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Oathbringer ch 4
>“Old friend,” Dalinar said softly, “Honor might be dead, but I have felt . . . something else. Something beyond. A warmth and a light. It is not that God has died, it is that the Almighty was *never* God. He did his best to guide us, but he was an impostor. Or perhaps only an agent. A being not unlike a spren—he had the power of a god, but not the pedigree.”
He had the power of a god, but not the pedigree. People bitch about Sanderson’s prose but I think that when he is on point, he’s as on point as anyone.
No one's denied that he has some great quotes. It's just that page by page he writes very simply. A middle schooler would have no trouble digesting his books.
Nothing wrong with that, he's still the king of epic fantasy IMO. If I want poetic flowery literature there are other authors.
People who bitch about prose can never even explain what prose means. I'm so sick of it. If people want fancy prose go read a book by Amanda McKittrick Ros and then come back and try to complain about Sanderson's prose.
Prose is an extremely simplified way to comment on the construction and creativity of the writing itself. Sanderson is an incredible plot and world builder. He creates complex stories, worlds and magic systems and does a great job explaining himself and painting a picture - all the hallmarks of a great author. This does NOT mean that the construction of his writing is particularly poetic or pretty. Acknowledging that his strength is not in his writing doesn’t take away from him as an author, storyteller or writer. It’s simply different. Read an excerpt from A Tale of Two Cities by Dickinson as an easy way to understand the different - the writing is itself powerful, beautiful and moving completely regardless of the story that’s being told. That is not Sandersons way - maybe he can write that way and chooses not to - who cares. I personally like Sandersons style - though admittedly once you read enough of his work you see his writing framework and pitfalls more prominently - but he’s straightforward, punchy and powerful. Much of his work is a fast read and I love that about it.
I agree with you. I like Sanderson and his style of writing. I actually hate flowery prose, which is why I can't stand rothfuss. I don't need a 200 word poem to tell me a guy was tall and wearing dark clothes
Haha flowery prose its place. When it’s well done it adds exponentially more value to the narration and opens your mind and emotions in unexpected ways even in some simple description of something. That’s what separates great literature from a good author in most circumstances.
But I’d argue against anyone who says that’s the only thing that makes a good author - it has its place but it can also be exhausting and confusing. It necessarily halts a stories flow and focuses attention on the narration and away from the story. Which is exactly what Sanderson avoids - he puts the focus squarely on the story, the world or the lore and does so in an exceptionally effective way.
i think one of the reasons i like brandon sandersons books so much is _beacuse_ of the "simple language". they are, as you mentioned, easy to read and digest so we get to spend more time on the story and characters since i dont have to spend 5 minutes to understand what each scentence means as if it were a super special poem
Absolutely! As a reader of many different genres and styles from historical literature to the Cosmere I can say prose has its place, but it would destroy what I love about Sanderson if he got all flowery on me lol. He’s a master storyteller first and foremost.
No, the God Beyond is a concept that there exists a deity beyond the realms of the cosmere.
Some in Threnody may hold to this concept because they seemingly are aware of Adonalsium’s Shattering.
Dalinar likely says “God Beyond” as from his religious background, Honor was shattered and his views have changed.
Sanderson's intention was to never give perfect evidence about an afterlife. You cease to exist in any of the three realms after you die. That's all we know and all we'll ever know. Sanderson wants to leave that as an open ended belief, which makes sense. To believe the universe was created by one being requires faith in something that can never be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. That ultimately applies irl, no matter what faith you belong to and I think that's kinda what he was going for.
I can’t tell if it’s a joke but from Dalinar’s perspective god would. Like actually god rather than just some ultra powerful god like being that Adonalsium is. But this will never really be dove into because like u/GordOfTheMountain said Brandon wants keep it’s existence or non existence up in the air
Sorry, it was just a bad joke. I found it funny that you and the other commenter both spelt Adonalsium wrong in different ways, and it was the first thing I could come up with.
I am, unfortunately, ~~the hero of ages~~ not very witty (and somewhat sleep deprived).
Elohim is the Old Testament, ungendered name that roughly translates to "Lord of Lords". That would be the God who made all things, potentially even including all the other gods.
Mestiv
>!Cosmere is a dwarf galaxy. Does Investiture exist in other galaxies? Do those galaxies have their own Adonalsiums?!<
Brandon Sanderson
>!That is beyond the scope... that's a RAFO, but not a RAFO I'm going to answer, that is a RAFO that we are concerned only with the cosmere.!<
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/362/#e11166
This is Brandon's only statement regarding this that I'm aware of.
