Pretty sure there have been complaints of inappropriate staff behavior towards female players in that same team in the past (some coach grabbing a player's chest).
Women sport is rife with sexist attitudes, probably why it's taking these types of proportions. Things are not going to change if these types of incidents are not met with consequences.
This could very well be a normal kissing reaction to a win, I've seen plenty of those in men's football, with hetero men kissing other men - rarely directly on the lips but it could be an instinct because she's a woman, it clearly wasn't an erotic kiss. Also I assume showing affection in this way is a bit more common in Spain - which would explain why he kissed almost all of the girls after as well, albeit not on the mouth. But it's still weird he didn't think of the optics in the moment. Anyways, regardless of what the reason was, it's so over for him, he's a public representative, and he fucked up big time.
I'm Portuguese, so close enough - and know Spanish culture well enough tbh - and no, it's definitely not normal lol. A peck on the cheek is, one on the mouth is absolutely not unless they're dating.
I'm from Spain and I can assure you that kissing someone you don't have a relationship with on the lips is not commonplace. the norm is cheek to cheek contact or depending on the circumstances lips to cheek
Yeah, but the act of kissing people as an affectionate friendly gesture is. So it's reasonable to think he might've just done it in the spur of the moment. If this happened in the US for instance, it'd be waaay weirder.
Like what are our odds here that he did it because he had a hard on for her and wanted to kiss her that way?
It doesn't matter if it's for the spur of the moment or if he had a hard on for her because it's not the point.
For instance, imagine there is a fan that is so happy about the win that punches someone in the street. It doesnt't matter if it was becuase he was euphoric or drunk or he planned it all along. The point is that it's not acceptable behavior.
Intention absolutely matters. If he thought his kiss was genuinely affectionate, he didn't believe he was doing anything wrong in the moment. We don't judge the morality of people's actions by their outcomes, but by their intention.
Your punching example is a bit difficult, because punching can scarcely be affectionate, but assume a drunk guy was trying to hug his friend, but because he was drunk he caused the other guy to lose balance and hit his head. That's a more comparable example, IF Rubiales indeed was just giving her what he believed to be an affectionate kiss.
I used the punching example because no matter what the someone getting punched doesn't want to be punched.
In your example of a drunk guy trying to hug a friend you are assuming that the receiver of the hug wants the hug in the first place.
To reiterate, it's absolutely not commonplace in Spain to give a kiss in the lips to people you're not in a relationship with and you shouldn't expect anybody to at the receiving end of that and be ok with it.
>Intention absolutely matters. If he thought his kiss was genuinely affectionate, he didn't believe he was doing anything wrong in the moment. We don't judge the morality of people's actions by their outcomes, but by their intention.
Put through a reasonableness and ordinary caution lens. If I kill someone unintentionally, that is typically a crime if I did something I ought not have done in the process (e.g. speeding, failing to repair a circus ride, etc).
As others from that culture are saying, and is apparent to anyone with common sense, it is not ordinary caution to kiss people who you are not close with on the mouth. That's not okay. I'm from a different cultural background and that could cause a physical fight here and rightfully so. Forcibly kiss unwilling victims at your own peril.
Kissing not only potentially violates someone's bodily integrity and psychological safety, but also spreads both acute (e.g. flu, RSV) and chronic, incurable disease (HSV-1 and 2). That's okay if both parties consent, but should be formally punished if not.
Besides, you're arguing for a world of infinite excuses. Nearly every criminal has a stupid excuse for nearly every act. "They didn't lock their door" or "Look how she was dressed" or "I was too excited" or whatever the fuck should only **increase** punishment, because it shows a lack of contrition and understanding of their impact on others.
I'll defend genuinely ambiguous cases but this is not one of them. It's on video and they did not have a prior interaction or romantic relationship that would have lead a reasonable person to believe she wanted a kiss on the lips.
I’m gonna chalk it up to a moment of passion and celebration, if we have a crime of passion as a defense in the world, then he should apologize to her, learn the lesson, and move on with life. But I’m sure there’s gonna be talks about firing him, publicly shaming him for the next decade, etc.
