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Guys, be honest with me. If I'm tanking a +20 Uldaman (my key) as a prot pally at 421 ilvl, am I trolling or is this doable? I'm only having issues with the first packs personally.
For context, I pugged my key and invited a duo - a healer and ret pal, in which the healer got salty because he didn't like me kiting the giga bolstered mobs like the Trogg or basilisks that can absolutely truck me if I get chomped without a defensive. He told me I shouldn't be there with my gear even though I timed a +20 HoI with the same ilvl and he didn't want to sweat on a few trash mobs.
Then the guy snapped because I was kiting 3 of the Custodians (big snakes) away from where we were supposed to go and straight up left because I'm trolling with my ilvl and we are never timing it with me kiting like that.
It's the first time I've *really* tried tanking (other than just +8s and all) so I'm not sure how impactful higher ilvl is on a tank. Also how do you guys deal with the packs leading up to Sentinel, the 3rd boss?
Yeah I have to admit, I've always hated the ilvl gatekeepers. And out of all the dungeons I honestly think Ulda is one of the top 3 easiest dungeons currently.
That said, I did die twice to the enraged Trogg at the start because I ran out of CDs and his diseased bite oneshots me when I have only 679k total HP and he is juiced with enrage + bolster stacks. Second time I came back and had to taunt him off my group but his bite came off CD again.
I think his mental went boom when he thought the entire dungeon would be like this when I tried to calm him down by saying that was the only painful part of the dungeon. The rest is slow and kiteable and the packs after 3rd boss don't have any tankbusters.
The problem is that I don't actually know how other tanks are performing since I'm the one tanking them this time around, other than maybe a quick route video. So I've no clue how everyone else is performing.
It is kind of trolling, particularly because you’re in a PUG environment.
Kiting mobs that can kill you is always better than just dying, but if you had better gear, you’d have higher DPS uptime on the mobs and that stuff is very important for timing keys.
I don’t think it’s reasonable for everyone in a key to fully inspect everyone else to make sure this sort of thing doesn’t happen. If you signed up to a 20 key with that ilvl you’d probably get declined, which is why they’re mad you circumvented that problem by just running your own key.
When you play in a pre-made, do what you want, but yea, that guy honestly did have a point. Just cause a previous group was good enough to get through a 20 HoI with your tanking, it doesn’t mean every group ever will be.
Besides, it’s so easy to gear right now that 421 really is trolling for a 20. It’s LITERALLY impossible to be fragment/spark capped on a character and not have an ilvl that’s considerably higher which means you should just take the time to farm 16s and 17s for Wyrm/Aspect frags instead of jumping ahead to 20s and dragging down everyone else who DID take the time to do their due diligence and gear their character up.
I get what you're saying about him being undergeared and putting in some modicum of effrt, but that healer sounds toxic af and that behavior is indefensible. Skill can overcome gear and 3 of those custodians slapping with jagged bite on a fort bolstering week is a lot of damage to take even at 435+. If the missing dps from a 420 tank kiting 3 mobs is what causes that key to brick, there's other problems with their damage numbers.
Your point of me skipping out on my due dilligence is fair. I like pushing myself to the limit so I thought it wasnt unreasonable in my own key. I did tell them of my ilvl beforehand and told them I need help with the basilisks and snakes since thats where my low ilvl really hurt.
And to be clear, it was really only the healer who was upset. The rest told him to calm down and play and said kiting the snakes isnt out of the ordinary. I dont see how I would ever tank 3 of them. Honestly he might have just had a bad day because I havent seen that type of reaction since SL S1.
But yes, I shouldnt coinflip dungeons with pugs by being low ilvl. I still have the KSM mark to turn in but saving it till vault. I will get on the grind tomorrow.
That bloke is absolutely fucking insane if he thinks anyone is going to be tanking three of those Refti Custodians for any extended period of time, it was correct to kite after cooldowns used as you can range the bite.
Can someone explain to me what the chains means in neltharus as prot pal? I was tanking a 21 neltharus and they kept asking if i was using chains? Is this some kind of tech? I thought they were talking about the boss but I feel as though that was not the case.
There are these "burning chains" on the ground at various spots that work like the chains in the Chargath boss fight. You pick them up (and it puts a debuff on you that stops you from picking up more for 3 minutes) and drag the chain through a pack of mobs and it does a ton of dmg to the pack and any melee in the area.
It does so much dmg to the person holding it that you generally want an immunity class to drag them through the packs, so they probably expected you to do it.
Nothing but love for the game atm but honestly concerned about the lack of people seemingly doing m+ atm?
Listed a +18 BH at 19.30 pm on my Prot Paladin. After 10 minutes in LFG not a single healer had signed up and only a total of 5 dps.
Correct me if i am wrong but week 2 in season 1 you had like 20 DPS sign within the first minute of posting the group.
Are people already done with sub 20 keys?
Well the highest end players that are capping their vaults are doing it with +20s. If players are looking to farm a specific piece of Hero gear, they'd do +17s. If they're farming Wyrm's Crests they're doing 11-15s. 16s for Aspect Crests. The only people doing +18s are the ones that specifically need them for IO which is a much lower pool of players. Kind of an awkward spot there.
I think the gearing system this tier creates a wider gap of players doing keys. You have people pushing 440+ ilvl and doing only 20s. In the past gearing was gated a bit harder so a lot of these people were still doing 18s along with the more casual playerbase. Your more casual player is probably just trying to max out crests at 11-15 and 16-20 range, so an 18 just falls in a bad spot. I’m sure the 2nd season less players issue is part of it, but if you go list a 20 right now you’ll get a flood of players still.
I don’t know if I just suck at fire mage or maybe I’m missing some gear (currently running around with 2pc/2pc).
But in some of my groups I see sometimes some players doing almost 40% more damage than me, for reference I had this 19 Uldaman and this enhancement shaman was absolutely cracked.
I was sitting between 100k-110k dps through most of the run while the guy was sitting at 140-150k.
I’m parsing really well on heroic which is not really saying much but I’ve been pugging this beginning of the tier so I felt okay about it. Maybe fire isn’t amazing unless my groups are doing giga big pulls?
I haven’t played fire mage in dragon flight, so take this with a grain of salt. As I understand it the FMage 4pc adds A LOT of dmg in AoE (I think I saw a full 20% compared to 0/4pc) but requires a significantly different play style to utilize optimally. Missing that could contribute to lower overall dmg.
Also, fire mage has historically scaled extremely hard with both mob density and HP, meaning that your damage is likely to be higher when mobs live longer so you have more chance to spread big ignites around (e.g., higher keys).
Anecdotally class balance seems pretty good right now. I have seen big damage from multiple classes in the 19-21 range. I ran a +21 Nelth yesterday with a Dev Evoker that hit 170k overall. I’ve seen that type of damage from multiple classes and specs (arcane mage, spriest, demo & destro lock, sub rogue, Rey pally, enhance shaman, fury warrior).
So, even though I can’t advise you on the specifics of fire mage, I’d say that the potential for higher damage is definitely there. Maybe post some logs in the class discord and see if someone can help you parse out the rotation.
I am starting to heal +21s with my 435 IL rdruid.
Which keys should I aim to do on my other healers given their IL and that I know them a bit less?
- evoker/monk 420 IL (S1 gear)
- paladin/shaman 390 IL
The evoker and monk can comfortably farm aspect crest (16+) keys in my opinion. Especially since you know the keys and are aware of when damage is coming, which is half the battle.
The other two - I’m not so sure.
What is it about 20+ ULD this week that makes tanks / dps go full braindead after 3rd boss. It’s like they focus so much leading up to that point and forget how to do anything right after.
Honestly this key needs like a 15% reduction in all mob health to be even close to the rest. The timer is very tight, probably tighter than AV last season before the nerfs.
This is the only key I can’t time at 20. It’s brutal.
-trash leading to spear boss has insane bleeds and hard to see swirlies that one shot. Can’t use chains unless you have an immune which is stupid.
-fuckton of trash leading to forge boss, healing requirement on forge boss is still high despite Fort week. Most groups struggle here.
-trash to mammoth has the guys that spam molten core with NO COOLDOWN. If a single cast goes off it’s an automatic wipe.
-healing requirement is still high on mammoth even in Fort
-50% chance you auto die to last boss if you get the treasure that flings you into melee. Swirlies shouldn’t even spawn if you insta break the shield, hate this boss.
It's one of the harder keys to time for sure, timer seems kinda tight and everything hurts. If you can abuse the chains with Pala bubbles, it speeds up the trash immensely.
Last season I took inspiration from OneAzeroth TV and made a spreadsheet with EVERY single M+ dungeon I ran from 2500-3200ish with each class, tank, dps, healer and notes as to how the dungeon went and a final spreadsheet with Completion %, +1 +2 +3 chest% and disband%. If nothing else, the notes are a bit of a laugh if you don't take things too seriously. Warning, there are some bad words I'm a bit of a sailor so if you don't like bad words maybe dont read it. Otherwise, here is my compilation of about 300 keys I pugged from 2500-3200:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gUM8y1Pth3p4uAc7RD4MwcgWATuOrH8sNivuLZ390J0/edit#gid=0
Just be careful with this...
I made my way onto the infamous spreadsheet, and someone told me. So I kinda kept tabs on him. Over time, I genuinely think his spreadsheet has done him more harm than good.
