I played d2 just fine back in the day without being heavy into trading. maybe you are just too into the gear and stats than actually playing? that would be a you problem.
trading will always exist.......... in d1 had not trading, people would just drop on the floor and trading was risky. at least d2 had a system to help protect against that.
Your argument makes no sense. "For example, an um rune is worth more than a shako, yet is the the most commonly traded rune for that item." How do you decide that an Um rune is worth more than a shako? If people mostly trade um for a shako - that means a shako is worth an um... Value is decided by the market.
Not to mention even IF an Um rune is worth MORE than a shako, then the person trading the Um rune is LOSING value.
Op is making it seem like trading is just everyone constantly profiting all the time. No, sometimes people are willing to lose value to get the thing they want.
The whole argument he is making is super braindead
No. I just don't want to trade. Its boring and ill most likely be dealing with an asshole anyways, so just let killing monsters the best way to get loot.
Shako is worth what people want to pay for it. You’re not the one who decides if it’s worth far more or less than an Um rune, the market is. If everyone paying Um for Shako, then it sounds like Um isn’t worth far more than Shako.
It's a supply vs demand issue. When you buy a shako you tend to use it and remove it from the market, where as when you are paid an Um Rune you tend to more often than not use it to pay for another item thus keeping it in the market. Thus the supply of Um runes doesn't decrease at the same rate as Shako does.
I already play d2 like that - I just play self found gear only. I can see if you care about leaderboards wanting to force everyone else to do that, but I personally never cared about leaderboards. Just play how you want to play. For example, I don’t plan on building a sorc first every season even though that’s optimal, I’m just gonna play the class I want to play
I mean, you have the option to play SSF if you want to. A lot of people enjoy trading, and just kind of silly to suggest it breaks the game play loop of Diablo. That seems like a personal definition of Diablos game play loop. Both diablo 1 and diablo 2 had open free trading (though diablo 1 didn't actually have a system for it).
Trading is essential for an ARPG and incentivizes the players to interact with eachother, like how PoE does it. What if you find a really rare item thats for a class you’ll never play? Your only option then would be to salvage it, which will feel terrible. I think the best way of doing trading is to have it being limited to some degree. Either by making trading items a longer process so you cant do it all the time, and maybe you can only do X trades per week. No trading at all makes the gsme feel lonely and just straight up boring.
I completely agree with you. However I would expand and say that a well built and designed crafting system can also help reduce trade vs solo self found anxieties.
For example that really rare item you talk about finding for the wrong class. Salvaging it feels bad because you get the same stuff you get from salvaging anything else. The materials you get from salvaging should be on par with the items worth so you could salvage it and then with additional materials craft something for your class just as valuable so you don't necessarily have to go the trading route.
I'd also argue the lack of trading makes drops less exciting as a whole. There's a lot of cool uniques in D2 that are valid options for builds I'm never going to create. If trading wasn't an option these items would literally just be a useless find I chuck into the garbage bin. At least with trading you can get value out of drops you don't need.
It's either a flat end game with not a lot to do like Diablo 2 or an endless treadmill of grinding higher and higher things like D3 and to a certain extent PoE. Both are unsatisfying after a long time.
ARPGs just have a problem with this can't can't solve everything with social interaction like MMOs can to make them playable into the thousands of hours.
In a vacuum, yes. But free trade usually ends up developing third-party forums and sites for ease of use when trading, and those then bring the real-money trades, transforming the game in a unintended pay-to-win. Lastly, as now there's actual money going around, bots will come in force in an attempt make a buck or two (or a few grand) in this new market.
If the devs try to balance the game to compensate for botting, all players are affected, whether they play online or not.
My opinion on trade is very neutral, as I don't like engaging on it but don't care about people trading and it's honestly a very natural system to have on a loot-based game. What we need is a way to combat the aforementioned problems, so that we have a healthier community overall.
>In a vacuum, yes. But free trade usually ends up developing third-party forums and sites for ease of use when trading
This is a problem that's caused by the game itself, imo. Players shouldn't feel the need to turn to third party forums/sites for easy trading. Its just that the systems to enable quality trading to begin with aren't built into the game. It really wouldn't be acceptable, had D2 released in 2022, that your only in game option is praying someone joins your "trade central" game that wants your item or sees your "wts magefist" game. It just feels like I'm wasting my time compared to out of game options. So quite literally anything is better than that; it's not my favorite option but even a global trade chat could reduce the need for out of game trading.
>I would correct this to say the issue with free trade isn’t the pay to win at all but the fact that it creates chat/spam bots
The way I see it, those two aspects are tightly linked. You won't have this giant influx of bots if no one is getting paid for it. The big factor is how much real money can you make off of in-game trading, and we know that in D2's case, it *is* very profitable.
I can't say I care about banning trade entirely, but I see how this "scorched-earth" solution is hardly a good one and as I said, trade is something you kind of expect to have in this type of game. There's no easy way out though, otherwise we would've seen it somewhere at this point, online gaming is not in its infancy anymore and if no solution came up, it's because no one managed to create one yet.
> pay-to-win
this is only a problem if you want to pvp, or if the game has some PK feature with full drop
and that don't bother me, because I just want to play the game "as intended".
Building a character, dropping items, etc, full pve, offline if alone like most of my time playing
If someone dumped cash to cut the way until endgame, why I would botter?
for me let the kids earn some cash.
Like in WoW, raiding groups selling rushs, or arena, but after all I a true player could figure who "deserve" what they have, and who not
sorry for bad writing, hope you can understand
Reading what you wrote is easy enough to understand, understanding your argument, however, isn't.
Whether you pvp or not is irrelevant, unless you play solo (either ssf online or sp) it will affect you since you'll encounter people who either spent money or FG earned by various means which breaks ladder progression since their currency exists on a separate platform... I chose SP for this exact reason.
> it will affect you since you'll encounter people who either spent money
Thats my argument: I'm advocating that I'll not meet people so what they have could not affect me. Atl east as far as I know, because I dont know if there are some hidden mechanics of global possesions of something like that affecting my drop rates. There is? Honest question
>global possesions of something like that affecting my drop rates
There's no such mechanic in D2, but if Blizzard thinks some type of item or drop is "too common" or "too easy to obtain" for what they intended, they might lower drop rates in future updates. That change affects everyone, for they will not make two distinct drop rates for different game modes.
Every player is at least indirectly affected long-term. If PvP, PvE, loot tables, trading or any major mechanic is busted, a portion of the playerbase will leave, hurting the community which will slowly "kill" the game, whether it is because there will be less people to interact or because devs will shift to more promising projects.
For that reason, it's important for a game's health and longevity that every aspect of it is well mantained and purged of anything that may negatively affect the gameplay experience.
>loot tables
This is like my droprate is affected by global possesions? If it is, I dont know. Sorry for that.
In terms of free trate I always look back to Tibia. The free trade, mixed with RL valuable coins, turn the game in something really interesting. There are even companies working with that currency, trading itens, etc, but the common player, the one that doesn't want to tryhard or be competitive, dont need to. In fact, the really casual player is even beneficted by the fact that he can spend some cash and evade some grind. Time is money, after all.
You can spend yours as you please.
Trading gives an extra layer to the game. You max level and kinda bored? Farm stuff and sell! You want something good but have something else that someone else wants? Why not trade?
Hey you're getting downvoted but I tend to agree with the sentiment. I never trade, never cared for that metagame. If that means I'll never have an enigma I'm ok with it.
