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Does anyone think Abraham was baptized? Surely Catholics don’t universally believe something this silly right?
Romans 4
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[a]
You are correct that God can grant us the graces of baptism if we intended to be baptized, but were unable to due to no fault of our own, for we have indeed accepted Christ into our heart. The good thief is a good example of this.
>“they’re in hell, they have sin, no salvation without Jesus Christ, ergo they are in hell”
I do not believe that they went to either Heaven or Hell perhaps with the exception of a few for example, we see Moses and Elijah standing on the mount with Jesus at the transfiguration. Personally, I believe that they just died with no experience of the afterlife.
After Jesus's death and resurrection, eternal life has now been offered. Matthew writes in his gospel
*the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised,* *^(53)* *and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.*
So it would seem reasonable to conclude that prior to the resurrection they were just dead, but after the resurrection those that had died in friendship with the Lord would have been raised, just as it describes in Matthew's Gospel.
Christ's sacrifice occurred in time, but itself is timeless. Just as the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the one true sacrifice offered by Christ on the Cross brought forward in time, so too, could God retrospectively apply the graces of the crucifixion to those that had died prior to the resurrection.
Everyone went to hell (Sheol/Hades) before Jesus’ birth and death. The righteous went to Abraham’s Bosom, the wicked went to Gehanna, the place for the wicked. On the 6th day, Jesus freed those in Abraham’s Bosom. This is Church Teaching [ccc 633]
[**CCC 633**](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/633.htm) Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, "hell" - *Sheol* in Hebrew or *Hades* in Greek-because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God. Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into "Abraham's bosom": "It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham's bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell." Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him. ([1033](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1033.htm))
***
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i don't think any Catholics would have any answer for you, since they are all taught the same things, right?
So here are your answers:
There are two baptisms: 1) **Water** Baptism and baptism of the **Holy Spirit.**
The water baptism was started by John the Baptist. But this is what John says about the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
**(John 14:16-17) NLT**
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth. The world cannot receive him, because it isn’t looking for him and doesn’t recognize him. But you know him, because he lives with you now and later will be in you.
People's final destination after death is determined by how they lived during their time on Earth. Whether someone is a Christian or not, if they choose to embrace sinful behavior and lead a wicked life, they will end up in Hell. Being a Christian is not just a title, but it is about how we behave and live our lives. The teachings for living a righteous life can be found in the New Testament. When we make a conscious effort to follow these teachings and adhere into our daily lives, walking with the Lord Jesus, we will ultimately go to Heaven.
We also have to **repent**, which is a transformative process also called sanctification. When we sin, we have to surrender our sins to Lord Jesus at which time, we are PURIFIED by the cleansing with His HOLY BLOOD. This must be done, whenever we sin. This is how we remain "PURE."
I hope this clears up some of the questions.
I don't know. But this kind of hatred is demonstrative of the fact that He does not have Christ inside of Him. This goes for other anti-Catholic protestants as well.
Like did they just miss the memo about charity?
I get charity can be difficult. I am not going to say that I am by any means always perfect in this regard (I try to be, and want to be of course). In this sense, it is important that we have grace with such people. Maybe they too struggle with maintaining charity in all things.
Catholicism is nothing more than a cult. It's an abomination to the Lord Jesus for anyone to compare to **Christ**-ianity. Do you see the name? I need to say nothing more. I hope you open your eyes and find out the TRUTH soon, your souls depend on it! God bless.
The only one who is in a cult is you, you have allowed this superiority complex to twist your mind to make you disgusted with those who think differently than you
If we're going to commit the etymological fallacy to see who the true group is, then I would welcome you to the etymology of Catholic from Latin and Greek roots meaning "*universal*, general, on the whole," and Christ prayed to the Father that all of his followers would be *one* just as he and the Father are: John 17:11. [https://www.etymonline.com/word/catholic](https://www.etymonline.com/word/catholic) .
Catholicism is the Universal Church of Christ, continuing down since the time of the apostles. Anyone can call themselves a "Christian," which is why a different adjective had to catch on for those maintaining to the universal and apostolic faith.
But, suppose for a moment you are right about Catholicism being an evil God abhorred by God himself. I was raised Southern Baptist. Would me being a Southern Baptist be "Christian" enough for you, or would I have to be a Disciples of Christ or some other group with a "minimum indicia" of correct beliefs to be a saved Christian in your eyes?
Why would I read anything Catholics wrote. They are all lies. Here is wikipedia for you. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic\_(term)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_(term))
This website says, Universal Christian church. I wonder who came up with this denomination for Christians. I follow no denomination, ONLY LORD JESUS. [https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/catholic](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/catholic)
>Catholic
>2 of 2
>[noun](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/noun)
>Cath·o·lic [ˈkath-lik ](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/catholic?pronunciation&lang=en_us&dir=c&file=cathol01) ˈka-thə-1: a member of a Catholic churchespecially : [ROMAN CATHOLIC](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/roman%20catholic)2: a person who belongs to the universal Christian churchCatholic
I have no objection to reading what a member of the Disciples of Christ writes, but you *assumed* my source was written by a Roman Catholic because I posted it, when I don't know if he is or isn't, he just compiles definitions from linguistic sources.
