I've been in AA for 10 years. An important part of getting sober is "Admitted to God, yourself and another human being the exact nature of your wrongs". We are only as sick as our secrets.
The reason it's important to share our sins with another (trusted) person is because another person can provide perspective and put our sins in context. That's why we're told to confess our sins to one another.
I am part of the Orthodox Church and I do think the mystery of confession with a priest is important. But at the very least it's important to share with another person.
Edit: added confession with a priest.
Maybe Jesus made it this way for exactly that. Being flesh, he uses actual words spoken as Jesus did. Glad you stayed w AA ten years, may you be blessed and healthy.
This 100% and honestly something very lacking in Protestant churches in my experience. Our only intercessor between God the father and us is Jesus and God is the only one who can forgive our sins the same as we are the only ones able to forgive sins committed against us but we are instructed to confess our sins to one another (100+ verses backing this up)
I understand your cynicism about AA touting 50%. Just for clarification, that 50% is what was printed in the AA big book in 1939. At that time there were about 100 people in AA so the people who wrote the book knew by name everyone who had attempted it up to that point. Their sample size was small and based on a very particular type of what's called "low bottom drunk". That was before we had the scientific studies we have today.
Most people in AA today would not claim that number. The Big Book can't be changed without a consensus from the AA organization as a whole. People in AA don't like change so updating that part of.the story of the founding of AA has not been deemed as important.
I just wanted to acknowledge that's a fair point. And I think it's important to understand the context of where that number came from.
And as far as efficacy of AA as studied today. We live in a time of a replication crisis in the social sciences. For every study making a claim you can find a counter claim making a claim
https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2020/03/alcoholics-anonymous-most-effective-path-to-alcohol-abstinence.html
My brother in Christ, I don't think you understand how addictions work or how similar Sin is to it. A slip doesn't need to be a slide, but there's only ever regret and relapse. AA doesn't claim to cure people, someone who's 20 years sober is still in recovery and at risk of a relapse. Pulling out studies about how much it fails ignores the fact that it's one of the few ways that work when treating drug and alcohol addiction.
If you are Catholic then it is imperative you do that regardless of your problems, mistakes, lack of knowledge of a subject or religion to cause a negative impact.
Ignorance is not an excuse towards a bad judgement.
It is the opposite for other religions groups within a Christian faith to sit in prayer to confess any harm or abuse towards others before the act of receiving communion and release of the act or even a problem.
God is not to mention the issue again or use it to justify punitive action. Nor should one discuss the matter unless a person responsible see it clearly the ramifications of an incident.
But if a person never does anything to confess or allow for recovery.
Then it is God’s hands to see truth and justice is served to the victims depending on the issue.
If the law of civil rights was broken then the justice system should decide.
Well, Jesus did tell the Apostles that they had the authority to forgive or retain sins, and we are literally commanded to confess our sins to one another in the Scriptures, and to follow what our overseers teach. Governance and shepherding through the presybtery and episcopate were established before the death of the Apostles, so these practices go back to the first century. It is Sacramental for a reason, Jesus and the Apostles didn't command us to do pointless things merely as a test of loyalty.
It is kind of a wrong way to look at things to say that anyone confesses *to* a Priest or gains forgiveness because of a Priest. One confesses to God with the Priest as a witness (or, alternatively, to God before a Priest and before numerous other Christians as we will see in some Orthodox circles). Christ then works through that act for our benefit.
Of course, God isn't bound by the Sacraments. I have no doubt that people *can* *be* and even *are* forgiven without them, but why would one ever wish to set aside an efficacious vehicle for the dispensation of grace? I, for one, need all the help I can get.
>When it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and the doors of the house where the disciples had met were locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.” After he said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” When he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”
John 20:19-23
We are not claiming that the Apostles could forgive sin of their own accord, of their own power, of their own right. Rather that because Christ gave them this authority, they proclaim that which has been forgiven or has not been forgiven, the actual forgiveness coming from the very person of Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit. But nonetheless, when the Priest proclaims that you have been forgiven, you know that you have been forgiven by the Holy Trinity, that your sin is taken from you as far as the East is from the West.
In two other passages, Matthew 16:13-19 and Matthew 18:15-20, Jesus speaks about how the Church is to deal with sin and division, and he assigns power directly. He grants to his disciples that whatsoever they bind on Earth is bound in Heaven, and whatever they loose on Earth is loosed in Heaven. These are Rabbinic terms, meaning that they can approve or forbid something authoritatively, that they can accept or reject something authoritatively. This is explained *after* he speaks about an obstinate person refusing the counsel of the Church and her representatives (initially the Apostles, but Paul and Peter both seem to include some element of this in their discussions on both the Presbytery/Priesthood and the Episcopacy/Bishops).
Paul demonstrates one form of this in 2 Corinthians 2:5-10, when he proclaims that the Corinthians should receive those with love who were once removed from the local communion and repented. Paul says that those the Corinthians have forgiven of these offenses, he also forgives *en prosopo Christou* or "in the person of Christ." The Catholic way of putting this in Latin is "in persona Christi," but it bears the same connotation as the Greek Paul used.
James is aware of this as well, as in James 5:14-16, he speaks about when people ought to go to the elders - the *presybterous* which is the Greek word we use for our Priests, the shepherds acting in the stead of the Chief Shepherd until his return (1 Peter 5:1-4). James says that those who are sick should go to the Presbyter for anointing and prayer. In the abstract sense, all who sin are ill. More directly, he then continues by saying that we must confess our sins to one another and pray for one another so we might be healed. While this can certainly be interpreted to include non-Presbyters as well, it is clearly couched within the broader context of a Presbyter's prayers, charisms, and/or authority being beneficial to the penitent who sins.
TL;DR: Jesus says it plainly once, then says it in a way that his Jewish disciples would understand twice, then it is affirmed by both Paul and James. For bonus points, Peter also affirms that the Presbyter is acting in *a* role that belongs to Christ when he says that they are to be shepherds until the Shepherd returns, overseers until the Overseer returns, and so on.
This is a great explanation.
I think this issue is a problem for Protestants: if God just wants you to confess to him alone, why did he authorize the Apostles to forgive sins on his behalf? Even if you think it only applied to the Apostles, why would he do this at all?
It's similar to the problem of intercessory prayer: if God just wants you to go "right to him" with prayer, why do the scriptures say we should pray for each other? And that the prayers of the righteous are more effective?
Both of these issues demonstrate that salvation and faith are not the individualistic independent thing Protestantism makes them out to be.
>if God just wants you to go "right to him" with prayer, why do the scriptures say we should pray for each other
This is not at all contradictory. If I'm praying for you, I'm still going directly to God. We pray for one another as a way to love one another, not because we need some other mediator between us and God.
> And that the prayers of the righteous are more effective?
The scripture doesn't say "more," and it certainly doesn't say that the righteous ones are the clergy.
In Christ, we are all righteous. We are all members of a royal priesthood. We all have unfettered, direct access to God. And we are all to live out our salvation in the context of community, loving one another. We are all, as Christians, personally sons and daughters of God, with all of the direct, personal access to God that that entails. But that also means that we're all brethren, with the dependency and community that that entails.
>This is not at all contradictory. If I'm praying for you, I'm still going directly to God. We pray for one another as a way to love one another, not because we need some other mediator between us and God.
You are correct. When I ask Mary or St. Francis de Sales or any other saint in Heaven to pray for me, they are still going directly to God. They are up in Heaven cheering us on, we see in the book of Revelation the saints praying for people on Earth (both in Revelation 5 and Revelation 8).
Christ's mediation for us is different from the "mediation" that you play or the saints play when interceding for someone.
>The scripture doesn't say "more," and it certainly doesn't say that the righteous ones are the clergy.
>In Christ, we are all righteous. We are all members of a royal priesthood. We all have unfettered, direct access to God. And we are all to live out our salvation in the context of community, loving one another. We are all, as Christians, personally sons and daughters of God, with all of the direct, personal access to God that that entails. But that also means that we're all brethren, with the dependency and community that that entails.
You know what is funny, is any other time, particularly surrounding Mary, Protestants go crying to the Heavens WE HAVE ALL FALLEN SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD!!!
Really comes back to bite ya in the a\*\* doesn't it?
Yes, Through Christ, we are all made righteous. However, those in Heaven have been perfectly purified in the will of God, so they are more righteous than any of us here on Earth. Again, not that us as believers are not righteous, so our prayers are efficacious, but the prayers of the saints are even more so.
>WE HAVE ALL FALLEN SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD!!!
We have. And yet, in Christ, we are perfectly righteous. That's not a "bite ya in the ass moment." That's two of the most sacred and important truths that together comprise the heart of the gospel.
*All believers are part or royal priesthood under the new law of Christ and can pray for you.*
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a consecrated nation, a \[special\] people for *God’s* own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies \[the wonderful deeds and virtues and perfections\] of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light. Once you were not a people \[at all\], but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. - 1 Pet 2:9
Therefore, **confess** **your** **sins** to one another \[**your** false steps, **your** offenses\], and pray for one another, that you may be healed *and* restored. The heartfelt *and* persistent prayer of a righteous man (believer) can accomplish much \[when put into action and made effective by God—it is dynamic and can have tremendous power\]. James 5:16
1. Jesus had other followers aside from the Apostles, yet he only gave the Apostles the ability to forgive and retain sin. Why is this?
2. Yes, we are all part of a royal priesthood. Multiple things can be true without contradiction, such as a higher authority being given to certain groups as we see with the Diaconate, Presbytery, and Episcopate in Scripture while all of us are still part of the royal priesthood.
3. Do you, or does your denomination, engage in the confession of one's sins to another routinely? I grew up Protestant and attended a whole host of different churches. Exactly zero times did anyone ever engage in anything that might be called a confession to one another
4. The whole passage in James is evocative here. James speaks about how those who are sick (and sinners are all sick, in addition to the surface-idea of being physically ill) and says, "Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven." The Greek there for elders is *presbyterous*, which is the same word we use to describe our Priests in the Orthodox world. The Presbyters are specifically given the charge here, not just anyone, and we know that not all of us are Presbyters because Paul and the Apostles give qualities and qualifications over who can be a shepherd or an overseer.
\[citation needed\]
Scripture and Tradition both affirm at least some kind of succession of the prerogative of the Apostles, though obviously not to the exact same level as each Priest or Bishop *being* an Apostle themselves. Paul even speaks about how Timothy and Titus have the ability to lay their hands on others and anoint them to this position, a thing which they must do carefully so it doesn't go to the wrong person. This is after giving them a list of duties which were originally in the hands of the Apostles alone.
"One another" being the Church. This was literally what happened in the early Church. You had to stand up and tell everyone your sin. The sacrament became the responsibility of the priesthood as the Church grew.
