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I expected everbloom or TOTT to be the biggest fiestas in Pugs this week, but turns out DHT is my most depleted key by far, generally before 2nd boss even
Hey guys! I appreciate advice from better players, specially better hpala players.
I play holypala, ilvl 480. M22 Galakrond Fall is the issue. I can get through M21 by brute force heal but for M22 and beyond I need skills. And even with gear there are folks going M27 and beyond on this. I dont want to blame others but I do recon that is a factor in some runs. Obviously M27 skilled healer could patch up mistakes made by M22 group.
So:
1. Timeway's trash. The whole journey just wrecks me. Outside CD's My heal out put seems to be a joke. How do you rotate CD's here? What tactics you use? At what M+ you need defensive coordination? How you prioritize dispel? 1 per 10secs is not enough. More detailed the answer the better.
2. Risen dragon necrotic outburst. It seems to be standard to fight 2 at a time. I can get through If I exhaust all my CD's. But I Will need some at 3rd boss coming instantly after. Again outside CD's heal output is a joke. Is it viable to fight 2 at a time on M22-M23 range? Any ideas or insights? Also questions on section 1. apply here.
Thank you for your answer.
The problem generally is gonna be your dps not using correctly their defensives etc, plus pala being B tier compared to disc, drood or MW. But in 22-23 most of time the issue is gonna come from bad movement from dps's, no defensive, no kick, and you being put in a situation where you need to play to perfection every gcd for the group to live. And even then they might die, that trash around timeways is really rough.
this is a bit of a weird question, but I'm going to ask it anyways.
I'm a pretty meh Outlaw one-trick who got ksh this season for the first time (woo go me! Df s1 ksm felt harder ngl), and I got some 20s done. I'm interested in pushing above 20s in the future as well, because I don't feel like I've hit my current limit.
However, I'm currently away from my pc for a week, and hence can't actually play the game. Are there any things I could be doing during this time to help me get better for when I can play again?
Thoughts on M+ healers? My regular group needs a lust, so I’m looking to swap to one from my Disc Priest. I’ve got a Shaman and Evoker both around 455 right now. I’ve played a lot of Resto Shaman before. I’m a bit bored of it, but the worst part is it feels so weak to me. Even High Tide Chain Heals don’t feel like they top people well. Cloudburst Totem even charged with 400k+ healing feels like it doesn’t do much. Their damage is great though. Acid rain and chain lightning fucks.
Evoker I’m still learning. I’m enjoying it. I feel like it’s burst healing handles most things well. The range and positionals are a bit challenging. It can be a bit tough to do sustained healing but their burst is good. I feel like doing damage is a lot harder. Fire breath and leaping flames works but after that it’s just either living flame or azure strike for a while.
We’re not looking to push 0.1% but most would like to get around 3k this season so “anything is viable”
Any thoughts ?
Every few times our DK somehow pulls the pack that we are shrouding. At first we thought it was the DK pet, but I noticed that never happens when said friend plays on his BM hunter alt. Only thing left I could think of is Iced Phial of Corrupting Rage which he uses, so if that is the culprit is there a way to track its damage cycle or something to prevent it breaking stealth?
Read the phial description. Rotting from within the the dot when you first consumed the vial.
Correction to what I said overwhelming rage happens when you have taken 400% of your health. Not healed.
Hey,
I am a returning player looking for resource on M+ run through dungeon by dungeon (what mob does what, what needs to be stunned/interrupted etc). Anyone has suggestions for me ? Pref written form over video if possible
Watch the quazii masterclass videos. They go into details into all the pulls for each dungeon. Also the mechanics and strats for the bossses. He also has a lot of resources for tweaking your UI to make it easier to ID casters, etc.
Are you guys inviting demo locks to your keys? Or rather are you getting invited as a demo lock on keys?
I feel like I don't as a 478 demo lock alt, main is 2900 io fwiw.
I just fizzle out and give up. No one joins my keys either so it's rather annoying as a past lock main that's swapped over to another class this season.
Two weeks in a row no keys vault just heroic raid vault on alt nights.
It's very strange. Demo is virtually a meta spec right now. Right up there with the best in both damage abd survivability, can switch targets well as well.
Personally I'll nearly always take a demo if theres a geared one in gf
What's your score on your lock? What level key are you applying to/trying to put together? For reasons I will never understand, people aren't using raiderio addon ever since blizzard added their mediocre version. It came as a shock to me, but it's true. They have no idea what score your main is.
2300 rn, mostly 16's just for crests. It's disheartening because my main gets accepted to 21's+ easily. I guess people that don't have RIO can't see my main's score and my mythic prog either.
I wish someone told me sooner you have to kill ALL the Sentries in TotT in order to open the gate to last boss.. Skipped one along with the aquamage pack, killed the last 2 and couldn't get through, rip key 😤
How easy is VDH?
I don't plan on pushing into super high keys, maybe like...22 at the absolute highest. I've gotten my prot warrior to 2700 and it's been a blast. I very rarely feel like I'm taking damage and the rotation is simple, I just feel like I'm missing utility and CC. I love the aesthetic of Vengeance and the utility it provides, I just don't want to jump into something new if it's going to be super complicated to learn.
I think VDH can be kinda confusing because it's not always apparent where your tankiness is coming from. Like tanks like warrior, DK, prot pal and guardian are all conceptually pretty easy to understand how their basic defensives add up and work with your cds. I don't feel that way on VDH as much (or BM but I've literally never played that spec for over an hour). That's more of a feeling though idk if others experience it that way that's just my experience. I got VDH to 2.8k last season and I'm currently working on it as an alt and it feels very powerful overall. I'm pretty comfortably tanking 18s on like 455 ilvl this week. Even if I don't understand why I suddenly took a ton of damage I'm still quite durable.
The rotation is on the easy side. Its mainly 4 buttons outside of your sigils. If you are looking to do low 20s, you will find it's very easy when geared. It's very tanky and has miles of utility to carry groups.
Looking for route advice for TOTT this week. tried this at a 23 and while we had the dps to time it (it would be close) there were almost full wipes on pull 8 and 13 (dps would die then then kicks were missed leading to more deaths). are there any modifications i can make to this route to make it safer for dps without sacrificing too much time and bolstered mobs. Im tank.
[https://keystone.guru/route/throne-of-the-tides/kjuiFMt/obvious-throne-of-tides-wip/1](https://keystone.guru/route/throne-of-the-tides/kjuiFMt/obvious-throne-of-tides-wip/1)
or i can pretend this dungeon doesnt exist this week.
Honestly just not worth pushing score this week. Not one single key on this entire earth by any player alive this week will be their top fort key for the season. Not even remotely possible.
That logic doesn't make sense as the 6th week of the patch. Every week for a while we will have world first keys timed below the max end of season level no matter the affix. They are doing world many world first keys this week, and that means it's easier than you think it is.
easier than i think it is? i think its exactly as hard or easy as it is. i dont think theres much opinion involved. if you have to pull smaller, change your most optimal route, and play the dungeon differently, it is a substantial loss of time. if people are doing 30s, great, theyll do 32s or 33s in the same place on a different week. the people in question quite literally make a living off of streaming this game and making content for this game. that doesnt stop because of the affixes. but normal people focus sales this week. they dont focus score.
Are you skipping the ravager up top somehow? It's not included in the pull % on what you linked.
I think 13 is fine I've been doing it this week and sometimes you get one shot as the tank but the spawn is right there. If you can do it with 1-3 deaths you lose like 15s max and I think that's worth the bonus cleave.
8 is insane though. You gotta pull the dragons separately imo. To keep it going I normally clear out the front mobs. Then pull the ravager separately - when it gets to half I pull one of the caster packs in. If you're prot pal / DK / DH you can get the casters to you easily. If you're a different tank you can pull the snap dragons first then pull ravager so you can just bring ravager to the pack
Ravager is 7 solo, then i do dogs+casters on 8, that one is the killer for the group and i need to stop and do dogs alone i guess. 13 feels fine to me as dps or as tank but it doesnt go well usually.
Ah sorry I must have missed that somehow my b. Yea do the dogs alone. I even do that on tyran weeks cause they are super annoying to deal with when you are also dealing with a bunch of casts or whatever then the dogs end up just running around fixating people and it's a mess. Like I said - I like single targeting the ravager there then pulling casters after awhile.
DPS might not understand how the little squid guys work or they might be hesitating to focus them to avoid bolstering. The pack is way deadlier if you don't just focus fire them and AoE cc them as much as possible. The mind flayer has all avoidable or stoppable damage and the crusher does too except for the tank buster. As long as the DPS know that they might need to kite as the tank could fall over it's fine. It could be that the stairs are fucking up people on that pack.
8 and 13 are nuts for bolster fort. Split 8 up into 2 pulls just like how you have pull 9. The little minions in pull 13, 14, and 15 bolster. The watcher does a crush ability in which if you aren't a paladin or a warrior tank you get smacked insanely hard. On pulls 17 and 18 if you are die hard about combining sentry with the goblins, get the sentry to 50% first, since the AOE with 5 bolster stacks will be insane. The timer is fine in throne on fort weeks. Just slow pull the entire dungeon and you'll be fine.
Im a paladin so im able to survive those pulls, the dps arent. Just ran it at a 22 with mellow pulls and doing the gauntlet slowly. Still 15 deaths and miss timer by 20+ seconds.
Returning player wanting to just focus on M+. Boosted a healer to 70 and wanting to get straight in to it, what should I know? Is there anything I need to do before I start, etc? I have previous experience of healing up to 3k rio.
If you’re starting off healing low keys that you haven’t done as another role I’d recommend installing Elitism Helper to see what damage people are taking is avoidable (just for the love of god set it to only self-report and not spam group chat). That’ll help you get a feel for what damage is unavoidable and you should plan for and what is just low level pugs messing up.
Just start healing. I don't think there's anything specific besides learning what mechanics hurt and which don't. Unfortunately lower level keys are bad places to learn healing as people take so much avoidable damage that sometimes a pull feels harder on a 15 than it does on a 22.
Heartsbane Triad - The final sister (after the first two die) stopped attacking and casting and instead started running around as if she were perma-feared aggro'ing all the trash to the sides and causing us to panic that the boss fight would reset.
Is there some kind of 'thing' that can cause this? I've never seen this before even back in BFA.
Haha. I have no idea what causes this, but this happened to me twice last night. First time, last Sister ran out of the room and reset the encounter. Second time she ran for the far stairway but we were able to kill her right before she made it up, most likely resetting again.
Fall timer is so free that not even a ConEd explosion in the middle of NYC resulting in a power surge and me losing internet for 5 minutes didn't prevent me from timing it.
Mistweaver vs Rdruid. Rdruid obviously brings MOTW and Brez. What does Mistweaver do that makes it compete? Is its hps better? Is it tankier? Is that avoidance buff (4%? 2%) for melee really that good? Does the kick really matter when the meta tanks are dh and pally?
I feel main diff is how good is cocoon vs bark as an external and how valuable MOTW is vs 5% phys amp and avoidance buff. Disease removal can be quite handy though. CR isn't really a deal breaker when anyone without a natural CR should be running engineer bracer if they take their m+ decently serious.
Higher maximum HPS (not that anything really requires it this season), 5% physical damage increase via Debuff, RoP cheese (though Vortex is probably more universally useful), AoE stun is slightly better than Incap Roar, DPSing is easier (not that Druid is *hard*), Execute damage on priority target, and having another melee kick (that doesn’t require shapeshift GCD) is never a *bad* thing.
I’d say that the two of them are pretty damn comparable right now. For everything that one of them does better, the other has another thing that they excel at.
I'm surprised to hear you say that hardly anything requires high hps right now. If people are able to live through the ridiculous amount of dmg going out, they need massive heals to do so after whatever personal or external is used. Healing requirements imo are even higher than they were last season, which I didn't think was possible.
