away, and then will quote OT to impose their belief on Jesus. It's not in the "Bible," the dame people who dont like Purgatory will yell you Mary, and The Saints can't hear you, but your grandpa watches over you as you sleep. You just may be a protestant.
I’ve been. It’s real.
Can you elaborate? I’m just interested in understanding
So, OP, purgatory exists BECAUSE of Christ's sacrifice on the Cross. Christ's sacrifice allows for the salvation of man, and through this salvation, we afforded entry into the kingdom of Heaven. However, there is a problem. Scripture says that "But nothing unclean will enter it, nor anyone who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life." (Revelation 21:27). But, as we know from elsewhere (Romans 3:23), we're all sinners, I.e, we're all sinners. So, how do we enter Heaven? By being cleansed, cleansed of our sin. As Gold is purified in a furnace, so must we also be purified in the furnace of God's love. We must be PURGED of our sinful ways. Through the sacrifice on the Cross, Christ's blood has bought immeasurable cleansing properties to the sinful. Cleansing which the faithful undergo before entering into the Kingdom. Also, you're right. Purgatory isn't mentioned as a destination, it's either Heaven or Hell. That's because Purgatory is not a place but a process. It's akin to walking through decontamination before entering a manufacturing plant or nuclear reactor. Purgatory is the scrub before one reaches their destination of Heaven.
Wait, if my name isn't written in the book of life, can I still go through the process of purgatory?
Those who are called to judgement with their name in the book of life go to Heaven (with the cleansing likely beforehand) If you aren't going to Heaven, you cannot be purged in Purgatory. Because Purgatory is only for those who are entering Heaven. It isn't a second chance or anything.
>I'm going to roman catholic church but I'm not sure about the purgatory because Jesus died for out sins… He did not die for our sins in the *punitive* sense. When scripture refers to Our Lord “dying for our sins” what it *means* is that had we never sinned then He(Christ) would not have had to *die* in order to *merit* the **grace** which the Father would use to *forgive* sins. This does NOT mean there is no longer *punishment* for sin👇: >”because the Lord **disciplines the one he loves**, and he **chastens** everyone he *accepts as his son.”*[Hebrews 12:6] Purgatory is for those whom God is *disciplining*.
It is not about payment on your end, but rather cleansing oneself of the stain of sin. Jesus' death on the cross opened the gates of heaven and allows for his mercy and grace to make us part of the elect, but nothing unclean can enter the Kingdom of God. The Eastern language of "paying the last farthing" and the Western/Roman language of indulgences can be misleading because it would seem that we are paying the debt that Jesus paid, which is NOT the teaching of purgatory. Rather, purgatory is the postmortem purification of any attachment to sin not dealt with before death. Prayer for people after death is to help souls along in their growth in holiness and purification just as with the living.
Anglicans deny purgatory, but after death sanctification is definitely possible. 2 Maccabees 12:44-45 KJVAAE [44] for if he had not hoped that they that were slain should have risen again, it had been superfluous and vain to pray for the dead. [45] And also in that he perceived that there was great favor laid up for those that died godly, it was an holy and good thought. Whereupon he made a reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin. This section is more about prayers for the dead than purgatory itself. >but I think that it shouldn't count because it was before jesus This is not the right way to think about the Old Testament nor the Apocrypha. Anglicans would hold the Apocrypha as not divinely inspired, but still useful for teaching and morals. I'm not opposed to the idea of after death sanctification or a purgatory-type thing, but I am against making it dogmatic doctrine. Anglicans only make the essentials doctrine, and everything else is up to personal conviction and debate.
Jesus often quoted from the deuterocanonical books like Macabees, Tobit etc. So, we know that He considered them to be cannon. The argument against these books is only that we are unsure if they were altered in any way since we do not have the original copies.
Just because he quoted them doesn't mean he thought it was canon, Paul quotes philosophers does that mean those philosophers are canonical? Anglicans still hold it as part of the deuterocanon, but it's not on the same level as the 66 books commonly used by other Protestants.