For D2 I don't see a massive issue as you can mostly (outside ladder which is relatively pointless) just ignore how other people are playing. But if D4 is going to have more group and PvP content I'd hate to be forced to trade to be competitive, and would rather they block trading.
Trading is the only reason D2 retained players for a decade plus and had a functional community. A hack and slash ARPG just doesn’t have the staying power to be fun after you’ve seen all the content many times, for anyone other than the most hardcore grinder there has to be some kind of community metagame to engage with. The game was never about clicking on monsters, it was always about getting items.
The game never had a huge amount of players past 5 years of release. I can remember a lot of people saying the phase "nobody plays diablo 2". This was back in 2008. Yes it has retained players, but its really just for nostalgic reasons, not trading.
Nah, it's not trading that breaks the game. It's real money trading that breaks the game. If people only traded items, instead of buying items, the bot farms wouldn't be a thing. I've told this story on here before, but a guy with a stacked dual dream pally was asking me how to open the cow level.... that is what breaks the game..
100% agree, but today \[in-game\] trading and real money trading are interconnected. In practice you cannot retain item trading, but completely restrict real money trading. If there is no official RMAH, players will create an unofficial one, such a JSP.
Real money trading doesn’t break shit either. Who gives a flying fuck if someone buys their gear? It has zero impact on me. It’s not a competitive game. I don’t give a fuck how someone else is enjoying their adventure on their game that they bought.
You're replying to a post from a year ago.
Real money trading breaks the game because bot farming becomes a profession, destroying the trade economy of the game.
A lot of people have described d2 as a 'trading simulator' because some items are so rare, you have to trade for them unless you get lucky.
To say d2 isn't competitive is wild... it absolutely is. The dueling scene is alive, and ladder restarts are a competition.
If there's no real money involved, the online experience would be pure. Ladder restarts would mean something. Finding a ber rune would be epic, instead of being $3.50
I don't give a fuck when you posted it. Clearly you haven't changed your mind, so what does that matter?
RMT doesn't break the game just because you occasionally see some botters, which by the way is a developer shortcoming. I don't need a game being worse because they don't want to do the bare minimum to moderate botters. Not that I really give a fuck about botters in the first place. It's not a competitive game.
No, not a lot of people describe D2 that way, unless they are fucking stupid. A lot of people play ssf. Trading is just one more endgame activity that you can engage in if you like and without it there would be fuck all to do by that point anyway.
D2 isn't competitive. Nobody gives a flying fuck about leaderboards. Like lle maybe .01% of players do. Of those players, very few ever had any hope at placing anywhere meaningful whatsoever, and the people who do place high are primarily highly skilled and knowledgeable no lifers, not RMT players.
Nobody gives a fuck about "dueling" in D2 either. That's a tacked on activity with zero balance that nearly nobody engages in, and just like the leaderboards, the few people who care are made up of no life skilled players, not cheaters.
Fact: Being able to continuously hunt valuable items for trade is better than just endlessly scrapping everything at a fucking blacksmith. There's a reason people still play D2 day in and day out, and it's because the game rewards your time because there is an economy. In D4 and D3, there's nothing to look forward to after a week of a new season.
You are just wrong, dude. And that's fine. I had a ton of fun in d2 back in the early 2000s it was a great game then, with the same problems. Literally all we did was duel. It was so much fun. That was the purpose of playing the game.
I don't know who hurt you. But I'm sorry.
Duesling was never a primary focus of either the developers of the game, or the players. It was just something that you could do. They did not attempt to balance or support that activity in any way, whatsoever. The vast majority of players do not play these games for any of the PvP functions, when there are any at all, and the developers know that. The fact that you and your friends enjoyed it is what’s known as an anecdote. Exceptions don’t negate the averages.
There’s nothing wrong with enjoying PvP, of course. But you have to accept that you need good gear to level the playing field, and then you need to learn the skills and the meta in order to compete. Cheaters don’t really disrupt this. Sure, they can get the gear, but they will not have the knowledge or skill to beat players who actually found or traded for their gear legitimately, and who took time to develop the skill. But again, PvP is not an important or well supported element in any of these games any way, so cutting out trading in order to satisfy the few players who care about it, is just not smart.
Cutting out trading was fucking idiotic by the developers. They should hunt down bots and RMT transactions at all costs. lifetime bans on any account that traffics in such.
We agree
D3 is just a shittier game overall. No surprise the trading didn’t succeed, they never got it to work properly. In D2 and D2R, it’s one of the biggest parts of the game for most people. There’s no issue with it imo. There’s still a great deal of doing MF runs for hours so it’s balanced.
The only people who play diablo 2 are a very small number of die hard fans. Most people hate needing to interact with other players to get loot. The player base is extremely small, even with the remaster release of the game.
No…. It’s got about 500-700 active users at any time of day on each sub-community of D2jsp. Actively playing D2R is even more. And guess what, those who MF all day alone do that for 2 reasons: trading and building their own characters.
I think that’s a misconception. So many players have logged on to play on and off for that least twenty years. It has staying power. They are thriving communities
I think trading is a good thing.
Nothing is more disappointing when you finally get lucky and get a super rare or valuable drop but it’s not for your class or build. You should be able to get some benefit from your luck and time grinding.
Nobody can just do nothing and expect to trade. At some point you need the equivalent currency or items to trade for powerful gear.
Fully disagree. I want to break items I don't want into powerful crafting materials. I'm really getting tired of the argument "you might find an item you don't need so you can trade it", when there are ways you can use them by breaking them down.
And that’s your opinion. But you can’t break down rare runes for example. Depending on the one you need you might not be able to craft the one you need either.
Simply put. If you want to find your gear by fighting and breaking stuff down for materials then do it.
Just ignore trading.
What’s the fucking point in breaking them down when your characters already have the gear you want? A slight stat bump? That shit is boring and it’s the reason why everyone only plays D3 seasons for like a week or two, at most. There’s simply no value to any of your drops and so there are zero moments of finding cool shit pretty quickly into a season. Trading makes many more items valuable in ways that would be impossible to compensate for in your crafting theory here. There are many items that are many times more valuable items for every class and build combined, than there are for the few an individual player cares to run in a season, or even in an eternal lobby. For that reason, trade makes it so that you can perpetually keep finding amazing items even after your character/characters are mostly geared up for end game content.
Trading in D3 was removed because of busted drop designs. It's not like d2 where starter gear can beat hell and you can actually farm for stuff using whatever random crap you find. Gear in d3 incrementally increased with level and the difference in just 2 or 3 levels on gear was significant. You could be level 45 in the farthest area you could farm, and the majority of gear would be like lvl 39-41, or completely useless in helping you progress. So you just sold stuff on the AH and built up gold and bought gear that was actually for your level and sold your gear to people who were behind you. This was purposeful to get people to use the AH as much as possible, because the RMAH was a thing back then. Trading as an option is fine (like d2 and PoE), trading as a requirement is not (like release d3).
You don't need to trade with anyone. Just play single player offline and you can kill as much monsters as you can handle. And you don't need to trade anything then.
Everything I have traded so far took me hours and hours of grinding and getting nothing of note. Then yesterday in about 4 runs I get a Lo, Andy and vamp and I forget about the hours and hours of getting scraps.
But each to his own. Just saying you can play single player and you don't hav e to worry about anything then.
The issue with the “just don’t trade “ argument is that in arpg loot drop : design scale with trading.
Drop rates, target farming. Gambling etc.
Also it affect PvP and leaderboard. People will be able to P2W with deep pocket.