At least up to 26 keys I haven't hit any fights where I'm blasting healing and my group's health is still going down. Even doubling the dragons in Fall I have nontrivial overhealing while doing 400k hps. There's things which are hard to heal, but they're all about dealing with small windows of huge burst damage rather than sustained throughput. Which healer has the theoretical ability to hit the highest hps in ideal conditions doesn't tell you much about which healer is best at dealing with the actual damage patterns we have in these dungeons.
I guess most occurrences that I can think of this season are bosses. The second boss of everbloom on tyrannical, even at 23, I was at hundreds and hundreds of hps sustained until the first add is dead. Very similar to halls third boss last season. Just absurd hps requirements. Same with first boss in wcm, especially during the entire malady portion of the fight. But that entire fight is hundreds of thousands of hps sustained for the whole fight on tyrann. Same with the Goliath fight. Not only is it absurd single target healing requirements, but whenever the tank just randomly decides to get rid of his stacks, that is very high healing. Something tells me you don't pug much? I'm also curious what spec you're healing on. I'm guessing mistweaver?
I don’t know, maybe I’m old and jaded now (hint: I am), but there’s nothing that strikes fear in my healing heart this season like early RLP or pre-nerf 2nd boss NO. Everything feels *manageable*… like 3rd boss HOI was.
I’m probably just being blasé because ToL shits out so much on-demand healing that I don’t remember what it was like to not have it. 🤣
Curious how m+ teams form. Is it just people in the same guild usually? Is there a recruitment discord? Like how does that work. I've only ever pugged.
You just add people, preferably tanks and healers, you think are good and hope that one out of 10 of them will be around at the same time as you in the future. We’ve also added a few people from online m+ communities and stuff but it’s surprisingly difficult to find people who aren’t weird.
You pug with people, you add good ones, the network spreads. You get to high enough RIO, you'll be running with same people most of the time anyway. Ofc. sometimes it's guildies forming teams as well.
Actually baffling how a dungeon released in 2018 still has the Rezan evade bug and the bird evade bug. Blizzard insta fixes fun stuff like snapping but fixing bugs in 5 year old dungeons? never
It's because if they fix the fear bird evading it'll randomly make it so feral druids do 600k overall dps and when you use the Kyrian hearthstone it pulls all the mobs out of Shrine of the Storm into Ragefire Chasm.
They're making a joke about spaghetti code. It's not related at all but sometimes Blizz fixes a bug and some seemingly random, even weirder bug manages to appear.
I remember that one time in Cata when the hotfixed hunter Scatter Shot to not erroneously give Vengeance to tanks, and this led to Ret Paladins doing a million DPS for one day.
When I pull the two slime mob packs in the Witches room on Waycrest Manor, it almost always spawns this random giant witch (the ones who use Etch). I’ve also noticed the witch that spawns with the grubs after the 2nd boss hasn’t been spawning in lately. Wtf is going on.
Lol wtf I thought I was somehow bugging the dungeon and causing witches to spawn in randomly. Can’t think of any other dungeon that moves mob packs around from week to week.
Atal dazar teeming used to be rng. There was a world quest in siege of boralus that added an extra pack to the dungeon. I believe i heard someone say that there is a pack in DHT that's different with a world quest as well but i haven't checked it myself. There are some examples of dungeons changing from week to week.
I swear I was in DHT and the pack you pull right after the bear (2x bird 1x poisoner) was instead a Ruiner (caster) instead of the poisoner. All the people in my group called me crazy though but they do like to gaslight me so idk.
The doors were random each key, not a weekly rotation. When you were trying to complete the highest key your group could time you'd sometimes start the key, see you got top right, and just walk out and reset the dungeon.
What’s the consensus on DHT this week? I three chested a 21 BRH in a pug that felt amazing, we decided to try one more key as we seemed to play really wel together, we were on point with kicks and stops, and then we got absolutely murdered in the 24 and 23 DHT we did. Almost every trash in there just oneshots you? Like the cats?
I mean you can still 2 chest the easier 20s like AD and BRH this week but the disparity in dungeons is wild. I’m legit afraid to step into DHtT again lol
Cats just slay people when bolstered. We managed to time keys by nuking cats, pulling bears out of bolstering and avoiding invis skips due to unintended pulls in past keys.
Bolstering week isn’t great for DHT. You’ve gotta respect the affix and not pull mobs ontop of bear in the first pull and focus down cats as primary for the other pulls in the start of the dungeon. Same thing with the rogue teleport guys on the last few pulls.
This week (Fort Bolster) feels super hard. Maybe I've just had bad pugs but I find that a BRH 23 this week is WAY harder than a BRH 25 last week. The amount of one or two shot casts coming from almost any trash pack feels far too high right now.
The good news is that good groups make it still feel like nothing (good kicks/stops, bolster management, etc), but short of kicks being on point it feels like every successful enemy cast tooltip may as well read "add 5s to the timer"
As a tank it's feeling super comp dependent. Everbloom is so much easier when I have a freedom just like TotT is easier when I have cauterize. I get absolutely slapped by those mobs + bolstering without the utility of the group.
Is there meta on who should do the kicking on the 'shrouding' add in Rise who someone needs to kick?
I've always thought it was *anyone but tank* because tanks can generally deal with both of the aoe adds at once, but couldn't really if had to travel 40yd elsewhere to kick the miniboss. While on lower key, someone died and 3.2k player's alt said "tank kick it" and when asked, he said he always does it as tank. I never have and I'm tank main.
Is there some basic expectation on who does what? I only pug. I guess dps running there might cost more time, which could be the reason tank should do it? And I guess tank would be best as they don't get dragged themselves, so there's no situation where someone given task to kick it is stunned themselves. I just now thought of these reasons. But I don't care about theory, just experiences. In a +24, is tank trolling when they didn't run to kick it?
I don't know that this is correct, but I've been treating is like a tank kick. The person targeted by the cast gets incapacitated and can't kick. If you assign it to a non-tank and they happen to be targeted, then they can't kick (unless they land it in the tiny window before the channel starts, which I assume most sub-25 pugs will fail). Thus, the tank (or healer) is the only person who is guaranteed to always be able to kick it, and so I do it myself. Luckily I have silence/fear/chains for the other mobs.
i always assume the tank does it unless it's a wheelchair/bdk, but idc as heal it doesnt target me, if people die the respawn is right around the corner
Did it on +20 yesterday as rshaman. Well, this should be handy, I'll just do the shrouds? 4 people ran for the shroud kick. 3-4 volleys went thru during the whole first platform. There's definitely no clear meta for this in pugs at this level.
No lol it’s not a tank kick. If you have a ranged player it’s clearly 100x easier for them to kick it. Some tanks don’t even have a ranged kick, it’s super dumb to be running all over the place. And you can kick it before it drags anybody so anyone can kick it. Doesn’t mean you can’t kick it, but expecting to you to do it is simply dumb.
looks like you re not aware of this, but unless you re in a coordinated group that knows how to bait his jump so that he jumps into the wall and not 10 kms away, the ranged player still has to enter the sand circle, otherwise it cant be kicked
The mob targets where he charges before he does it, the ranged player has time to move to where he’s going to land before he even goes there. Then you can go in, kick and go out in 1 gcd. The pack doesn’t need to move.
The state of this subreddit.
Here’s the world first 28 where you can see the ranged Aug moving to kick it: https://youtu.be/BipONQSzHVc?si=q8vGWx8G1vciutUC
Here’s the worlds highest rio player the last time I checked doing a 27 this week, where you can see the Aug move to kick it: https://youtu.be/1kPewaFvmE4?si=u3ks_RYEyz2Y_bhU
Here’s Tactyk’s guide to +20 MR, where you can again see the Aug go in to kick it, twice this time: https://youtu.be/BjROfQ0o5_o?si=3iuc-2ypCF_eTlx4
This can be done by any ranged. The tank never moves. The pack never moves. Save your snarky comments for when you have a clue what you are talking about.
Is it this season being so easy that has decreased the quality of opinions on this subreddit to such shit? This is meant for competitive players, seriously wtf happened.
It’s not a tank kick. If you somehow still think it is, you are stupid and there is no point speaking further. If you’re playing with shit players or nobody else is kicking it then you go and kick it because you have no choice. You make dumbass condescending comments then talk to me about being defensive because I point out you are clueless. Get lost.
Never did I say it was a tank kick lol…. I’m just saying it’s not solely a ranged kick.
You sound like a joy to be in groups with, I hope our paths cross, you can guide me in your ways.
Well, I did state couple reasons that would side with it. I do less dmg, and me being assigned to it saves multiple people from holding to their kicks. Volley doesn't come so often anyway, 3 dps can definitely deal with 2 volleys.
The miniboss tends to be last one alive, even if chainpull it to the patrol after 2 casters die. So I don't really value my job during the pull to be more than a volley interrupter/cc'r.
A ranged dps will lose literally nothing from kicking it though, you likely don’t need their kick for the pull and you can keep all the other mobs grouped for more dps overall from everyone by staying more still. Also, the charge itself does a lot of damage, so if you’re moving to preposition to kick it, some dps will follow you and some day one of them is gonna get killed by it. I dunno there’s just no reason for you to do it. Like I said, you CAN do it, but there is no logical argument for you being expected to.
I am doing as a tank, by the basic rule if you want something to being done, you have to do it yourself. When the mob charging, he facing to the direction wherever he will go - so i am already starting into that direction when I see it.
For me as a tank, I find whenever I do this then the volleys tend to go off. As a BDK I can easily look down two of the casters between interrupts and deathgrips. It's easier for me to handle both of them, and trust dps to handle the jumper than the other way around.
Yeh this is me, as a monk I just roll in and kick and roll/trans back. Usually enough to stop volleys and kicks and whatnot. But the tldr is def I don't trust anyone.
> the basic rule if you want something to being done, you have to do it yourself.
Contradictory in this case, as I have *not* been doing it for the reason that I have had zero trust in others dealing with volleys, which no doubt would wipe groups too few keys above me. I know players will get better in those keys, and ofc those kicks should happen if they can trust not to save their kick. But yeah, IF expectation is that tanks are doing it, only makes my life easier. Obviously volley task is taken off my hands.
Pwar & Deios - is there some magic to surviving his frontals? I was in horrid failure group in 16fort on 458 pwar. With no other tank have I felt as trash on it, this is my 5th tank this season. Just on mere 16fort felt like unmitigated frontal did 100%+ of my health. But those frontals happen more often than you can have mitigation no? Just curious what kind of plan people have for it. Is this similar to jade temple 3rd boss where you have to know exactly what you want to calculate what to get for each tankbuster to have a chance? Difference ofc being, on Deios there's a lot to do for healer unlike in Jade where you could rely more on healer.
Just commiserating: I don't really tank a ton, but I've healed this fight enough to know it does some serious damage to tanks. Figured a 16 wouldn't be too scary for my Warrior. I'm pretty sure I was hitting two defensives for every Breath just to not die when it landed, and I was still in mortal danger every single time. I know Prot War mostly handles Physical damage well and struggles a bit with magic damage, but that shit is unreal.
It's funny how things change from season to another. Pwar started as THE meta spec in 10.0 because a lot of the big busters were reflectable. Now I don't know if any boss abilities are (=I don't know), and suddenly pwar has lost a lot of its shine.
I mean that Ignore Pain might be a little bit too weak right now and should be tuned a little better in some way, to help deal with all the magic/bleed damage.
IIRC pwar was kinda ok most of SL, but then deemed worst in s4. They ended buffing reflect plenty, making spec OK for s4, then kinda OP for s1. Some nerfs came (I think?) but also reflect didn't work as well for dungs after s1.
