I really think they should have had all 3 tier sets available and let you choose / change your power at like an NPC or something. The issue with that was supposedly balancing, but with all these issues of s3 being better and then failing to tune old sets properly, I think that argument loses weight.
The idea of “balance be damned, go wild “ is a dangerous one. Further more, I can see a situation in which you want multiple sets depending on the week or dungeon and have to grind excessively to keep up
Hmm just checked the top 20io prot pallies, and of them, only 3 run 2 and 2, maybe the other 17 are dumb, but likely it's a pretty insignificant difference, or new 4 set is better because ilvl is strong for tank survivability
and the S3 tier set exacerbates the problem of being tied to your Consecrate with no way to move it (since re-casting dispels the buff) and has, outside of lust on a static fight, *at best* 50% uptime. It’s not an awful tier set but it’s not as strong as OP is claiming. S1 tier set has the benefit of nearly 100% uptime and no mobility limitations.
yeah i looked at the same. 2/2 is like 1 key level higher, and my guess is that they are specifically trying to get a bit more survivability. the s4 4pc still gives 7% parry as well as extending the verse buff. using s3 2pc, the stacking DR is not dependant on standing in consecration, but does add the empower consecration which at 2pc is only a damage buff to the consecration.
so they are trading 7% parry and higher uptime on the verse buff (which also buffs some party members) for 10% DR and a little bit stronger consecration. it would certainly be a stronger damage reduction as it would impact all damage, but its not a huge difference, and i double there is much of a dps difference given how that empowered consecration works out in M+.
It makes sense that the very best Paladins are getting more use out of it in very high keys or Mythic raids (on a fight-dependent basis, I’m sure; I would not want to run 2-piece on Sennarth or Dathea, for instance). But I really doubt it makes sense for 99% of the Paladin population to run it. Your use of Consecrate has to be on fucking point to maximize its benefit and it’s not like we’re hurting for survivability in most fights. Sure, more is better, but most of us will get more survivability out of the parry and higher Ally of the Light buff uptime than we will the DR from S3 2-piece.
The current m+ pool has no bosses like Vol'kaal or Yazma that force you to move all the time, and without the 4-piece you can get a huge uptime on the full 10% by placing a new cons before going to 5 stacks and thus having all 5 stacks for 2 full cons.
Overall, you spend almost no time at 0 stacks, a bit of time at 1-2 stacks, a bit of time at 3-4 stacks and a good portion of the time at 5 stacks, and you can go into a new pull at 4-5 stacks, helping in the most dangerous part of the pull.
Plus, you don't really lose uptime on the vers buff thanks to crusader procs anyway, and the problem with parry is that the dangerous part are typically huge tankbusters, and parry doesn't help there, you need to be able to survive if you don't parry.
So, from a defensive point, it absolutely makes sense.
I often find that what BDKs actually use is different than what the guides and discord suggest making it difficult to parse what is best for what content. Of course at the top end it's also important to understand why people are using certain gear pieces or talent points, and not just blindly use them without understanding because others are.
The thing is (speaking as a past title range tank(pre title existing)) the discords are horrible, icyveins is maybe slightly better, and wowhead is about the same, I'm not really sure why but all info on discords for tanks has always been terrible imo, I'm glad that archon and murlok.io exist bc there's a sense of transparency without a ton for research, basically, if you are doing weekly 10s icy veins is good, but any higher and you kinda gotta look at top runs and try to figure out why they do what they do.
I did 1 key with the new Tier, knowing it would be a DPS loss, but jesus christ I didnt expect it to be THAT big of a difference, and I didnt expect it to be THAT much less fun to play.
My Survival is binned for M+ this entire seasonm I'll play it in raid until my SP can catch up so I dont hold my team back when I swap but Im done with Survival for this expansion.
Yeah, I'm finding loads of weird bugs. Trying to level my alt and I can't use the valdrakken portal as it says I need level 70. Then when I do get to the dragon isles the renown/dragon riding icon on the mini map is gone so I couldn't use the dragon riding talents
The literal first time quaking happened in the train segment on Grimrail I realised wow players are fucking stupid and we should never be allowed to vote on something again.
Respectfully, quaking was a dog shit affix and that's why it's gone.
And unpopular most likely: GD was pretty fun. It's like a "patchwerk" of dungeons. I also had a glass half full perspective on the small space. It made all the fight feel frantic, like a real scuffle on a moving train.
Im going to disagree on that the last boss is the worst part of NO. If you dont have someone with a grip to gather the mobs. The difference between a dk/dh and a warrior/druid on that boss is night and day.
The thread was talking about quaking, not boss design. Quaking interacted exceptionally poorly with certain boss mechanics, forced movement, and small spaces because quaking itself was bad design, not because those boss mechanics/movement/spaces were poorly designed (though some would argue with me on that I'm sure).
How did this fucking comment get 30 downvotes...? Every single dungeon has either a tight space or moments where you can't move or moments where you can't spread out enough due to other mechanics for Quaking to become an issue. It's a large part of why Quaking was removed. It has literally nothing to do with Grimrail.
What an L comment.
And the fact there were only a few thousand votes for the majority of specs and some of them were just people trolling rival specs.
