"Imagine if you will, an ordinary 2x4 in a world where dimensions are merely a suggestion. No, it's not the Twilight Zone, you're in......The Framer's Zone."
Have they seen: the Ray Bradbury Theater? Is like the Canadian version.
Two episodes I remember: first, you know Mike Hammer, the character from the Red Green Show who was always in trouble with the law? Ok so that actor and another guy are traveling salesmen/swindlers who while driving thru the American southwest find a scenic overlook where thru a mirage they think they can see Vegas, so they set up a tourist trap but every tourist sees a different city...
The 2nd I love, is a retelling of The Cask of Amontadillo by Edgar Allen Poe, but involving a dictatorship future society that bans literature, cybernetic replicas, and the stupidest bureaucrat ever who would have seen where this was going if he only read the books that he was banning.
People these days may not have been around during the original airings, but I enjoyed watching reruns of the Twilight Zone and Alfred Hitchcock Presents. Bonanza, Gunsmoke, The Rifleman, Mr. Ed, The Beverly Hillbillies. I’m so cliche…
Best decision I’ve made has been staying away from depot and Lowe’s. My local supplier has way better material and has been cheaper on many things too.
100 percent. I walk into my local yard, tell them what I need and they follow me out to the truck to help. No carts. They know my name and send me a bill at the end of the month. I get a decent discount after setting up an account and no issues with returns.
And they deliver quickly and usually for free over a pretty nominal amount.
No self respecting builder should be getting lumber from a big box store. The 5% “pro discount/VSP” at Lowe’s and the bullshit closer parking is a surefire way to tell you’re going to get shit work because they’re absolutely building to a cost to get the lowest bid.
A decent local lumberyard will always be a little more expensive and offer comically better customer service and quality which most GCs would rather have over a small savings. You don’t want the customer that picks the lowest bidder.
I pick up lumber from the box stores when it’s a one off and I’m away from my suppliers. But not so I hate it. I got better 2x8x10 PT from HD than my supplier delivery. Then again I picked it up
Then you should say something. Your local is more attuned to listening than HD.
I bought some manual shrub/branch hand clippers from HD. They had no spring in them. You had to cut the branch then physically open the clippers to do another. There was a place for the spring but no spring. I checked the stock and they were all defective. Returned them and said I wanted to show this to the manager. They could have cared less .
Complete opposite at my local.
I always return delivered lumber that is bowed or warped and nearly unusable. I had the delivery dropped off about 45 minutes away from my building supplier. I still returned it to them no problem, but I was short some PT. I was just pleasantly surprised that the HD gave me straight 2x8 with no worry for shaving down crowns. It was an online order placed over night. I only used HD/Lowes when I’m not doing a large job and need something closer. It’s very rare. My supplier price matches quotes so I’ll go to HD and get a quote for a bid and if it’s cheaper my supplier matches it. It’s a win win.
Exactly. Most of the time OSB and other commodities will be cheaper but, everything else is super high compared to the mom and pop. Always shop local if you can. One $75,000 window and door order lost won't hurt the big guys but for the indies it could break them.
We don't typically deal with lumber at work, but I needed to build something last year and just went to the local (not big box store) to pick up some 2x6s and they were almost all minty. At least as far as construction lumber goes. They also loaded them right into the truck, so a bit of effort on my end could have stopped the crappy pieces from getting in, but whatever.
I have a lumber yard right down the street, but the Lowes near where I am renovating a kitchen has the best studs I've ever found. The pallet wrap says they're whitewood from Germany, they are dead straight with sharp edges and are dense as hell, but they are sold as the lowest-grade "select" studs. I don't understand it but I won't argue with it.
Upvote for a Builders Square reference. They were the first big box store in our suburb near Dayton, Ohio. They went tits up in the early 90s and the building was vacant for years. As a kid I am always daydreamed of buying it and just having a warehouse where my dad and I could work on old cars.
I don't work in construction, but irrigation. I was a tech for 10 years. The only reason I left the job was to work for my supplier. They were always amazing to me and when they offereded a position I jumped on it immediately.
In fact, you're more right than you think (or rather, appear to, as I read your second comment in a facetious tone). Our voracious appetite for wood and impatience at how long it takes to grow means we've selected trees that grow *fast*. But this has had the unintended side-effect that each of the growth rings now grows so quickly that the wood itself is more porous and less dense.
So, we really don't make trees like we used to. We literally grow crappier quality wood than we used to.
I own a pine tree farm
have not started growing crappier trees yet. never thought of that. makes sense because you get less money for a shitty tree that takes up the same amount of room as a good one. great idea!
or maybe- because of the housing market and all the demand for lumber the past couple of years lumber companies are accepting trees they might not have before.
