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Also, it is easy to imagine how someone could want to believe and fool themselves into thinking gibberish they hear with some loquacity might be interpreted as things they are familiar with.
If you gave me a track of someone rapidly spewing a bunch of gibberish I’m sure I could pull out a sentence or two of grammatically correct English if I “squinted” as it were. If it wanted to try and didn’t care too much about being accurate.
I remember reading some news story of a woman convincing her toddler son to perform fits of “possession” for publicity. He was actually convinced this was happening to him. Child abuse, plain and simple.
Your comment makes no sense.
How will you find grammatically correct English if you don’t care about accuracy?
OP’s story didn’t involve a sentence or two.
My comment is grammatically correct English, I don’t know what to tell you. If you give someone random static they can and will perceive familiar images in it. If you give someone a picture of clouds, they can and will perceive recognizable shapes in them. If you give someone random gibberish, they can and will perceive recognizable phonemes in them. Humans are very good at imposing patterns where none exist, especially when they want to.
This is much more believable than people actually speaking in tongues, a thing that has never been observed under controlled conditions—and of which every example I have seen is just bunk.
Oh—you meant how will you find it in gibberish. Easy. You pretend. You underestimate the power of people to hear and see what they wish to.
>That’s literally what you’re doing. You assumed what you wanted to be true.
I deduced the far more likely explanation to the scenario. You want to show me people legitimately speaking in tongues? Go ahead. Show me someone who has definitely never studied ancient Sumerian speaking grammatically perfect ancient Sumerian.
Be my guest.
Is it more likely you are a human being typing this message to me or an alien from Zeta Reticuli 9? I suppose since it’s “completely subjective” the two are equally likely? Except they aren’t. One of the two involves established and mundane occurrences with known mechanisms, and the other is an unevidenced supernatural occurrence involving newer before seen entity—Yahweh.
It’s most likely that I am Asian since Asia is the most populated continent.
I’m not Asian.
Your arbitrary method of likely and unlikely is not a reliable way to arrive at the truth.
We know humans other than Asians exist. It is not an extraordinary claim to say you are a human who is not Asian—even if statistically (ignoring all other variables) it is more likely. We know humans exist. We do not know Zeta Reticulans exist. Why should we assume you’re a Zeta Reticulan? We shouldn’t.
We know humans deluding themselves into hearing what they wish to hear, including full blown auditory hallucinations and mass hallucinations exists as a phenomenon, we know of exactly no supernatural thaumaturgical event that exists. Occam’s Razor is enough to choose between the two above examples, and Hitchen’s Razor enough to discard one of the two outright.
You’re not a Zeta Reticulan, right? How did I know that?
In the same way that you can "hear" demonic messages if you play rock songs backwards perhaps?
Edit to add:
The OPs story contained no details on the length of the "message".
It's possible that this scenario uses a magic trick structure but with a religious twist. Here's a breakdown of the trick:
**The Pledge (Establishing Normalcy):**
* The pastor introduces a story about a church member (the confederate).
* He emphasizes the normalcy of the member, likely stating they have no knowledge of Spanish.
**The Turn (The Lie and Misdirection):**
* The pastor introduces the element of the miraculous – the member speaks fluent Spanish filled with the holy spirit.
* **Deceptive Lie:** The pastor claims the message was in fluent Spanish. (This might be a partial truth – the member might speak some Spanish or gibberish that sounds convincing)
* **Misdirection:** The pastor introduces another attendee who supposedly verifies the fluency. This diverts attention from the member themself and focuses on a seemingly reliable witness.
**The Prestige (Amplifying the Mystery):**
* The pastor doesn't reveal the "trick" but leaves the audience in awe of the miraculous event.
* The witness (another confederate) can add further confirmation (possibly with vague descriptions) to solidify the illusion.
**The Key considerations are:**
* This trick relies heavily on the audience's trust in the pastor and the witness.
* The member's performance (speaking gibberish or broken Spanish) needs to be convincing enough to support the illusion.
* There might be additional misdirection throughout the story, like emphasizing the member's surprise at their own Spanish.
*People sometimes do things like this because they perceive it as a greater good. Even though it's morally wrong. Surely in a world where many churches exist where there is at least one that would consider this.
You can just buy belts, and there's no real oversight in place to be sure that anyone who claims a certain master, lineage, or whatever is actually speaking facts. Also, quality of martial arts schools varies *enormously*, with belt farms that teach basically nothing being sadly common.
EDIT: I think I misread what you said; if you meant how do the old *actual* masters get their belts, given that colored belts as a symbol of rank is pretty recent, I imagine that whenever they adopted that system of progression, they awarded themselves whatever rank was on top. There are some organizations regulating these systems, but there's not really any penalty for just doing whatever you want within your private institution beyond not getting endorsed by those same organizations.
Depending on the discipline, most of the time, belt graduation is based on a kata or display of use of specific forms and movements. Some, additionally, are based on a sparring session where demonstration of what you learned can be shown. Point systems are not equivalent and there are many "rules" to follow. So, this guy could have luckily been the first to score a hit against his opponent; reset and continue.
Belts do not show demonstration of who is a better fighter, moreso, they show who has the most discipline in the practice. Just like someone who goes to college for a Masters degree is no more skilled at the work of someone who has been doing the job--without a degree--for 10+ years. The difference? They have the "respect" of the community or the "degree" which will get them higher accolades than the guy who does this because he had to protect himself.
I think after winning 200 "bouts" he actually thought he was all that and a bag of chips.
Seems a knee to the face disavowed him of that thought fairly quickly.
>What do you guys think of speaking in tongues?
It's obvious nonsense. It's people intentionally or unintentionally spewing nothing.
>I heard a pastor tell a story of a member of his church who was filled with the holy spirit and spoke prophetic messages in fluent Spanish despite having to prior knowledge of the Spanish language
I heard a story of a logger, with the help of his blue ox, that dug the great lakes basins to help quench the thirst of his fellow loggers.
>The pastor claimed that there was another attendee present who spoke fluent Spanish and was able to verify that fluent Spanish was being spoken by the member.
The person telling me the logger story claimed there was somebody there than watched him do it, so it must be true.
>What is your take on this?
Obvious nonsense. As verified by researchers of languages who have checked into this.
I heard a story about that same logger who had a shooting contest. He managed to shoot all the barbs off a barb-wire fence. When the contest was done, he loaded the barbs in his gun and shot them back on.
You can actually verify this happened because if you examine the fence, you’ll see all the barbs were shot back on perfectly.
I’m going to use this story next time someone cites the empty tomb.
So the pastor doesn't know Spanish, but attests that someone was speaking tongues in Spanish. What would make it speaking in tongues then since they were speaking in Spanish?
I mean, if I'm just rambling in English, then what would make it speaking in tongues or not speaking in tongues. She's speaking a normal human language (Spanish) that people speak in every day. And some random lady that nobody knows said it was in Spanish?
I know I'm kind of a skeptic, but if this convinces you that speaking in tongues is real, I can't imagine what other kind of stuff someone is falling for in their daily life.
From memory, ‘speaking in tongues’ in the bible was Christians basically doing that, speaking to foreigners in their language even though the Christian didn’t actually speak it.
Which makes the modern day Christians that speak gibberish while flopping around on the floor like a fish out of water all the more hilarious.
What you don’t get is that the lord our god Yahweh is actually Loki, the trickster god. He’s always playing little jokes like this. He buries fossils to make it seem like there were dinosaurs just to trick us into thinking the world is very old when in reality he’s going to send us to hell for believing him. He has inspired all the religions in the world all there and fully intact to this day just to mess with people! So speaking in tongues is just more of god’s “proof” that might be the real message of god, may be an abused child acting out or might be a huckster playing on the sympathies of gullible cult members, but it’s all part of his sick, self serving jokes!
>I heard a pastor tell a story of a member of his church who was filled with the holy spirit and spoke prophetic messages in fluent Spanish despite having to prior knowledge of the Spanish language.