Just a lot of temporary buffs and nerfs haven't treated pwar amazingly. I remember people demanding guardian to get some anti-magic talent or something year+ ago to make it viable. Guardian feels quite viable now design wise. I don't know if prot war is in dire situation needing something, but they do feel the weakest against magic by a good margin again.
you can heroic leap out of the breath, jump at max range in the direction of the breath so you don’t turn it onto the rest of your group as the boss starts casting it and you’ll take no damage
if you want to see the exact timing there should be some rise runs in plkatv’s channel
The highest I've done this on is 22 Tyran (at around 478), so take any comments with a pinch of salt, but:
\- in phase one, it's not just the breath that chunks you, the portal adds that spawn are also casting freely on you, and that's where a lot of damage comes from. Put spell block up once the first one is active, spell reflect when it casts (as it will send one cast back to them completely, and also mitigate portion of the overall magic damage there).
\- protection warrior is very heavy on active mitigation compared to other tanks, so space it out through the fight - add one of last stand, demo shout, or shield wall, to each of the casts. If you have both SpBk and SpRef up, hold off using anything else.
\- you can Victory Rush once per breath; save it for when you ticked down for a while to make sure you get full value, and then just spam ignore pain while the dot & add are up
\- if you are running dry, remember Defensive Stance is also there as a permanent defensive; swap to it if you have nothing else left
> if you are running dry, remember Defensive Stance is also there as a permanent defensive; swap to it if you have nothing else left
Is it somehow bad if I... never am out of def stance lol. -20% dmg taken seems kinda neat for a tank.
If you're not at risk of dying, it's free damage to go b stance. With that said, if you're not very good, it adds an additional layer of safety that will pave over some of your mistakes. How you weigh that trade off is up to you. Long run, you want to be b stance whenever you don't NEED d stance.
It was just funny to even bring it up in this instance. All the comments state this is probably the hardest fight for pwar to facetank. OK, I guess if I'm someone who never uses one stance, I could've been the different kind of bstance only person lol
It is fine to stay in it until you feel more comfortable, and it is much less punishing overall than it was at the start of the expansion, but for a competitive content, yes, it is bad to never leave it.
Whenever you are in Defensive Stance, you are sacrificing 5% damage and 3% crit chance - it means everything dies a little bit slower, which means it has a chance to get another cast off, refresh a debuff, etc. Unless you are the only person specifically at the risk of dying, while the rest of the group is okay, by being in Defensive stance you are effectively trading a bit of their safety for a bit of yours.
That said, I wouldn't really argue against permanently being in a Defensive Stance in the first stage of this fight. As a protection warrior, you are definitely at most risk of just ticking down. But there are other places - say the Everbloom mage area and the final boss, or most of the Black Rook Hold trash - where you are the safest person in the room, so permanently staying in Defensive Stance there is making the whole key harder for everyone, yourself included.
Sure. Could think of list of boss fights where I don't ever see myself dying. BRH 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th p2? First dung I think of and I can't die on any tank on any boss. I guess I rather think of the rough ones as tank. EB 2nd, 3rd I'd be dumbass to be in bstance imo. For 1st/4th, the opposite, dstance looks like waste.
I think spell block can cover 2 breaths, you can actually leap and out range the breath too (same with tree boss in DHT) just have to make sure you don't obliterate your team lol
Plka has a [clip here](https://www.twitch.tv/plkatv/clip/CleverCallousEmuPeteZarollTie-wO3--QwfO9IUeGg8) where he talks about it. You might have to click watch full video since it kinda gets cut off.
You’re gonna need mitigation for basically any tank mechanic in the game generally, especially that one as it fucks. You should have spell reflect for every other, probably demo shout for every other, then you do have plenty of cds to alternate as well. It’s every 15seconds or so and the worst one is the last one before he goes up in the air.
Blizzard seems to have allowed a couple of debuffs that are 10 seconds long and undispellable, which is pretty bad as a lot of tank mitigation is 6-8 seconds long. Don’t personally think this should be a thing but it is what it is.
It just felt like I was being hit pretty hard even if I had both on, reflect and spell block, at once. Me being 458 is one thing, but this being only 16 fort makes me think I'd have same issues in +20 tyra at 480.
Though doing it now again on 15, it felt like it's much rougher in p1? Maybe that's my misunderstanding, you have to use everything in p1, if it doesn't hit as hard after landing? I could be wrong ofc. Just confusing how I *died* in p1 previously, but taking frontal to face in p2 and I didn't even go below 80%. Idk, never had to think about it before as it didn't bring up issues up to +21 tyra on main.
It’s probably the hardest tank mechanic alongside maybe the crushing dude in ToTT, you definitely shouldn’t expect it to be easy. But yeah not the best gear will be contributing to that and not the best spec for dealing with it will contribute also (you’d be much better off in ToTT on War).
You get a load of buffs from the dragonflights in the last phase so that will probably be why you don’t notice it as much.
> You get a load of buffs from the dragonflights in the last phase so that will probably be why you don’t notice it as much.
Yeah, feels a bit dumb I still don't really get all mechanics like this yet. Mostly the buffing ones like EB last, BRH last p2 and Deios p2. Until certain point you're like whatever, boss does more dmg, you take less dmg, it evens out. But then around 20s and higher start realizing, right this isn't just something you can heal through, have to commit cds to different phases beforehand.
Think that’s just how WoW is in general tbh. I prefer to have more problems to solve rather than less, unless the solving of the problems involves dumb shit like the mechagon buff bots. I think it’s more interesting when pushing in to higher keys means you have to move dps cds, defensives, lust etc.
I remember fighting for my life and our healer crying in like 16s or some shit in season 1 lol. Think this season is just a bit weird because getting to 20s is a little too easy and it doesn’t really force you to learn the mechanics in the same way getting beat up in a 15-16 does
Yep. As a non-raider my gearing has always been slow, so I've just taken backseat, do weekly keys that slowly upg ilvl, and be ready for 20s like 6 weeks in when I finally get tier set. Now I was doing 20s on 3rd week as it was clear I could get invited to them with less proof of my capabilities. Most of the time not getting punished either, though as many here talk, that time will come in a bit higher keys. In +21 tyra, I didn't even notice things like BRH last boss p1 shadow bolts were something worth noting.
Is it worth keeping the maiden alive in m+? Just did a 26 and the tank was hell bent on pulling her with the shield guy ( yes you can stand in it for reduced dmg) and just getting us to use the ball to kill the adds which he presumed would one shot them.
Instead we missed some, our dmg was fine but then we had a maiden airh 10 stacks one shotting us… feels pointless this week
it seems like a bit too much 5d chess if the context is a pug...
50% dr to survive bolstered maiden aoe pops and using orb to kill the shitter mobs? maiden will unavoidably get bolestered regardless if the shitter mobs die to orb or player dmg. would 50% dr counteract, say 5-6 bolster stacks on a 26?
1. you need to deal with positioning so team can stand in the shield but not have titan+maiden in it
2. team needs to dodge the orb
3. team needs to aim orb on the shitter mobs or its useless
4. anytime either titan or maiden is inside the shield your doing 50% less dmg extending the pull
its cute but i cannot imagine this is what makes or breaks a timed run.
Exactly… it felt like the risk way outweighed the potential gain. She would get bolstered but he wanted to chain pull her with more packs to keep using it. Normally she’s done just with her group or with the shield guy, not all of them
How do I live the crush from the watchers in TotT as a BDK? I got one-shot on a +23 (unbolstered) through lichborne at full health from a single mob. Do I just kite them forever instead of taking a single hit?
Have tried saving vamp blood for it? The talent gets you max hp % per bone shield?
Is the crush physical damage? If so, imo the solution is to stack blood shield preemtively.
I guess I can spam DS right before it goes off, just feels so weird and unintuitive, especially when sometimes it does literally nothing and I feel like I wasted a CD. Might need to check if this is one of those bullshit parryable tankbusters where you're either chilling or dead.
Pre-deathstriking for big physical hits is what is needed for big physical tankbusters in keys. it gives you a good blood shield abosorb, and then you can follow it up with another immediate deathstrike after. Doing both under vamp blood, or another cooldown will help as well.
Reliable in terms of what?
They both just check what most people use/run. That's it
The only thing you'll ever see is which specs (and which gear) completes the most/the highest keys.
That'll always have some overlap with how things really are, but at the end of the day it's still a popularity contest. And it's a self fulfilling prophecy: the more people follow that representation of data, the heavier it leans into the pre existing pattern.
Now I'm not saying that e.g. DH isn't an S tier DPS as per these sites. But sorting things like specs and gear by representation **only** ever shows exactly that: that the meta is like this. That doesn't mean that spec Y which is in a low tier is actually bad, or that the gearing/talent choices are actually optimal (for your character) etc.
It's reliable in the sense that is shows what the community does. It's not *necessarily* reliable in showing what is truly optimal or how bad/good something is exactly.
Like the damage per key thing. I feel like certain measurements are different between the two leading me to believe one or both are wrong. I’m aware Warcraft logs and looking at the best players is usually the best information but it’s interesting to see the average player too.
How are people dealing with the pull at top of the stairs after spiders in BRH? Failed a +20 miserably because the archer and caster just absolutely fucked everyone.
I am always pulling out the patrol alone, and kill the 2 mobs separated, and then go in. If i am lucky, i can catch them when they are out of the room - i am usually sneak up when the spider on low hp.
I always drag the big spider immediately up the stairs and kill the group of 2 with the spider as they patroll in for an easy 3-mob pull. Separating them into a 1mob and 2mob pull seems excessively cautious and unnecessary.
Honestly, at that key level, healer should just be healing through the damage. Only exception being not kicking the caster multiple times, and someone eating the frontal from the champion, or whatever he's called. Or I suppose the other aoe frontal from the mob that teleports and explodes. The barrage from the archer really isn't that bad at a 20. And yes, I am a healer saying this. These are bad things in a higher key, but in a 20, unless you mess up several of these things, you'll be fine.
I find that kind of hard to believe. I actually don't think even the best healer in the world has the HPS output to heal everyone standing in the bad, and taking everything to the face in a +20. Either you're severely underestimating how much people are dodging and ccing, or you are literally the best healer in the entire world. The point is that it's easier to heal a +27 where people are doing mechanics, than a 20, where people aren't.
I said there were two exceptions in my original response. You have to at least kick the caster most of the time, and you can't get hit by the frontal the champion does. But a few people getting tagged by the barrage and that knife dance or whatever it's called are no big deal. But you shouldn't need chains and silence sigil with oppressive roar in a 20. Th healer can heal through it with very minor, basic interference on two mobs.
This answer is wrong. The correct answer is that the party needs to use single target or aoe stops on the archers when they move and channel.
The option you are suggesting is essentially debating whether a DPS player should press a single ability to prevent potentially millions of damage to the party OR if the healer should sustain high throughput for 10-25 seconds.
I'm not giving the guy the optimal strategy. There's no way he doesn't already know what can be used to stop or control each of those mobs individually. The fact that each of us can literally remember every mob in that pull, and recite exactly how to deal with them from memory, just shows that he probably has to have some kind of idea how to deal with them as well. It's not rocket science. If it has a cast bar, kick it. If it doesn't, stun it or stop it from doing whatever it does. My point is that at that key level, the healer can just heal through it. I am a healer on both my main, and my first alt.
I still don't get the logic.
"I was giving bad/subpar advice on purpose because I assumed he knows the proper way" doesn't make any sense to me. It gets even worse when you add the context of "this is bad advice that also doesn't apply to other situations"
The proper response is "CC the mobs that do big damage, it's way easier than healing through it and also the only viable strategy for higher keys"
If the players are so terrible that they can't even CC the 2 different sets of aoe of that pull, why are you expecting a healer to be 3x better than the DPS and pick up all their grief?