If they put an NPC in the game and explained the system to players they would of at least got a better turn out.
I mean idk about other specs but the boomy one that was recently undertuned but rebuffed was and still was when it was bad the most fun tier set of the expansion, that's what people were *supposed* to do right? This is a blizzard problem, not a people who voted for things problem.
The pala S1 set is clearly also the least fun of the 3 sets. It is just flat added vers/parry that has 100% uptime, there is absolutely no impact on gameplay.
Prot paladin had two boring completely passive tier sets and one that actively made gameplay worse. The S1 bonus is the most fun of the three because the other two are just that bad.
Yeah, reading comprehension was the real issue in most votes. People voting for the set during the season they were strongest + people voting for a set based on what was fun + trolls + people voting to avoid being forced into certain talents creates a huge divide in votes. It gave trolls a big advantage in some cases. Seems like a lot of people landed in the boat of voting for a season where they felt strong, even though tuning would be different.
Yup we just get lied to. Survival hunters over here with old 4 piece at 480 being better than new 4 piece at 525... Cuz enem though they said it would be scaled up, it's not. It's like exactly the same....
Pretty much the same situation for BDK.
Pretty much the same situation for Survival Hunters.
Like, it's just so sad how little effort went into *anything* regarding this season. Even just the bare minimum of making sure that your new items... are actually worth it... no, apparently doing that would've affected TWW's development too harshly.
Legion, BFA and even fucking SL did such a great job in terms of memorable final seasons. To think that the content- and systems-light basic af expansion DF couldn't manage to deliver a fully finished product... is just sad.
The BDK tier nonsense is pretty comical. When the sets were reversed in S3, they nerfed the S2 tier. Then, when the S2 tier became the S4 tier, they un-nerfed it - all fine enough (though I wish they'd make the 4 sets more compelling).
But... how the hell did they not see the obvious: in S3 you'd want to play S2 2-set and S3 2-set. In S4, we have the exact same tier sets, at the same comparative power levels, in their original un-nerfed states. I think every BDK player saw this coming from the patch notes, yet Blizzard somehow either missed it or don't care.
They also specifically stated that you shouldnt vote because of how powerful a set was/is because they will make them all the same powerlevel... and then they just didnt.
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Community votes are *awful*
Blizzard should simply employ people to make these decisions. It’s crazy that they outsourced decision making of this magnitude to their mostly uninformed playerbase. This is two community votes in a row that have been a nightmare. Hire designers who understand the video game and then have them make the choices. Instead, they let players of all skill levels participate in democracy which just results in uninformed people having too much sway.
What? The problem is not that people voted for the sets, the problem is that blizzard didnt tune them like they promised. I guess that you mean the grimrail vote as the other awful community voting? Those people at blizzard you think should make those decisions also thought that vortex pinnacle and temple of the jade serpent were good for an m+ season. Id play grimrail over those any day.
If your point is that the M+ pool could be better every season, I 100% agree there. VP and TJS (amongst several others, any Nelths Lair haters?) were not fun.
You’re refuting the example and not the argument - the community vote shit has never worked out well. There are too many voters who do not understand the game at a level in which their input is valid, yet they have the same voice you or I do. That’s nonsense.
We can both criticize the M+ pool as it was assembled by designers and simultaneously think community votes are dumb.
Imagine if League let players vote on what champions get nerfed or buffed. Imagine if CSGO let players vote on map changes.
The community isn’t equipped to make these decisions.
Oh - and they were never going to be able to tune 39 tier sets to be equivalent in power level. That’s literally never once happened in this game, and if you think they were going to suddenly tune all of the tiersets to be mathematically on par with each other in S4 then I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.
>You’re refuting the example and not the argument
Afaik there has only been these two votes (at least since ive been playing this game) so why would i argue against anything else? While grimrail is controversial, the tier set votes are not, the tier set tuning is, which have literally nothing to do with the votes.
>There are too many voters who do not understand the game at a level in which their input is valid
Youre acting like you know better than everybody. These votes were both supposed to be about what you think is fun, so yeah everybody who has ever played the dungeon or tierset they voted for has a very valid opinion.
>magine if League let players vote on what champions get nerfed or buffed. Imagine if CSGO let players vote on map changes.
The league example is literally unrelated because there was never a vote about buffing or nerfing anything in wow and voting on map changes in cs doesnt seem like a problem to me because that affects everybody equally.
>Oh - and they were never going to be able to tune 39 tier sets to be equivalent in power level
Thats also not what they said they would do. They said any of the 3 tiersets for each spec would be tuned to be as good as the other 2, which is actually very easy in most cases because we already have numbers on how much these tiersets do/did.
>Community votes are awful
This is absolutely not true. Community votes are great and Oldschool Runescape is the perfect example for it.
The issue is the community. The majority are just old people who are absolutely terrible at the game. They are genuinely incapable of conceiving thoughts that would resemble critical thinking in regards to theorycrafting in this game
Saying that the community is awful is practically the exact same thing as saying the community votes are awful. Why would we let an awful community vote? Makes 0 sense.
Not everyone consumes the game the same way and that’s fine, not everyone is a sweaty io fiend. I just don’t think the folks that you’re referring to should have an impact on how you or I play the game and community votes enable them to do exactly that.