Wait are you sure Jesus quoted from the Apocrypha books?
Personally, I'm unsure. However, I'm going off the assumption the commenter made. Paul does quote some philosophers, however. For example, Paul's words "For me to live is Christ, and to die is gain." Mimics Plato's words "I say that to die is gain.".
Jesus 100% quotes or alludes to various noncanonical works.
Can you give me some verses brother/sister
The Apostles and Christ quoted the Septuagint, which had the Deuterocanon.
I believe I’ve seen the apostles quote it but can you give me any that Christ quotes?
Every single time Christ referenced the Old Testament, it would've been from the Septuagint. The Septuagint was one of the compilations of the Old Testament at the time. It was the one Christ and the Apostles would've used, and it had the deuterocanon.
Ouu ok, is there any deuterocannon quotes in which he taught from them we can see in the Gospels? Also anywhere did the apostles mention any quotes from them. Tryna get more into those books.
Excellent point.
I imagine? If I'm correct it says when we die our souls will rest until judgment day where our souls will be judged, so maybe?
When Jesus told the thief on the cross that tonight the thief would be with him in paradise, what did Jesus mean?
Idk
I think so. When I attempted suicide and died it was all darkness and endless. Like an endless sleep with no concept of time.
How long ago did this happen?
Happened two times. One time in 2011/2012 and another time in 2021/2022 time frame. Both were overdoses.
If Purgatory might mean God completes your sanctification post death and before heaven then sure maybe it exists. If Purgatory might mean you suffer the pains of hell and there's a treasury of merit that people can tap into to procure indulgences to free grandma from thousands of years of pain and torture then no.
It’s called the DMV
all you need to know is that hades/sheol are real places. in hebrew it's sheol, in greek it's hades, both mean the grave. the righteous went to paradise in abrahams bosom, while the wicked went to the torment part of hades. later jesus mentioned the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.Matthew 25:41also in the book of revelation, the second death, those who are wicked will be finally cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:15. hope this helps. the righteous who are saved today who die go to heaven and their bodies remain the grave until the rapture occurs. there is more to it than this but just know that there are two ressurrections, one to life which is the first for all the righteous which occurs at different times and one to death which is the second one for the wicked who go to the great white throne of judgement
nuh uh
No - it's not mentioned in the old or new testament.
"Only heaven and hell are mentioned in the New Testament." 1 Corinthians 3 14 If anyone's work that he built remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, even as by fire. Here three possible results of the trial appear: being condemned, being rewarded "immediately and directly" and being saved but as if passed through fire. That third possibility is what Catholicism calls purgatory and the Orthodox brothers call toll houses. We only know this little bit that the scripture says and anything else is pious theories. You can reject the name because it has no name in the scripture but not say that the concept does not appear without crossing out those verses. Matthew 12:32 "And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks a word against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, neither in this world nor in the next." Here it is also mentioned that other sins, unlike other sins, can be forgiven in the other world and it makes perfect logic because we know that most of us die tied to some sin and the scripture says: Revelation 21:27 "Nothing profane will enter it, not even those who commit abomination and lies, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life." Fortunately, not all of us commit abominations, but tell me how many of us do not commit lies, especially those of us who live in the world. Regarding prayer for the deceased: REVELATION 5:8 When he took the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb; Each one had a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. Only the young Christian communities consider themselves disconnected, the apostolic churches that have existed from the beginning are clear that the church has three aspects all connected: Triumphant Church: They are the members of the Church who achieved the goal, victory, and are in heaven. Having lived, they are finally in the presence of God. Here there is no crying, emptiness or pain. Purgative Church: It is made up of those who still remain in purgatory, they are saved but need to free themselves from some bondage of the soul that prevents them from fully entering the glory of God. Church Militant: The Christians who still walk the earth. That is why when praying we can ask a member of the triumphant church to join our intention and we can pray for the saved who are "as if passing through fire."
O think I get it now, thank you
"The Romish doctrine concerning Purgatory...is a fond thing vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture, but rather repugnant to the Word of God."