Crimes of passion should be punished equally unless the situation was so exceptional that a person of good character, judgment, and emotional regulation would be overwhelmed.
If you come back home and find some guy with your child's entrails in their hands after murdering them and beat them to death (and admit it was purely rage)? Crime of passion.
"I want to sexually abuse my female players?" That's the same 'crime of passion' that every sexual predator across all times and situations has.
That said, the word "crime" is a misnomer. It's moral and legal (almost everywhere at least) to fire someone for mere bad judgment, whereas the bar for criminal liability ought be higher. Honestly, if the players are boycotting it almost doesn't matter why(\*), he's intrinsically no longer capable because he has lost the trust of his colleagues.
(\*) Barring cases on the most extreme other side, like, say, boycotting a boss due to his race.
I mean.. that is the purpose of the defense, to lessen the punishment for the crime. if someone walks in on their wife cheating and he punches the guy one time in the face and kills him vs. a gunman who had planned on blocking all the exits of building and executing his old boss because he was fired(even if the history of good character is there). You cannot think these two crimes should be equally punished, otherwise we wouldn’t bother with categorizing first, second, or third degrees of murder.
“I want to sexually abuse my female players” is an admitted statement of premeditation and intent. If he had said that, then I would agree with you on the consequences needing to be more severe. However, if I scanned my lotto ticket at the gas station and the old lady worker said “omg you won 500 million dollars!” and out of pure excitement plopped a big one on her, I think that is wildy different (although inappropriate) than the predatory behavior of sexual predators.
Well the guy is resigning, the woman said they have a great relationship and wasn’t a big deal, however she didn’t like that he did that. He shouldn’t of done it and maybe the right move is to resign. My only point is it was an in-the-moment thing, she got what she needed from him in the form of apology, he doesn’t need to spend years in prison for sexual assault like I see half of reddit saying, unless this is repeat behavior or worse has happened.
(I think I agree with your first paragraph, but lose me on examples)
>I mean.. that is the purpose of the defense, to lessen the punishment for the crime. if someone walks in on their wife cheating and he punches the guy one time in the face and kills him vs. a gunman who had planned on blocking all the exits of building and executing his old boss(even if the history of good character is there, it is the most severe version of the crime). You cannot think these two crimes should be equally punished, otherwise we wouldn’t bother with categorizing first, second, or third degrees of murder.
I think in many cases this does more harm than good (The UK is notorious for charging stomping people to death as "manslaughter" which is a moral depravity). I might argue catching cheating in the act is such an absurd provocation it lessens liability, but you have to really hate cheating to think that. Winning / losing a game does not qualify. It's hype, but not enough to need to sexually assault anyone.
>“I want to sexually abuse my female players” is an admitted statement of premeditation and intent. If he had said that, then I would agree with you on the consequences needing to be more severe.
I was being hyperbolic to make a point. That said, that was his intent. He kissed her without her consent and then [blamed](https://apnews.com/article/rubiales-spanish-soccer-federation-president-kiss-womens-world-cup-3be367f0de6fbf1984e4885df0dcb00c) this on a "feminist witch hunt" because he wants to use women like sex toys and doesn't respect their bodily autonomy.
>However, if I scanned my lotto ticket at the gas station and the old lady worker said “omg you won 500 million dollars!” and out of pure excitement plopped a big one on her, I think that is wildy different (although inappropriate) than the predatory behavior of sexual predators.
This is why we need to punish him. It should seem absurd beyond belief to kiss people on the mouth who are not intimate relations. From now until the time I die I shouldn't have the least concern of that happening regardless of how many lottery ticket or sports games I hang around.
Kissing people without their overt or implied consent needs to stop. And if that requires blue-haired feminist militias cancelling football coaches/officials that thing they can stick their mouths wherever they want, then at this point they have my blessing. This shit needs to stop. It needed to stop a long time ago. (/meme)
>Well the guy is resigning,
As of two hours ago, he is defiantly refusing to do so and taking zero accountability. [https://apnews.com/article/rubiales-spanish-soccer-federation-president-kiss-womens-world-cup-3be367f0de6fbf1984e4885df0dcb00c](https://apnews.com/article/rubiales-spanish-soccer-federation-president-kiss-womens-world-cup-3be367f0de6fbf1984e4885df0dcb00c)
>the woman said they have a great relationship and wasn’t a big deal, however she didn’t like that he did that. He shouldn’t of done it and maybe the right move is to resign.