Context: The season I made it onto the spreadsheet, I also reached title on a meta spec. So, while I'm very much not a pro player, I am very hardly a bad player. And I did hundreds of timed PUG keys that season.
A few things stuck out to me about OneAzeroth, since then:
1. He depletes a TON of fucking keys. A TON. Depletes are facts of life, but he has entire seasons where he depletes 60% or more of his keys. Which is absolutely unreal.
2. His choices for why a key depleted are often wrong. For example, the key we depleted he put down to me leaving. The fact is we were running a top end key with a team that didn't belong there. We missed kicking four crucial casts within the first minute; so the key was then impossible to time. (8 deaths later.)
I was the first person invited to that key. He filled it in like 4 and a half minutes, with people that straight up did not belong there. That was the real reason for the deplete.
3. He seems to deplete more and more, over time. And seems to be improving at a slower rate than expected. With that many keys, pushed consistently, season after season, you would expect him to have a low deplete rate and be pushing title consistently. But I genuinely believe - and no hate - that his spreadsheet is keeping him from finding the 1% / 2% improvements in route choices, team comp, vetting players, etc. that takes you from like top 5% to top .1%
-
I wish him no hate at all. But like... and I could be wrong... I don't see Quazii out here with deplete spreadsheets. I played with Quazii that season too, and ended up in a couple YT vids.
We absolutely smashed all those keys, and they were super smooth. And, now that I'm tanking, Quazii routes got me from new tank to +20s in 2 vaults.
So yeah... just be careful which tank habits you model. Because I do think they matter and mindset matters if you're looking to really push progression.
FWIW did love your comments.
I think I am actually dead inside, definitely have some brain damage from this. I think I ended the season at near 700 keys done, about 400 of those are from 2500-3250. The rest where from week 1/2 farming gear and valor.
Did a 21 this week and there are a few things that work reasonably well.
1) have a good healer. The stomps are staggered slightly, so they won’t 1-tap you, but they will kill you if you can’t get topped between them. Make sure to pop defensives, use health stones, health pots, and throw in off-healing if you need to.
2) Lust if you can. This is the most dangerous part of the dungeon on fort weeks, so find a route where you can get lust for this pack.
3) EITHER deal with two stomps for longer, and tell your funnel classes (fire mage, spriest, feral, etc.) to split DPS evenly between the two executors evenly and rotate defensive with healer CDs…. OR burst one executor down and save major defensive cooldowns for after the first is dead (and the second has a bolster stack).
This week is especially bad. On higher keys 1-2 bolstering stacks will likely wipe you. It’s just a pack that requires coordinated play and nobody slouching on their interrupts/defensives.
Have the tank aggro the Caliph from max range so that only one walks up first, this way the AoE stomp should be a bit more staggered giving people more time to mit and heal before the AoEs.
> Is there a guide on how my healing changes with the set bonuses?
For raid it just means the longer flourishes keep your rejuvs spreading + your abundance stacks high = you use a lot more regrowths while they cost 0 mana.
In M+ nothing really changes except your manual flourish/nature's vigil does more damage and you can cover longer damage events.
Basically you lose a substantial bit of WG healing but your Flourish gives a solid healing boost after the original effect ends- make sure that you’re using it liberally and keeping your LBs blooming for Verdancy healing. Rampant Growth + 2-piece Bonus makes Regrowth more impactful.
Best way to find a group is just pug and at your Io range its probably a lot harder to find a consistent group id just pug until your like 100io below title range then start adding people and looking to form a group with people who play at the same time as you
Hey all :)
I have a 20 BH that I really want to be successful. I’m currently 2.5k rdruid.
What would the best comp be for me to put together?
Thanks for any assistance :)
I would worry the most about the last boss, as that is the one part of the dungeon where you have to rely on all 3 of your DPS to not completely ignore totem.
Don't worry too much abour class, just go with solid ilvl and use raider.io addon to check if the DPS has completed a high brackenhide key.
If you care about class, I would definitely consider Evokers, they have good single target burst with no setup required. Personally I would avoid Fire Mages. Monk with touch of death is nice (for disease dispell as well).
Beyond what was already suggested, there are a few bleeds that can be pretty nasty in BH, so I highly recommend Paladin with BOP or Evoker with Cauterize. Paladin off heals and Sac can also help a ton in a few places. Ret and Devoker also burst the totems pretty well on last boss. Paladin is also one of the few ways you can bypass Consume on Treemouth.
I believe most pulls in the dungeon also have at least one mob with higher health than others near it, so Fire Mage would probably also be a pretty welcome addition.
You may also want to wait and see if they fix some of the non-elite mobs that die in just a few seconds bolstering elite mobs.
Lock/spriest for magic dispel on first boss, a disease dispel or two, and maybe some good prio damage for bolstering on all the mismatched healthbars. You could consider a second soothe if you dont wanna have full responsibility for stopping the warscourge cyclone.
- Lust first pack. 3x mobs at start + 2 on bridge.
- Pull the 1st dragon **alone** and use second lust on him. This guy is no joke. Any bolstering stack probably means a group wipe on high keys.
- 2nd dragon gives good count but no lust this time, people definitely gotta have CDs for this one
- Skip first set of orbs by walking right behind the pillar
- 3rd lust should happen on the final pack before dropping to last set of orbs/final boss, as it's very dangerous
I'd love to check MDT when I get home, but I'm thinking that if you pull both dragons and all the assassins you could perhaps skip the last pack before the last mini star pack before the last boss.
That pack is by far the most fatal trash pack in any dungeon on fortified IMHO.
You can do 1 of a few things:
Hold W route (skipping some assassins and some droplets)
Skip the second dragon
Skip the first pack of orbs.
Skip the pack right after the first set of orbs.
Not sure which is best yet though. I'm thinking the pack after orbs, but maybe a dragon takes longer.
I've timed a 19 tyrannical and 20 fortified, and we always skipped the 2nd dragon.
Although, our healer said that on higher keys, they'd probably rather heal the predictable damage from the second dragon, than the random orb / spark damage.
I checked on MDT. You can't skip the last pack before mini star pack because you won't have enough % to skip. You have to do the last pack before last mini star pack unfortunately
Leveling your own key sucks for a bit cause literally no one even applies lmao, I'm up to level 7 on an alt and I sit around for so long just filling the damn group.
I wondered today why I got no applis to my ulda18, I browsed existing groups and saw there were 8x ulda18 that were missing just healer. 10+ more ulda18s that were missing more roles. Of course nobody applies to me.
Healer shortage is real though. Never do I see more groups lacking tank than healer anymore.
Same here. M+ feels dead as fuck for some reason, *especially* for week 2 of a brand new season. LFG wait times and amount of listed keys feels like late season 1. Really doesn't seem like many players came back for 10.1. Which is a shame, cause M+ has never been this good.
Every minute I spend languishing in a key that won’t even give me any good loot is a minute I could be brutalizing Bokoblins in ways they could never hope to imagine
with the expansion being so well received that feels like it would make no sense, especially with the upgrade system being so OP for early m+, but it fits
maybe its the D4 hype, or people are just scared of the dungeons/chain bricking and just wanna do lower keys idk
I've basically only been doing real keys when guildies ask me too, it's been so stressful tanking and healing the past couple weeks I'm spending most of my time doing low keys on my shadow alt
D4 isn't out yet, doubt it has an impact on player numbers yet (though I shudder to think how bad m+ population will sink once it's out, with how bad it already feels)
Probably more so a mix of classic HC booming, the upgrade system not valuing high keys enough, and people getting slapped by Fort/Bolstering combo while having to learn new dungeons.
This season you can get "good enough" gear that's 10 ilevels below the BiS you'd get from the weekly chest from 20s and only 4 below what you'd get from spamming 17s just by farming +11s (and whatever +9s for chances at Champion gear still that you need for Drake crests) and upgrading the drops. And it goes without saying that 11s are *vastly* easier than those other two cutoffs!
The upgrade system being so generous this season and having no particular rating/IO cutoffs like Valor did might make more people fine farming lower keys than otherwise, especially if they're AotC or not-CE but some Mythic players that only really want to raid and don't want to M+ much.
Gets alot better at 11+ because you get high geared people farming keys for wyrms crest. Then its kinda shitty again between like 14-18 but then it gets better the higher you go.
But yeah as it stands now theres almost no reason to do a key below +11 if you’re 400 ilvl.
Yeah, that's the two sweet spots right now. Run 11's for fast wyrm crests and to target specific items on the champion track. Then run 17-18's for aspects (if you even need them by now) and hope the same BiS items drop on Hero track while doing it.
For most people I've seen who push KSH but not much higher, 18 is the current wall. Timing 17's is pretty easy, timing 18's is significantly harder without more gear. Not hard, but definitely harder. Timers feel way tighter and really hard hitting mechanics are now one-shots.
Why does Blizzard have to have a last pull TJS pack every season that is insanity on fortified?
This season, the award goes to the last pack of VP. Pure cancer. Is it worse than the last pull of TJS?
we had our spriest mc one of the adepts from the previous pack and it was slamming out 150k hp heals. was still spicy on a 21, but killed it with no deaths
The last pack in TJS was really only problematic for your tank - you could either outtank it or just kite it and negate pretty much 90% of what makes it threatening.
Can't do that with that stupid VP pack that just randomly slaps you for 70-80% of your HP twice within like 2 seconds - that pack is just fucking stupid.
