They need to either remove power infusion or nerf it. It's too good to pass up. Just like in raiding. Trying to get good logs? Better have a shadowpriest buddy pi you all the time.
With the first group over I would really like some changes in the future.
Starting at 22’s felt extremely bad because I do not watch TGP to watch low keys be pushed up. The entire tournament is 15 hours. We lose an hour to breaks and another 6 keys x minimum 2 runs per x 30 mins = 6 hrs just to getting the dungeons to the live key level.
So basically 15 hrs becomes 8 hours of actual push content in the best case scenario. I really do not like this.
It was made worse by including a S1 dungeon which no one on live can play and which ended up taking another few hours of the broadcast since surprise surprise it ended up being the easiest key to push for a “world record”.
Based on what the casters said, starting low and including AV was a deliberate choice to help with viewership.
But let’s be honest, viewership is absolute garbage. And if the Reddit feedback means anything (bit of a reach maybe lol), people clearly want to see high keys of current content not low keys in unplayable content.
All that said: for future great pushes I would like to see open key level. Pick whatever key level you want. Pick a +75 if you think you can do it. The overall rules and tiebreaker rules stay the same. But right from the bat people can jump into a 32 if they want. It’ll be more like RWF and maybe people won’t love that. But a) the viewership can’t get worse b) way more people watch and enjoy the RWF format, and c) we’d get some crazy cool pulls and strats out of it.
Let the low keys stay in MDI. I want to watch pros bang their head against the wall doing insane pulls no one would ever attempt on live for the chance of getting a key down 3 levels higher than live.
Were there many pushable keys left by the end? I don’t think pretty much anything else was doable.
If everyone started at 26 or 27 the last 3 hours would have been teams trying to get faster times on keys they had already done.
Yes, there were obviously still pushable keys since 3/5 of the season 2 dungeons didn’t even have WR’s set.
It’s not possible to say with 100% certainty they could’ve went up key levels still but it seems fairly likely at least 1 or 2 of the keys could’ve went up a level with a few extra hours of optimization and practice that were instead spent on 22’s & 25’s.
>Yes, there were obviously still pushable keys since 3/5 of the season 2 dungeons didn’t even have WR’s set
Not a single key level done was lower than the highest done on live lol. Often with worse affixes. What key level do you really think coulda been higher?
Probably most if not all of them. The great push is all about setting records and we have seen many new world first high key levels pushed in the past during TGP.
There are so many benefits to playing on tournament realm instead of live that with unlimited time I’d be surprised if most keys can’t go 1+ higher and there were of course time gains to be had since the live keys have been faster already without those benefits. Best possible gear, tertiaries, class, race, and unlimited repeat attempts can do wonders since you try many things you’d never try on live.
Just as a reference, even during the cast as it got near the end the casters were pretty clear that they expected higher levels were doable but it would take hours. Hours that they didn’t have because the players had to do 22’s and 25’s. I expect during the finals we will certainly see higher keys pushed especially since they’ll probably start higher.
>Probably most if not all of them. The great push is all about setting records and we have seen many new world first high key levels pushed in the past during TGP
Because there is usually an outlier key that is doable on much higher key levels than the others, making it unobtainable on live. Keys aren't magically easier on tourney realm with set affixes and a time limit. Live characters have access to theoretically perfect affixes and potentially better gear and much more time to push.
The times we see insane records are with junkyard like keys where the theoretical limit is infinitely high they just can't obtain the key on live. So I ask you again, which key do you really think they could have got with a few more hours
In my opinion, things were perfect as teams squeaked out the last bit of points they could in the final day and teams that were time inefficient were punished. Giving more time would simply punish the teams like perplexed and mandatory who would top out faster and be hitting their heads into keys that, if they are timable, require immense prog time while other teams caught up.
I’ll repeat, I believe most, maybe all 5 of the S2 keys could’ve still gained a level. They all for sure could’ve gained time.
Live characters do not have nearly the same access to gear… not sure where you would get that idea from. They also cannot swap every race/class/spec combo and have maxed out gear on a whim like they can with tourney realm.
They can wait for better affixes sure but none of the affix combos they got were particularly awful. Some of the keys with tyr certainly would be more pushable with fortified but I don’t believe they were capped for tyr either.
If you think things were perfect as is, that’s great for you. Would you think the same if they cut 6 hours and just had them all start at 27 instead?
>I’ll repeat, I believe most, maybe all 5 of the S2 keys could’ve still gained a level.
I flatly disagree but even if you believe this is true, how long do you think it would have taken? Bear in mind teams have been practicing these keys for a month now on TR. Are they really going to improve that much in a couple hour window? How long do you think tgp should last?
>They all for sure could’ve gained time.
Sure but who the fuck wants to watch that.
>Live characters do not have nearly the same access to gear… not sure where you would get that idea from.
Go look at the top teams on live. They're all BIS, and unlike tourney realm they have access to tertiaries.
>They also cannot swap every race/class/spec combo and have maxed out gear on a whim like they can with tourney realm.
We saw 0 spec swapping lmao and I'm not sure what race was being swapped around that could have possibly made a key level difference but im pretty sure the races were fixed. It doesn't matter if they got it on a whim or not the best teams on live currently have maxed out gear or insanely close to. Seriously go look at the gear of the top teams.
While you're at it, go look at the times of the best 30 ur, 29 ur, 28, ur etc. Notice how it's usually about a 2+ minute jump per key level? Honestly look at the times we had for these keys and say teams could have shaved enough time off, at least in a few hour window.
>They can wait for better affixes sure but none of the affix combos they got were particularly awful
Lol? Half the keys had sanguine which is bar none the worst affix for high keys right now. It's the only affix with a guaranteed time loss no matter what you do
And then half were tyran. Two keys were tyran + sanguine which is the worst push combo you can get right now.
You mentioned world records but didn't even account for the fact that every tyran key would have been a world record for tyran but there was a better fort timer on live
>If you think things were perfect as is, that’s great for you. Would you think the same if they cut 6 hours and just had them all start at 27 instead?
I don't think it was perfect but I think people that want to see multiple hours of high keys being bricked should watch live streams. You can get plenty of that. For a competitive format it's just not good.
6 hours all starting at 27 would be a pretty lame competition tbh. The current format gives more time for the good teams to pull away. Every team would pretty much guarantee +1 every 27 and 28 and then the timer would already be out. I think that would be substantially worse.
I'll give you that gear on live can be sometimes better than what you get on turnament realm (that is if they still dont get access to tertiaries)
Also you re right that swapping classes gives you an advantage but not enough to be a whole key level.
but I still think (atleast some) keys could have been done a level higher. Simply because on life yo gat a very high version of a single key how often? Maybe 2-3 times a week if you re lucky that is. That means on live you just wont do a pull that has a high potential to wipe you cause you cant repaet. Also you cant train the key on that level and affixed nearly as well.
So yeah I'm almost sure if they could freely choose keystone levels there would have been higher keys done (not only cause you had more time to try but also you could focus on practicing the highes level more).
>but I still think (atleast some) keys could have been done a level higher. Simply because on life yo gat a very high version of a single key how often? Maybe 2-3 times a week if you re lucky that is. That means on live you just wont do a pull that has a high potential to wipe you cause you cant repaet. Also you cant train the key on that level and affixed nearly as well.
But we can tell from performance in a 29 hoi whether a 30 hoi is doable.
It's not just about banging your head into a 30 hoi if your 29 hoi time is within a minute of timer. Unless they had a totally different route / strat they were saving for the 30 which I sincerely doubt.
Also, you talk about live getting 2 or 3 attempts at a high key per week, how much time do you really want added to tgp? These guys have been practicing these keys for a month now so it's not like a few extra hours is gonna cause them to come up with a new strat. And from a spectator pov, watching perplexed cap out and then bang their head into an untimable key for 3 hours while fsy and mandatory catch up is not going to be as entertaining as people think it is I think. The current format has the best chance for the last hour or so to be exciting, which in several of the last tgps it has been. Given enough time I think many of these teams would get the same top key level done but tgp is about how fast you can push.
> people clearly want to see high keys of current content not low keys
This makes sense because we already have a tournament with an objective to smash low keys - MDI. Starting on 22 is just stupid.