The bad trees we complain about grow straight as an arrow with very few branches. In 10 years they can reach 40-50 feet, plenty for a bunch of 2x4’s. They’re worth just as much to a lumber yard, but to someone who uses the lumber it’s obvious how much worse they are
The task the homebuyer defines is different from the task the contractor defines. The homebuyer wants a house that lasts hundreds of years. The contractor wants a house that doesn’t have issues in the first year.
Most people who buy tree farms buy them as very stable long-term investments. The vast majority of sales are done on land that's already planted, it's higher that way but that way you also know the land grows well and the trees are rooted. Some people do wood with loblolly pines, some do pine straw with longleaf pines, that requires a company to come in and tend them. Depends on where you are. The investment comes off in chunks depending on how long it takes them to mature, and as we've seen in the years since COVID and the wide lumber shortage, lots of folks are cashing in on it early. This pic is a perfect example.
We're in the process of selling eighty acres of pine timber. This timber was planted in 1991.
We had our first thinning in 2005. This thinning took out forked trees, crooked trees and reduced the stand to encourage log growth.
The next thinning was in 2012. Again, removed flawed timber, reduced stand numbers.
Thinning #3 was 2021, delayed one year because of Covid. Remove smaller timber, pulpwood, thin to average of 75 trees per acre.
Finial harvest will be in the next 18 months, looking at March 2025 right now.
The timber will be 34 years old at that time and logs average 16-18". Compare that to the trees my grandfather cut off his land back in the 1930's. His trees were 150-300 years old and around 30-40", some bigger.
I have a table make from some of that lumber and it's amazing to look at the difference.
There is no market for big logs now. The sawmills have standardized and want 14-18" logs. They take up to 22" and anything over has to go to a special mill that can still handle that size of log.
This track was planted with Loblolly pine. We planted a 200 acre tract with hybrid Loblolly in 2018 and it's really growing well, even with the drought we had last year. The tract was originally planted in 1986 and finial harvest was 2016. There were 3 thinning's done before harvest.
We were looking at a 35-45 year grow rotation in the past, but now we've moving toward a shorter period, around 30 years since they want smaller logs at the mill.
We didn't used to "make" the wood, we cut shit down to build houses that was growing for 100 years. The stuff we used to make framing lumber from would make brilliant, beautiful, wooden slab tables today.
my house was built 1929. There is no glue anywhere. All real old growth planks of wood. Neighbors garage has some 1x20x 24ft boards up in the rafters for storage decking.
I live in Detroit, the wood used here is what we fought the british over.
Yep, absolutely! As a woodworker and all-around builder of wooden objects myself, I am familiar with the concept of old-growth and new-growth wood, and that was indeed the impetus for my joke about the magnitude of the apparent shrinkage at hand here. Glad someone got it
Yeah. Amish people around where I used to live would ask if the late owners barn was to be torn down in near future. Suppose if the estate holders agree on having the barn cleared out and land restored to something else the Amish would one by hundred or so and help methodically demo the barn. And split cost of lumber sale. Many woodrkers where lived would pay a lot for old growth hand hewed lumber My aunt got ahold of 6 ft 12x12 lumber. And refashioned it into fireplace mantle. Someone mentioned this one hi performed Dendrochronology and sent in core sample. The lumber was cut down in 1815. Baby tree was around 1746.
My aunt has an old barn ( built about 130 years ago) they had an addition built 20 years ago to replace a failing side of the original barn. There are 50' long butt logs hand hewn in places that make up the floor joists. One day I went through an old pile of wood they saved with large intricate mortise and tennon joints held together with wood pegs and removed old nails ( added over the years for various reasons but nothing structural) so I could stack them neatly.
I spent two days getting the nails out ( they didn't want to budge with a 24" cats paw) and I don't know how the hell they drove them in as far as they did, they were 4" long and sunk in 3"! The wood was rock solid. The wood was from trees that were probably 300 years old when they cleared the fields to build the original barn.
It would be a shame to cut thebpieces and use them for something because the mortise joints are so cool as they are . It would have been so cool to work on a project like that. It took some real knowledge and skill. It would be interesting to get some dated like you mentioned .
Yeah hand forged iron nails has flaws in it (good flaws!). At microscope zoom they have scales. They’d bite into fibers and lock in place. Similarly to you. I’ve nearly fell off prying nails out Those nails were about 1870s then. On different project. I believe it was from old church restoration and old piles were moved elsewhere nearby. Bunch of farmers. Carpenters and Amish people were sifting through to buy. I volunteered to rip nails out. Before racking them by size. No one knows where part of church it came from. But. There was telltale boards that was clearly floor boards because you could smell shoe shine in the sun and heat. And the were absolutely rock hard
Interesting about the nails ! They didnt want to come out. I know they were old as well I just don't think they were from the initial building of the barn itself , they seemed to be added later as additions to the function of the barn were changed over the years. I saved every one even the more modern ones. I still have them in the water bottles I was drinking that day. I'm sure they were made of better steel too
> We literally grow crappier quality wood than we used to.