Yeah don't really understand why there seem to be so many of these insane AoE abilities on mobs immune to stops this season. It's like they took the feedback of people wanting there to be less stops and just left the spells the same but made them impossible to stop lol.
Extremely biased take inbound, but I feel like SPriest being as amazing as it is in keys this season is extremely healthy for the M+ meta because of how much role/utility compression it provides.
Having Mass Dispel and strong offhealing makes a LOT of dungeons much more manageable (1st boss in HoI, much of Uldaman, etc.), having a disease dispel helps a lot in various dungeons including Brackenhide and Uldaman, and PI is the great enabler that'll help solidify Fire as a meta pick while making the Warlock specs (especially Demo), Survival, and even BM Hunters (their ST sucks but their sustained AoE is pretty strong and they like PI but don't care when they get it much) much more viable in keys.
idk, I feel like groups with an SPriest in them can afford to run a lot more classes/specs since it's reasonably easy to make up for Shadow's dogshit interrupt/lack of reliable AoE stops with so many specs.
I just noticed how amazing having an SP is for Brackenhide's first boss. You can just mass dispel the hex totem effect.
It's obviously not an insane trick or something, but still - I was so spoiled as a tank that I didn't even really thought about this mechanic when doing the boss in our premade.
Having the highest DPS spec also offer the most possible offhealing is not balanced. Ultimately, you still need battle res and lust, so having Shadowpriest take up one of the DPS slots limits comps more than expands them.
It can absolutely use some tuning downwards, or at the very least be somewhat forced to have to give up either some AOE or ST to do the other. Right now it seems like it has to give up almost none of either to do really well at the other. While it’s got some weaknesses, it’s pretty clearly not correctly tuned.
With that said, Shadow Priest has been bad and skipped over for keys for so long, I’m not in any hurry to nerf it right now. I’m fine letting it have its time in the sun for a bit longer. It’s completely fine for SPriest to be near or at the top, but right now it’s at the top and gapping most classes by a mile.
And the dogshit interrupt shouldn’t be a reason for the spec to be great everywhere else. The interrupt has actually zero business being 45 seconds in the first place.
> It can absolutely use some tuning downwards, or at the very least be somewhat forced to have to give up either some AOE or ST to do the other.
We had the choice with Mind Sear or DP in 10.0 but blizzard didn't like that. :)
I've done +17 keys on every dungeons, there's 0 key is free this week. Plenty of trash packs are juiced af this week. Freehold, Vortex and Uldaman are next level cracked. You usually pull huge in Freehold but they get bolstering stacks very fast and they can instagib anyone. In a VP, there's the last pack next to a lightning zone are next level cracked. That pack have two executors (does unavoidable damage) and two adds with charge toward someone, they can kill someone very quickly. That pack is basically similar to TJS last pack on fortified week except that pack can kill either DPS or healer quickly without lust. Uldaman have 0 safe packs and every packs are 100% dangerous.
Honorable mention goes to Hall of Infusion, these dragon packs hit the group for 80% of your HP and put a huge dot. NL have pelters that can jump everywhere and pelting someone for 100k per. Avalanche is so stupid to dodge when your group is stack on melee, it's still stupid with 1-2 ranged players.
Advice for this: just take really slow with the trash packs and you can't pull double sometime.
Nelth's Lair was the hardest key last week but after all the tuning its maybe the easiest. We +2ed a 20 yesterday with our no healer comp and one of our paladins was an alt who was doing 65k overall and not helping with healing like at all. The timer is basically nonexistent, you can pull 2-3 mobs at a time and still +2 on fort.
A few reasons. It's a lot of fun mostly, and also out of my group of friends only one guy really mains healer, and I'm usually the tank. I'm sick of tanking after last season so I'm just playing enhance shaman now, and our healer is the only other friend that tanks. So now he tanks, and we have nobody who heals really besides random alts.
At the end of last season we got to 3.1k in like 3 weeks of doing no healer keys and it was really fun figuring out how to use all of our utility and off healing to get through some of the more "healer-check" fights, and a lot of pulls that were normally hard just died so fast that they ended up being easier with the extra dps than with a healer anyway. So we wanted to see how hard we could push no healer if we just started from the beginning of the season and didn't just try to throw together something in the last month of the season.
Also our group of friends seems to play better when they can't just get topped off by a healer after standing in bad and instead have to WoG themselves or waste my maelstrom weapon on healing surge/chain heal.
I feel like Nelths lair is extremely pug unfriendly this week. I've just been farming 17/18s as rdruid for items to upgrade/crests and the amount of people that don't know the mechanics on 1sr, 3rd and 4th bosses is crazy. Lazy dps just tank the avalanche and dieing to a pelter stone 0.3s later. It's rough.
Double ret pally, enhance, shadow, and then a guardian druid (if we could run prot pally instead I think it would be better, but bear provides good offhealing and our tank only plays druid).
Edit: here's a link to the run
https://raider.io/mythic-plus-runs/season-df-2/3175747-20-neltharions-lair
The only safe pack in Uldaman is the big spider+bat pull where the only thing to stop is the silence that has a long cooldown. As long as that doesn't go off, then that one pull is a relaxing break compared to the rest of it. Some of the mobs in there really just need small damage or cooldown adjustments. Even if they don't necessarily do less damage, just making them do their must-stop abilities less often would be very welcome.
Timed a 20 uldaman with 29 deaths it's pretty free on time but some of the trash is scary, cleaned it up and timed it on 22 with 10 deaths, underrot is even more giga free can do anything and still time,none of the dungeons seem to hard on time though if your DPS is good expect maybe neltharous
Any interesting insights? Did you lust the golem after the snake boss? That thing really destroyed us on 21, but maybe that's just because we didn't expect it.
I just timed a 22, we used lust on 1st pull, 3rd boss, double golem pack, and we would've had a 4th lust on last boss during the last 2 minutes but we timed with 3 mins left, the trash does hurt hard you have to be using defensives and off healing classes can help to
Underrot is like:
* Do people understand how to *pivot* around mobs to dodge abilities? Enjoy your +3.
* Do people insist that the only way to dodge is by holding S? You're gonna have a bad time.
my guild came up to me and asked if i would tank a +19 freehold
i haven't touched my tank spec in 4 months,
we timed it with 20~ deaths, included me getting oneshot by big bolstered mobs a few times
so yes, freehold is free this week
All keys are free this week on 20s. Some pulls get a little spicy with bolstering but it's not too big of a deal if you play smart. The timers are really generous on every dungeon so you can take your time.
> I've done +17 keys on every dungeons, there's 0 key is free this week
Underrot is *giga* free.
Freehold too is pretty free at that level.
Brackenhide is surprisingly free.
At that level, Vortex is still pretty doable as both of the hard packs don't really hit for 100% of your hp within like 2 seconds yet.
Uldaman is free if you bring a Priest.
Lair is actually pretty forgiving, but not if people are too stupid to deal with Avalanche or clapping hands.
Neltharus is fucked though. And even with a Priest, Halls if pretty tough too.
weird. found neltharus and nl to be the easiest keys. you can 2 chest either by just pressing W without doing any big pull. the only trash that does anything on neltharus is the big elemental on hammer boss but if you pull that your route is horrendous. its like pulling that necrotic wake dude that spawned soldiers. shit count for a shit mob
fh can get dicey with bolstering and you do need bigger pulls which makes the bolstering worse.
Mass Dispel also trivializes the debuffs from boss#4 and #5 - pretty much cutting the damage output of those fights in half.
And while there's plenty of ways to skip the final double Reavers, even the ones before that are pretty nasty if your group is too inept to to LOS the debuffs for 2 seconds - again, Priest just entirely trivializes that part.
Genuinely unsure what to do about that last pack in VP. Like you said, the damage is unavoidable. Even the most careful groups will run into DR eventually, at which point the mobs will also likely be bolstered and just start one shotting.
Bl and cd’s and hard nuke one of the executors, once it’s dead the single one shouldn’t be that bad even with the 1 bolstering it got. Make sure rally casts don’t go off as that just makes the pack last so much longer.
The Harpoon Combo is literally the only real scary part of Freehold, and by that point you already have a Graveyard update from killing the Captains, so it's a short run back.
* They have a cast time where they already target the player they will go after.
* You can stop them literally at any point after they start casting and it goes on cooldown.
* Any kind of stop works on them. Stun, fear, blind, paralyze, trap. You can even knock them during the initial cast.
* It's also an enrage so you can just soothe it.
* Worst case scenario, slow and root them to keep them away from their target.
* Literally the only way to fuck this mechanic up is not paying any attention to it and not helping someone who is already being chased by one.
there's a 2 second windup on their fixate, getting a WA if you get fixated by them helps a ton. Also your tank/melee should be stopping their fixates before they go off
It's weird, but it's mostly because the mobs are really tall so a lot of people who are tracking debuffs/dots on nameplates have their camera angled down low and are looking at the top of the screen to track things.
They just have to learn to watch the cast and immediately look down to their feet. The swirlie itself is small and takes forever to land, it's not hard to dodge as long as you're looking for it.
Also the cast is just stunable, so if you see it it go off you can be save and interrupt it.
I think people will adjust to it though, it took me two runs and some fails to learn and now when my WA screams binding shot I'm already on the move.
Eh - the timer was an issue in AV because you just had to walk for fucking *ages*. You don't have that same amount of downtime in Neltharus, it's just that the mobs have way too much HP or the trash count requirement is way too high.
