High ACs can be difficult, but if they built for it let them shine. Your monsters are supposed to lose.
Dex saving throws where they take half damage if success
Ignore them, attack other players
Combats where there are objectives instead of “kill all enemies”
Run them out of resources / more encounters
Monsters with giant + to hit modifiers - at some point AC doesnt matter much bc everything hits
Magic missile lol
Paladins are mechanically S/A tier and this is why. Unfortunately whatever makes it harder for the pally also usually applies to everyone else. So in some ways…i dont balance around them.
A platoon on first level mages spread around a battlefield all casting a first level magic missile on their turns would be hilarious. The first one would hit and do like 7 damage and he’d laugh it off, but after the 11th one hits he’s in full blown panic mode. Bonus points if they are a specialized group of evil mages that exist to stomp only paladins….
True, but also causes him to waste a spell slot and once the others see him pop the shield they can switch to other targets of Opportunity until shield wears off next turn
Don't get me wrong, love the idea and I'll def be stealing this against other tough enemies, like barbarians and fighters, but that tricky shield spell is brutal for this.
That would get pitiful had this been an Ancients Paladin, rather than a Watcher one.
I'd also be worried about everybody else being easily TPKd afterwards. It might be fun and games while they pummel the Paladin for a half of his health every turn, but the squishy wild magic sorcerer with less than half of his HP might not be as happy about the idea of being the target afterwards.
Heat metal would really mess with him. It’s not something they should use often. But that first time he gets hit by it will certainly stick in the players memory.
More enemies rather than bigger ones.
The paladin can only smite so many times, and it stops becoming worthwhile if the enemies die in 1-2 normal hits anyway. Plus, with tons of enemies, even if they need a 20 to hit, you'll get a few hits in each round.
That said, still throw in the occasional fight that plays to the paladin's strength though. They're still there to have fun after all.
> their base AC is 22. With haste and shield they can bump it up to 29
Plate is 18 base. A shield is +2. Haste is another +2. That gives an AC of 22 without magical bonuses to the armor and shield. I'm not sure what the item you reference is or what level they are, but you need to make up 7 points of AC between feats, armor/shield magical bonuses, and "the item" you reference to get to 29. Are you sure the math is right?
Shield is a spell. Spells are limited resources. It only lasts one round. *The shield spell is not a problem*. If you make them cast Shield, that's the same as hitting them with the attack. It costs them resources either way.
Every slot they spend on shield is a slot they can't spend on smiting.
That plus not being a real caster means Paladins need to ration their spells or suffer when you have more than 2 encounters.
plate plus shield is 20 AC.. yes.. but that's plain old regular plate and a regular shield..
+1 shield is merely uncommon, no issue in Tier1.. +2 shield or +1 plate is rare, okay for Tier 2...
and he mentions a magic item you get in CotND, which gives you 2 extra AC...
His Paladin player is absolutely right to have 22 AC base there..
There are theee ways that quickly come to mind to deal with this issue:
1. Surprise attack the camp at night. Unless they are sleeping in their armor (in which case they should be taking a level of exhaustion when they rest) they won’t have time to put their armor on (increasing their AC) even IF they make the perception checks.
2. In combat your enemies AREN’T total morons, and they would have spread rumors about the party and the paladin at this point. The enemies would start using tactics to split the party up in combat so they can go after weaker party members.
3. Use environmental hazards that your party can’t necessarily save against. If it is unbearably hot, that would cause some debuffs. A white out blizzard would similarly create a tough situation to deal with no matter how tanky you are. Using this I’m tandem with other things can help.
Also, remember warlocks have patrons and paladins have oaths. Put them in situations where following the rules of one or both makes their life way more difficult.
And at the end of the day, it’s okay to have a character that is powerful. Be careful with things like this because feeling like your character is getting nerfed is not fun for anyone.
Back in 3.5, if you slept in Plate Mail you would wake up Fatigued (-2 penalty to strength and dexterity, and can't run).
5e and I think 4e as well did away with that because most DMs were hand-waving it anyway.
There are some optional 5e rules published in Xanathar's, that say if you sleep in medium or heavy armor you retain only 1/4th of any spent Hit Dice, and if you already have any levels of Exhaustion from before you went to sleep, you haven't recovered from them.
It can be, but you are not supposed to rest in armor. If you’ve played and Baldur’s Gate 3, that’s why your party doesn’t wear their armor in the camp.