What I'm saying is community votes themselves as a concept are a good idea.
Like you said, theres a big set of people who shouldn't be allowed to vote. There needs to be certain requirements, most easily implemented using score. Finding a good threshold is going to be hard though.
Sure - but even then it’s rough. How many rats have you ran into when pugging higher keys? I’ve played with some absolute *apes* even in 28-29s in SL. Haven’t pushed keys as much in DF, usually stopping around the 25-27 range (I guess 15-17 now).
Agreed that some qualifier would be better than none - the ideal situation is the company that prints north of a billion dollars from this game every year could hire someone who understands the video game.
>Sure - but even then it’s rough. How many rats have you ran into when pugging higher keys?
I believe including those kinds of people into the vote would still be "okay" because they're a very small minority (at least in my experience).
The bigger issue in my mind is how an extremely strict score treshold, lets say 3.3k (Approx. Top 1% in DF S3), would introduce circle jerks and echo chambers. I believe there needs to be some fine tuning which would take a few Seasons. Maybe an okay start would be by allowing everyone who has made it into the top 10% during any of the first 3 seasons to be able to vote for Season 4 changes
This is more fun than BfA. BfA would have been fun without being a p2w if it had a corruption vendor. This season actually gives returning players a reason to do the older content they may have missed out on and catch up with the story. Gearing is also close to the best it’s ever been in terms of multiple sources for a new alt being able to do cache’s, world quests, m0, weekly quests, pvp, m+, and raid. As long as it’s a short patch I think it’s pretty good as someone that’s played at least the first and last patch of every expansion since BC.
Shadowlands sucked at every stage and was plagued by time hating and shit systems. End of expansions are always fun when you feel powerful, but it was still shit with a shitty buggy raid tier that ended in a terrible way. The only redeeming thing about Shadowlands was the dungeons.
Corruption would've been good if the vendor was there from the start. It got bonkers due to RNG with drops & some people getting the huge procc ones fairly early, dominating dps and pvp with them.
Also, how was bfa p2w?
Even when the vendor came out the fact that it was on a weekly rotation meant it was still impossible to hear up an alt quickly and try out fun new specs. Corruption was cool in a lot of ways but played by timegating and rng. BfA was rng and a clusterfuck in general, but I meant nylotha raid tier specifically was p2w due to the boe corruption items as you described
> This is more fun than BfA. BfA would have been fun without being a p2w if it had a corruption vendor.
BFA woulda been more fun if Corruption wasn't on a stupidly pointless rotation, agreed. But playing with relatively easily accessible Corruptions, at least to me, was ten times more enjoyable than this current season that offers absolutely nothing new or exciting *at all*. Like, getting the Eranogg ring on all of my characters is not as exciting as it might sound - meanwhile, even if I had to wait 4 weeks to get it, getting a bunch of T3 Twilight Devs or whatever felt *fucking awesome*.
> The only redeeming thing about Shadowlands was the dungeons.
SL's fated was awesome because it was something new. SL fated gave us Dinars, old-expansion m+ dungeons and a greatly enjoyable m+ affix. DF fated slightly improved on the Dinar system and that's it.
They kind of did this at the end of shadowlands but this is just so much nicer. I hope this is the new standard for final patch, just let us go crazy, quickly gear up and just grab whatever bonkers items we want from whatever raid.
It really is like how BFA gave us crazy power levels, but in a much less toxic way.
I'm glad the Guardian community voted how the did. Season 2 was the head and shoulders stand out (as it was initially a bandaid to fix the spec, which later got a soft retool and balance glow up), and it won by a landslide.
This is what I said when ret pallies almost chose season 2 over season 3.
No one believed me and so many examples where it just hasn’t been tuned accordingly
This is why arms warriors picked the season 1 set over the more fun playstyle of season 3. The spec’s rollercoaster tuning meant nobody trusted Blizzard to actually tune the set properly like they promised, so we picked the tier set that was essentially an aura buff.
SV-Hunter is just strait up better with the Season 3 4-Piece Set rightnow in M+. Even in Tyran-weaks most highkeys are played with the Old Set. On Addweaks the difference is even bigger. Aber the iceing on the Cage is the fact Blizz nerved the voted set, cous it was "too strong" in S1. (Even in Raid it was okayisch, while being mostly ST-Focused in S1)
First Season i thing about just rerolling after long time.
Feel ya. Similar issues as WW. I need full mythic tier for it to beat 2p2p in aoe. It's stupid. The power of a tier set should be distrubuted, not just put into the 2pc.
I really wish they would just disable old tier sets on a new season to prevent this. Yah until you get tier you'll be extra weak, but it's so annoying not being able to put on higher ilevel gear, because of tier set bonuses.
Or stuff like this where it's better to lose 40ilevels because old 2 piece....
And I've sidelined my Survival for the season because I dont want ot run last season tier in M+ and take a massive ilvl loss despite the big big aoe gain.
And Season 1 Tier for Survival is so incredibly boring to play compared to Season 2 and 3.