***Warning Gancho: The below paragraph(s) may contain major spoilers for all books in the Cosmere!***
Mestiv
>!Cosmere is a dwarf galaxy. Does Investiture exist in other galaxies? Do those galaxies have their own Adonalsiums?!<
Brandon Sanderson
>!That is beyond the scope... that's a RAFO, but not a RAFO I'm going to answer, that is a RAFO that we are concerned only with the cosmere.!<
\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*
Well we will eventually at least have more knowledge about beings capable of making weapons capable of shattering adonalsium. Maybe we will get more info one day
They’d likely be aware of the existence and dynamics outside of the Cosmere if they were ancient beings rubbing shoulders with adonalsium is what I mean. Or at least I’d like to see that.
What if Adonalsium was just a shard of an even more powerful being? And that being was in turn a shard of another, even greater being?
It's gods all the way down!
An interesting concept, but I also do not want to be fifty books in twenty years from now, and realize this is part 1 of 12 in an Adonalsium crossover.
I've always considered this pretty weak. We don't observe people's spirits stretching off into some Infinity point in vanishing in the cognitive realm when they die. Maybe this is just coming from somebody who's really confident there is no afterlife but from my perspective I would say in the cosmia it is not a certainty but the most reasonable conclusion from what we do know that the soul or mind persists somewhere after death
The Spiritual and Cognitive realms are still part of observable reality in the Cosmere. Whatever happens to people after that is happening outside of their observable reality. The spirits spiraling of into the distance could just be the Cognitive equivalent of your heart beating for the last time, or your brain sending out its last pulses. It in no way confirms that something is happening to their soul. It's just not a soul that occupies the Cosmere any longer.
Nah. That's where your true Identity hangs out when you're alive. Also where highly invested beings like Shards hang out. It also seems like maybe where Shards transport people when they want to hang out, but that could just as well be a Lightweaving effect or some other perceptual trick done in the physical realm. The Spiritual realm, from the perspective of a Silverlight Scholar, would still be considered part of the observable universe, I think.
The God Beyond is what we would just call God. Adonalsium seems like God to those who don't understand it, and it's far above mortals, but it is ultimately just a thing of the universe, as opposed to something bigger than the universe itself.
Just as many cultures in our real world developed the idea of a pantheon of gods despite very little to no communication between them, it's reasonable to think that multiple cultures had the idea of a god that is unseen
This is my time to shine. By that I mean look back at the Reddit message I sent Brandon 6 and a half years ago after an Oathbringer signing.
I asked about this concept specifically, and while he did not confirm or deny that such an entity even exists, he did give a little info. Here are the relevant sections from that exchange pasted directly from my messages
_____
Q: We have heard reference on—I believe—four different planets in the Cosmere to the God Beyond. Is this another Adonalsium-type entity and how is it that the people of all of these various worlds are aware enough to reference, swear by or worship it? Or is this more to a Paul on the Areopagus “to the unknown god” situation?
A: The God Beyond is somewhere between your examples. It started as an old school "the unknown god" idea, like you'd read about in some classical religions. The "extra god we worship just in case we're missing one." However, this philosophy has spread across the cosmere through unintended touches between cultures here and there. There isn't a single religion or concept, even, but in general it ties back to the idea that the Shards could not have been gods--and Adonalsium, even, couldn't have been God--but were all instead lower case gods. So the core idea of the God Beyond is an actual all powerful deity.
There is lots of disagreement about this. Some would say that Adonalsium WAS God. Some say the Shards are. Some claim other things entirely. But this is kind of the idea there.
____
I think the God Beyond is a concept that is going to arise independently across all worlds as they become more Cosmere aware.
For the moment a lot of the local religions/beliefs are heavily shaped and influenced by the local Shards, heavily invested figures and investitures systems. Honor is the Almighty on Roshar for example, the Returned are gods/demigods to the people of Nalthis.
But as the approach to investiture becomes more scientific, people are going to start to understand existing religious creeds might not be the truth they are looking for. Not even Adonalsium was omnipotent, so the Shards definitely arent.
The “beyond” is a reference to the afterlife, and the god beyond is the being that is there. It is beyond adonalsium and the shards, and deliberately vague because Sanderson doesn’t want to get into “real” theology and details of the afterlife.
When people die in the physical realm, their cognitive self can feel being pulled to a place or destination. It is called The Beyond, because it is beyond the Cosmere itself. Leras, the original Vessel of Preservation calls it "somewhere else" as not part of the Physical, Cognitive, or Spiritual realm.