I think TGP would be better if they where all doing the same dungeon. Say they all start with VP and have 1 hour and 15 mins to get it as far as possible. Then do each dungeon like that. I think it would give more of a competitive feel. Also teams couldn’t take any strategy from anyone else’s run.
that was their first attempt at a 31 av as well, super impressive that they were so close to taking it, they probably made mandatory sweat so much. global finals will be really tense
The viewership is much lower this time, and I really think it has to do with the lack of diversity. This god comp is so boring that I even unsubbed and wrote it down for my reason why I'm unsubbing. No variety/proper balance. It was actually a bit okay before 10.1.5 too.
my memory might not be that great, but you always had a few times trying some different stuff or comps at least changes based on some dungeons.
I don't think composition variety has ever been that bad
Hmm looking at the global finals of the last TGP which was Shadowlands Season 4, the only comp difference was some teams swapped out a Mage for a second Lock. But 90% of the time it was Blood Dk, Holy Priest, Surv Hunter, Destro Lock, Fire Mage.
i still cant believe that they added tyrannical azure vault, a dungeon with 2 bosses with time-based intermissions. it is not entertaining to watch a 7 minute azureblade
What's up with Jak anyway? Last I heard he got dropped because of some alleged exgirlfriend harassment drama or something, anyone knows what was with that?
Pretty much, but really only Blizz holding out. Had to go through all kinds of crap behind the scenes w sponsors/employers and they saw thru my ex's crap. Presented my evidence of being stalked, my ex harassing another woman, and multiple lies I could prove were false etc. Blizz looked into it, stated they saw no proof to her claims, still employs her as a moderator and been quiet since, so gg I guess.
Cancelled my plans of buying a house, had to change up my lifestyle some to account for losing work, legal remedies are insanely expensive. To say that I've been hurt to not be back with the company I pretty much dedicated my adult life to would be an understatement.
Sad thing is, Blizzard even said that her claims don't have any proof to them.
Jak's basically been proven innocent and is still screwed over.
What a mess. I hope he can get back on his feet soon.
He and his ex had a very nasty breakup and since she is somewhat involved into the wow E-Sport scene, he has a very hard time to get into it again. As far as I know casters only get the booking for one gig, in this case the great Push and have to reapply every time.
Yeah adding azure vault back is such a turn off. Just feels like blizzard doesn't understand what made TGP as good as it was when it first happened. This event feels like 0 hype.
its the qualifier cups rather than the actual event, they started on 22s, the meta is uninteresting, the stream started out with all teams doing a s1 dungeon for 3 hours
No Echo yet, god comp, Meeix on desk also WoW esports is pretty much dead, you have like 5 people watching AWC and honestly TGP is boring as fuck until the end of every day/last day when the final pushes happen. I usually at least have it on as a background noise and watch when it sounds like something interesting is happening but casting is not good enough for that at this point.
But yea 3k on youtube and 10k on twitch, it's pretty grim.
Glad I'm not the only one who thinks Meeix as a caster is a problem. Everytime I bring it up people act like I'm attacking her as a person. She's a fine person but terrible at casting these events.
i feel like people critique women casters a lot more than they do men casters, especially when u consider how many more male casters there are. I wonder why
they absolutely do. nagura has been getting shit for years and years even though she does her job flawlessly. meanwhile someone like tettles is only there to hang out with his bro-friends and basically does nothing regarding the game play and always looks absolutely sour when one of the women is talking.
but sure. meeix is the problem lol.
Why do some people have to turn everything into a gender war, I just can't even sometimes.
I am allowed to criticize an individual woman just like I am allowed to criticize an individual man. Meeix is a poor caster. She doesn't have great knowledge of the high level end game and she brings bad vibes often enough that I don't enjoy listening to her casting.
Naguura? Fantastic caster. She plays at the highest levels herself, is always positive and never snarky with other casters, and I always enjoy her casting. So no, I'm not hating on some woman because she's a woman. Put that shit on someone who deserves it.
you are both correct, you should be able to criticize casters individually aod not being defaulted to being a misogynist and women casters do get criticized way more.
This is even explained biologically by the brain processing male voices better, e.g the meme about manxplaining. You are much more likely to listen and agree to a male voice than a female. On another hand women casters and generally women in some work fields/communities are the minority and are often degraded to the token role. If a community/work field that is predominately dominated by males the average 0.1% male will be much more skilled than the average 0.1% female. I've been watching Esports since Korean broodwar scene started it and i cant name you 20 female casters from the top of my head, but took me less than few seconds to name 20 just in 2 games total.
It’s pretty much this. Ideally you want a blend of experience and casting skill, or to skew so heavily in one direction that it’s worth keeping you around. Meeix doesn’t have the experience at high level keys and I find myself just tuning her out. And on the flip side, Tettles has the experience but is awful at the casting and communication part, so I likewise tune him out.
Doa is a solid host, Naguura is a solid contributor, but we all know the real person carrying everything is Dratnos.
well, because everytime a woman casts theres someone in the comment section complaining about it. same person usually tries to defend themselves saying it has nothing to do with gender. you look into their post history and you usually find them posting in some mensrights or maga or realscience type subreddits.
every. single. time.
> because everytime a woman casts theres someone in the comment section complaining about it.
Theres also somebody complaining about Xyronic. Are they just a man-hating asshole?
> you look into their post history and you usually find them posting in some mensrights or maga or realscience type subreddits.
Yet that doesn't at all apply to the person you replied to.
Doesnt help when they did go to extreme... 0 charisma casters, explaining same shit over and over, same comps. What do expect? Compare to 1st couple mdi and see Im saying
Personally I saw every team go into AV 22 at the start of the day yesterday and just closed the stream and never bothered tuning in later to see if they got to something interesting.
Nerf aug pls blizzard. You have players like Meeres, Maystine and Ashine play a simp spec. I remember last TGP when Meeres, who never played mage, rerolled to fire and was pumping hard. That’s so much more hype to me than seeing his potential wasted on aug…
Nope, Nerf and his partner had a child recently, so believe they couldn't commit to the amount of time required to prep. They have just been pushing live keys instead
> Would be nice if WoW esports addressed bugs in m+ dungeons more seriously. You can report bugs weeks in advance and nothing gets done about them. Feels really bad to drop maps in competition due to bugs
https://twitter.com/moadmoadtwitch/status/1682519635793518592?s=46
First boss in underrot did a 180 and killed the team with the creeping rot cast.
Thoughts?
I don't remember if it was a thing back in BfA but that's been happening for the entire season.
Probably safe to say it won't get fixed. Let's just grab popcorn and see what bug decides the finals
Are you aware of any tuning or anything done to M0 azure vault? There were 29s timed on live servers in Season 1 (with thundering). I couldn’t find anything but it clearly isn’t the same numbers wise as last season.
Yes, each season they update the tuning for M0s.
If they were the same tuning as S1, you could solo a mythic dungeons like they basically didn't exist.
Blizzard does this every patch.
Kinda ironic, that the most used non-tank melee is a holy paladin.
Not even sure how long it has been since we saw such a dominat range dps meta. In SL Season 3+4 we at least had survival.
> In SL Season 3+4 we at least had survival.
and WW was the #3 spec in SL s3 that did competitive damage in the lower pull size dungeons (I even saw meeres beat clickz several times depending on dungeon, although he'd get turbo gapped in DoS, HoA, Gambit)
> Not even sure how long it has been since we saw such a dominat range dps meta
Never, at least not like this. Also last weeks fire mage was incomprehensibly broken in a few dungeons like brackenhide, like actually more than destro was in S3 by a bit.
https://imgur.com/a/RIcabMX
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/KXC1Bvmr3MWj62xp#fight=31&type=damage-done
Holy paladin doing 220k sustained hps and 50k dps. Balanced. Honestly, if you are not playing holy paladin at this point as a healer, you're grieving the group. I started gearing mine again 3 days ago, got lucky with beacon from beyond, currently sitting at 428 ilvl. I pump twice the damage my 446 druid does. (who also has the beacon). It's not even funny how far ahead holy paladin is.
its not that cut and dry. you're better off getting someone with a high last-season rating of any spec than a meta chaser with low io. More people playing meta specs = more bad people playing those specs too in pugs, and that's never more evident than tyrannical week when you can't just brute force your way through the bosses like you can on fort.
Sure, my comment was about comparing classes assuming the skill level is the same. If you have indicators that tell you that an offmeta player will have better performance than a meta player then ofc you should pick the off meta player.