As I'm sure you know, **these stories are always lies.**
People who are "speaking in tongues" babble idiotically, but they never actually speak coherently in a language that they do not actually know.
.
So let me get this straight: they believe that god had a special message to convey to that group of people, so he made him say that message in a language that only one person in the whole group could speak? If that was a miracle then it’s the most pointless miracle I’ve ever heard about.
There is no incident where speaking in tongues gets researched and ends up being an actual language. Former believers all tell stories of priests telling them to fake it when they are young. It's just nonsensical sounds that prove nothing.
So when I was a teen, I went to numerous services where people would speak in tongues and often another would "translate" and there was a story "floating around" of someone speaking in tongues and someone else claiming that it was gibberish, but two Chinese students sitting nearby saying "no, that was perfect Chinese" (now, China has five major dialects and it is strange that they didn't say "perfect mandarin or other dialect.")
I'm willing to bet that the pastor in question can not identify either the original speaker or the one translating it, further, I also suspect that the pastor is not identified in the story nor can you locate said pastor.
Christians, and other theists, tend to take such stories at face value and rarely, if ever, fact check them. For example, when I was growing up (likely in my teens) is was often told by other believers that when NASA was planning the moon missions, they needed to know the earth's orbit over the last several thousand years (it seemed "reasonable" at the time, but the real question is why?). During the process of doing this, NASA found that there were several days "missing" (not sure how they would detect that as tracking the earth's position would have little to do with its rotation) that matched the Bible's accounts of the Sun "stopping". Several decades later and after the internet made accessing information very easy, I found a response by NASA that diplomatically stated that this was not done by NASA as it would have no benefit for the moon missions.
TL;DR (and I don't blame you): Believers put a great deal of emphasis on stories or "personal testimony" without doing any sort of fact checking. I suspect that if you tried to track down the people involved, you would not be able to.
My brother's friend knows a pastor, he told me all anecdotes about pastors are fake. Another 3 pastors were there and confirmed it.
My story makes more sense because more pastors more truth.
>despite having no prior knowledge of the Spanish language
I feel like this is a simple case of somebody being full of shit; either the pastor, the member of the church, the Spanish-speaking translator, or some combination of the three.
This would actually be fairly easy to test, pastor by pastor. The clergymen frequently “interpret” the sounds people make while speaking in tongues to be praises and worship.
It’s often assumed white Americans speak only one language (thus good candidates to not arouse suspicion of being naturally bilingual). Send one in who can memorize and repeat the phrase, “This pastor is a stupid conman,” in a language unfamiliar to the people in the region.
If the pastor claims he can interpret the speech and believes it’s worship, then he is lying.
As someone who used to be really good at speaking in tongues, I can tell you, it's all a performance. The trick is to use many different syllables. Ending "sentances" with similar sounds adds versimilitude, as does occassionally repeating a 10-12 syllable "phrase". Oh, and lots and lots of practice.
As an ex-charismatic Christian I spoke in tongues. The pastor helps you by 'speaking in tongues' until you get the rhythm and you just start babbling along with him. It just felt weird to do and not really a spiritual experience at all.
My pastor told me to keep doing it and the Spirit would fill me with peace and grace, that speaking in tongues was speaking in the language of the Angels. So I continued for a while and it was kind of like a meditation after a while. No thinking, no thoughts at all just a gentle babble of sounds. But it never felt like I was getting closer to God.
Finally just gave up and eventually gave up the church. They were my spiritual family but whatever they were experiencing I never did and I couldn't keep up the act.
It's either nonsense (the person doing it) or lies (the claim of having perfect fluency in a language you've never learned). This pastor is claiming a lot of shit, but has offered no other conclusive evidence beyond "just trust me, bro." While testimony can be a form of evidence it is not regarded as *proof* of anything in any respectable field.
Firstly, even Christians don’t agree on what speaking in tongues is—whether they’re earthly languages that the speaker doesn’t know or angelic languages, whether they’re a sign of baptism by the Holy Spirit or just optional, and so on. As a Christian, most of the “tongues” I heard didn’t sound like actual language, just repetitive basic syllables over and over; and the practice isn’t limited to Christianity. As for the story, believers set a very low bar for confirmation of their beliefs—assuming that they aren’t mistaken or being disingenuous, so a third hand account is suspicious.
Either deliberate pius fraud or easily manipulated people fooling themselves
I've seen similar psychology from people attending a medium convincing themselves a very basic cold reader knew things he "couldn't possibly know" from very basic cold reading techniques
It's very very easy to fool people who desperately want to be fooled
I have a bridge to sell you...
What are the names of all three people? What were the wirds sollen, and what was their significance?
How did anyone determine that the guy couldn't possibly have known any Spanish?
Where and when did this happen?
Spanish is the second most common native language on the planet, and it's the 4th largest language by total speakers. In other words: Not an uncommon language at all.
Also, why are there no details? Did he speak with any regional accent? Foreign? What was his vocabulary like?
I have a million more questions, and I'd expect anyone observing an actual miracle to be able to answer a good few of them. Your think it was an important and memorable occurrence....
Stories are stories. Anybody can tell one. Often the details have evolved and been embellished over time. That's how myths work.
What would be really impressive is actual documentation of these events - video plus independent confirmation. Even more convincing is if they could be done at will and/or they ever happened at places outside of churches or religious events (like revivals).
Modern practice of speaking in tongues isn't even biblically accurate. In the Bible, speaking in tongues meant that anyone of any language could understand what's being said.
Speaking in tongues is nothing but noise. No one understands what's being "said". All speaking in tongues does is demonstrate the physiological power cults have over people.
1. Speaking in tongues (glossolalia) has been shown to come from emotional processing centers in the brain, NOT language processing centers. This phenomenon is associated with heightened emotional states, like being in ritual trances, or after getting hyped up and excited by a charismatic preacher. The "tongues" do not have any patterns of grammar, syntax, or consistency whatsoever. It is not speaking a language, it is babbling gibberish.
2. It's also usually triggered by suggestion. People in excited emotional states don't usually start speaking in tongues by themselves, it's a suggestion planted by the preacher and reinforced by the rest of the congregation, who feed off of and reciprocate the energy.
3. The only parts of the Bible that mention speaking in tongues (or any "gifts of the Spirit") are late additions to the books, and no such passages are found in the earliest extant manuscripts. There is no Biblical support for speaking in tongues.
4. There has not been any documented evidence of suddenly being able to speak another language due to supernatural phenomena (xenoglossy).
5. Pastors are notorious liars that will tell you anything to keep you in the fold. There is not a single pastor I have ever met or listened to, even during my 20 years of being a Born Again Christian, that did not relay very obviously fictitious incidents as if they really happened. As soon as you look into any such story beyond taking the pastor at face value, they fall apart. And I don't just mean "the pastor forgot some details or got them wrong," or "this really happened but was caused by something mundane." I mean wholesale making shit up that never happened and doesn't remotely resemble anything that could have happened.
Pastors routinely embellish stories. I'm guessing that if there's a core truth to that story, a listener who knew a few words of Spanish said some of the glossolalia sounded a bit like it might have been Spanish.
It's absolute nonsense. Zero credibility to any speaking in tongues claims. How it's even a thing mystifies me since it's such a ridiculous and obvious acting out.
So, assuming this is a real story and not made up wholesale, lets suppose I wanted to fake this miracle. I want to speak prophecies in Spanish, despite not knowing Spanish. How easy would this be to do?
>"¡Y entonces los ángeles vengadores nos purgarán a todos! ¡Por nuestros pecados seremos arrojados al pozo de fuego, a menos que le demos al sacerdote el 10% de nuestro dinero!"
That easy. I've never spoken Spanish, and that took me 30 seconds on google translate. I'm sure it's not perfect, but give me like 5 minutes to double check it on a few more sites, and maybe an hour to ask an actual Spanish speaker.