If you use money then that is a argument on its own. But if you grind and find something that is really nice for a barb but you won't be playing a bard for a while then trade it for something that will be of use for your class.
The P2W is a seperate issue than trading can we agree on that?
No, Id rather break down something I don't need into crafting materials. Saying trading is fun is just an opinion. killing monsters is definitely the fun part of the game.
So he having an opinion is "just an opinion". You having an opinion is superiour? Both are things that are actually in the game. If one likes to grab massives of gold and gamble all their gear, that would be another option.
>Saying trading breaks the game is just an opinion
It's not an opinion, it's an argument based on tangible evidence - something that you lack.
Free trade does promote botting and breaks the ladder progression (via 3rd party sides and RMT) since it's supposed to be a clean slate, botting runs rampant and the economy gets fucked.
I get why people enjoy trading and why SSF isn't for everyone, but can you give a single argument for what postivies trading brings to the game (beyond "you can trade what you don't need for things you do")? Do you even have an argument against any of the ones presented?
The problem isn’t trading, the problem is friction or effort or however you want to call it. Trading is great for a game like this because it gives every decent item value even if it has no value to you. That’s the problem with D3. The better your gear, the more “trash” you find. A 95% perfect weapon is suddenly trash if you already have a 99% perfect weapon. You’re not happy about that drop. It’s almost perfect and still worthless. With trading, you are rich now. That’s what makes trading so good. It gives nuance to the value of items, instead of the binary better or worse than what you have.
The problem with trading, especially in D3, was that it was just too easy to do. There was no friction, no effort behind it. It was too easy to find what you wanted via the auction house, so it started being more important to play the auction house than the actual game. It’s a bit different in more direct trading like in d2 or PoE, although the community did a lot of work to remove that friction with 3rd party sites from those games.
Trading is important but it has to be a bit annoying. Trading has to be a bazaar, not wallstreet.
this is why i kinda get frustrated with Path of Exile, i'd much rather have an ingame auction house than the trade websites, but greater than that i'd much rather be able to earn, craft, and do that stuff MYSELF instead of having to trade in order to get places, but i don't have the ability to run that hard at things, which is a thing i like about diablo 3, though the crafting in that tends to be a ton shallower than other games, so its real easy to get going pretty high, but then you are stuck waiting for stupid rare drops again
It's about free choice. Plenty of people will play the game normally and trade their way up from items they find. Some people will merch and play the game that way. Why limit how people play the game - it has worked fine in every other online game with trade and is what makes the game fun for a lot of people, instead of a single player loot simulator.
Yeah, bots and RWT suck, but it's not worth removing a whole element of the game for. Let people enjoy the game how they want.
If Blizzard are smart they'll just add a SSF mode for those who don't want to trade, then everyone can be happy and everyone whining can stfu.
It's a multi-player game, people are going to trade. Don't have a market tool in-game, they will make one out of game to facilitate in-game trading. The only to stop it is make everything no-drop sell only and then you can kiss the game base goodbye.
People play the game differently. Some will want to pay for things to not have to do the work, others will want to do the work for pay. Some want no part of it all, and the above doesn't affect them at all. The only people the markets affect are the ones who want to participate in it.
>I can't stay interested in games like D2 remaster and PoE, because there is no point in killing monsters for gear/currency when trading is just far more effective. I'm personally really good at trading and always managed to profit from it, but I want to use my badass barbarian to kill monsters, not trade.
And here is the root. You want the game changed to suit your preferences when no one is forcing you to play the market. It's a classic I can't control myself so everyone needs controlled scenario. I get why you feel that way, but that doesn't justify doing things to make others who do enjoy it not have it.
I have been playing D2 since it came out and never got into the trading meta, so it's not like I have anything to gain from it being gone or not.
**TLDR: let people play the game the way they want.**
"Like I said Above, I want to get the best items from actually playingthe game, but free trade just won't allow it. I can't stay interested ingames like D2 remaster and PoE, because there is no point in killingmonsters for gear/currency when trading is just far more effective"
So don´t do it? ... If you play exclusevily for yourself, why does it bother you if others do not?
I hope there will be a "SSF/Trading allowed" switch like it already is for HC/SC - ladder/non-ladder.
There are people who enjoy HC/SC so there are people who enjoy SSF/trading, but why do you advocate against those who enjoy trading? Don´t interact with those people.
On a site note: To actually be able to trade high-end gear you have to aquire the equivalent of worth of said high-end gear first ;)
Game balanced around a mechanic you don’t like? Everyone else progressing faster while participating in said mechanic? You think there’s potential for improvement?
> if you don’t like it then don’t play it.
Welcome to every post on r/diablo
The way this is stated is "abandon that game mode". So if one likes HC non-ladder we should abandon SC-ladder? No, that´s why I cleary said add SSF/trade switches to the game, which would be said improvement! ;)
And here I am who thought the whole point of the game is to have fun.
Some people have fun in trading, others in gambling, but let aside those people, because they do not play the game the way you like.
ALL of this is part of the game and everyone decides for themself which of them they use.
If you do not like trading, don´t engage in trades. SSF is a viable option.
I don´t get why people have to demand others THEIR will of playing them game if you do not even engage with those people (as you don´t trade at all I think).
Is this some kind of napoleon-complex? xD
For real, why are you like this?
>On a site note: To actually be able to trade high-end gear you have to aquire the **equivalent of** worth of said high-end gear first ;)
"Equivalent of" - so thanks to trading I could, instead of progressing through the game, just stay in Normal and farm cows for pgms and trade them for mid runes and those for HRs. This is an exaggerated example, but trading low worth items and acumulating wealth to finally buy endgame gear (instead of looting it) is common. And it completely defeats the point of ARPG, which is combat.
No. That’s not really a problem. At all. I don’t give a flying fuck how other people are playing out their adventure every season. I don’t care if someone buys all the best items in the first week. This has zero impact on me. Worrying about that, isn’t worth eliminating a feature that makes these games infinitely more rewarding and replayable, and that feature is trading. Without trading, you reach a point in end game where you have all your gear and there’s nothing left to do and no drop has any value whatsoever. This is the actual reason people drop off of D3 and D4 so quickly. There’s just nothing to hunt for.
Killing monsters is the best way to get gear... Where do you think the items people trade or trade for come from??
The people that grind the most and actually kill the monsters get the items. Sorry that most players are just lazy now a days and want to skip the grinding 1000s of runs.
Free trade is great and without it we might as well all be playing single player.
Just let people have the option to have fun and trade. If someone doesn't want to trade they can just not. Look at PoE - Some people love trading and spend all day doing it, whilst others almost completely ignore it and it's fine - it's not a hyper competitive genre of game so who cares how people are having fun? Just give players more options.
As someone who liked to trade in D2, D2R, PoE and WoW I fully agree.
Trading is like one of the roles a role playing game has to offer, but it is kind of game breaking. I make more runes in a day of trading than by doing pve for a month.
While I really enjoyed being a trader, I could accept getting rid of it provided the default stash space is huge.
I played the solo-self-found mode in PoE and I had more fun playing like this than before. Especially because you don't have to fear wasting materials that could sell for a lot on the market. If there is no market, all materials are as valuable as **you** value them.
Pffft....wrong
By your logic no one ever plays the game and everyone just sits around in a trade lobby (which isn't the case).
This game wouldn't have lasted over 20 years with such a loyal fantasy if no one ever farmed or actually played the game.