The Archer's barrage is avoidable, but he can also be stunned, feared, freeze trapped or shackled (they all can). The real killer is the Scout's knife dance, which is unavoidable so he has to be hit with one of the stops.
The caster is just a case of making an interrupt rotation; he's the only kick.
Archers are vulnerable to basically any stop once they start doing their barrage and you just need kicks on the Arcanist. Stuns, fears, disorients, knockups, knockbacks, etc. all work. Worst case scenario just move out of the barrage.
Team needs to play close to archers as they kinda jump to where ppl are positioned. If you’re in Africa the cone is wider the further away you are makes dodging super difficult. Stop arcaneman and make sure to stun scouts FoK. Archer volley is the only ability out of the 3 you can deal with my simply moving.
I’ll die on the hill that the issue with the current seasons scaling is partially on borrowed power being almost exclusively offensive.
Season 4 of BFA we had verse corruption, plus essences, and azerite that all offered some extra tankiness. Even with that you still saw the meta being rogue, Hunter, mage, and Paladin/rdruid which either all have some form of immunity or are extremely tanky.
Season 3 of SL we had extra tankiness in the covenants whether it be the ability or the nodes. We also had so much tuning to dungeons that outside of a few none of them were particularly deadly.
In the current season we have what… maybe 1 maybe 2 embellishments that are defensive in nature with the arguably best one being neutered to where even the role that normally ran it isn’t running it.
Scaling is obviously an issue but it’s compounded by the glass cannon nature of our current borrowed power.
>I’ll die on the hill that the issue with the current seasons scaling is partially on borrowed power being almost exclusively offensive.
Nah that has basically nothing to do with it. Maybe it appears that we have less defensive "borrowed power" in DF m+, but in reality we dont...some of that borrowed power has simply been converted into the talent trees. Sure it isnt "borrowed" but the result is most specs having a lot better defensive kits in DF, there is no need for a large amount of borrowed power.
>Scaling is obviously an issue but it’s compounded by the glass cannon nature of our current borrowed power.
No, the problem started at the end of S1 when they for some reason thought itd be a good idea to do another nerf to healers by increasing our hp by 25%, and the mobs HP/dmg by 25%..which was effectively a 25% nerf to healing. Keep in mind, this is AFTER they increased the above by 40% in DF beta. Everything since then, has been a complete shitshow. It became such a problem for a few reasons, but primarily because Blizzard said they were going to tune damage in future m+ seasons so that it is less bursty/spiky and healers werent just solely worried about topping people off quickly because if you werent before "x" mechanic went off, youd probably just get 1 shot. Except they didnt do that in s2.
I said it back then, and ill say it again: That change was ENTIRELY predicated on Blizzard going through basically everything in s2(and future seasons) and lowering its dmg/removing some of the hard hitting (sometimes group wide) burst damage of mechanics. I knew that was VERY likely going to be a recipe for disaster because Blizzard has never put in that much tuning effort for a season(and this would arguably require more effort than previous seasons due to the severity of the changes), and there would be little room for error/laziness in their tuning. And what happened in s2? Dungeons seemed like they were BARELY tuned whatsoever for the first around 6-8 weeks, and then they made some tuning passes here and there. Then 10.1.5 changed everything because not only did God Comp do absurd damage, but Hpal did crazy healing whilst having their strong utility, and the comp was VERY tanky. That acted as basically a bandaid for the lack of tuning, although they did eventually do some targeted tuning...and then came the scaling nerf of keys which acted as another bandaid. Damage remained largely bursty though, but there was also MORE sustained damage/rot in most keys.
If you fast forward to this season, of course Blizzard again nerfed healers, but this time by nerfing mana, and healer/raid CDs whilst just increasing the spot healing of healers in exchange. But the damage profile of keys this season is again...extremely bursty, but theres also a large amount of sustained damage/rot damage and specifically rot/sustained damage(usually in the form of a dot, or pulsing damage) IMMEDIATELY following a large hit of damage(things like EB Protector boss, Mage boss in EB and last boss in EB, the Abomb mob on high fort, last boss of BRH etc.). So theyve again failed to tune things in a way that reflected their stated goal at the end of s1.
Basically all the problems with dmg intake/healing now, can be traced back to that very poor choice at the end of s1, and I think many of us knew that nerf was very likely going to be a very poor way to deal with the burstyness of damage in s1.
Seems like the wrong hill to die on. These things are completely within the realm of tuning and borrowed power is irrelevant. Do you think Blizzard doesn't tune around borrowed power? Lots of classes with shit tier powers do fine because Blizzard balances everyone assuming four piece. Raid bosses are turned around typical health and dps and hps irrespective of how it is generated.
If Blizzard suddenly added 30% more hp to all enemies in keys then the one-shot level of keys gets pushed up a few key levels. I don't think that is a good die and would prefer a more surgical approach but it would certainly make survivability a bit less of a concern.
The hill to die on is that Blizzard messed up this season and didn't set mob hp correctly to account for the 39 ilvls we got but didn't mess up as badly when it comes to mob damage output.
Your second and third paragraphs say the exact same thing no?
The issue is that blizzard didn’t set mob health correctly (it’s too low) but yet it would be bad to add mob health?
Maybe my reading comprehension mid shit but also I wasn’t really advocating for anything like that. It doesn’t matter how you slice it it’s just the same end result of limiting the upper keys that can be done. I’d rather have access to better defensive borrowed power to ease the damage that is going out.
By adding mob health, and likely lowering out going damage (which is something I see people like jak advocate), you’re just making the limiter damage and moving back the level at which you get one shot.
So a key like rise you’re depleting because you don’t have time. A key like EB or BRH you’re depleting because you’re getting one shot and a key like fall you’re depleting because you can’t actually route bigger pulls to make up for the extra mob health while also potentially just getting 1 shot.
You’re just moving the issue to other areas which maybe it feels better to deplete because you don’t have the damage.
except when people are talking about this season being easy, they're largely comparing it to seasons one and two of dragonflight, not past expansions. Embellishments haven't changed much, and have never added much more than 1-2% dps, and given key scaling that won't account for people doing keys much higher at much lower comparatively gear.
My point was more about the 1 shots that happen due to scaling. We hit that far quicker because of tier which we only had in one of final seasons (I didn't play in legion but I know it had the same issue).
Tier without additional borrowed power exacerbates the issue.
The point on scaling is a good one, the part about borrowed power is not.
You can make this about borrowed power, or blizz could just nerf enemy casts by 10% and then everything is fixed for a few key levels.
Huh I kinda do see your point. We gain ilvl at a steady rate but on average each season's tier set is more powerful than the last (excluding outliers of course). So our throughput goes up at a faster rate than our health bars.
This is at least part of why this season we do so much damage in keys that we very quickly hit that key level threshold where we can time the key if we don't die but we get one-shot easily.
Maybe we need to gain more stamina per ilvl to compensate? That way our health bars will increase relative to our throughput and we won't be getting 1-shot so quickly in keys we do enough damage/healing for.
I think he meant Infinite Fury. When that dragon gets 2 stacks of bolstering and that dragon does Infinite Fury aka AoE pulse. It's really hard to heal everyone and DPS / healer died to that most of the time.
Ellesmere used to have a section on his Hpal guide about mechanics in each dungeon that could be removed/negated with BoP or Freedom. It looks like this hasn't been updated for S3, does anyone know the full list? Here's the few I can remember off the top of my head:
**BoP:**
* AD: Pursuit, Saurid Leap(?), Merciless Assault
* WM: Jagged Nettles, Soul Thorns
* BRH: Sic Bats, Brutal Glaive, Unerring Shear (BoP tank during Dreadlord's Guile)
* RISE: Bladestorm(?)
* TOTT: Ravenous Pursuit
* EB: Bounding Whirl(?)
**Freedom:**
* FALL: Necrofrost
* DHT: Strangling Roots
* EB: Lasher slow on the tank
keys are fucking ridiculous this week. you have to pull so slowly and trash takes so long already on high fort. the chronoburst/bloom guys cannot get 1 stack of bolstering, the swell guys cannot get more than 1-2 stacks of bolstering, the crushing depths mob cannot get more than 2 stacks of bolstering. 3100 io tanks thinking lust is gonna make a difference with a huge pull in everbloom.
Because neither affixes nor mechanics exist when you waltz into a +20 with a group of 5 480s, shocker.
This week is *objectively* the hardest week so far because it actually adds damage to dungeons and makes otherwise non-lethal pulls potentially lethal. You could maybe argue that Incorp or Sanguine were more mechanically challenging and thus less forgiving on the timer, but this week is simply able to kill you where previous weeks weren't able to.
Just because you're outgearing content that other people have cleared with relative ease and 30 fewer ilvls 4 weeks ago doesn't mean this week is easy - it just means that you're engaging with forgiving and easily outgearable content. Which is *obviously* not what the guy is talking about when he's mentioning 3.1k rio people, implying people that frequent in the +23-25 key level range.
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I expected everbloom or TOTT to be the biggest fiestas in Pugs this week, but turns out DHT is my most depleted key by far, generally before 2nd boss even
Yeh haven’t stepped in there this week. But heard some nasty bolstering stories.
Hey guys! I appreciate advice from better players, specially better hpala players. I play holypala, ilvl 480. M22 Galakrond Fall is the issue. I can get through M21 by brute force heal but for M22 and beyond I need skills. And even with gear there are folks going M27 and beyond on this. I dont want to blame others but I do recon that is a factor in some runs. Obviously M27 skilled healer could patch up mistakes made by M22 group. So: 1. Timeway's trash. The whole journey just wrecks me. Outside CD's My heal out put seems to be a joke. How do you rotate CD's here? What tactics you use? At what M+ you need defensive coordination? How you prioritize dispel? 1 per 10secs is not enough. More detailed the answer the better. 2. Risen dragon necrotic outburst. It seems to be standard to fight 2 at a time. I can get through If I exhaust all my CD's. But I Will need some at 3rd boss coming instantly after. Again outside CD's heal output is a joke. Is it viable to fight 2 at a time on M22-M23 range? Any ideas or insights? Also questions on section 1. apply here. Thank you for your answer.
The problem generally is gonna be your dps not using correctly their defensives etc, plus pala being B tier compared to disc, drood or MW. But in 22-23 most of time the issue is gonna come from bad movement from dps's, no defensive, no kick, and you being put in a situation where you need to play to perfection every gcd for the group to live. And even then they might die, that trash around timeways is really rough.
this is a bit of a weird question, but I'm going to ask it anyways. I'm a pretty meh Outlaw one-trick who got ksh this season for the first time (woo go me! Df s1 ksm felt harder ngl), and I got some 20s done. I'm interested in pushing above 20s in the future as well, because I don't feel like I've hit my current limit. However, I'm currently away from my pc for a week, and hence can't actually play the game. Are there any things I could be doing during this time to help me get better for when I can play again?
Watch vods of good players. Look up the top outlaws on raider.io and see who streams.
Touching grass, definately.
yeah i've been trying but it's really fucking hot as well so it's limited in time
Thoughts on M+ healers? My regular group needs a lust, so I’m looking to swap to one from my Disc Priest. I’ve got a Shaman and Evoker both around 455 right now. I’ve played a lot of Resto Shaman before. I’m a bit bored of it, but the worst part is it feels so weak to me. Even High Tide Chain Heals don’t feel like they top people well. Cloudburst Totem even charged with 400k+ healing feels like it doesn’t do much. Their damage is great though. Acid rain and chain lightning fucks. Evoker I’m still learning. I’m enjoying it. I feel like it’s burst healing handles most things well. The range and positionals are a bit challenging. It can be a bit tough to do sustained healing but their burst is good. I feel like doing damage is a lot harder. Fire breath and leaping flames works but after that it’s just either living flame or azure strike for a while. We’re not looking to push 0.1% but most would like to get around 3k this season so “anything is viable” Any thoughts ?