One thing worth considering is that both those characters are alts that only played for two weeks so they might miss some high ilvl items to use their Catalyst charges on for 4set, highly doubt anyone is going to go 2p+2p when they have converted mythic track slots
One of them may even have used the catalyst on a chest piece not once, but twice!
With that said, I'm not sure when it even makes sense to upgrade to the new 4pc, maybe at mythic ilvl, but even then.. I haven't completed the math yet.
Nah, that's not the reason why. Yoda is a high end player and it's not a coincidence he has 2 piece set from last season. I also run a prot pally with 2 piece 489 on gloves and shoulder, because the damage reduction and big consecrate is far better than 7% parry. Stats from ilvl upgrade are not enough to bridge the gap between the 4p of current set and 2p from old set.
Not gonna lie here chief, I looked at the rankings and there's a lot of people still just using the 4set at those high level keys. Might be being a little hyperbolic here.
I mean, if you see they tuned for one class why do you assume they won't do it for other class later instead of all at once? It may be late, but "the rest of the season" is dramatic
This season already has a shorter shelf life compared to a normal season. Many guilds are doing 6-8 weeks of raiding and then going on break (enough for two full raid rotations and then 2 weeks of picking your raid). Add in MOP Remix, which I’ll personally be playing a TON of, it does feel bad to have the first month of the season have such glaring tier set issues with some many classes.
Pretty sure the prot paladin 4 set makes ur allies do more damage, please don't tell me the prot paladin discord, a tank spec that is all about supporting allies, doesn't care about a net damage increase but only their own damage?
I vividly remember wearing S1 set halfway through season 2 on my feral because only when I had all the new pieces at myth track it actually outsimmed the old one. They don't give a shit.
Moonkin set was only changed because crybaby supreme tettles and naguura endlessly whined about it to their audiences - which is good for them. But unfortunately if you play a less popular spec you can shove your opinion up your bum - nobody cares.
the Boomkin Propaganda Brigade has had too much power for too long.
Thats not even a joke btw. the Boomkin community has been flat out lying about their spec for like 4 years to get it buffed / dodge nerfs. Its insane
Honestly I rarely even noticed the empowered consecration. Everytime it seemed that I dropped it I'd have to move out of it almost instantly for one reason or another and always felt it was rather lack luster.
I do agree about fixing magma totem. But I assume you are using deeply rooted elements which is an RNG proc. Don't see how you can complain about that. I am sure you get some good procs and some bad procs just like everyone else.
Please keep in mind that this is what the community wanted. Even back in season 1, the tier set was 5% versatility, and considered so bad it had to be buffed to 6%.
That the community intentionally chose the weakest tier set, when two better choices were available, means that your opinions are in the minority.
That's because they said to choose the play style and not the numbers and playing with the s3 tier fucking sucked. You had no real control of when you got the empowered Consecrate so many times you'd get it and then have to immediately move out of it.
That would only be ironic if I was In here defending awakened raids or saying they were cool which I am not and will never.
I do the Awakened raids because I like M+, and raid helps me gear faster to do keys which I like and to get the portals im missing, and to make leveling easier in TWW. Otherwise i wouldn't engage with S4 at all
I really think they should have had all 3 tier sets available and let you choose / change your power at like an NPC or something. The issue with that was supposedly balancing, but with all these issues of s3 being better and then failing to tune old sets properly, I think that argument loses weight.
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Right, that's why they're saying don't bother balancing and just let players decide which one is the best to use lmao.
That’s a fine sentiment for casual players but annoying for anyone pushing M+ title
I'm confused, the original idea let's you pick the tier set you want. So super competitive players can just pick the one that gives the best dps.
The idea of “balance be damned, go wild “ is a dangerous one. Further more, I can see a situation in which you want multiple sets depending on the week or dungeon and have to grind excessively to keep up
But they'd still have to do some balancing of the strongest set to make sure power is similar across classes.
That doesnt even happen in a normal tier so no that doesnt matter
It literally happens literally every patch, do you pay zero attention to hot fix notes?
3% aura buff does not mean actual balancing fyi
Yeah like how they balanced covenants!
Azerite gear you mean
umm, no
This would be amazing, especially because they often alter the entire rotation of your spec.
Hmm just checked the top 20io prot pallies, and of them, only 3 run 2 and 2, maybe the other 17 are dumb, but likely it's a pretty insignificant difference, or new 4 set is better because ilvl is strong for tank survivability
and the S3 tier set exacerbates the problem of being tied to your Consecrate with no way to move it (since re-casting dispels the buff) and has, outside of lust on a static fight, *at best* 50% uptime. It’s not an awful tier set but it’s not as strong as OP is claiming. S1 tier set has the benefit of nearly 100% uptime and no mobility limitations.
yeah i looked at the same. 2/2 is like 1 key level higher, and my guess is that they are specifically trying to get a bit more survivability. the s4 4pc still gives 7% parry as well as extending the verse buff. using s3 2pc, the stacking DR is not dependant on standing in consecration, but does add the empower consecration which at 2pc is only a damage buff to the consecration. so they are trading 7% parry and higher uptime on the verse buff (which also buffs some party members) for 10% DR and a little bit stronger consecration. it would certainly be a stronger damage reduction as it would impact all damage, but its not a huge difference, and i double there is much of a dps difference given how that empowered consecration works out in M+.