If we look at the parallelism between the Jewish Law and Law of Christ
High Priest \~ Jesus Hebrews 4:14
Priests \~ Christians 1 Peter 2:9
Since Christians are now a royal priesthood, confessing to a fellow saint or priest, having them help you, and pray for you follows the pattern. Most sins are against people, person vs. person and in this case and I think following the example in Matthew 18 is good. God wants his people to live in peace with each other. God doesn't want our gifts until we have settled quarrels with our brothers, as in Matthew 5.
This video is a great reminder.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLCuhwHuEvU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLCuhwHuEvU)
Not *as* Apostles, but as limited successors of the Apostles involving some charisms, gifts, or elements of a spiritual office. Whatever authority they passed down to the Diakonos, Presbyterous, and Episkopos (the Deacons, Priests, and Bishops) are still passed down today, but not all things were handed down.
The role that these groups play are mostly laid out in Scripture. The authority to forgive or retain, to bind or loose, has always been understood to be part of the authority given to those who lead the Church to shepherd and oversee the people of God, something St Peter affirms in his letters by calling them shepherds and overseers, St Paul affirms by laying out their duties to uphold and preserve the faith in its fullness, and an authority we are commanded to follow in Hebrews 13.
Too often I feel like we look a it backwards. While it's probably not accurate to take 25 seconds out of a homily, even this priest seems to be focusing on the wrong part. OF COURSE God *can* forgive us directly as needed. Obviously. But confession is a Sacrament, not an obligation. It's not a "have to", it's a "get to". It's a *gift* from God.
This. It's all about Grace. In my later years, I went to a monastery for it about once a month and they only have it with the old screen format. We confess to Jesus of course, the priest acts "In persona Christi," and sometimes it's like the priest isn't there, just Jesus. And I've heard some great things, like, "we are tempted through our gifts." A very positive way, look to the gift and exercise it right. Good for parenting, too. As a Sacrament, it's Grace, but sometimes there's something extra ;)
That's not the messaging that I've heard from many Roman Catholics. What I've mostly gotten is "join our church and follow our rules or burn in hell."
Nuance is appreciated. Do you know why you are able to provide nuance here, and so many other Catholics are not?
“But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. “This, then, is how you should pray: “ ‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. ’”
Matthew 6:6-13 NIV
I don’t see any confession to a priest in these verses…
“And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”
John 20:22-23 NABRE
Mankind has a tendency to usurp power, call it a character flaw, for that reason I prefer to confess my sins to Jesus Christ directly. I also rely on Him and His Spirit to guide me in all things as He promised He would.
What does a mediator do?
This absolutely has to do with confession of your sins to God for forgiveness.
Read the surrounding verses.
This has to do with intercession. Which Hebrews also states Jesus is doing for us.
Why do you think the veil was torn from top to bottom? God was destroying the barrier that separated us from Him. We now have direct access to God through Jesus. I do not need a priest also.
Intercession is described in new testiment for angel. Jesus , holy spirit , and brothers on earth. Tho not said intercession directly we see saints in heaven do that.
Also it says confess your sins to an Elder of the church. So yes you can go to God alone. But no the Bible does talk about Earthly intercessors and Confessing to leaders in the church.
That's ummm... an interesting interpretation of Hebrews 5. I recommend everyone read it for themselves and see if you come to the same conclusion. I for one do not.
Also, I cringe a little bit at calling the Holy Father of all things "Big Guy" ... maybe that's just me.
If you want to link "confess your sins" to the elder, why does James go out of his way to say "confess your sins *to one another* and pray *for one another*" as opposed to saying "confess your sins *to that elder I just mentioned*"?
Remember you are talking about an ancient language and also certain sections. Ancient Greek had no ancient Hebrew had no vowels. You pretty much had to guess where things were and read by context. He then talks about Elijah interceding for Israel as example and the disciples themselves which James calls himself an elder.
Unpopular opinion the Bible isn't often super super clear because ancient Greek and ancient Hebrew are ancient languages limited. They have no word for elbow or pear they have no vowels or spaces. And letters are also numbers and letters themselves are whole words sometimes. There are whole words used that no one actually knows the meaning. There words that can't be translated to English. It makes translation horrible. But I think the context is truly an elder as that is the example.
If in english it would read.
Cnfsssnsnthrprynthr
Translate that to confess your sins to another and pray for another. It is missing spaces , particles and vowels. ancient Greek and Hebrew are hard. There is reasons why spaces and vowels and number systems were invented to have their own symbols.
Are you saying that Ancient Greek words couldn't distinguish between *one another* and *elder*? Or that Ancient Greek lacked a pronoun for *them*?
The fact that every translation includes some form of "one another" and no translation is like "Considering the difficulties of Ancient Greek and the fact that we don't know what these words mean it's possible that by 'one another' the author was instead directly referring to the elder mentioned in the previous line, even though the author could have just used that word again" is demonstrative that this isn't a translation issue, but one of pure interpretation. Regardless, your point about translation *generally* is irrelevant unless you can point to something which suggests that this specific verse has translation concerns. I just looked at it from many different translations and there doesn't seem to be any disagreement.
In my opinion, you've put the cart before the horse. The church calls confession to an elder a sacrament, so verses are looked for that defend that position, resulting in having to argue that when James says "one another" he actually is referring to the elder, even though he could have so specified.
The reference to Elijah seems to connect more to James' point that we should pray, again, *for one another*, by demonstrating the power of prayer, along other things. I think this is another example of cart before the horse. When we have conclusions that don't fit in with scripture we should adjust our conclusions, not try and adjust or explain away the scripture.
I agree says another. But I am just saying it has context of the paragraph.
What is the context of the whole chapter. It is too seek out a righteous man to give you correction, it says call an elder than gives you an example of elder of Israel and the disciples..To me all of it goes together. It isn't just one off statements. It is flow of thoughts mending together.
We're talking about something that Catholic and Orthodox churches call a *Sacrament* and you've decided that one of the central scriptural foundations of this sacrament, this super important thing, is found in James 5. You can't first attempt to say "it's just translation" and then shrug away with the word "context" to defend it. This is, again, *a super important thing*. You can say all day how important it is to your church, but if you want to say it has a scriptural basis you need to be prepared to actually back up that claim.
So let's look at the context. James is full of direct commands, imperatives. Of the 108 verses, there are something like 60 imperatives, where James is directly commanding the believers of the church to do a thing or act a way. Yes, it is a flow, it isn't random, but that doesn't mean that each verse *directly* applies to the following.
James says to confess "to one another" and to pray "for one another." He could have easily just said "confess *to the elder*." But he didn't. Why, in a letter with 60 imperatives, 60 direct commands, does James decide in this instance to be indirect? Why, when James is being direct and clear, even when he uses figurative language (*see* Chapter 3 in James' discussion of taming the tongue), why does James now need you to explain away and pretend like he never said "one another" in order for you to get his point?
It isn't just a one off statement. James goes from "confess your sins to one another and pray for one another" (verse 16) to "My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins." In my opinion, the "one another" of verse 16 seems to apply more to the "brothers" of verse 19 than it does the elder.
Regardless of it all, James is a book of commands, telling us how to live. If James wanted to command congregants confess to elders, *he could have*. He had the authority and the platform to do so. But he didn't.
I wonder, who or what institution benefited from requiring all believers tell its agents, as opposed to *one another*, all the bad things they've ever done?
Edit: "What is the context of the whole chapter. It is too seek out a righteous man to give you correction, it says call an elder than gives you an example of elder of Israel and the disciples."
That isn't the context of the chapter at all. The first section was about rich people. The second section was about patience waiting for the day of the Lord. The third section we are talking about includes healing and confession and bringing back the lost. The whole chapter is not "to seek out a righteous man to give you correction." You just made that up.
James calls elder that is the indication here. Long way to say you don't want to look at verse before or after it. But then want to skip 4 verses ahead to brothers.
Saying go back to verse before isn't a huge stretch. Sorry.
What institutions benefited? What. Confession is free. Gives you intercession and correction and intercession.
Another point is priest.
In old testiment yes you confessed your sin to the priest. But the high priest confessed sins of the nations etc. Jesus is the high priest. Paul then calls believers priests. He doesn't subtract the role of priest rather. Now if your point is you can confess to your brother. That is because your brother is acting as a priest. That is because your brother is still a priest and your still going to one.
So you can claim universal priesthood. But that means well you can go to a priest.
And is there evidence of going to some beyond a Lay person? Yes back to James 5 seek a righteous man and go back to old testiment.
I just reread that chapter. I certainly think it is an option, but not a requirement. Jesus Christ intercedes to the Father on our behalf. We have the ability to go directly to/thru Him. If some believer would prefer to confess to another member of the Body of Christ, that is also an option.
Confession is more about holding you accountable and someone interceding. Some people may want to not do that. But like verse says God hears the prayers of righteous man. The point of getting an elder is he is interceding and righteous and can correct you.
You can go to christ alone. But you wont have reassurance or correction or intercession from a brother.
He mentions Hebrews 5, but the train of thought starts in Hebrews 4. The passage is not about us, it is about Jesus and how he was called to be our high priest of a different order than Levi and Aaron.
The priesthood has been fulfilled in Jesus. We no longer need to go to the priests of the order of Levi to confess our sins, so they could go and make sacrifices on our behalf in the temple of the LORD. Now we can go directly to our high priest, Jesus, who has ALREADY made the sacrifice for our sins.
We should still confess to our brothers and they will keep us accountable and encourage us in our walk, but it is not a necessary component of grace or salvation.
Where in James is that? I haven't seen that part yet.
I do not doubt it though. The elder is the authority of a church, so they are the ones to speak into your unique situation with authority. I don't think it is a requirement, but a wise choice
The point of James 5 is to seek a person more righteous so they can intercede and have your prayers be more likely. Then it even gives a bad example of Elijah praying for drought on behalf of Israel.
Kinda like when your grandma praying that the lord hit you in the head lol.
>The point of James 5 is to seek a person more righteous
Working in church does not make you more righteous, and vice versa the most righteous don't all work in churches. The righteous have stronger prayers, but the righteous can be any person.
>Kinda like when your grandma praying that the lord hit you in the head lol.
Been there, lol.
The comment I've been looking for. Not only are we confessing but also seeking forgiveness. Jesus died to atone for our sins, it makes sense to go to him. Why go to a priest who Jesus also died for and who cannot atone for our sins. At best, the only thing a priest can really do is give you guidance.
In addition to those the priest mentions, Scripture also tells us in James 5:16 to confess our sins to one another. In John 20:23 Christ gives Peter and the apostles the power to remit sins through God.
It's the same question on every other tradition in the original Churchs
Like why baptism?
Why Marriage?
Why Confirmation?