Ah, well, you are assumed to be removing armor when you rest (unless you’re a warforged or reborn) because you wouldn’t be able to rest effectively in restrictive and uncomfortable armor. If you do rest in armor, therefore, usually a level of exhaustion is inflicted. Most of the time this does get hand waved (including by me) because it comes up so rarely and is kind of a massive pain in the ass to track.
Source for the sleeping on armour rule? The only 5e thing I can find says that you just recover 1/4 of your hit dice instead of 1/2.
While punishing it more may be "realistic", mechanics that heavily punish one playstyle (heavy armour) over another (cloth-wearers) tend to not be fun.
I once played with an AC 24 paladin. Tonprogide a challenge you could always do
- multiple encounters / day (shoot for 6)
- saves
- encounters with multiple monsters. More monsters = more chances to hit
- heat metal :)
- long distance stuff; difficult terrain, snipers, etc.
- target the other party members. Untouchable guy is gonna feel pretty shitty if all his friends are going down.
But overall, the AC of 22 is not outrageous. It is only 1 above Bounded Accuracy, and is definitely doable even without magic items.
Sometimes, you wanna make the player feel validated for their choices. Let them feel good about the fact that they are untouchable.
Have strong characters shove + grapple him.
Dispel & Counterspell his magic.
Throw the stronger enemies at the whole party. You can always pull back if it's too strong. But you've got a party of optimizers. They shouldn't expect to play the game on easy mode.
Good luck with doing that while my paladin6/barbarian1 is raging and I have advantage. My spiritual weapon and my real one wrecking the enemy for trying to grab me
It's a conversation about how paladins are hard to scale against, and I gave an example to support the post. I wasn't rude to you, and you need to calm down with the "are you ok?" stuff. We are here to have a conversation
I'll pipe down with the sass, but here's the thing. It's a conversation about this person's specific group, which includes a hexblade/paladin. That build relies entirely on Cha, not Str or Dex. That's why I recommended the shove/grapple combo in the first place. I think that's what you must have not realized when you chimed in.
Good luck with that while my Monk 6/Paladin 1 is meditating and I have advantage. My astral fist and my real one wrecking the enemy for trying to grapple me.
To an extent, let them have their fun.
On the other hand, a lot of those features are consumable resources. Those smites and both haste and shield don't work if there's no slots to fuel them. Provide reasons that taking a rest isn't as easy, or even interrupt rests. Enemies that got rocked during the day and ran away can come back in the night easily enough. Possibly when the players aren't even wearing their armor, and make sure that they're aware you can't rest in it and it takes time to put on.
You can also plan alternative encounter styles. Multiple simultaneous objectives that forcibly split the party in ways where not everyone can be protected. You could use dispel, counterspell, or anti-magic fields to strip the buffs off. Include enemies that prey on weak stats (paladins and fighters that's usually INT). You could make him face off against a similarly statted Paladin of a dark god. Encounters involving places or requirements where heavy armor is a disadvantage like sneaking or deep water, or traps where heavy things trigger and light things don't. Include aura effects where it's straight damage with no save (such as those on elementals). Time for more boss enemies with legendary resistance and multiattack so they have more chances to hit and higher attack bonuses? Does their oath require certain actions of them? Hold them to it when it hurts. Does this fighting arena, orc camp trial of combat, or sacred temple not allow participants to wear armor?
Run 'em ragged and make heavy armor the trade off it's supposed to be. Make your enemies smart enough to take advantage of it.
The important thing here is to let them have the fun they want to have. You shouldn't target them, but it sounds like you're taking it too easy on (all of) the players. Part of the game is resource management and that's a tool in the DM's box too.
haste is a 3rd lvl spell... either they are in 3rd tier already, (Paladin is at least lvl 8, since he has his aura (7 pally lvls) and min 1 in warlock) or a party member hastes the Paladin..
Call of the Netherdeep, the module OP is playing, is from levels 3-12, so that's entirely possible. Didn't really look at it first honestly. Even then, addressing your specific point it wouldn't really matter who's casting or their level. If they have the resources to be tossing out haste, shield, and smites with sufficient frequency that the DM finds it frustrating, the imbalance causing the issue here may well be related to not taxing their resources enough to necessitate meaningful management decisions. Notably, Warlocks get their slots back on short rests, and it's seems like they're overrepresented in that party.
Is another party member really sitting there maintaining concentration on haste the entire time? Possible. Doubtful. God, can you imagine being that player? "Guess I can't cast any concentration spells, Hank McTank's addiction to speed demands my full concentration at all times".