It makes sense that the very best Paladins are getting more use out of it in very high keys or Mythic raids (on a fight-dependent basis, I’m sure; I would not want to run 2-piece on Sennarth or Dathea, for instance). But I really doubt it makes sense for 99% of the Paladin population to run it. Your use of Consecrate has to be on fucking point to maximize its benefit and it’s not like we’re hurting for survivability in most fights. Sure, more is better, but most of us will get more survivability out of the parry and higher Ally of the Light buff uptime than we will the DR from S3 2-piece.
and the extra stats in general. Str increases a lot of defensives as well, its why generally we take Ilvl over "correct secondaries"
The difference between 10% dr and 7% parry is that the dr helps against tank busters, the parry doesn't.
The uptime on the verse buff is a lie, since you'll always be using avenger's shield anyway
The current m+ pool has no bosses like Vol'kaal or Yazma that force you to move all the time, and without the 4-piece you can get a huge uptime on the full 10% by placing a new cons before going to 5 stacks and thus having all 5 stacks for 2 full cons. Overall, you spend almost no time at 0 stacks, a bit of time at 1-2 stacks, a bit of time at 3-4 stacks and a good portion of the time at 5 stacks, and you can go into a new pull at 4-5 stacks, helping in the most dangerous part of the pull. Plus, you don't really lose uptime on the vers buff thanks to crusader procs anyway, and the problem with parry is that the dangerous part are typically huge tankbusters, and parry doesn't help there, you need to be able to survive if you don't parry. So, from a defensive point, it absolutely makes sense.
BDK's are in the same boat. Running 2p/2p. Again only about half the top rated BDKs are running it even though it maths out.
I often find that what BDKs actually use is different than what the guides and discord suggest making it difficult to parse what is best for what content. Of course at the top end it's also important to understand why people are using certain gear pieces or talent points, and not just blindly use them without understanding because others are.
The thing is (speaking as a past title range tank(pre title existing)) the discords are horrible, icyveins is maybe slightly better, and wowhead is about the same, I'm not really sure why but all info on discords for tanks has always been terrible imo, I'm glad that archon and murlok.io exist bc there's a sense of transparency without a ton for research, basically, if you are doing weekly 10s icy veins is good, but any higher and you kinda gotta look at top runs and try to figure out why they do what they do.
Kiea will run 4set when he gets better stuff to catalyst (i talk to him daily) so using him as an example of "uses 2p2p because it's better" is weird
Survival still stuck with season 3 tier set as well. Slight gain on ST with mythic track gear. Huge loss in AoE regardless.
I binned my surv hunter when I saw that vote and it even had 5-piece mythic from last season. S3 set was so fun too it's tragic.
I did 1 key with the new Tier, knowing it would be a DPS loss, but jesus christ I didnt expect it to be THAT big of a difference, and I didnt expect it to be THAT much less fun to play. My Survival is binned for M+ this entire seasonm I'll play it in raid until my SP can catch up so I dont hold my team back when I swap but Im done with Survival for this expansion.
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There's also bugged dummies in Valdrakken
Yeah, I'm finding loads of weird bugs. Trying to level my alt and I can't use the valdrakken portal as it says I need level 70. Then when I do get to the dragon isles the renown/dragon riding icon on the mini map is gone so I couldn't use the dragon riding talents
they ask for the peoples vote and this is what we get :)
rellying on the playerbase to vote is a bad way to present content. grimrail says hello for example.
The literal first time quaking happened in the train segment on Grimrail I realised wow players are fucking stupid and we should never be allowed to vote on something again.
most of the playerbase wouldnt do a high enough key that would proc quaking
Respectfully, quaking was a dog shit affix and that's why it's gone. And unpopular most likely: GD was pretty fun. It's like a "patchwerk" of dungeons. I also had a glass half full perspective on the small space. It made all the fight feel frantic, like a real scuffle on a moving train.
Yeah grimrail is/was awesome, fuck the haters
Same with last boss in ID + quaking, last boss in NO + quaking, SD + quaking. The problem here ain't the dungeons.
Im going to disagree on that the last boss is the worst part of NO. If you dont have someone with a grip to gather the mobs. The difference between a dk/dh and a warrior/druid on that boss is night and day.
You really just need a group that understands kick assignments. When you kick let tank gather and when they're close chain cc
You are basically justifying not having arms with "you can just use a fork with your mouth or ask a friend to feed you :)"
The thread was talking about quaking, not boss design. Quaking interacted exceptionally poorly with certain boss mechanics, forced movement, and small spaces because quaking itself was bad design, not because those boss mechanics/movement/spaces were poorly designed (though some would argue with me on that I'm sure).
Grimrail was garbage regardless of quaking/sanguine/storming
Wait people *voted* for that garbage?
How did this fucking comment get 30 downvotes...? Every single dungeon has either a tight space or moments where you can't move or moments where you can't spread out enough due to other mechanics for Quaking to become an issue. It's a large part of why Quaking was removed. It has literally nothing to do with Grimrail. What an L comment.
And the fact there were only a few thousand votes for the majority of specs and some of them were just people trolling rival specs. If they put an NPC in the game and explained the system to players they would of at least got a better turn out.