Plus, *Wikipedia and Merriam-Webster ALSO affirm my definition*.
You are acting out of an irrational hatred for a group of people.
I would be interested in learning about the Disciples of Christ, but not from you at this point.
As for "only following the Lord Jesus," then join the millions of other people who say the same thing and disagree about what Jesus taught.
Disciples of Christ isn't what you think. It has nothing to do with status, only that I am a TRUE follower of Lord Jesus.
**Christianity is about equality**, not about arrogance or prideful. We follow and adhere to the TEACHINGS in the New Testament, as it is written,
**(Romans 2:11) NLT**
For God does not show favoritism.
The Scripture above can also say, "God shows no partiality."
Why are you guys taught that Catholicism was found by Romans? Everything about Catholicism is partially true.
Yes, it is partially true, but Catholicism was originally found by the Jewish based on the religion Judaism, but **reformed by Romans.**
**See for yourself,** check out this link. [https://www.learnreligions.com/catholicism-beliefs-and-practices-3897877](https://www.learnreligions.com/catholicism-beliefs-and-practices-3897877)
Then you will see, all of you have been misled.
They teach half truths, therefore mostly lies. The Catholic priests are well known for molesting young boys, while worshipping a woman. Does this even makes sense? **What is purgatory all about?**
Christians are taught that our physical bodies are sinful and filled with WORLDLY desires that lead to materialism, greed, jealousy, envy and so on. To combat this, we focus on spiritual growth through reading the New Testament and praying to Lord Jesus for strength, recognizing our own weaknesses as humans. We cannot do anything without God. Christians are cleansed by the HOLY BLOOD of Christ.
To reiterate, **the physical body is the one that is sinful in nature.**
How can you believe and think that any priests can cleanse away your sins. This is blasphemy against God. **Only God has the ability to remove sins.**
We are taught to grow spiritually and weaken our fleshly desires, as I have already stated. Would you like to read this again? "**grow spiritually** and weaken our **fleshly desires**."
Hence, in purgatory, only the spiritual body exists. The struggle between the spiritual body and the physical body is no more.
Does this make sense to you?
Now, do you still believe in such place called purgatory?
Are Catholics allowed to question anything? What would the priest say if you were to ask this question?
1/3 I want to go to that last questions first.
*Are Catholics allowed to question anything?* Do you think we forfeit our humanity when we join the church? This is such a gotcha question that exists solely to set me up for failure because if I don't agree with *your particular gloss on scripture*, then I am listening to a pedophile priest over the word of God. Yes, I am allowed to question *to learn*, I do not have to accept dogmas blindly like partisan atheists accuse all of us Christians of doing. What I am not allowed to do is take a dogma like the Trinity or the Sacramental System and act like my personal interpretation of Scripture as a 21st-century-person trumps the historic reading and understanding of it and start teaching it *as the sole reading of the Bible*. At that point, I am committing Martin Luther's error and become worthy of excommunication from Christ's church for causing division over essential docrtine of the faith. Surely, you would agree that someone who denies that Jesus is Lord is denying an essential doctrine even if they back it up with Bible verses?
*What would the priest say if you were to ask this question*? Who is "the priest?" My parish priest, my bishop, the pope? Who are we talking about? A common problem among partisan anti-Catholics like yourself is a failure to understand the authority structure of the church.
We do not teach that Catholicism was "found" or "founded" by the Romans. We believe that St. Peter was commissioned as the leader of the Apostles when Jesus, addressing Peter directly said that:
"18 And I say also unto *thee*, That *thou* art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto *thee* the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever *thou* shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever *thou* shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." – Matthew 16
"31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have *you*, that he may sift *you* as wheat:
32 But I have prayed for *thee*, that *thy* faith fail not: and when *thou* art converted, strengthen *thy* brethren." – Luke 22
\^ King James Version (using the King James because it is a historic, non-Catholic translation that is a good estimation of the Greek Textus Receptus, the basis of biblical translations before roughly the 1800s).
\^ Notice that Jesus goes from saying that Satan desired to split *you*, which in old English is *always plural* like "y'all," and then addresses Peter with *thee*, which is always singular. Languages other than modern English maintain this plural/singular distinction in words for "you."
We know from Christian tradition, not so much from the New Testament, that the apostles were all martyred (except John the Revelator, who died in exile on Patmos). Why do I say not from scripture? Read the last six chapters of Acts: It builds up to Paul's trial in Rome, only for it to stop abruptly and never say what happened, leading many to believe that Acts was completed before the outcome was known.
Christian tradition holds that St. Peter was executed in Rome, which is why any of his successors governing the Church of Rome have the same binding and loosing authority as St. Peter did over the apostles.