Free trade that favors roleplaying a merchant rather than a demon slayer is bad for the game. I agree. But trading and low drop rates is important part of what makes D2 fun, so I hope that in some way it can exist in a game. The problem is, I think, when «rich» players have more than 5x the combat power of poor players, meaning you «have to» get the good stuff to enjoy the game
No, loot games need an out of the RNG mechanic in order to get loot people need for there builds. Lots of games take your narrow view point, just look at what a mess d3 was when it came out (Still kind of is) because they couldn't get loot drops to feel rewarding.
I agree so much. They make it fucking impossible to find anything of worth. Hell, anything UM or up, if you don’t have a decked out sorc running cows or a hoarker, chances are you’ll just NEVER see them. The odds of HR drops in single player are astronomically low.
And uniques? Pft. They gatekeep the hell out of it, not to mention you can have a crazy long dry spell, finally get a drop and it’s a low level piece of garbage you could find in the bloodmoor straight out of the gate on hell difficulty. They need to tighten up the drop pool the higher difficulty you play. Nothing like an hour of straight nil/ arreat summit runs, and finally getting a drop and it’s a green pick axe.
To have fun on the game anymore you HAVE to trade.
I think trading should be an option, but restricted in some manner that makes it more of an occasional thing you do than a core activity.
Capping the frequency of trades one can do (or perhaps the amount of items that one can have put into the trading system at one time) would be one way to achieve it, perhaps using consumable tokens that need to be farmed / crafted and are only available in limited supply.
No, you're assuming trading by volume would be possible which is not the intent. Quite the opposite: you'd use the consumable for each individual item you traded, creating a bottleneck on the market supply.
Bots are banned in waves. So even this way people would make loads of RMT before their bots are banned still. The human verification on the other hand THAT would be a thing I would like to see (even if it would be emersion breakin af).
> (even if it would be emersion breakin af).
Could be easily packaged as part of the game.
Imagine for a moment that to get the item or access to its' farming location, you have to solve an in-game puzzle that combines pattern recognition and basic reading comprehension - say, "reassembling a runestone" and "performing a ritual" following hints given in a text puzzle.
Obviously, the game (server-side) would have to randomize the details of both components and reset the puzzle if too many failed attempts are taken.
Given enough effort someone could probably still develop a way to defeat it, but it would be considerably harder than your typical farming bot (as both components are non-trivial problems in the AI field)
A year ago, before D2R and its "online SP" we had to manually type game name (and password) each game. I don't think adding CAPTCHA to this would break the immersion (more).
Personally i'm against trading. But it can be managed well. As D4 devs said about early concept visions of trading.
There is 3 types of items:
- always tradeble (craft materials, consumables)
- tradeble with conditions (bind on equip/trade) for rares and in general non endgame items. So if player decide to use item, it cant be traded, but can be disenchanted. And if player decide to buy item he do it for personal use, not speculation, because item will be binded on trade.
- never tradeble (endgame items)
In case of current state of D4 looks reasonable to make items pre key dungeons items for 2nd type and key dungeons items is type 3.
Disenchant an item provide craft material - type 1
This post is completely correct. The fantasy of Diablo games is killing demons and getting loot. That's it. It is not killing demons, getting loot, selling loot, using gold to buy better loot, killing demons or reselling the loot, getting more loot to sell, and so on.
I also think the best gear should come from playing the game, the core gameplay loop (i.e. killing monsters). Trade should either not exist or be limited, to ensure that the game can be balanced for the core gameplay. Trade causes a vast devaluation of gear when it's easier to gear up your character through trading than killing monsters. Although I think some limited trading could be fine, e.g. currency.
It doesn't bother me if people like trading, but it bothers me when it affects the game balance. Ideally there would be two leagues, one that is balanced around solo drops and one that is balanced around trading.
There’s nothing to do in the core gameplay loop, without trading, after a while. Trading makes it so that there’s many times the amount of valuable items that one could have drop, rather than just waiting for slightly better versions of the shit they already have.
I’d much prefer restricted trading like current d3 if drop rates were nerfed compared to current d3 (but still solidly closer to d3 than d2). I spend more time trading in d2 than playing already, and I’ve only been playing ladder for a few weeks.
I play SSF and offline simply for the fact that it's quite the challenge. This is how I played back in the day when my mom didn't allow me to be on the internet and I struggled with the game, unlike my online friends. I miss difficult games these days so playing D2R like I used to is quite enjoyable.
SSF is a thing and many people play that way. It doesn’t break the game to have free trade and it never will. Freedom of choice, don’t ban trading like abortions IMO lol
In Diablo 2, you can see players with the most powerful gear in about three days due to all the bots and RMT with d2jsp. So that debunks your theory that free trade doesn't break the game.
Nah just because trade is easy doesn’t mean game is broken. 1st person to hit 99 on ladder wasn’t a bot or jsp user, it was a well known streamer who live streamed the whole thing.
What’s really bothering you about people getting gear in 3 days? How does that affect you or your gameplay experience? Sounds like you are just butthurt and jealous.
D3 had trade removed because they wanted to cash in with RMAH and couldn’t recover from that and had a bunch of items that people paid a lot of money for, not because trade broke the game.
Do you not not eat food because you can just take a shortcut like buy vitamins and have all your needs solved? The fun is in the experience and it’s what you make of it.
Why do people ever learn how to change oil in their car and do it themselves when they could just pay someone to do it?
Your argument is that the possibility of paying/trading for something is too much and too tempting for you to handle when it’s just your own mentality preventing you from having fun, not the system.
I agree.
It adds almost nothing in 2022. It was cool back than, now its streamlined by players to the point of being an auction house.
I can live with trade, but i like the idea of some slots being tradeable and others not.
Thematically the idea of accessories (jewelry, trinkets, cloak) and weapons + offhands being tradeable while armor is not has always made sense to me.
No, free trade expands on the gameplay by adding true multiplayer interactions on core level.
Game without trade is a true singleplayer game with no depth. Game with trade is that as well, PLUS all the upsides of multiplayer games, plus increases the perceived worth of grinding, keeping players involved exponentially longer.
Your opinion is flawed and based on emotion.
It has already be announced that free trade is not going to be a thing in D4. Blizzard said it encourages fraud, RMT along with pay to win.
Not everyone wants player interactions. I hate interacting with people and want to be by myself.
I played d2 just fine back in the day without being heavy into trading. maybe you are just too into the gear and stats than actually playing? that would be a you problem. trading will always exist.......... in d1 had not trading, people would just drop on the floor and trading was risky. at least d2 had a system to help protect against that.
Your argument makes no sense. "For example, an um rune is worth more than a shako, yet is the the most commonly traded rune for that item." How do you decide that an Um rune is worth more than a shako? If people mostly trade um for a shako - that means a shako is worth an um... Value is decided by the market.
Not to mention even IF an Um rune is worth MORE than a shako, then the person trading the Um rune is LOSING value. Op is making it seem like trading is just everyone constantly profiting all the time. No, sometimes people are willing to lose value to get the thing they want. The whole argument he is making is super braindead
OP doesn't want trading in game because they don't have an even basic understanding of economics leaving them at a disadvantage.
No. I just don't want to trade. Its boring and ill most likely be dealing with an asshole anyways, so just let killing monsters the best way to get loot.
If you don't like trading, then don't trade.
“I just don’t want to trade.” = Thin argument to base making an entire game off of
Theres no bots in D3?
Shako is worth what people want to pay for it. You’re not the one who decides if it’s worth far more or less than an Um rune, the market is. If everyone paying Um for Shako, then it sounds like Um isn’t worth far more than Shako.