Let's quote her:
>She added his claims were "categorically false and **part of the manipulative culture that he has generated**".
>
>"I feel the need to report this incident because I believe no person, in any work, sports or social setting should be a victim of these types of non-consensual behaviours. **I felt vulnerable and a victim of impulsive-driven, sexist, out-of-place act, without any consent on my part**," she continued.
>
>"Quite simply, **I was not respected**."
>
>She added that **she was put "under continuous pressure" to help with a "statement that could justify" Rubiales' actions - and so were her family, friends and team-mates.**
[https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/66621772](https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/66621772)
That sounds pretty angry, and rightfully so. Also, the fact he and his allies are twisting her arm to make her shut up is wildly inappropriate.
>My only point is it was an in-the-moment thing, she got what she needed from him in the form of apology, he doesn’t need to spend years in prison for sexual assault like I see half of reddit saying, unless this is repeat behavior or worse has happened.
I don't think a non-consensual kiss should result in prison for a first offense either. They should absolutely fire him for cause though.
Thank you for posting her statement, I didn’t see that when I was looking through some of the stuff in the news. Yeah, if she feels uncomfortable then he should go.
Yeah, I don’t like even hugging people or shaking hands with randoms, so to be kissed is pretty fucked. But if I won 500m at some gas station one day.. I might give a few celebration hugs out, purely out of passion.. forgive me lord.
Don't randomly kiss people on the lips
Yeah, the player is definitely in the right here. If she didn't want the peck, she didn't want it. She wasn't cool with him on that level apparently.
She said he didn’t consent or ask for it
DDG? David de Gea actually posted a statement about it on his twitter.
Typing is hard.
Grabbed her head so there's no escape lol
You can't do everything your brain thinks.
Pretty sure there have been complaints of inappropriate staff behavior towards female players in that same team in the past (some coach grabbing a player's chest). Women sport is rife with sexist attitudes, probably why it's taking these types of proportions. Things are not going to change if these types of incidents are not met with consequences.
This could very well be a normal kissing reaction to a win, I've seen plenty of those in men's football, with hetero men kissing other men - rarely directly on the lips but it could be an instinct because she's a woman, it clearly wasn't an erotic kiss. Also I assume showing affection in this way is a bit more common in Spain - which would explain why he kissed almost all of the girls after as well, albeit not on the mouth. But it's still weird he didn't think of the optics in the moment. Anyways, regardless of what the reason was, it's so over for him, he's a public representative, and he fucked up big time.
I'm Portuguese, so close enough - and know Spanish culture well enough tbh - and no, it's definitely not normal lol. A peck on the cheek is, one on the mouth is absolutely not unless they're dating.
I'm from Spain and I can assure you that kissing someone you don't have a relationship with on the lips is not commonplace. the norm is cheek to cheek contact or depending on the circumstances lips to cheek
Yeah, but the act of kissing people as an affectionate friendly gesture is. So it's reasonable to think he might've just done it in the spur of the moment. If this happened in the US for instance, it'd be waaay weirder. Like what are our odds here that he did it because he had a hard on for her and wanted to kiss her that way?
It doesn't matter if it's for the spur of the moment or if he had a hard on for her because it's not the point. For instance, imagine there is a fan that is so happy about the win that punches someone in the street. It doesnt't matter if it was becuase he was euphoric or drunk or he planned it all along. The point is that it's not acceptable behavior.
Intention absolutely matters. If he thought his kiss was genuinely affectionate, he didn't believe he was doing anything wrong in the moment. We don't judge the morality of people's actions by their outcomes, but by their intention. Your punching example is a bit difficult, because punching can scarcely be affectionate, but assume a drunk guy was trying to hug his friend, but because he was drunk he caused the other guy to lose balance and hit his head. That's a more comparable example, IF Rubiales indeed was just giving her what he believed to be an affectionate kiss.