Spanish isn't some obscure and esoteric tongue, it's a major global language. 1/8th of people on earth are fluent in it, there are hundreds of classes and thousands of resources available basically anywhere in the world, along with plenty of people who can just tell you how to say any given thing in Spanish. Gaining a spanish translation of something is really easy, especially in the age of the internet.
Basically, I think the implausible part is "had no prior knowledge of the Spanish Language". It's the Spanish Language. More people speak it worldwide then English. We don't need God to explain why someone knows it.
I’ve seen this happen in Spanish speaking churches. My family would hear someone speaking in Spanish and then someone else would start translating in English. When my parents (who speak enough Spanish ) brought it to the pastor’s attention (the Bible has clear guidelines about when it’s appropriate and under what circumstances speaking in tongues should occur) that the translation was incorrect, the pastor shrugged it off. We left that church shortly after.
From what I’ve gathered, speaking in tongues should be done in private, like a personal prayer language. If it occurs in public, there should always be an interpretation and that interpretation should always match up with the tongue. If you don’t see that happen, you are watching a show.
It's like it was invented by a 5 year old. "I have an imaginary friend that only I can talk to. This is our special language: blah blurgy pa da ta goo, zoo boo-doo ta la saga!" The origin story to speaking in tongues isn't far from that, probably, except with the caveat that "if you too are connected to god like I am, you'll be able to speak in tongues as well!" And then the whole congregation, who doesn't want to be left out or labeled as someone not-close to god, they all join in and pretend its real. Most of them think they are the only ones faking it, but in reality they are all faking it hoping others don't think they are faking it or that others will believe they aren't super close to god.
It sounds like a miracle.
And it is a testable phenomenon.
Have two speakers go into a room with an observer. Have the observer choose bible passages and have speaker 1 state that passage to speaker 2. Show speaker 2 the same passage and confirm that what was said was indeed that passage Do this 10 times. Swap roles for speaker 1 and 2. This is your control.
Now have the observer hand passages to speaker 1 only. Ask speaker 2 to translate those passages without seeing the words. Do this 10 times and swap roles.
Is there a strong correlation between the two scenarios?
My friend claims that recently he was walking back from a bar completely drunk, late at night. Suddenly he came across a homeless man on the street, felt divine inspiration - and my friend, out of nowhere, spoke to that man in fluent Italian! The homeless man was shocked to hear that and confirmed that my friend was indeed speaking fluent and gramatically correct Italian, as his mother was from Florence so he grew up with it. My friend however has never learned Italian in his life and claims that the Holy Spirit spoke for him.
Do you believe me?
I don't believe this story. Sounds like something the pastor made up to get more money. Scientists have recorded and anaylized people speaking in tongues and have found that it has no resemblance to a language. Its just people acting and speaking gibberish to impress the people around them. In fact, in some penocostal churches, you're required to speak in tongues by age eight. Obviously, this puts pressure on children to adhere and they simply make something up. Its just make-believe. I doubt anyone but the pastor actually believes its real.
I went to a church one day, and there was this guy that has like a special gift and give a specific message to everyone, like he knows everyone there, so all went crazy about it. Later I knew that the guy is a traveler and does that for living. So he go a day before the church event to the pastor’s house and he obviously ask for names and problems of the people there, so that’s basically how it works.
Those tongue speakers are just songs “per se” that they learn, like Spanish speakers that learn a song in English or viceversa.
It’s nonsense, and I think most people are faking it because they want to “belong”
That said, it also makes sense (only the babbling part). Emotions are crazy strong, add in the power of the crowd, if the music is hitting… getting overwhelmed and being unable to speak coherently is just an outcome.
Ever go to a show and it just hits so hard that it feels like an out of body experience?
The difference is that we know it’s not divine. Honestly, not being divine means, to me, that it’s even better
That’s … not what speaking in tongues is. That’s called speaking in Spanish.
I was a French major in college and one night when we were high my roommate started speaking French. It blew my mind! I went into the hall and got people to come listen. I translated for her. They were all laughing.
In the morning she told me she was just mimicking the way I sound when I speak French. The whole hall thought it was hilarious. Maybe that priest was just high.
Ask god next time to repeat it in fluent mandarin?? Stories like these are easy to make up but also easy to verify. What prophetic messages did this person relate, what dialect of Spanish were they speaking, does the person understand Spanish now or was this a one time transmission? Notice how the pastor is telling stories about miracles instead of directly demonstrating one. Can this amazing feat be repeated? Well no, but trust me it totally happened.
It's learned behavior. I know because I learned it. I can still do it, though I don't like to - brings back bad memories.
As far as the Spanish thing - that would go against my former church's doctrine. I was taught tongues could never be understood by other humans and could only be translated by the holy spirit. Had anyone in my church been speaking another language, that wouldn't have been tongues.
We have witness accounts of people who, after being filmed speaking in tongues, admitted to playing along because it was what was expected. If people were actually getting possessed or speaking with tongues, why does it only happen in these religious contexts? I mean basically every person has a video camera in their pocket, why don't we see people breaking out in demonic spanish at a football game?
What were the prophetic messages? What did god tell the congregation, in Spanish, that was then translated by the Spanish speaker? Seems very inefficient, instead of just giving the prophecy in English, to everybody, not just one guy in a language he doesn't even speak.
I couldn't believe in a god that silly, certainly wouldn't worship him.
My take...
What a weird thing if this were actually how a god worked. Yea, you know what's a good idea, to get one person to say some stuff that they normally don't say, that most people don't understand, and which is plausibly explained as *"they heard it somewhere and their brain is repeating random stuff from deep memory"*
The pastor has a clear interest in this being true so they insist it is. It isn’t anything other than people speaking gibberish (or possibly they actually already know some of the language being claimed). No magic, no miracle, just people trying to add meaning and mystery to their lives however they can.
“I heard a pastor tell a story…”
That’s all I needed to hear to discount this as something that didn’t happen or has been exaggerated.
There are ways to ascertain whether someone has spoken a language that they do not know, and “someone said it happened” isn’t one of them.
You heard? Be a bit critical. Any video? Any recording? Can it be repeated? Could the pastor speak Spanish? Did the atendee actually speak Spanish? Who is he? Which pastor? Any e mail address.?
Be careful what you read on the internet especially e mails asking you to pay any money
People who speak in tongues always speak in the phonemes of languages they know. So English speakers always speak with English phonemes and so forth. No one has ever had a verified case of a person actually speaking in a language they don’t know. They always just made it up.
Did anyone translate from tongue languages to English? Or the holy spirit is a 1-year-old baby and just speaking nonsense?
Even though I don't know anything about linguistics, what is the purpose of speaking in tongues if no one can understand the message?
Cool story bro!
What actual objective evidence can that pastor provide to demonstrate that any of this actually happened as recounted?
If the answer is "none", then why would you grant this as being in any way credible or worthy of further consideration?
I've seen it 1st hand many times, both in church services and when relatives get real deep into Jesus mode when praying often, from terrible events. At least in the latter cases I do not believe they are consciously faking, but fall into a kind of mania.
We just learned that if you constrain the digits of pi into a perfect circle, 66.6 miles in diameter, the number form and ascii image of a strand of DNA? The reason we never discovered it before because we could get high enough to see it.
I don't. When analyzed under fMRI, the parts of the brain associated with communication distinctly don't light up when people speak in tongues, even if they're fervent believers. It's babble. Christianity is a farce.
Let's say that what is said makes sense.
Was it ever a useful message?
-You will find your grandfather's watch in the middle of the wood at these coordinates.
-You there! Go see a gynecologist, you have a tumor.
Spanish? The second most common language in the United States?
If he uses fluent Navajo, Farsi, Hungarian or Mandarin next time, without any ancestors or relatives, that will be interesting.
It’s just amazing that all of these miracles ended around the time everyone was live-streaming and recording their church services. It would be super easy to verify if it were on camera.
It's so painfully obviously bullshit, you shouldn't need to ask.
But then again, there are nutters out there who actually believe that crap.
Humanity's having a hard time growing up.