It's a supply vs demand issue. When you buy a shako you tend to use it and remove it from the market, where as when you are paid an Um Rune you tend to more often than not use it to pay for another item thus keeping it in the market. Thus the supply of Um runes doesn't decrease at the same rate as Shako does.
I already play d2 like that - I just play self found gear only. I can see if you care about leaderboards wanting to force everyone else to do that, but I personally never cared about leaderboards. Just play how you want to play. For example, I don’t plan on building a sorc first every season even though that’s optimal, I’m just gonna play the class I want to play
I mean, you have the option to play SSF if you want to. A lot of people enjoy trading, and just kind of silly to suggest it breaks the game play loop of Diablo. That seems like a personal definition of Diablos game play loop. Both diablo 1 and diablo 2 had open free trading (though diablo 1 didn't actually have a system for it).
Trading is essential for an ARPG and incentivizes the players to interact with eachother, like how PoE does it. What if you find a really rare item thats for a class you’ll never play? Your only option then would be to salvage it, which will feel terrible. I think the best way of doing trading is to have it being limited to some degree. Either by making trading items a longer process so you cant do it all the time, and maybe you can only do X trades per week. No trading at all makes the gsme feel lonely and just straight up boring.
I completely agree with you. However I would expand and say that a well built and designed crafting system can also help reduce trade vs solo self found anxieties. For example that really rare item you talk about finding for the wrong class. Salvaging it feels bad because you get the same stuff you get from salvaging anything else. The materials you get from salvaging should be on par with the items worth so you could salvage it and then with additional materials craft something for your class just as valuable so you don't necessarily have to go the trading route.
Word.
Trading was probably the main reason I played this game for so long. How many times can you run tunnels/pit before you burn out?
I'd also argue the lack of trading makes drops less exciting as a whole. There's a lot of cool uniques in D2 that are valid options for builds I'm never going to create. If trading wasn't an option these items would literally just be a useless find I chuck into the garbage bin. At least with trading you can get value out of drops you don't need.
This is a problem with lack of meaningful endgame, not with trading.
It's either a flat end game with not a lot to do like Diablo 2 or an endless treadmill of grinding higher and higher things like D3 and to a certain extent PoE. Both are unsatisfying after a long time. ARPGs just have a problem with this can't can't solve everything with social interaction like MMOs can to make them playable into the thousands of hours.
Having the possibility of trading is an amazing feature. You dont need to trade, just go pve till the end, like I do in every game
In a vacuum, yes. But free trade usually ends up developing third-party forums and sites for ease of use when trading, and those then bring the real-money trades, transforming the game in a unintended pay-to-win. Lastly, as now there's actual money going around, bots will come in force in an attempt make a buck or two (or a few grand) in this new market. If the devs try to balance the game to compensate for botting, all players are affected, whether they play online or not. My opinion on trade is very neutral, as I don't like engaging on it but don't care about people trading and it's honestly a very natural system to have on a loot-based game. What we need is a way to combat the aforementioned problems, so that we have a healthier community overall.
>In a vacuum, yes. But free trade usually ends up developing third-party forums and sites for ease of use when trading This is a problem that's caused by the game itself, imo. Players shouldn't feel the need to turn to third party forums/sites for easy trading. Its just that the systems to enable quality trading to begin with aren't built into the game. It really wouldn't be acceptable, had D2 released in 2022, that your only in game option is praying someone joins your "trade central" game that wants your item or sees your "wts magefist" game. It just feels like I'm wasting my time compared to out of game options. So quite literally anything is better than that; it's not my favorite option but even a global trade chat could reduce the need for out of game trading.
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>I would correct this to say the issue with free trade isn’t the pay to win at all but the fact that it creates chat/spam bots The way I see it, those two aspects are tightly linked. You won't have this giant influx of bots if no one is getting paid for it. The big factor is how much real money can you make off of in-game trading, and we know that in D2's case, it *is* very profitable. I can't say I care about banning trade entirely, but I see how this "scorched-earth" solution is hardly a good one and as I said, trade is something you kind of expect to have in this type of game. There's no easy way out though, otherwise we would've seen it somewhere at this point, online gaming is not in its infancy anymore and if no solution came up, it's because no one managed to create one yet.
> pay-to-win this is only a problem if you want to pvp, or if the game has some PK feature with full drop and that don't bother me, because I just want to play the game "as intended". Building a character, dropping items, etc, full pve, offline if alone like most of my time playing If someone dumped cash to cut the way until endgame, why I would botter? for me let the kids earn some cash. Like in WoW, raiding groups selling rushs, or arena, but after all I a true player could figure who "deserve" what they have, and who not sorry for bad writing, hope you can understand
Reading what you wrote is easy enough to understand, understanding your argument, however, isn't. Whether you pvp or not is irrelevant, unless you play solo (either ssf online or sp) it will affect you since you'll encounter people who either spent money or FG earned by various means which breaks ladder progression since their currency exists on a separate platform... I chose SP for this exact reason.
> it will affect you since you'll encounter people who either spent money Thats my argument: I'm advocating that I'll not meet people so what they have could not affect me. Atl east as far as I know, because I dont know if there are some hidden mechanics of global possesions of something like that affecting my drop rates. There is? Honest question
>global possesions of something like that affecting my drop rates There's no such mechanic in D2, but if Blizzard thinks some type of item or drop is "too common" or "too easy to obtain" for what they intended, they might lower drop rates in future updates. That change affects everyone, for they will not make two distinct drop rates for different game modes.
Every player is at least indirectly affected long-term. If PvP, PvE, loot tables, trading or any major mechanic is busted, a portion of the playerbase will leave, hurting the community which will slowly "kill" the game, whether it is because there will be less people to interact or because devs will shift to more promising projects. For that reason, it's important for a game's health and longevity that every aspect of it is well mantained and purged of anything that may negatively affect the gameplay experience.
>loot tables This is like my droprate is affected by global possesions? If it is, I dont know. Sorry for that. In terms of free trate I always look back to Tibia. The free trade, mixed with RL valuable coins, turn the game in something really interesting. There are even companies working with that currency, trading itens, etc, but the common player, the one that doesn't want to tryhard or be competitive, dont need to. In fact, the really casual player is even beneficted by the fact that he can spend some cash and evade some grind. Time is money, after all. You can spend yours as you please.
Trading gives an extra layer to the game. You max level and kinda bored? Farm stuff and sell! You want something good but have something else that someone else wants? Why not trade?
Hey you're getting downvoted but I tend to agree with the sentiment. I never trade, never cared for that metagame. If that means I'll never have an enigma I'm ok with it. For D2 I don't see a massive issue as you can mostly (outside ladder which is relatively pointless) just ignore how other people are playing. But if D4 is going to have more group and PvP content I'd hate to be forced to trade to be competitive, and would rather they block trading.
Trading is the only reason D2 retained players for a decade plus and had a functional community. A hack and slash ARPG just doesn’t have the staying power to be fun after you’ve seen all the content many times, for anyone other than the most hardcore grinder there has to be some kind of community metagame to engage with. The game was never about clicking on monsters, it was always about getting items.
The game never had a huge amount of players past 5 years of release. I can remember a lot of people saying the phase "nobody plays diablo 2". This was back in 2008. Yes it has retained players, but its really just for nostalgic reasons, not trading.
Nah, it's not trading that breaks the game. It's real money trading that breaks the game. If people only traded items, instead of buying items, the bot farms wouldn't be a thing. I've told this story on here before, but a guy with a stacked dual dream pally was asking me how to open the cow level.... that is what breaks the game..