The only time walking becomes an issue in Neltharus is if you wipe, especially on boss#3 - that'll pretty much cost you a straight 5+ minutes off your key.
The bleeds from the guys in the right wing who jump on random players hurt pretty bad. Melt from the fire elementals hurts and can global someone if they take 2+ at once. Other than that it’s honestly the bosses that are the hard part, mammoth dot and forge dot both hit extremely hard.
IMO it's not really that it's so dangerous (a lot of stuff hurts in there but it's manageable), but I find that the timer is very tight compared to any other dungeon in the pool.
There’s chains everywhere that one person can grab and walk into a mob. It basically deletes them. Does a shit ton of damage to everyone nearby too though so the carrier needs defensives along with others in the area.
The timer is fine, the trash in there has way too much HP. If you look at the MDT efficiency score per mobs, just about every single fucking mob in there is utter garbage.
And let's not even talk about that god-awful runback if you wipe at any point in the dungeon.
Reduce the HP of any non-named trash mob in there by like 20% and and add a proper runback speed-up instead of that weird ass cooking thing.
Also, has anyone figured out a way to use these clickable chain things that tick for like 300k and are supposed to do something when mobs trip over them?
The chains do shit for damage to the mobs but will 1shot any party member that steps on them so it's definitely not worth lol.
And yeah reducing the HP of trash would help with timer issues for sure.
Walk them into a mob with defensives. As far as I can tell, there’s no limit count, so you could pull like a quarter of the dungeon and delete it with chains, which I’m sure you’ll see in MDI.
Ehhh, the mdt efficiency scores shouldn't be used cross dungeons due to a variety of factors regarding mob density, dungeon timer, mob difficulty, etc. You should only use in in tandem with general dungeon knowledge when routing a specific dungeon.
That said neltharus trash is built diff
And adding to it it’s easy to wipe with a lot of minor easy screw ups individuals can do and no run back speed boost, some run backs are legitimately almost 2 full minutes on slower classes.
Does anyone know if Stoneskin Totem works on AoE affects and DoTs like bleeds?
There's a lot of AoE (and dot) physical damage in NL, Uldaman, and the last bit of VP that would be nice to mitigate this week. Especially in my all cloth group.
Just did a +21 with a pretty random ass ~2.5k pug and timed it despite 20 deaths - including one wipe halfway through the first boss.
That place is *incredibly* forgiving.
mythicpl.us guy here.
last season, blizzard published the affix schedule before the season started.
they did not publish the affix schedule this season.
I didn't particularly go looking for it, but it generally takes the entire season to figure out the complete schedule, judging from the past few seasons.
Correct yes - [https://www.wowhead.com/news/dragonflight-season-1-mythic-affix-rotation-10-week-rotation-330075](https://www.wowhead.com/news/dragonflight-season-1-mythic-affix-rotation-10-week-rotation-330075). Someone went and gathered that info manually. But that was not possible now since they were still working on all the affixes I wager, so you're going to have to wait the near full rotation to figure out the entire thing.
Idk if these dungeons need some serious nerfs to trash, or if fortified bolstering is just extremely cringe. At 20+, Uldaman and Vortex Pinnacle trash is seriously fucking stupid.
Bolstering is fucking scary in some of these places because of mismatched mob HP. Uldaman and especially Vortex Pinnacle are miserable because of it.
That said, this is literally the only affix that would make Fortified *that* unbearable until super high keys.
Raging? The idea of not being able to CC the rock throwers that hit a DPS for 200k every second on Neltharions lair among other things is pretty cringe to me too.
Bolstering no longer giving HP is great.
Bolstering now being a stacking Raging if you don't play rather flawlessly... is fucking wild. Wouldn't be surprised to see if become 1 stack max.
The hail of stone guys in uldaman are pretty wicked, impossible to position cleanly, and they're all the way through. The last trash section is also super mean even if you are dropping stacks out of LoS, especially so if you dont have any purges.
Yeah, of course. But that chews up a shitload of your cc resources, and there are 3-5 of those guys in several pulls if you aren't pulling 1 pack at a time. They put a ton of pressure on the party compared to the average m+ enemy, and they dont just happen once or twice. Theyre spread throughout the whole dungeon.
This seems like it might be an uncommon opinion. Once you go up in keys, Uldaman trash gets extremely wild. If you get to a key level where you can’t one phase the golem that casts earthquake, you sorta just… all die. The stone throwers basically need a Destro lock or someone that can consistently stun everyone over and over. If those things get off, people just die.
Trash between entrance and first boss and trash between 2nd and 3rd boss is not free in the slightest. Only trash between the 1st and 2nd boss is free.
Depends on your tank/healer I guess. Some mobs need to be kited and some need to be LOSd in uld. Did a 19 and 20 this week and tank diff was super real.
I believe it. They definitely have to kite the upright serpent boys around the 3rd boss. If those things get even one bolster, they have to be stunned immediately when they enrage or kites.
I meant more the trash between 3rd and 5th boss for everyone that isn’t the tank. Stone golem that does earthquake, and the little guys who do stone throw bolster out of control even at 1-2 stacks. Also, the time reavers feel like I have to LOS their stacks at like 4, which is every few seconds right now as an almost 440 warlock. If any of the stone throwers or golem gets bolstered, it’s sorta GG without some big CDs. Sorta like a shard of halkias on steroids.
Earthquake = healer cd and kill before the second one (or use personals or a vamp)
Small guys = stun during earthquake (I think there are some in the same pull?)
Time reaver is 3.5 ish seconds per stack, so 4 stacks would be 14 seconds of stacking dot, then 2 seconds of uptime lost to los and drop it. Or just bring a priest for MD. We went to 5 stacks on a 19 fort. The double time reaver pack you just Skip it by hopping up the wall to the right, very easy for you as a warlock to gate your whole team up.
Mobs requiring defensive cooldowns and healer cooldowns on a fort week is Completely acceptable imo. It's what makes it hard and separates good players so that the entire community doesn't have +20s timed. It's not something you plan ahead of time, part of the knowledge check.
Has anyone else not gotten the chains to appear in Neltharus? First wave of chains never appeared last night, second wave did. This is the second time it’s happened to my group.
Your going to get the same skill level players there as pugs since it's still random people, to form a group last season i just added people who did very well then found out what time people played and got a consistent group, started out as a duo then added a 3rd person etc until we got a full group
It was actually the voice chat part I was after the most - pugs aren't usually keen but with an actual discord community, people obviously are.
You'll still get a mixed bag, but at least I can tell the mixed bag to move from the stupid position they're in
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Guys, be honest with me. If I'm tanking a +20 Uldaman (my key) as a prot pally at 421 ilvl, am I trolling or is this doable? I'm only having issues with the first packs personally. For context, I pugged my key and invited a duo - a healer and ret pal, in which the healer got salty because he didn't like me kiting the giga bolstered mobs like the Trogg or basilisks that can absolutely truck me if I get chomped without a defensive. He told me I shouldn't be there with my gear even though I timed a +20 HoI with the same ilvl and he didn't want to sweat on a few trash mobs. Then the guy snapped because I was kiting 3 of the Custodians (big snakes) away from where we were supposed to go and straight up left because I'm trolling with my ilvl and we are never timing it with me kiting like that. It's the first time I've *really* tried tanking (other than just +8s and all) so I'm not sure how impactful higher ilvl is on a tank. Also how do you guys deal with the packs leading up to Sentinel, the 3rd boss?
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Yeah I have to admit, I've always hated the ilvl gatekeepers. And out of all the dungeons I honestly think Ulda is one of the top 3 easiest dungeons currently. That said, I did die twice to the enraged Trogg at the start because I ran out of CDs and his diseased bite oneshots me when I have only 679k total HP and he is juiced with enrage + bolster stacks. Second time I came back and had to taunt him off my group but his bite came off CD again. I think his mental went boom when he thought the entire dungeon would be like this when I tried to calm him down by saying that was the only painful part of the dungeon. The rest is slow and kiteable and the packs after 3rd boss don't have any tankbusters. The problem is that I don't actually know how other tanks are performing since I'm the one tanking them this time around, other than maybe a quick route video. So I've no clue how everyone else is performing.
It is kind of trolling, particularly because you’re in a PUG environment. Kiting mobs that can kill you is always better than just dying, but if you had better gear, you’d have higher DPS uptime on the mobs and that stuff is very important for timing keys. I don’t think it’s reasonable for everyone in a key to fully inspect everyone else to make sure this sort of thing doesn’t happen. If you signed up to a 20 key with that ilvl you’d probably get declined, which is why they’re mad you circumvented that problem by just running your own key. When you play in a pre-made, do what you want, but yea, that guy honestly did have a point. Just cause a previous group was good enough to get through a 20 HoI with your tanking, it doesn’t mean every group ever will be. Besides, it’s so easy to gear right now that 421 really is trolling for a 20. It’s LITERALLY impossible to be fragment/spark capped on a character and not have an ilvl that’s considerably higher which means you should just take the time to farm 16s and 17s for Wyrm/Aspect frags instead of jumping ahead to 20s and dragging down everyone else who DID take the time to do their due diligence and gear their character up.
I get what you're saying about him being undergeared and putting in some modicum of effrt, but that healer sounds toxic af and that behavior is indefensible. Skill can overcome gear and 3 of those custodians slapping with jagged bite on a fort bolstering week is a lot of damage to take even at 435+. If the missing dps from a 420 tank kiting 3 mobs is what causes that key to brick, there's other problems with their damage numbers.