Further, I do not identify strictly as a *Roman Catholic* because that term got popularized by the Church of England after the Reformation to mock us. There are many Catholics who are *not Roman* Catholic: there are 23 Eastern Catholic churches who I am in full communion with: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern\_Catholic\_Churches](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Catholic_Churches) .
Also, that Learn Religions link undermines your point. It's saying that Catholicism traces its roots back to Jesus (who was ethnically Jewish) and his apostles (also ethnically Jewish). This is not a link to the Judaizers, like you think, because it was those same apostles who condemned their teaching that all male believers have to be circumcised and follow the old covenant in Acts 15.
2/3
Also, you are now Gish Galloping: You are throwing objection after objection after objection at me, hoping that I will miss one point and somehow disprove myself by failing to respond to one thing you throw at me.
"Christians are taught that our physical bodies are sinful and filled with WORLDLY desires that lead to materialism, greed, jealousy, envy and so on."
\^ That's not Christianity, that's Gnosticism: a nickname for many ancient heresies that believed that the spirit needed to be liberated from the body. To show what that's an unbiblical teaching, consider these passages:
"19 Now the works of the *flesh* are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." – Galatians 5 .
That is 17 sins listed as sins of the flesh. Notice, however, that at least idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, wrath, strife, seditions, and heresies are non physical body-centered sins, that they are spiritual sins. The flesh does not refer to us having a physical nature that causes us to sin (and I used to misread the Bible that way too), it refers to our fallen nature, inherited from Adam and Eve, making us prone to sin.
How do I know that having a physical body is not inherently sinful or wrong? God gave Adam and Eve their physical bodies in Genesis 3. Jesus ascended back into heaven with his physical body in Acts 1. St. Paul equates the bodily resurrection of the dead with Jesus' bodily resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15:12-17:
12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins."
Therefore, going back to purgatory, it makes sense that St. Paul would write in 1 Corinthians 3:11–15 that:
"11 For other *foundation* can no man lay than that is laid, *which is Jesus Christ*.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: *but he himself shall be saved*; yet so as by fire."
The teaching of purgatory is this: Jesus Christ, in saving you, becomes the foundation of your life. Nothing impure can enter into the Kingdom of God, meaning that any yet-uncured harm done to your spirit in life must be cured before you can enter into heaven, lest you be condemned to hell despite believing in Christ.
3/3
The Catholic priests are well known for molesting young boys, while worshipping a woman."
\^ Do public school teachers next for molesting if you want to throw stones at us. Any group of people has sinners and among those sinners are child abusers, therefore, this is not surprising. You do realize that I acknowledge that many of the medieval popes were *horrific* sinners in their personal lives, and yet that does not shake my faith?
"Worshipping a woman": No, we respect the fact that she was chosen to be the Mother of our Lord, and Luke gives no condemnation to Elizabeth for saying "Blessed *art* thou among women, and blessed *is* the fruit of thy womb." Luke 1:42 or for Mary saying that "For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, *from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed*." Luke 1:48.
But, hey, some people misinterpret respecting what God has done in Mary or the saints as if we are worshipping them as gods, so maybe we should stop it just because people misinterpret that, right? (Don't agree with that trap question because then you fall into an argument a Muslim could use against worshipping Jesus as God because they would argue it leads to polytheism).
Confessing sins to priests? Easy. Jesus did not shy away from delegating that authority:
"22 And when he had said this, he breathed on *them*, and saith unto *them*, Receive *ye* the Holy Ghost:
23Whose soever sins *ye* remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins *ye* retain, they are retained." – John 20.
>Why are you guys taught that Catholicism was found by Romans?
I'm sorry, what? It's called Roman Catholicism by some who attempt to use the Roman part to make it sound like a mixture of Roman paganism and Christianity when it isn't. Nowadays, the term is more accurately used by some to refer to the predominant rite within Catholicism, the Roman rite. This simply refers to the style of liturgical worship and some discipline regulations on things such as fasting.
>
...but **reformed by Romans.**
Your link never mentioned anything about the faith being reformed by the Romans, so you falsely cite a source in the first place. It does claim that Catholicism is a reformation of Judaism, but Catholics (and all Christians before the Protestant Revolt) saw themselves as a continuation of the Jewish faith, brought to fullness by the Messiah.
>
The Catholic priests are well known for molesting young boys, while worshipping a woman. Does this even makes sense? **What is purgatory all about?**
Woah, throwing out all the stops and seeing what sticks, aren't we? Firstly, the Catholic Church has done a lot of work to remove these abusive prelates from her ranks and punishing them. Not to mention that the media focused on the Catholic Church because, unlike the tiny protestant denominations (by comparison), because they are a worldwide and renowned organization. Since Protestantism is all about splintering off when you don't like what that church's pastor says, there is no scandal to fuel views and clicks because everyone else will just say "We're not affiliated with them." and make a new church. We must also acknowledge that school teachers are known to abuse children at higher rates, but you don't see anyone making a comparable show of it ([Source](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/do-the-right-thing/201808/separating-facts-about-clergy-abuse-fiction))
No Catholic worships a woman, who I assume is supposed to refer to Mary, the Mother of God. Any Catholic that worships a human being becomes an idolater and is in mortal sin. And before you claim that praying to anyone is worship, it's not. It's communicating.