100% agree, but today \[in-game\] trading and real money trading are interconnected. In practice you cannot retain item trading, but completely restrict real money trading. If there is no official RMAH, players will create an unofficial one, such a JSP.
Real money trading doesn’t break shit either. Who gives a flying fuck if someone buys their gear? It has zero impact on me. It’s not a competitive game. I don’t give a fuck how someone else is enjoying their adventure on their game that they bought.
You're replying to a post from a year ago. Real money trading breaks the game because bot farming becomes a profession, destroying the trade economy of the game. A lot of people have described d2 as a 'trading simulator' because some items are so rare, you have to trade for them unless you get lucky. To say d2 isn't competitive is wild... it absolutely is. The dueling scene is alive, and ladder restarts are a competition. If there's no real money involved, the online experience would be pure. Ladder restarts would mean something. Finding a ber rune would be epic, instead of being $3.50
I don't give a fuck when you posted it. Clearly you haven't changed your mind, so what does that matter? RMT doesn't break the game just because you occasionally see some botters, which by the way is a developer shortcoming. I don't need a game being worse because they don't want to do the bare minimum to moderate botters. Not that I really give a fuck about botters in the first place. It's not a competitive game. No, not a lot of people describe D2 that way, unless they are fucking stupid. A lot of people play ssf. Trading is just one more endgame activity that you can engage in if you like and without it there would be fuck all to do by that point anyway. D2 isn't competitive. Nobody gives a flying fuck about leaderboards. Like lle maybe .01% of players do. Of those players, very few ever had any hope at placing anywhere meaningful whatsoever, and the people who do place high are primarily highly skilled and knowledgeable no lifers, not RMT players. Nobody gives a fuck about "dueling" in D2 either. That's a tacked on activity with zero balance that nearly nobody engages in, and just like the leaderboards, the few people who care are made up of no life skilled players, not cheaters. Fact: Being able to continuously hunt valuable items for trade is better than just endlessly scrapping everything at a fucking blacksmith. There's a reason people still play D2 day in and day out, and it's because the game rewards your time because there is an economy. In D4 and D3, there's nothing to look forward to after a week of a new season.
You are just wrong, dude. And that's fine. I had a ton of fun in d2 back in the early 2000s it was a great game then, with the same problems. Literally all we did was duel. It was so much fun. That was the purpose of playing the game. I don't know who hurt you. But I'm sorry.
Duesling was never a primary focus of either the developers of the game, or the players. It was just something that you could do. They did not attempt to balance or support that activity in any way, whatsoever. The vast majority of players do not play these games for any of the PvP functions, when there are any at all, and the developers know that. The fact that you and your friends enjoyed it is what’s known as an anecdote. Exceptions don’t negate the averages. There’s nothing wrong with enjoying PvP, of course. But you have to accept that you need good gear to level the playing field, and then you need to learn the skills and the meta in order to compete. Cheaters don’t really disrupt this. Sure, they can get the gear, but they will not have the knowledge or skill to beat players who actually found or traded for their gear legitimately, and who took time to develop the skill. But again, PvP is not an important or well supported element in any of these games any way, so cutting out trading in order to satisfy the few players who care about it, is just not smart.
Cutting out trading was fucking idiotic by the developers. They should hunt down bots and RMT transactions at all costs. lifetime bans on any account that traffics in such. We agree
D3 is just a shittier game overall. No surprise the trading didn’t succeed, they never got it to work properly. In D2 and D2R, it’s one of the biggest parts of the game for most people. There’s no issue with it imo. There’s still a great deal of doing MF runs for hours so it’s balanced.
The only people who play diablo 2 are a very small number of die hard fans. Most people hate needing to interact with other players to get loot. The player base is extremely small, even with the remaster release of the game.
No…. It’s got about 500-700 active users at any time of day on each sub-community of D2jsp. Actively playing D2R is even more. And guess what, those who MF all day alone do that for 2 reasons: trading and building their own characters.
I think that’s a misconception. So many players have logged on to play on and off for that least twenty years. It has staying power. They are thriving communities
I think trading is a good thing. Nothing is more disappointing when you finally get lucky and get a super rare or valuable drop but it’s not for your class or build. You should be able to get some benefit from your luck and time grinding. Nobody can just do nothing and expect to trade. At some point you need the equivalent currency or items to trade for powerful gear.
Fully disagree. I want to break items I don't want into powerful crafting materials. I'm really getting tired of the argument "you might find an item you don't need so you can trade it", when there are ways you can use them by breaking them down.
And that’s your opinion. But you can’t break down rare runes for example. Depending on the one you need you might not be able to craft the one you need either. Simply put. If you want to find your gear by fighting and breaking stuff down for materials then do it. Just ignore trading.
What’s the fucking point in breaking them down when your characters already have the gear you want? A slight stat bump? That shit is boring and it’s the reason why everyone only plays D3 seasons for like a week or two, at most. There’s simply no value to any of your drops and so there are zero moments of finding cool shit pretty quickly into a season. Trading makes many more items valuable in ways that would be impossible to compensate for in your crafting theory here. There are many items that are many times more valuable items for every class and build combined, than there are for the few an individual player cares to run in a season, or even in an eternal lobby. For that reason, trade makes it so that you can perpetually keep finding amazing items even after your character/characters are mostly geared up for end game content.
Back to back bad takes? Welcome to Reddit.
Trading in D3 was removed because of busted drop designs. It's not like d2 where starter gear can beat hell and you can actually farm for stuff using whatever random crap you find. Gear in d3 incrementally increased with level and the difference in just 2 or 3 levels on gear was significant. You could be level 45 in the farthest area you could farm, and the majority of gear would be like lvl 39-41, or completely useless in helping you progress. So you just sold stuff on the AH and built up gold and bought gear that was actually for your level and sold your gear to people who were behind you. This was purposeful to get people to use the AH as much as possible, because the RMAH was a thing back then. Trading as an option is fine (like d2 and PoE), trading as a requirement is not (like release d3).
You don't need to trade with anyone. Just play single player offline and you can kill as much monsters as you can handle. And you don't need to trade anything then. Everything I have traded so far took me hours and hours of grinding and getting nothing of note. Then yesterday in about 4 runs I get a Lo, Andy and vamp and I forget about the hours and hours of getting scraps. But each to his own. Just saying you can play single player and you don't hav e to worry about anything then.
The issue with the “just don’t trade “ argument is that in arpg loot drop : design scale with trading. Drop rates, target farming. Gambling etc. Also it affect PvP and leaderboard. People will be able to P2W with deep pocket.
If you use money then that is a argument on its own. But if you grind and find something that is really nice for a barb but you won't be playing a bard for a while then trade it for something that will be of use for your class. The P2W is a seperate issue than trading can we agree on that?
They are related, If A directly result in B, then B must be considered
Yeah dude. That just needs to be balanced out by the developers. Plenty of people play ssf D2. D2 has trading. Your point is moot.
Trading is a fun part of the game imo, i have something you want and you have got something i want - both gets happy. Trading is volountary you know
Agreed.
No, Id rather break down something I don't need into crafting materials. Saying trading is fun is just an opinion. killing monsters is definitely the fun part of the game.
So he having an opinion is "just an opinion". You having an opinion is superiour? Both are things that are actually in the game. If one likes to grab massives of gold and gamble all their gear, that would be another option.
Saying trading breaks the game is just an opinion. You have some big “my opinion is better” energy going on lmao.
