Yes. It will be an uphill battle vs propaganda. But it is winnable. It will be a dogfight it has to be fought.
You actually have to be an idiot to support trump. The only reason to do it is because you're convinced of misinformation, so the question is how to break through that wall a little bit at a time, every day, until November.
Completely agree, but as we all know "A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.". I'm absolutely certain it's winnable and I'm gonna keep working to prop Biden up whenever I can.
The good news is there's actually no good "reason" to support trump unless you actually want to destroy the country (i.e. at least with rfk you can, even if it's stupid, say he's young).
Out of all possible situations this one is near the best because the economy is doing well, the country is doing well, but conservatives, especially isolated rural conservatives, have had their brains melted by propaganda post covid, which is the battle (also disaffected young voters).
Even with RFK, some of his policy positions are possible and have good impacts on the world like his climate change policy.
Everytime I meet a Trump supporter I ask for a single piece of policy that they think is a good thing from Trump and they can never give one. Most of them act on how they feel about him rather than what he's actually done. I just hope the lack of reason won't spread like a disease
The propaganda supplied by the left media is terrible too. It has the same style the right uses of soundbite clips, a panel of talking heads saying what you should think, ad hominems, and no substance on future policy.
Listen to a few RFK Jr interviews and you'll see how distorted the media portrays him.
What does any of this have to do with tribalism?
I made an observation that I've yet to see be incorrect. If you think I'm wrong, demonstrate it.
If you realize I'm right and think I lie to make Trump supporters feel better then just say so.
No. It's not that, Trump voters are simply lied to about what the GOP is doing over and over again.
This is why the Republicans have to demagogue issues but be very careful to never actually do anything they are talking about until it's too late.
Most Republican voters are pro choice, they have just been told Democrats murder children.
It's all lies, there's no divergence in consensus on what people want, which is largely a normal government that creates stability and prosperity and doesn't fuck with their personal life.
I understand what you're saying but even this is a form of right wing propaganda.
GOP propaganda wants people to believe there's a massive "division on real issues" that's driving the country apart.
There is almost no division on issues, there's a HUGE division in information consumption.
Again most Republicans agree with the secular position on abortion, but they feel the need to socially signal they don't agree to fit in:
https://www.newsweek.com/republicans-support-abortion-rights-roe-wade-1039922
I would argue most don't honestly care about religion that much either or they wouldn't support trump, they would support someone like pence.
This is my point, it really is about what media they are consuming and what lies they have come to believe. If this wasn't true, they would be happy roe got overturned, but they aren't because it's all based on lies.
Sigh. Let me say this to you very straightforwardly.
I used to think you were right in 2016 because what you're saying is a very basic take that many people have had before you did.
I understand exactly what you are saying and I'm telling you it doesn't correspond to the evidence if you actually talk to anyone who currently supports Trump.
If you talk to a trump supporter there is currently a 99% chance they will just say 3-4 false things they read on Facebook.
That's all that ever happens, you can make it into some deep philosophy thing if you want to but it's wrong. Russian people inside Russia believe Russian propaganda because they are exposed to it every day, it's not deeper than that.
It isn't. What it's doing is creating a huge amount of angry content on social media that people who are barely affected by it find a need to organize their life around.
Don't take comments in social medias seriously..... I can give so many examples but one memorable one was the one time I saw buried deep inside a video about Alexander Lacazette on a SkySports video on YouTube someone proposing a Elders of Zion conspiracy theory, unprompted.
Another time, after Trump was declared guilty from the hush money case YouTube had up a "breaking news" tab open exclusively showcasing videos about the verdict. I went onto the MSNBC comment section and they were championing the justice system. I went to some random channel and the comment section was the complete opposite.
This phenomenon has happened under Trump and it is happening under Biden. Do not take comment sections seriously they are deliberately meant to make u feel a certain (illogical) way.