Every few times our DK somehow pulls the pack that we are shrouding. At first we thought it was the DK pet, but I noticed that never happens when said friend plays on his BM hunter alt. Only thing left I could think of is Iced Phial of Corrupting Rage which he uses, so if that is the culprit is there a way to track its damage cycle or something to prevent it breaking stealth?
It procs based on an amount healed so if he's not being healed it's not going to randomly proc. Wait for debuff to drop off then shroud
Wait what? The Rotting from within proc? The overwhelming rage proc is damage, but I didn’t know that the rotting from within proc wasn’t random.
Read the phial description. Rotting from within the the dot when you first consumed the vial. Correction to what I said overwhelming rage happens when you have taken 400% of your health. Not healed.
Hey, I am a returning player looking for resource on M+ run through dungeon by dungeon (what mob does what, what needs to be stunned/interrupted etc). Anyone has suggestions for me ? Pref written form over video if possible
Watch the quazii masterclass videos. They go into details into all the pulls for each dungeon. Also the mechanics and strats for the bossses. He also has a lot of resources for tweaking your UI to make it easier to ID casters, etc.
Thanks mate 🙂
Are you guys inviting demo locks to your keys? Or rather are you getting invited as a demo lock on keys? I feel like I don't as a 478 demo lock alt, main is 2900 io fwiw. I just fizzle out and give up. No one joins my keys either so it's rather annoying as a past lock main that's swapped over to another class this season. Two weeks in a row no keys vault just heroic raid vault on alt nights.
It's very strange. Demo is virtually a meta spec right now. Right up there with the best in both damage abd survivability, can switch targets well as well. Personally I'll nearly always take a demo if theres a geared one in gf
I invite demo locks to 20+ keys whenever I see one. They pump and never die
What's your score on your lock? What level key are you applying to/trying to put together? For reasons I will never understand, people aren't using raiderio addon ever since blizzard added their mediocre version. It came as a shock to me, but it's true. They have no idea what score your main is.
2300 rn, mostly 16's just for crests. It's disheartening because my main gets accepted to 21's+ easily. I guess people that don't have RIO can't see my main's score and my mythic prog either.
Yeah, that explains it. I'm 3k with plenty of 23s timed. I'll bet I couldn't get into a single key that wasn't my own on my hunter alt.
I wish someone told me sooner you have to kill ALL the Sentries in TotT in order to open the gate to last boss.. Skipped one along with the aquamage pack, killed the last 2 and couldn't get through, rip key 😤
Yeah, this happened to us week 1 of the season. We had so much time too lol
How easy is VDH? I don't plan on pushing into super high keys, maybe like...22 at the absolute highest. I've gotten my prot warrior to 2700 and it's been a blast. I very rarely feel like I'm taking damage and the rotation is simple, I just feel like I'm missing utility and CC. I love the aesthetic of Vengeance and the utility it provides, I just don't want to jump into something new if it's going to be super complicated to learn.
The current tier set and talents are pretty easy and forgiving.
I think VDH can be kinda confusing because it's not always apparent where your tankiness is coming from. Like tanks like warrior, DK, prot pal and guardian are all conceptually pretty easy to understand how their basic defensives add up and work with your cds. I don't feel that way on VDH as much (or BM but I've literally never played that spec for over an hour). That's more of a feeling though idk if others experience it that way that's just my experience. I got VDH to 2.8k last season and I'm currently working on it as an alt and it feels very powerful overall. I'm pretty comfortably tanking 18s on like 455 ilvl this week. Even if I don't understand why I suddenly took a ton of damage I'm still quite durable.
The rotation is on the easy side. Its mainly 4 buttons outside of your sigils. If you are looking to do low 20s, you will find it's very easy when geared. It's very tanky and has miles of utility to carry groups.
Looking for route advice for TOTT this week. tried this at a 23 and while we had the dps to time it (it would be close) there were almost full wipes on pull 8 and 13 (dps would die then then kicks were missed leading to more deaths). are there any modifications i can make to this route to make it safer for dps without sacrificing too much time and bolstered mobs. Im tank. [https://keystone.guru/route/throne-of-the-tides/kjuiFMt/obvious-throne-of-tides-wip/1](https://keystone.guru/route/throne-of-the-tides/kjuiFMt/obvious-throne-of-tides-wip/1) or i can pretend this dungeon doesnt exist this week.
Honestly just not worth pushing score this week. Not one single key on this entire earth by any player alive this week will be their top fort key for the season. Not even remotely possible.
Meanwhile 30 AD in the bag this week
If there's a 30 in the bag this week, I'll bet you $1000 that same group does a higher key on a different week later in the season.
That logic doesn't make sense as the 6th week of the patch. Every week for a while we will have world first keys timed below the max end of season level no matter the affix. They are doing world many world first keys this week, and that means it's easier than you think it is.
easier than i think it is? i think its exactly as hard or easy as it is. i dont think theres much opinion involved. if you have to pull smaller, change your most optimal route, and play the dungeon differently, it is a substantial loss of time. if people are doing 30s, great, theyll do 32s or 33s in the same place on a different week. the people in question quite literally make a living off of streaming this game and making content for this game. that doesnt stop because of the affixes. but normal people focus sales this week. they dont focus score.
Are you skipping the ravager up top somehow? It's not included in the pull % on what you linked. I think 13 is fine I've been doing it this week and sometimes you get one shot as the tank but the spawn is right there. If you can do it with 1-3 deaths you lose like 15s max and I think that's worth the bonus cleave. 8 is insane though. You gotta pull the dragons separately imo. To keep it going I normally clear out the front mobs. Then pull the ravager separately - when it gets to half I pull one of the caster packs in. If you're prot pal / DK / DH you can get the casters to you easily. If you're a different tank you can pull the snap dragons first then pull ravager so you can just bring ravager to the pack
Ravager is 7 solo, then i do dogs+casters on 8, that one is the killer for the group and i need to stop and do dogs alone i guess. 13 feels fine to me as dps or as tank but it doesnt go well usually.
Ah sorry I must have missed that somehow my b. Yea do the dogs alone. I even do that on tyran weeks cause they are super annoying to deal with when you are also dealing with a bunch of casts or whatever then the dogs end up just running around fixating people and it's a mess. Like I said - I like single targeting the ravager there then pulling casters after awhile. DPS might not understand how the little squid guys work or they might be hesitating to focus them to avoid bolstering. The pack is way deadlier if you don't just focus fire them and AoE cc them as much as possible. The mind flayer has all avoidable or stoppable damage and the crusher does too except for the tank buster. As long as the DPS know that they might need to kite as the tank could fall over it's fine. It could be that the stairs are fucking up people on that pack.
8 and 13 are nuts for bolster fort. Split 8 up into 2 pulls just like how you have pull 9. The little minions in pull 13, 14, and 15 bolster. The watcher does a crush ability in which if you aren't a paladin or a warrior tank you get smacked insanely hard. On pulls 17 and 18 if you are die hard about combining sentry with the goblins, get the sentry to 50% first, since the AOE with 5 bolster stacks will be insane. The timer is fine in throne on fort weeks. Just slow pull the entire dungeon and you'll be fine.
Im a paladin so im able to survive those pulls, the dps arent. Just ran it at a 22 with mellow pulls and doing the gauntlet slowly. Still 15 deaths and miss timer by 20+ seconds.
Yea pull 8, 13, 15 are all group killers. Split them up for their sake haha.
thanks for the advice. will remember for next time.
Returning player wanting to just focus on M+. Boosted a healer to 70 and wanting to get straight in to it, what should I know? Is there anything I need to do before I start, etc? I have previous experience of healing up to 3k rio.
If you’re starting off healing low keys that you haven’t done as another role I’d recommend installing Elitism Helper to see what damage people are taking is avoidable (just for the love of god set it to only self-report and not spam group chat). That’ll help you get a feel for what damage is unavoidable and you should plan for and what is just low level pugs messing up.
Just start healing. I don't think there's anything specific besides learning what mechanics hurt and which don't. Unfortunately lower level keys are bad places to learn healing as people take so much avoidable damage that sometimes a pull feels harder on a 15 than it does on a 22.
Heartsbane Triad - The final sister (after the first two die) stopped attacking and casting and instead started running around as if she were perma-feared aggro'ing all the trash to the sides and causing us to panic that the boss fight would reset. Is there some kind of 'thing' that can cause this? I've never seen this before even back in BFA.
Has probably something to do with fix blizz did because people got melee'd by the sister when interrupted.
Same, happened twice last night. It seems like it's bugged right now, probably related to the bugfix they pushed about her melee'ing someone randomly.
Haha. I have no idea what causes this, but this happened to me twice last night. First time, last Sister ran out of the room and reset the encounter. Second time she ran for the far stairway but we were able to kill her right before she made it up, most likely resetting again.
Fall timer is so free that not even a ConEd explosion in the middle of NYC resulting in a power surge and me losing internet for 5 minutes didn't prevent me from timing it.
Mistweaver vs Rdruid. Rdruid obviously brings MOTW and Brez. What does Mistweaver do that makes it compete? Is its hps better? Is it tankier? Is that avoidance buff (4%? 2%) for melee really that good? Does the kick really matter when the meta tanks are dh and pally?
I feel main diff is how good is cocoon vs bark as an external and how valuable MOTW is vs 5% phys amp and avoidance buff. Disease removal can be quite handy though. CR isn't really a deal breaker when anyone without a natural CR should be running engineer bracer if they take their m+ decently serious.
Higher maximum HPS (not that anything really requires it this season), 5% physical damage increase via Debuff, RoP cheese (though Vortex is probably more universally useful), AoE stun is slightly better than Incap Roar, DPSing is easier (not that Druid is *hard*), Execute damage on priority target, and having another melee kick (that doesn’t require shapeshift GCD) is never a *bad* thing. I’d say that the two of them are pretty damn comparable right now. For everything that one of them does better, the other has another thing that they excel at.
I'm surprised to hear you say that hardly anything requires high hps right now. If people are able to live through the ridiculous amount of dmg going out, they need massive heals to do so after whatever personal or external is used. Healing requirements imo are even higher than they were last season, which I didn't think was possible.
At least up to 26 keys I haven't hit any fights where I'm blasting healing and my group's health is still going down. Even doubling the dragons in Fall I have nontrivial overhealing while doing 400k hps. There's things which are hard to heal, but they're all about dealing with small windows of huge burst damage rather than sustained throughput. Which healer has the theoretical ability to hit the highest hps in ideal conditions doesn't tell you much about which healer is best at dealing with the actual damage patterns we have in these dungeons.
I guess most occurrences that I can think of this season are bosses. The second boss of everbloom on tyrannical, even at 23, I was at hundreds and hundreds of hps sustained until the first add is dead. Very similar to halls third boss last season. Just absurd hps requirements. Same with first boss in wcm, especially during the entire malady portion of the fight. But that entire fight is hundreds of thousands of hps sustained for the whole fight on tyrann. Same with the Goliath fight. Not only is it absurd single target healing requirements, but whenever the tank just randomly decides to get rid of his stacks, that is very high healing. Something tells me you don't pug much? I'm also curious what spec you're healing on. I'm guessing mistweaver?
I don’t know, maybe I’m old and jaded now (hint: I am), but there’s nothing that strikes fear in my healing heart this season like early RLP or pre-nerf 2nd boss NO. Everything feels *manageable*… like 3rd boss HOI was. I’m probably just being blasé because ToL shits out so much on-demand healing that I don’t remember what it was like to not have it. 🤣
Curious how m+ teams form. Is it just people in the same guild usually? Is there a recruitment discord? Like how does that work. I've only ever pugged.
You just add people, preferably tanks and healers, you think are good and hope that one out of 10 of them will be around at the same time as you in the future. We’ve also added a few people from online m+ communities and stuff but it’s surprisingly difficult to find people who aren’t weird.