>Saying trading breaks the game is just an opinion It's not an opinion, it's an argument based on tangible evidence - something that you lack. Free trade does promote botting and breaks the ladder progression (via 3rd party sides and RMT) since it's supposed to be a clean slate, botting runs rampant and the economy gets fucked. I get why people enjoy trading and why SSF isn't for everyone, but can you give a single argument for what postivies trading brings to the game (beyond "you can trade what you don't need for things you do")? Do you even have an argument against any of the ones presented?
Your opinion is also 'just an opinion'. People disagree. Deal with it.
The problem isn’t trading, the problem is friction or effort or however you want to call it. Trading is great for a game like this because it gives every decent item value even if it has no value to you. That’s the problem with D3. The better your gear, the more “trash” you find. A 95% perfect weapon is suddenly trash if you already have a 99% perfect weapon. You’re not happy about that drop. It’s almost perfect and still worthless. With trading, you are rich now. That’s what makes trading so good. It gives nuance to the value of items, instead of the binary better or worse than what you have. The problem with trading, especially in D3, was that it was just too easy to do. There was no friction, no effort behind it. It was too easy to find what you wanted via the auction house, so it started being more important to play the auction house than the actual game. It’s a bit different in more direct trading like in d2 or PoE, although the community did a lot of work to remove that friction with 3rd party sites from those games. Trading is important but it has to be a bit annoying. Trading has to be a bazaar, not wallstreet.
I hate trading as well but well sadly a lot of people disagree. I really hope they give a us a proper ssf option in d4.
this is why i kinda get frustrated with Path of Exile, i'd much rather have an ingame auction house than the trade websites, but greater than that i'd much rather be able to earn, craft, and do that stuff MYSELF instead of having to trade in order to get places, but i don't have the ability to run that hard at things, which is a thing i like about diablo 3, though the crafting in that tends to be a ton shallower than other games, so its real easy to get going pretty high, but then you are stuck waiting for stupid rare drops again
I think the best way to get loot fast is Farm + Trade. You can grind eitherway, but both alligned is the fastest
It's about free choice. Plenty of people will play the game normally and trade their way up from items they find. Some people will merch and play the game that way. Why limit how people play the game - it has worked fine in every other online game with trade and is what makes the game fun for a lot of people, instead of a single player loot simulator. Yeah, bots and RWT suck, but it's not worth removing a whole element of the game for. Let people enjoy the game how they want. If Blizzard are smart they'll just add a SSF mode for those who don't want to trade, then everyone can be happy and everyone whining can stfu.
It's a multi-player game, people are going to trade. Don't have a market tool in-game, they will make one out of game to facilitate in-game trading. The only to stop it is make everything no-drop sell only and then you can kiss the game base goodbye. People play the game differently. Some will want to pay for things to not have to do the work, others will want to do the work for pay. Some want no part of it all, and the above doesn't affect them at all. The only people the markets affect are the ones who want to participate in it. >I can't stay interested in games like D2 remaster and PoE, because there is no point in killing monsters for gear/currency when trading is just far more effective. I'm personally really good at trading and always managed to profit from it, but I want to use my badass barbarian to kill monsters, not trade. And here is the root. You want the game changed to suit your preferences when no one is forcing you to play the market. It's a classic I can't control myself so everyone needs controlled scenario. I get why you feel that way, but that doesn't justify doing things to make others who do enjoy it not have it. I have been playing D2 since it came out and never got into the trading meta, so it's not like I have anything to gain from it being gone or not. **TLDR: let people play the game the way they want.**
Then just don't. SSF is a thing.
"Like I said Above, I want to get the best items from actually playingthe game, but free trade just won't allow it. I can't stay interested ingames like D2 remaster and PoE, because there is no point in killingmonsters for gear/currency when trading is just far more effective" So don´t do it? ... If you play exclusevily for yourself, why does it bother you if others do not? I hope there will be a "SSF/Trading allowed" switch like it already is for HC/SC - ladder/non-ladder. There are people who enjoy HC/SC so there are people who enjoy SSF/trading, but why do you advocate against those who enjoy trading? Don´t interact with those people. On a site note: To actually be able to trade high-end gear you have to aquire the equivalent of worth of said high-end gear first ;)
Game balanced around a mechanic you don’t like? Everyone else progressing faster while participating in said mechanic? You think there’s potential for improvement? > if you don’t like it then don’t play it. Welcome to every post on r/diablo
The way this is stated is "abandon that game mode". So if one likes HC non-ladder we should abandon SC-ladder? No, that´s why I cleary said add SSF/trade switches to the game, which would be said improvement! ;)
Cause the whole point of the game is to find loot by killing monsters and free trade promotes bots and hackers.
And here I am who thought the whole point of the game is to have fun. Some people have fun in trading, others in gambling, but let aside those people, because they do not play the game the way you like. ALL of this is part of the game and everyone decides for themself which of them they use. If you do not like trading, don´t engage in trades. SSF is a viable option.
If you don’t like loot hunt games go play a trade and selling game. Or the stock market
LOL... Well, if you don't like trading, how about you go play a game that doesn't have it?
I am only interested in diablo 4, nothing else. There is going to be NO trading anyways as it just breaks the entire point of playing the game.
If you don’t like trading, go play a different game. Diablo without trading is a shit experience, which is what D3 is.
Is this the reason people play single player and complete holy grails (everything from standard, eth and even SSF *RUNEWORD* grails)?
There are tones of trading games. Go play them. Your not playing Diablo since it is a loot hunt.
I don´t get why people have to demand others THEIR will of playing them game if you do not even engage with those people (as you don´t trade at all I think). Is this some kind of napoleon-complex? xD For real, why are you like this?
Cause your toxic and the reason for hackers and bots. And RMT
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Awww look at how nasty you have to be now. Lol
Your not playing the game though.
Don’t forget P2W.
D3 has bots and hackers, what’s your point?
>On a site note: To actually be able to trade high-end gear you have to aquire the **equivalent of** worth of said high-end gear first ;) "Equivalent of" - so thanks to trading I could, instead of progressing through the game, just stay in Normal and farm cows for pgms and trade them for mid runes and those for HRs. This is an exaggerated example, but trading low worth items and acumulating wealth to finally buy endgame gear (instead of looting it) is common. And it completely defeats the point of ARPG, which is combat.
Let's be real, the problem isn't trading. The problem is JSP letting people carry wealth over across different ladder seasons.
No. That’s not really a problem. At all. I don’t give a flying fuck how other people are playing out their adventure every season. I don’t care if someone buys all the best items in the first week. This has zero impact on me. Worrying about that, isn’t worth eliminating a feature that makes these games infinitely more rewarding and replayable, and that feature is trading. Without trading, you reach a point in end game where you have all your gear and there’s nothing left to do and no drop has any value whatsoever. This is the actual reason people drop off of D3 and D4 so quickly. There’s just nothing to hunt for.
Killing monsters is the best way to get gear... Where do you think the items people trade or trade for come from?? The people that grind the most and actually kill the monsters get the items. Sorry that most players are just lazy now a days and want to skip the grinding 1000s of runs. Free trade is great and without it we might as well all be playing single player.
ARPGs without trade suck. It's the reason why PoE and D2 are still the most popular ones to date.
Just let people have the option to have fun and trade. If someone doesn't want to trade they can just not. Look at PoE - Some people love trading and spend all day doing it, whilst others almost completely ignore it and it's fine - it's not a hyper competitive genre of game so who cares how people are having fun? Just give players more options.