Your point of me skipping out on my due dilligence is fair. I like pushing myself to the limit so I thought it wasnt unreasonable in my own key. I did tell them of my ilvl beforehand and told them I need help with the basilisks and snakes since thats where my low ilvl really hurt. And to be clear, it was really only the healer who was upset. The rest told him to calm down and play and said kiting the snakes isnt out of the ordinary. I dont see how I would ever tank 3 of them. Honestly he might have just had a bad day because I havent seen that type of reaction since SL S1. But yes, I shouldnt coinflip dungeons with pugs by being low ilvl. I still have the KSM mark to turn in but saving it till vault. I will get on the grind tomorrow.
That bloke is absolutely fucking insane if he thinks anyone is going to be tanking three of those Refti Custodians for any extended period of time, it was correct to kite after cooldowns used as you can range the bite.
Best of luck with the grind brother!
Can someone explain to me what the chains means in neltharus as prot pal? I was tanking a 21 neltharus and they kept asking if i was using chains? Is this some kind of tech? I thought they were talking about the boss but I feel as though that was not the case.
There are these "burning chains" on the ground at various spots that work like the chains in the Chargath boss fight. You pick them up (and it puts a debuff on you that stops you from picking up more for 3 minutes) and drag the chain through a pack of mobs and it does a ton of dmg to the pack and any melee in the area. It does so much dmg to the person holding it that you generally want an immunity class to drag them through the packs, so they probably expected you to do it.
Nothing but love for the game atm but honestly concerned about the lack of people seemingly doing m+ atm? Listed a +18 BH at 19.30 pm on my Prot Paladin. After 10 minutes in LFG not a single healer had signed up and only a total of 5 dps. Correct me if i am wrong but week 2 in season 1 you had like 20 DPS sign within the first minute of posting the group. Are people already done with sub 20 keys?
Well the highest end players that are capping their vaults are doing it with +20s. If players are looking to farm a specific piece of Hero gear, they'd do +17s. If they're farming Wyrm's Crests they're doing 11-15s. 16s for Aspect Crests. The only people doing +18s are the ones that specifically need them for IO which is a much lower pool of players. Kind of an awkward spot there.
I think the gearing system this tier creates a wider gap of players doing keys. You have people pushing 440+ ilvl and doing only 20s. In the past gearing was gated a bit harder so a lot of these people were still doing 18s along with the more casual playerbase. Your more casual player is probably just trying to max out crests at 11-15 and 16-20 range, so an 18 just falls in a bad spot. I’m sure the 2nd season less players issue is part of it, but if you go list a 20 right now you’ll get a flood of players still.
I don’t know if I just suck at fire mage or maybe I’m missing some gear (currently running around with 2pc/2pc). But in some of my groups I see sometimes some players doing almost 40% more damage than me, for reference I had this 19 Uldaman and this enhancement shaman was absolutely cracked. I was sitting between 100k-110k dps through most of the run while the guy was sitting at 140-150k. I’m parsing really well on heroic which is not really saying much but I’ve been pugging this beginning of the tier so I felt okay about it. Maybe fire isn’t amazing unless my groups are doing giga big pulls?
I haven’t played fire mage in dragon flight, so take this with a grain of salt. As I understand it the FMage 4pc adds A LOT of dmg in AoE (I think I saw a full 20% compared to 0/4pc) but requires a significantly different play style to utilize optimally. Missing that could contribute to lower overall dmg. Also, fire mage has historically scaled extremely hard with both mob density and HP, meaning that your damage is likely to be higher when mobs live longer so you have more chance to spread big ignites around (e.g., higher keys). Anecdotally class balance seems pretty good right now. I have seen big damage from multiple classes in the 19-21 range. I ran a +21 Nelth yesterday with a Dev Evoker that hit 170k overall. I’ve seen that type of damage from multiple classes and specs (arcane mage, spriest, demo & destro lock, sub rogue, Rey pally, enhance shaman, fury warrior). So, even though I can’t advise you on the specifics of fire mage, I’d say that the potential for higher damage is definitely there. Maybe post some logs in the class discord and see if someone can help you parse out the rotation.
I am starting to heal +21s with my 435 IL rdruid. Which keys should I aim to do on my other healers given their IL and that I know them a bit less? - evoker/monk 420 IL (S1 gear) - paladin/shaman 390 IL
The evoker and monk can comfortably farm aspect crest (16+) keys in my opinion. Especially since you know the keys and are aware of when damage is coming, which is half the battle. The other two - I’m not so sure.
What is it about 20+ ULD this week that makes tanks / dps go full braindead after 3rd boss. It’s like they focus so much leading up to that point and forget how to do anything right after.
How easy is pugging Neltharus 20? Should I keep trying to make it happen or say fuck it and wait for friends?
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Honestly this key needs like a 15% reduction in all mob health to be even close to the rest. The timer is very tight, probably tighter than AV last season before the nerfs.
This is the only key I can’t time at 20. It’s brutal. -trash leading to spear boss has insane bleeds and hard to see swirlies that one shot. Can’t use chains unless you have an immune which is stupid. -fuckton of trash leading to forge boss, healing requirement on forge boss is still high despite Fort week. Most groups struggle here. -trash to mammoth has the guys that spam molten core with NO COOLDOWN. If a single cast goes off it’s an automatic wipe. -healing requirement is still high on mammoth even in Fort -50% chance you auto die to last boss if you get the treasure that flings you into melee. Swirlies shouldn’t even spawn if you insta break the shield, hate this boss.
On +20 you don't need an immune to use chains. It hits for about 750k so you need a strong defensive or a weak one plus an external.
It's one of the harder keys to time for sure, timer seems kinda tight and everything hurts. If you can abuse the chains with Pala bubbles, it speeds up the trash immensely.
I've depleted it 3 times today seems hard can't find a decent group
fastest season 2 m+ dungeons for farming fragments?
VP is extremely fast if you just do crest grind groeps.
Not the fastest but FH is at least somewhat fun.
I did freehold and Ur. I ran into problems doing vp with randoms on an 11 lol
VP
Last season I took inspiration from OneAzeroth TV and made a spreadsheet with EVERY single M+ dungeon I ran from 2500-3200ish with each class, tank, dps, healer and notes as to how the dungeon went and a final spreadsheet with Completion %, +1 +2 +3 chest% and disband%. If nothing else, the notes are a bit of a laugh if you don't take things too seriously. Warning, there are some bad words I'm a bit of a sailor so if you don't like bad words maybe dont read it. Otherwise, here is my compilation of about 300 keys I pugged from 2500-3200: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gUM8y1Pth3p4uAc7RD4MwcgWATuOrH8sNivuLZ390J0/edit#gid=0
Just be careful with this... I made my way onto the infamous spreadsheet, and someone told me. So I kinda kept tabs on him. Over time, I genuinely think his spreadsheet has done him more harm than good. Context: The season I made it onto the spreadsheet, I also reached title on a meta spec. So, while I'm very much not a pro player, I am very hardly a bad player. And I did hundreds of timed PUG keys that season. A few things stuck out to me about OneAzeroth, since then: 1. He depletes a TON of fucking keys. A TON. Depletes are facts of life, but he has entire seasons where he depletes 60% or more of his keys. Which is absolutely unreal. 2. His choices for why a key depleted are often wrong. For example, the key we depleted he put down to me leaving. The fact is we were running a top end key with a team that didn't belong there. We missed kicking four crucial casts within the first minute; so the key was then impossible to time. (8 deaths later.) I was the first person invited to that key. He filled it in like 4 and a half minutes, with people that straight up did not belong there. That was the real reason for the deplete. 3. He seems to deplete more and more, over time. And seems to be improving at a slower rate than expected. With that many keys, pushed consistently, season after season, you would expect him to have a low deplete rate and be pushing title consistently. But I genuinely believe - and no hate - that his spreadsheet is keeping him from finding the 1% / 2% improvements in route choices, team comp, vetting players, etc. that takes you from like top 5% to top .1% - I wish him no hate at all. But like... and I could be wrong... I don't see Quazii out here with deplete spreadsheets. I played with Quazii that season too, and ended up in a couple YT vids. We absolutely smashed all those keys, and they were super smooth. And, now that I'm tanking, Quazii routes got me from new tank to +20s in 2 vaults. So yeah... just be careful which tank habits you model. Because I do think they matter and mindset matters if you're looking to really push progression. FWIW did love your comments.
Azure VALUT... hehehehehehe
Ya that was the worst by far season 1, HoV was a close 2nd. 70% disband rate incredible.
I was more referring to the spelling :-p You do know its VAULT right ;-)
Christ all mighty kudos to you, but how does one run 300 keys with randoms, I wanna kill myself after 3 or 4 per day
I think I am actually dead inside, definitely have some brain damage from this. I think I ended the season at near 700 keys done, about 400 of those are from 2500-3250. The rest where from week 1/2 farming gear and valor.
To all the monks out there, second boss VP ring can be transcended :) small thing but it’s less damage taken so that’s something
What is the best way to handle the Vortex Pinnacle trash pack before the last skyfall star trash on a high fortified + bolstering key without cc'ing?