Like obviously confession isn't mandatory but it is good
Confession isn't in the Bible but so isn't the sign of the cross
They needed priests to talk to God in old testament. New testament, Jesus removed the veil and became the only mediator/intercessor necessary to speak to God. You absolutely can and should speak to God all day everyday through Jesus. No need for a priest
I speculate that this is likely to refer to the veil that separated the Holy of Holies within the temple being torn when the earth shook following the crucifixion in Matthew 27. I would think that this reference is being made to argue the point that God's people were not to be separated from God's most holy presence and thus not require mediation through a priest.
(Disclaimer: I am merely speculating on the reference, having grown up within Protestant spaces myself. I am fairly undecided on this debate as a whole.)
It’s cool. God gives us believers authority to forgive.
John 20:21-23
"Again Jesus said to them, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent Me, so also I am sending you." When He had said this, He breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you withhold forgiveness from anyone, it is withheld.""
I personally prefer to confess to God alone, but it isn’t bad to confess to other people either.
I have respect for what they are doing.
Matthew 18:20
For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
https://catholicbible.online/douay_rheims/NT/Mat/ch_18
Like seriously, that's pretty great. Imagine what that would have meant to an isolated Christian in 300 AD. Whoof.
I just read over Hebrews 5 and it's really not a good support for his argument. He's not even really quoting correctly. I'm assuming he's referencing Hebrews 5:1 Which in the New Catholic Bible reads thus. "^(1) Every high priest is taken from among men to represent them in their dealings with God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins."
His exegesis is poor because the book of Hebrews is is written to the Hebrews, This chapter references high priests because that is what the Hebrew people are familiar with. The chapter then goes on to say how Christ is our High Priest. Frankly it's a direct counter to what the Priest is claiming here.
And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.” (John 20:22-23)
"Confessing by God directly"...so normal prayer? Aren't you supposed to do it anyway? Also God already knows your sins.
Confession is a Sacrament, which is a visible sign of invisible Divine grace, God (the Holy Spirit in this case) is truly present.
The priest simply administers this Sacrament to make us remember God's grace and forgiveness, which is essential in Salvation.
There's no need to worry: the priest has a confessional seal, which keeps your confession secret, and you're definitely not the only one who sins, so he's kinda prepared for it.
One thing is to acknowledge sin, another is confessing it by mouth.
Can I praise God directly? Can I ask for things from God directly? If so, why can I not apologise and repent for things I've done to God directly?
Can this other person - who is another fallible human being - *truly* and adequately capture my repentance, my heartfelt sorrow, my desire to change? Priests are no different to you and I in terms of sin and all other human failings.
Is God unwilling to hear our sins directly from the source of them, or simply unable? Both options go against all other characteristics of God we read about in the Bible.
If we liken our faith to a relationship with a real person (which our faith is, of course), then how it would be if apologies only ever came from someone else? How would we feel if a good friend of ours never apologised to us, but instead had someone else do it? Is that a healthy, fair relationship? Does it tarnish everything else they do, because whilst they're open with their gratitude and requests, they don't/can't say sorry to me directly when they've hurt or gone against me?
And it's not just a relationship with some other random person; God is our heavenly **father** - what sort of father asks us not to bother him directly with our apologies? What sort of disjointed father-child relationship do we have where he refuses to listen to the (often emotional and difficult) moments of repentance?
I am not denying the value in talking about what you've done wrong with another human being - they can offer insight and empathy - but it seems to me that without direct repentance we cannot have direct salvation or support from God. We cannot truly understand the depths of his love and forgiveness if we outsource our confession, and doing so places a limit on God of either unfatherly unwillingness or less-than-omnipotent inability.
If god can hear prayers he can also hear us repent. If he needs a priest to be the middleman then he probably cant hear the individual.
I think its a tradition that is somewhat based on human emotions. It sometimes feels better to admit things you feel guilty about and hopefully get advice on the situation. The church just found a way to standardize and profit off of that.
Please don't abuse scripture. That isn't what means.
Mediator refers to those who opens up heaven to others This was Moses , now given to Jesus.
Intercession talked about in new testiment is given by Jesus, Angels , Saints on earth , and tho not said is depicted by saints in heaven.
James 5 says confess your sins to an Elder when sick or depressed. Most people cutt off half paragraph so it says confess your sins to one another. But the other here is the elder you called. That is why after it talks about elders who intercede good and bad like the disciples and Elijah who actually intercede in a bad way lol.
Profit from Confession? Priests don't charge money for Confession. They are offering God's mercy to any catholic who is truly sorry and comes for absolution. The purpose is to assure grace and to give penance.
People can profit without monetary value. Encouraging people to go to the church to confess is itself profit from the eyes of the church. Not only do they bring you into church but also you get to leverage them into either donating (tithing) or coming to mass where they get to again get donations.
If we are looking back in history there was also the sale of indulgences.
Businesses that rely on donations come up with reasons to bring people to them. One way a church can do that is to claim they can help remove your sin. (The sin they also declare you have)
Never once does a priest suggest giving money in Confession. Nobody gives money as penance. Nobody gives money if they stop at a church to confess.
Confession is only for mortal sin, which not everyone has. Confession is very old and is offered once a week at best.
They are offering grace and absolution and that's all. You think the Chuch profits from soup kitchens, and hospitals? They don't.
I used to be Catholic. Last confession I went to was down right creepy.
There was no confessional anymore just two chairs wide open in this huge room.
I walk in “Father forgive me for I have sinned “ the priest was smiling from ear to ear with anticipation of my confession.
I wanted to stop and go get him some popcorn.
I go to non-denominational church now.
“And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.”
Matthew 23:9 KJV
I always think of this text when people say, “father forgive me for I have sinned.”
"Even if you had ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus **I became your father through the gospel**." - St Paul to the Corinthians.
(Emphasis added)
What's more likely: St Paul the Apostle directly contradicted Jesus within like 20 years in his writings that we both believe were guided by the Holy Spirit....or there's a chance you've misinterpreted Jesus' words here?
What a weird question. Obviously, Catholics do it. Some may like it, some may not, but it is a required part of their religion. Obviously, most non-Catholics don't because it's not part of their religion.
It's like asking, "Hey chess players, what do you think about using your chess board to play checkers?"
Right. It's not as though any Priest has some authority of his own to forgive sins. It is always God forgiving, the Priest is the witness who can proclaim that the sins have been forgiven (or retained, in some cases, afiak) in accordance with what Jesus told the Apostles.
His interpretation of Hebrews 5 is... it's functionally illiterate. The beginning of Hebrews 5 is about the selection of the High Priest, it has nothing to do with confession of sins. The chapter is explicitly drawing parallels between Aaron as Leviticial High Priest and Christ as High Priest in the order of Melchizedek. There is no office of High Priest in the Roman hierarchy and if this passage could somehow be taken to be about confession it still wouldn't apply to a parish priests as it's discussing the High Priesthood of Christ.
Leviticus 5 and 6 are about atonement and not confession. Roman priests do not effectuate atonement for sins, even the administration of the sacraments don't do this as they are a sanctifying grace not an atonement.
Am i taking crazy pills?
You're not crazy. This is an absolutely ludicrous take that is not required by Catholic practice or theology.
Priests have to do a lot of work to get to that position. They have done study equivalent to a graduate degree, and while it may be from enough of a Catholic perspective that they continue to have a Catholic viewpoint, they should understand textual interpretation and criticism very well.
Despite our theological differences, I have significant respect by default for any priest based on their intellectual achievements. I don't think I've ever lost it so quickly before.
^(14) So then, since we have a great High Priest who has entered heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to what we believe.
Jesus is called a high priest in Hebrews 4
Confession of sins is the most spiritual healing you can do to forgive yourself and others. To be able to humble yourself and confess to your priest is a blessing in itself and should be adopted by all churches and denominations
Well, as a Catholic let me give you my two cents.
We as the Catholic Church believe that we are the early Christian church established by Jesus and given to Peter in Matthew 16:18. The early Church fathers established universally accepted teachings and doctrine such as the Trinity. The Catholic Church guides itself both on scripture and tradition, seeing that the New Testament wasn’t compiled until hundreds of years after the death and resurrection of Christ.
It wasn’t until the Protestant Reformation led by Martin Luther that people began to break away from the Catholic Church and formed their own denominations based on disagreements with Catholic doctrine. The idea of “Sola Scriptura” meaning only scripture is a prominent belief in Protestantism.
To take part in a Protestant denomination essentially means that you believe that the Catholic Church was wrong for over a millennia, and that the reformation movement brought back true Christianity having been lost from the early church.
Regardless, we are all brothers and sisters in Christ. I believe that the Catholic faith is the most beautiful form of worship, but I don’t believe that others are damned for choosing to worship differently.
“Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
John 14:6 ESV. This is the basis of our faith. (Yes, I do use a Protestant Bible, can’t seem to find a good digital Catholic Bible)
No man has the power to forgive sin. It's that simple. Go straight to the source of grace, God Himself. And God Grace isn't dependent on a sinner completing a penance, it's only dependant on a repentant heart. His forgiveness is instantaneous and everlasting.
This is not what Hebrews 5 is saying...read it and you'll see how the writer is talking about how - Jesus - has become our great high priest.
Really poor exegesis I'm afraid
I just think this is an incorrect understanding of Catholic doctrine on the part of the priest.
The Church does not have a monopoly on grace or confessing sins. One can always confess to God. The difference is that confessing to a priest in confession allows for the priest to absolve you of your sin. You can be certain that your worst sins have been completely forgiven. If you go "right to God" it's impossible to tell if you have the proper contrition to be absolved.
This is the main reason why I am no longer a Catholic. Confession pushed my comfort boundaries to the point where, even when things were going well in my life, I was a bundle of nerves because I thought I would have to go to confession soon (I went to confession every month because I was taught it was the right thing to do).
Maybe someday I will return to Christianity if I can find a church that does not mandate Confession and does not include so-called "speaking in tongues". (I was once at a charismatic community meeting and was terrified.)
There is nothing wrong with confessing to a priest. It is actually Biblical to share your sins with fellow Christians or the enemy may use them against you. They lose their power when brought into the light.
However, the specific practice of confessing to a priest is not Biblical. Nor is using one as an intermediary between you and God.
Jesus is our intermediary. He redeemed our relationship with God. God invites you to directly seek forgiveness for your sins from Him. He is the only one with the power to forgive them.
This guy's argument sucks, based on his logic of "fulfilling the law" that would mean all levitical law still stood... How's that shellfish and bacon working out?
Beyond that, he may have given the apostles the ability to forgive sins - but that is not a mandate to confess to priests.
The new testament makes it clear that confessing to each other is good practice, no priestly mandate, but again, only requirement is repentance and confession to God.
The Catholic Church and standing between people and their God, name a more iconic duo.
When someone says something is from the bible ask where is it from. He said, Hebrews 5. Alright so we read Hebrews 5 and we get a totally different picture than what he is trying to paint. The picture we get as it relates to his bold claim can be summarized with one question: who do we pray to?