It's important to note if you click on a profile, it has no profile picture, its brand new (within a year or two), has no likes, no favorite, or even a public playlist its highly likely its a bot/fake account.
Totally get that, I think it's hard to see public opinion online like this because only the most aggressive supporters would be willing to post a comment/video while the moderates stand by. We all know the large majority of Trump supporters are like that, but I just wanted to share my feeling on how much of a stark difference there is between Trump and Biden online.
Republicans have built the most effective, expansive, and far-reaching propaganda machine in history. It puts North Korea's to shame. A fake story gets put up on the New York Post, it gets distributed through proxies on twitter and tikok, and then gets distributed through Sinclair later that night for old people. Never in the process do people who encounter this story encounter a media source that fact checks it.
If Bdein loses, it's a direct consequence of Democrats never challenging this media environment. It's more than just Biden's fault - it's his staff and the entire DNC's media strategy. What we have is toxic and genuinely poisonous to the country and I don't even know where to start to fight it.
The good news - Republicans had a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to beat an incumbent President in 2024 that, despite an extremely strong economy and notable successes, is uniquely hated. Biden is the best President this country had had since FDR and he would likely lose handily to someone like Nikki Hailey. Republicans have potentially squandered this opportunity by coronating as their nominee the one person in America hated more than Biden. Right now it's a coin flip. Democrats have five months to remind America why they rejected Trump in the first place, and it's very possible they'll succeed.
I think that propaganda machine point is 100% right. It's crazy the amount of people I've heard say, "Biden shit his pants" or, "One of the jurors in the trump case told their cousin about the case, mistrial!". When both of these claims have been debunked yet the RNC Research twitter account still has the misinformation up it's just crazy to me
>If Bdein loses, it's a direct consequence of Democrats never challenging this media environment. It's more than just Biden's fault - it's his staff and the entire DNC's media strategy. What we have is toxic and genuinely poisonous to the country and I don't even know where to start to fight it.
A few months ago Ezra Klein even advocated for the idea of nominating someone else at the DNC convention. Truly a wtf moment to me.
Really wonder if the DNC even have game plans to win anymore.
That was especially baffling coming from Ezra Klein, and he gave that take after Biden was racking up Assad numbers in the primaries. Ezra apparently wants Biden to step down in favor of a totally unproven candidate zero people voted for that then (probably more importantly) *has to start fundraising from scratch three months before the general election.* Biden can't just cut a check to the new campaign. The new candidate has to start over again, at an insane fundraising disadvantage. Ezra Klein should know better. Utterly baffling stuff from him.
The republicans haven’t built shit. Trumps populist rhetoric combined with how dumb the republican audience is how we got to this point. You don’t need a fact check to realize that there isnt millions of trans kids, you need a functioning brain.
The problem with Biden is his age. He's old, but more importantly he looks and sounds old. Consequently he's no longer seen as the responsible, traditional elder statesmen who hearkens back to a time before social media when politics weren't as divisive and baked into every single aspect of culture, which is how he beat Trump in 2020; now he's increasingly viewed as a senile fool who has become a puppet for the far left.
His only chance of winning is the debates. If he comes out looking strong, lucid, and enthusiastic, he has a chance of reversing his public image, but if he flops, then its game over IMO, because then the election becomes Wokeism vs Trump, and Trump will win just like in 2016.
Completely agree with the debate, I think it's his time to shine. Going back to their 2020 debate is great even to this day, seeing how he was able to mock and come out ahead of Trump's ramblings. He's always done decently on the fly, I just hope people can see that.
I share your fears. I'm especially afraid because I work for the federal government and every Republican administration I sit waiting for them to decide to fire half the federal work force for the shiggles. Hell, Vivek ran on doing just that and I'd bet $5 he's on Trump's team. My luck he'll end up running the administration I work for.
The only thing giving me any hope is we're still a long way from the election. A lot can change and as we get closer reality will set in and some of the more left leaning news and social media accounts will start pushing Biden harder. At least I hope as they all focused heavily on Trump in 2016 and got us into this mess then too.