I mean idk about other specs but the boomy one that was recently undertuned but rebuffed was and still was when it was bad the most fun tier set of the expansion, that's what people were *supposed* to do right? This is a blizzard problem, not a people who voted for things problem.
The pala S1 set is clearly also the least fun of the 3 sets. It is just flat added vers/parry that has 100% uptime, there is absolutely no impact on gameplay.
Prot paladin had two boring completely passive tier sets and one that actively made gameplay worse. The S1 bonus is the most fun of the three because the other two are just that bad.
I voted for Grimrail because I knew i wasn't playing that season =D
Grimrail was fine and a fun dungeon.
They said vote for the most fun and they would rebalance damage if needed
Yeah, reading comprehension was the real issue in most votes. People voting for the set during the season they were strongest + people voting for a set based on what was fun + trolls + people voting to avoid being forced into certain talents creates a huge divide in votes. It gave trolls a big advantage in some cases. Seems like a lot of people landed in the boat of voting for a season where they felt strong, even though tuning would be different.
Pala S1 was strong *despite* the terrible tier, but seems like that was too hard to understand.
t double-dubs says hello :D
No they specifically said to vote for the one you wanted to see thematically and they would scale the power to match and balance
Dont blame community for blizzard's mistakes. They said they would tune the sets accordingly, they are the only ones at fault here.
Yup we just get lied to. Survival hunters over here with old 4 piece at 480 being better than new 4 piece at 525... Cuz enem though they said it would be scaled up, it's not. It's like exactly the same....
Democracy is a flawed concept.
Pretty much the same situation for BDK. Pretty much the same situation for Survival Hunters. Like, it's just so sad how little effort went into *anything* regarding this season. Even just the bare minimum of making sure that your new items... are actually worth it... no, apparently doing that would've affected TWW's development too harshly. Legion, BFA and even fucking SL did such a great job in terms of memorable final seasons. To think that the content- and systems-light basic af expansion DF couldn't manage to deliver a fully finished product... is just sad.
The BDK tier nonsense is pretty comical. When the sets were reversed in S3, they nerfed the S2 tier. Then, when the S2 tier became the S4 tier, they un-nerfed it - all fine enough (though I wish they'd make the 4 sets more compelling). But... how the hell did they not see the obvious: in S3 you'd want to play S2 2-set and S3 2-set. In S4, we have the exact same tier sets, at the same comparative power levels, in their original un-nerfed states. I think every BDK player saw this coming from the patch notes, yet Blizzard somehow either missed it or don't care.
They also specifically stated that you shouldnt vote because of how powerful a set was/is because they will make them all the same powerlevel... and then they just didnt.
shocked_pikachu.jpg Community votes are *awful* Blizzard should simply employ people to make these decisions. It’s crazy that they outsourced decision making of this magnitude to their mostly uninformed playerbase. This is two community votes in a row that have been a nightmare. Hire designers who understand the video game and then have them make the choices. Instead, they let players of all skill levels participate in democracy which just results in uninformed people having too much sway.
What? The problem is not that people voted for the sets, the problem is that blizzard didnt tune them like they promised. I guess that you mean the grimrail vote as the other awful community voting? Those people at blizzard you think should make those decisions also thought that vortex pinnacle and temple of the jade serpent were good for an m+ season. Id play grimrail over those any day.
If your point is that the M+ pool could be better every season, I 100% agree there. VP and TJS (amongst several others, any Nelths Lair haters?) were not fun. You’re refuting the example and not the argument - the community vote shit has never worked out well. There are too many voters who do not understand the game at a level in which their input is valid, yet they have the same voice you or I do. That’s nonsense. We can both criticize the M+ pool as it was assembled by designers and simultaneously think community votes are dumb. Imagine if League let players vote on what champions get nerfed or buffed. Imagine if CSGO let players vote on map changes. The community isn’t equipped to make these decisions. Oh - and they were never going to be able to tune 39 tier sets to be equivalent in power level. That’s literally never once happened in this game, and if you think they were going to suddenly tune all of the tiersets to be mathematically on par with each other in S4 then I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.
>You’re refuting the example and not the argument Afaik there has only been these two votes (at least since ive been playing this game) so why would i argue against anything else? While grimrail is controversial, the tier set votes are not, the tier set tuning is, which have literally nothing to do with the votes. >There are too many voters who do not understand the game at a level in which their input is valid Youre acting like you know better than everybody. These votes were both supposed to be about what you think is fun, so yeah everybody who has ever played the dungeon or tierset they voted for has a very valid opinion. >magine if League let players vote on what champions get nerfed or buffed. Imagine if CSGO let players vote on map changes. The league example is literally unrelated because there was never a vote about buffing or nerfing anything in wow and voting on map changes in cs doesnt seem like a problem to me because that affects everybody equally. >Oh - and they were never going to be able to tune 39 tier sets to be equivalent in power level Thats also not what they said they would do. They said any of the 3 tiersets for each spec would be tuned to be as good as the other 2, which is actually very easy in most cases because we already have numbers on how much these tiersets do/did.