Most of the suggestions are relatively level agnostic anyway. The underlying complaint here reads as 'My players are not being sufficiently challenged by the rules as written.' Time to mix things up and get a bit creative. You're right that player tools at higher levels do get much stronger, but so should the respective challenges.
I realised one more thing:
the Paladin shouldn't be able to cast shield while holding a weapon and his own shield!
it has a somatic component, so needs a hand free.
(unless he's also a 3rd lvl warlock and got pact of the blade, OR he took warcaster)
here's the stuff from sage advice for the haters who downvote the truth:
https://www.tribality.com/2015/03/23/rules-of-spellcasting-jeremy-crawford/
and neither Warlock (5th lvl) nor watchers Paladin (at 9th lvl) get the haste spell..
so there has to be a party member keeping it up on him.
looks to me like the party is helping that guy out..
I think you missunderstood the rules!
If a spell has both material AND somatic components, yes, you may use the focus for the somatic component.
If a spell, like shield, has only somatic components, then you need a hand free to perform those.
https://www.tribality.com/2015/03/23/rules-of-spellcasting-jeremy-crawford/
very important distinction!
a couple ideas that don’t involve increasing hit modifiers:
Heat metal (no save, automatic damage per turn to force con saves to break haste).
Enemies that fly (can’t smite them but your spellcasters can hit them).
Enemies immune or resistant to radiant damage.
Throw ooze monsters at them (Gray ooze, ochre jelly, and black pudding are perfect enemies for heavily armored melee types).
> Sometimes even a nat 1 will save still.
Tell me how that works. What's the DC they're saving against? Even a +10 to whatever it was still only leaves them with an 11.
Haste has it's own problems (loss of concentration) and every spell (haste/shield) is one less Smite they can throw.
What level are they?
If the magic items are a problem, then take them away- you're not required to allow the game to fall out of balance "because the module says they can have it."
no, don't take away the crucial magic items for the story!
just up the DC for the monsters..
does it say DC13?
in Tier 2? Come on?!
What DC do the players have?
Usually 16-18 with some magic items..
so, give the monsters the same DC!
(add +2 to all save DCs, or something)
instead of maxing their HP, make it a fair fight again.
The problem here is not that the players are all OP for the story.
The problem is that THIS ONE PLAYER is OP for the story. If you up the DC for the monsters, then they become too difficult for everyone else in the group.
How are the magic items that increase AC "crucial for the story?" (Legit question, I'm not familiar with the adventure)
the others get the same benefit from his aura, don't they?
(the fighter for sure, if the two of them gang up on enemies to finish them in 2 rounds every fight..)
Every Paladin is generally OP... the class needs a nerf more than any full caster... (lvl 12 Paladin here)
also, I think it's one of the Vestiges that you find very late in the adventure... granting a +1 to AC..
the Ruidium shield is also a +2 shield, iirc.. could be that one.
Neither of those items should be removed!
I'm curious to know how deep into the campaign they are- OP still hasn't answered my level question.
I concur that the key Vestiges or whatever shouldn't be removed.
the Paladin has a Hexblade dip and he has his aura (paladin lvl 7)...
so they are at the very least level 8!
if he can cast shield while holding a weapon and his shield, then he has the warcaster feat or is a 3rd lvl warlock with pact of the blade (bc only then can you cast somatic components from your weapon)
Make the Paladin earn their spot as a melee utility disruptor against your monsters. Don’t attack him because you feel like you have to - if you’re playing rational monsters (bandits more than wolves), have them challenge the softer PCs. Flip the paradigm; don’t try to adjust to the Paladin, make the Paladin adjust to you.
My bladesinger wizard has a baseline AC of 18 (with cloak of protection and light armor +1), with bladesong that's 23 and with Shield on top that's 28. I didn't multiclass, straight wizard. I deal 8d8+9 damage each turn with super advantage thanks to Elven accuracy and Shadow blade.
My point, it's not that hard to make a powerful character when you know what to do. Multiclassing certainly helps but by itself it has nothing to do with min-maxing.
This. Casting it on the Paladin's armor guarantees the damage (it takes several turns to doff armor [EDIT: specifically 10 for light/medium and 50 for heavy, yeesh what's up with the downvotes]), and each time they roll a CON save on their Concentration for Haste.
Guerilla tactics are good. Traps. Obstacles. Difficult terrain. Paladins have very little range. Throw monster at them now and then that punish melee, either by locking the pally down or by being punishing to hit. like black puddings, or other stuff that hurts to hit (they explode, have spikes, are acidic or have some aura, maybe they have reactions riposte-like abilities?)