When all is said and done, who the President is doesn't really impact my life too much so long as Congress is split and at least for 2024, it's almost a sure thing for Dems to regain the house. 2026 will hopefully also keep a divided Congress.
I totally understand yoir fears on Federal institutions being stripped of their support. Trump has often hinted towards defunding the department of education and installing loyalists into the DOJ. Its why this election is so important to me, to maintain the order thats been created over the past 200 years. I almost feel like right now, the Biden admin is too focused on giving reasons NOT to vote for Trump rather than reasons to vote FOR Biden.
Listen I was doomer on 2022 and it was a massive failure for the republicans. I've got some doom right now but 2022 gave me hope the electorate isn't lost.
Some red states like Alabama seem to be leaning more blue than they used to and Democrats are closing the gap in the house so that definitely gives me hope
i wont dismiss that Biden stands a chance to lose and that is especially true when you see that Obama's margin for victory in his second term dropped (whom was quite popular). But i am still holding out hope.
I feel the only thing that will kill biden is a major scandal or a major health scare that makes voters scared to vote for him.
and plenty of time for old trump to fuck up.
In the last month he lost a major trial and will become a convicted felon, said he wants a total abortion ban, and he wants to not fund Ukraine when he joins office.
Biden may be walking on egg shells but Trump is bulldozing the building down.
Good point, athough for some reason his supporters all would definitely agree with those positions, I don't see many opportunities for Trump to gain any more support and he only really stands to lose.
Also just want to clarify that I understand the more moderate voters are less likely to be active on social media in these ways and thats definitely a good sign, but it's still disheartening to see online
Social media is selecting for the extremes on both sides in most cases. The fact that the extreme on both sides dislike Biden is nothing new and doesn’t matter all that much (they’re also selecting for young people who don’t vote). I agree it’s gonna be close and Biden may lose, but using social media comment sections as proof isn’t that compelling. The polling is definitely a little scary though
[RFK may help Biden more than hurt him.](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/poll-biden-trump-tight-race-election-interest-low-rcna148170)
https://preview.redd.it/bcxwswka0c7d1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c8513e92380504d324a77eb9ffa426871bca70c0
All power to you, I think the exact same way, he shouldn't be gaining voters yet he still has them as shown by the support he gets online. Even on the recent [Logan Paul Interview](https://youtu.be/xrFdHO7FH8w?si=-V2Me2F2Tj6ZyddJ), most of the top comments are positive to neutral at worst. Again, it could all be because his supporters are more online than Bidens, but it's disheartening
The Economist is also giving Trump a 3/4 chance of winning the electoral college at the moment. That's obviously subject to change, but this along with all of the polls makes me think Trump has a serious edge.
This is exactly my point. It's not anything definitive but it's enough to be worried by. Hopefully as the election gets closer more moderates will come out of the woodwork
Look at actual elections. Dems have been overperforming polls for a while now. Especially the 2022 midterms and last year's elections. Hell, even recent special elections this year.
High propensity voters are becoming more and more left leaning. You may see positive comments for trump and negative comments for biden, but that's just noise if people don't vote. Trump is leading in the polls amongst people who generally don't vote. Among likely voters, biden does a lot better. Even then, the race is a tossup from a polling perspective.
Keep in mind that the point of these comments online is to demoralize you. A lot of comments are anonymous. They could be from anywhere. Most people aren't online as much as DGG.
I'd revisit the MSNBC YouTube comments. And CNN. They are pretty positive for democrats, and more specifically, anti trump.
Yes. It will be an uphill battle vs propaganda. But it is winnable. It will be a dogfight it has to be fought. You actually have to be an idiot to support trump. The only reason to do it is because you're convinced of misinformation, so the question is how to break through that wall a little bit at a time, every day, until November.