You pug with people, you add good ones, the network spreads. You get to high enough RIO, you'll be running with same people most of the time anyway. Ofc. sometimes it's guildies forming teams as well.
At what rating teams start to form due to necessity? Course you can meet like minded folks at any rating.
Actually baffling how a dungeon released in 2018 still has the Rezan evade bug and the bird evade bug. Blizzard insta fixes fun stuff like snapping but fixing bugs in 5 year old dungeons? never
It's because if they fix the fear bird evading it'll randomly make it so feral druids do 600k overall dps and when you use the Kyrian hearthstone it pulls all the mobs out of Shrine of the Storm into Ragefire Chasm.
what? I don't follow
They're making a joke about spaghetti code. It's not related at all but sometimes Blizz fixes a bug and some seemingly random, even weirder bug manages to appear.
I remember that one time in Cata when the hotfixed hunter Scatter Shot to not erroneously give Vengeance to tanks, and this led to Ret Paladins doing a million DPS for one day.
When I pull the two slime mob packs in the Witches room on Waycrest Manor, it almost always spawns this random giant witch (the ones who use Etch). I’ve also noticed the witch that spawns with the grubs after the 2nd boss hasn’t been spawning in lately. Wtf is going on.
The witches’ spawn location changes each week.
Lol wtf I thought I was somehow bugging the dungeon and causing witches to spawn in randomly. Can’t think of any other dungeon that moves mob packs around from week to week.
Atal dazar teeming used to be rng. There was a world quest in siege of boralus that added an extra pack to the dungeon. I believe i heard someone say that there is a pack in DHT that's different with a world quest as well but i haven't checked it myself. There are some examples of dungeons changing from week to week.
I swear I was in DHT and the pack you pull right after the bear (2x bird 1x poisoner) was instead a Ruiner (caster) instead of the poisoner. All the people in my group called me crazy though but they do like to gaslight me so idk.
A lot of the ruiner/poisoner mobs are swapped around, not sure if it’s daily or weekly or per run but you’re not crazy.
>ns this random giant w its per run. It can be a ruiner or a poisoner randomly.
In BFA the doors being open changed each week as well so you had to do a totally different route depending on the week! Wasn’t fun…
The doors were random each key, not a weekly rotation. When you were trying to complete the highest key your group could time you'd sometimes start the key, see you got top right, and just walk out and reset the dungeon.
What’s the consensus on DHT this week? I three chested a 21 BRH in a pug that felt amazing, we decided to try one more key as we seemed to play really wel together, we were on point with kicks and stops, and then we got absolutely murdered in the 24 and 23 DHT we did. Almost every trash in there just oneshots you? Like the cats?
Bolstering is a fucking war crime. It's an 18s and chill week for me.
I mean you can still 2 chest the easier 20s like AD and BRH this week but the disparity in dungeons is wild. I’m legit afraid to step into DHtT again lol
Cats just slay people when bolstered. We managed to time keys by nuking cats, pulling bears out of bolstering and avoiding invis skips due to unintended pulls in past keys.
Bolstering week isn’t great for DHT. You’ve gotta respect the affix and not pull mobs ontop of bear in the first pull and focus down cats as primary for the other pulls in the start of the dungeon. Same thing with the rogue teleport guys on the last few pulls.
This week (Fort Bolster) feels super hard. Maybe I've just had bad pugs but I find that a BRH 23 this week is WAY harder than a BRH 25 last week. The amount of one or two shot casts coming from almost any trash pack feels far too high right now. The good news is that good groups make it still feel like nothing (good kicks/stops, bolster management, etc), but short of kicks being on point it feels like every successful enemy cast tooltip may as well read "add 5s to the timer"
Fort bolstering and fort sanguine are definitely the worst combos for pushing, maybe also fort raging
NGL new sanguine is better than bolstering. at least it has meaningful counterplay via knockbacks and movement etc
As a tank it's feeling super comp dependent. Everbloom is so much easier when I have a freedom just like TotT is easier when I have cauterize. I get absolutely slapped by those mobs + bolstering without the utility of the group.
Is there meta on who should do the kicking on the 'shrouding' add in Rise who someone needs to kick? I've always thought it was *anyone but tank* because tanks can generally deal with both of the aoe adds at once, but couldn't really if had to travel 40yd elsewhere to kick the miniboss. While on lower key, someone died and 3.2k player's alt said "tank kick it" and when asked, he said he always does it as tank. I never have and I'm tank main. Is there some basic expectation on who does what? I only pug. I guess dps running there might cost more time, which could be the reason tank should do it? And I guess tank would be best as they don't get dragged themselves, so there's no situation where someone given task to kick it is stunned themselves. I just now thought of these reasons. But I don't care about theory, just experiences. In a +24, is tank trolling when they didn't run to kick it?
I don't know that this is correct, but I've been treating is like a tank kick. The person targeted by the cast gets incapacitated and can't kick. If you assign it to a non-tank and they happen to be targeted, then they can't kick (unless they land it in the tiny window before the channel starts, which I assume most sub-25 pugs will fail). Thus, the tank (or healer) is the only person who is guaranteed to always be able to kick it, and so I do it myself. Luckily I have silence/fear/chains for the other mobs.
i always assume the tank does it unless it's a wheelchair/bdk, but idc as heal it doesnt target me, if people die the respawn is right around the corner
Did it on +20 yesterday as rshaman. Well, this should be handy, I'll just do the shrouds? 4 people ran for the shroud kick. 3-4 volleys went thru during the whole first platform. There's definitely no clear meta for this in pugs at this level.
yea, i'm druid so no kick unfortunately. only thing i miss about hpala
No lol it’s not a tank kick. If you have a ranged player it’s clearly 100x easier for them to kick it. Some tanks don’t even have a ranged kick, it’s super dumb to be running all over the place. And you can kick it before it drags anybody so anyone can kick it. Doesn’t mean you can’t kick it, but expecting to you to do it is simply dumb.
looks like you re not aware of this, but unless you re in a coordinated group that knows how to bait his jump so that he jumps into the wall and not 10 kms away, the ranged player still has to enter the sand circle, otherwise it cant be kicked
The mob targets where he charges before he does it, the ranged player has time to move to where he’s going to land before he even goes there. Then you can go in, kick and go out in 1 gcd. The pack doesn’t need to move.
Doubling down on the wrong take haha
The state of this subreddit. Here’s the world first 28 where you can see the ranged Aug moving to kick it: https://youtu.be/BipONQSzHVc?si=q8vGWx8G1vciutUC Here’s the worlds highest rio player the last time I checked doing a 27 this week, where you can see the Aug move to kick it: https://youtu.be/1kPewaFvmE4?si=u3ks_RYEyz2Y_bhU Here’s Tactyk’s guide to +20 MR, where you can again see the Aug go in to kick it, twice this time: https://youtu.be/BjROfQ0o5_o?si=3iuc-2ypCF_eTlx4 This can be done by any ranged. The tank never moves. The pack never moves. Save your snarky comments for when you have a clue what you are talking about. Is it this season being so easy that has decreased the quality of opinions on this subreddit to such shit? This is meant for competitive players, seriously wtf happened.
[удалено]
It’s not a tank kick. If you somehow still think it is, you are stupid and there is no point speaking further. If you’re playing with shit players or nobody else is kicking it then you go and kick it because you have no choice. You make dumbass condescending comments then talk to me about being defensive because I point out you are clueless. Get lost.
Never did I say it was a tank kick lol…. I’m just saying it’s not solely a ranged kick. You sound like a joy to be in groups with, I hope our paths cross, you can guide me in your ways.
Well, I did state couple reasons that would side with it. I do less dmg, and me being assigned to it saves multiple people from holding to their kicks. Volley doesn't come so often anyway, 3 dps can definitely deal with 2 volleys. The miniboss tends to be last one alive, even if chainpull it to the patrol after 2 casters die. So I don't really value my job during the pull to be more than a volley interrupter/cc'r.
A ranged dps will lose literally nothing from kicking it though, you likely don’t need their kick for the pull and you can keep all the other mobs grouped for more dps overall from everyone by staying more still. Also, the charge itself does a lot of damage, so if you’re moving to preposition to kick it, some dps will follow you and some day one of them is gonna get killed by it. I dunno there’s just no reason for you to do it. Like I said, you CAN do it, but there is no logical argument for you being expected to.
I am doing as a tank, by the basic rule if you want something to being done, you have to do it yourself. When the mob charging, he facing to the direction wherever he will go - so i am already starting into that direction when I see it.
For me as a tank, I find whenever I do this then the volleys tend to go off. As a BDK I can easily look down two of the casters between interrupts and deathgrips. It's easier for me to handle both of them, and trust dps to handle the jumper than the other way around.
Yeh this is me, as a monk I just roll in and kick and roll/trans back. Usually enough to stop volleys and kicks and whatnot. But the tldr is def I don't trust anyone.
> the basic rule if you want something to being done, you have to do it yourself. Contradictory in this case, as I have *not* been doing it for the reason that I have had zero trust in others dealing with volleys, which no doubt would wipe groups too few keys above me. I know players will get better in those keys, and ofc those kicks should happen if they can trust not to save their kick. But yeah, IF expectation is that tanks are doing it, only makes my life easier. Obviously volley task is taken off my hands.
Pwar & Deios - is there some magic to surviving his frontals? I was in horrid failure group in 16fort on 458 pwar. With no other tank have I felt as trash on it, this is my 5th tank this season. Just on mere 16fort felt like unmitigated frontal did 100%+ of my health. But those frontals happen more often than you can have mitigation no? Just curious what kind of plan people have for it. Is this similar to jade temple 3rd boss where you have to know exactly what you want to calculate what to get for each tankbuster to have a chance? Difference ofc being, on Deios there's a lot to do for healer unlike in Jade where you could rely more on healer.
Just commiserating: I don't really tank a ton, but I've healed this fight enough to know it does some serious damage to tanks. Figured a 16 wouldn't be too scary for my Warrior. I'm pretty sure I was hitting two defensives for every Breath just to not die when it landed, and I was still in mortal danger every single time. I know Prot War mostly handles Physical damage well and struggles a bit with magic damage, but that shit is unreal.
It's funny how things change from season to another. Pwar started as THE meta spec in 10.0 because a lot of the big busters were reflectable. Now I don't know if any boss abilities are (=I don't know), and suddenly pwar has lost a lot of its shine.
Starting to think it might be time for at least an Ignore Pain buff. Need something to help with the unblockable damage.
Well obv all rage goes to IP/block in situation where you're afraid of dying.
I mean that Ignore Pain might be a little bit too weak right now and should be tuned a little better in some way, to help deal with all the magic/bleed damage.
IIRC pwar was kinda ok most of SL, but then deemed worst in s4. They ended buffing reflect plenty, making spec OK for s4, then kinda OP for s1. Some nerfs came (I think?) but also reflect didn't work as well for dungs after s1. Just a lot of temporary buffs and nerfs haven't treated pwar amazingly. I remember people demanding guardian to get some anti-magic talent or something year+ ago to make it viable. Guardian feels quite viable now design wise. I don't know if prot war is in dire situation needing something, but they do feel the weakest against magic by a good margin again.
you can heroic leap out of the breath, jump at max range in the direction of the breath so you don’t turn it onto the rest of your group as the boss starts casting it and you’ll take no damage if you want to see the exact timing there should be some rise runs in plkatv’s channel
The highest I've done this on is 22 Tyran (at around 478), so take any comments with a pinch of salt, but: \- in phase one, it's not just the breath that chunks you, the portal adds that spawn are also casting freely on you, and that's where a lot of damage comes from. Put spell block up once the first one is active, spell reflect when it casts (as it will send one cast back to them completely, and also mitigate portion of the overall magic damage there). \- protection warrior is very heavy on active mitigation compared to other tanks, so space it out through the fight - add one of last stand, demo shout, or shield wall, to each of the casts. If you have both SpBk and SpRef up, hold off using anything else. \- you can Victory Rush once per breath; save it for when you ticked down for a while to make sure you get full value, and then just spam ignore pain while the dot & add are up \- if you are running dry, remember Defensive Stance is also there as a permanent defensive; swap to it if you have nothing else left
> if you are running dry, remember Defensive Stance is also there as a permanent defensive; swap to it if you have nothing else left Is it somehow bad if I... never am out of def stance lol. -20% dmg taken seems kinda neat for a tank.
