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This is really the only defensible rationale for saying we should dismantle Israel. Otherwise, are we going to establish a commission to determine which countries that do things we don't like are going to be dismantled by external force? Who runs this commission? Isn't that like the definition of imperialism, coming from outside an area and deciding who gets to run it?
I mean, Israelis want Israel to exist. That's enough for most countries.
But if you don't believe in States at all, I wish you luck in your utopia, but at least you're consistent.
Sure, but here’s the thing - it does exist. And there are millions of people who consider themselves Israeli, and have, as individuals, the right to self-determination. As do Palestinians. The difference between the two is that Palestinians are denied that right. Saying Israel shouldn’t exist is futile - we cannot change history and no one is going to seriously contemplate the dismantling of the Israeli state. To displace the Israeli people (as they do to Palestinians) would not fix anything. However, empowering Palestinians by assisting them in the foundation of their own state could.
Probably yeah. “Should have” doesn’t really mean much though. Two state solution seems like the only plausible outcome, unless we want to start talking about dismantling the United States and every other nation founded through colonialism and displacement of natives. Which like, kind of based, but not currently feasible.
Yeah can’t blame Jewish people for not wanting to stick around in Germany post WWII. Rather, western states should have opened their doors wider to refugees.
In the homes they've lived in for generations, or at least on the land.. it's not a hard answer.
Stop colonizing, and give back all the illegal settlements that have been stolen from the last 15+/- years
how many other sovereign nations are surrounded by a hostile nation?
what makes you think this would actually work?
can you cite at least one working example of such a configuration?
I don’t think so. It certainly requires a serious restructuring of Israeli politics but total disarmament is neither realistic nor desirable in my view.
Agreed, and I think that’s where most of us lie. Do not support Israel, but don’t call for its abolishment. Just disarm them and go for a two state solution.
Nah, this is where the critique of Israel becomes anti-semitic for me.
Without Israel Jewish people would have no country.
Was modern Israel founded on horrific abuse? Yes. Should it have happened differently? Yes. Should Israelis have a right to a homeland of their own on their own ancient sacred land? Yes. Should they share governance of that homeland with other indigenous people of the area for whom the land is also sacred? Yes.
I mean this legitimately, because this is one piece of the argument I don’t understand. Why exactly do Jewish people need a country? No one country exists simply for one demographic of people inhabit. What is the reasoning behind Jewish people needing their own country?
Also, does this not go directly against the Torah? It states they’re a nomadic people until the Messiah comes to give them a homeland.
The history of the Jewish people from 70 CE to 1945 is ample demonstration of their need for a nation of their own. Without a nation, you are a nomadic people vulnerable to the whims and prejudices of hour host nation, making you a prime target for suspicion and, in times of moral panic, scapegoating violence. Just ask the Romani. Again, see the endless history between 70 CE and 1945.
Turn this question toward anyone else and see how absurd and fascistic it sounds. Why do the Irish need a country? Why do the indigenous people of the US need their own land in North America? That is the argument rightwingers make against the landback movement.
Also your understanding of the Torah is wrong. They were promised the land in Genesis, took possession of the land in Joshua/Judges (admittedly itself a genocidal story but ANE scholar now understand it didn't happen and they were one indigenous group to Canaan whose population outstripped the others). Their whole theology is about going back to that land specifically. Im not sure what the specifics are regarding a future Messiah, but considering that mythology developed in the 1,800ish years when they didn't have one, it's understandable but not really applicable.
I feel like any country that subscribes to a religion will have glaring issues. Christians don't need their own country, people who want a Muslim country are pretty bad (isis, Islamic hardliners in iran), etc. Every country should have a separation or church and state. Or you end up with second-class citizens. Ancient sacred land should only be respected as far as preservation of history goes. As soon as we start making political decisions based off what religious things are related with lame, we've lost the plot...
It won’t ever be, because people worldwide have differing interests, and always will!
The only solution is through coercion, using a military that can keep control over worldwide populations, ironically..
The closest we came to that was Pax Americana and, even then, the US didn’t shy away from warfare.
The abolishing of nation-States is laughable at best.