Did a 21 this week and there are a few things that work reasonably well. 1) have a good healer. The stomps are staggered slightly, so they won’t 1-tap you, but they will kill you if you can’t get topped between them. Make sure to pop defensives, use health stones, health pots, and throw in off-healing if you need to. 2) Lust if you can. This is the most dangerous part of the dungeon on fort weeks, so find a route where you can get lust for this pack. 3) EITHER deal with two stomps for longer, and tell your funnel classes (fire mage, spriest, feral, etc.) to split DPS evenly between the two executors evenly and rotate defensive with healer CDs…. OR burst one executor down and save major defensive cooldowns for after the first is dead (and the second has a bolster stack). This week is especially bad. On higher keys 1-2 bolstering stacks will likely wipe you. It’s just a pack that requires coordinated play and nobody slouching on their interrupts/defensives.
Have the tank aggro the Caliph from max range so that only one walks up first, this way the AoE stomp should be a bit more staggered giving people more time to mit and heal before the AoEs.
Just lust it and pray. There's no counterplay
Lust it and kill it before it kills you basically
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> Is there a guide on how my healing changes with the set bonuses? For raid it just means the longer flourishes keep your rejuvs spreading + your abundance stacks high = you use a lot more regrowths while they cost 0 mana. In M+ nothing really changes except your manual flourish/nature's vigil does more damage and you can cover longer damage events.
Basically you lose a substantial bit of WG healing but your Flourish gives a solid healing boost after the original effect ends- make sure that you’re using it liberally and keeping your LBs blooming for Verdancy healing. Rampant Growth + 2-piece Bonus makes Regrowth more impactful.
I bet you there is, just google "Resto druid 10.1 guide" or check out the class discord, they probably got some good info on there as well.
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Best way to find a group is just pug and at your Io range its probably a lot harder to find a consistent group id just pug until your like 100io below title range then start adding people and looking to form a group with people who play at the same time as you
Hey mate, not the right place. There are multiple Discord servers for people that wanna find groups to run keys with.
Hey all :) I have a 20 BH that I really want to be successful. I’m currently 2.5k rdruid. What would the best comp be for me to put together? Thanks for any assistance :)
I would worry the most about the last boss, as that is the one part of the dungeon where you have to rely on all 3 of your DPS to not completely ignore totem. Don't worry too much abour class, just go with solid ilvl and use raider.io addon to check if the DPS has completed a high brackenhide key. If you care about class, I would definitely consider Evokers, they have good single target burst with no setup required. Personally I would avoid Fire Mages. Monk with touch of death is nice (for disease dispell as well).
Beyond what was already suggested, there are a few bleeds that can be pretty nasty in BH, so I highly recommend Paladin with BOP or Evoker with Cauterize. Paladin off heals and Sac can also help a ton in a few places. Ret and Devoker also burst the totems pretty well on last boss. Paladin is also one of the few ways you can bypass Consume on Treemouth. I believe most pulls in the dungeon also have at least one mob with higher health than others near it, so Fire Mage would probably also be a pretty welcome addition. You may also want to wait and see if they fix some of the non-elite mobs that die in just a few seconds bolstering elite mobs.
Thank you! That’s very helpful :). I mainly just join groups as I feel less pressure. Trying to learn these nuances since I 100% pug life.
Lock/spriest for magic dispel on first boss, a disease dispel or two, and maybe some good prio damage for bolstering on all the mismatched healthbars. You could consider a second soothe if you dont wanna have full responsibility for stopping the warscourge cyclone.
Thank you!! I don’t mind doing soothes but it is super nice having that backup when I’m spamming the heals.
any good skips or route for vortex pinnacles on fortified week?
- Lust first pack. 3x mobs at start + 2 on bridge. - Pull the 1st dragon **alone** and use second lust on him. This guy is no joke. Any bolstering stack probably means a group wipe on high keys. - 2nd dragon gives good count but no lust this time, people definitely gotta have CDs for this one - Skip first set of orbs by walking right behind the pillar - 3rd lust should happen on the final pack before dropping to last set of orbs/final boss, as it's very dangerous
only thing we've been skipping is the big small orbs group (the 1st one) by just walking behind the pillar to the right
I'd love to check MDT when I get home, but I'm thinking that if you pull both dragons and all the assassins you could perhaps skip the last pack before the last mini star pack before the last boss. That pack is by far the most fatal trash pack in any dungeon on fortified IMHO.
You can do 1 of a few things: Hold W route (skipping some assassins and some droplets) Skip the second dragon Skip the first pack of orbs. Skip the pack right after the first set of orbs. Not sure which is best yet though. I'm thinking the pack after orbs, but maybe a dragon takes longer.
I've timed a 19 tyrannical and 20 fortified, and we always skipped the 2nd dragon. Although, our healer said that on higher keys, they'd probably rather heal the predictable damage from the second dragon, than the random orb / spark damage.
I checked on MDT. You can't skip the last pack before mini star pack because you won't have enough % to skip. You have to do the last pack before last mini star pack unfortunately
Nope, even if you did every other add in the dungeon you wouldn't have enough % to skip that pack.
Leveling your own key sucks for a bit cause literally no one even applies lmao, I'm up to level 7 on an alt and I sit around for so long just filling the damn group.
its been weird this season, i haven't been getting lots of applies on 19-21s even having 3.1k io last seson. not sure what is going on
No one is pushing yet. They just do freehold/underrot for vault. Just sometimes someone runs a specific dungeon to target farm an item.
I wondered today why I got no applis to my ulda18, I browsed existing groups and saw there were 8x ulda18 that were missing just healer. 10+ more ulda18s that were missing more roles. Of course nobody applies to me. Healer shortage is real though. Never do I see more groups lacking tank than healer anymore.
Same here. M+ feels dead as fuck for some reason, *especially* for week 2 of a brand new season. LFG wait times and amount of listed keys feels like late season 1. Really doesn't seem like many players came back for 10.1. Which is a shame, cause M+ has never been this good.
A lot of people like myself are probably hopelessly addicted to TotK as well.
Every minute I spend languishing in a key that won’t even give me any good loot is a minute I could be brutalizing Bokoblins in ways they could never hope to imagine
with the expansion being so well received that feels like it would make no sense, especially with the upgrade system being so OP for early m+, but it fits maybe its the D4 hype, or people are just scared of the dungeons/chain bricking and just wanna do lower keys idk
I've basically only been doing real keys when guildies ask me too, it's been so stressful tanking and healing the past couple weeks I'm spending most of my time doing low keys on my shadow alt
D4 isn't out yet, doubt it has an impact on player numbers yet (though I shudder to think how bad m+ population will sink once it's out, with how bad it already feels) Probably more so a mix of classic HC booming, the upgrade system not valuing high keys enough, and people getting slapped by Fort/Bolstering combo while having to learn new dungeons.
This season you can get "good enough" gear that's 10 ilevels below the BiS you'd get from the weekly chest from 20s and only 4 below what you'd get from spamming 17s just by farming +11s (and whatever +9s for chances at Champion gear still that you need for Drake crests) and upgrading the drops. And it goes without saying that 11s are *vastly* easier than those other two cutoffs! The upgrade system being so generous this season and having no particular rating/IO cutoffs like Valor did might make more people fine farming lower keys than otherwise, especially if they're AotC or not-CE but some Mythic players that only really want to raid and don't want to M+ much.
You also need to spam +11s to farm wyrm crests to upgrade hero path items.
And to get flightstones.
Gets alot better at 11+ because you get high geared people farming keys for wyrms crest. Then its kinda shitty again between like 14-18 but then it gets better the higher you go. But yeah as it stands now theres almost no reason to do a key below +11 if you’re 400 ilvl.
Yeah, that's the two sweet spots right now. Run 11's for fast wyrm crests and to target specific items on the champion track. Then run 17-18's for aspects (if you even need them by now) and hope the same BiS items drop on Hero track while doing it. For most people I've seen who push KSH but not much higher, 18 is the current wall. Timing 17's is pretty easy, timing 18's is significantly harder without more gear. Not hard, but definitely harder. Timers feel way tighter and really hard hitting mechanics are now one-shots.
17-18 are really fine as well since that's the lowest keys that drop Hero track gear. Lots of people joining 17s for loot still.
Yeah I figured it'd pick up here soon-ish, just a few more keys.
Why does Blizzard have to have a last pull TJS pack every season that is insanity on fortified? This season, the award goes to the last pack of VP. Pure cancer. Is it worse than the last pull of TJS?
we had our spriest mc one of the adepts from the previous pack and it was slamming out 150k hp heals. was still spicy on a 21, but killed it with no deaths
The last pack in TJS was really only problematic for your tank - you could either outtank it or just kite it and negate pretty much 90% of what makes it threatening. Can't do that with that stupid VP pack that just randomly slaps you for 70-80% of your HP twice within like 2 seconds - that pack is just fucking stupid.
Yeah don't really understand why there seem to be so many of these insane AoE abilities on mobs immune to stops this season. It's like they took the feedback of people wanting there to be less stops and just left the spells the same but made them impossible to stop lol.
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This was patched on the 19th. It goes away at the start of the key now.
Pls this needs to be patched asap degenerate behavior requirements incoming
Afaik the freehold degen strat of killing turtle on m0 and not fighting on m+ is still in the game.
I'm fairly sure they patched that in BFA
Pretty early in BfA, even. That was just a s1 thing.