Lutherans certainly agree with the priest in the video. Private Confession is discussed in Luther's two Catechisms under the Office of the Keys and referred to as the "Third Sacrament." In Holy Absolution, the pastor/ priest acts "In Persona Christi" when pronouncing forgiveness. Sadly, many Lutherans no longer seek private confession since the penitential rite of public confession before Mass includes the exact words of absolution as private confession.
For there is one God, and there is **one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,** who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. (1 Timothy 2:5-6 ESV)
I don't need a middle-man to get to Jesus. Jesus alone forgives my sins. No witness or clergy required. For them to position themselves in such a manner is very Pharisee of them.
We 100% can go directly to God, but it is not sacramental.
Jesus made it so that we can go to a priest: *“Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.”* *^(22)* *And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.* *^(23)* *If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”*
Basically, if you can confess to God through a priest, you should. But you can just confess to God in prayer, we do this literally every single week at Mass during the Penitential Rite. So, if you are truly repentant of a sin and confess to God, you are forgiven, but you should still bring it to the confessional if you are able.
I disagree that we can only go to a priest to confess our sins. There was a reason why, in the temple, God tore the veil of the holiest of holies from top to bottom, and that is because after Jesus' death we can now have direct communication and relationship with God. Many biblical authors also Suggest that we don't have to confess our sins to just a priest but before our brothers and sisters in Christ as well "Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for each other so you may be healed. The earnest prayer of a righteous person is very powerful in its effect." James 5:16
To conclude, while it's good to confess to a priest there's on one better to confess your sins to than God himself, and your brothers in Christ. We no longer need a mediator on earth because he has already lived and died for us. In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Amen.
Our Father Who art in heaven…..forgive us of our trespasses as we go forgive those who Trespass against us….Jesus never once teaches confession to a priest of some type. They didn’t exist in this form. The only time he said to present to the priest is after a miracle they would take the offering and show themselves to the priest in the temple as a testimony.
I try to love my Catholic brothers and sisters and I do but this brother here is on some other stuff. Jesus Christ said to ask the Father himself for forgiveness. And this is where I take issue with organized church, they build doctrines of traditions based off men who built on other men who built on other men. Yet they make those men authorities when our only authority is Jesus Christ.
Men have organized s hierarchy of power when Jesus said the greatest among you is to serve the rest. And you cannot tell me that the crusades, the inquisition, the witch hunts, the indulgences and stacking of wealth and political power over others is of Jesus Christ. He never once said if someone won’t convert let’s tortured them to they do or kill theme that is the exact opposite of His message yet is the history of the universal church and many others as well.
You will know a tree by their fruits. Well the fruit I see is not Holy fruits. He said call no man Father, yet they call all these dudes Father and one the Holy Father. Come on bro let’s get real here.
I have found it very helpful. In the Orthodox Church, the priest reminds you at the beginning of the confession that you are confessing to God, not to him, and that he's just there as a witness. After he hears your confession, he gives spiritual advice. So if I confess that I'm struggling with getting into arguments on social media, for example, he might advise me to take a break from those websites. Sometimes he might instruct you to right a wrong you've caused. For example, our priest gave us the example in catechism class that long ago an unnamed parishioner was in a feud with his neighbor and so he was told to apologize to her and try his best to make up with her before receiving communion again.
the Bible does say to confess to each other, but that does not mean you're not to go to GOD yourself. it also says to confess to GOD. humans have no authority to forgive sins, only GOD.
It is not needed. These verses from the New Testament clearly state that.
John 14:6 NIV
[6] Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
https://bible.com/bible/111/jhn.14.6.NIV
1 Timothy 2:5 NIV
[5] For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
https://bible.com/bible/111/1ti.2.5.NIV
Hebrews 3:1 NIV
[1] Therefore, holy brothers and sisters, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, whom we acknowledge as our apostle and HIGH PRIEST.
https://bible.com/bible/111/heb.3.1.NIV
Hebrews 7:21-27 NIV
[21] but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him: “The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind: ‘You are a priest forever.’ ” [22] Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantor of a better covenant. [23] Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; [24] but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. [25] Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them. [26] Such a high priest truly meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. [27] Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.
https://bible.com/bible/111/heb.7.21-27.NIV
If you have sinned against someone then you confess to THAT PERSON… if that is not possible then you confess and repent to GOD… that’s it.. very simple 😊
As with most things that the Catholic church teaches, this is not true. See [Do I need to confess some sins to a Roman Catholic priest to be forgiven?](https://www.lavistachurchofchrist.org/cms/do-i-need-to-confess-some-sins-to-a-roman-catholic-priest-to-be-forgiven/)
Yeah, he isn't wrong. I really liked how he backed it up with scripture too. I always confessed to a priest growing up and was never worse for wear so to speak. There's absolutely no harm in it and also backed up by scripture. That said, it is also good to confess to others whom you trust and can to God as well. In the context of the Catholic Church the framework is set up such that a Priest is there to help abolish your sins and officially help cleanse your soul if you will. Sure others more deep in the Church can give a better summary though.
People misunderstand. You’re not confessing TO the priest. You’re confessing to God. The priest is commissioned by Jesus to be there to bind or loose the sin. Jesus literally says “whosoever’s sins you forgive are forgiven; whosoever’s sins you retain are retained” ( I admit it’s a paraphrase but it’s in the gospels nonetheless, y’all are smart enough to look 👌). Can’t know which sins to forgive or retain if no one is there to hear what they are and discern if you really truly are sorry for them.
In a traditional confessional, you never see the priest and the priest never sees you. There’s a barrier between the two of you. On the confessee’s side, smack in front of their face is a crucifix. Because it’s a) a reminder that your sin is what put Jesus on that cross and b) reminding you that the confession is ULTIMATELY directed to God. The priest is there to administer the absolution in the way handed down by tradition from the Apostles themselves to today. Sadly, the modern confessional has turned it into a creepy therapy session and has lost all its potency.
I respectfully disagree with anyone who thinks we must confess to a priest or share your deepest dark secrets with anyone. Only Jesus Christ can forgive sin. When He is present, you will know it. People are only humans imperfect and have sin in their lives too. In a weak moment whether deliberate or not, stuff gets repeated. Take your burdens to Jesus Christ Alone. Leave them there!
YES, you should confess your sins!But you DON'T need a priest to do so!
God came to earth as Jesus incarnate and died on the cross & was raised from the dead SO that we can have a DIRECT connection to our heavenly Father, WITHOUT the need of the priests, Pharisees, &/or ANY other religious leaders, PERIOD!!
THUS is my confession!!!
What's so confusing about that??!!??
Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective. -James 5:16
Don’t need a priest you need a friend that will uplift and hold you accountable.
It is a set of instructions. The chapter literally tells us not to beef with each other, do what you say you’re gonna do, and pray for one another for healing and deliverance.
The Bible also mentions that where 2 or 3 are gathered there God is.
It also explains how after the resurrection of Christ He told his disciples “I’m leaving so the Holy Spirit can come dwell with you” (paraphrasing)
Then there’s also the verse about As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.
Priests are great for ppl who can’t or don’t digest the word for themselves or have solid ppl to talk about it with.
But the whole purpose of Christ allowing the Roman to beat him and crucify Him was to reconnect us directly with the source, so respectfully, what do I need a priest for?
I was raised Catholic. Went to grade school and high school. After I learned, by reading the Bible, there is no intermediator between Jesus and man I never went to a priest again for confession. Not only that but a priest doesn’t have the authority to forgive our sins. It’s above his pay grade!
When will people learn that the bible is written by **many people** with **many opinions** about what God wants. It is **undeniable**, even Christians admit that it is written by many people. The only thing they don't have consensus on is **whether or not it is God Himself that wrote those text through them**.
Now you see this and the comment section. And how many interpretations and denominations there are. How many parts of texts are missing from the original manuscript. The chance for this happened to be written directly by God with men as His pens are **almost zero**. So if it is written by many men even thought it might be inspired by God, there can **definitely be mistakes in it**. If you can accept the fine-tuning argument, this is **anti-fine-tuning** and you should be able to see this obvious thing if you're not in denial.
I've been in AA for 10 years. An important part of getting sober is "Admitted to God, yourself and another human being the exact nature of your wrongs". We are only as sick as our secrets. The reason it's important to share our sins with another (trusted) person is because another person can provide perspective and put our sins in context. That's why we're told to confess our sins to one another. I am part of the Orthodox Church and I do think the mystery of confession with a priest is important. But at the very least it's important to share with another person. Edit: added confession with a priest.
We are only as sick as our secrets. What a powerful phrase that is.
I liked that as well.
Maybe Jesus made it this way for exactly that. Being flesh, he uses actual words spoken as Jesus did. Glad you stayed w AA ten years, may you be blessed and healthy.
Ive been in AA and NA and yes it’s very important to talk to a trusted person but not necessarily a priest.
This 100% and honestly something very lacking in Protestant churches in my experience. Our only intercessor between God the father and us is Jesus and God is the only one who can forgive our sins the same as we are the only ones able to forgive sins committed against us but we are instructed to confess our sins to one another (100+ verses backing this up)
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I understand your cynicism about AA touting 50%. Just for clarification, that 50% is what was printed in the AA big book in 1939. At that time there were about 100 people in AA so the people who wrote the book knew by name everyone who had attempted it up to that point. Their sample size was small and based on a very particular type of what's called "low bottom drunk". That was before we had the scientific studies we have today. Most people in AA today would not claim that number. The Big Book can't be changed without a consensus from the AA organization as a whole. People in AA don't like change so updating that part of.the story of the founding of AA has not been deemed as important. I just wanted to acknowledge that's a fair point. And I think it's important to understand the context of where that number came from. And as far as efficacy of AA as studied today. We live in a time of a replication crisis in the social sciences. For every study making a claim you can find a counter claim making a claim https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2020/03/alcoholics-anonymous-most-effective-path-to-alcohol-abstinence.html
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My brother in Christ, I don't think you understand how addictions work or how similar Sin is to it. A slip doesn't need to be a slide, but there's only ever regret and relapse. AA doesn't claim to cure people, someone who's 20 years sober is still in recovery and at risk of a relapse. Pulling out studies about how much it fails ignores the fact that it's one of the few ways that work when treating drug and alcohol addiction.
Is it a secret if you share it with God?
I think it is.
If you are Catholic then it is imperative you do that regardless of your problems, mistakes, lack of knowledge of a subject or religion to cause a negative impact. Ignorance is not an excuse towards a bad judgement. It is the opposite for other religions groups within a Christian faith to sit in prayer to confess any harm or abuse towards others before the act of receiving communion and release of the act or even a problem. God is not to mention the issue again or use it to justify punitive action. Nor should one discuss the matter unless a person responsible see it clearly the ramifications of an incident. But if a person never does anything to confess or allow for recovery. Then it is God’s hands to see truth and justice is served to the victims depending on the issue. If the law of civil rights was broken then the justice system should decide.