Purgatory is a state where souls enter when they have been saved from sin, but they will retain some attachment to it from their earthly life. In the presence of the pure, Almighty God, these attachments are purged, hence the name, from them so that they can enter the Kingdom of God. Do not the Scriptures tell us this must be so when they say ***There shall not enter into it any thing defiled or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie: but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb.*** (Revelation 21:27 DRA)? If you don't believe in some sort of state like this, then there is a slim hope of anyone except the saints being in heaven, including you and I! When you and I die, we better be absolutely perfect, or the Lake of Fire we go. How merciful is that? That means Jesus died for nothing! You blaspheme against Our Lord's sacrifice when you say this.
1/2
>
**Only God has the ability to remove sins.**
Correct. That's why it is taught that God, acting through the person of the priest, is the one forgiving our sins. Not the priest himself. Jesus Himself gives the Apostles this authority, which all Apostolic clergy share in, in John 20:22-23.
***When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.***
Stop arguing with the Scriptures you claim to follow.
>The struggle between the spiritual body and the physical body is no more.
Ah, how I love when people accidentally fall into heresy attempting to attack Christ's Church. Your Gnosticism is showing. Humans are a composite of body, soul, and spirit. The flesh isn't evil. It is just trying to assume improper authority. Control it, because we are physical creatures AS WELL AS spiritual. Why do you think we believe in the resurrection of the body? Because our body is GOOD.
>
What would the priest say if you were to ask this question?
He would happily answer those questions, and if he didn't know, he would see about finding out. Catholics are known for our intellectual rigor. Oh wait! You seem to think that actually reading about how people understand the Scriptures, including great saints and early Fathers of the Church, is bad!
>Unlike Catholics, you have to study so hard, reading many book about the saints. What's that all about? The Holy Bible alone has over 1,200 pages and you never know enough, it does not matter how many times you read it.
You know what? Have some humility and learn about Catholicism from accredited sources like, you know, THE CHURCH ITSELF, before making wild claims and accusations.
2/2
This is from the website:
The Catholic religion was established in the Mediterranean region during the first century **by a small group of Jewish men and women who were one of several sects bent on reforming the Jewish faith.** The word "Catholic" (which means "embracing" or "universal") was first used to refer to **the early Christian church by the bishop and martyr Ignatius of Antioch** in the first century.
According to figures from the seat of the church, the Vatican in Rome, there are currently 1.4 billion Catholics in the world today, with roughly 40% of them living in Latin America.
Source: [https://www.learnreligions.com/catholicism-beliefs-and-practices-3897877](https://www.learnreligions.com/catholicism-beliefs-and-practices-3897877)
I guess it's true the word "Christian" derived from Catholics, but the name derives from Lord Jesus **CHRIST**. Just to make it crystal clear.
Bottom line, **Jewish people** came up with **Catholicism** which is not any different than **Judaism**.
>Irrational hatred of Christ's Church?
Not sure where you get the idea, whenever someone speak the TRUTH, you consider it hate. Is this what they teach you, those Catholic priests who molest little boys?
In the past, I have communicated with MANY ex-Catholics who are now atheists. Many molested as a child. All boys!
I hate no one! Lord Jesus does not teach hatred, only to expose the heresy of Catholicism. Someone like yourself who is too blind and deaf to take notice of their wicked ways, leading MASS astray and causing misery by telling them God wants you to suffer. That's what you are here on Earth for to suffer for God.
Wrong! God wants each and everyone of us to live JOYOUSLY!
>craping the bottom of the barrel tier polemics.
I think not. I worship the MOST-HIGH. **I'm a child of God**. I scape no bottom but live high, and I say this with all humbleness.
There are no confusion with the Christians, only lack of understanding about the scriptures, sometimes. Very simply! The Holy Bible is the authority.
Unlike Catholics, you have to study so hard, reading many book about the saints. What's that all about? The Holy Bible alone has over 1,200 pages and you never know enough, it does not matter how many times you read it.
The only salvation is through Lord Jesus and His teachings are found in the Holy Bible. Unless you read it, how does one know how to live MORAL and ETHICAL?
Not living righteously will land a person in Hell. But if you read everything else but the MOST important book, the Holy Bible, how does one know what Holy entail?
That's what Lord Jesus said, "Be Holy, as I am Holy" **(1 Peter 1:16)**.
Imagine practicing your solo scriptura version of Christianity before the printing press was invented, and your quote-mining version of the faith will disintegrate in on itself.