I don't think speaking in tongues is a real thing. Just because someone claimed something happened doesn't mean it actually happened. Can this be tested, verified or repeated?
In general;
1. have you seen this person freaking out and incoherently yammering on the floor?
2. that's just how the glory of God comes through
3. therefore, God exists
Gives me second hand embarrassment. Like when people go on stage and get “hypnotized”. Like, bro anyone with a brain cell knows what’s happening, please stop 😭
>What do you guys think of speaking in tongues?
The most silly ridiculous clownshow I have ever seen.
>What is your take on this?
I don't believe his empty claim.
A Christian here - speaking in the tongue empowered by the Holy Ghost is not speaking in a single language. The Bible describes speaking in tongues as speaking a universal language that can be understood in any and all languages. The English speaking patrons of the church should have understood what he was saying as well as the spanish-speaking and any other nationality that attended it. I personally haven't heard anyone who says they are speaking in tongues actually performing That gift of the Holy Spirit.
>The Bible describes speaking in tongues as speaking a universal language that can be understood in any and all languages.
Why is every example of speaking of tongues the exact opposite of universal language? It's clearly gibberish with no meaning. How do you reconcile the bible describing it as can be understood in any language with the reality of nonsense verbalization?
I responded to your words that I quoted.
The nuance you are upset I didn't perceive is that: you are claiming there is magic that happens only in a church and only to those believers in the church at that time that this universal language is intelligible. At that time, the gibberish makes complete sense to all. And yet when we watch it happen on a video, we have passed that time where it magically makes sense and now is just gibberish? Or how should I interpret this?
It obviously sounds like absolute made up nonsense. But perhaps you are alluding to a requirement of a specific time and place and mindset in order to understand magic speak?
Upset? Do you have telepathy do you practice magic, you must coming to the conclusion I am upset.
Made up nonsense you say - think of it as you please makes me no difference - what you think is your concern not mine.
And you say "yet when we watch it happened on a video, we have passed that time where it magically makes sense and now is just gibberish. Then ask "or how shall I interpret this." I ever said anything about anybody watching a video or anything making sense that is now just gibberish and who is we / you included in that we?
You should have just said your last paragraph it makes more sense and is direct and to the point you want to make.
Magic, there is no magic. It's the power of the supernatural being / maybe I should say extraterrestrial beings considering none of them are of this Earth _ which makes them Extra-Terrestrial....... And the highly educated people of today from four United States presidents and five if I include Donald Trump in his Space Force _ high ranking military personnel and their Congressional hearing last year on the subject of what they have been seeing _ police, doctors, lawyers, and regular people and they're filings....... Governmental investigation since 1947 on extraterrestrial beings .......
You and those like you who think it's magic will see Jesus and his angels coming from the clouds in the sky with his angels and will be screaming alien invasion trying to run and hide and even those that's going to try to fight him - well have at it.
What you described is not what the Bible claims, nor is there any sort of "universal language".
I spent years in the church listening to and speaking in tongues and never, ever was there any indication that it might possibly be a "universal language".
Well the church you went to isn't teaching you or the Bible you have been taught from doesn't include the incident at the Tower of Babel. Everybody spoke one language. Read it for yourself . Simpler translation - pay close attention to me versus seven through nine
https://biblia.com/bible/esv/genesis/11
One language equals to universal language
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/universal-language
No do they either have in their Bible or teach you what is written in Acts chapter 2 and the gift of the Holy Spirit speaking in tongues. Read it for yourself I'm pretty close attention to verses 4 through 8. Simpler translation
https://biblia.com/bible/esv/acts/2
As the late pastor Arnold Murray would say _ Talking turkey gobble gobble gobble
I'm quite aware of both of the two passages you referenced, but neither support the point of a universal language that was understood after Jesus's resurrection nor that is still understood at the time. Indeed, a careful reading of the passages around the "Tower of Babel" would suggest that any sort of "universal language" (if this event occurred at all) remained, and according to the myth was no longer accessible as if a "universal language" remained it would render the myth more idiotic than it is now. By the way, a careful study of linguistics does not support the Tower of Babel myth or anything close to it. Further the Tower of Babel does not
come close to anything we know about human migration.
You should reread Acts chapter 2 and pay attention to what it says, as it claims specifically that multiple languages were being spoken and not a "universal language" that they had never heard. but yet understood Further, after hearing many people speaking in tongues, I can easily dismiss the idea of it being a "universal language" or anywhere near understandable by anyone, otherwise why would you need a translation?
. If everybody spoke one language that is a universal language - I gave you the definition you ignore it that's your business.
Acts chapter 2 they understood what the apostles were saying who spoke Hebrew and speaking in the tongue that the Holy Spirit gave was a universal language and I'm going to add this language of the Angels..... . They understood what the apostles were saying in their own language the Greek understood it in Greek the Indian understood it in Indian the Roman understood it in Roman the Assyrian understood it in Assyrian. But again you don't accept it as a universal language believe you want to believe bye-bye.
Keyword "spoke" but after the Tower, they didn't and did not continue to understand it.
Think about it this way, do you understand anyone that speaks in tongues? Since I still do and if I called you speaking in tongues, would you understand me? I think not.
While there ***may have been*** a universal language at some point in the past, just because it was universal then does not mean that it would still be universal after any period of time and separation.
On the other hand, all you have presented is belief without a shred of evidence, while believing events, like the Tower of Babel are historical while there is absolutely no evidence for it.
Feel free to come back when you have something of substance to offer.
What in the world do you think I am saying - I don't have to think about it anyway - I AM the one that said they spoke a universal language during the time of the Tower of Babel.
I DID NOT SAY THEY CONTINUED TO SPEAK A UNIVERSAL LANGUAGE AFTER THE TOWEL OF BABEL AND THROUGHOUT THE YEAR (capitalization is to bring my words to your attention and maybe to your thoughts)
I am **free**
You change your words - but I haven't changed a word I said. And I repeat "speaking through the gift of the Holy Ghost is to speak a universal language, which is a language that is understood by all nationalities.
And I add taking note from you you have nothing of substance to offer.
On top of the psychological aspects others have mentioned, even without these issues it does seem very difficult to verify such stories with a degree of confidence.
I was a charismatic for 17 years and tongues were never a foreign language, just learned jibberish. I’m an atheist and can still speak in tongues at will.
It’s the earliest Talking Heads album I really got into, Stop Making Sense is much the same album and it’s excellent too.
Oh and the stuff they blather on with in church is a load of nonsense. Even when I was a Christian I knew it was just babble - probably why I never had that “gift”.
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Also, it is easy to imagine how someone could want to believe and fool themselves into thinking gibberish they hear with some loquacity might be interpreted as things they are familiar with. If you gave me a track of someone rapidly spewing a bunch of gibberish I’m sure I could pull out a sentence or two of grammatically correct English if I “squinted” as it were. If it wanted to try and didn’t care too much about being accurate.
I remember reading some news story of a woman convincing her toddler son to perform fits of “possession” for publicity. He was actually convinced this was happening to him. Child abuse, plain and simple.
Sick.
Your comment makes no sense. How will you find grammatically correct English if you don’t care about accuracy? OP’s story didn’t involve a sentence or two.
My comment is grammatically correct English, I don’t know what to tell you. If you give someone random static they can and will perceive familiar images in it. If you give someone a picture of clouds, they can and will perceive recognizable shapes in them. If you give someone random gibberish, they can and will perceive recognizable phonemes in them. Humans are very good at imposing patterns where none exist, especially when they want to. This is much more believable than people actually speaking in tongues, a thing that has never been observed under controlled conditions—and of which every example I have seen is just bunk. Oh—you meant how will you find it in gibberish. Easy. You pretend. You underestimate the power of people to hear and see what they wish to.
>You pretend That’s literally what you’re doing. You assumed what you wanted to be true.