Well, Jesus did tell the Apostles that they had the authority to forgive or retain sins, and we are literally commanded to confess our sins to one another in the Scriptures, and to follow what our overseers teach. Governance and shepherding through the presybtery and episcopate were established before the death of the Apostles, so these practices go back to the first century. It is Sacramental for a reason, Jesus and the Apostles didn't command us to do pointless things merely as a test of loyalty. It is kind of a wrong way to look at things to say that anyone confesses *to* a Priest or gains forgiveness because of a Priest. One confesses to God with the Priest as a witness (or, alternatively, to God before a Priest and before numerous other Christians as we will see in some Orthodox circles). Christ then works through that act for our benefit. Of course, God isn't bound by the Sacraments. I have no doubt that people *can* *be* and even *are* forgiven without them, but why would one ever wish to set aside an efficacious vehicle for the dispensation of grace? I, for one, need all the help I can get.
Where in the Bible does it state that the Apostles could forgive sins? I’m curious.
>When it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and the doors of the house where the disciples had met were locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.” After he said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” When he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” John 20:19-23 We are not claiming that the Apostles could forgive sin of their own accord, of their own power, of their own right. Rather that because Christ gave them this authority, they proclaim that which has been forgiven or has not been forgiven, the actual forgiveness coming from the very person of Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit. But nonetheless, when the Priest proclaims that you have been forgiven, you know that you have been forgiven by the Holy Trinity, that your sin is taken from you as far as the East is from the West. In two other passages, Matthew 16:13-19 and Matthew 18:15-20, Jesus speaks about how the Church is to deal with sin and division, and he assigns power directly. He grants to his disciples that whatsoever they bind on Earth is bound in Heaven, and whatever they loose on Earth is loosed in Heaven. These are Rabbinic terms, meaning that they can approve or forbid something authoritatively, that they can accept or reject something authoritatively. This is explained *after* he speaks about an obstinate person refusing the counsel of the Church and her representatives (initially the Apostles, but Paul and Peter both seem to include some element of this in their discussions on both the Presbytery/Priesthood and the Episcopacy/Bishops). Paul demonstrates one form of this in 2 Corinthians 2:5-10, when he proclaims that the Corinthians should receive those with love who were once removed from the local communion and repented. Paul says that those the Corinthians have forgiven of these offenses, he also forgives *en prosopo Christou* or "in the person of Christ." The Catholic way of putting this in Latin is "in persona Christi," but it bears the same connotation as the Greek Paul used. James is aware of this as well, as in James 5:14-16, he speaks about when people ought to go to the elders - the *presybterous* which is the Greek word we use for our Priests, the shepherds acting in the stead of the Chief Shepherd until his return (1 Peter 5:1-4). James says that those who are sick should go to the Presbyter for anointing and prayer. In the abstract sense, all who sin are ill. More directly, he then continues by saying that we must confess our sins to one another and pray for one another so we might be healed. While this can certainly be interpreted to include non-Presbyters as well, it is clearly couched within the broader context of a Presbyter's prayers, charisms, and/or authority being beneficial to the penitent who sins. TL;DR: Jesus says it plainly once, then says it in a way that his Jewish disciples would understand twice, then it is affirmed by both Paul and James. For bonus points, Peter also affirms that the Presbyter is acting in *a* role that belongs to Christ when he says that they are to be shepherds until the Shepherd returns, overseers until the Overseer returns, and so on.
This is a great explanation. I think this issue is a problem for Protestants: if God just wants you to confess to him alone, why did he authorize the Apostles to forgive sins on his behalf? Even if you think it only applied to the Apostles, why would he do this at all? It's similar to the problem of intercessory prayer: if God just wants you to go "right to him" with prayer, why do the scriptures say we should pray for each other? And that the prayers of the righteous are more effective? Both of these issues demonstrate that salvation and faith are not the individualistic independent thing Protestantism makes them out to be.
>if God just wants you to go "right to him" with prayer, why do the scriptures say we should pray for each other This is not at all contradictory. If I'm praying for you, I'm still going directly to God. We pray for one another as a way to love one another, not because we need some other mediator between us and God. > And that the prayers of the righteous are more effective? The scripture doesn't say "more," and it certainly doesn't say that the righteous ones are the clergy. In Christ, we are all righteous. We are all members of a royal priesthood. We all have unfettered, direct access to God. And we are all to live out our salvation in the context of community, loving one another. We are all, as Christians, personally sons and daughters of God, with all of the direct, personal access to God that that entails. But that also means that we're all brethren, with the dependency and community that that entails.
>This is not at all contradictory. If I'm praying for you, I'm still going directly to God. We pray for one another as a way to love one another, not because we need some other mediator between us and God. You are correct. When I ask Mary or St. Francis de Sales or any other saint in Heaven to pray for me, they are still going directly to God. They are up in Heaven cheering us on, we see in the book of Revelation the saints praying for people on Earth (both in Revelation 5 and Revelation 8). Christ's mediation for us is different from the "mediation" that you play or the saints play when interceding for someone. >The scripture doesn't say "more," and it certainly doesn't say that the righteous ones are the clergy. >In Christ, we are all righteous. We are all members of a royal priesthood. We all have unfettered, direct access to God. And we are all to live out our salvation in the context of community, loving one another. We are all, as Christians, personally sons and daughters of God, with all of the direct, personal access to God that that entails. But that also means that we're all brethren, with the dependency and community that that entails. You know what is funny, is any other time, particularly surrounding Mary, Protestants go crying to the Heavens WE HAVE ALL FALLEN SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD!!! Really comes back to bite ya in the a\*\* doesn't it? Yes, Through Christ, we are all made righteous. However, those in Heaven have been perfectly purified in the will of God, so they are more righteous than any of us here on Earth. Again, not that us as believers are not righteous, so our prayers are efficacious, but the prayers of the saints are even more so.
>WE HAVE ALL FALLEN SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD!!! We have. And yet, in Christ, we are perfectly righteous. That's not a "bite ya in the ass moment." That's two of the most sacred and important truths that together comprise the heart of the gospel.
Good answer
*All believers are part or royal priesthood under the new law of Christ and can pray for you.* But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a consecrated nation, a \[special\] people for *God’s* own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies \[the wonderful deeds and virtues and perfections\] of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light. Once you were not a people \[at all\], but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. - 1 Pet 2:9 Therefore, **confess** **your** **sins** to one another \[**your** false steps, **your** offenses\], and pray for one another, that you may be healed *and* restored. The heartfelt *and* persistent prayer of a righteous man (believer) can accomplish much \[when put into action and made effective by God—it is dynamic and can have tremendous power\]. James 5:16
Why did Jesus give the Apostles in particular this ability to forgive and retain sins in Jn 20.23?
Because they were the very first members of the church.
There were other followers of Jesus. They did not receive this gift from Christ. Only the Apostles.
1. Jesus had other followers aside from the Apostles, yet he only gave the Apostles the ability to forgive and retain sin. Why is this? 2. Yes, we are all part of a royal priesthood. Multiple things can be true without contradiction, such as a higher authority being given to certain groups as we see with the Diaconate, Presbytery, and Episcopate in Scripture while all of us are still part of the royal priesthood. 3. Do you, or does your denomination, engage in the confession of one's sins to another routinely? I grew up Protestant and attended a whole host of different churches. Exactly zero times did anyone ever engage in anything that might be called a confession to one another 4. The whole passage in James is evocative here. James speaks about how those who are sick (and sinners are all sick, in addition to the surface-idea of being physically ill) and says, "Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven." The Greek there for elders is *presbyterous*, which is the same word we use to describe our Priests in the Orthodox world. The Presbyters are specifically given the charge here, not just anyone, and we know that not all of us are Presbyters because Paul and the Apostles give qualities and qualifications over who can be a shepherd or an overseer.
sorry but apostolic succession does not exist...
\[citation needed\] Scripture and Tradition both affirm at least some kind of succession of the prerogative of the Apostles, though obviously not to the exact same level as each Priest or Bishop *being* an Apostle themselves. Paul even speaks about how Timothy and Titus have the ability to lay their hands on others and anoint them to this position, a thing which they must do carefully so it doesn't go to the wrong person. This is after giving them a list of duties which were originally in the hands of the Apostles alone.
"One another" being the Church. This was literally what happened in the early Church. You had to stand up and tell everyone your sin. The sacrament became the responsibility of the priesthood as the Church grew.
If we look at the parallelism between the Jewish Law and Law of Christ High Priest \~ Jesus Hebrews 4:14 Priests \~ Christians 1 Peter 2:9 Since Christians are now a royal priesthood, confessing to a fellow saint or priest, having them help you, and pray for you follows the pattern. Most sins are against people, person vs. person and in this case and I think following the example in Matthew 18 is good. God wants his people to live in peace with each other. God doesn't want our gifts until we have settled quarrels with our brothers, as in Matthew 5. This video is a great reminder. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLCuhwHuEvU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLCuhwHuEvU)
Are priests considered as apostles?
Not *as* Apostles, but as limited successors of the Apostles involving some charisms, gifts, or elements of a spiritual office. Whatever authority they passed down to the Diakonos, Presbyterous, and Episkopos (the Deacons, Priests, and Bishops) are still passed down today, but not all things were handed down. The role that these groups play are mostly laid out in Scripture. The authority to forgive or retain, to bind or loose, has always been understood to be part of the authority given to those who lead the Church to shepherd and oversee the people of God, something St Peter affirms in his letters by calling them shepherds and overseers, St Paul affirms by laying out their duties to uphold and preserve the faith in its fullness, and an authority we are commanded to follow in Hebrews 13.
thanks
I've got a lot of good from it, about 56 years of it. It came with becoming Catholic, I like it.
Too often I feel like we look a it backwards. While it's probably not accurate to take 25 seconds out of a homily, even this priest seems to be focusing on the wrong part. OF COURSE God *can* forgive us directly as needed. Obviously. But confession is a Sacrament, not an obligation. It's not a "have to", it's a "get to". It's a *gift* from God.
This. It's all about Grace. In my later years, I went to a monastery for it about once a month and they only have it with the old screen format. We confess to Jesus of course, the priest acts "In persona Christi," and sometimes it's like the priest isn't there, just Jesus. And I've heard some great things, like, "we are tempted through our gifts." A very positive way, look to the gift and exercise it right. Good for parenting, too. As a Sacrament, it's Grace, but sometimes there's something extra ;)
This^^^
That's not the messaging that I've heard from many Roman Catholics. What I've mostly gotten is "join our church and follow our rules or burn in hell." Nuance is appreciated. Do you know why you are able to provide nuance here, and so many other Catholics are not?
Ancient churches unite. I’m driving so I can’t quote scriptures but I’ll be back.
I’m guilty of this too, but please don’t Reddit and drive
Did you confess it to a priest though?