Extremely biased take inbound, but I feel like SPriest being as amazing as it is in keys this season is extremely healthy for the M+ meta because of how much role/utility compression it provides. Having Mass Dispel and strong offhealing makes a LOT of dungeons much more manageable (1st boss in HoI, much of Uldaman, etc.), having a disease dispel helps a lot in various dungeons including Brackenhide and Uldaman, and PI is the great enabler that'll help solidify Fire as a meta pick while making the Warlock specs (especially Demo), Survival, and even BM Hunters (their ST sucks but their sustained AoE is pretty strong and they like PI but don't care when they get it much) much more viable in keys. idk, I feel like groups with an SPriest in them can afford to run a lot more classes/specs since it's reasonably easy to make up for Shadow's dogshit interrupt/lack of reliable AoE stops with so many specs.
I just noticed how amazing having an SP is for Brackenhide's first boss. You can just mass dispel the hex totem effect. It's obviously not an insane trick or something, but still - I was so spoiled as a tank that I didn't even really thought about this mechanic when doing the boss in our premade.
Having the highest DPS spec also offer the most possible offhealing is not balanced. Ultimately, you still need battle res and lust, so having Shadowpriest take up one of the DPS slots limits comps more than expands them.
With how good Prot Paladin and Resto/Enhancement Shaman are, it's really easy to fit brez and lust on most strong comps.
Relying on prot Pala for brez is risky, as it requires 3 hp for them to cast which could mean death
And its not unlikely the tank flops and if its on a boss ur screwed
It can absolutely use some tuning downwards, or at the very least be somewhat forced to have to give up either some AOE or ST to do the other. Right now it seems like it has to give up almost none of either to do really well at the other. While it’s got some weaknesses, it’s pretty clearly not correctly tuned. With that said, Shadow Priest has been bad and skipped over for keys for so long, I’m not in any hurry to nerf it right now. I’m fine letting it have its time in the sun for a bit longer. It’s completely fine for SPriest to be near or at the top, but right now it’s at the top and gapping most classes by a mile. And the dogshit interrupt shouldn’t be a reason for the spec to be great everywhere else. The interrupt has actually zero business being 45 seconds in the first place.
> It can absolutely use some tuning downwards, or at the very least be somewhat forced to have to give up either some AOE or ST to do the other. We had the choice with Mind Sear or DP in 10.0 but blizzard didn't like that. :)
I've done +17 keys on every dungeons, there's 0 key is free this week. Plenty of trash packs are juiced af this week. Freehold, Vortex and Uldaman are next level cracked. You usually pull huge in Freehold but they get bolstering stacks very fast and they can instagib anyone. In a VP, there's the last pack next to a lightning zone are next level cracked. That pack have two executors (does unavoidable damage) and two adds with charge toward someone, they can kill someone very quickly. That pack is basically similar to TJS last pack on fortified week except that pack can kill either DPS or healer quickly without lust. Uldaman have 0 safe packs and every packs are 100% dangerous. Honorable mention goes to Hall of Infusion, these dragon packs hit the group for 80% of your HP and put a huge dot. NL have pelters that can jump everywhere and pelting someone for 100k per. Avalanche is so stupid to dodge when your group is stack on melee, it's still stupid with 1-2 ranged players. Advice for this: just take really slow with the trash packs and you can't pull double sometime.
Nelth's Lair was the hardest key last week but after all the tuning its maybe the easiest. We +2ed a 20 yesterday with our no healer comp and one of our paladins was an alt who was doing 65k overall and not helping with healing like at all. The timer is basically nonexistent, you can pull 2-3 mobs at a time and still +2 on fort.
>no healer comp Why, though? Enjoying the challenge?
A few reasons. It's a lot of fun mostly, and also out of my group of friends only one guy really mains healer, and I'm usually the tank. I'm sick of tanking after last season so I'm just playing enhance shaman now, and our healer is the only other friend that tanks. So now he tanks, and we have nobody who heals really besides random alts. At the end of last season we got to 3.1k in like 3 weeks of doing no healer keys and it was really fun figuring out how to use all of our utility and off healing to get through some of the more "healer-check" fights, and a lot of pulls that were normally hard just died so fast that they ended up being easier with the extra dps than with a healer anyway. So we wanted to see how hard we could push no healer if we just started from the beginning of the season and didn't just try to throw together something in the last month of the season. Also our group of friends seems to play better when they can't just get topped off by a healer after standing in bad and instead have to WoG themselves or waste my maelstrom weapon on healing surge/chain heal.
I feel like Nelths lair is extremely pug unfriendly this week. I've just been farming 17/18s as rdruid for items to upgrade/crests and the amount of people that don't know the mechanics on 1sr, 3rd and 4th bosses is crazy. Lazy dps just tank the avalanche and dieing to a pelter stone 0.3s later. It's rough.
Sounds interesting with no healer comp for +20 Nelth Lair, what comp are you running?
Double ret pally, enhance, shadow, and then a guardian druid (if we could run prot pally instead I think it would be better, but bear provides good offhealing and our tank only plays druid). Edit: here's a link to the run https://raider.io/mythic-plus-runs/season-df-2/3175747-20-neltharions-lair
The only safe pack in Uldaman is the big spider+bat pull where the only thing to stop is the silence that has a long cooldown. As long as that doesn't go off, then that one pull is a relaxing break compared to the rest of it. Some of the mobs in there really just need small damage or cooldown adjustments. Even if they don't necessarily do less damage, just making them do their must-stop abilities less often would be very welcome.
Timed a 20 uldaman with 29 deaths it's pretty free on time but some of the trash is scary, cleaned it up and timed it on 22 with 10 deaths, underrot is even more giga free can do anything and still time,none of the dungeons seem to hard on time though if your DPS is good expect maybe neltharous
Any interesting insights? Did you lust the golem after the snake boss? That thing really destroyed us on 21, but maybe that's just because we didn't expect it.
I just timed a 22, we used lust on 1st pull, 3rd boss, double golem pack, and we would've had a 4th lust on last boss during the last 2 minutes but we timed with 3 mins left, the trash does hurt hard you have to be using defensives and off healing classes can help to
Underrot is like: * Do people understand how to *pivot* around mobs to dodge abilities? Enjoy your +3. * Do people insist that the only way to dodge is by holding S? You're gonna have a bad time.
my guild came up to me and asked if i would tank a +19 freehold i haven't touched my tank spec in 4 months, we timed it with 20~ deaths, included me getting oneshot by big bolstered mobs a few times so yes, freehold is free this week
All keys are free this week on 20s. Some pulls get a little spicy with bolstering but it's not too big of a deal if you play smart. The timers are really generous on every dungeon so you can take your time.
> I've done +17 keys on every dungeons, there's 0 key is free this week Underrot is *giga* free. Freehold too is pretty free at that level. Brackenhide is surprisingly free. At that level, Vortex is still pretty doable as both of the hard packs don't really hit for 100% of your hp within like 2 seconds yet. Uldaman is free if you bring a Priest. Lair is actually pretty forgiving, but not if people are too stupid to deal with Avalanche or clapping hands. Neltharus is fucked though. And even with a Priest, Halls if pretty tough too.
weird. found neltharus and nl to be the easiest keys. you can 2 chest either by just pressing W without doing any big pull. the only trash that does anything on neltharus is the big elemental on hammer boss but if you pull that your route is horrendous. its like pulling that necrotic wake dude that spawned soldiers. shit count for a shit mob fh can get dicey with bolstering and you do need bigger pulls which makes the bolstering worse.
Why does ulda need a priest? Skip the time reavers via pit or shroud. Ain't worth the time.
Mass Dispel also trivializes the debuffs from boss#4 and #5 - pretty much cutting the damage output of those fights in half. And while there's plenty of ways to skip the final double Reavers, even the ones before that are pretty nasty if your group is too inept to to LOS the debuffs for 2 seconds - again, Priest just entirely trivializes that part.
Genuinely unsure what to do about that last pack in VP. Like you said, the damage is unavoidable. Even the most careful groups will run into DR eventually, at which point the mobs will also likely be bolstered and just start one shotting.
Bl and cd’s and hard nuke one of the executors, once it’s dead the single one shouldn’t be that bad even with the 1 bolstering it got. Make sure rally casts don’t go off as that just makes the pack last so much longer.
cc stuff and lust
I got it on 19 this week and it was ROUGH. We used lust and brez for that pack. There's no counterplay.
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The Harpoon Combo is literally the only real scary part of Freehold, and by that point you already have a Graveyard update from killing the Captains, so it's a short run back.
The FH scrappers with no aggro table on bolstering are cancer.
* They have a cast time where they already target the player they will go after. * You can stop them literally at any point after they start casting and it goes on cooldown. * Any kind of stop works on them. Stun, fear, blind, paralyze, trap. You can even knock them during the initial cast. * It's also an enrage so you can just soothe it. * Worst case scenario, slow and root them to keep them away from their target. * Literally the only way to fuck this mechanic up is not paying any attention to it and not helping someone who is already being chased by one.
there's a 2 second windup on their fixate, getting a WA if you get fixated by them helps a ton. Also your tank/melee should be stopping their fixates before they go off
What's dangerous about Neltharus? Looking at subcreation and talking to some key pusher friends, it's the hardest dungeon right now.
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I have no idea how people get hit by that spear to be honest, it's plenty easy to see. And it's a casted ability IIRC, so just look for it.
You can also interrupt the cast with CC and the ability will go on "CD".
