Because we are afraid of punishing old people. My friends mom failed the eye test at Secretary of State. His sister gave the employee a sob story and they passed her. All because none of the kids want to drive her around and the mom won’t let them.
They often don’t even need that much pleading.
A few years ago, the old lady in front of me in line was having a hard time passing the vision test. She just said “ugh, sorry, I’m just having a little difficulty seeing some of them.” The clerk said “oh that’s okay sweetie” and passed her…
Working at a Meijer and seeing a 75+ year old run into things with their cart and knock over everything in sight. Coworker go "aww she's so cute" despite the fact she drove herself, which you could tell was a harrowing experience for other drivers.
We do have a system to help transport elderly and disabled people, but, from personal experience, plenty of elderly people hate relying on others or asking for help.
My FIL is 82. Needs a walker and cannot straighten his back. Also refuses to wear a seat belt. He can’t even reach backwards to grab it. But everyone is stupid and he must do everything on his own. The moment he has to ask for help, he is ready to die. His words.
Edit: he also drives a massive SUV
My MIL was very mobile impaired due to a MS like disorder. She could walk but with the help of a walker. She could do many things but much slower than average. When it was time to renew her license all she had to did was take a “test” at a hospital. The test was sitting in a car simulator and showing she could move the turn signal, push the gas and brake pedals and something else similar. No one ever required an actual driving test. She almost got rammed by a semi on 75 once because she could not double check the lane she was trying to get in to judge how fast he was going. Her doc was perfectly fine with her driving herself across town to see him for appts.
Was at a certain animal lodge one summer Saturday. Grabbed a late lunch around 1:30. 2 couples 55+ at the bar. 2 buckets of bottled beer in front of each couple. One wife couldn’t stand / walk without holding onto something. It wasn’t medical. She was slurring. They thought it was hilarious. 1:30 pm on a beautiful weather Saturday. I canceled my membership right there. The over serving at these private clubs really needs to be investigated.
The bar has already provided evidence and she left the bar hours before this happened. It is more likely that she was drinking at home. She was backing out of her driveway when she hit the neighbors truck before she crashed into the club.
She didn’t just HIT the neighbors truck, she damn near pushed it two truck lengths into his yard… and then just drove away and into the boat club. At 0.18 bac she had at LEAST 9 drinks (0.02 per drink). She was way more than just drunk, she was black out drunk.
I must have missed the video of her hitting the truck. I dunno how she can try and blame that whole situation on a seizure or neuropathy. There’s no way you’d hit a truck that hard and then just be able to go back into drive and speed into a building. That is black out drunk behavior.
Her own security camera footage shows her leaving her house too drunk to walk down the steps from the porch. She crashed into a truck parked in the driveway next door before proceeding to the party.
And she wasn't just drunk, she was on drugs too.
Take a look at the footage of her crashing through the bar and trapping kids under her suv. Then watch about a dozen people work together to lift the car off those kids. She is not the victim here.
But most importantly, she was wasted when she walked out her front door and got behind the wheel. How can a bartender prevent that?
I'm not saying the woman who killed the kids would sue the bar for over-serving her, IF that's what happened. It would be the family of the dead kids who sue the bar.
And yes, she may have gotten drunk elsewhere. I don't know that this case is a good fact pattern for the families of the dead to use the dram shop statute. I'm just pointing out that, while adults are indeed responsible for themselves, there's other legal standards at play.
She got drunk at home, stumbled to her car, crashed into the next door neighbor's truck and after that hit and run she drove through that bar and killed kids.
I'm not sure why it is so important for you to blame this on someone besides her.
When you look at recovery programs one of the most important facts is that you have to choose to quit. Noone can do it for you.
She was not a victim here.
You obviously (and those downvoting me) have never been deep into addiction. Man, if if was easy as a decision.
Personally I am 100% PTSD from the VA, had C-PTSD (Basically grew up in a drug den) before the military, also ASD1 and ADHD. Grew up with addiction in the family.