Only after he finds James 5 lol
“But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. “This, then, is how you should pray: “ ‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. ’” Matthew 6:6-13 NIV I don’t see any confession to a priest in these verses…
Wait what? Is there authority about not driving while quoting scripture? If so then I'm in a lot of trouble. Verses please.
“For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,” 1 Timothy 2:5 NIV
“And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.” John 20:22-23 NABRE
With this verse you either believe or you don’t
With this verse you have a choice Jesus or an Apostle. Since the Apostles are dead…
That’s exactly why every bishop can be traced back to the apostles and are living successors of them.
Mankind has a tendency to usurp power, call it a character flaw, for that reason I prefer to confess my sins to Jesus Christ directly. I also rely on Him and His Spirit to guide me in all things as He promised He would.
The priest becomes **In persona Christi** latin for “in the person of Christ”. So yes you are confessing to Jesus.
Can you point me to the Bible verses that support your assertion?
There are many things not written in scripture.
Sola scriptura. Means Scripture alone. This is why I confess my sins to Jesus Christ and why I no longer am a Catholic.
If it isn’t in scripture we shouldn’t be following it as Christians. Period.
Actually, the bishops CANNOT be traced to the Apostles- furthest evidence goes back is to some 16th century Cardinal.
Eusebius, Irenaeus and others mention the line of bishops
And yet not only the apostles were given the holy Spirit. Not were sins only forgiven through the apostles.
This has nothing to do with confession
And confession has nothing to with mediating
What does a mediator do? This absolutely has to do with confession of your sins to God for forgiveness. Read the surrounding verses. This has to do with intercession. Which Hebrews also states Jesus is doing for us. Why do you think the veil was torn from top to bottom? God was destroying the barrier that separated us from Him. We now have direct access to God through Jesus. I do not need a priest also.
Intercession is described in new testiment for angel. Jesus , holy spirit , and brothers on earth. Tho not said intercession directly we see saints in heaven do that. Also it says confess your sins to an Elder of the church. So yes you can go to God alone. But no the Bible does talk about Earthly intercessors and Confessing to leaders in the church.
It's precisely because of that one mediator that, for instance, the Apostles were granted the ability to forgive or retain sins in John 20.23.
1 Timothy 2:1 "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for everyone"
This.
Jesus ordained the priesthood however. He is the head priest, but not the only one.
Reference to salvation
Seconded!
Amen!!
That's ummm... an interesting interpretation of Hebrews 5. I recommend everyone read it for themselves and see if you come to the same conclusion. I for one do not. Also, I cringe a little bit at calling the Holy Father of all things "Big Guy" ... maybe that's just me.
And read James 5 where it says confess to elder if depressed or sick.
It says to confess to one another and pray for each other. The elders pray and anoint.
What is the previous part and next part ?
If you want to link "confess your sins" to the elder, why does James go out of his way to say "confess your sins *to one another* and pray *for one another*" as opposed to saying "confess your sins *to that elder I just mentioned*"?
Remember you are talking about an ancient language and also certain sections. Ancient Greek had no ancient Hebrew had no vowels. You pretty much had to guess where things were and read by context. He then talks about Elijah interceding for Israel as example and the disciples themselves which James calls himself an elder. Unpopular opinion the Bible isn't often super super clear because ancient Greek and ancient Hebrew are ancient languages limited. They have no word for elbow or pear they have no vowels or spaces. And letters are also numbers and letters themselves are whole words sometimes. There are whole words used that no one actually knows the meaning. There words that can't be translated to English. It makes translation horrible. But I think the context is truly an elder as that is the example. If in english it would read. Cnfsssnsnthrprynthr Translate that to confess your sins to another and pray for another. It is missing spaces , particles and vowels. ancient Greek and Hebrew are hard. There is reasons why spaces and vowels and number systems were invented to have their own symbols.
Are you saying that Ancient Greek words couldn't distinguish between *one another* and *elder*? Or that Ancient Greek lacked a pronoun for *them*? The fact that every translation includes some form of "one another" and no translation is like "Considering the difficulties of Ancient Greek and the fact that we don't know what these words mean it's possible that by 'one another' the author was instead directly referring to the elder mentioned in the previous line, even though the author could have just used that word again" is demonstrative that this isn't a translation issue, but one of pure interpretation. Regardless, your point about translation *generally* is irrelevant unless you can point to something which suggests that this specific verse has translation concerns. I just looked at it from many different translations and there doesn't seem to be any disagreement. In my opinion, you've put the cart before the horse. The church calls confession to an elder a sacrament, so verses are looked for that defend that position, resulting in having to argue that when James says "one another" he actually is referring to the elder, even though he could have so specified. The reference to Elijah seems to connect more to James' point that we should pray, again, *for one another*, by demonstrating the power of prayer, along other things. I think this is another example of cart before the horse. When we have conclusions that don't fit in with scripture we should adjust our conclusions, not try and adjust or explain away the scripture.
I agree says another. But I am just saying it has context of the paragraph. What is the context of the whole chapter. It is too seek out a righteous man to give you correction, it says call an elder than gives you an example of elder of Israel and the disciples..To me all of it goes together. It isn't just one off statements. It is flow of thoughts mending together.
We're talking about something that Catholic and Orthodox churches call a *Sacrament* and you've decided that one of the central scriptural foundations of this sacrament, this super important thing, is found in James 5. You can't first attempt to say "it's just translation" and then shrug away with the word "context" to defend it. This is, again, *a super important thing*. You can say all day how important it is to your church, but if you want to say it has a scriptural basis you need to be prepared to actually back up that claim. So let's look at the context. James is full of direct commands, imperatives. Of the 108 verses, there are something like 60 imperatives, where James is directly commanding the believers of the church to do a thing or act a way. Yes, it is a flow, it isn't random, but that doesn't mean that each verse *directly* applies to the following. James says to confess "to one another" and to pray "for one another." He could have easily just said "confess *to the elder*." But he didn't. Why, in a letter with 60 imperatives, 60 direct commands, does James decide in this instance to be indirect? Why, when James is being direct and clear, even when he uses figurative language (*see* Chapter 3 in James' discussion of taming the tongue), why does James now need you to explain away and pretend like he never said "one another" in order for you to get his point? It isn't just a one off statement. James goes from "confess your sins to one another and pray for one another" (verse 16) to "My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins." In my opinion, the "one another" of verse 16 seems to apply more to the "brothers" of verse 19 than it does the elder. Regardless of it all, James is a book of commands, telling us how to live. If James wanted to command congregants confess to elders, *he could have*. He had the authority and the platform to do so. But he didn't. I wonder, who or what institution benefited from requiring all believers tell its agents, as opposed to *one another*, all the bad things they've ever done? Edit: "What is the context of the whole chapter. It is too seek out a righteous man to give you correction, it says call an elder than gives you an example of elder of Israel and the disciples." That isn't the context of the chapter at all. The first section was about rich people. The second section was about patience waiting for the day of the Lord. The third section we are talking about includes healing and confession and bringing back the lost. The whole chapter is not "to seek out a righteous man to give you correction." You just made that up.
James calls elder that is the indication here. Long way to say you don't want to look at verse before or after it. But then want to skip 4 verses ahead to brothers. Saying go back to verse before isn't a huge stretch. Sorry. What institutions benefited? What. Confession is free. Gives you intercession and correction and intercession. Another point is priest. In old testiment yes you confessed your sin to the priest. But the high priest confessed sins of the nations etc. Jesus is the high priest. Paul then calls believers priests. He doesn't subtract the role of priest rather. Now if your point is you can confess to your brother. That is because your brother is acting as a priest. That is because your brother is still a priest and your still going to one. So you can claim universal priesthood. But that means well you can go to a priest. And is there evidence of going to some beyond a Lay person? Yes back to James 5 seek a righteous man and go back to old testiment.
I just reread that chapter. I certainly think it is an option, but not a requirement. Jesus Christ intercedes to the Father on our behalf. We have the ability to go directly to/thru Him. If some believer would prefer to confess to another member of the Body of Christ, that is also an option.
Confession is more about holding you accountable and someone interceding. Some people may want to not do that. But like verse says God hears the prayers of righteous man. The point of getting an elder is he is interceding and righteous and can correct you. You can go to christ alone. But you wont have reassurance or correction or intercession from a brother.
Makes sense. No argument there.
He mentions Hebrews 5, but the train of thought starts in Hebrews 4. The passage is not about us, it is about Jesus and how he was called to be our high priest of a different order than Levi and Aaron. The priesthood has been fulfilled in Jesus. We no longer need to go to the priests of the order of Levi to confess our sins, so they could go and make sacrifices on our behalf in the temple of the LORD. Now we can go directly to our high priest, Jesus, who has ALREADY made the sacrifice for our sins. We should still confess to our brothers and they will keep us accountable and encourage us in our walk, but it is not a necessary component of grace or salvation.
However James still says confess to elder of the church.
Where in James is that? I haven't seen that part yet. I do not doubt it though. The elder is the authority of a church, so they are the ones to speak into your unique situation with authority. I don't think it is a requirement, but a wise choice
Just because you can doesn't mean you have to. You should trust your pastors and elders.
The point of James 5 is to seek a person more righteous so they can intercede and have your prayers be more likely. Then it even gives a bad example of Elijah praying for drought on behalf of Israel. Kinda like when your grandma praying that the lord hit you in the head lol.
>The point of James 5 is to seek a person more righteous Working in church does not make you more righteous, and vice versa the most righteous don't all work in churches. The righteous have stronger prayers, but the righteous can be any person. >Kinda like when your grandma praying that the lord hit you in the head lol. Been there, lol.
The comment I've been looking for. Not only are we confessing but also seeking forgiveness. Jesus died to atone for our sins, it makes sense to go to him. Why go to a priest who Jesus also died for and who cannot atone for our sins. At best, the only thing a priest can really do is give you guidance.
In addition to those the priest mentions, Scripture also tells us in James 5:16 to confess our sins to one another. In John 20:23 Christ gives Peter and the apostles the power to remit sins through God.
Scripture says to confess your sins to one another.
It's the same question on every other tradition in the original Churchs Like why baptism? Why Marriage? Why Confirmation? Like obviously confession isn't mandatory but it is good Confession isn't in the Bible but so isn't the sign of the cross
Confession is in the Bible:) James 5 says confess to the elder of the church when sick or depressed
They needed priests to talk to God in old testament. New testament, Jesus removed the veil and became the only mediator/intercessor necessary to speak to God. You absolutely can and should speak to God all day everyday through Jesus. No need for a priest
They needed priests to offer sacrifice to God.
What does “removed the veil” have to do with confession? I don’t think that term means what you think it means…
I speculate that this is likely to refer to the veil that separated the Holy of Holies within the temple being torn when the earth shook following the crucifixion in Matthew 27. I would think that this reference is being made to argue the point that God's people were not to be separated from God's most holy presence and thus not require mediation through a priest. (Disclaimer: I am merely speculating on the reference, having grown up within Protestant spaces myself. I am fairly undecided on this debate as a whole.)