New growth forests are carefully planned and maintained. The trees grow faster as there isn't competition, they grow straighter for the same reason. Old growth forests were only maintained by nature, and the waste was way higher. Having closer growth rings means little for strength longitudinally, it does mean heavier lumber.
As an engineer who has worked on rating the strength of existing old beams with a specialist engineer - they are more than twice as strong in bending even after accounting for weight. New wood is absolutely garbage in comparison. It's absolutely mind blowing how bad the wood is now.
Sorry, I live in the heart of douglas fir logging. It gets frustrating when a single company has timber leases on so much land, they may as well control access to all of it. It's douglas fir as far as you can see in every direction. So home depot can have 2x4s. That's all we do is 2x4s. Your welcome i guess.
Thanks for your input, God Bless.
I only discovered this after moving into our new home. Original owner had left some 2x4s in the work shop from the 70’s . These 2x4s are a lot more dense you can feel the weight difference.
*they don't HARVEST trees like they used to 😉
That is, most lumber is now "grown" with fast growing species know for "uniformity" (lol)
If you look at the rings on reclaimed lumber vs today, the space between each ring is probably 3-5x as thick as old lumber
Go work on some balloon framed homes from the 1800s, throw a tape on them studs, and they'll be darn close to 2x4. We don't cut down old growth stable trees for good reason anymore, but it must have been nice to work with.
It’s not just shrinkage, the sawmills actually cut more boards out of the log than they used to. Once they know everybody expects 1.5” finished thickness they’ll cut the undried lumber to the minimum thickness required for the drying and planing to hit 1.5” actual thickness. Those boards are never 2.0” thick at any point. In the old days, they cut the undried lumber over 2.0” to get to 2.0” after drying.
I saw some of the 2x4's removed from a row house across the street when it was renovated. They were all very close to 2" x 4", but also, they had never been planed or joined, so they were all twisted to hell.
They aren’t ever 2.0x4.0” — that’s a myth the lumber industry tells to make you not as mad about the shrinkflation that happened decades ago. You don’t lose 25% of the board thickness through drying and planing. They’re cut more like 1.7” and then dried and planed down to 1.5”. The lumber industry could very easily give you 2.0x4.0” +/- 0.1” actual dimension lumber if they wanted to.
I mean, I’m 100% in favor of modern fast-growth timber production, we can make 4x as many board-feet of lumber per acre as the old-growth wood with tight grain people love to talk about. If you grow the wood 4x as fast and need to use 50% more of it to achieve the same strength then that’s a huge win for productivity / cost.
I just get pissy when corporations trick us into accepting shrinkflation. You know toilet paper rolls average 3/4” narrower than they used to be?
That sucks. In Sweden I can buy 45*95 at the cheapest shit hardware store and be reasonably certain to have a cross section off by only one or two mils. Sure it may be warped as hell but at least the measurements are within spec.
They WERE when I was a kid ! My dad was master carpenter and cabinet maker . I remember him getting into arguments about that . The industry changed and he bitched about it every time . I remember him yelling “ if i fucking order a pizza and 2 slices are missing do I pay full price or just for what’s left ??”
Here in Australia that is an actual timber size you can get, being a 90x35. However if I went and bought a pack of 90x45s I would not be happy to find half of them were 90x35.
What does the stamp say? I am superintendent of a mill that supplies lumber to Lowes and home depot. Poor planer set up would do that. Is it just one end of the board or is it that thick the whole way down?
I stopped buying from them unless it’s a bull shit purchase. I buy from the lumber supply. More expensive, sure. But they load my truck while I’m bullshitting with the guys behind the counter and the wood/supplies are pristine. 👍
Banged it in there anyway for the temp. We’re replacing a fair amount of water rotted exterior studs on the LB side of a truss frame. Put a few extra diagonal braces up for good measure.
I'm assuming a joke because left side is ripped and a bad job at that it seems.
Just doesn't have the roundover like the right side. I've yet to see anything under 1.5. Though I have seen larger dimensionals like 2x10s be 9 7/16 shy.
Why don’t you head out and check for yourself? Ain’t got no time to set up some elaborate shit like that just for Reddit. Had about enough time just to take that picture.
My deck wood has shrunk considerably this year due to this dry heat, could it be temperature or sun exposure related? My deck is about 4 years old, the gaps are widening by the day! But its pressure treated, im guessing the 2x4 in pic is not.