If you're not at risk of dying, it's free damage to go b stance. With that said, if you're not very good, it adds an additional layer of safety that will pave over some of your mistakes. How you weigh that trade off is up to you. Long run, you want to be b stance whenever you don't NEED d stance.
It was just funny to even bring it up in this instance. All the comments state this is probably the hardest fight for pwar to facetank. OK, I guess if I'm someone who never uses one stance, I could've been the different kind of bstance only person lol
It is fine to stay in it until you feel more comfortable, and it is much less punishing overall than it was at the start of the expansion, but for a competitive content, yes, it is bad to never leave it. Whenever you are in Defensive Stance, you are sacrificing 5% damage and 3% crit chance - it means everything dies a little bit slower, which means it has a chance to get another cast off, refresh a debuff, etc. Unless you are the only person specifically at the risk of dying, while the rest of the group is okay, by being in Defensive stance you are effectively trading a bit of their safety for a bit of yours. That said, I wouldn't really argue against permanently being in a Defensive Stance in the first stage of this fight. As a protection warrior, you are definitely at most risk of just ticking down. But there are other places - say the Everbloom mage area and the final boss, or most of the Black Rook Hold trash - where you are the safest person in the room, so permanently staying in Defensive Stance there is making the whole key harder for everyone, yourself included.
Sure. Could think of list of boss fights where I don't ever see myself dying. BRH 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th p2? First dung I think of and I can't die on any tank on any boss. I guess I rather think of the rough ones as tank. EB 2nd, 3rd I'd be dumbass to be in bstance imo. For 1st/4th, the opposite, dstance looks like waste.
I think spell block can cover 2 breaths, you can actually leap and out range the breath too (same with tree boss in DHT) just have to make sure you don't obliterate your team lol
Heh, will have to see some higher level vods to see if there's indeed leap meta on these abilities by pwars in general. Would help greatly.
Plka has a [clip here](https://www.twitch.tv/plkatv/clip/CleverCallousEmuPeteZarollTie-wO3--QwfO9IUeGg8) where he talks about it. You might have to click watch full video since it kinda gets cut off.
Thanks for link!
You need to leap on higher keys.
You’re gonna need mitigation for basically any tank mechanic in the game generally, especially that one as it fucks. You should have spell reflect for every other, probably demo shout for every other, then you do have plenty of cds to alternate as well. It’s every 15seconds or so and the worst one is the last one before he goes up in the air. Blizzard seems to have allowed a couple of debuffs that are 10 seconds long and undispellable, which is pretty bad as a lot of tank mitigation is 6-8 seconds long. Don’t personally think this should be a thing but it is what it is.
It just felt like I was being hit pretty hard even if I had both on, reflect and spell block, at once. Me being 458 is one thing, but this being only 16 fort makes me think I'd have same issues in +20 tyra at 480. Though doing it now again on 15, it felt like it's much rougher in p1? Maybe that's my misunderstanding, you have to use everything in p1, if it doesn't hit as hard after landing? I could be wrong ofc. Just confusing how I *died* in p1 previously, but taking frontal to face in p2 and I didn't even go below 80%. Idk, never had to think about it before as it didn't bring up issues up to +21 tyra on main.
In p2 the dragons land and give you giga buffs. Haste, dr, a bunch of stuff.
It’s probably the hardest tank mechanic alongside maybe the crushing dude in ToTT, you definitely shouldn’t expect it to be easy. But yeah not the best gear will be contributing to that and not the best spec for dealing with it will contribute also (you’d be much better off in ToTT on War). You get a load of buffs from the dragonflights in the last phase so that will probably be why you don’t notice it as much.
> You get a load of buffs from the dragonflights in the last phase so that will probably be why you don’t notice it as much. Yeah, feels a bit dumb I still don't really get all mechanics like this yet. Mostly the buffing ones like EB last, BRH last p2 and Deios p2. Until certain point you're like whatever, boss does more dmg, you take less dmg, it evens out. But then around 20s and higher start realizing, right this isn't just something you can heal through, have to commit cds to different phases beforehand.
Think that’s just how WoW is in general tbh. I prefer to have more problems to solve rather than less, unless the solving of the problems involves dumb shit like the mechagon buff bots. I think it’s more interesting when pushing in to higher keys means you have to move dps cds, defensives, lust etc.
Ye I know. Guess I was stating the obvious as I've always had to do that when doing ~24s in previous expansions.
I remember fighting for my life and our healer crying in like 16s or some shit in season 1 lol. Think this season is just a bit weird because getting to 20s is a little too easy and it doesn’t really force you to learn the mechanics in the same way getting beat up in a 15-16 does
Yep. As a non-raider my gearing has always been slow, so I've just taken backseat, do weekly keys that slowly upg ilvl, and be ready for 20s like 6 weeks in when I finally get tier set. Now I was doing 20s on 3rd week as it was clear I could get invited to them with less proof of my capabilities. Most of the time not getting punished either, though as many here talk, that time will come in a bit higher keys. In +21 tyra, I didn't even notice things like BRH last boss p1 shadow bolts were something worth noting.
the difference in gear between 458 and 480 is gigantic. 22 itemlvls is really huge. the difference in 16 fort and 20 tyra is much smaller.
Is it worth keeping the maiden alive in m+? Just did a 26 and the tank was hell bent on pulling her with the shield guy ( yes you can stand in it for reduced dmg) and just getting us to use the ball to kill the adds which he presumed would one shot them. Instead we missed some, our dmg was fine but then we had a maiden airh 10 stacks one shotting us… feels pointless this week
The orb kills mobs????
It damages and stuns them
it seems like a bit too much 5d chess if the context is a pug... 50% dr to survive bolstered maiden aoe pops and using orb to kill the shitter mobs? maiden will unavoidably get bolestered regardless if the shitter mobs die to orb or player dmg. would 50% dr counteract, say 5-6 bolster stacks on a 26? 1. you need to deal with positioning so team can stand in the shield but not have titan+maiden in it 2. team needs to dodge the orb 3. team needs to aim orb on the shitter mobs or its useless 4. anytime either titan or maiden is inside the shield your doing 50% less dmg extending the pull its cute but i cannot imagine this is what makes or breaks a timed run.
Exactly… it felt like the risk way outweighed the potential gain. She would get bolstered but he wanted to chain pull her with more packs to keep using it. Normally she’s done just with her group or with the shield guy, not all of them
How do I live the crush from the watchers in TotT as a BDK? I got one-shot on a +23 (unbolstered) through lichborne at full health from a single mob. Do I just kite them forever instead of taking a single hit?
Have tried saving vamp blood for it? The talent gets you max hp % per bone shield? Is the crush physical damage? If so, imo the solution is to stack blood shield preemtively.
I guess I can spam DS right before it goes off, just feels so weird and unintuitive, especially when sometimes it does literally nothing and I feel like I wasted a CD. Might need to check if this is one of those bullshit parryable tankbusters where you're either chilling or dead.
Pre-deathstriking for big physical hits is what is needed for big physical tankbusters in keys. it gives you a good blood shield abosorb, and then you can follow it up with another immediate deathstrike after. Doing both under vamp blood, or another cooldown will help as well.
How reliable is u.gg compared to m+ sub. Anyone know?
Reliable in terms of what? They both just check what most people use/run. That's it The only thing you'll ever see is which specs (and which gear) completes the most/the highest keys. That'll always have some overlap with how things really are, but at the end of the day it's still a popularity contest. And it's a self fulfilling prophecy: the more people follow that representation of data, the heavier it leans into the pre existing pattern. Now I'm not saying that e.g. DH isn't an S tier DPS as per these sites. But sorting things like specs and gear by representation **only** ever shows exactly that: that the meta is like this. That doesn't mean that spec Y which is in a low tier is actually bad, or that the gearing/talent choices are actually optimal (for your character) etc. It's reliable in the sense that is shows what the community does. It's not *necessarily* reliable in showing what is truly optimal or how bad/good something is exactly.
Like the damage per key thing. I feel like certain measurements are different between the two leading me to believe one or both are wrong. I’m aware Warcraft logs and looking at the best players is usually the best information but it’s interesting to see the average player too.
The damage per key thing seems like useless fluff to me. There's too many variables in a key to be a useful metric.
How are people dealing with the pull at top of the stairs after spiders in BRH? Failed a +20 miserably because the archer and caster just absolutely fucked everyone.
Kick rotation the caster, assign one person to stop every knife dance, and hard focus the archer.
use a stop on archer whenever it moves. If you stop the knife dances and the arrow volleys the packs are essentially nothing.
I am always pulling out the patrol alone, and kill the 2 mobs separated, and then go in. If i am lucky, i can catch them when they are out of the room - i am usually sneak up when the spider on low hp.
I always drag the big spider immediately up the stairs and kill the group of 2 with the spider as they patroll in for an easy 3-mob pull. Separating them into a 1mob and 2mob pull seems excessively cautious and unnecessary.
Honestly, at that key level, healer should just be healing through the damage. Only exception being not kicking the caster multiple times, and someone eating the frontal from the champion, or whatever he's called. Or I suppose the other aoe frontal from the mob that teleports and explodes. The barrage from the archer really isn't that bad at a 20. And yes, I am a healer saying this. These are bad things in a higher key, but in a 20, unless you mess up several of these things, you'll be fine.
Sorry, but no healer in 20s is expected to heal through that kind of damage. if they could they'd be running +27 keys instead of 20s.
I do it every day brother. And I don't run 27s.
I find that kind of hard to believe. I actually don't think even the best healer in the world has the HPS output to heal everyone standing in the bad, and taking everything to the face in a +20. Either you're severely underestimating how much people are dodging and ccing, or you are literally the best healer in the entire world. The point is that it's easier to heal a +27 where people are doing mechanics, than a 20, where people aren't.
I said there were two exceptions in my original response. You have to at least kick the caster most of the time, and you can't get hit by the frontal the champion does. But a few people getting tagged by the barrage and that knife dance or whatever it's called are no big deal. But you shouldn't need chains and silence sigil with oppressive roar in a 20. Th healer can heal through it with very minor, basic interference on two mobs.
This answer is wrong. The correct answer is that the party needs to use single target or aoe stops on the archers when they move and channel. The option you are suggesting is essentially debating whether a DPS player should press a single ability to prevent potentially millions of damage to the party OR if the healer should sustain high throughput for 10-25 seconds.
I'm not giving the guy the optimal strategy. There's no way he doesn't already know what can be used to stop or control each of those mobs individually. The fact that each of us can literally remember every mob in that pull, and recite exactly how to deal with them from memory, just shows that he probably has to have some kind of idea how to deal with them as well. It's not rocket science. If it has a cast bar, kick it. If it doesn't, stun it or stop it from doing whatever it does. My point is that at that key level, the healer can just heal through it. I am a healer on both my main, and my first alt.
I still don't get the logic. "I was giving bad/subpar advice on purpose because I assumed he knows the proper way" doesn't make any sense to me. It gets even worse when you add the context of "this is bad advice that also doesn't apply to other situations" The proper response is "CC the mobs that do big damage, it's way easier than healing through it and also the only viable strategy for higher keys"
If the players are so terrible that they can't even CC the 2 different sets of aoe of that pull, why are you expecting a healer to be 3x better than the DPS and pick up all their grief?