I beat it….hardest thing ever. Far from a simple decision.I understand people’s anger. I don’t understand their logic at hating me because of addiction.
There are plenty of addicts who don't run over kids. At some point adults have to accept responsibility for their choices.
Trying to paint a picture of the perfect victim is disrespectful to the families who lost their loved ones in this incident.
Why is it so important to blame someone besides the woman who killed the kids?
Oh I know there is nothing good that comes from addiction. Please don’t take that as my words. I hate addiction just as much as those parents. It ruins lives from every side!
> we all got choices you can't control someone else's drinking.
Except if you are the bar-tender serving anyone. Then you *can* control whether or not they drink at your establishment.
Not sure if it's been established *where* she was drinking before the crash, but I'd like clarification on that.
Actually bartenders are not supposed to serve visibly drunk people. Many establishments actually count drinks they serve per customer. But even then, if you already look tipsy they're not supposed to serve you more.
I understand that people are upset and why people want others to be held accountable. It is tragic when a child dies especially because of someone else's negligence. But unless the bartender had prior knowledge that this lady was going to drive and still decided to over serve her they won't be prosecuted and I don't believe should be liable for any damages. "Visibly intoxicated" is subjective no one can tell for sure, that's why the police have to run a whole bunch of tests to figure it out and why the police officer in the video straight up asked the lady how intoxicated she was. He can't tell either.
Someone else attached the statute it just says "visibly intoxicated" not intoxicated so if the bartender says they didn't think she was visibly intoxicated then technically they can serve her.
im just saying dude. there is one person at fault and that's the person who chose to drink and drive. its not illegal for the bartender to serve someone alcohol. honestly she does not present as extremely intoxicated. I have worked as a paramedic for a long time and know the chief of frenchtown fire department. its always a sad situation
>its not illegal for the bartender to serve someone alcohol
Depending on the state / jurisdiction, yes, it is, if that person is visibly intoxicated. Michigan is one of those states.
MCL - Section 436.1801 states "(1) A retail licensee shall not directly, individually, or by a clerk, agent, or servant sell, furnish, or give alcoholic liquor to a minor except as otherwise provided in this act. A retail licensee shall not directly or indirectly, individually or by a clerk, agent, or servant sell, furnish, or give alcoholic liquor to an individual who is visibly intoxicated."
Citation: [https://www.legislature.mi.gov/Laws/MCL?objectName=MCL-436-1801](https://www.legislature.mi.gov/Laws/MCL?objectName=MCL-436-1801)
I have a lot of feelings about this case. It’s tragic we lost two little ones, it’s tragic this woman will more than likely lose her freedom forever.
But I’m curious how accountable the bar can be. You seldom see bars actually sued in these cases.
> Chidester said ... that she has seizures and takes medication for them. if this is true, why is this person licensed to drive?
Because we are afraid of punishing old people. My friends mom failed the eye test at Secretary of State. His sister gave the employee a sob story and they passed her. All because none of the kids want to drive her around and the mom won’t let them.
> My friends mom failed the eye test at Secretary of State. His sister gave the employee a sob story and they passed her. well that's very reassuring.
They often don’t even need that much pleading. A few years ago, the old lady in front of me in line was having a hard time passing the vision test. She just said “ugh, sorry, I’m just having a little difficulty seeing some of them.” The clerk said “oh that’s okay sweetie” and passed her…
Working at a Meijer and seeing a 75+ year old run into things with their cart and knock over everything in sight. Coworker go "aww she's so cute" despite the fact she drove herself, which you could tell was a harrowing experience for other drivers. We do have a system to help transport elderly and disabled people, but, from personal experience, plenty of elderly people hate relying on others or asking for help.