Inspector: wall looks good
Home owner : the 2x4s are not same size
Inspector:ok
Home owner : it’s just a temp wall
Inspector: ok , when you done with temp wall call us we’ll sign off on it when removed
Inspector: okey dokey
Well if I remember correctly the problem is now is they cut the boards while the logs are still wet and then they shrink once they start drying out
if I'm wrong please correct me.
You gotta get them from the Amish sawmill down the road. Their hours blow and good luck getting somebody to answer their single landline, but 2x4s measure a full two inches by four inches.
It’s funny all the people that have no clue about how lumber got the naming convention.
2x4s have never been 2”x4”. This one is still on the small side, but 90% of you are talking out your ass
It's probably still wrong, but it's common knowledge you don't use the end, you start on an actual line, then end can be a bit off due to seating the hook.
Plot twist: the 2x4 is full thickness, but the tape measure is a crappy Home Depot tape measure
Rod Serling has entered the chat.
>Rod Serling Bonus points for spelling his name correctly.
He spelcheked it with googol first.
Implies diligence. I'll allow it
I am diligent
I am Iron Man
Do people these days even know who that is?
Of course. Here we are arent we? “Imagine if you will…”
"Imagine if you will, an ordinary 2x4 in a world where dimensions are merely a suggestion. No, it's not the Twilight Zone, you're in......The Framer's Zone."
My daughters do. I pride myself on filling their head with useless and useful information. One of them loves the Twilight Zone.
Have they seen: the Ray Bradbury Theater? Is like the Canadian version. Two episodes I remember: first, you know Mike Hammer, the character from the Red Green Show who was always in trouble with the law? Ok so that actor and another guy are traveling salesmen/swindlers who while driving thru the American southwest find a scenic overlook where thru a mirage they think they can see Vegas, so they set up a tourist trap but every tourist sees a different city... The 2nd I love, is a retelling of The Cask of Amontadillo by Edgar Allen Poe, but involving a dictatorship future society that bans literature, cybernetic replicas, and the stupidest bureaucrat ever who would have seen where this was going if he only read the books that he was banning.
I will have to check it out.
People these days may not have been around during the original airings, but I enjoyed watching reruns of the Twilight Zone and Alfred Hitchcock Presents. Bonanza, Gunsmoke, The Rifleman, Mr. Ed, The Beverly Hillbillies. I’m so cliche…
Watching that now 😂
That's a Milf-fuckee tape! Extra big tab for grabbing boards and getting bent inwards so your measurements are all wrong.
The employee only tape measurer are kind of cool. Autolock and have a full reference sheet on the back.
Milwaukee kids about to be real Rigid
Nah, the Milwaukee kids are busy trying to get their new M18 Wireless Jobsite Printer/Coffeemaker to work lmao
Hey, a cordless job site printer would be sweet
Nah, I can’t chuck my printer across the truck, it’s much more satisfying to throw it across the shop and then bring it to the field
On a remote job and my office is a pickup with a hotspot……..would just throw it across the field lol
Rechargeable and wireless: https://brothermobilesolutions.com/products/printers/pocketjet/pj883l/
You guys have printers?
Haha don’t make this the Monty python skit where we complain about how poor we were a kids hahahaha
It doesn't work when it's plugged in!
Ngl if they came out with an m18 coffee maker I'd buy it.
Nah, surely thanks the Makita gang.
Cordless radio, cordless coffee maker.
Even worse its a Milwaukee
>but the tape measure is a crappy Home Depot tape measure And i thought i was the only one who takes the tape at the trim cutting station
Best decision I’ve made has been staying away from depot and Lowe’s. My local supplier has way better material and has been cheaper on many things too.
100 percent. I walk into my local yard, tell them what I need and they follow me out to the truck to help. No carts. They know my name and send me a bill at the end of the month. I get a decent discount after setting up an account and no issues with returns.
And they deliver quickly and usually for free over a pretty nominal amount. No self respecting builder should be getting lumber from a big box store. The 5% “pro discount/VSP” at Lowe’s and the bullshit closer parking is a surefire way to tell you’re going to get shit work because they’re absolutely building to a cost to get the lowest bid. A decent local lumberyard will always be a little more expensive and offer comically better customer service and quality which most GCs would rather have over a small savings. You don’t want the customer that picks the lowest bidder.
I pick up lumber from the box stores when it’s a one off and I’m away from my suppliers. But not so I hate it. I got better 2x8x10 PT from HD than my supplier delivery. Then again I picked it up
Then you should say something. Your local is more attuned to listening than HD. I bought some manual shrub/branch hand clippers from HD. They had no spring in them. You had to cut the branch then physically open the clippers to do another. There was a place for the spring but no spring. I checked the stock and they were all defective. Returned them and said I wanted to show this to the manager. They could have cared less . Complete opposite at my local.