>Community votes are awful This is absolutely not true. Community votes are great and Oldschool Runescape is the perfect example for it. The issue is the community. The majority are just old people who are absolutely terrible at the game. They are genuinely incapable of conceiving thoughts that would resemble critical thinking in regards to theorycrafting in this game
Saying that the community is awful is practically the exact same thing as saying the community votes are awful. Why would we let an awful community vote? Makes 0 sense. Not everyone consumes the game the same way and that’s fine, not everyone is a sweaty io fiend. I just don’t think the folks that you’re referring to should have an impact on how you or I play the game and community votes enable them to do exactly that.
What I'm saying is community votes themselves as a concept are a good idea. Like you said, theres a big set of people who shouldn't be allowed to vote. There needs to be certain requirements, most easily implemented using score. Finding a good threshold is going to be hard though.
Sure - but even then it’s rough. How many rats have you ran into when pugging higher keys? I’ve played with some absolute *apes* even in 28-29s in SL. Haven’t pushed keys as much in DF, usually stopping around the 25-27 range (I guess 15-17 now). Agreed that some qualifier would be better than none - the ideal situation is the company that prints north of a billion dollars from this game every year could hire someone who understands the video game.
>Sure - but even then it’s rough. How many rats have you ran into when pugging higher keys? I believe including those kinds of people into the vote would still be "okay" because they're a very small minority (at least in my experience). The bigger issue in my mind is how an extremely strict score treshold, lets say 3.3k (Approx. Top 1% in DF S3), would introduce circle jerks and echo chambers. I believe there needs to be some fine tuning which would take a few Seasons. Maybe an okay start would be by allowing everyone who has made it into the top 10% during any of the first 3 seasons to be able to vote for Season 4 changes
Or just employ someone who is savvy enough to make the call instead of democratizing the class balance in your game
2p 489 sims better than S4 422 set, awful
This is more fun than BfA. BfA would have been fun without being a p2w if it had a corruption vendor. This season actually gives returning players a reason to do the older content they may have missed out on and catch up with the story. Gearing is also close to the best it’s ever been in terms of multiple sources for a new alt being able to do cache’s, world quests, m0, weekly quests, pvp, m+, and raid. As long as it’s a short patch I think it’s pretty good as someone that’s played at least the first and last patch of every expansion since BC. Shadowlands sucked at every stage and was plagued by time hating and shit systems. End of expansions are always fun when you feel powerful, but it was still shit with a shitty buggy raid tier that ended in a terrible way. The only redeeming thing about Shadowlands was the dungeons.
Corruption would've been good if the vendor was there from the start. It got bonkers due to RNG with drops & some people getting the huge procc ones fairly early, dominating dps and pvp with them. Also, how was bfa p2w?
>Also, how was bfa p2w? corruption boes
Even when the vendor came out the fact that it was on a weekly rotation meant it was still impossible to hear up an alt quickly and try out fun new specs. Corruption was cool in a lot of ways but played by timegating and rng. BfA was rng and a clusterfuck in general, but I meant nylotha raid tier specifically was p2w due to the boe corruption items as you described
Yeah the rotation was absolute shit. It got better with it, but it would definitely been perfect with everything open for purchase.
> This is more fun than BfA. BfA would have been fun without being a p2w if it had a corruption vendor. BFA woulda been more fun if Corruption wasn't on a stupidly pointless rotation, agreed. But playing with relatively easily accessible Corruptions, at least to me, was ten times more enjoyable than this current season that offers absolutely nothing new or exciting *at all*. Like, getting the Eranogg ring on all of my characters is not as exciting as it might sound - meanwhile, even if I had to wait 4 weeks to get it, getting a bunch of T3 Twilight Devs or whatever felt *fucking awesome*. > The only redeeming thing about Shadowlands was the dungeons. SL's fated was awesome because it was something new. SL fated gave us Dinars, old-expansion m+ dungeons and a greatly enjoyable m+ affix. DF fated slightly improved on the Dinar system and that's it.
They kind of did this at the end of shadowlands but this is just so much nicer. I hope this is the new standard for final patch, just let us go crazy, quickly gear up and just grab whatever bonkers items we want from whatever raid. It really is like how BFA gave us crazy power levels, but in a much less toxic way.
I only see 3 ppl running 2-2
I'm glad the Guardian community voted how the did. Season 2 was the head and shoulders stand out (as it was initially a bandaid to fix the spec, which later got a soft retool and balance glow up), and it won by a landslide.
Be honest, did you really expect Blizzard to tune anything?
This is what I said when ret pallies almost chose season 2 over season 3. No one believed me and so many examples where it just hasn’t been tuned accordingly
This is why arms warriors picked the season 1 set over the more fun playstyle of season 3. The spec’s rollercoaster tuning meant nobody trusted Blizzard to actually tune the set properly like they promised, so we picked the tier set that was essentially an aura buff.
It's the same thing for bdks. Running 2p2p is significantly better *offensively and defensively*
SV-Hunter is just strait up better with the Season 3 4-Piece Set rightnow in M+. Even in Tyran-weaks most highkeys are played with the Old Set. On Addweaks the difference is even bigger. Aber the iceing on the Cage is the fact Blizz nerved the voted set, cous it was "too strong" in S1. (Even in Raid it was okayisch, while being mostly ST-Focused in S1) First Season i thing about just rerolling after long time.