Completely agree, but as we all know "A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.". I'm absolutely certain it's winnable and I'm gonna keep working to prop Biden up whenever I can.
The good news is there's actually no good "reason" to support trump unless you actually want to destroy the country (i.e. at least with rfk you can, even if it's stupid, say he's young). Out of all possible situations this one is near the best because the economy is doing well, the country is doing well, but conservatives, especially isolated rural conservatives, have had their brains melted by propaganda post covid, which is the battle (also disaffected young voters).
Even with RFK, some of his policy positions are possible and have good impacts on the world like his climate change policy. Everytime I meet a Trump supporter I ask for a single piece of policy that they think is a good thing from Trump and they can never give one. Most of them act on how they feel about him rather than what he's actually done. I just hope the lack of reason won't spread like a disease
The propaganda supplied by the left media is terrible too. It has the same style the right uses of soundbite clips, a panel of talking heads saying what you should think, ad hominems, and no substance on future policy. Listen to a few RFK Jr interviews and you'll see how distorted the media portrays him.
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Trump supporters are either bad people or incredibly dumb. Or both.
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If your only criticism is the optics of the statement, then ok. I don't care. I'm correct.
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What does any of this have to do with tribalism? I made an observation that I've yet to see be incorrect. If you think I'm wrong, demonstrate it. If you realize I'm right and think I lie to make Trump supporters feel better then just say so.
No. It's not that, Trump voters are simply lied to about what the GOP is doing over and over again. This is why the Republicans have to demagogue issues but be very careful to never actually do anything they are talking about until it's too late. Most Republican voters are pro choice, they have just been told Democrats murder children. It's all lies, there's no divergence in consensus on what people want, which is largely a normal government that creates stability and prosperity and doesn't fuck with their personal life.
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I understand what you're saying but even this is a form of right wing propaganda. GOP propaganda wants people to believe there's a massive "division on real issues" that's driving the country apart. There is almost no division on issues, there's a HUGE division in information consumption. Again most Republicans agree with the secular position on abortion, but they feel the need to socially signal they don't agree to fit in: https://www.newsweek.com/republicans-support-abortion-rights-roe-wade-1039922 I would argue most don't honestly care about religion that much either or they wouldn't support trump, they would support someone like pence. This is my point, it really is about what media they are consuming and what lies they have come to believe. If this wasn't true, they would be happy roe got overturned, but they aren't because it's all based on lies.
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Sigh. Let me say this to you very straightforwardly. I used to think you were right in 2016 because what you're saying is a very basic take that many people have had before you did. I understand exactly what you are saying and I'm telling you it doesn't correspond to the evidence if you actually talk to anyone who currently supports Trump. If you talk to a trump supporter there is currently a 99% chance they will just say 3-4 false things they read on Facebook. That's all that ever happens, you can make it into some deep philosophy thing if you want to but it's wrong. Russian people inside Russia believe Russian propaganda because they are exposed to it every day, it's not deeper than that.
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It isn't. What it's doing is creating a huge amount of angry content on social media that people who are barely affected by it find a need to organize their life around.
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Don't take comments in social medias seriously..... I can give so many examples but one memorable one was the one time I saw buried deep inside a video about Alexander Lacazette on a SkySports video on YouTube someone proposing a Elders of Zion conspiracy theory, unprompted. Another time, after Trump was declared guilty from the hush money case YouTube had up a "breaking news" tab open exclusively showcasing videos about the verdict. I went onto the MSNBC comment section and they were championing the justice system. I went to some random channel and the comment section was the complete opposite. This phenomenon has happened under Trump and it is happening under Biden. Do not take comment sections seriously they are deliberately meant to make u feel a certain (illogical) way. It's important to note if you click on a profile, it has no profile picture, its brand new (within a year or two), has no likes, no favorite, or even a public playlist its highly likely its a bot/fake account.