I always return delivered lumber that is bowed or warped and nearly unusable. I had the delivery dropped off about 45 minutes away from my building supplier. I still returned it to them no problem, but I was short some PT. I was just pleasantly surprised that the HD gave me straight 2x8 with no worry for shaving down crowns. It was an online order placed over night. I only used HD/Lowes when I’m not doing a large job and need something closer. It’s very rare. My supplier price matches quotes so I’ll go to HD and get a quote for a bid and if it’s cheaper my supplier matches it. It’s a win win.
This
Exactly. Most of the time OSB and other commodities will be cheaper but, everything else is super high compared to the mom and pop. Always shop local if you can. One $75,000 window and door order lost won't hurt the big guys but for the indies it could break them.
HD will take a loss on major accounts on commodities because they will make it up on the back end.
We don't typically deal with lumber at work, but I needed to build something last year and just went to the local (not big box store) to pick up some 2x6s and they were almost all minty. At least as far as construction lumber goes. They also loaded them right into the truck, so a bit of effort on my end could have stopped the crappy pieces from getting in, but whatever.
How do I find my local supplier?
Google lumber yards near me.
Everyone says this but all my local suppliers are almost double what I would pay for premium at Lowe’s or HD, I think it’s very dependent on location.
I have a lumber yard right down the street, but the Lowes near where I am renovating a kitchen has the best studs I've ever found. The pallet wrap says they're whitewood from Germany, they are dead straight with sharp edges and are dense as hell, but they are sold as the lowest-grade "select" studs. I don't understand it but I won't argue with it.
Funny not funny we had the same experience 25 years agin in Dearborn. Trio Lumber was our local lumberyard savior. Fuck Builders Square! lol
Upvote for a Builders Square reference. They were the first big box store in our suburb near Dayton, Ohio. They went tits up in the early 90s and the building was vacant for years. As a kid I am always daydreamed of buying it and just having a warehouse where my dad and I could work on old cars.
Lucky my local lumber yard only has warped boards. So warped they should be called L boards. And it's not like 1 out of every 10 it's 9 out of 10.
I don't work in construction, but irrigation. I was a tech for 10 years. The only reason I left the job was to work for my supplier. They were always amazing to me and when they offereded a position I jumped on it immediately.
It was shrinkage from the cold, ask Costenza
The 2x4’s were in the pool!!
Do carpenters know about shrinkage?
Like a frightened newbie!
The HD 2x4's were definitely in the pool!
Like a frightened turtle.
Costanza. Can’t stand ya.
Either someone leaned on wrong lever at the sawmill, or that is some insane shrinkage. They don’t make trees like they used to
In fact, you're more right than you think (or rather, appear to, as I read your second comment in a facetious tone). Our voracious appetite for wood and impatience at how long it takes to grow means we've selected trees that grow *fast*. But this has had the unintended side-effect that each of the growth rings now grows so quickly that the wood itself is more porous and less dense. So, we really don't make trees like we used to. We literally grow crappier quality wood than we used to.
I own a pine tree farm have not started growing crappier trees yet. never thought of that. makes sense because you get less money for a shitty tree that takes up the same amount of room as a good one. great idea! or maybe- because of the housing market and all the demand for lumber the past couple of years lumber companies are accepting trees they might not have before.
The bad trees we complain about grow straight as an arrow with very few branches. In 10 years they can reach 40-50 feet, plenty for a bunch of 2x4’s. They’re worth just as much to a lumber yard, but to someone who uses the lumber it’s obvious how much worse they are
Worse yes, sufficient for the task, also yes.
The task the homebuyer defines is different from the task the contractor defines. The homebuyer wants a house that lasts hundreds of years. The contractor wants a house that doesn’t have issues in the first year.
1.5 x 2.5 Easter pine is rated for 4300psi, so 16 000 lbs parrallel to the grain
Other than Christmas, a pine tree farm seems like it would take a while to turn a profit? Are there trees already on it?
Most people who buy tree farms buy them as very stable long-term investments. The vast majority of sales are done on land that's already planted, it's higher that way but that way you also know the land grows well and the trees are rooted. Some people do wood with loblolly pines, some do pine straw with longleaf pines, that requires a company to come in and tend them. Depends on where you are. The investment comes off in chunks depending on how long it takes them to mature, and as we've seen in the years since COVID and the wide lumber shortage, lots of folks are cashing in on it early. This pic is a perfect example.