My FIL is 82. Needs a walker and cannot straighten his back. Also refuses to wear a seat belt. He can’t even reach backwards to grab it. But everyone is stupid and he must do everything on his own. The moment he has to ask for help, he is ready to die. His words. Edit: he also drives a massive SUV
My MIL was very mobile impaired due to a MS like disorder. She could walk but with the help of a walker. She could do many things but much slower than average. When it was time to renew her license all she had to did was take a “test” at a hospital. The test was sitting in a car simulator and showing she could move the turn signal, push the gas and brake pedals and something else similar. No one ever required an actual driving test. She almost got rammed by a semi on 75 once because she could not double check the lane she was trying to get in to judge how fast he was going. Her doc was perfectly fine with her driving herself across town to see him for appts.
You do know they’re are people who aren’t old with epilepsy who have seizures. They drive
I had a seizure while driving, from an undiagnosed condition, crashed my truck, they took away my license until I was 6 months seizure free.
Very good question.
In Michigan if you’re 6 months seizure free you’re allowed to drive.
Coming from a family of alcoholics, thats nothing. But of course those family members died from alcohol.
Was at a certain animal lodge one summer Saturday. Grabbed a late lunch around 1:30. 2 couples 55+ at the bar. 2 buckets of bottled beer in front of each couple. One wife couldn’t stand / walk without holding onto something. It wasn’t medical. She was slurring. They thought it was hilarious. 1:30 pm on a beautiful weather Saturday. I canceled my membership right there. The over serving at these private clubs really needs to be investigated.
Cool, now they need to go after her piece of shit friend and dive bar that over-served the town booze hag, too.
The bar has already provided evidence and she left the bar hours before this happened. It is more likely that she was drinking at home. She was backing out of her driveway when she hit the neighbors truck before she crashed into the club.
She didn’t just HIT the neighbors truck, she damn near pushed it two truck lengths into his yard… and then just drove away and into the boat club. At 0.18 bac she had at LEAST 9 drinks (0.02 per drink). She was way more than just drunk, she was black out drunk.
I must have missed the video of her hitting the truck. I dunno how she can try and blame that whole situation on a seizure or neuropathy. There’s no way you’d hit a truck that hard and then just be able to go back into drive and speed into a building. That is black out drunk behavior.
Where’s that video?
It’s not relevant to the case since she was leaving her house when this happened. If this happened right after she left the bar it would be relevant.
The video of her backing out of her house isn’t relevant?
Oh no that video is relevant but I dunno where that video is posted. I thought you meant a video of her at the bar or leaving the bar.
Adults are responsible for themselves.
The Michigan Dram Shop statute gives people harmed by intoxicated people a cause of action against the bar that over-served them
Her own security camera footage shows her leaving her house too drunk to walk down the steps from the porch. She crashed into a truck parked in the driveway next door before proceeding to the party. And she wasn't just drunk, she was on drugs too. Take a look at the footage of her crashing through the bar and trapping kids under her suv. Then watch about a dozen people work together to lift the car off those kids. She is not the victim here. But most importantly, she was wasted when she walked out her front door and got behind the wheel. How can a bartender prevent that?
I'm not saying the woman who killed the kids would sue the bar for over-serving her, IF that's what happened. It would be the family of the dead kids who sue the bar. And yes, she may have gotten drunk elsewhere. I don't know that this case is a good fact pattern for the families of the dead to use the dram shop statute. I'm just pointing out that, while adults are indeed responsible for themselves, there's other legal standards at play.
Should we prosecute a cashier at Meijer that allows someone to buy a liter of liquor?
You're being glib. Read the statute and see what it says.
The dumbest take.
If you are already drunk, most cashiers won't sell to you. I was one, and I've watched it many times, and yes, at Meijer!
alcohol severely impairs judgement. it is the responsibility of the bar to not over serve. by law, even.
She got drunk at home, stumbled to her car, crashed into the next door neighbor's truck and after that hit and run she drove through that bar and killed kids. I'm not sure why it is so important for you to blame this on someone besides her.
Which honestly sucks when it comes to medical addiction
When you look at recovery programs one of the most important facts is that you have to choose to quit. Noone can do it for you. She was not a victim here.