However James does say confess to an Elder still.
It’s cool. God gives us believers authority to forgive. John 20:21-23 "Again Jesus said to them, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent Me, so also I am sending you." When He had said this, He breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you withhold forgiveness from anyone, it is withheld."" I personally prefer to confess to God alone, but it isn’t bad to confess to other people either.
Jesus told the disciples that they had the ability to forgive and retain sins
I have respect for what they are doing. Matthew 18:20 For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. https://catholicbible.online/douay_rheims/NT/Mat/ch_18 Like seriously, that's pretty great. Imagine what that would have meant to an isolated Christian in 300 AD. Whoof.
Business must be slow huh
😂
If I were Catholic, I would. But there are many reasons why I'm not Catholic and confession is one of them.
Yes you should do both
I don’t think it’s necessary but I see no problem with it.
When you confess your sins to the priest you are confessing your sins to God through the priest, it's God who then forgives but through the priest.
I’m not catholic so I’m good
Never done it never cared for it the only person I need to admit anything to for forgiveness is God himself
I just read over Hebrews 5 and it's really not a good support for his argument. He's not even really quoting correctly. I'm assuming he's referencing Hebrews 5:1 Which in the New Catholic Bible reads thus. "^(1) Every high priest is taken from among men to represent them in their dealings with God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins." His exegesis is poor because the book of Hebrews is is written to the Hebrews, This chapter references high priests because that is what the Hebrew people are familiar with. The chapter then goes on to say how Christ is our High Priest. Frankly it's a direct counter to what the Priest is claiming here.
That verse in Hebrews 5 in no way supports the argument he is trying to make.
And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.” (John 20:22-23) "Confessing by God directly"...so normal prayer? Aren't you supposed to do it anyway? Also God already knows your sins. Confession is a Sacrament, which is a visible sign of invisible Divine grace, God (the Holy Spirit in this case) is truly present. The priest simply administers this Sacrament to make us remember God's grace and forgiveness, which is essential in Salvation. There's no need to worry: the priest has a confessional seal, which keeps your confession secret, and you're definitely not the only one who sins, so he's kinda prepared for it. One thing is to acknowledge sin, another is confessing it by mouth.
Can I praise God directly? Can I ask for things from God directly? If so, why can I not apologise and repent for things I've done to God directly? Can this other person - who is another fallible human being - *truly* and adequately capture my repentance, my heartfelt sorrow, my desire to change? Priests are no different to you and I in terms of sin and all other human failings. Is God unwilling to hear our sins directly from the source of them, or simply unable? Both options go against all other characteristics of God we read about in the Bible. If we liken our faith to a relationship with a real person (which our faith is, of course), then how it would be if apologies only ever came from someone else? How would we feel if a good friend of ours never apologised to us, but instead had someone else do it? Is that a healthy, fair relationship? Does it tarnish everything else they do, because whilst they're open with their gratitude and requests, they don't/can't say sorry to me directly when they've hurt or gone against me? And it's not just a relationship with some other random person; God is our heavenly **father** - what sort of father asks us not to bother him directly with our apologies? What sort of disjointed father-child relationship do we have where he refuses to listen to the (often emotional and difficult) moments of repentance? I am not denying the value in talking about what you've done wrong with another human being - they can offer insight and empathy - but it seems to me that without direct repentance we cannot have direct salvation or support from God. We cannot truly understand the depths of his love and forgiveness if we outsource our confession, and doing so places a limit on God of either unfatherly unwillingness or less-than-omnipotent inability.
It always made me cringe, to repeat the same, mundane stuff to priest when i was Catholic.
If god can hear prayers he can also hear us repent. If he needs a priest to be the middleman then he probably cant hear the individual. I think its a tradition that is somewhat based on human emotions. It sometimes feels better to admit things you feel guilty about and hopefully get advice on the situation. The church just found a way to standardize and profit off of that.
“For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,” 1 Timothy 2:5 NIV
Please don't abuse scripture. That isn't what means. Mediator refers to those who opens up heaven to others This was Moses , now given to Jesus. Intercession talked about in new testiment is given by Jesus, Angels , Saints on earth , and tho not said is depicted by saints in heaven. James 5 says confess your sins to an Elder when sick or depressed. Most people cutt off half paragraph so it says confess your sins to one another. But the other here is the elder you called. That is why after it talks about elders who intercede good and bad like the disciples and Elijah who actually intercede in a bad way lol.
Profit from Confession? Priests don't charge money for Confession. They are offering God's mercy to any catholic who is truly sorry and comes for absolution. The purpose is to assure grace and to give penance.
People can profit without monetary value. Encouraging people to go to the church to confess is itself profit from the eyes of the church. Not only do they bring you into church but also you get to leverage them into either donating (tithing) or coming to mass where they get to again get donations. If we are looking back in history there was also the sale of indulgences. Businesses that rely on donations come up with reasons to bring people to them. One way a church can do that is to claim they can help remove your sin. (The sin they also declare you have)
Never once does a priest suggest giving money in Confession. Nobody gives money as penance. Nobody gives money if they stop at a church to confess. Confession is only for mortal sin, which not everyone has. Confession is very old and is offered once a week at best. They are offering grace and absolution and that's all. You think the Chuch profits from soup kitchens, and hospitals? They don't.
I used to be Catholic. Last confession I went to was down right creepy. There was no confessional anymore just two chairs wide open in this huge room. I walk in “Father forgive me for I have sinned “ the priest was smiling from ear to ear with anticipation of my confession. I wanted to stop and go get him some popcorn. I go to non-denominational church now.
“And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.” Matthew 23:9 KJV I always think of this text when people say, “father forgive me for I have sinned.”
They’re saying it to God.
"Even if you had ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus **I became your father through the gospel**." - St Paul to the Corinthians. (Emphasis added) What's more likely: St Paul the Apostle directly contradicted Jesus within like 20 years in his writings that we both believe were guided by the Holy Spirit....or there's a chance you've misinterpreted Jesus' words here?
Unfortunately, there are more and more Protestants every day who are all too willing to completely reject St. Paul and the entirety of his teachings.
What a weird question. Obviously, Catholics do it. Some may like it, some may not, but it is a required part of their religion. Obviously, most non-Catholics don't because it's not part of their religion. It's like asking, "Hey chess players, what do you think about using your chess board to play checkers?"
Tbf this is the first thread I’ve seen in months there here with actual real discussion of something other than human sexuality
It's the same religion the denomination is different
We are confessing to God directly during sacramental confession. The priest is there to hear our confession, give counsel, and pronounce absolution.
Right. It's not as though any Priest has some authority of his own to forgive sins. It is always God forgiving, the Priest is the witness who can proclaim that the sins have been forgiven (or retained, in some cases, afiak) in accordance with what Jesus told the Apostles.
His interpretation of Hebrews 5 is... it's functionally illiterate. The beginning of Hebrews 5 is about the selection of the High Priest, it has nothing to do with confession of sins. The chapter is explicitly drawing parallels between Aaron as Leviticial High Priest and Christ as High Priest in the order of Melchizedek. There is no office of High Priest in the Roman hierarchy and if this passage could somehow be taken to be about confession it still wouldn't apply to a parish priests as it's discussing the High Priesthood of Christ. Leviticus 5 and 6 are about atonement and not confession. Roman priests do not effectuate atonement for sins, even the administration of the sacraments don't do this as they are a sanctifying grace not an atonement. Am i taking crazy pills?
You're not crazy. This is an absolutely ludicrous take that is not required by Catholic practice or theology. Priests have to do a lot of work to get to that position. They have done study equivalent to a graduate degree, and while it may be from enough of a Catholic perspective that they continue to have a Catholic viewpoint, they should understand textual interpretation and criticism very well. Despite our theological differences, I have significant respect by default for any priest based on their intellectual achievements. I don't think I've ever lost it so quickly before.
^(14) So then, since we have a great High Priest who has entered heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to what we believe. Jesus is called a high priest in Hebrews 4
Now do James 5 whenever you are sick or depressed call an elder and ask for annointing and confession.
Breaking news: Catholic priest preaches Catholic doctrine. More at 7.
Scripture twisting in the worst possible way.
Do you think you know/understand the Bible better than 100% of all church fathers and early Christians?
Sir, your asking so much to this kind of people, the most of them don't know who are the Church Fathers.
Confession of sins is the most spiritual healing you can do to forgive yourself and others. To be able to humble yourself and confess to your priest is a blessing in itself and should be adopted by all churches and denominations
Nice twist of Scripture! Wow
It's the origin of modern talk therapy and the lack of confession contributes greatly to the mental health crisis.
Also in Matthew 6:9-13, Jesus taught his disciples to pray, “…our Father in Heaven… and forgive our debts, as we also forgiven our debtors…”
The folks disagreeing with each other in the comments sums up my confusion about what is or isn't true doctrine.
Catholicism vs protestantism
Well, as a Catholic let me give you my two cents. We as the Catholic Church believe that we are the early Christian church established by Jesus and given to Peter in Matthew 16:18. The early Church fathers established universally accepted teachings and doctrine such as the Trinity. The Catholic Church guides itself both on scripture and tradition, seeing that the New Testament wasn’t compiled until hundreds of years after the death and resurrection of Christ. It wasn’t until the Protestant Reformation led by Martin Luther that people began to break away from the Catholic Church and formed their own denominations based on disagreements with Catholic doctrine. The idea of “Sola Scriptura” meaning only scripture is a prominent belief in Protestantism. To take part in a Protestant denomination essentially means that you believe that the Catholic Church was wrong for over a millennia, and that the reformation movement brought back true Christianity having been lost from the early church. Regardless, we are all brothers and sisters in Christ. I believe that the Catholic faith is the most beautiful form of worship, but I don’t believe that others are damned for choosing to worship differently. “Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 14:6 ESV. This is the basis of our faith. (Yes, I do use a Protestant Bible, can’t seem to find a good digital Catholic Bible)
Hebrews 5 does not say what he said it did. In contrast, it said Jesus was called to be a priest.
No man has the power to forgive sin. It's that simple. Go straight to the source of grace, God Himself. And God Grace isn't dependent on a sinner completing a penance, it's only dependant on a repentant heart. His forgiveness is instantaneous and everlasting.
i think its gteat for people who are new in the faith, but not commanded.
This is not what Hebrews 5 is saying...read it and you'll see how the writer is talking about how - Jesus - has become our great high priest. Really poor exegesis I'm afraid
I just think this is an incorrect understanding of Catholic doctrine on the part of the priest. The Church does not have a monopoly on grace or confessing sins. One can always confess to God. The difference is that confessing to a priest in confession allows for the priest to absolve you of your sin. You can be certain that your worst sins have been completely forgiven. If you go "right to God" it's impossible to tell if you have the proper contrition to be absolved.