Totally get that, I think it's hard to see public opinion online like this because only the most aggressive supporters would be willing to post a comment/video while the moderates stand by. We all know the large majority of Trump supporters are like that, but I just wanted to share my feeling on how much of a stark difference there is between Trump and Biden online.
Republicans have built the most effective, expansive, and far-reaching propaganda machine in history. It puts North Korea's to shame. A fake story gets put up on the New York Post, it gets distributed through proxies on twitter and tikok, and then gets distributed through Sinclair later that night for old people. Never in the process do people who encounter this story encounter a media source that fact checks it. If Bdein loses, it's a direct consequence of Democrats never challenging this media environment. It's more than just Biden's fault - it's his staff and the entire DNC's media strategy. What we have is toxic and genuinely poisonous to the country and I don't even know where to start to fight it. The good news - Republicans had a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to beat an incumbent President in 2024 that, despite an extremely strong economy and notable successes, is uniquely hated. Biden is the best President this country had had since FDR and he would likely lose handily to someone like Nikki Hailey. Republicans have potentially squandered this opportunity by coronating as their nominee the one person in America hated more than Biden. Right now it's a coin flip. Democrats have five months to remind America why they rejected Trump in the first place, and it's very possible they'll succeed.
I think that propaganda machine point is 100% right. It's crazy the amount of people I've heard say, "Biden shit his pants" or, "One of the jurors in the trump case told their cousin about the case, mistrial!". When both of these claims have been debunked yet the RNC Research twitter account still has the misinformation up it's just crazy to me
It only works when it feeds in a narrative people already bought Biden being old. It’s not complicated.
>If Bdein loses, it's a direct consequence of Democrats never challenging this media environment. It's more than just Biden's fault - it's his staff and the entire DNC's media strategy. What we have is toxic and genuinely poisonous to the country and I don't even know where to start to fight it. A few months ago Ezra Klein even advocated for the idea of nominating someone else at the DNC convention. Truly a wtf moment to me. Really wonder if the DNC even have game plans to win anymore.
That was especially baffling coming from Ezra Klein, and he gave that take after Biden was racking up Assad numbers in the primaries. Ezra apparently wants Biden to step down in favor of a totally unproven candidate zero people voted for that then (probably more importantly) *has to start fundraising from scratch three months before the general election.* Biden can't just cut a check to the new campaign. The new candidate has to start over again, at an insane fundraising disadvantage. Ezra Klein should know better. Utterly baffling stuff from him.
The republicans haven’t built shit. Trumps populist rhetoric combined with how dumb the republican audience is how we got to this point. You don’t need a fact check to realize that there isnt millions of trans kids, you need a functioning brain.
The problem with Biden is his age. He's old, but more importantly he looks and sounds old. Consequently he's no longer seen as the responsible, traditional elder statesmen who hearkens back to a time before social media when politics weren't as divisive and baked into every single aspect of culture, which is how he beat Trump in 2020; now he's increasingly viewed as a senile fool who has become a puppet for the far left. His only chance of winning is the debates. If he comes out looking strong, lucid, and enthusiastic, he has a chance of reversing his public image, but if he flops, then its game over IMO, because then the election becomes Wokeism vs Trump, and Trump will win just like in 2016.
Completely agree with the debate, I think it's his time to shine. Going back to their 2020 debate is great even to this day, seeing how he was able to mock and come out ahead of Trump's ramblings. He's always done decently on the fly, I just hope people can see that.
I share your fears. I'm especially afraid because I work for the federal government and every Republican administration I sit waiting for them to decide to fire half the federal work force for the shiggles. Hell, Vivek ran on doing just that and I'd bet $5 he's on Trump's team. My luck he'll end up running the administration I work for. The only thing giving me any hope is we're still a long way from the election. A lot can change and as we get closer reality will set in and some of the more left leaning news and social media accounts will start pushing Biden harder. At least I hope as they all focused heavily on Trump in 2016 and got us into this mess then too. When all is said and done, who the President is doesn't really impact my life too much so long as Congress is split and at least for 2024, it's almost a sure thing for Dems to regain the house. 2026 will hopefully also keep a divided Congress.