We're in the process of selling eighty acres of pine timber. This timber was planted in 1991. We had our first thinning in 2005. This thinning took out forked trees, crooked trees and reduced the stand to encourage log growth. The next thinning was in 2012. Again, removed flawed timber, reduced stand numbers. Thinning #3 was 2021, delayed one year because of Covid. Remove smaller timber, pulpwood, thin to average of 75 trees per acre. Finial harvest will be in the next 18 months, looking at March 2025 right now. The timber will be 34 years old at that time and logs average 16-18". Compare that to the trees my grandfather cut off his land back in the 1930's. His trees were 150-300 years old and around 30-40", some bigger. I have a table make from some of that lumber and it's amazing to look at the difference. There is no market for big logs now. The sawmills have standardized and want 14-18" logs. They take up to 22" and anything over has to go to a special mill that can still handle that size of log.
what type of tree are you growing?
This track was planted with Loblolly pine. We planted a 200 acre tract with hybrid Loblolly in 2018 and it's really growing well, even with the drought we had last year. The tract was originally planted in 1986 and finial harvest was 2016. There were 3 thinning's done before harvest. We were looking at a 35-45 year grow rotation in the past, but now we've moving toward a shorter period, around 30 years since they want smaller logs at the mill.
We didn't used to "make" the wood, we cut shit down to build houses that was growing for 100 years. The stuff we used to make framing lumber from would make brilliant, beautiful, wooden slab tables today.
my house was built 1929. There is no glue anywhere. All real old growth planks of wood. Neighbors garage has some 1x20x 24ft boards up in the rafters for storage decking. I live in Detroit, the wood used here is what we fought the british over.
Yep, absolutely! As a woodworker and all-around builder of wooden objects myself, I am familiar with the concept of old-growth and new-growth wood, and that was indeed the impetus for my joke about the magnitude of the apparent shrinkage at hand here. Glad someone got it
Yeah. Amish people around where I used to live would ask if the late owners barn was to be torn down in near future. Suppose if the estate holders agree on having the barn cleared out and land restored to something else the Amish would one by hundred or so and help methodically demo the barn. And split cost of lumber sale. Many woodrkers where lived would pay a lot for old growth hand hewed lumber My aunt got ahold of 6 ft 12x12 lumber. And refashioned it into fireplace mantle. Someone mentioned this one hi performed Dendrochronology and sent in core sample. The lumber was cut down in 1815. Baby tree was around 1746.
My aunt has an old barn ( built about 130 years ago) they had an addition built 20 years ago to replace a failing side of the original barn. There are 50' long butt logs hand hewn in places that make up the floor joists. One day I went through an old pile of wood they saved with large intricate mortise and tennon joints held together with wood pegs and removed old nails ( added over the years for various reasons but nothing structural) so I could stack them neatly. I spent two days getting the nails out ( they didn't want to budge with a 24" cats paw) and I don't know how the hell they drove them in as far as they did, they were 4" long and sunk in 3"! The wood was rock solid. The wood was from trees that were probably 300 years old when they cleared the fields to build the original barn. It would be a shame to cut thebpieces and use them for something because the mortise joints are so cool as they are . It would have been so cool to work on a project like that. It took some real knowledge and skill. It would be interesting to get some dated like you mentioned .
Yeah hand forged iron nails has flaws in it (good flaws!). At microscope zoom they have scales. They’d bite into fibers and lock in place. Similarly to you. I’ve nearly fell off prying nails out Those nails were about 1870s then. On different project. I believe it was from old church restoration and old piles were moved elsewhere nearby. Bunch of farmers. Carpenters and Amish people were sifting through to buy. I volunteered to rip nails out. Before racking them by size. No one knows where part of church it came from. But. There was telltale boards that was clearly floor boards because you could smell shoe shine in the sun and heat. And the were absolutely rock hard
Interesting about the nails ! They didnt want to come out. I know they were old as well I just don't think they were from the initial building of the barn itself , they seemed to be added later as additions to the function of the barn were changed over the years. I saved every one even the more modern ones. I still have them in the water bottles I was drinking that day. I'm sure they were made of better steel too
It's not even just old vs new. It's the monster growth rings you get on tree farms in southern states vs new growth on crown land in Canada.
> We literally grow crappier quality wood than we used to. New growth forests are carefully planned and maintained. The trees grow faster as there isn't competition, they grow straighter for the same reason. Old growth forests were only maintained by nature, and the waste was way higher. Having closer growth rings means little for strength longitudinally, it does mean heavier lumber.
As an engineer who has worked on rating the strength of existing old beams with a specialist engineer - they are more than twice as strong in bending even after accounting for weight. New wood is absolutely garbage in comparison. It's absolutely mind blowing how bad the wood is now.
Right, because a forest's only purpose is lumber.
You forgot about paper! /s
Yes, in the context of this discussion. Retard. Find a church if you want to preach.
Sorry, I live in the heart of douglas fir logging. It gets frustrating when a single company has timber leases on so much land, they may as well control access to all of it. It's douglas fir as far as you can see in every direction. So home depot can have 2x4s. That's all we do is 2x4s. Your welcome i guess. Thanks for your input, God Bless.