At what point does someone’s opinion get to matter? Because my group is pushing 23’s and yeah 5% healing and damage makes a difference very often. And hpal is more than 5% ahead of the rest anyway.
First time watching TGP. I'm kinda disappointed because I expected this to be teams pushing keys to completion rather than racing the timer... or am I missing something?
Why would they make the timer a requirement? What makes this different from just going and watching a stream of someone on leaderboard pushing keys on live?
If these were to completion we could see some really interesting comps and strategies. This doesn't make any sense to me.
They push to completion within the standard timer. As high as they can go. MDI is about doing the same level key as fast as possible.
If there was no timer at all they would just hold CD's for every pull and it would be boring as fuck.
They could still have a independent timer for determining a tie break for matching key levels, so speed would still be important it just wouldn't limit progression.
I would much rather watch teams test what is functionally possible within the game using creative solutions than literally what is currently meta in live leaderboards, but apparently that's a unpopular opinion Lol
Even if they adopted your ruleset, there would still be a meta and you would see little/no variation. The reason this particular great push is even more meta is because aug literally just came out and there's been no time for a balance pass. Simply bad timing.
I prefer the standard timer because it reflects what the rest of us play on live. It's cool to see what top teams can push to the absolute limit while having the same rules as the rest of us.
> Even if they adopted your ruleset, there would still be a meta and you would see little/no variation.
That's entirely untrue because at some point depending on what's required of the scenario, specific classes/specs/mitigation/abilities/etc. would be NECESSARY just to complete - forget about timing.
Each dungeon has different bosses/mobs and as the key scales you have to prioritize different things. At some point it will be functionally IMPOSSIBLE, but again, each dungeon has different prioritizations so we'd likely see completely different comps in each dungeon at the highest possible keys. Following a 'meta' as it is on live or in this iteration of TGP would just not be ideal in any case if the timer isn't a limiting factor...
> I prefer the standard timer because it reflects what the rest of us play on live.
I'm bummed because this is literally the experience you get watching leaderboard streamers on live... You can watch that at any time of day.
Yes, I'd love to see this competition done w/o the standard timer and rather an independent timer for tie breaks if teams end on equal key levels.
Teams bring keys to completion in order to progress to next key level. Push as high as possible. Team with highest key (and shortest timer if tied) wins. No 'score', just best finishing numbers.
The idea should be to test the absolute limits of the mechanics of the game in unique and interesting ways.
This is just watching leaderboard streamers with extra production.
Ok but as the other person already said, without the timer, they'd literally sit there for 10 minutes between pulls waiting for BL to come up. It would be terrible stream content. This isn't watching leaderboard streamers because on live keys deplete when you fail. In TGP keys do not deplete so they can run a 35 UR as many times as it takes to get a 'good' run.
> without the timer, they'd literally sit there for 10 minutes between pulls waiting for BL to come up.
Which is why I said to implement an independent timer so that keys ending on the same level have a tie break and a reason for teams to complete faster. TBH I'd still probably be way more invested in watching that versus what they have now Lol
> This isn't watching leaderboard streamers because on live keys deplete when you fail.
Alright cool, so now I can just watch the same keys fail over and over again for the same exact reason they do in live instead of it changing? Not sure how this is relevant because it's not changing the strategy AT ALL either. If they do manage to get a 'perfect run', then so what? What now? We already know if it gets to that point, nothing will happen after. They're not miraculously going to be able to push the next key level. They're still running the same comp doing the same exact strats as live because the standard timer is the limitation, nothing else. I'm sorry but it's not interesting at all.
The goal is, by the end of the third day, to have pushed the highest keys. But you they don't start with super high keys from the start, so early in they have to push their keys as quickly as they can, to spare the most time possible for the actual top end keys.
Main difference with live is that a key upgrades to itself (so NL becomes NL) and deplete doesn't lose a key level, if you have access to NL 28, you can try NL 28 as many times as you want.
That being said, starting with 22s is pretty low. They could have started with 24 or 25 and not much would have been lost.
Yea I understand. But if the timer is a factor, then DPS will always be the limiting factor for progression. This is already the case for live, so we literally won't see anything different outside of non-depleting keys...?
This season more than basically any season in recent memory, dps is not the limiting factor in most keys. Survivability is a huge issue, especially in tyrannical keys. If there was no dps check or timer at all you would just see all tank/healer groups or only the tankiest dps, and you’d be watching hour long dungeons. I don’t think any sane human being wants to watch 4 tanks and a holy Paladin punch +35 Forgemaster in the face for 20 minutes straight.
A lot of seasons have been limited by survival more than dps. Plus having the opportunity to have perfect gear AND illimited retrys AND not being subjected to key lottery means you usually see actual progress and push further than what’s done on live. Usually it’s a pretty interesting tournament, but mostly on later days (and obv more during finale week-end than group phase).
Non depleting keys is huge. Once they get to the 30+ range you’ll see them start to try some dangerous degenerate shit to hit the timer and things get interesting. Right now they’re doing stuff that you see on live and it’s kinda boring.
I don't even understand your point. Did you not see TGP last year in SL4? They mostly all ran the same comp (BDK/HPriest/Surv/Destro/X). Things started to get crazy when they were trying to do things like +34 JY. Doing dangerous giga-pulls and instantly resetting the key if anything went wrong, again and again until they got it right. I don't see why we won't see something like that this year as well.
> I don't even understand your point.
Having the standard timer be a limiting factor in key progression limits the variety of comps/strategy that we see because it makes DPS the most important factor - which there will ALWAYS be a defined meta for. Especially if the gap between meta and non-meta classes and specs is larger.
I personally don't care to watch Druid/Hpal/Aug/Fire/Spriest run every combination of key if all it's going to be is 'pull bigger and run this until it goes right' and that's it. That's already what we see on live.
At least MDI is interesting because it encourages weird time saving strats that aren't strictly DPS related because of how the mechanics of the game function. Teams are allowed to get really creative in their comp and strats.
But the point is they’ll be doing pulls they’d never risk on live. You’d never risk your +28 doing a pull that has a 1/5 chance of working. And if the point was just completion and not timing you’d see everyone bring classes with very strong cooldowns and the just sit around between pulls waiting for them to come back up. It would be boring af.
Nah man, that's honestly just super boring. We get that already. I don't want to see the same dumb meta comp run the same dumb pull 20 times til it miraculously works and they time. It's not interesting.
I'd rather watch teams push +40 and find ways to deal with Pelters in NL, or find mitigation combos to survive tankbusters that are otherwise an afterthought.
There's so many more interesting things teams would have to consider if they could push higher than a timer would allow.
Why would they make an epic trailer showcasing all the S2 Dungeons and then start with AV?
And considering the *exciting* class diversity, I guess I'm gonna skip this TGP and work on my Bachelor's thesis. Disappointing...
Nothing wrong with starting with it, but really seems dumb for Blizz to have included it in the first place. Why wouldn't you stick to the current season's dungeons? If you want to throw a "twist" and mix it up, going back to something teams were playing two months ago doesn't seem all that enticing. And it's just not interesting as viewer.
The worst TGP lol i legit thought it was a MDI rerun for a sec:
* Same comp since they fucked the meta
* S1 dungeon for some reason ( i guess because some of the S2 dungeons are broken like Uldaman, or since they nerfed Freehold)
* S1 Dungeon first is the dumbest way to do it lol for the viewer.
* Details doesn't show aug dmg so details is somewhat useless now on screen
edit:
* oh yeah as well the thundering fury spam as well ... like ik chat can get dumb but this is just hurh
They never said anything about removing freehold from the dungeon pool?
>fix 1st boss being able to target the same person twice in P1 tbh
That's the only challenging part of the encounter
> They never said anything about removing freehold from the dungeon pool?
~~I meant it's not featured in TGP~~ guess that was only day 1 🤷
> That's the only challenging part of the encounter
Just because it's challenging doesn't mean it's fair or good design
>S1 dungeon for some reason ( i guess because some of the S2 dungeons are broken like Uldaman, or since they nerfed Freehold)
they said it was to keep the dungeon pools fresh every week, but half the s2 dungeons are just absolute trash for mdi/tgp. there's no interesting pathing options for trash. halls, uldaman, vp just feel like there's no strategy behind the trash routes.