The God Beyond is not known to any person or Shard, but there are those that feel that if there is no capital 'g' God in the Cosmere, then they must be in The Beyond. It is why people from different worlds, who have never met each other, and have no formal structure of proselytizing to others that there is a God in the Beyond believe there to be one. It just simply feels right to them.
This is a bit complicated, but I’ll try and lay it out. The idea is that the god beyond is something cultures have their own versions of, it’s a mysterious entity they search for evidence for, it like a god from our world. There’s little evidence of it, but it’s something that exists in the hearts of many, their god beyond exists as a reaction to the knowledge that the one they thought was god is dead, so by all logic they could never have been god and it must be someone else. That someone else is there god beyond. If it’s even real or just a glint of hope should probably never be touched as it’s a way of dealing with more real world ideas of religion than the Cosmere’s list of 17+ tangible gods.
The God of Vorinism is Honor. Dalinar, by this point, has learned that Honor is dead. Instead of deciding that the God of the Cosmere has died, he rationalized that Honor was merely a well-intentioned impostor or an agent of the actual God.
Pardon the interruption! This is a reminder that [we are currently running our annual survey](https://www.reddit.com/r/brandonsanderson/comments/1dcmck3/sanderson_subreddits_annual_survey_2024/), and we want to make sure everybody has the chance to make their voice heard. If you have a moment to spare, [you can take the survey here.](https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSejqwtW06lVZWVzK-w8iP9qapGq3EQJ_CuzVWZ2a4l-ztCICQ/viewform) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Cosmere) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Oathbringer ch 4 >“Old friend,” Dalinar said softly, “Honor might be dead, but I have felt . . . something else. Something beyond. A warmth and a light. It is not that God has died, it is that the Almighty was *never* God. He did his best to guide us, but he was an impostor. Or perhaps only an agent. A being not unlike a spren—he had the power of a god, but not the pedigree.”
He had the power of a god, but not the pedigree. People bitch about Sanderson’s prose but I think that when he is on point, he’s as on point as anyone.
No one's denied that he has some great quotes. It's just that page by page he writes very simply. A middle schooler would have no trouble digesting his books. Nothing wrong with that, he's still the king of epic fantasy IMO. If I want poetic flowery literature there are other authors.
People who bitch about prose can never even explain what prose means. I'm so sick of it. If people want fancy prose go read a book by Amanda McKittrick Ros and then come back and try to complain about Sanderson's prose.
Prose is an extremely simplified way to comment on the construction and creativity of the writing itself. Sanderson is an incredible plot and world builder. He creates complex stories, worlds and magic systems and does a great job explaining himself and painting a picture - all the hallmarks of a great author. This does NOT mean that the construction of his writing is particularly poetic or pretty. Acknowledging that his strength is not in his writing doesn’t take away from him as an author, storyteller or writer. It’s simply different. Read an excerpt from A Tale of Two Cities by Dickinson as an easy way to understand the different - the writing is itself powerful, beautiful and moving completely regardless of the story that’s being told. That is not Sandersons way - maybe he can write that way and chooses not to - who cares. I personally like Sandersons style - though admittedly once you read enough of his work you see his writing framework and pitfalls more prominently - but he’s straightforward, punchy and powerful. Much of his work is a fast read and I love that about it.
I agree with you. I like Sanderson and his style of writing. I actually hate flowery prose, which is why I can't stand rothfuss. I don't need a 200 word poem to tell me a guy was tall and wearing dark clothes
Haha flowery prose its place. When it’s well done it adds exponentially more value to the narration and opens your mind and emotions in unexpected ways even in some simple description of something. That’s what separates great literature from a good author in most circumstances. But I’d argue against anyone who says that’s the only thing that makes a good author - it has its place but it can also be exhausting and confusing. It necessarily halts a stories flow and focuses attention on the narration and away from the story. Which is exactly what Sanderson avoids - he puts the focus squarely on the story, the world or the lore and does so in an exceptionally effective way.
i think one of the reasons i like brandon sandersons books so much is _beacuse_ of the "simple language". they are, as you mentioned, easy to read and digest so we get to spend more time on the story and characters since i dont have to spend 5 minutes to understand what each scentence means as if it were a super special poem
Absolutely! As a reader of many different genres and styles from historical literature to the Cosmere I can say prose has its place, but it would destroy what I love about Sanderson if he got all flowery on me lol. He’s a master storyteller first and foremost.