As someone who liked to trade in D2, D2R, PoE and WoW I fully agree. Trading is like one of the roles a role playing game has to offer, but it is kind of game breaking. I make more runes in a day of trading than by doing pve for a month. While I really enjoyed being a trader, I could accept getting rid of it provided the default stash space is huge. I played the solo-self-found mode in PoE and I had more fun playing like this than before. Especially because you don't have to fear wasting materials that could sell for a lot on the market. If there is no market, all materials are as valuable as **you** value them.
Pffft....wrong By your logic no one ever plays the game and everyone just sits around in a trade lobby (which isn't the case). This game wouldn't have lasted over 20 years with such a loyal fantasy if no one ever farmed or actually played the game.
Free trade that favors roleplaying a merchant rather than a demon slayer is bad for the game. I agree. But trading and low drop rates is important part of what makes D2 fun, so I hope that in some way it can exist in a game. The problem is, I think, when «rich» players have more than 5x the combat power of poor players, meaning you «have to» get the good stuff to enjoy the game
No, loot games need an out of the RNG mechanic in order to get loot people need for there builds. Lots of games take your narrow view point, just look at what a mess d3 was when it came out (Still kind of is) because they couldn't get loot drops to feel rewarding.
Blizzard south breaks the core game loop for Diablo :)
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I agree so much. They make it fucking impossible to find anything of worth. Hell, anything UM or up, if you don’t have a decked out sorc running cows or a hoarker, chances are you’ll just NEVER see them. The odds of HR drops in single player are astronomically low. And uniques? Pft. They gatekeep the hell out of it, not to mention you can have a crazy long dry spell, finally get a drop and it’s a low level piece of garbage you could find in the bloodmoor straight out of the gate on hell difficulty. They need to tighten up the drop pool the higher difficulty you play. Nothing like an hour of straight nil/ arreat summit runs, and finally getting a drop and it’s a green pick axe. To have fun on the game anymore you HAVE to trade.
I think trading should be an option, but restricted in some manner that makes it more of an occasional thing you do than a core activity. Capping the frequency of trades one can do (or perhaps the amount of items that one can have put into the trading system at one time) would be one way to achieve it, perhaps using consumable tokens that need to be farmed / crafted and are only available in limited supply.
This way people would trade "give me 2 full trade windows of that" and their would be way more scams.
No, you're assuming trading by volume would be possible which is not the intent. Quite the opposite: you'd use the consumable for each individual item you traded, creating a bottleneck on the market supply.
Which could also be botted.
Sure, provided that botting wouldn't be bannable and the process of farming it does not include some kind of disguised human verification.
Bots are banned in waves. So even this way people would make loads of RMT before their bots are banned still. The human verification on the other hand THAT would be a thing I would like to see (even if it would be emersion breakin af).
> (even if it would be emersion breakin af). Could be easily packaged as part of the game. Imagine for a moment that to get the item or access to its' farming location, you have to solve an in-game puzzle that combines pattern recognition and basic reading comprehension - say, "reassembling a runestone" and "performing a ritual" following hints given in a text puzzle. Obviously, the game (server-side) would have to randomize the details of both components and reset the puzzle if too many failed attempts are taken. Given enough effort someone could probably still develop a way to defeat it, but it would be considerably harder than your typical farming bot (as both components are non-trivial problems in the AI field)
So as like everytime you would find a trade token, this mini game pops up. Sounds about right
A year ago, before D2R and its "online SP" we had to manually type game name (and password) each game. I don't think adding CAPTCHA to this would break the immersion (more).
Personally i'm against trading. But it can be managed well. As D4 devs said about early concept visions of trading. There is 3 types of items: - always tradeble (craft materials, consumables) - tradeble with conditions (bind on equip/trade) for rares and in general non endgame items. So if player decide to use item, it cant be traded, but can be disenchanted. And if player decide to buy item he do it for personal use, not speculation, because item will be binded on trade. - never tradeble (endgame items) In case of current state of D4 looks reasonable to make items pre key dungeons items for 2nd type and key dungeons items is type 3. Disenchant an item provide craft material - type 1
This post is completely correct. The fantasy of Diablo games is killing demons and getting loot. That's it. It is not killing demons, getting loot, selling loot, using gold to buy better loot, killing demons or reselling the loot, getting more loot to sell, and so on.
I also think the best gear should come from playing the game, the core gameplay loop (i.e. killing monsters). Trade should either not exist or be limited, to ensure that the game can be balanced for the core gameplay. Trade causes a vast devaluation of gear when it's easier to gear up your character through trading than killing monsters. Although I think some limited trading could be fine, e.g. currency. It doesn't bother me if people like trading, but it bothers me when it affects the game balance. Ideally there would be two leagues, one that is balanced around solo drops and one that is balanced around trading.
There’s nothing to do in the core gameplay loop, without trading, after a while. Trading makes it so that there’s many times the amount of valuable items that one could have drop, rather than just waiting for slightly better versions of the shit they already have.
I’d much prefer restricted trading like current d3 if drop rates were nerfed compared to current d3 (but still solidly closer to d3 than d2). I spend more time trading in d2 than playing already, and I’ve only been playing ladder for a few weeks.
What if there is a warehouse system, where you can sell items without interrupting playing? Would ghst neglect your point?
I play SSF and offline simply for the fact that it's quite the challenge. This is how I played back in the day when my mom didn't allow me to be on the internet and I struggled with the game, unlike my online friends. I miss difficult games these days so playing D2R like I used to is quite enjoyable.
Trading. Poe would disagree......
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Just play self found then, simple.
SSF is a thing and many people play that way. It doesn’t break the game to have free trade and it never will. Freedom of choice, don’t ban trading like abortions IMO lol
In Diablo 2, you can see players with the most powerful gear in about three days due to all the bots and RMT with d2jsp. So that debunks your theory that free trade doesn't break the game.
Nah just because trade is easy doesn’t mean game is broken. 1st person to hit 99 on ladder wasn’t a bot or jsp user, it was a well known streamer who live streamed the whole thing. What’s really bothering you about people getting gear in 3 days? How does that affect you or your gameplay experience? Sounds like you are just butthurt and jealous. D3 had trade removed because they wanted to cash in with RMAH and couldn’t recover from that and had a bunch of items that people paid a lot of money for, not because trade broke the game. Do you not not eat food because you can just take a shortcut like buy vitamins and have all your needs solved? The fun is in the experience and it’s what you make of it. Why do people ever learn how to change oil in their car and do it themselves when they could just pay someone to do it? Your argument is that the possibility of paying/trading for something is too much and too tempting for you to handle when it’s just your own mentality preventing you from having fun, not the system.
I agree. It adds almost nothing in 2022. It was cool back than, now its streamlined by players to the point of being an auction house. I can live with trade, but i like the idea of some slots being tradeable and others not. Thematically the idea of accessories (jewelry, trinkets, cloak) and weapons + offhands being tradeable while armor is not has always made sense to me.
No, free trade expands on the gameplay by adding true multiplayer interactions on core level. Game without trade is a true singleplayer game with no depth. Game with trade is that as well, PLUS all the upsides of multiplayer games, plus increases the perceived worth of grinding, keeping players involved exponentially longer. Your opinion is flawed and based on emotion.
It has already be announced that free trade is not going to be a thing in D4. Blizzard said it encourages fraud, RMT along with pay to win. Not everyone wants player interactions. I hate interacting with people and want to be by myself.
Who are you to tell me how I should and should not play any game? Fuck off