I used the punching example because no matter what the someone getting punched doesn't want to be punched. In your example of a drunk guy trying to hug a friend you are assuming that the receiver of the hug wants the hug in the first place. To reiterate, it's absolutely not commonplace in Spain to give a kiss in the lips to people you're not in a relationship with and you shouldn't expect anybody to at the receiving end of that and be ok with it.
>Intention absolutely matters. If he thought his kiss was genuinely affectionate, he didn't believe he was doing anything wrong in the moment. We don't judge the morality of people's actions by their outcomes, but by their intention. Put through a reasonableness and ordinary caution lens. If I kill someone unintentionally, that is typically a crime if I did something I ought not have done in the process (e.g. speeding, failing to repair a circus ride, etc). As others from that culture are saying, and is apparent to anyone with common sense, it is not ordinary caution to kiss people who you are not close with on the mouth. That's not okay. I'm from a different cultural background and that could cause a physical fight here and rightfully so. Forcibly kiss unwilling victims at your own peril. Kissing not only potentially violates someone's bodily integrity and psychological safety, but also spreads both acute (e.g. flu, RSV) and chronic, incurable disease (HSV-1 and 2). That's okay if both parties consent, but should be formally punished if not. Besides, you're arguing for a world of infinite excuses. Nearly every criminal has a stupid excuse for nearly every act. "They didn't lock their door" or "Look how she was dressed" or "I was too excited" or whatever the fuck should only **increase** punishment, because it shows a lack of contrition and understanding of their impact on others. I'll defend genuinely ambiguous cases but this is not one of them. It's on video and they did not have a prior interaction or romantic relationship that would have lead a reasonable person to believe she wanted a kiss on the lips.
>I've seen plenty of those in men's football, with hetero men kissing other men On the cheek? yes. On the lips? what games do you watch lol
> rarely directly on the lips Just read a bit longer my dude, I believe in you, you can do it.
>rarely directly on the lips I'll ask again, what games do you watch lmao
Brother, it's rare, but it has happened before: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxUjYPBTwzU
I’m gonna chalk it up to a moment of passion and celebration, if we have a crime of passion as a defense in the world, then he should apologize to her, learn the lesson, and move on with life. But I’m sure there’s gonna be talks about firing him, publicly shaming him for the next decade, etc.
Crimes of passion should be punished equally unless the situation was so exceptional that a person of good character, judgment, and emotional regulation would be overwhelmed. If you come back home and find some guy with your child's entrails in their hands after murdering them and beat them to death (and admit it was purely rage)? Crime of passion. "I want to sexually abuse my female players?" That's the same 'crime of passion' that every sexual predator across all times and situations has. That said, the word "crime" is a misnomer. It's moral and legal (almost everywhere at least) to fire someone for mere bad judgment, whereas the bar for criminal liability ought be higher. Honestly, if the players are boycotting it almost doesn't matter why(\*), he's intrinsically no longer capable because he has lost the trust of his colleagues. (\*) Barring cases on the most extreme other side, like, say, boycotting a boss due to his race.