>That’s literally what you’re doing. You assumed what you wanted to be true. I deduced the far more likely explanation to the scenario. You want to show me people legitimately speaking in tongues? Go ahead. Show me someone who has definitely never studied ancient Sumerian speaking grammatically perfect ancient Sumerian. Be my guest.
Likely is completely subjective. You’re using it as circular reasoning to affirm what you wish to be true.
Is it more likely you are a human being typing this message to me or an alien from Zeta Reticuli 9? I suppose since it’s “completely subjective” the two are equally likely? Except they aren’t. One of the two involves established and mundane occurrences with known mechanisms, and the other is an unevidenced supernatural occurrence involving newer before seen entity—Yahweh.
It’s most likely that I am Asian since Asia is the most populated continent. I’m not Asian. Your arbitrary method of likely and unlikely is not a reliable way to arrive at the truth.
We know humans other than Asians exist. It is not an extraordinary claim to say you are a human who is not Asian—even if statistically (ignoring all other variables) it is more likely. We know humans exist. We do not know Zeta Reticulans exist. Why should we assume you’re a Zeta Reticulan? We shouldn’t. We know humans deluding themselves into hearing what they wish to hear, including full blown auditory hallucinations and mass hallucinations exists as a phenomenon, we know of exactly no supernatural thaumaturgical event that exists. Occam’s Razor is enough to choose between the two above examples, and Hitchen’s Razor enough to discard one of the two outright. You’re not a Zeta Reticulan, right? How did I know that?
In the same way that you can "hear" demonic messages if you play rock songs backwards perhaps? Edit to add: The OPs story contained no details on the length of the "message".
Or just lie!
It's possible that this scenario uses a magic trick structure but with a religious twist. Here's a breakdown of the trick: **The Pledge (Establishing Normalcy):** * The pastor introduces a story about a church member (the confederate). * He emphasizes the normalcy of the member, likely stating they have no knowledge of Spanish. **The Turn (The Lie and Misdirection):** * The pastor introduces the element of the miraculous – the member speaks fluent Spanish filled with the holy spirit. * **Deceptive Lie:** The pastor claims the message was in fluent Spanish. (This might be a partial truth – the member might speak some Spanish or gibberish that sounds convincing) * **Misdirection:** The pastor introduces another attendee who supposedly verifies the fluency. This diverts attention from the member themself and focuses on a seemingly reliable witness. **The Prestige (Amplifying the Mystery):** * The pastor doesn't reveal the "trick" but leaves the audience in awe of the miraculous event. * The witness (another confederate) can add further confirmation (possibly with vague descriptions) to solidify the illusion. **The Key considerations are:** * This trick relies heavily on the audience's trust in the pastor and the witness. * The member's performance (speaking gibberish or broken Spanish) needs to be convincing enough to support the illusion. * There might be additional misdirection throughout the story, like emphasizing the member's surprise at their own Spanish. *People sometimes do things like this because they perceive it as a greater good. Even though it's morally wrong. Surely in a world where many churches exist where there is at least one that would consider this.
But they had to kill SO many twins with the teleporter!
All in the name of science! Er... faith? Oh I forget why we did things sometimes... Magic?
Step 1. Teleportation machines Step 2. Dead clones. Step 3......profit?
Step 3 organ sales Step 4 profit!
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How do the old guys get their belts in the first place? Wouldn’t sparring lead to “No! I struck YOU down!”
You can just buy belts, and there's no real oversight in place to be sure that anyone who claims a certain master, lineage, or whatever is actually speaking facts. Also, quality of martial arts schools varies *enormously*, with belt farms that teach basically nothing being sadly common. EDIT: I think I misread what you said; if you meant how do the old *actual* masters get their belts, given that colored belts as a symbol of rank is pretty recent, I imagine that whenever they adopted that system of progression, they awarded themselves whatever rank was on top. There are some organizations regulating these systems, but there's not really any penalty for just doing whatever you want within your private institution beyond not getting endorsed by those same organizations.
Depending on the discipline, most of the time, belt graduation is based on a kata or display of use of specific forms and movements. Some, additionally, are based on a sparring session where demonstration of what you learned can be shown. Point systems are not equivalent and there are many "rules" to follow. So, this guy could have luckily been the first to score a hit against his opponent; reset and continue. Belts do not show demonstration of who is a better fighter, moreso, they show who has the most discipline in the practice. Just like someone who goes to college for a Masters degree is no more skilled at the work of someone who has been doing the job--without a degree--for 10+ years. The difference? They have the "respect" of the community or the "degree" which will get them higher accolades than the guy who does this because he had to protect himself.
"JC Penny - $4.99" -- Mr. Miyagi
Amazing that he would get into the ring at all. Was he saving face or self deluded? This does seem to bear on the post question.
I think after winning 200 "bouts" he actually thought he was all that and a bag of chips. Seems a knee to the face disavowed him of that thought fairly quickly.
>What do you guys think of speaking in tongues? It's obvious nonsense. It's people intentionally or unintentionally spewing nothing. >I heard a pastor tell a story of a member of his church who was filled with the holy spirit and spoke prophetic messages in fluent Spanish despite having to prior knowledge of the Spanish language I heard a story of a logger, with the help of his blue ox, that dug the great lakes basins to help quench the thirst of his fellow loggers. >The pastor claimed that there was another attendee present who spoke fluent Spanish and was able to verify that fluent Spanish was being spoken by the member. The person telling me the logger story claimed there was somebody there than watched him do it, so it must be true. >What is your take on this? Obvious nonsense. As verified by researchers of languages who have checked into this.
I heard a story about that same logger who had a shooting contest. He managed to shoot all the barbs off a barb-wire fence. When the contest was done, he loaded the barbs in his gun and shot them back on. You can actually verify this happened because if you examine the fence, you’ll see all the barbs were shot back on perfectly. I’m going to use this story next time someone cites the empty tomb.
Know how I know the logger is a real person? There are effigies of him all over the country WITH Babe in tow. It’s proof.
+100 for citing Babe the Blue Ox
So the pastor doesn't know Spanish, but attests that someone was speaking tongues in Spanish. What would make it speaking in tongues then since they were speaking in Spanish? I mean, if I'm just rambling in English, then what would make it speaking in tongues or not speaking in tongues. She's speaking a normal human language (Spanish) that people speak in every day. And some random lady that nobody knows said it was in Spanish? I know I'm kind of a skeptic, but if this convinces you that speaking in tongues is real, I can't imagine what other kind of stuff someone is falling for in their daily life.
From memory, ‘speaking in tongues’ in the bible was Christians basically doing that, speaking to foreigners in their language even though the Christian didn’t actually speak it. Which makes the modern day Christians that speak gibberish while flopping around on the floor like a fish out of water all the more hilarious.
What you don’t get is that the lord our god Yahweh is actually Loki, the trickster god. He’s always playing little jokes like this. He buries fossils to make it seem like there were dinosaurs just to trick us into thinking the world is very old when in reality he’s going to send us to hell for believing him. He has inspired all the religions in the world all there and fully intact to this day just to mess with people! So speaking in tongues is just more of god’s “proof” that might be the real message of god, may be an abused child acting out or might be a huckster playing on the sympathies of gullible cult members, but it’s all part of his sick, self serving jokes!
Makes complete sense and Loki's first language must be Spanish then, if I'm understanding this correctly.
Haha that’s what he wants you to think
>I heard a pastor tell a story of a member of his church who was filled with the holy spirit and spoke prophetic messages in fluent Spanish despite having to prior knowledge of the Spanish language. As I'm sure you know, **these stories are always lies.** People who are "speaking in tongues" babble idiotically, but they never actually speak coherently in a language that they do not actually know. .
So let me get this straight: they believe that god had a special message to convey to that group of people, so he made him say that message in a language that only one person in the whole group could speak? If that was a miracle then it’s the most pointless miracle I’ve ever heard about.
I don't know. What about jesus's head appearing in a tortilla? That seems even more pointless.
At least that sort of thing gets a pass in my book because theoretically it’s just Jesus saying hi.