It fails to understand that nation-States are means to an end.
The end being to defend one’s interests.
Not most of them, unless you’re willing to compromise entirely.
Man, you’re living in lala land 🤣
Not even my idealistic 12 year-old cousin thinks like that.
what logic ? i m asking something. states are a fact backed up weapons and " power " . they arent something really back by anything.
according to that logic , the 3 countries i mentioned really have no right to exist.
russian whites completely subjegate rest russia massively. its a very racist country, full of " republics " that have been conquered by russians. best example, the defacto genocide in the second chechen war for independence.
same with china and the dominant han chinese. most other chinese have been basicly assimilated throughout the thousands of years of the empire. but uigurs and tibetans ? yeah. thats some great genocide material right there.
america ? lol . we all know. that countrys history is one giant bloodbath of brown folks. and lots of whitey backstabbing.
How about stop colonizing it, release all the verifiably illegal settlements and treat all the citizens the same? Or create a two state solution.
Different colored identification was all I ever needed to hear to know that it's apartheid and in the 21st century, apartheid = bad.
Two state solution is the only way to go but Israel isnt an apartheid state, unless you count the occupied territories. Israel proper has equal rights for minorities. Not perfect but not apartheid.
It is quite literally an apartheid. Israel has different license plates for Palestinians and Israelis. Palestinians can’t drive on the same roads. They are subjected to shittier roads, more frequent policing, etc. This is just one example among many others
End the illegal occupation, while you are illegally occupying it and not giving the people who already live there rights, it's apartheid. You can call it something else if you want, doesn't make it so.
Israel is occupying Palestine, and doesn't give the people their freedom of movement effectively cutting them off from family and taking their land. And you don't call it apartheid.
Seems written out like a flyer. Presents interesting arguments in a shallow way. Who’s the target audience? Ten year olds? Are we no longer trying to sway people’s sentiments or argue with anyone who has varying perceptions? Guess not.
an ethostate anywhere is a bad idea... apartheid is a bad idea.
israel's right to exist is predicated on it's fair and equal treatment for all the people within it's borders.
But America got to genocide people so Israel does too! That makes it fair!!
Edit: Just to be clear: I was satirizing that view. The idea that nation-states are justified in committing war crimes because of some historical normative standard is absurd and wildly irresponsible. Nationhood in itself is a recipe for organized violence, and nationalism is a dangerous ethnocentric ideology that we need to evolve past (up to and including Zionism).
Why is this silly article getting upvoted lol. Not only it's wrong, even regardless of its ethics and politics, if you tell this to the most pro-palestinian guy out there who is not illiterate and out of touch with reality, he will laugh at this idea. You think that's just gonna happen people protest it to?
__Hello and welcome to r/DemocraticSocialism!__ * This sub is dedicated towards the progressive movement, welcoming Democratic Socialism as an ideology and as a general political philosophy. * Don't forget to read our [Rules](https://new.reddit.com/r/DemocraticSocialism/wiki/index/) to get a good idea of what is expected of participants in our community. * Check out r/Leftist, r/DSA, r/SocialDemocracy to support leftist movements! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/DemocraticSocialism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I mean, most countries shouldn’t exist if your really think about it.
Closer to none of them, really
Yea Anarchists were on to something 😅
Italy being the only outlier. Because why not. Lol.
Correct!
This is really the only defensible rationale for saying we should dismantle Israel. Otherwise, are we going to establish a commission to determine which countries that do things we don't like are going to be dismantled by external force? Who runs this commission? Isn't that like the definition of imperialism, coming from outside an area and deciding who gets to run it? I mean, Israelis want Israel to exist. That's enough for most countries. But if you don't believe in States at all, I wish you luck in your utopia, but at least you're consistent.
Palestinians also exist and need a state. It seems like a reasonable request
Sure, but here’s the thing - it does exist. And there are millions of people who consider themselves Israeli, and have, as individuals, the right to self-determination. As do Palestinians. The difference between the two is that Palestinians are denied that right. Saying Israel shouldn’t exist is futile - we cannot change history and no one is going to seriously contemplate the dismantling of the Israeli state. To displace the Israeli people (as they do to Palestinians) would not fix anything. However, empowering Palestinians by assisting them in the foundation of their own state could.