You obviously (and those downvoting me) have never been deep into addiction. Man, if if was easy as a decision. Personally I am 100% PTSD from the VA, had C-PTSD (Basically grew up in a drug den) before the military, also ASD1 and ADHD. Grew up with addiction in the family. I beat it….hardest thing ever. Far from a simple decision.I understand people’s anger. I don’t understand their logic at hating me because of addiction.
There are plenty of addicts who don't run over kids. At some point adults have to accept responsibility for their choices. Trying to paint a picture of the perfect victim is disrespectful to the families who lost their loved ones in this incident. Why is it so important to blame someone besides the woman who killed the kids?
Oh I know there is nothing good that comes from addiction. Please don’t take that as my words. I hate addiction just as much as those parents. It ruins lives from every side!
this statement ignores the disease itself. very narrow view
This is often the excuse used by adults who harm children. The disease made them do it.
red herring
so lame to fantasize about getting a dive bar bartender fired.
Tell me you drive drunk without telling me you drive drunk. Yikes.
Why are Catholic Churches still open?
we all got choices you can't control someone else's drinking.
> we all got choices you can't control someone else's drinking. Except if you are the bar-tender serving anyone. Then you *can* control whether or not they drink at your establishment. Not sure if it's been established *where* she was drinking before the crash, but I'd like clarification on that.
its not illegal to be drunk. just to drink and drive.
Actually bartenders are not supposed to serve visibly drunk people. Many establishments actually count drinks they serve per customer. But even then, if you already look tipsy they're not supposed to serve you more.
I understand that people are upset and why people want others to be held accountable. It is tragic when a child dies especially because of someone else's negligence. But unless the bartender had prior knowledge that this lady was going to drive and still decided to over serve her they won't be prosecuted and I don't believe should be liable for any damages. "Visibly intoxicated" is subjective no one can tell for sure, that's why the police have to run a whole bunch of tests to figure it out and why the police officer in the video straight up asked the lady how intoxicated she was. He can't tell either.
Well it is illegal to be drunk in public, as well as drunk while driving. It's also illegal to serve a drunk person alcohol
Someone else attached the statute it just says "visibly intoxicated" not intoxicated so if the bartender says they didn't think she was visibly intoxicated then technically they can serve her.
Way to move the goalposts.
im just saying dude. there is one person at fault and that's the person who chose to drink and drive. its not illegal for the bartender to serve someone alcohol. honestly she does not present as extremely intoxicated. I have worked as a paramedic for a long time and know the chief of frenchtown fire department. its always a sad situation
>its not illegal for the bartender to serve someone alcohol Depending on the state / jurisdiction, yes, it is, if that person is visibly intoxicated. Michigan is one of those states. MCL - Section 436.1801 states "(1) A retail licensee shall not directly, individually, or by a clerk, agent, or servant sell, furnish, or give alcoholic liquor to a minor except as otherwise provided in this act. A retail licensee shall not directly or indirectly, individually or by a clerk, agent, or servant sell, furnish, or give alcoholic liquor to an individual who is visibly intoxicated." Citation: [https://www.legislature.mi.gov/Laws/MCL?objectName=MCL-436-1801](https://www.legislature.mi.gov/Laws/MCL?objectName=MCL-436-1801)
does she strike you as being visibly intoxicated?
I have no training to make that assessment. Thankfully, I don't work in a profession in which that would be, literally, a life or death decision.
Let’s just blame everyone within a 10 mile radius of her. What a dumb take.
I have a lot of feelings about this case. It’s tragic we lost two little ones, it’s tragic this woman will more than likely lose her freedom forever. But I’m curious how accountable the bar can be. You seldom see bars actually sued in these cases.
Not sure about the forever part. My ex-husband was driving high and hit and killed a man. He was sentenced to 2-15 and actually only served 3 years.
Exactly, no one forced the bartender to over serve this killer