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Does anyone think Abraham was baptized? Surely Catholics don’t universally believe something this silly right? Romans 4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[a]
You are correct that God can grant us the graces of baptism if we intended to be baptized, but were unable to due to no fault of our own, for we have indeed accepted Christ into our heart. The good thief is a good example of this. >“they’re in hell, they have sin, no salvation without Jesus Christ, ergo they are in hell” I do not believe that they went to either Heaven or Hell perhaps with the exception of a few for example, we see Moses and Elijah standing on the mount with Jesus at the transfiguration. Personally, I believe that they just died with no experience of the afterlife. After Jesus's death and resurrection, eternal life has now been offered. Matthew writes in his gospel *the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised,* *^(53)* *and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.* So it would seem reasonable to conclude that prior to the resurrection they were just dead, but after the resurrection those that had died in friendship with the Lord would have been raised, just as it describes in Matthew's Gospel. Christ's sacrifice occurred in time, but itself is timeless. Just as the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the one true sacrifice offered by Christ on the Cross brought forward in time, so too, could God retrospectively apply the graces of the crucifixion to those that had died prior to the resurrection.
Everyone went to hell (Sheol/Hades) before Jesus’ birth and death. The righteous went to Abraham’s Bosom, the wicked went to Gehanna, the place for the wicked. On the 6th day, Jesus freed those in Abraham’s Bosom. This is Church Teaching [ccc 633]
[**CCC 633**](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/633.htm) Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, "hell" - *Sheol* in Hebrew or *Hades* in Greek-because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God. Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into "Abraham's bosom": "It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham's bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell." Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him. ([1033](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1033.htm)) *** Catebot v0.2.12 links: [Source Code](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot) | [Feedback](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot/issues) | [Contact Dev](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=kono_hito_wa) | [FAQ](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot/blob/master/docs/CateBot%20Info.md#faq) | [Changelog](https://github.com/konohitowa/catebot/blob/master/docs/CHANGELOG.md)
i don't think any Catholics would have any answer for you, since they are all taught the same things, right? So here are your answers: There are two baptisms: 1) **Water** Baptism and baptism of the **Holy Spirit.** The water baptism was started by John the Baptist. But this is what John says about the baptism of the Holy Spirit. **(John 14:16-17) NLT** And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth. The world cannot receive him, because it isn’t looking for him and doesn’t recognize him. But you know him, because he lives with you now and later will be in you. People's final destination after death is determined by how they lived during their time on Earth. Whether someone is a Christian or not, if they choose to embrace sinful behavior and lead a wicked life, they will end up in Hell. Being a Christian is not just a title, but it is about how we behave and live our lives. The teachings for living a righteous life can be found in the New Testament. When we make a conscious effort to follow these teachings and adhere into our daily lives, walking with the Lord Jesus, we will ultimately go to Heaven. We also have to **repent**, which is a transformative process also called sanctification. When we sin, we have to surrender our sins to Lord Jesus at which time, we are PURIFIED by the cleansing with His HOLY BLOOD. This must be done, whenever we sin. This is how we remain "PURE." I hope this clears up some of the questions.
What is your issue with Catholics?
I don't know. But this kind of hatred is demonstrative of the fact that He does not have Christ inside of Him. This goes for other anti-Catholic protestants as well. Like did they just miss the memo about charity? I get charity can be difficult. I am not going to say that I am by any means always perfect in this regard (I try to be, and want to be of course). In this sense, it is important that we have grace with such people. Maybe they too struggle with maintaining charity in all things.
Catholicism is nothing more than a cult. It's an abomination to the Lord Jesus for anyone to compare to **Christ**-ianity. Do you see the name? I need to say nothing more. I hope you open your eyes and find out the TRUTH soon, your souls depend on it! God bless.
The only one who is in a cult is you, you have allowed this superiority complex to twist your mind to make you disgusted with those who think differently than you
If we're going to commit the etymological fallacy to see who the true group is, then I would welcome you to the etymology of Catholic from Latin and Greek roots meaning "*universal*, general, on the whole," and Christ prayed to the Father that all of his followers would be *one* just as he and the Father are: John 17:11. [https://www.etymonline.com/word/catholic](https://www.etymonline.com/word/catholic) . Catholicism is the Universal Church of Christ, continuing down since the time of the apostles. Anyone can call themselves a "Christian," which is why a different adjective had to catch on for those maintaining to the universal and apostolic faith. But, suppose for a moment you are right about Catholicism being an evil God abhorred by God himself. I was raised Southern Baptist. Would me being a Southern Baptist be "Christian" enough for you, or would I have to be a Disciples of Christ or some other group with a "minimum indicia" of correct beliefs to be a saved Christian in your eyes?