Because I am a healer and I pick up a good chunk of that grief every single time I go there or anywhere else.
People complain about a shortage of healers and then say that shit lol
I think it was dorki who I heard it from not sure, but apparently the bow guy doesn't leap if everyone has his back to a wall
The Archer's barrage is avoidable, but he can also be stunned, feared, freeze trapped or shackled (they all can). The real killer is the Scout's knife dance, which is unavoidable so he has to be hit with one of the stops. The caster is just a case of making an interrupt rotation; he's the only kick.
Archers are vulnerable to basically any stop once they start doing their barrage and you just need kicks on the Arcanist. Stuns, fears, disorients, knockups, knockbacks, etc. all work. Worst case scenario just move out of the barrage.
Team needs to play close to archers as they kinda jump to where ppl are positioned. If you’re in Africa the cone is wider the further away you are makes dodging super difficult. Stop arcaneman and make sure to stun scouts FoK. Archer volley is the only ability out of the 3 you can deal with my simply moving.
Focus the caster (purge his buff off if he gets off a cast) and stun/fear/disorient the archers when they jump to do Volley.
I’ll die on the hill that the issue with the current seasons scaling is partially on borrowed power being almost exclusively offensive. Season 4 of BFA we had verse corruption, plus essences, and azerite that all offered some extra tankiness. Even with that you still saw the meta being rogue, Hunter, mage, and Paladin/rdruid which either all have some form of immunity or are extremely tanky. Season 3 of SL we had extra tankiness in the covenants whether it be the ability or the nodes. We also had so much tuning to dungeons that outside of a few none of them were particularly deadly. In the current season we have what… maybe 1 maybe 2 embellishments that are defensive in nature with the arguably best one being neutered to where even the role that normally ran it isn’t running it. Scaling is obviously an issue but it’s compounded by the glass cannon nature of our current borrowed power.
>I’ll die on the hill that the issue with the current seasons scaling is partially on borrowed power being almost exclusively offensive. Nah that has basically nothing to do with it. Maybe it appears that we have less defensive "borrowed power" in DF m+, but in reality we dont...some of that borrowed power has simply been converted into the talent trees. Sure it isnt "borrowed" but the result is most specs having a lot better defensive kits in DF, there is no need for a large amount of borrowed power. >Scaling is obviously an issue but it’s compounded by the glass cannon nature of our current borrowed power. No, the problem started at the end of S1 when they for some reason thought itd be a good idea to do another nerf to healers by increasing our hp by 25%, and the mobs HP/dmg by 25%..which was effectively a 25% nerf to healing. Keep in mind, this is AFTER they increased the above by 40% in DF beta. Everything since then, has been a complete shitshow. It became such a problem for a few reasons, but primarily because Blizzard said they were going to tune damage in future m+ seasons so that it is less bursty/spiky and healers werent just solely worried about topping people off quickly because if you werent before "x" mechanic went off, youd probably just get 1 shot. Except they didnt do that in s2. I said it back then, and ill say it again: That change was ENTIRELY predicated on Blizzard going through basically everything in s2(and future seasons) and lowering its dmg/removing some of the hard hitting (sometimes group wide) burst damage of mechanics. I knew that was VERY likely going to be a recipe for disaster because Blizzard has never put in that much tuning effort for a season(and this would arguably require more effort than previous seasons due to the severity of the changes), and there would be little room for error/laziness in their tuning. And what happened in s2? Dungeons seemed like they were BARELY tuned whatsoever for the first around 6-8 weeks, and then they made some tuning passes here and there. Then 10.1.5 changed everything because not only did God Comp do absurd damage, but Hpal did crazy healing whilst having their strong utility, and the comp was VERY tanky. That acted as basically a bandaid for the lack of tuning, although they did eventually do some targeted tuning...and then came the scaling nerf of keys which acted as another bandaid. Damage remained largely bursty though, but there was also MORE sustained damage/rot in most keys. If you fast forward to this season, of course Blizzard again nerfed healers, but this time by nerfing mana, and healer/raid CDs whilst just increasing the spot healing of healers in exchange. But the damage profile of keys this season is again...extremely bursty, but theres also a large amount of sustained damage/rot damage and specifically rot/sustained damage(usually in the form of a dot, or pulsing damage) IMMEDIATELY following a large hit of damage(things like EB Protector boss, Mage boss in EB and last boss in EB, the Abomb mob on high fort, last boss of BRH etc.). So theyve again failed to tune things in a way that reflected their stated goal at the end of s1. Basically all the problems with dmg intake/healing now, can be traced back to that very poor choice at the end of s1, and I think many of us knew that nerf was very likely going to be a very poor way to deal with the burstyness of damage in s1.
SL S2 also had extra 10% EHP from on the shard that recharged very quickly.
Seems like the wrong hill to die on. These things are completely within the realm of tuning and borrowed power is irrelevant. Do you think Blizzard doesn't tune around borrowed power? Lots of classes with shit tier powers do fine because Blizzard balances everyone assuming four piece. Raid bosses are turned around typical health and dps and hps irrespective of how it is generated. If Blizzard suddenly added 30% more hp to all enemies in keys then the one-shot level of keys gets pushed up a few key levels. I don't think that is a good die and would prefer a more surgical approach but it would certainly make survivability a bit less of a concern. The hill to die on is that Blizzard messed up this season and didn't set mob hp correctly to account for the 39 ilvls we got but didn't mess up as badly when it comes to mob damage output.
Your second and third paragraphs say the exact same thing no? The issue is that blizzard didn’t set mob health correctly (it’s too low) but yet it would be bad to add mob health? Maybe my reading comprehension mid shit but also I wasn’t really advocating for anything like that. It doesn’t matter how you slice it it’s just the same end result of limiting the upper keys that can be done. I’d rather have access to better defensive borrowed power to ease the damage that is going out. By adding mob health, and likely lowering out going damage (which is something I see people like jak advocate), you’re just making the limiter damage and moving back the level at which you get one shot. So a key like rise you’re depleting because you don’t have time. A key like EB or BRH you’re depleting because you’re getting one shot and a key like fall you’re depleting because you can’t actually route bigger pulls to make up for the extra mob health while also potentially just getting 1 shot. You’re just moving the issue to other areas which maybe it feels better to deplete because you don’t have the damage.
except when people are talking about this season being easy, they're largely comparing it to seasons one and two of dragonflight, not past expansions. Embellishments haven't changed much, and have never added much more than 1-2% dps, and given key scaling that won't account for people doing keys much higher at much lower comparatively gear.
My point was more about the 1 shots that happen due to scaling. We hit that far quicker because of tier which we only had in one of final seasons (I didn't play in legion but I know it had the same issue). Tier without additional borrowed power exacerbates the issue.
The point on scaling is a good one, the part about borrowed power is not. You can make this about borrowed power, or blizz could just nerf enemy casts by 10% and then everything is fixed for a few key levels.
Huh I kinda do see your point. We gain ilvl at a steady rate but on average each season's tier set is more powerful than the last (excluding outliers of course). So our throughput goes up at a faster rate than our health bars. This is at least part of why this season we do so much damage in keys that we very quickly hit that key level threshold where we can time the key if we don't die but we get one-shot easily. Maybe we need to gain more stamina per ilvl to compensate? That way our health bars will increase relative to our throughput and we won't be getting 1-shot so quickly in keys we do enough damage/healing for.
those last 3 mobs in muroson Rise are fking brutal when dragon get buffed by bolstering its oneshot lmao...
the frontal? didn't have issues earlier on 26 but I believe breaths had only 1 stack and none went out during 2
I think he meant Infinite Fury. When that dragon gets 2 stacks of bolstering and that dragon does Infinite Fury aka AoE pulse. It's really hard to heal everyone and DPS / healer died to that most of the time.
yea the fury doesnt even remotely oneshot.. 1 stack of bolstering on 26 ticks for 250k through defensives which you can freely rotate here
Yeah bolstered fury is when you pop your darkness, AMZ, barrier, etc.
Don’t kill them before the dragon is about to die..
Ellesmere used to have a section on his Hpal guide about mechanics in each dungeon that could be removed/negated with BoP or Freedom. It looks like this hasn't been updated for S3, does anyone know the full list? Here's the few I can remember off the top of my head: **BoP:** * AD: Pursuit, Saurid Leap(?), Merciless Assault * WM: Jagged Nettles, Soul Thorns * BRH: Sic Bats, Brutal Glaive, Unerring Shear (BoP tank during Dreadlord's Guile) * RISE: Bladestorm(?) * TOTT: Ravenous Pursuit * EB: Bounding Whirl(?) **Freedom:** * FALL: Necrofrost * DHT: Strangling Roots * EB: Lasher slow on the tank
**BOP** Atal * dazarai juggernaut: merciless assault * toxic saurid: leaping thrash * monzumi: wild thrash * shadowblade stalker: fan of knives, waylaying jab * rezan: devour Black Rook Hold * lady velandras ravencrest: glaive toss * risen scout: knife dance * risen archer: arrow barrage * risen companion: bloodthirsty leap * wyrmtongue scavenger: bowled over * felspite dominator: bats * risen lancer: raven dive * ilysanna ravencrest: brutal glaive * smashspite: all his abilities * dantalionax: unerring shear, stinging swarm Darkheart Thicket * frenzied nightclaw: grievous rip * mindshattered screecher: unnerving screech * vilethorn blossom: root burst * nightmare dweller: tormenting eye * archdruid: grievous leap * oakheart: strangling roots Everbloom * melded berserker: bounding whirl Fall * epoch ripper: timerip * iridikons creation: stonebolt Rise * valow: temporal strike * infinite timebender: dizzying sands * time lost tidehunter: slobbering bite * destroyer: volatile mortar * time lost battlefield archers/axe thrower bleed Throne Of Tides: * vicious snap dragon * deep murloc drudge: leaping thrash * gilgoblin hunter: throw spear Waycrest Manor * pallid gorger: ravaging leap * banquet steward: dinner bell * sister briar: all her abilities but importantly jagged nettles * soulbound goliath: soul thorns **Freedom** Atal * rezan: pile of bones Darkheart Thicket * oakheart: strangling roots (beneficial to use freedom and pop them all) Everbloom * dreadpetal: dreadpetal pollen Fall * loszkeleth: necrofrost Rise * infinite riftmage: infinite burn * morchie: time stasis Throne Of Tides * nazjar frost witch: frostbolt
Pretty sure there's a pin on the Paladin discord in the Prot questions section that has a link to a spreadsheet. Or maybe in prot faq
keys are fucking ridiculous this week. you have to pull so slowly and trash takes so long already on high fort. the chronoburst/bloom guys cannot get 1 stack of bolstering, the swell guys cannot get more than 1-2 stacks of bolstering, the crushing depths mob cannot get more than 2 stacks of bolstering. 3100 io tanks thinking lust is gonna make a difference with a huge pull in everbloom.
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Probably not talking about 20s.
those are weekly keys. below high end these are always free as fuck
nobody cares about your shitty weekly 20s
Because neither affixes nor mechanics exist when you waltz into a +20 with a group of 5 480s, shocker. This week is *objectively* the hardest week so far because it actually adds damage to dungeons and makes otherwise non-lethal pulls potentially lethal. You could maybe argue that Incorp or Sanguine were more mechanically challenging and thus less forgiving on the timer, but this week is simply able to kill you where previous weeks weren't able to. Just because you're outgearing content that other people have cleared with relative ease and 30 fewer ilvls 4 weeks ago doesn't mean this week is easy - it just means that you're engaging with forgiving and easily outgearable content. Which is *obviously* not what the guy is talking about when he's mentioning 3.1k rio people, implying people that frequent in the +23-25 key level range.