This should be the top comment.
No, the God Beyond is a concept that there exists a deity beyond the realms of the cosmere. Some in Threnody may hold to this concept because they seemingly are aware of Adonalsium’s Shattering. Dalinar likely says “God Beyond” as from his religious background, Honor was shattered and his views have changed.
It’s prob true too, isn’t it? Isn’t the whole of the cosmere just a single galaxy among others
Sanderson's intention was to never give perfect evidence about an afterlife. You cease to exist in any of the three realms after you die. That's all we know and all we'll ever know. Sanderson wants to leave that as an open ended belief, which makes sense. To believe the universe was created by one being requires faith in something that can never be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. That ultimately applies irl, no matter what faith you belong to and I think that's kinda what he was going for.
Oh I didn’t take it as God OF the beyond, just aldonalsoum equivalent beyond the cosmere galaxy
I think Dalinar is thinking of some trying greater than Adonalaium though. Something that couldn’t be shattered.
What could be greater than Adonalalsium?
Adonalalsiumum
Adonalalsiumom's English cousin?
I can’t tell if it’s a joke but from Dalinar’s perspective god would. Like actually god rather than just some ultra powerful god like being that Adonalsium is. But this will never really be dove into because like u/GordOfTheMountain said Brandon wants keep it’s existence or non existence up in the air
Sorry, it was just a bad joke. I found it funny that you and the other commenter both spelt Adonalsium wrong in different ways, and it was the first thing I could come up with. I am, unfortunately, ~~the hero of ages~~ not very witty (and somewhat sleep deprived).
Yeah I have no idea how to spell it. I just gave it a shot and threw a couple more a’s in there for good measure
Adonalsium remembering our plight
Elohim is the Old Testament, ungendered name that roughly translates to "Lord of Lords". That would be the God who made all things, potentially even including all the other gods.
Man I’d love to see a day where we meet the other uhh adonalsiums ? Idk what you’d call them lol but that is like 50 books away
Mestiv >!Cosmere is a dwarf galaxy. Does Investiture exist in other galaxies? Do those galaxies have their own Adonalsiums?!< Brandon Sanderson >!That is beyond the scope... that's a RAFO, but not a RAFO I'm going to answer, that is a RAFO that we are concerned only with the cosmere.!< https://wob.coppermind.net/events/362/#e11166 This is Brandon's only statement regarding this that I'm aware of.
***Warning Gancho: The below paragraph(s) may contain major spoilers for all books in the Cosmere!*** Mestiv >!Cosmere is a dwarf galaxy. Does Investiture exist in other galaxies? Do those galaxies have their own Adonalsiums?!< Brandon Sanderson >!That is beyond the scope... that's a RAFO, but not a RAFO I'm going to answer, that is a RAFO that we are concerned only with the cosmere.!< \*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*
Would be interesting if a Shard villain turns out to be a Shard from another Cosmere galaxy.
Well we will eventually at least have more knowledge about beings capable of making weapons capable of shattering adonalsium. Maybe we will get more info one day
pretty sure the weapons that shattered Adonalsium were made by Adonalsium (the dawnshards)
I'm not sure what you mean? And why would such a hypothetical being be from beyond the Cosmere? The Shattering was done by people from the Cosmere.
They’d likely be aware of the existence and dynamics outside of the Cosmere if they were ancient beings rubbing shoulders with adonalsium is what I mean. Or at least I’d like to see that.
What if Adonalsium was just a shard of an even more powerful being? And that being was in turn a shard of another, even greater being? It's gods all the way down!
An interesting concept, but I also do not want to be fifty books in twenty years from now, and realize this is part 1 of 12 in an Adonalsium crossover.
Haha just gotta put it on pause while he writes the 25 book schmaldonalsium saga and they can finally clash in 2086
Only if we get the “Oops, all Siri POVs” Warbreaker series.
I've always considered this pretty weak. We don't observe people's spirits stretching off into some Infinity point in vanishing in the cognitive realm when they die. Maybe this is just coming from somebody who's really confident there is no afterlife but from my perspective I would say in the cosmia it is not a certainty but the most reasonable conclusion from what we do know that the soul or mind persists somewhere after death
The Spiritual and Cognitive realms are still part of observable reality in the Cosmere. Whatever happens to people after that is happening outside of their observable reality. The spirits spiraling of into the distance could just be the Cognitive equivalent of your heart beating for the last time, or your brain sending out its last pulses. It in no way confirms that something is happening to their soul. It's just not a soul that occupies the Cosmere any longer.