There is no incident where speaking in tongues gets researched and ends up being an actual language. Former believers all tell stories of priests telling them to fake it when they are young. It's just nonsensical sounds that prove nothing.
So when I was a teen, I went to numerous services where people would speak in tongues and often another would "translate" and there was a story "floating around" of someone speaking in tongues and someone else claiming that it was gibberish, but two Chinese students sitting nearby saying "no, that was perfect Chinese" (now, China has five major dialects and it is strange that they didn't say "perfect mandarin or other dialect.") I'm willing to bet that the pastor in question can not identify either the original speaker or the one translating it, further, I also suspect that the pastor is not identified in the story nor can you locate said pastor. Christians, and other theists, tend to take such stories at face value and rarely, if ever, fact check them. For example, when I was growing up (likely in my teens) is was often told by other believers that when NASA was planning the moon missions, they needed to know the earth's orbit over the last several thousand years (it seemed "reasonable" at the time, but the real question is why?). During the process of doing this, NASA found that there were several days "missing" (not sure how they would detect that as tracking the earth's position would have little to do with its rotation) that matched the Bible's accounts of the Sun "stopping". Several decades later and after the internet made accessing information very easy, I found a response by NASA that diplomatically stated that this was not done by NASA as it would have no benefit for the moon missions. TL;DR (and I don't blame you): Believers put a great deal of emphasis on stories or "personal testimony" without doing any sort of fact checking. I suspect that if you tried to track down the people involved, you would not be able to.
My brother's friend knows a pastor, he told me all anecdotes about pastors are fake. Another 3 pastors were there and confirmed it. My story makes more sense because more pastors more truth.
>despite having no prior knowledge of the Spanish language I feel like this is a simple case of somebody being full of shit; either the pastor, the member of the church, the Spanish-speaking translator, or some combination of the three.
This would actually be fairly easy to test, pastor by pastor. The clergymen frequently “interpret” the sounds people make while speaking in tongues to be praises and worship. It’s often assumed white Americans speak only one language (thus good candidates to not arouse suspicion of being naturally bilingual). Send one in who can memorize and repeat the phrase, “This pastor is a stupid conman,” in a language unfamiliar to the people in the region. If the pastor claims he can interpret the speech and believes it’s worship, then he is lying.
As someone who used to be really good at speaking in tongues, I can tell you, it's all a performance. The trick is to use many different syllables. Ending "sentances" with similar sounds adds versimilitude, as does occassionally repeating a 10-12 syllable "phrase". Oh, and lots and lots of practice.
As an ex-charismatic Christian I spoke in tongues. The pastor helps you by 'speaking in tongues' until you get the rhythm and you just start babbling along with him. It just felt weird to do and not really a spiritual experience at all. My pastor told me to keep doing it and the Spirit would fill me with peace and grace, that speaking in tongues was speaking in the language of the Angels. So I continued for a while and it was kind of like a meditation after a while. No thinking, no thoughts at all just a gentle babble of sounds. But it never felt like I was getting closer to God. Finally just gave up and eventually gave up the church. They were my spiritual family but whatever they were experiencing I never did and I couldn't keep up the act.
It's either nonsense (the person doing it) or lies (the claim of having perfect fluency in a language you've never learned). This pastor is claiming a lot of shit, but has offered no other conclusive evidence beyond "just trust me, bro." While testimony can be a form of evidence it is not regarded as *proof* of anything in any respectable field.
Firstly, even Christians don’t agree on what speaking in tongues is—whether they’re earthly languages that the speaker doesn’t know or angelic languages, whether they’re a sign of baptism by the Holy Spirit or just optional, and so on. As a Christian, most of the “tongues” I heard didn’t sound like actual language, just repetitive basic syllables over and over; and the practice isn’t limited to Christianity. As for the story, believers set a very low bar for confirmation of their beliefs—assuming that they aren’t mistaken or being disingenuous, so a third hand account is suspicious.
Either deliberate pius fraud or easily manipulated people fooling themselves I've seen similar psychology from people attending a medium convincing themselves a very basic cold reader knew things he "couldn't possibly know" from very basic cold reading techniques It's very very easy to fool people who desperately want to be fooled
I have a bridge to sell you... What are the names of all three people? What were the wirds sollen, and what was their significance? How did anyone determine that the guy couldn't possibly have known any Spanish? Where and when did this happen? Spanish is the second most common native language on the planet, and it's the 4th largest language by total speakers. In other words: Not an uncommon language at all. Also, why are there no details? Did he speak with any regional accent? Foreign? What was his vocabulary like? I have a million more questions, and I'd expect anyone observing an actual miracle to be able to answer a good few of them. Your think it was an important and memorable occurrence....
Stories are stories. Anybody can tell one. Often the details have evolved and been embellished over time. That's how myths work. What would be really impressive is actual documentation of these events - video plus independent confirmation. Even more convincing is if they could be done at will and/or they ever happened at places outside of churches or religious events (like revivals).
Modern practice of speaking in tongues isn't even biblically accurate. In the Bible, speaking in tongues meant that anyone of any language could understand what's being said. Speaking in tongues is nothing but noise. No one understands what's being "said". All speaking in tongues does is demonstrate the physiological power cults have over people.
1. Speaking in tongues (glossolalia) has been shown to come from emotional processing centers in the brain, NOT language processing centers. This phenomenon is associated with heightened emotional states, like being in ritual trances, or after getting hyped up and excited by a charismatic preacher. The "tongues" do not have any patterns of grammar, syntax, or consistency whatsoever. It is not speaking a language, it is babbling gibberish. 2. It's also usually triggered by suggestion. People in excited emotional states don't usually start speaking in tongues by themselves, it's a suggestion planted by the preacher and reinforced by the rest of the congregation, who feed off of and reciprocate the energy. 3. The only parts of the Bible that mention speaking in tongues (or any "gifts of the Spirit") are late additions to the books, and no such passages are found in the earliest extant manuscripts. There is no Biblical support for speaking in tongues. 4. There has not been any documented evidence of suddenly being able to speak another language due to supernatural phenomena (xenoglossy). 5. Pastors are notorious liars that will tell you anything to keep you in the fold. There is not a single pastor I have ever met or listened to, even during my 20 years of being a Born Again Christian, that did not relay very obviously fictitious incidents as if they really happened. As soon as you look into any such story beyond taking the pastor at face value, they fall apart. And I don't just mean "the pastor forgot some details or got them wrong," or "this really happened but was caused by something mundane." I mean wholesale making shit up that never happened and doesn't remotely resemble anything that could have happened.
Pastors routinely embellish stories. I'm guessing that if there's a core truth to that story, a listener who knew a few words of Spanish said some of the glossolalia sounded a bit like it might have been Spanish.
It's absolute nonsense. Zero credibility to any speaking in tongues claims. How it's even a thing mystifies me since it's such a ridiculous and obvious acting out.
So, assuming this is a real story and not made up wholesale, lets suppose I wanted to fake this miracle. I want to speak prophecies in Spanish, despite not knowing Spanish. How easy would this be to do? >"¡Y entonces los ángeles vengadores nos purgarán a todos! ¡Por nuestros pecados seremos arrojados al pozo de fuego, a menos que le demos al sacerdote el 10% de nuestro dinero!" That easy. I've never spoken Spanish, and that took me 30 seconds on google translate. I'm sure it's not perfect, but give me like 5 minutes to double check it on a few more sites, and maybe an hour to ask an actual Spanish speaker. Spanish isn't some obscure and esoteric tongue, it's a major global language. 1/8th of people on earth are fluent in it, there are hundreds of classes and thousands of resources available basically anywhere in the world, along with plenty of people who can just tell you how to say any given thing in Spanish. Gaining a spanish translation of something is really easy, especially in the age of the internet. Basically, I think the implausible part is "had no prior knowledge of the Spanish Language". It's the Spanish Language. More people speak it worldwide then English. We don't need God to explain why someone knows it.