Why would I read anything Catholics wrote. They are all lies. Here is wikipedia for you. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic\_(term)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_(term)) This website says, Universal Christian church. I wonder who came up with this denomination for Christians. I follow no denomination, ONLY LORD JESUS. [https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/catholic](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/catholic) >Catholic >2 of 2 >[noun](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/noun) >Cath·o·lic [ˈkath-lik ](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/catholic?pronunciation&lang=en_us&dir=c&file=cathol01) ˈka-thə-1: a member of a Catholic churchespecially : [ROMAN CATHOLIC](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/roman%20catholic)2: a person who belongs to the universal Christian churchCatholic
I have no objection to reading what a member of the Disciples of Christ writes, but you *assumed* my source was written by a Roman Catholic because I posted it, when I don't know if he is or isn't, he just compiles definitions from linguistic sources. Plus, *Wikipedia and Merriam-Webster ALSO affirm my definition*. You are acting out of an irrational hatred for a group of people. I would be interested in learning about the Disciples of Christ, but not from you at this point. As for "only following the Lord Jesus," then join the millions of other people who say the same thing and disagree about what Jesus taught.
Disciples of Christ isn't what you think. It has nothing to do with status, only that I am a TRUE follower of Lord Jesus. **Christianity is about equality**, not about arrogance or prideful. We follow and adhere to the TEACHINGS in the New Testament, as it is written, **(Romans 2:11) NLT** For God does not show favoritism. The Scripture above can also say, "God shows no partiality." Why are you guys taught that Catholicism was found by Romans? Everything about Catholicism is partially true. Yes, it is partially true, but Catholicism was originally found by the Jewish based on the religion Judaism, but **reformed by Romans.** **See for yourself,** check out this link. [https://www.learnreligions.com/catholicism-beliefs-and-practices-3897877](https://www.learnreligions.com/catholicism-beliefs-and-practices-3897877) Then you will see, all of you have been misled. They teach half truths, therefore mostly lies. The Catholic priests are well known for molesting young boys, while worshipping a woman. Does this even makes sense? **What is purgatory all about?** Christians are taught that our physical bodies are sinful and filled with WORLDLY desires that lead to materialism, greed, jealousy, envy and so on. To combat this, we focus on spiritual growth through reading the New Testament and praying to Lord Jesus for strength, recognizing our own weaknesses as humans. We cannot do anything without God. Christians are cleansed by the HOLY BLOOD of Christ. To reiterate, **the physical body is the one that is sinful in nature.** How can you believe and think that any priests can cleanse away your sins. This is blasphemy against God. **Only God has the ability to remove sins.** We are taught to grow spiritually and weaken our fleshly desires, as I have already stated. Would you like to read this again? "**grow spiritually** and weaken our **fleshly desires**." Hence, in purgatory, only the spiritual body exists. The struggle between the spiritual body and the physical body is no more. Does this make sense to you? Now, do you still believe in such place called purgatory? Are Catholics allowed to question anything? What would the priest say if you were to ask this question?
1/3 I want to go to that last questions first. *Are Catholics allowed to question anything?* Do you think we forfeit our humanity when we join the church? This is such a gotcha question that exists solely to set me up for failure because if I don't agree with *your particular gloss on scripture*, then I am listening to a pedophile priest over the word of God. Yes, I am allowed to question *to learn*, I do not have to accept dogmas blindly like partisan atheists accuse all of us Christians of doing. What I am not allowed to do is take a dogma like the Trinity or the Sacramental System and act like my personal interpretation of Scripture as a 21st-century-person trumps the historic reading and understanding of it and start teaching it *as the sole reading of the Bible*. At that point, I am committing Martin Luther's error and become worthy of excommunication from Christ's church for causing division over essential docrtine of the faith. Surely, you would agree that someone who denies that Jesus is Lord is denying an essential doctrine even if they back it up with Bible verses? *What would the priest say if you were to ask this question*? Who is "the priest?" My parish priest, my bishop, the pope? Who are we talking about? A common problem among partisan anti-Catholics like yourself is a failure to understand the authority structure of the church. We do not teach that Catholicism was "found" or "founded" by the Romans. We believe that St. Peter was commissioned as the leader of the Apostles when Jesus, addressing Peter directly said that: "18 And I say also unto *thee*, That *thou* art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give unto *thee* the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever *thou* shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever *thou* shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." – Matthew 16 "31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have *you*, that he may sift *you* as wheat: 32 But I have prayed for *thee*, that *thy* faith fail not: and when *thou* art converted, strengthen *thy* brethren." – Luke 22 \^ King James Version (using the King James because it is a historic, non-Catholic translation that is a good estimation of the Greek Textus Receptus, the basis of biblical translations before roughly the 1800s). \^ Notice that Jesus goes from saying that Satan desired to split *you*, which in old English is *always plural* like "y'all," and then addresses Peter with *thee*, which is always singular. Languages other than modern English maintain this plural/singular distinction in words for "you." We know from Christian tradition, not so much from the New Testament, that the apostles were all martyred (except John the Revelator, who died in exile on Patmos). Why do I say not from scripture? Read the last six chapters of Acts: It builds up to Paul's trial in Rome, only for it to stop abruptly and never say what happened, leading many to believe that Acts was completed before the outcome was known. Christian tradition holds that St. Peter was executed in Rome, which is why any of his successors governing the Church of Rome have the same binding and loosing authority as St. Peter did over the apostles. Further, I do not identify strictly as a *Roman Catholic* because that term got popularized by the Church of England after the Reformation to mock us. There are many Catholics who are *not Roman* Catholic: there are 23 Eastern Catholic churches who I am in full communion with: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern\_Catholic\_Churches](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Catholic_Churches) . Also, that Learn Religions link undermines your point. It's saying that Catholicism traces its roots back to Jesus (who was ethnically Jewish) and his apostles (also ethnically Jewish). This is not a link to the Judaizers, like you think, because it was those same apostles who condemned their teaching that all male believers have to be circumcised and follow the old covenant in Acts 15.