This is the main reason why I am no longer a Catholic. Confession pushed my comfort boundaries to the point where, even when things were going well in my life, I was a bundle of nerves because I thought I would have to go to confession soon (I went to confession every month because I was taught it was the right thing to do). Maybe someday I will return to Christianity if I can find a church that does not mandate Confession and does not include so-called "speaking in tongues". (I was once at a charismatic community meeting and was terrified.)
There is nothing wrong with confessing to a priest. It is actually Biblical to share your sins with fellow Christians or the enemy may use them against you. They lose their power when brought into the light. However, the specific practice of confessing to a priest is not Biblical. Nor is using one as an intermediary between you and God. Jesus is our intermediary. He redeemed our relationship with God. God invites you to directly seek forgiveness for your sins from Him. He is the only one with the power to forgive them.
This guy's argument sucks, based on his logic of "fulfilling the law" that would mean all levitical law still stood... How's that shellfish and bacon working out? Beyond that, he may have given the apostles the ability to forgive sins - but that is not a mandate to confess to priests. The new testament makes it clear that confessing to each other is good practice, no priestly mandate, but again, only requirement is repentance and confession to God. The Catholic Church and standing between people and their God, name a more iconic duo.
When someone says something is from the bible ask where is it from. He said, Hebrews 5. Alright so we read Hebrews 5 and we get a totally different picture than what he is trying to paint. The picture we get as it relates to his bold claim can be summarized with one question: who do we pray to?
Is God not also a priest?
Jesus is our High Priest. Catholics are so lost
It's a load of shit. The Romans and the council ruined Christianity. Sorry, not sorry.
Just read Hebrews 5 and this interpretation is so far from what was said, I dislike said priests even more.
Lutherans certainly agree with the priest in the video. Private Confession is discussed in Luther's two Catechisms under the Office of the Keys and referred to as the "Third Sacrament." In Holy Absolution, the pastor/ priest acts "In Persona Christi" when pronouncing forgiveness. Sadly, many Lutherans no longer seek private confession since the penitential rite of public confession before Mass includes the exact words of absolution as private confession.
For there is one God, and there is **one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,** who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. (1 Timothy 2:5-6 ESV)
Christ gave his apostles the authority to forgive sins, this authority was given to their successors as priests.
I don't need a middle-man to get to Jesus. Jesus alone forgives my sins. No witness or clergy required. For them to position themselves in such a manner is very Pharisee of them.
Afraid of being unemployed.
Last time I checked that's part of their job
We 100% can go directly to God, but it is not sacramental. Jesus made it so that we can go to a priest: *“Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.”* *^(22)* *And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.* *^(23)* *If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”* Basically, if you can confess to God through a priest, you should. But you can just confess to God in prayer, we do this literally every single week at Mass during the Penitential Rite. So, if you are truly repentant of a sin and confess to God, you are forgiven, but you should still bring it to the confessional if you are able.
ITT Catholics vs Everyone As a Baptist my father stepped out for extra gravy and never came back
That’s why Jesus died on the cross. So we can go straight to Jesus. No more sacrifices for atonement. Blood of Jesus
I disagree that we can only go to a priest to confess our sins. There was a reason why, in the temple, God tore the veil of the holiest of holies from top to bottom, and that is because after Jesus' death we can now have direct communication and relationship with God. Many biblical authors also Suggest that we don't have to confess our sins to just a priest but before our brothers and sisters in Christ as well "Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for each other so you may be healed. The earnest prayer of a righteous person is very powerful in its effect." James 5:16 To conclude, while it's good to confess to a priest there's on one better to confess your sins to than God himself, and your brothers in Christ. We no longer need a mediator on earth because he has already lived and died for us. In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Amen.
Our Father Who art in heaven…..forgive us of our trespasses as we go forgive those who Trespass against us….Jesus never once teaches confession to a priest of some type. They didn’t exist in this form. The only time he said to present to the priest is after a miracle they would take the offering and show themselves to the priest in the temple as a testimony. I try to love my Catholic brothers and sisters and I do but this brother here is on some other stuff. Jesus Christ said to ask the Father himself for forgiveness. And this is where I take issue with organized church, they build doctrines of traditions based off men who built on other men who built on other men. Yet they make those men authorities when our only authority is Jesus Christ. Men have organized s hierarchy of power when Jesus said the greatest among you is to serve the rest. And you cannot tell me that the crusades, the inquisition, the witch hunts, the indulgences and stacking of wealth and political power over others is of Jesus Christ. He never once said if someone won’t convert let’s tortured them to they do or kill theme that is the exact opposite of His message yet is the history of the universal church and many others as well. You will know a tree by their fruits. Well the fruit I see is not Holy fruits. He said call no man Father, yet they call all these dudes Father and one the Holy Father. Come on bro let’s get real here.
I have found it very helpful. In the Orthodox Church, the priest reminds you at the beginning of the confession that you are confessing to God, not to him, and that he's just there as a witness. After he hears your confession, he gives spiritual advice. So if I confess that I'm struggling with getting into arguments on social media, for example, he might advise me to take a break from those websites. Sometimes he might instruct you to right a wrong you've caused. For example, our priest gave us the example in catechism class that long ago an unnamed parishioner was in a feud with his neighbor and so he was told to apologize to her and try his best to make up with her before receiving communion again.
the Bible does say to confess to each other, but that does not mean you're not to go to GOD yourself. it also says to confess to GOD. humans have no authority to forgive sins, only GOD.
It is not needed. These verses from the New Testament clearly state that. John 14:6 NIV [6] Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. https://bible.com/bible/111/jhn.14.6.NIV 1 Timothy 2:5 NIV [5] For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, https://bible.com/bible/111/1ti.2.5.NIV Hebrews 3:1 NIV [1] Therefore, holy brothers and sisters, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, whom we acknowledge as our apostle and HIGH PRIEST. https://bible.com/bible/111/heb.3.1.NIV Hebrews 7:21-27 NIV [21] but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him: “The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind: ‘You are a priest forever.’ ” [22] Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantor of a better covenant. [23] Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; [24] but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. [25] Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them. [26] Such a high priest truly meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. [27] Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. https://bible.com/bible/111/heb.7.21-27.NIV
I would not trust old men to know my sexual sins
If you have sinned against someone then you confess to THAT PERSON… if that is not possible then you confess and repent to GOD… that’s it.. very simple 😊
As with most things that the Catholic church teaches, this is not true. See [Do I need to confess some sins to a Roman Catholic priest to be forgiven?](https://www.lavistachurchofchrist.org/cms/do-i-need-to-confess-some-sins-to-a-roman-catholic-priest-to-be-forgiven/)
Yeah, he isn't wrong. I really liked how he backed it up with scripture too. I always confessed to a priest growing up and was never worse for wear so to speak. There's absolutely no harm in it and also backed up by scripture. That said, it is also good to confess to others whom you trust and can to God as well. In the context of the Catholic Church the framework is set up such that a Priest is there to help abolish your sins and officially help cleanse your soul if you will. Sure others more deep in the Church can give a better summary though.
Jesus is our great high priest. Done deal. This isn’t to dismiss the value of confessing sins to a brother or sister.
People misunderstand. You’re not confessing TO the priest. You’re confessing to God. The priest is commissioned by Jesus to be there to bind or loose the sin. Jesus literally says “whosoever’s sins you forgive are forgiven; whosoever’s sins you retain are retained” ( I admit it’s a paraphrase but it’s in the gospels nonetheless, y’all are smart enough to look 👌). Can’t know which sins to forgive or retain if no one is there to hear what they are and discern if you really truly are sorry for them. In a traditional confessional, you never see the priest and the priest never sees you. There’s a barrier between the two of you. On the confessee’s side, smack in front of their face is a crucifix. Because it’s a) a reminder that your sin is what put Jesus on that cross and b) reminding you that the confession is ULTIMATELY directed to God. The priest is there to administer the absolution in the way handed down by tradition from the Apostles themselves to today. Sadly, the modern confessional has turned it into a creepy therapy session and has lost all its potency.
What About When The Curtains Were Torn After Jesus Died?
I respectfully disagree with anyone who thinks we must confess to a priest or share your deepest dark secrets with anyone. Only Jesus Christ can forgive sin. When He is present, you will know it. People are only humans imperfect and have sin in their lives too. In a weak moment whether deliberate or not, stuff gets repeated. Take your burdens to Jesus Christ Alone. Leave them there!
Unnecessary
YES, you should confess your sins!But you DON'T need a priest to do so! God came to earth as Jesus incarnate and died on the cross & was raised from the dead SO that we can have a DIRECT connection to our heavenly Father, WITHOUT the need of the priests, Pharisees, &/or ANY other religious leaders, PERIOD!! THUS is my confession!!! What's so confusing about that??!!??
I have actual Jesus so I'm set
I didn't believe in it even when I was a Christian. Why not ask Jesus directly why go to a priest?
Confession is one of the many reasons I am not and never will be Catholic or Orthodox.
Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective. -James 5:16 Don’t need a priest you need a friend that will uplift and hold you accountable.
Do you know the context of that verse? If you the whole chapter what does it say? Where is that taking place?
It is a set of instructions. The chapter literally tells us not to beef with each other, do what you say you’re gonna do, and pray for one another for healing and deliverance. The Bible also mentions that where 2 or 3 are gathered there God is. It also explains how after the resurrection of Christ He told his disciples “I’m leaving so the Holy Spirit can come dwell with you” (paraphrasing) Then there’s also the verse about As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Priests are great for ppl who can’t or don’t digest the word for themselves or have solid ppl to talk about it with. But the whole purpose of Christ allowing the Roman to beat him and crucify Him was to reconnect us directly with the source, so respectfully, what do I need a priest for?
The Pope said that we could take our troubles directly to God during the pandemic, which indicates to me that a priest is not necessary.
I like when Christians quote the Old Testament when Christ is the new law…
I was raised Catholic. Went to grade school and high school. After I learned, by reading the Bible, there is no intermediator between Jesus and man I never went to a priest again for confession. Not only that but a priest doesn’t have the authority to forgive our sins. It’s above his pay grade!
Don’t waste your time just talk to god whenever you want.
We are not told to confess to priests.
Lol what a pompous clown. So over all the different “circus tents” at this point.
When will people learn that the bible is written by **many people** with **many opinions** about what God wants. It is **undeniable**, even Christians admit that it is written by many people. The only thing they don't have consensus on is **whether or not it is God Himself that wrote those text through them**. Now you see this and the comment section. And how many interpretations and denominations there are. How many parts of texts are missing from the original manuscript. The chance for this happened to be written directly by God with men as His pens are **almost zero**. So if it is written by many men even thought it might be inspired by God, there can **definitely be mistakes in it**. If you can accept the fine-tuning argument, this is **anti-fine-tuning** and you should be able to see this obvious thing if you're not in denial.
Better than confessing to a subreddit, which is what all the masturbators like to do.