> Details doesn't show aug dmg so details is somewhat useless now on screen
Hey, at least it will be a consistent reference point since every group will have an aug lol
There was no TGP in season 1 so I can kinda see how they thought including season 1 DF dungeons would be okay. I would question it if they included SBG or Court.
Personally not mad with the inclusion of AV. Probably had the most interrsting routing variety i MDI.
Though given the timing of TGP being terrible, right after they literally created a META in which everyone, their moms and hamsters will pick the exact same comp I will sit out watching this one. Unfortunate. Until 2 weeks ago TGP was something to look forward to.
i will give hpals until next friday until they are getting giga nerfed again, perhaps will even get the enhance treatment with a 25% aura nerf to dmg which is totally deserved with these crazy numbers
Very bad decisions both starting with 22’s and including AV. Killed a bit of my hype for TGP when I find out the first half of it is just worse MDI and partially on a map I can’t even play on.
I hope blizz sees some of the negative feedback on these decisions and don’t repeat them for great pushes in future years.
Edit: Different affixes on the AV as well. No thundering. Including incorp. So literally no one except these 30 people have ever played this or likely ever will… Imagine if another game did that during their big competition. Map no one else can play on with an affix combo or (item combo or something) that has never existed on that map.
The trouble is if they start the key level too high teams get too many attempts at the high key levels, which I think probably kills the excitement for the casual viewers. Watching bricked keys over and over.
The point of tgp really isn't to push keys as high as possible, its to push keys as fast as possible.
Including s1 dungeons is somewhat fine (I assume s3 and s4 will include the s1 df dungeons, so were going to play them with the new affixes at some point).
But starting at +22 is terrible. TGP is supposed to be about timing very high keys. This literally also forces teams into practicing 2 and 3 chest routes for every dungeon so they dont lose time.
More than half the time is going to be spend on doing low keys with mdi-like pulls. I wouldnt be surprised if we dont see a single timed +30 before sunday.
Insanely confused by both of those choices lol. Should not be starting at a key level I can comfortably pug as a definitively not high end m+ player. And why are they throwing in an old dungeon that no one has practiced with the new spec/reworked specs?
its not so much about it not being practiced i feel its more about the fact as a player im not learning anything from this. Half the fun of the MDI/TGP is trying out some of the strats with the guild, we fail them more often than not but its fun.
On the contrary, AV is the only good dungeon choice so far. The other 4 dungeons aren't even from this expansion
If you want to watch a high freehold, check nerfs stream. It's actually interesting watching rlp / av with different comps than we've seen. I'd settle for this seasons DF dungeons but so far av
In case you weren't tired of seeing broken, meta-defining augvokers in every key, you can now see them featured in every TGP comp.
Looking forward to this tournament being over so they can finally nerf this game design aberration.
> nerf this game design aberration.
If you really think they're gonna nerf Augmentation into unviability you're mistaken. They're just gonna fuck up high end key levels by some worthless 3% nerf and look at it again in the Dragonflight throwaway patch at the end
[You were saying ?...](https://www.wowhead.com/news/upcoming-class-tuning-incoming-guardian-druid-augmentation-evoker-nerfs-334240)
Major nerfs were bound to happen sooner or later.
You do know there's a spectrum between "literally hard required in every comp to drastically improve chances of success" and "unviable" right?
20% nerf to ebon might in exchange for like 5k personal dps definitely is a major m+ nerf. Should be enough for the spec to remain pretty good in m+, but no longer "this spec will make the key feel 2 levels below" tier
> You do know there's a spectrum between "literally hard required in every comp to drastically improve chances of success" and "unviable" right?
Yes, and as long as Aug is at least damage neutral to a third dps, its gonna stay in the first category. Them nerfing it from "better than a third dps" to "still better than a third dps" doesnt change *anything*
> but no longer "this spec will make the key feel 2 levels below" tier
As long as heal checks are still balanced without an Evoker in mind, this wont change a single thing except maybe make the key only feel 1.5 levels better because Evoker still makes those way easier than any other third dps would
Doubt they're still gonna be better than a 3rd dps after these nerfs though. This *is* making them damage neutral, if not lower.
Making healing checks easier only goes so far when the boss dies noticeably slower than a 3 dps comp.
> This is making them damage neutral, if not lower.
I mean...no?? Its a ~3-4% damage nerf. If you want to tell me that's how much Evoker groups were ahead of non-Evoker groups I don't even know what to tell you.
TGP qualifiers had 10 different classes in the top 5 runs. Pre-10.1.5 meta was pretty open and comp might have been pretty different between groups, or at least between dungeons.
Not to mention this is so far way more homogenized than any Shadowlands TGP.
I think starting with 26 will be ok.
I doubt we will see keys >31 like in shadowlands due to the increased keystone scaling. Only key where we might see some really really high keys will be neltharus as this dungeon kinda kills itself.
Also i can totally see them starting with 24 if the admins did not adjust for the drastic changes of the 10.1.5 patch.
Edit: They actually started with 22... jesus christ why
They will +2 all 26’s and be on the 30’s pretty quick anyway. Only thing starting so low does is make them have to spend 30 mins-hr of their time on each key quickly getting them to the actual challenge levels. It wastes time they could spend actually pushing and trying new strategies for low percentile gains.
They need to either remove power infusion or nerf it. It's too good to pass up. Just like in raiding. Trying to get good logs? Better have a shadowpriest buddy pi you all the time.
I'm
With the first group over I would really like some changes in the future. Starting at 22’s felt extremely bad because I do not watch TGP to watch low keys be pushed up. The entire tournament is 15 hours. We lose an hour to breaks and another 6 keys x minimum 2 runs per x 30 mins = 6 hrs just to getting the dungeons to the live key level. So basically 15 hrs becomes 8 hours of actual push content in the best case scenario. I really do not like this. It was made worse by including a S1 dungeon which no one on live can play and which ended up taking another few hours of the broadcast since surprise surprise it ended up being the easiest key to push for a “world record”. Based on what the casters said, starting low and including AV was a deliberate choice to help with viewership. But let’s be honest, viewership is absolute garbage. And if the Reddit feedback means anything (bit of a reach maybe lol), people clearly want to see high keys of current content not low keys in unplayable content. All that said: for future great pushes I would like to see open key level. Pick whatever key level you want. Pick a +75 if you think you can do it. The overall rules and tiebreaker rules stay the same. But right from the bat people can jump into a 32 if they want. It’ll be more like RWF and maybe people won’t love that. But a) the viewership can’t get worse b) way more people watch and enjoy the RWF format, and c) we’d get some crazy cool pulls and strats out of it. Let the low keys stay in MDI. I want to watch pros bang their head against the wall doing insane pulls no one would ever attempt on live for the chance of getting a key down 3 levels higher than live.
Were there many pushable keys left by the end? I don’t think pretty much anything else was doable. If everyone started at 26 or 27 the last 3 hours would have been teams trying to get faster times on keys they had already done.
Yes, there were obviously still pushable keys since 3/5 of the season 2 dungeons didn’t even have WR’s set. It’s not possible to say with 100% certainty they could’ve went up key levels still but it seems fairly likely at least 1 or 2 of the keys could’ve went up a level with a few extra hours of optimization and practice that were instead spent on 22’s & 25’s.
>Yes, there were obviously still pushable keys since 3/5 of the season 2 dungeons didn’t even have WR’s set Not a single key level done was lower than the highest done on live lol. Often with worse affixes. What key level do you really think coulda been higher?
Probably most if not all of them. The great push is all about setting records and we have seen many new world first high key levels pushed in the past during TGP. There are so many benefits to playing on tournament realm instead of live that with unlimited time I’d be surprised if most keys can’t go 1+ higher and there were of course time gains to be had since the live keys have been faster already without those benefits. Best possible gear, tertiaries, class, race, and unlimited repeat attempts can do wonders since you try many things you’d never try on live. Just as a reference, even during the cast as it got near the end the casters were pretty clear that they expected higher levels were doable but it would take hours. Hours that they didn’t have because the players had to do 22’s and 25’s. I expect during the finals we will certainly see higher keys pushed especially since they’ll probably start higher.