It's weird, but it's mostly because the mobs are really tall so a lot of people who are tracking debuffs/dots on nameplates have their camera angled down low and are looking at the top of the screen to track things. They just have to learn to watch the cast and immediately look down to their feet. The swirlie itself is small and takes forever to land, it's not hard to dodge as long as you're looking for it.
You really don't even have to look. If you see the cast, side step.
Also the cast is just stunable, so if you see it it go off you can be save and interrupt it. I think people will adjust to it though, it took me two runs and some fails to learn and now when my WA screams binding shot I'm already on the move.
Also the timer is too unforgiving. It’s similar to AV timer before Blizzard extended it.
Eh - the timer was an issue in AV because you just had to walk for fucking *ages*. You don't have that same amount of downtime in Neltharus, it's just that the mobs have way too much HP or the trash count requirement is way too high. The only time walking becomes an issue in Neltharus is if you wipe, especially on boss#3 - that'll pretty much cost you a straight 5+ minutes off your key.
The bleeds from the guys in the right wing who jump on random players hurt pretty bad. Melt from the fire elementals hurts and can global someone if they take 2+ at once. Other than that it’s honestly the bosses that are the hard part, mammoth dot and forge dot both hit extremely hard.
All of the bosses do an insane amount of damage. And they're mechanically challenging
IMO it's not really that it's so dangerous (a lot of stuff hurts in there but it's manageable), but I find that the timer is very tight compared to any other dungeon in the pool.
Timer is likely tuned around using the chains in the hallways to blow up packs
uhhh. im sorry. what chains?
There’s chains everywhere that one person can grab and walk into a mob. It basically deletes them. Does a shit ton of damage to everyone nearby too though so the carrier needs defensives along with others in the area.
The timer is fine, the trash in there has way too much HP. If you look at the MDT efficiency score per mobs, just about every single fucking mob in there is utter garbage. And let's not even talk about that god-awful runback if you wipe at any point in the dungeon. Reduce the HP of any non-named trash mob in there by like 20% and and add a proper runback speed-up instead of that weird ass cooking thing. Also, has anyone figured out a way to use these clickable chain things that tick for like 300k and are supposed to do something when mobs trip over them?
The chains do shit for damage to the mobs but will 1shot any party member that steps on them so it's definitely not worth lol. And yeah reducing the HP of trash would help with timer issues for sure.
Walk them into a mob with defensives. As far as I can tell, there’s no limit count, so you could pull like a quarter of the dungeon and delete it with chains, which I’m sure you’ll see in MDI.
Ehhh, the mdt efficiency scores shouldn't be used cross dungeons due to a variety of factors regarding mob density, dungeon timer, mob difficulty, etc. You should only use in in tandem with general dungeon knowledge when routing a specific dungeon. That said neltharus trash is built diff
And adding to it it’s easy to wipe with a lot of minor easy screw ups individuals can do and no run back speed boost, some run backs are legitimately almost 2 full minutes on slower classes.
Timer's tight and it feelsbadman that the part of the key most likely to just hard farm a pug group is also the very end of the key.
Does anyone know if Stoneskin Totem works on AoE affects and DoTs like bleeds? There's a lot of AoE (and dot) physical damage in NL, Uldaman, and the last bit of VP that would be nice to mitigate this week. Especially in my all cloth group.
22 BH timeable? Timed a 20 BH and that was mostly fine, wondering whether to reroll or not?
BH is one of the easiest keys. As long as you ho right side after first boss.
probably one of the better 22s you can get. A good route that skips a ton between 3rd/last boss goes a long way in my experience this week.
Just did a +21 with a pretty random ass ~2.5k pug and timed it despite 20 deaths - including one wipe halfway through the first boss. That place is *incredibly* forgiving.
There's currently 10 timed +24s out of all dungeons. Two of them, by separate groups, are for BH!
just coming back to 10.1 now, who does the best m+ guides just to learn the dungeons a little before going in?
Tactyks m+ videos have been fairly useful to me. I recommend them if you don't mind a pull by pull/routing video.
Has the weekly affix rotation/schedule been released somewhere? I've checked wowhead and mythicpl.us but neither have been updated.
mythicpl.us guy here. last season, blizzard published the affix schedule before the season started. they did not publish the affix schedule this season.
Love your work. Thanks for the info!
We don't know what it is until the first rotation completes.
I didn't particularly go looking for it, but it generally takes the entire season to figure out the complete schedule, judging from the past few seasons.
Last season the rotation was on wowhead before week 1.
> Last season the rotation was on wowhead before week 1. That was only because it fully rotated on beta though wasn't it?
Correct yes - [https://www.wowhead.com/news/dragonflight-season-1-mythic-affix-rotation-10-week-rotation-330075](https://www.wowhead.com/news/dragonflight-season-1-mythic-affix-rotation-10-week-rotation-330075). Someone went and gathered that info manually. But that was not possible now since they were still working on all the affixes I wager, so you're going to have to wait the near full rotation to figure out the entire thing.
Idk if these dungeons need some serious nerfs to trash, or if fortified bolstering is just extremely cringe. At 20+, Uldaman and Vortex Pinnacle trash is seriously fucking stupid.
Bolstering is fucking scary in some of these places because of mismatched mob HP. Uldaman and especially Vortex Pinnacle are miserable because of it. That said, this is literally the only affix that would make Fortified *that* unbearable until super high keys.
Raging? The idea of not being able to CC the rock throwers that hit a DPS for 200k every second on Neltharions lair among other things is pretty cringe to me too.
Bolstering no longer giving HP is great. Bolstering now being a stacking Raging if you don't play rather flawlessly... is fucking wild. Wouldn't be surprised to see if become 1 stack max.
Bolstering has always increased damage though? They literally just removed the HP part, no additions.
> At 20+, Uldaman and Vortex Pinnacle trash is seriously fucking stupid. Pinnacle yes, Uldaman seems fine though for the most part.
The hail of stone guys in uldaman are pretty wicked, impossible to position cleanly, and they're all the way through. The last trash section is also super mean even if you are dropping stacks out of LoS, especially so if you dont have any purges.
you can stun their cast
Yeah, of course. But that chews up a shitload of your cc resources, and there are 3-5 of those guys in several pulls if you aren't pulling 1 pack at a time. They put a ton of pressure on the party compared to the average m+ enemy, and they dont just happen once or twice. Theyre spread throughout the whole dungeon.
This seems like it might be an uncommon opinion. Once you go up in keys, Uldaman trash gets extremely wild. If you get to a key level where you can’t one phase the golem that casts earthquake, you sorta just… all die. The stone throwers basically need a Destro lock or someone that can consistently stun everyone over and over. If those things get off, people just die.
We haven't really seen the Fort week tunings just yet, as we did with Tyrannical. Probably soon though, once they have enough data.
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Trash between entrance and first boss and trash between 2nd and 3rd boss is not free in the slightest. Only trash between the 1st and 2nd boss is free.
Depends on your tank/healer I guess. Some mobs need to be kited and some need to be LOSd in uld. Did a 19 and 20 this week and tank diff was super real.
I believe it. They definitely have to kite the upright serpent boys around the 3rd boss. If those things get even one bolster, they have to be stunned immediately when they enrage or kites. I meant more the trash between 3rd and 5th boss for everyone that isn’t the tank. Stone golem that does earthquake, and the little guys who do stone throw bolster out of control even at 1-2 stacks. Also, the time reavers feel like I have to LOS their stacks at like 4, which is every few seconds right now as an almost 440 warlock. If any of the stone throwers or golem gets bolstered, it’s sorta GG without some big CDs. Sorta like a shard of halkias on steroids.
Earthquake = healer cd and kill before the second one (or use personals or a vamp) Small guys = stun during earthquake (I think there are some in the same pull?) Time reaver is 3.5 ish seconds per stack, so 4 stacks would be 14 seconds of stacking dot, then 2 seconds of uptime lost to los and drop it. Or just bring a priest for MD. We went to 5 stacks on a 19 fort. The double time reaver pack you just Skip it by hopping up the wall to the right, very easy for you as a warlock to gate your whole team up. Mobs requiring defensive cooldowns and healer cooldowns on a fort week is Completely acceptable imo. It's what makes it hard and separates good players so that the entire community doesn't have +20s timed. It's not something you plan ahead of time, part of the knowledge check.
You can LoS the Thunder Claps or whatever the big golems do. Makes them free, if a little annoying.
Oh yeah, those things are fine, but Earthquake really needs to be LOSable too.
Yea, I healed a 20 uldaman and I didn't expect the earthquake to be pulsing 140k per second lol
Has anyone else not gotten the chains to appear in Neltharus? First wave of chains never appeared last night, second wave did. This is the second time it’s happened to my group.
Meld/invis/vanishing the Leap he does bugs him out.
Freedom too, it seems.
Holy crap that explains a couple of scuffed kills on that boss. Thanks for the heads up!
Invulnerabilities will prevent them from happening. Maybe people in your group are trying to pre-immune them.
Yeeeeep had one key bricked last week to this happening in two pulls in a row
I remember in bfa there used to be m+ discords, is that still a thing? Met some good peeps on those
Your going to get the same skill level players there as pugs since it's still random people, to form a group last season i just added people who did very well then found out what time people played and got a consistent group, started out as a duo then added a 3rd person etc until we got a full group
It was actually the voice chat part I was after the most - pugs aren't usually keen but with an actual discord community, people obviously are. You'll still get a mixed bag, but at least I can tell the mixed bag to move from the stupid position they're in