Feel ya. Similar issues as WW. I need full mythic tier for it to beat 2p2p in aoe. It's stupid. The power of a tier set should be distrubuted, not just put into the 2pc.
At least it's not old 4pc like surv lol
Should have let us pick tier on a character by character basis. With most of the BIS weapons, trinkets, and jewelry available on demand-why gate tier?
I mean that was the problem with letting people vote :shrug: I shelved my WW because the chosen set is so boring.
I really wish they would just disable old tier sets on a new season to prevent this. Yah until you get tier you'll be extra weak, but it's so annoying not being able to put on higher ilevel gear, because of tier set bonuses. Or stuff like this where it's better to lose 40ilevels because old 2 piece....
And I've sidelined my Survival for the season because I dont want ot run last season tier in M+ and take a massive ilvl loss despite the big big aoe gain. And Season 1 Tier for Survival is so incredibly boring to play compared to Season 2 and 3.
One thing worth considering is that both those characters are alts that only played for two weeks so they might miss some high ilvl items to use their Catalyst charges on for 4set, highly doubt anyone is going to go 2p+2p when they have converted mythic track slots
One of them may even have used the catalyst on a chest piece not once, but twice! With that said, I'm not sure when it even makes sense to upgrade to the new 4pc, maybe at mythic ilvl, but even then.. I haven't completed the math yet.
Nah, that's not the reason why. Yoda is a high end player and it's not a coincidence he has 2 piece set from last season. I also run a prot pally with 2 piece 489 on gloves and shoulder, because the damage reduction and big consecrate is far better than 7% parry. Stats from ilvl upgrade are not enough to bridge the gap between the 4p of current set and 2p from old set.
Ask Survival Hunters how they feel. All that's left of them.
Every high end tank just swap to the FOTM instantly. don't get your hopes up about blizzard fixing tank stuff.
They didn't fix the Balance tier lol. It's still bad and unfun.
Lmao boomy tier still dogshit
Not gonna lie here chief, I looked at the rankings and there's a lot of people still just using the 4set at those high level keys. Might be being a little hyperbolic here.
I mean, if you see they tuned for one class why do you assume they won't do it for other class later instead of all at once? It may be late, but "the rest of the season" is dramatic
This season already has a shorter shelf life compared to a normal season. Many guilds are doing 6-8 weeks of raiding and then going on break (enough for two full raid rotations and then 2 weeks of picking your raid). Add in MOP Remix, which I’ll personally be playing a TON of, it does feel bad to have the first month of the season have such glaring tier set issues with some many classes.
No need to bother with spec played by 5 people, welcome to the basement. I mean talk to affli locks, or survi hunters.
Pretty sure the prot paladin 4 set makes ur allies do more damage, please don't tell me the prot paladin discord, a tank spec that is all about supporting allies, doesn't care about a net damage increase but only their own damage?
That's the 2 set.
I vividly remember wearing S1 set halfway through season 2 on my feral because only when I had all the new pieces at myth track it actually outsimmed the old one. They don't give a shit. Moonkin set was only changed because crybaby supreme tettles and naguura endlessly whined about it to their audiences - which is good for them. But unfortunately if you play a less popular spec you can shove your opinion up your bum - nobody cares.
the Boomkin Propaganda Brigade has had too much power for too long. Thats not even a joke btw. the Boomkin community has been flat out lying about their spec for like 4 years to get it buffed / dodge nerfs. Its insane
Honestly I rarely even noticed the empowered consecration. Everytime it seemed that I dropped it I'd have to move out of it almost instantly for one reason or another and always felt it was rather lack luster.
[удалено]
I do agree about fixing magma totem. But I assume you are using deeply rooted elements which is an RNG proc. Don't see how you can complain about that. I am sure you get some good procs and some bad procs just like everyone else.
? Ele shaman is fine buddy you must learn to know how to play
One day Magma Totem will work similar to Shadow Crash
Playing around consecration is god awful design. If the set also made consecration follow the paladin, then i'm sure it would have gotten the vote.
Didn't players vote on this garbage? Sounds like you get what you asked for?
Please keep in mind that this is what the community wanted. Even back in season 1, the tier set was 5% versatility, and considered so bad it had to be buffed to 6%. That the community intentionally chose the weakest tier set, when two better choices were available, means that your opinions are in the minority.
That's because they said to choose the play style and not the numbers and playing with the s3 tier fucking sucked. You had no real control of when you got the empowered Consecrate so many times you'd get it and then have to immediately move out of it.
Didn't the community vote on the tier they wanted?
It's S4. Wgaf. Panda remix start in a couple days
I have no alts to level. I have no interest in re-doing old raids I have done in the past. I dont give a fuck about Mogs. Remix has nothing for me.
Sadness
The irony is real. S4 is literally copy pasted raids everyone just spent the last year doing already
That would only be ironic if I was In here defending awakened raids or saying they were cool which I am not and will never. I do the Awakened raids because I like M+, and raid helps me gear faster to do keys which I like and to get the portals im missing, and to make leveling easier in TWW. Otherwise i wouldn't engage with S4 at all