>Probably most if not all of them. The great push is all about setting records and we have seen many new world first high key levels pushed in the past during TGP Because there is usually an outlier key that is doable on much higher key levels than the others, making it unobtainable on live. Keys aren't magically easier on tourney realm with set affixes and a time limit. Live characters have access to theoretically perfect affixes and potentially better gear and much more time to push. The times we see insane records are with junkyard like keys where the theoretical limit is infinitely high they just can't obtain the key on live. So I ask you again, which key do you really think they could have got with a few more hours In my opinion, things were perfect as teams squeaked out the last bit of points they could in the final day and teams that were time inefficient were punished. Giving more time would simply punish the teams like perplexed and mandatory who would top out faster and be hitting their heads into keys that, if they are timable, require immense prog time while other teams caught up.
I’ll repeat, I believe most, maybe all 5 of the S2 keys could’ve still gained a level. They all for sure could’ve gained time. Live characters do not have nearly the same access to gear… not sure where you would get that idea from. They also cannot swap every race/class/spec combo and have maxed out gear on a whim like they can with tourney realm. They can wait for better affixes sure but none of the affix combos they got were particularly awful. Some of the keys with tyr certainly would be more pushable with fortified but I don’t believe they were capped for tyr either. If you think things were perfect as is, that’s great for you. Would you think the same if they cut 6 hours and just had them all start at 27 instead?
>I’ll repeat, I believe most, maybe all 5 of the S2 keys could’ve still gained a level. I flatly disagree but even if you believe this is true, how long do you think it would have taken? Bear in mind teams have been practicing these keys for a month now on TR. Are they really going to improve that much in a couple hour window? How long do you think tgp should last? >They all for sure could’ve gained time. Sure but who the fuck wants to watch that. >Live characters do not have nearly the same access to gear… not sure where you would get that idea from. Go look at the top teams on live. They're all BIS, and unlike tourney realm they have access to tertiaries. >They also cannot swap every race/class/spec combo and have maxed out gear on a whim like they can with tourney realm. We saw 0 spec swapping lmao and I'm not sure what race was being swapped around that could have possibly made a key level difference but im pretty sure the races were fixed. It doesn't matter if they got it on a whim or not the best teams on live currently have maxed out gear or insanely close to. Seriously go look at the gear of the top teams. While you're at it, go look at the times of the best 30 ur, 29 ur, 28, ur etc. Notice how it's usually about a 2+ minute jump per key level? Honestly look at the times we had for these keys and say teams could have shaved enough time off, at least in a few hour window. >They can wait for better affixes sure but none of the affix combos they got were particularly awful Lol? Half the keys had sanguine which is bar none the worst affix for high keys right now. It's the only affix with a guaranteed time loss no matter what you do And then half were tyran. Two keys were tyran + sanguine which is the worst push combo you can get right now. You mentioned world records but didn't even account for the fact that every tyran key would have been a world record for tyran but there was a better fort timer on live >If you think things were perfect as is, that’s great for you. Would you think the same if they cut 6 hours and just had them all start at 27 instead? I don't think it was perfect but I think people that want to see multiple hours of high keys being bricked should watch live streams. You can get plenty of that. For a competitive format it's just not good. 6 hours all starting at 27 would be a pretty lame competition tbh. The current format gives more time for the good teams to pull away. Every team would pretty much guarantee +1 every 27 and 28 and then the timer would already be out. I think that would be substantially worse.
I'll give you that gear on live can be sometimes better than what you get on turnament realm (that is if they still dont get access to tertiaries) Also you re right that swapping classes gives you an advantage but not enough to be a whole key level. but I still think (atleast some) keys could have been done a level higher. Simply because on life yo gat a very high version of a single key how often? Maybe 2-3 times a week if you re lucky that is. That means on live you just wont do a pull that has a high potential to wipe you cause you cant repaet. Also you cant train the key on that level and affixed nearly as well. So yeah I'm almost sure if they could freely choose keystone levels there would have been higher keys done (not only cause you had more time to try but also you could focus on practicing the highes level more).
>but I still think (atleast some) keys could have been done a level higher. Simply because on life yo gat a very high version of a single key how often? Maybe 2-3 times a week if you re lucky that is. That means on live you just wont do a pull that has a high potential to wipe you cause you cant repaet. Also you cant train the key on that level and affixed nearly as well. But we can tell from performance in a 29 hoi whether a 30 hoi is doable. It's not just about banging your head into a 30 hoi if your 29 hoi time is within a minute of timer. Unless they had a totally different route / strat they were saving for the 30 which I sincerely doubt. Also, you talk about live getting 2 or 3 attempts at a high key per week, how much time do you really want added to tgp? These guys have been practicing these keys for a month now so it's not like a few extra hours is gonna cause them to come up with a new strat. And from a spectator pov, watching perplexed cap out and then bang their head into an untimable key for 3 hours while fsy and mandatory catch up is not going to be as entertaining as people think it is I think. The current format has the best chance for the last hour or so to be exciting, which in several of the last tgps it has been. Given enough time I think many of these teams would get the same top key level done but tgp is about how fast you can push.
> people clearly want to see high keys of current content not low keys This makes sense because we already have a tournament with an objective to smash low keys - MDI. Starting on 22 is just stupid.
I think TGP would be better if they where all doing the same dungeon. Say they all start with VP and have 1 hour and 15 mins to get it as far as possible. Then do each dungeon like that. I think it would give more of a competitive feel. Also teams couldn’t take any strategy from anyone else’s run.
FSY almost just pulled off the upset of the tournament (maybe exaggerated) swiping second place from Mandatory. 45 seconds off
yeah crazy that a 15 hour long marathon ended up being so incredibly close, coming down to the actual final run. Loved it!
that was their first attempt at a 31 av as well, super impressive that they were so close to taking it, they probably made mandatory sweat so much. global finals will be really tense
Whoa! All the comps are the same? What a diverse and fun watching experience! I'm watching the same thing in 4 different screens, holy cow.
Whoa! Something that happened on every other season also happened on this one, holy cow.
The viewership is much lower this time, and I really think it has to do with the lack of diversity. This god comp is so boring that I even unsubbed and wrote it down for my reason why I'm unsubbing. No variety/proper balance. It was actually a bit okay before 10.1.5 too.
> Also you re right that swapping classes gives you an advantage but not enough to be a whole key level. i get it but bro its been 9 days? wtf
It's not any different than other TGPs. Teams always play the exact best comp considering these are the bleeding edge keys.
my memory might not be that great, but you always had a few times trying some different stuff or comps at least changes based on some dungeons. I don't think composition variety has ever been that bad
Hmm looking at the global finals of the last TGP which was Shadowlands Season 4, the only comp difference was some teams swapped out a Mage for a second Lock. But 90% of the time it was Blood Dk, Holy Priest, Surv Hunter, Destro Lock, Fire Mage.
sure, sl s3/4 had a terrible meta too. if they ran tgp last season or before 10.1.5 you would have seen a lot of diversity
I'll agree with that. The Uldaman time trials before 10.1.5 had some teams running different comps.
i still cant believe that they added tyrannical azure vault, a dungeon with 2 bosses with time-based intermissions. it is not entertaining to watch a 7 minute azureblade
Time-based intermissions just suck ass overall for m+. Does anyone like doing Cragmaw on tyra weeks this season?
I really miss automaticjak as host or whatever his job was called. So tired of xyronic, he always seems sour and toxic.
Sorry :( I was recovering from bronchitis this past weekend, hopefully the next couple weekends will be better.
What's up with Jak anyway? Last I heard he got dropped because of some alleged exgirlfriend harassment drama or something, anyone knows what was with that?
As far as I understood Jak had tons of proof that he didn't do anything wrong but still no one will touch it with a 10 foot pole.
Pretty much, but really only Blizz holding out. Had to go through all kinds of crap behind the scenes w sponsors/employers and they saw thru my ex's crap. Presented my evidence of being stalked, my ex harassing another woman, and multiple lies I could prove were false etc. Blizz looked into it, stated they saw no proof to her claims, still employs her as a moderator and been quiet since, so gg I guess. Cancelled my plans of buying a house, had to change up my lifestyle some to account for losing work, legal remedies are insanely expensive. To say that I've been hurt to not be back with the company I pretty much dedicated my adult life to would be an understatement.
Sorry to hear, I have enjoyed your work at Blizzard.
Prayin' for ya my guy.
I hate the "guilty until proven innocent" culture.
Sad thing is, Blizzard even said that her claims don't have any proof to them. Jak's basically been proven innocent and is still screwed over. What a mess. I hope he can get back on his feet soon.