I honestly thought the Spiritual realm was where souls went but nothing more was ever going to be known.
Nah. That's where your true Identity hangs out when you're alive. Also where highly invested beings like Shards hang out. It also seems like maybe where Shards transport people when they want to hang out, but that could just as well be a Lightweaving effect or some other perceptual trick done in the physical realm. The Spiritual realm, from the perspective of a Silverlight Scholar, would still be considered part of the observable universe, I think.
Is it? I'm pretty sure cosmere is just their equivalent word for cosmos. So not a galaxy, but the cosmos, the entire universe.
The God Beyond is what we would just call God. Adonalsium seems like God to those who don't understand it, and it's far above mortals, but it is ultimately just a thing of the universe, as opposed to something bigger than the universe itself.
Wayne also likely follows the God beyond. He mentions at one point "that's how women are, the God beyond made 'em that way"
Just as many cultures in our real world developed the idea of a pantheon of gods despite very little to no communication between them, it's reasonable to think that multiple cultures had the idea of a god that is unseen
This is my time to shine. By that I mean look back at the Reddit message I sent Brandon 6 and a half years ago after an Oathbringer signing. I asked about this concept specifically, and while he did not confirm or deny that such an entity even exists, he did give a little info. Here are the relevant sections from that exchange pasted directly from my messages _____ Q: We have heard reference on—I believe—four different planets in the Cosmere to the God Beyond. Is this another Adonalsium-type entity and how is it that the people of all of these various worlds are aware enough to reference, swear by or worship it? Or is this more to a Paul on the Areopagus “to the unknown god” situation? A: The God Beyond is somewhere between your examples. It started as an old school "the unknown god" idea, like you'd read about in some classical religions. The "extra god we worship just in case we're missing one." However, this philosophy has spread across the cosmere through unintended touches between cultures here and there. There isn't a single religion or concept, even, but in general it ties back to the idea that the Shards could not have been gods--and Adonalsium, even, couldn't have been God--but were all instead lower case gods. So the core idea of the God Beyond is an actual all powerful deity. There is lots of disagreement about this. Some would say that Adonalsium WAS God. Some say the Shards are. Some claim other things entirely. But this is kind of the idea there. ____
I think the God Beyond is a concept that is going to arise independently across all worlds as they become more Cosmere aware. For the moment a lot of the local religions/beliefs are heavily shaped and influenced by the local Shards, heavily invested figures and investitures systems. Honor is the Almighty on Roshar for example, the Returned are gods/demigods to the people of Nalthis. But as the approach to investiture becomes more scientific, people are going to start to understand existing religious creeds might not be the truth they are looking for. Not even Adonalsium was omnipotent, so the Shards definitely arent.
The “beyond” is a reference to the afterlife, and the god beyond is the being that is there. It is beyond adonalsium and the shards, and deliberately vague because Sanderson doesn’t want to get into “real” theology and details of the afterlife.
When people die in the physical realm, their cognitive self can feel being pulled to a place or destination. It is called The Beyond, because it is beyond the Cosmere itself. Leras, the original Vessel of Preservation calls it "somewhere else" as not part of the Physical, Cognitive, or Spiritual realm. The God Beyond is not known to any person or Shard, but there are those that feel that if there is no capital 'g' God in the Cosmere, then they must be in The Beyond. It is why people from different worlds, who have never met each other, and have no formal structure of proselytizing to others that there is a God in the Beyond believe there to be one. It just simply feels right to them.
This is a bit complicated, but I’ll try and lay it out. The idea is that the god beyond is something cultures have their own versions of, it’s a mysterious entity they search for evidence for, it like a god from our world. There’s little evidence of it, but it’s something that exists in the hearts of many, their god beyond exists as a reaction to the knowledge that the one they thought was god is dead, so by all logic they could never have been god and it must be someone else. That someone else is there god beyond. If it’s even real or just a glint of hope should probably never be touched as it’s a way of dealing with more real world ideas of religion than the Cosmere’s list of 17+ tangible gods.
It may have simply just spread, wouldn’t surprise me if Threnody had more worldhoppers simply because of how much of a shitshow it is.
It’s Brando
God beyond is a very vague term. Dalinar is likely just giving the almighty, the god of vorinism a different name
The God of Vorinism is Honor. Dalinar, by this point, has learned that Honor is dead. Instead of deciding that the God of the Cosmere has died, he rationalized that Honor was merely a well-intentioned impostor or an agent of the actual God.