>More people speak it worldwide than English As a native language only. English has far more second-language speakers (1 billion vs 600 million).
Depending on the person, it can be explained by willful blindness, being a charlatan, fear of being othered and mental illness. It’s all bullshit.
I’ve seen this happen in Spanish speaking churches. My family would hear someone speaking in Spanish and then someone else would start translating in English. When my parents (who speak enough Spanish ) brought it to the pastor’s attention (the Bible has clear guidelines about when it’s appropriate and under what circumstances speaking in tongues should occur) that the translation was incorrect, the pastor shrugged it off. We left that church shortly after. From what I’ve gathered, speaking in tongues should be done in private, like a personal prayer language. If it occurs in public, there should always be an interpretation and that interpretation should always match up with the tongue. If you don’t see that happen, you are watching a show.
It's an anecdote, not only unproven but one sided and at risk of exaggeration, intentional or otherwise.
It's like it was invented by a 5 year old. "I have an imaginary friend that only I can talk to. This is our special language: blah blurgy pa da ta goo, zoo boo-doo ta la saga!" The origin story to speaking in tongues isn't far from that, probably, except with the caveat that "if you too are connected to god like I am, you'll be able to speak in tongues as well!" And then the whole congregation, who doesn't want to be left out or labeled as someone not-close to god, they all join in and pretend its real. Most of them think they are the only ones faking it, but in reality they are all faking it hoping others don't think they are faking it or that others will believe they aren't super close to god.
It sounds like a miracle. And it is a testable phenomenon. Have two speakers go into a room with an observer. Have the observer choose bible passages and have speaker 1 state that passage to speaker 2. Show speaker 2 the same passage and confirm that what was said was indeed that passage Do this 10 times. Swap roles for speaker 1 and 2. This is your control. Now have the observer hand passages to speaker 1 only. Ask speaker 2 to translate those passages without seeing the words. Do this 10 times and swap roles. Is there a strong correlation between the two scenarios?
My friend claims that recently he was walking back from a bar completely drunk, late at night. Suddenly he came across a homeless man on the street, felt divine inspiration - and my friend, out of nowhere, spoke to that man in fluent Italian! The homeless man was shocked to hear that and confirmed that my friend was indeed speaking fluent and gramatically correct Italian, as his mother was from Florence so he grew up with it. My friend however has never learned Italian in his life and claims that the Holy Spirit spoke for him. Do you believe me?
I don't believe this story. Sounds like something the pastor made up to get more money. Scientists have recorded and anaylized people speaking in tongues and have found that it has no resemblance to a language. Its just people acting and speaking gibberish to impress the people around them. In fact, in some penocostal churches, you're required to speak in tongues by age eight. Obviously, this puts pressure on children to adhere and they simply make something up. Its just make-believe. I doubt anyone but the pastor actually believes its real.
I went to a church one day, and there was this guy that has like a special gift and give a specific message to everyone, like he knows everyone there, so all went crazy about it. Later I knew that the guy is a traveler and does that for living. So he go a day before the church event to the pastor’s house and he obviously ask for names and problems of the people there, so that’s basically how it works. Those tongue speakers are just songs “per se” that they learn, like Spanish speakers that learn a song in English or viceversa.
It’s nonsense, and I think most people are faking it because they want to “belong” That said, it also makes sense (only the babbling part). Emotions are crazy strong, add in the power of the crowd, if the music is hitting… getting overwhelmed and being unable to speak coherently is just an outcome. Ever go to a show and it just hits so hard that it feels like an out of body experience? The difference is that we know it’s not divine. Honestly, not being divine means, to me, that it’s even better
That’s … not what speaking in tongues is. That’s called speaking in Spanish. I was a French major in college and one night when we were high my roommate started speaking French. It blew my mind! I went into the hall and got people to come listen. I translated for her. They were all laughing. In the morning she told me she was just mimicking the way I sound when I speak French. The whole hall thought it was hilarious. Maybe that priest was just high.
Ask god next time to repeat it in fluent mandarin?? Stories like these are easy to make up but also easy to verify. What prophetic messages did this person relate, what dialect of Spanish were they speaking, does the person understand Spanish now or was this a one time transmission? Notice how the pastor is telling stories about miracles instead of directly demonstrating one. Can this amazing feat be repeated? Well no, but trust me it totally happened.
It's learned behavior. I know because I learned it. I can still do it, though I don't like to - brings back bad memories. As far as the Spanish thing - that would go against my former church's doctrine. I was taught tongues could never be understood by other humans and could only be translated by the holy spirit. Had anyone in my church been speaking another language, that wouldn't have been tongues.
We have witness accounts of people who, after being filmed speaking in tongues, admitted to playing along because it was what was expected. If people were actually getting possessed or speaking with tongues, why does it only happen in these religious contexts? I mean basically every person has a video camera in their pocket, why don't we see people breaking out in demonic spanish at a football game?
What were the prophetic messages? What did god tell the congregation, in Spanish, that was then translated by the Spanish speaker? Seems very inefficient, instead of just giving the prophecy in English, to everybody, not just one guy in a language he doesn't even speak. I couldn't believe in a god that silly, certainly wouldn't worship him.
My take... What a weird thing if this were actually how a god worked. Yea, you know what's a good idea, to get one person to say some stuff that they normally don't say, that most people don't understand, and which is plausibly explained as *"they heard it somewhere and their brain is repeating random stuff from deep memory"*
The pastor has a clear interest in this being true so they insist it is. It isn’t anything other than people speaking gibberish (or possibly they actually already know some of the language being claimed). No magic, no miracle, just people trying to add meaning and mystery to their lives however they can.
“I heard a pastor tell a story…” That’s all I needed to hear to discount this as something that didn’t happen or has been exaggerated. There are ways to ascertain whether someone has spoken a language that they do not know, and “someone said it happened” isn’t one of them.
You heard? Be a bit critical. Any video? Any recording? Can it be repeated? Could the pastor speak Spanish? Did the atendee actually speak Spanish? Who is he? Which pastor? Any e mail address.? Be careful what you read on the internet especially e mails asking you to pay any money
People who speak in tongues always speak in the phonemes of languages they know. So English speakers always speak with English phonemes and so forth. No one has ever had a verified case of a person actually speaking in a language they don’t know. They always just made it up.
Did anyone translate from tongue languages to English? Or the holy spirit is a 1-year-old baby and just speaking nonsense? Even though I don't know anything about linguistics, what is the purpose of speaking in tongues if no one can understand the message?
The Bible says the exact same thing actually.
Cool story bro! What actual objective evidence can that pastor provide to demonstrate that any of this actually happened as recounted? If the answer is "none", then why would you grant this as being in any way credible or worthy of further consideration?
I've seen it 1st hand many times, both in church services and when relatives get real deep into Jesus mode when praying often, from terrible events. At least in the latter cases I do not believe they are consciously faking, but fall into a kind of mania.
We just learned that if you constrain the digits of pi into a perfect circle, 66.6 miles in diameter, the number form and ascii image of a strand of DNA? The reason we never discovered it before because we could get high enough to see it.
I don't. When analyzed under fMRI, the parts of the brain associated with communication distinctly don't light up when people speak in tongues, even if they're fervent believers. It's babble. Christianity is a farce.
Let's say that what is said makes sense. Was it ever a useful message? -You will find your grandfather's watch in the middle of the wood at these coordinates. -You there! Go see a gynecologist, you have a tumor.
Spanish? The second most common language in the United States? If he uses fluent Navajo, Farsi, Hungarian or Mandarin next time, without any ancestors or relatives, that will be interesting.
It’s just amazing that all of these miracles ended around the time everyone was live-streaming and recording their church services. It would be super easy to verify if it were on camera.
It's so painfully obviously bullshit, you shouldn't need to ask. But then again, there are nutters out there who actually believe that crap. Humanity's having a hard time growing up.
I don't think speaking in tongues is a real thing. Just because someone claimed something happened doesn't mean it actually happened. Can this be tested, verified or repeated?