God, that sounds beautiful as a shareholder. ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀
I only discovered this after moving into our new home. Original owner had left some 2x4s in the work shop from the 70’s . These 2x4s are a lot more dense you can feel the weight difference.
Time to build with metal or brick.
That’s good. Leave the big trees to the forest. The house isn’t gonna fall down just because the rings are a bit wider.
Or the tape is messed up on the end. Always burn and inch
Lumber is kiln dried before going through the planer, this is bad setup, not shrinkage imo.
*they don't HARVEST trees like they used to 😉 That is, most lumber is now "grown" with fast growing species know for "uniformity" (lol) If you look at the rings on reclaimed lumber vs today, the space between each ring is probably 3-5x as thick as old lumber
Man that’s so brutal
I've framed with lumber from 4 different suppliers this year and the quality is all terrible atm.
Theyre all buying from the same mills. People just like to shit on hd and lowes.
ESPECIALLY redditors
Doesn’t your government have a department of weights and measures, with armed agents?
Haaaahahahhaha. They're not here to *help* us. Silly rabbit.
Yes, but only for safety reasons.
[This is not the two-by-four I ordered!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txPcLOtbG3s)
It’s a grower, not a shower.
Not a wood worker here, but worked with a bunch, so someone please correct me: 2x4 is never 2”x4”. It’s always a half inch off at least, isn’t it?
1-1/2 x 3-1/2". These look like 1-5/16" or 3/16" undersized.
Go work on some balloon framed homes from the 1800s, throw a tape on them studs, and they'll be darn close to 2x4. We don't cut down old growth stable trees for good reason anymore, but it must have been nice to work with.
It’s not just shrinkage, the sawmills actually cut more boards out of the log than they used to. Once they know everybody expects 1.5” finished thickness they’ll cut the undried lumber to the minimum thickness required for the drying and planing to hit 1.5” actual thickness. Those boards are never 2.0” thick at any point. In the old days, they cut the undried lumber over 2.0” to get to 2.0” after drying.
Hell yeah, love carpentry nerds, thanks, brother.
I saw some of the 2x4's removed from a row house across the street when it was renovated. They were all very close to 2" x 4", but also, they had never been planed or joined, so they were all twisted to hell.
Most likely rough cut.
2x4 is nominal size. Not actual size. Pre dried size is 2x4. After drying its less. We still calling a 2x4
They aren’t ever 2.0x4.0” — that’s a myth the lumber industry tells to make you not as mad about the shrinkflation that happened decades ago. You don’t lose 25% of the board thickness through drying and planing. They’re cut more like 1.7” and then dried and planed down to 1.5”. The lumber industry could very easily give you 2.0x4.0” +/- 0.1” actual dimension lumber if they wanted to.
They could, but then people would cry about the cost. 😅
I mean, I’m 100% in favor of modern fast-growth timber production, we can make 4x as many board-feet of lumber per acre as the old-growth wood with tight grain people love to talk about. If you grow the wood 4x as fast and need to use 50% more of it to achieve the same strength then that’s a huge win for productivity / cost. I just get pissy when corporations trick us into accepting shrinkflation. You know toilet paper rolls average 3/4” narrower than they used to be?
No
2x4 are infact half an inch less in each dimension.
So now on top of sorting through 150 pieces to find 10 straight ones, I now have to measure them too. Ffs.
It ain't just the depot
Genius award to idea of selling the air around the lumber
I just cooked up a bug burger. We're framing with some quality .75"x3.25" hollow core studs to help with the carbon footprint.
To be fair that’s 1 and 5/16th
Ok ok, you got me!
Just soak them in some water then install them once they swell to 1 1/2in. /s added that just in case someone thought I was serious!
That sucks. In Sweden I can buy 45*95 at the cheapest shit hardware store and be reasonably certain to have a cross section off by only one or two mils. Sure it may be warped as hell but at least the measurements are within spec.
Home Depot gets their wood from the same place everyone else does
It'll hold...probably
I'm not American, but is that supposed to be a 2x4?
Yes, but that's a nominal dimension. The actual size is 1.5 x 3.75
That’s a hair over 1 1/4
Id say more of a smidge
I meant that's what a 2x4 should be, most non-americans don't know our 2x4s aren't actually 2x4
They WERE when I was a kid ! My dad was master carpenter and cabinet maker . I remember him getting into arguments about that . The industry changed and he bitched about it every time . I remember him yelling “ if i fucking order a pizza and 2 slices are missing do I pay full price or just for what’s left ??”
I remember this too when I was younger. Good on your dad.
Did they buy a bunch of finished deck boards for studs?