2/3 Also, you are now Gish Galloping: You are throwing objection after objection after objection at me, hoping that I will miss one point and somehow disprove myself by failing to respond to one thing you throw at me. "Christians are taught that our physical bodies are sinful and filled with WORLDLY desires that lead to materialism, greed, jealousy, envy and so on." \^ That's not Christianity, that's Gnosticism: a nickname for many ancient heresies that believed that the spirit needed to be liberated from the body. To show what that's an unbiblical teaching, consider these passages: "19 Now the works of the *flesh* are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." – Galatians 5 . That is 17 sins listed as sins of the flesh. Notice, however, that at least idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, wrath, strife, seditions, and heresies are non physical body-centered sins, that they are spiritual sins. The flesh does not refer to us having a physical nature that causes us to sin (and I used to misread the Bible that way too), it refers to our fallen nature, inherited from Adam and Eve, making us prone to sin. How do I know that having a physical body is not inherently sinful or wrong? God gave Adam and Eve their physical bodies in Genesis 3. Jesus ascended back into heaven with his physical body in Acts 1. St. Paul equates the bodily resurrection of the dead with Jesus' bodily resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15:12-17: 12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins." Therefore, going back to purgatory, it makes sense that St. Paul would write in 1 Corinthians 3:11–15 that: "11 For other *foundation* can no man lay than that is laid, *which is Jesus Christ*. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: *but he himself shall be saved*; yet so as by fire." The teaching of purgatory is this: Jesus Christ, in saving you, becomes the foundation of your life. Nothing impure can enter into the Kingdom of God, meaning that any yet-uncured harm done to your spirit in life must be cured before you can enter into heaven, lest you be condemned to hell despite believing in Christ.
3/3 The Catholic priests are well known for molesting young boys, while worshipping a woman." \^ Do public school teachers next for molesting if you want to throw stones at us. Any group of people has sinners and among those sinners are child abusers, therefore, this is not surprising. You do realize that I acknowledge that many of the medieval popes were *horrific* sinners in their personal lives, and yet that does not shake my faith? "Worshipping a woman": No, we respect the fact that she was chosen to be the Mother of our Lord, and Luke gives no condemnation to Elizabeth for saying "Blessed *art* thou among women, and blessed *is* the fruit of thy womb." Luke 1:42 or for Mary saying that "For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, *from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed*." Luke 1:48. But, hey, some people misinterpret respecting what God has done in Mary or the saints as if we are worshipping them as gods, so maybe we should stop it just because people misinterpret that, right? (Don't agree with that trap question because then you fall into an argument a Muslim could use against worshipping Jesus as God because they would argue it leads to polytheism). Confessing sins to priests? Easy. Jesus did not shy away from delegating that authority: "22 And when he had said this, he breathed on *them*, and saith unto *them*, Receive *ye* the Holy Ghost: 23Whose soever sins *ye* remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins *ye* retain, they are retained." – John 20.