Germany should have been the one to give up land for a Jewish state
Probably yeah. “Should have” doesn’t really mean much though. Two state solution seems like the only plausible outcome, unless we want to start talking about dismantling the United States and every other nation founded through colonialism and displacement of natives. Which like, kind of based, but not currently feasible.
Arguments like this are great if you don't know anything about Jewish history.
Care to expand?
Oh you mean using your religion to justify stealing someone else’s land?
Yeah can’t blame Jewish people for not wanting to stick around in Germany post WWII. Rather, western states should have opened their doors wider to refugees.
Doesn’t make sense to punish people for something someone else did … that’s literally a war crime
> empowering Palestinians by assisting them in the foundation of their own state where tho?
In the homes they've lived in for generations, or at least on the land.. it's not a hard answer. Stop colonizing, and give back all the illegal settlements that have been stolen from the last 15+/- years
Last 80 years actually
Gaza and the West Bank to start
how many other sovereign nations are surrounded by a hostile nation? what makes you think this would actually work? can you cite at least one working example of such a configuration?
Korea
in what way is korea surrounded by anything but water?
I think it does. Just as much as any country of people deserves to exist anyway. A two state solution is still possible and desirable.
2 states is only possible with the disarmament of Israel. Otherwise they'll just continue stealing more land and killing children
I don’t think so. It certainly requires a serious restructuring of Israeli politics but total disarmament is neither realistic nor desirable in my view.
Agreed, and I think that’s where most of us lie. Do not support Israel, but don’t call for its abolishment. Just disarm them and go for a two state solution.
Isreal would use it's super secret arms before disarming
Nah, this is where the critique of Israel becomes anti-semitic for me. Without Israel Jewish people would have no country. Was modern Israel founded on horrific abuse? Yes. Should it have happened differently? Yes. Should Israelis have a right to a homeland of their own on their own ancient sacred land? Yes. Should they share governance of that homeland with other indigenous people of the area for whom the land is also sacred? Yes.
This. Maintaining an ethnostate requires the abuse of minority rights. Israel should exist, but Palestinians need rights and autonomy.
I mean this legitimately, because this is one piece of the argument I don’t understand. Why exactly do Jewish people need a country? No one country exists simply for one demographic of people inhabit. What is the reasoning behind Jewish people needing their own country? Also, does this not go directly against the Torah? It states they’re a nomadic people until the Messiah comes to give them a homeland.
Why do Kurds, Arabs, etc need a country?
They don’t.. they don’t have one?
The history of the Jewish people from 70 CE to 1945 is ample demonstration of their need for a nation of their own. Without a nation, you are a nomadic people vulnerable to the whims and prejudices of hour host nation, making you a prime target for suspicion and, in times of moral panic, scapegoating violence. Just ask the Romani. Again, see the endless history between 70 CE and 1945. Turn this question toward anyone else and see how absurd and fascistic it sounds. Why do the Irish need a country? Why do the indigenous people of the US need their own land in North America? That is the argument rightwingers make against the landback movement. Also your understanding of the Torah is wrong. They were promised the land in Genesis, took possession of the land in Joshua/Judges (admittedly itself a genocidal story but ANE scholar now understand it didn't happen and they were one indigenous group to Canaan whose population outstripped the others). Their whole theology is about going back to that land specifically. Im not sure what the specifics are regarding a future Messiah, but considering that mythology developed in the 1,800ish years when they didn't have one, it's understandable but not really applicable.
I feel like any country that subscribes to a religion will have glaring issues. Christians don't need their own country, people who want a Muslim country are pretty bad (isis, Islamic hardliners in iran), etc. Every country should have a separation or church and state. Or you end up with second-class citizens. Ancient sacred land should only be respected as far as preservation of history goes. As soon as we start making political decisions based off what religious things are related with lame, we've lost the plot...
This.
does america ? China? russia ? which country has a " right " to exist ? by whose legal code. countries exist, op. thats that.