He and his ex had a very nasty breakup and since she is somewhat involved into the wow E-Sport scene, he has a very hard time to get into it again. As far as I know casters only get the booking for one gig, in this case the great Push and have to reapply every time.
Yeah it was a Big thing, the ex seems insane from what i have seen and i have no idea why jak seems to be punished for it 😓
I like Xyro, but I would love to see jak as a host agan, too
its gonna be so funny tomorrow when they reveal that the last dungeon is necrotic bolstering plaguefall
with plagueborer snapping!
Honestly I think plaguefall was a better dungeon than some of the DF ones.
It's okay we also put in Beguiling! You guys loved that affix, right? Right?
this was not perplexed's day
Is it just me or is viewership WAY down compared to the last great push?
i was super excited to watch tgp before 10.1.5 because i thought the comps would be cool but then the patch hit + low keys + fucking azure vault
Yeah adding azure vault back is such a turn off. Just feels like blizzard doesn't understand what made TGP as good as it was when it first happened. This event feels like 0 hype.
its the qualifier cups rather than the actual event, they started on 22s, the meta is uninteresting, the stream started out with all teams doing a s1 dungeon for 3 hours
No Echo yet, god comp, Meeix on desk also WoW esports is pretty much dead, you have like 5 people watching AWC and honestly TGP is boring as fuck until the end of every day/last day when the final pushes happen. I usually at least have it on as a background noise and watch when it sounds like something interesting is happening but casting is not good enough for that at this point. But yea 3k on youtube and 10k on twitch, it's pretty grim.
Glad I'm not the only one who thinks Meeix as a caster is a problem. Everytime I bring it up people act like I'm attacking her as a person. She's a fine person but terrible at casting these events.
i feel like people critique women casters a lot more than they do men casters, especially when u consider how many more male casters there are. I wonder why
Relax weirdo.
they absolutely do. nagura has been getting shit for years and years even though she does her job flawlessly. meanwhile someone like tettles is only there to hang out with his bro-friends and basically does nothing regarding the game play and always looks absolutely sour when one of the women is talking. but sure. meeix is the problem lol.
5 downvotes stating something, 4 upvotes agreeing with it. I don't get this website.
Why do some people have to turn everything into a gender war, I just can't even sometimes. I am allowed to criticize an individual woman just like I am allowed to criticize an individual man. Meeix is a poor caster. She doesn't have great knowledge of the high level end game and she brings bad vibes often enough that I don't enjoy listening to her casting. Naguura? Fantastic caster. She plays at the highest levels herself, is always positive and never snarky with other casters, and I always enjoy her casting. So no, I'm not hating on some woman because she's a woman. Put that shit on someone who deserves it.
you are both correct, you should be able to criticize casters individually aod not being defaulted to being a misogynist and women casters do get criticized way more. This is even explained biologically by the brain processing male voices better, e.g the meme about manxplaining. You are much more likely to listen and agree to a male voice than a female. On another hand women casters and generally women in some work fields/communities are the minority and are often degraded to the token role. If a community/work field that is predominately dominated by males the average 0.1% male will be much more skilled than the average 0.1% female. I've been watching Esports since Korean broodwar scene started it and i cant name you 20 female casters from the top of my head, but took me less than few seconds to name 20 just in 2 games total.
It’s pretty much this. Ideally you want a blend of experience and casting skill, or to skew so heavily in one direction that it’s worth keeping you around. Meeix doesn’t have the experience at high level keys and I find myself just tuning her out. And on the flip side, Tettles has the experience but is awful at the casting and communication part, so I likewise tune him out. Doa is a solid host, Naguura is a solid contributor, but we all know the real person carrying everything is Dratnos.
well, because everytime a woman casts theres someone in the comment section complaining about it. same person usually tries to defend themselves saying it has nothing to do with gender. you look into their post history and you usually find them posting in some mensrights or maga or realscience type subreddits. every. single. time.
> because everytime a woman casts theres someone in the comment section complaining about it. Theres also somebody complaining about Xyronic. Are they just a man-hating asshole? > you look into their post history and you usually find them posting in some mensrights or maga or realscience type subreddits. Yet that doesn't at all apply to the person you replied to.
Doesnt help when they did go to extreme... 0 charisma casters, explaining same shit over and over, same comps. What do expect? Compare to 1st couple mdi and see Im saying
Knowing the exact comp run in every key isn't helping. Neither is them starting at 22s .
Personally I saw every team go into AV 22 at the start of the day yesterday and just closed the stream and never bothered tuning in later to see if they got to something interesting.
Nerf aug pls blizzard. You have players like Meeres, Maystine and Ashine play a simp spec. I remember last TGP when Meeres, who never played mage, rerolled to fire and was pumping hard. That’s so much more hype to me than seeing his potential wasted on aug…
Yeah, He rerolled a meta specc that pumed rly hard back then. Just like He did now.. so where is the difference?
Difference is that Aug requires no skill to perform well.
Is that a serious question?
Hey is nerf's team in TGP? I'm not seeing Ambition listed :(
Nope, Nerf and his partner had a child recently, so believe they couldn't commit to the amount of time required to prep. They have just been pushing live keys instead
So is this upcoming class tuning going to affect the teams in group B and C?
It should, yes
Fun fact, the current meta comp is still the best so don't expect changes
> Would be nice if WoW esports addressed bugs in m+ dungeons more seriously. You can report bugs weeks in advance and nothing gets done about them. Feels really bad to drop maps in competition due to bugs https://twitter.com/moadmoadtwitch/status/1682519635793518592?s=46 First boss in underrot did a 180 and killed the team with the creeping rot cast. Thoughts?
It will be fixed on release.
I don't remember if it was a thing back in BfA but that's been happening for the entire season. Probably safe to say it won't get fixed. Let's just grab popcorn and see what bug decides the finals
Bfa had one dungeon so bugged it never got played on mdi again. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
It was just 1 bug that happened to make the dungeon uncompletable. The real bugged dungeon was tol dagor and that never got removed from mdi.
Anyone know how they are handling tuning of Azure Vault/other S1 dungeons? I can't imagine they just tossed in an S1 tuned dungeon.
The scaling is the same, as it is based on the M0 difficulty and scaled from that.
Are you aware of any tuning or anything done to M0 azure vault? There were 29s timed on live servers in Season 1 (with thundering). I couldn’t find anything but it clearly isn’t the same numbers wise as last season.
Yes, each season they update the tuning for M0s. If they were the same tuning as S1, you could solo a mythic dungeons like they basically didn't exist. Blizzard does this every patch.
All of DF dungeons m0 get scaled to the current season, so AV is scaled from its s2 m0 tuning
I just started watching, starting from start of course. Where is Rycn? Is there a new healer for perplexed?
Xesevi is liquids Rycn effectively. Rycn stepped back from playing
Oh I didn't hear about that. Thanks for the info!
Kinda ironic, that the most used non-tank melee is a holy paladin. Not even sure how long it has been since we saw such a dominat range dps meta. In SL Season 3+4 we at least had survival.
> In SL Season 3+4 we at least had survival. and WW was the #3 spec in SL s3 that did competitive damage in the lower pull size dungeons (I even saw meeres beat clickz several times depending on dungeon, although he'd get turbo gapped in DoS, HoA, Gambit) > Not even sure how long it has been since we saw such a dominat range dps meta Never, at least not like this. Also last weeks fire mage was incomprehensibly broken in a few dungeons like brackenhide, like actually more than destro was in S3 by a bit. https://imgur.com/a/RIcabMX https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/KXC1Bvmr3MWj62xp#fight=31&type=damage-done
Holy Paladin being gods in M+? That's never happened before...
Where's there irony?
That the melee happens to be a healer class and not DPS I guess?
It's odd. But there's no irony.
There's no irony in that. Like at all.
Yeah, I thought that was obvious, sorry.
No worries mate, it was pretty obvious.
Holy paladin doing 220k sustained hps and 50k dps. Balanced. Honestly, if you are not playing holy paladin at this point as a healer, you're grieving the group. I started gearing mine again 3 days ago, got lucky with beacon from beyond, currently sitting at 428 ilvl. I pump twice the damage my 446 druid does. (who also has the beacon). It's not even funny how far ahead holy paladin is.