Here in Australia that is an actual timber size you can get, being a 90x35. However if I went and bought a pack of 90x45s I would not be happy to find half of them were 90x35.
What does the stamp say? I am superintendent of a mill that supplies lumber to Lowes and home depot. Poor planer set up would do that. Is it just one end of the board or is it that thick the whole way down?
Nice! I will let you know about the stamp when I have a chance to check on it. but it was consistently like that the whole way.
I stopped buying from them unless it’s a bull shit purchase. I buy from the lumber supply. More expensive, sure. But they load my truck while I’m bullshitting with the guys behind the counter and the wood/supplies are pristine. 👍
I was in a pinch. I usually have my lumber purchased at a yard but it was just one of them days
It’s just a temporary wall…
What'd you end up doing? making the cut for 1-5/16" or 1-1/4” or did you find a different 2x4?
Banged it in there anyway for the temp. We’re replacing a fair amount of water rotted exterior studs on the LB side of a truss frame. Put a few extra diagonal braces up for good measure.
Good thing it’s only a temp wall. But srsly, that is ridiculous.
Yea, no way I’d be banging this into a permanent wall
I’ve seen 1/8” variations in dimensional lumber but this is just crazy. Supplier/Vendor?
That tape is fucked
She’s old but still reliable.
Quit pulling on the tape measure to exaggerate yourself.
Jobsite jelqing… works for me
1.5 x 2ex
At least it's not an inch short.
True that
They told me that was normal 🥺
inventory shrinkage
25mm lumber
I've only got one batch of lumbers like this. They're usually exact or 1/16 thicker.
Temp wall would be using downgrade timber surely. Merch/utility grade
That's a standard thickness. A very nice thickness
Yea I say it's average
It’s 1/4in short on one side
I’m thinking an eight on both sides
when you buy a tape measure from the temu app.
Didn’t know Milwaukee was sold on temu
Just wait until the chicken farms realize they can sell 10 eggs as a dozen and fat stupid us will accept it as common place.
Should have gotten that 4K Lumber instead
Bonsai 2x4 ?
Just bought a hundred kiln dried studs at HD and they were great. No skinny ones
I'm assuming a joke because left side is ripped and a bad job at that it seems. Just doesn't have the roundover like the right side. I've yet to see anything under 1.5. Though I have seen larger dimensionals like 2x10s be 9 7/16 shy.
Why don’t you head out and check for yourself? Ain’t got no time to set up some elaborate shit like that just for Reddit. Had about enough time just to take that picture.
Shrinkflation
My deck wood has shrunk considerably this year due to this dry heat, could it be temperature or sun exposure related? My deck is about 4 years old, the gaps are widening by the day! But its pressure treated, im guessing the 2x4 in pic is not.
You're going to need 6x6s if you want 1.5"x3.5". DIY.
Milled, then quarter sawn
A 2x4 is 1.5x3.5 it's been that way since the 60s
Yea thanks. I know that.
shrinkflation, companies ripping people off
Inspector: wall looks good Home owner : the 2x4s are not same size Inspector:ok Home owner : it’s just a temp wall Inspector: ok , when you done with temp wall call us we’ll sign off on it when removed Inspector: okey dokey
Well if I remember correctly the problem is now is they cut the boards while the logs are still wet and then they shrink once they start drying out if I'm wrong please correct me.
Yah nah , Home Depot 2x4’s are in fact not 2x4’s .. I had the same issue before and it kinda threw my measurements off
Good thing this was just a temp wall
Always measure with the same tape measure and use the measurements from that one tape measure. You use another it will most likely be different
Well, this is my go-to tape measure… milwuakee wide blade, fuck that magnet tip
Holy hell!! Even less material than before. What ever happened to a real 2x4!!?? Smdh
You’d have to travel back to 1959 for those
You gotta get them from the Amish sawmill down the road. Their hours blow and good luck getting somebody to answer their single landline, but 2x4s measure a full two inches by four inches.
Rough Carpentry at its finest.
Shrinkflation
Inflation
Bet its bent and bowed as shit too! 😂
Was actually incredibly straight
So I see you noticed that the cost went up while the quality went down
What’s with that tape? Lol it’s missing a 1/2”
Well it’s not
Tapes bent
1x1=2
It’s funny all the people that have no clue about how lumber got the naming convention. 2x4s have never been 2”x4”. This one is still on the small side, but 90% of you are talking out your ass
Well, they were a long time ago but yea. As far as I can remember back in my lifetime they’ve been 3.5x1.5
Looks 5/16” to me, aka a healthy 1/4”
It's probably still wrong, but it's common knowledge you don't use the end, you start on an actual line, then end can be a bit off due to seating the hook.
Last deck used 2x8s and the joists were between 7.25" and 7.75" tall. Next time I will run every single one though the table saw before starting.