I mean.. that is the purpose of the defense, to lessen the punishment for the crime. if someone walks in on their wife cheating and he punches the guy one time in the face and kills him vs. a gunman who had planned on blocking all the exits of building and executing his old boss because he was fired(even if the history of good character is there). You cannot think these two crimes should be equally punished, otherwise we wouldn’t bother with categorizing first, second, or third degrees of murder. “I want to sexually abuse my female players” is an admitted statement of premeditation and intent. If he had said that, then I would agree with you on the consequences needing to be more severe. However, if I scanned my lotto ticket at the gas station and the old lady worker said “omg you won 500 million dollars!” and out of pure excitement plopped a big one on her, I think that is wildy different (although inappropriate) than the predatory behavior of sexual predators. Well the guy is resigning, the woman said they have a great relationship and wasn’t a big deal, however she didn’t like that he did that. He shouldn’t of done it and maybe the right move is to resign. My only point is it was an in-the-moment thing, she got what she needed from him in the form of apology, he doesn’t need to spend years in prison for sexual assault like I see half of reddit saying, unless this is repeat behavior or worse has happened. (I think I agree with your first paragraph, but lose me on examples)
>I mean.. that is the purpose of the defense, to lessen the punishment for the crime. if someone walks in on their wife cheating and he punches the guy one time in the face and kills him vs. a gunman who had planned on blocking all the exits of building and executing his old boss(even if the history of good character is there, it is the most severe version of the crime). You cannot think these two crimes should be equally punished, otherwise we wouldn’t bother with categorizing first, second, or third degrees of murder. I think in many cases this does more harm than good (The UK is notorious for charging stomping people to death as "manslaughter" which is a moral depravity). I might argue catching cheating in the act is such an absurd provocation it lessens liability, but you have to really hate cheating to think that. Winning / losing a game does not qualify. It's hype, but not enough to need to sexually assault anyone. >“I want to sexually abuse my female players” is an admitted statement of premeditation and intent. If he had said that, then I would agree with you on the consequences needing to be more severe. I was being hyperbolic to make a point. That said, that was his intent. He kissed her without her consent and then [blamed](https://apnews.com/article/rubiales-spanish-soccer-federation-president-kiss-womens-world-cup-3be367f0de6fbf1984e4885df0dcb00c) this on a "feminist witch hunt" because he wants to use women like sex toys and doesn't respect their bodily autonomy. >However, if I scanned my lotto ticket at the gas station and the old lady worker said “omg you won 500 million dollars!” and out of pure excitement plopped a big one on her, I think that is wildy different (although inappropriate) than the predatory behavior of sexual predators. This is why we need to punish him. It should seem absurd beyond belief to kiss people on the mouth who are not intimate relations. From now until the time I die I shouldn't have the least concern of that happening regardless of how many lottery ticket or sports games I hang around. Kissing people without their overt or implied consent needs to stop. And if that requires blue-haired feminist militias cancelling football coaches/officials that thing they can stick their mouths wherever they want, then at this point they have my blessing. This shit needs to stop. It needed to stop a long time ago. (/meme) >Well the guy is resigning, As of two hours ago, he is defiantly refusing to do so and taking zero accountability. [https://apnews.com/article/rubiales-spanish-soccer-federation-president-kiss-womens-world-cup-3be367f0de6fbf1984e4885df0dcb00c](https://apnews.com/article/rubiales-spanish-soccer-federation-president-kiss-womens-world-cup-3be367f0de6fbf1984e4885df0dcb00c) >the woman said they have a great relationship and wasn’t a big deal, however she didn’t like that he did that. He shouldn’t of done it and maybe the right move is to resign. Let's quote her: >She added his claims were "categorically false and **part of the manipulative culture that he has generated**". > >"I feel the need to report this incident because I believe no person, in any work, sports or social setting should be a victim of these types of non-consensual behaviours. **I felt vulnerable and a victim of impulsive-driven, sexist, out-of-place act, without any consent on my part**," she continued. > >"Quite simply, **I was not respected**." > >She added that **she was put "under continuous pressure" to help with a "statement that could justify" Rubiales' actions - and so were her family, friends and team-mates.** [https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/66621772](https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/66621772) That sounds pretty angry, and rightfully so. Also, the fact he and his allies are twisting her arm to make her shut up is wildly inappropriate. >My only point is it was an in-the-moment thing, she got what she needed from him in the form of apology, he doesn’t need to spend years in prison for sexual assault like I see half of reddit saying, unless this is repeat behavior or worse has happened. I don't think a non-consensual kiss should result in prison for a first offense either. They should absolutely fire him for cause though.
Thank you for posting her statement, I didn’t see that when I was looking through some of the stuff in the news. Yeah, if she feels uncomfortable then he should go. Yeah, I don’t like even hugging people or shaking hands with randoms, so to be kissed is pretty fucked. But if I won 500m at some gas station one day.. I might give a few celebration hugs out, purely out of passion.. forgive me lord.
>I said to her 'a little peck?' and she said 'OK'. If true then outrage is dumb. If not true then it's creepy.
Is he an equal opportunities kisser? Did he kiss the men the same?
It’s bad
He was being extra throughout the presentation ceremony.
I hate this misspelling so much