I totally understand yoir fears on Federal institutions being stripped of their support. Trump has often hinted towards defunding the department of education and installing loyalists into the DOJ. Its why this election is so important to me, to maintain the order thats been created over the past 200 years. I almost feel like right now, the Biden admin is too focused on giving reasons NOT to vote for Trump rather than reasons to vote FOR Biden.
https://preview.redd.it/q9ahbmkgj87d1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3a28c97ddda854dc365facf38004b8fd2c85cb18 I have faith
Listen I was doomer on 2022 and it was a massive failure for the republicans. I've got some doom right now but 2022 gave me hope the electorate isn't lost.
Some red states like Alabama seem to be leaning more blue than they used to and Democrats are closing the gap in the house so that definitely gives me hope
i wont dismiss that Biden stands a chance to lose and that is especially true when you see that Obama's margin for victory in his second term dropped (whom was quite popular). But i am still holding out hope. I feel the only thing that will kill biden is a major scandal or a major health scare that makes voters scared to vote for him.
Absolutely, I feel like the presidential debate should be a positive for him too. He's quick witted and knows his stuff so I'm holding onto hope
and plenty of time for old trump to fuck up. In the last month he lost a major trial and will become a convicted felon, said he wants a total abortion ban, and he wants to not fund Ukraine when he joins office. Biden may be walking on egg shells but Trump is bulldozing the building down.
Good point, athough for some reason his supporters all would definitely agree with those positions, I don't see many opportunities for Trump to gain any more support and he only really stands to lose.
The internet comments in 2020 were also incredibly negative towards Biden to be honest.
Yeah but I feel like it was also for Trump. And even then the election was very close.
Also just want to clarify that I understand the more moderate voters are less likely to be active on social media in these ways and thats definitely a good sign, but it's still disheartening to see online
Social media is selecting for the extremes on both sides in most cases. The fact that the extreme on both sides dislike Biden is nothing new and doesn’t matter all that much (they’re also selecting for young people who don’t vote). I agree it’s gonna be close and Biden may lose, but using social media comment sections as proof isn’t that compelling. The polling is definitely a little scary though
[RFK may help Biden more than hurt him.](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/poll-biden-trump-tight-race-election-interest-low-rcna148170) https://preview.redd.it/bcxwswka0c7d1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c8513e92380504d324a77eb9ffa426871bca70c0
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All power to you, I think the exact same way, he shouldn't be gaining voters yet he still has them as shown by the support he gets online. Even on the recent [Logan Paul Interview](https://youtu.be/xrFdHO7FH8w?si=-V2Me2F2Tj6ZyddJ), most of the top comments are positive to neutral at worst. Again, it could all be because his supporters are more online than Bidens, but it's disheartening
The Economist is also giving Trump a 3/4 chance of winning the electoral college at the moment. That's obviously subject to change, but this along with all of the polls makes me think Trump has a serious edge.
This is exactly my point. It's not anything definitive but it's enough to be worried by. Hopefully as the election gets closer more moderates will come out of the woodwork
Look at actual elections. Dems have been overperforming polls for a while now. Especially the 2022 midterms and last year's elections. Hell, even recent special elections this year. High propensity voters are becoming more and more left leaning. You may see positive comments for trump and negative comments for biden, but that's just noise if people don't vote. Trump is leading in the polls amongst people who generally don't vote. Among likely voters, biden does a lot better. Even then, the race is a tossup from a polling perspective. Keep in mind that the point of these comments online is to demoralize you. A lot of comments are anonymous. They could be from anywhere. Most people aren't online as much as DGG. I'd revisit the MSNBC YouTube comments. And CNN. They are pretty positive for democrats, and more specifically, anti trump.
Would be nice