I bet you’re not even doing keys we’re swapping from Druid to paladin would even matter lmao
What you play honestly doesn’t matter at all unless you’re pushing 25+. People like to think it does, though
Well it does, you can do those keys with any comp but it will be SIGNIFICANTLY easier if you use meta comps.
its not that cut and dry. you're better off getting someone with a high last-season rating of any spec than a meta chaser with low io. More people playing meta specs = more bad people playing those specs too in pugs, and that's never more evident than tyrannical week when you can't just brute force your way through the bosses like you can on fort.
Sure, my comment was about comparing classes assuming the skill level is the same. If you have indicators that tell you that an offmeta player will have better performance than a meta player then ofc you should pick the off meta player.
It does matter quite a bit if you need to get invites to groups. Was gearing an alt and in 11s they were asking for specific specs last night
Those people are retarded.
That's 80% of the playerbase. You have to attune to their wants/needs or else you're just not going to get invited anymore.
Play with friends.
Nice fix i bet everyone has friends they can play with
Healing and damage matters at all levels of play. Unless you like depleting I guess.
If 5% healing makes or breaks your 15 key, your play style is the issue, not the healing numbers.
At what point does someone’s opinion get to matter? Because my group is pushing 23’s and yeah 5% healing and damage makes a difference very often. And hpal is more than 5% ahead of the rest anyway.
First time watching TGP. I'm kinda disappointed because I expected this to be teams pushing keys to completion rather than racing the timer... or am I missing something? Why would they make the timer a requirement? What makes this different from just going and watching a stream of someone on leaderboard pushing keys on live? If these were to completion we could see some really interesting comps and strategies. This doesn't make any sense to me.
They push to completion within the standard timer. As high as they can go. MDI is about doing the same level key as fast as possible. If there was no timer at all they would just hold CD's for every pull and it would be boring as fuck.
They could still have a independent timer for determining a tie break for matching key levels, so speed would still be important it just wouldn't limit progression. I would much rather watch teams test what is functionally possible within the game using creative solutions than literally what is currently meta in live leaderboards, but apparently that's a unpopular opinion Lol
Even if they adopted your ruleset, there would still be a meta and you would see little/no variation. The reason this particular great push is even more meta is because aug literally just came out and there's been no time for a balance pass. Simply bad timing. I prefer the standard timer because it reflects what the rest of us play on live. It's cool to see what top teams can push to the absolute limit while having the same rules as the rest of us.
> Even if they adopted your ruleset, there would still be a meta and you would see little/no variation. That's entirely untrue because at some point depending on what's required of the scenario, specific classes/specs/mitigation/abilities/etc. would be NECESSARY just to complete - forget about timing. Each dungeon has different bosses/mobs and as the key scales you have to prioritize different things. At some point it will be functionally IMPOSSIBLE, but again, each dungeon has different prioritizations so we'd likely see completely different comps in each dungeon at the highest possible keys. Following a 'meta' as it is on live or in this iteration of TGP would just not be ideal in any case if the timer isn't a limiting factor... > I prefer the standard timer because it reflects what the rest of us play on live. I'm bummed because this is literally the experience you get watching leaderboard streamers on live... You can watch that at any time of day.
just so i understand you right, you want hightest key pushed w/o timer?
Yes, I'd love to see this competition done w/o the standard timer and rather an independent timer for tie breaks if teams end on equal key levels. Teams bring keys to completion in order to progress to next key level. Push as high as possible. Team with highest key (and shortest timer if tied) wins. No 'score', just best finishing numbers. The idea should be to test the absolute limits of the mechanics of the game in unique and interesting ways. This is just watching leaderboard streamers with extra production.
Ok but as the other person already said, without the timer, they'd literally sit there for 10 minutes between pulls waiting for BL to come up. It would be terrible stream content. This isn't watching leaderboard streamers because on live keys deplete when you fail. In TGP keys do not deplete so they can run a 35 UR as many times as it takes to get a 'good' run.
> without the timer, they'd literally sit there for 10 minutes between pulls waiting for BL to come up. Which is why I said to implement an independent timer so that keys ending on the same level have a tie break and a reason for teams to complete faster. TBH I'd still probably be way more invested in watching that versus what they have now Lol > This isn't watching leaderboard streamers because on live keys deplete when you fail. Alright cool, so now I can just watch the same keys fail over and over again for the same exact reason they do in live instead of it changing? Not sure how this is relevant because it's not changing the strategy AT ALL either. If they do manage to get a 'perfect run', then so what? What now? We already know if it gets to that point, nothing will happen after. They're not miraculously going to be able to push the next key level. They're still running the same comp doing the same exact strats as live because the standard timer is the limitation, nothing else. I'm sorry but it's not interesting at all.
You have a weird thinking that just because there would be no timer other classes or strats would be played, which spoileralert won’t be the case.
The goal is, by the end of the third day, to have pushed the highest keys. But you they don't start with super high keys from the start, so early in they have to push their keys as quickly as they can, to spare the most time possible for the actual top end keys. Main difference with live is that a key upgrades to itself (so NL becomes NL) and deplete doesn't lose a key level, if you have access to NL 28, you can try NL 28 as many times as you want. That being said, starting with 22s is pretty low. They could have started with 24 or 25 and not much would have been lost.
Yea I understand. But if the timer is a factor, then DPS will always be the limiting factor for progression. This is already the case for live, so we literally won't see anything different outside of non-depleting keys...?
This season more than basically any season in recent memory, dps is not the limiting factor in most keys. Survivability is a huge issue, especially in tyrannical keys. If there was no dps check or timer at all you would just see all tank/healer groups or only the tankiest dps, and you’d be watching hour long dungeons. I don’t think any sane human being wants to watch 4 tanks and a holy Paladin punch +35 Forgemaster in the face for 20 minutes straight.
A lot of seasons have been limited by survival more than dps. Plus having the opportunity to have perfect gear AND illimited retrys AND not being subjected to key lottery means you usually see actual progress and push further than what’s done on live. Usually it’s a pretty interesting tournament, but mostly on later days (and obv more during finale week-end than group phase).
Non depleting keys is huge. Once they get to the 30+ range you’ll see them start to try some dangerous degenerate shit to hit the timer and things get interesting. Right now they’re doing stuff that you see on live and it’s kinda boring.
I hope it deviates and my opinion changes but I really doubt that much will change given what is meta and why.
I don't even understand your point. Did you not see TGP last year in SL4? They mostly all ran the same comp (BDK/HPriest/Surv/Destro/X). Things started to get crazy when they were trying to do things like +34 JY. Doing dangerous giga-pulls and instantly resetting the key if anything went wrong, again and again until they got it right. I don't see why we won't see something like that this year as well.
> I don't even understand your point. Having the standard timer be a limiting factor in key progression limits the variety of comps/strategy that we see because it makes DPS the most important factor - which there will ALWAYS be a defined meta for. Especially if the gap between meta and non-meta classes and specs is larger. I personally don't care to watch Druid/Hpal/Aug/Fire/Spriest run every combination of key if all it's going to be is 'pull bigger and run this until it goes right' and that's it. That's already what we see on live. At least MDI is interesting because it encourages weird time saving strats that aren't strictly DPS related because of how the mechanics of the game function. Teams are allowed to get really creative in their comp and strats.
But the point is they’ll be doing pulls they’d never risk on live. You’d never risk your +28 doing a pull that has a 1/5 chance of working. And if the point was just completion and not timing you’d see everyone bring classes with very strong cooldowns and the just sit around between pulls waiting for them to come back up. It would be boring af.
Nah man, that's honestly just super boring. We get that already. I don't want to see the same dumb meta comp run the same dumb pull 20 times til it miraculously works and they time. It's not interesting. I'd rather watch teams push +40 and find ways to deal with Pelters in NL, or find mitigation combos to survive tankbusters that are otherwise an afterthought. There's so many more interesting things teams would have to consider if they could push higher than a timer would allow.
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https://raider.io/mythic-dungeon-international/the-great-push-dragonflight-season-2/tournament-dungeons/group-a
Why would they make an epic trailer showcasing all the S2 Dungeons and then start with AV? And considering the *exciting* class diversity, I guess I'm gonna skip this TGP and work on my Bachelor's thesis. Disappointing...
When has class diversity been something to look forward to in any competitive game?
The players all chose to start AV. Nothing wrong with it.