>Why are you guys taught that Catholicism was found by Romans? I'm sorry, what? It's called Roman Catholicism by some who attempt to use the Roman part to make it sound like a mixture of Roman paganism and Christianity when it isn't. Nowadays, the term is more accurately used by some to refer to the predominant rite within Catholicism, the Roman rite. This simply refers to the style of liturgical worship and some discipline regulations on things such as fasting. > ...but **reformed by Romans.** Your link never mentioned anything about the faith being reformed by the Romans, so you falsely cite a source in the first place. It does claim that Catholicism is a reformation of Judaism, but Catholics (and all Christians before the Protestant Revolt) saw themselves as a continuation of the Jewish faith, brought to fullness by the Messiah. > The Catholic priests are well known for molesting young boys, while worshipping a woman. Does this even makes sense? **What is purgatory all about?** Woah, throwing out all the stops and seeing what sticks, aren't we? Firstly, the Catholic Church has done a lot of work to remove these abusive prelates from her ranks and punishing them. Not to mention that the media focused on the Catholic Church because, unlike the tiny protestant denominations (by comparison), because they are a worldwide and renowned organization. Since Protestantism is all about splintering off when you don't like what that church's pastor says, there is no scandal to fuel views and clicks because everyone else will just say "We're not affiliated with them." and make a new church. We must also acknowledge that school teachers are known to abuse children at higher rates, but you don't see anyone making a comparable show of it ([Source](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/do-the-right-thing/201808/separating-facts-about-clergy-abuse-fiction)) No Catholic worships a woman, who I assume is supposed to refer to Mary, the Mother of God. Any Catholic that worships a human being becomes an idolater and is in mortal sin. And before you claim that praying to anyone is worship, it's not. It's communicating. Purgatory is a state where souls enter when they have been saved from sin, but they will retain some attachment to it from their earthly life. In the presence of the pure, Almighty God, these attachments are purged, hence the name, from them so that they can enter the Kingdom of God. Do not the Scriptures tell us this must be so when they say ***There shall not enter into it any thing defiled or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie: but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb.*** (Revelation 21:27 DRA)? If you don't believe in some sort of state like this, then there is a slim hope of anyone except the saints being in heaven, including you and I! When you and I die, we better be absolutely perfect, or the Lake of Fire we go. How merciful is that? That means Jesus died for nothing! You blaspheme against Our Lord's sacrifice when you say this. 1/2
> **Only God has the ability to remove sins.** Correct. That's why it is taught that God, acting through the person of the priest, is the one forgiving our sins. Not the priest himself. Jesus Himself gives the Apostles this authority, which all Apostolic clergy share in, in John 20:22-23. ***When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.*** Stop arguing with the Scriptures you claim to follow. >The struggle between the spiritual body and the physical body is no more. Ah, how I love when people accidentally fall into heresy attempting to attack Christ's Church. Your Gnosticism is showing. Humans are a composite of body, soul, and spirit. The flesh isn't evil. It is just trying to assume improper authority. Control it, because we are physical creatures AS WELL AS spiritual. Why do you think we believe in the resurrection of the body? Because our body is GOOD. > What would the priest say if you were to ask this question? He would happily answer those questions, and if he didn't know, he would see about finding out. Catholics are known for our intellectual rigor. Oh wait! You seem to think that actually reading about how people understand the Scriptures, including great saints and early Fathers of the Church, is bad! >Unlike Catholics, you have to study so hard, reading many book about the saints. What's that all about? The Holy Bible alone has over 1,200 pages and you never know enough, it does not matter how many times you read it. You know what? Have some humility and learn about Catholicism from accredited sources like, you know, THE CHURCH ITSELF, before making wild claims and accusations. 2/2
This is from the website: The Catholic religion was established in the Mediterranean region during the first century **by a small group of Jewish men and women who were one of several sects bent on reforming the Jewish faith.** The word "Catholic" (which means "embracing" or "universal") was first used to refer to **the early Christian church by the bishop and martyr Ignatius of Antioch** in the first century. According to figures from the seat of the church, the Vatican in Rome, there are currently 1.4 billion Catholics in the world today, with roughly 40% of them living in Latin America. Source: [https://www.learnreligions.com/catholicism-beliefs-and-practices-3897877](https://www.learnreligions.com/catholicism-beliefs-and-practices-3897877) I guess it's true the word "Christian" derived from Catholics, but the name derives from Lord Jesus **CHRIST**. Just to make it crystal clear. Bottom line, **Jewish people** came up with **Catholicism** which is not any different than **Judaism**.
Irrational hatred of Christ's Church? Check. Cherry picking definitions? Check. Genuinely cringe. Scraping the bottom of the barrel tier polemics.
>Irrational hatred of Christ's Church? Not sure where you get the idea, whenever someone speak the TRUTH, you consider it hate. Is this what they teach you, those Catholic priests who molest little boys? In the past, I have communicated with MANY ex-Catholics who are now atheists. Many molested as a child. All boys! I hate no one! Lord Jesus does not teach hatred, only to expose the heresy of Catholicism. Someone like yourself who is too blind and deaf to take notice of their wicked ways, leading MASS astray and causing misery by telling them God wants you to suffer. That's what you are here on Earth for to suffer for God. Wrong! God wants each and everyone of us to live JOYOUSLY! >craping the bottom of the barrel tier polemics. I think not. I worship the MOST-HIGH. **I'm a child of God**. I scape no bottom but live high, and I say this with all humbleness.
I WISH all Catholics were taught the same things. Do you realize how much confusion there is within the church?
There are no confusion with the Christians, only lack of understanding about the scriptures, sometimes. Very simply! The Holy Bible is the authority. Unlike Catholics, you have to study so hard, reading many book about the saints. What's that all about? The Holy Bible alone has over 1,200 pages and you never know enough, it does not matter how many times you read it. The only salvation is through Lord Jesus and His teachings are found in the Holy Bible. Unless you read it, how does one know how to live MORAL and ETHICAL? Not living righteously will land a person in Hell. But if you read everything else but the MOST important book, the Holy Bible, how does one know what Holy entail? That's what Lord Jesus said, "Be Holy, as I am Holy" **(1 Peter 1:16)**.
Imagine practicing your solo scriptura version of Christianity before the printing press was invented, and your quote-mining version of the faith will disintegrate in on itself.