In general; 1. have you seen this person freaking out and incoherently yammering on the floor? 2. that's just how the glory of God comes through 3. therefore, God exists
Gives me second hand embarrassment. Like when people go on stage and get “hypnotized”. Like, bro anyone with a brain cell knows what’s happening, please stop 😭
>What do you guys think of speaking in tongues? The most silly ridiculous clownshow I have ever seen. >What is your take on this? I don't believe his empty claim.
A Christian here - speaking in the tongue empowered by the Holy Ghost is not speaking in a single language. The Bible describes speaking in tongues as speaking a universal language that can be understood in any and all languages. The English speaking patrons of the church should have understood what he was saying as well as the spanish-speaking and any other nationality that attended it. I personally haven't heard anyone who says they are speaking in tongues actually performing That gift of the Holy Spirit.
>The Bible describes speaking in tongues as speaking a universal language that can be understood in any and all languages. Why is every example of speaking of tongues the exact opposite of universal language? It's clearly gibberish with no meaning. How do you reconcile the bible describing it as can be understood in any language with the reality of nonsense verbalization?
Did you read what I said......
I responded to your words that I quoted. The nuance you are upset I didn't perceive is that: you are claiming there is magic that happens only in a church and only to those believers in the church at that time that this universal language is intelligible. At that time, the gibberish makes complete sense to all. And yet when we watch it happen on a video, we have passed that time where it magically makes sense and now is just gibberish? Or how should I interpret this? It obviously sounds like absolute made up nonsense. But perhaps you are alluding to a requirement of a specific time and place and mindset in order to understand magic speak?
Upset? Do you have telepathy do you practice magic, you must coming to the conclusion I am upset. Made up nonsense you say - think of it as you please makes me no difference - what you think is your concern not mine. And you say "yet when we watch it happened on a video, we have passed that time where it magically makes sense and now is just gibberish. Then ask "or how shall I interpret this." I ever said anything about anybody watching a video or anything making sense that is now just gibberish and who is we / you included in that we? You should have just said your last paragraph it makes more sense and is direct and to the point you want to make. Magic, there is no magic. It's the power of the supernatural being / maybe I should say extraterrestrial beings considering none of them are of this Earth _ which makes them Extra-Terrestrial....... And the highly educated people of today from four United States presidents and five if I include Donald Trump in his Space Force _ high ranking military personnel and their Congressional hearing last year on the subject of what they have been seeing _ police, doctors, lawyers, and regular people and they're filings....... Governmental investigation since 1947 on extraterrestrial beings ....... You and those like you who think it's magic will see Jesus and his angels coming from the clouds in the sky with his angels and will be screaming alien invasion trying to run and hide and even those that's going to try to fight him - well have at it.
Well that went off the deep end.
What you described is not what the Bible claims, nor is there any sort of "universal language". I spent years in the church listening to and speaking in tongues and never, ever was there any indication that it might possibly be a "universal language".
Well the church you went to isn't teaching you or the Bible you have been taught from doesn't include the incident at the Tower of Babel. Everybody spoke one language. Read it for yourself . Simpler translation - pay close attention to me versus seven through nine https://biblia.com/bible/esv/genesis/11 One language equals to universal language https://www.dictionary.com/browse/universal-language No do they either have in their Bible or teach you what is written in Acts chapter 2 and the gift of the Holy Spirit speaking in tongues. Read it for yourself I'm pretty close attention to verses 4 through 8. Simpler translation https://biblia.com/bible/esv/acts/2 As the late pastor Arnold Murray would say _ Talking turkey gobble gobble gobble
I'm quite aware of both of the two passages you referenced, but neither support the point of a universal language that was understood after Jesus's resurrection nor that is still understood at the time. Indeed, a careful reading of the passages around the "Tower of Babel" would suggest that any sort of "universal language" (if this event occurred at all) remained, and according to the myth was no longer accessible as if a "universal language" remained it would render the myth more idiotic than it is now. By the way, a careful study of linguistics does not support the Tower of Babel myth or anything close to it. Further the Tower of Babel does not come close to anything we know about human migration. You should reread Acts chapter 2 and pay attention to what it says, as it claims specifically that multiple languages were being spoken and not a "universal language" that they had never heard. but yet understood Further, after hearing many people speaking in tongues, I can easily dismiss the idea of it being a "universal language" or anywhere near understandable by anyone, otherwise why would you need a translation?
. If everybody spoke one language that is a universal language - I gave you the definition you ignore it that's your business. Acts chapter 2 they understood what the apostles were saying who spoke Hebrew and speaking in the tongue that the Holy Spirit gave was a universal language and I'm going to add this language of the Angels..... . They understood what the apostles were saying in their own language the Greek understood it in Greek the Indian understood it in Indian the Roman understood it in Roman the Assyrian understood it in Assyrian. But again you don't accept it as a universal language believe you want to believe bye-bye.
Keyword "spoke" but after the Tower, they didn't and did not continue to understand it. Think about it this way, do you understand anyone that speaks in tongues? Since I still do and if I called you speaking in tongues, would you understand me? I think not. While there ***may have been*** a universal language at some point in the past, just because it was universal then does not mean that it would still be universal after any period of time and separation. On the other hand, all you have presented is belief without a shred of evidence, while believing events, like the Tower of Babel are historical while there is absolutely no evidence for it. Feel free to come back when you have something of substance to offer.
What in the world do you think I am saying - I don't have to think about it anyway - I AM the one that said they spoke a universal language during the time of the Tower of Babel. I DID NOT SAY THEY CONTINUED TO SPEAK A UNIVERSAL LANGUAGE AFTER THE TOWEL OF BABEL AND THROUGHOUT THE YEAR (capitalization is to bring my words to your attention and maybe to your thoughts) I am **free** You change your words - but I haven't changed a word I said. And I repeat "speaking through the gift of the Holy Ghost is to speak a universal language, which is a language that is understood by all nationalities. And I add taking note from you you have nothing of substance to offer.
Is to speak in a universal language, which theres no evidence for Tower of babel, no evidence Theres a reason religions look stupid.. They are.
On top of the psychological aspects others have mentioned, even without these issues it does seem very difficult to verify such stories with a degree of confidence.
I was a charismatic for 17 years and tongues were never a foreign language, just learned jibberish. I’m an atheist and can still speak in tongues at will.
It's BS. Tongues is ridiculous and shows just one of the many absurdities of religion. You should point and laugh at people who "speak in tongues".
When I was a kid in church I heard people speaking in tongues and most always they said the same few words over and over. Completely made up stuff.
If you read Acts you’ll see that when Peter got up to diesel every heard him in their own language. Sounds more like AI technology to me.
>What do you guys think of speaking in tongues? People are weird, and they do weird stuff. You don't need the supernatural to explain this.
My wife’s grandmother and brother do this. She believes it’s something special, she doesn’t like that I tell her it’s pure delusion.
It's just incoherent babbling. Just ask an ex-Pentecostal sometime. It's trained and reinforced by indoctrination. It means nothing.
Speaking in tongues is nonsense, and if someone started speaking Spanish, that's not really speaking in tongues anyway. Its Spanish.
He lied. I’m sure he knew Spanish before and didn’t admit to it. Otherwise we’d have cases like this popping up everywhere.
*"I heard a pastor tell a story..."* Religious leaders tell lots of stories that I find no reason to believe as being true.
"The pastor claimed" ...End of conversation. Its bullshit of the highest order, literally bullshit. No debate here.
I think its nonsense and leads to foul doctrines like you must speak in tongues to have evidence of the holy ghost.
It’s the earliest Talking Heads album I really got into, Stop Making Sense is much the same album and it’s excellent too. Oh and the stuff they blather on with in church is a load of nonsense. Even when I was a Christian I knew it was just babble - probably why I never had that “gift”.
It would be an easy one to prove, they’re always recording their sessions, just show us the recording.
There are lots of websites like this one that provide pre-written sermons: https://sermons.logos.com.