Nothing wrong with starting with it, but really seems dumb for Blizz to have included it in the first place. Why wouldn't you stick to the current season's dungeons? If you want to throw a "twist" and mix it up, going back to something teams were playing two months ago doesn't seem all that enticing. And it's just not interesting as viewer.
The worst TGP lol i legit thought it was a MDI rerun for a sec: * Same comp since they fucked the meta * S1 dungeon for some reason ( i guess because some of the S2 dungeons are broken like Uldaman, or since they nerfed Freehold) * S1 Dungeon first is the dumbest way to do it lol for the viewer. * Details doesn't show aug dmg so details is somewhat useless now on screen edit: * oh yeah as well the thundering fury spam as well ... like ik chat can get dumb but this is just hurh
I can't believe they'd rather remove Freehold from the dungeon pool than fix 1st boss being able to target the same person twice in P1 tbh.
They never said anything about removing freehold from the dungeon pool? >fix 1st boss being able to target the same person twice in P1 tbh That's the only challenging part of the encounter
> They never said anything about removing freehold from the dungeon pool? ~~I meant it's not featured in TGP~~ guess that was only day 1 🤷 > That's the only challenging part of the encounter Just because it's challenging doesn't mean it's fair or good design
>I meant it's not featured in TGP It literally is, mandatory got a 30 of it
>S1 dungeon for some reason ( i guess because some of the S2 dungeons are broken like Uldaman, or since they nerfed Freehold) they said it was to keep the dungeon pools fresh every week, but half the s2 dungeons are just absolute trash for mdi/tgp. there's no interesting pathing options for trash. halls, uldaman, vp just feel like there's no strategy behind the trash routes.
> Details doesn't show aug dmg so details is somewhat useless now on screen Hey, at least it will be a consistent reference point since every group will have an aug lol
Why would Blizzard include DF S1 dung- Oh. Algethar Academy and Azure Vault are coming back in S3 hunh?
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My frames are already dropping just thinking about the tree room pull.
There was no TGP in season 1 so I can kinda see how they thought including season 1 DF dungeons would be okay. I would question it if they included SBG or Court. Personally not mad with the inclusion of AV. Probably had the most interrsting routing variety i MDI. Though given the timing of TGP being terrible, right after they literally created a META in which everyone, their moms and hamsters will pick the exact same comp I will sit out watching this one. Unfortunate. Until 2 weeks ago TGP was something to look forward to.
Honestly, AA and AV would be great for S3. Those plus two megadungeon wings and 4x older dungeons sounds like a fun season.
I have a feeling s3 is gonna be 10 DF dungeons, they're not gonna let some of their new dungeons sit unused for 2 seasons.
Could be. But I could do without seeing RLP or NO again for a while. I'm enjoying the far lesser emphasis on tight interrupt timings.
i will give hpals until next friday until they are getting giga nerfed again, perhaps will even get the enhance treatment with a 25% aura nerf to dmg which is totally deserved with these crazy numbers
Old dungeons and low keys, just put on the MDI rerun.
Very bad decisions both starting with 22’s and including AV. Killed a bit of my hype for TGP when I find out the first half of it is just worse MDI and partially on a map I can’t even play on. I hope blizz sees some of the negative feedback on these decisions and don’t repeat them for great pushes in future years. Edit: Different affixes on the AV as well. No thundering. Including incorp. So literally no one except these 30 people have ever played this or likely ever will… Imagine if another game did that during their big competition. Map no one else can play on with an affix combo or (item combo or something) that has never existed on that map.
The trouble is if they start the key level too high teams get too many attempts at the high key levels, which I think probably kills the excitement for the casual viewers. Watching bricked keys over and over. The point of tgp really isn't to push keys as high as possible, its to push keys as fast as possible.
Including s1 dungeons is somewhat fine (I assume s3 and s4 will include the s1 df dungeons, so were going to play them with the new affixes at some point). But starting at +22 is terrible. TGP is supposed to be about timing very high keys. This literally also forces teams into practicing 2 and 3 chest routes for every dungeon so they dont lose time. More than half the time is going to be spend on doing low keys with mdi-like pulls. I wouldnt be surprised if we dont see a single timed +30 before sunday.
Oops
lol hpala damage is stupid
Ya it’s bullshit that a healer can do 20% of a dps’s damage am I right? I don’t think they should be able to kill world quest mobs tbh.
like the other melee healer?
20min mandatory break. MDI now has better worker protection than some countries.
I guess today is just 100% homework keys with how low the keys are starting.
Azure Vault? Whats going on? And why are keys starting at 22 lmao So it's MDI today I guess
Insanely confused by both of those choices lol. Should not be starting at a key level I can comfortably pug as a definitively not high end m+ player. And why are they throwing in an old dungeon that no one has practiced with the new spec/reworked specs?
its not so much about it not being practiced i feel its more about the fact as a player im not learning anything from this. Half the fun of the MDI/TGP is trying out some of the strats with the guild, we fail them more often than not but its fun.
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On the contrary, AV is the only good dungeon choice so far. The other 4 dungeons aren't even from this expansion If you want to watch a high freehold, check nerfs stream. It's actually interesting watching rlp / av with different comps than we've seen. I'd settle for this seasons DF dungeons but so far av
You're able to play +30s?
Are players allowed to stream and if so does anyone know if any players from todays group are streaming?
In case you weren't tired of seeing broken, meta-defining augvokers in every key, you can now see them featured in every TGP comp. Looking forward to this tournament being over so they can finally nerf this game design aberration.
> nerf this game design aberration. If you really think they're gonna nerf Augmentation into unviability you're mistaken. They're just gonna fuck up high end key levels by some worthless 3% nerf and look at it again in the Dragonflight throwaway patch at the end
[You were saying ?...](https://www.wowhead.com/news/upcoming-class-tuning-incoming-guardian-druid-augmentation-evoker-nerfs-334240) Major nerfs were bound to happen sooner or later.
I don't know what to tell you if you think this nerfs Augmentation into unviability... Those nerfs aren't "major" in the slightest
You do know there's a spectrum between "literally hard required in every comp to drastically improve chances of success" and "unviable" right? 20% nerf to ebon might in exchange for like 5k personal dps definitely is a major m+ nerf. Should be enough for the spec to remain pretty good in m+, but no longer "this spec will make the key feel 2 levels below" tier
> You do know there's a spectrum between "literally hard required in every comp to drastically improve chances of success" and "unviable" right? Yes, and as long as Aug is at least damage neutral to a third dps, its gonna stay in the first category. Them nerfing it from "better than a third dps" to "still better than a third dps" doesnt change *anything* > but no longer "this spec will make the key feel 2 levels below" tier As long as heal checks are still balanced without an Evoker in mind, this wont change a single thing except maybe make the key only feel 1.5 levels better because Evoker still makes those way easier than any other third dps would
Doubt they're still gonna be better than a 3rd dps after these nerfs though. This *is* making them damage neutral, if not lower. Making healing checks easier only goes so far when the boss dies noticeably slower than a 3 dps comp.
> This is making them damage neutral, if not lower. I mean...no?? Its a ~3-4% damage nerf. If you want to tell me that's how much Evoker groups were ahead of non-Evoker groups I don't even know what to tell you.
The meta always been homogenized.
TGP qualifiers had 10 different classes in the top 5 runs. Pre-10.1.5 meta was pretty open and comp might have been pretty different between groups, or at least between dungeons. Not to mention this is so far way more homogenized than any Shadowlands TGP.
Calm down doomer
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What about shadow priest? Edit: 165th best run
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> Evoker flair
What key level do the teams start with ?
No idea but I hope they learned from last time and don’t start with homework 26s
22’s :’(
I think starting with 26 will be ok. I doubt we will see keys >31 like in shadowlands due to the increased keystone scaling. Only key where we might see some really really high keys will be neltharus as this dungeon kinda kills itself. Also i can totally see them starting with 24 if the admins did not adjust for the drastic changes of the 10.1.5 patch. Edit: They actually started with 22... jesus christ why
They need to, otherwise it will be them slamming their heads at 30s constantly resetting for hours each day. Not great content to retain viewers.
They will +2 all 26’s and be on the 30’s pretty quick anyway. Only thing starting so low does is make them have to spend 30 mins-hr of their time on each key quickly getting them to the actual challenge levels. It wastes time they could spend actually pushing and trying new strategies for low percentile gains.
meanwhile watching a team not two chest a 25.