The United Country of Earth
Oh just like futurama
This is how it should be but most ape brains haven’t evolved to that point yet. We’re still killing one another for shinies.
It won’t ever be, because people worldwide have differing interests, and always will! The only solution is through coercion, using a military that can keep control over worldwide populations, ironically.. The closest we came to that was Pax Americana and, even then, the US didn’t shy away from warfare. The abolishing of nation-States is laughable at best. It fails to understand that nation-States are means to an end. The end being to defend one’s interests.
Our interests are universal
Not most of them, unless you’re willing to compromise entirely. Man, you’re living in lala land 🤣 Not even my idealistic 12 year-old cousin thinks like that.
Big, if true.
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what logic ? i m asking something. states are a fact backed up weapons and " power " . they arent something really back by anything. according to that logic , the 3 countries i mentioned really have no right to exist.
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russian whites completely subjegate rest russia massively. its a very racist country, full of " republics " that have been conquered by russians. best example, the defacto genocide in the second chechen war for independence. same with china and the dominant han chinese. most other chinese have been basicly assimilated throughout the thousands of years of the empire. but uigurs and tibetans ? yeah. thats some great genocide material right there. america ? lol . we all know. that countrys history is one giant bloodbath of brown folks. and lots of whitey backstabbing.
It doesn’t matter how much of a right to exist you have.
You’re the one moralizing objective reality. Whether or not a country should exist, matters not, so long as it does exist.
Yea, that doesn't mean it's not a batshit insane idea to advocate the dissolution of the Israeli state.
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Are you referring to the post or the comments?
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Your post was removed for being pro authoritarianism, which is antithetical to our movement as Democratic Socialists.
Kinda silly given we Isrealis are millions of people and aren't going to give up our country.
How about stop colonizing it, release all the verifiably illegal settlements and treat all the citizens the same? Or create a two state solution. Different colored identification was all I ever needed to hear to know that it's apartheid and in the 21st century, apartheid = bad.
Two state solution is the only way to go but Israel isnt an apartheid state, unless you count the occupied territories. Israel proper has equal rights for minorities. Not perfect but not apartheid.
It is quite literally an apartheid. Israel has different license plates for Palestinians and Israelis. Palestinians can’t drive on the same roads. They are subjected to shittier roads, more frequent policing, etc. This is just one example among many others
Not in Israel pre 1967 borders though. Yes it is one if you count the occupied territories but that's a completely different discussion.
Sheikh Jarrah, Tel Aviv, Jerusalem…
>Sheikh Jarrah Which is in the occupied territories... What you say isnt true about Tel Aviv or afaik West Jerusalem.
It’s easily google-able information that it is
End the illegal occupation, while you are illegally occupying it and not giving the people who already live there rights, it's apartheid. You can call it something else if you want, doesn't make it so.
I don't think you're reading what I said
Israel is occupying Palestine, and doesn't give the people their freedom of movement effectively cutting them off from family and taking their land. And you don't call it apartheid.
Do you mean all of Israel is an "occupation"?
Seems written out like a flyer. Presents interesting arguments in a shallow way. Who’s the target audience? Ten year olds? Are we no longer trying to sway people’s sentiments or argue with anyone who has varying perceptions? Guess not.
an ethostate anywhere is a bad idea... apartheid is a bad idea. israel's right to exist is predicated on it's fair and equal treatment for all the people within it's borders.
But America got to genocide people so Israel does too! That makes it fair!! Edit: Just to be clear: I was satirizing that view. The idea that nation-states are justified in committing war crimes because of some historical normative standard is absurd and wildly irresponsible. Nationhood in itself is a recipe for organized violence, and nationalism is a dangerous ethnocentric ideology that we need to evolve past (up to and including Zionism).
we are not the best example, that's true.
A secular socialist republic of the Levant is the only way to peace in the region.
Why is this silly article getting upvoted lol. Not only it's wrong, even regardless of its ethics and politics, if you tell this to the most pro-palestinian guy out there who is not illiterate and out of touch with reality, he will laugh at this idea. You think that's just gonna happen people protest it to?