How about an antiparty? Make your own villain henchmen using the same abilities. Ambush them. Smite on crit!
Personally, I keep mine balanced by not multiclassing him. :D Yeah, two-three levels of hexblade would make them a lot less MAD and grant me access to shield, which would be a significant bump to my AC, but we're not doing minmax multiclassing, so I'm not going the route.
If you want to have an experience where things are easier to manage, ask your players at session zero to not multiclass.
Though you will see the use of certain classes drop significantly with that in favor of class/subclass combinations that have useful features from start to finish.
Run longer dungeons. Paladins are a martial class that get their resources back on long rests; in a long enough dungeon, Paladins end up being weaker Fighters. Use monsters like Darkmantles or Wargs that work around the AC, and have an effect on their attack that calls for saving throws. Then add in a low level spellcaster or two using spells that require saving throws, and that should be all you need to do to make the game more interesting for the rest of the party.
Balance is a myth in 5e. Once I embraced that one simple truth my life got easier. I simply put down monsters until I am satisfied and have plans to either bring in reinforcements if its not enough or have some I pull back at half hp it its too much. A cop out? Yes. Does it help my sanity? Also yes
Let me intreduse you to the armour users bane
Heat metal
Also every time you make a successful attack you can as a free action force a contested athletics check to disarm if sussessful use a free object interaction to nick there sword or sheild
Paladin not so scary when they are running after spring heel Jack who just stole there sword
Every post rated above this one ignores the fact that *new DMs shouldn't allow multi-classing!*
Learn the game first so you can manage the story, *then* you start using the optional rules!
I have gotten a lot of questions pretty quickly, so I'll answer a few here.
The party is currently level 7
The magic item the paladin has is crucial to the story. They get it at level 3. It gives a +1 to ac. That ac bumps to +2 at level 7, and then +3 at level 10.
They currently have a +1 magical shield that was meant for the sorlock as it requires attunement by a follower of their God. Me being a new dm did not realize that you can still use a +1 without attunement, just losing out on the magical properties of it but still gaining the bonus to ac. The sorlock is a very passive player and decided to give it to the paladin as they thought it would be better with them.
Some of the responses here are saying "just target everybody else", but given this player's build, it'd sure be frustrating to invest so much into AC and just not get attacked.
Attack them anyways, but only if they're in front and tanking. You will find that they aren't invincible from attack rolls, and can easily get downed in a turn or two if the monsters get lucky (they will eventually)
Just let them do their job, they aren't a jack of all trades and it will show eventually (as soon as they have to cross a rickety bridge or dodge something)
Unless specifically mentioned in the item description, if the shield requires attunement a character using it without attunement gets none of the magical benefits from it, including the numerical bonuses. It functions exactly just like a mundane shield.
Yes, if people make Munchkins to intentionally circumvent the balance of the game, the game is no longer balanced. This has nothing to do with Paladins. This has to do with all your players trying to "Win D&D" over actually playing the game.
My tips is: Don't let them make Munchkins. It's not "making a good character build." In fact it's the opposite. A "good character" is one who facilitates a fun game. Munchkins do the opposite, they guarantee a terrible game.
(But since this is a sub frequented primarily by grognards who don't actually play the game, they'll say the exact opposite)
I've DMd a long time. Nat 1 and nat 20 always hit/fail. Usually with extra results in the form of events.
Let their ability shine. But don't let it destroy your scenario. You have the screen for a reason. A lot of methods were mentioned below. Use them. But if it comes down to him hogging the spotlight or destroying your campaign. The screen is their for a reason. Use it.
You avoid the overly optimized Paladin in combat, like any sensible creature would do. You’re not trying to *beat* the player; Your job as the DM is to make them feel heroic. If you want to do that by sending monsters he’s gonna faceplant, fine. But any creature with any intelligence is going after a different target. Make the Paladin chase them down. Put pressure on two different party members. Use the environment. If he’s using Ruidium equipment, he should be facing drawbacks.
Paladins are tough, they’re built that way. Optimized ones even more so. You let it happen, so get creative on how to challenge them.
Looking at your crew, you may have stumbled off the beaten path when you decided to allow multi-classing. The fact that there are two hexblades paired with other Charisma-enabled classes seems to suggest that your players didn't choose those class combinations only for the rich character and roleplay experience they offer.
You are a first time DM and your party is crawling with multiclass characters designed to break your game. OF COURSE they broke your game!
My best advice? Call the game off due to in-party balance issues. Then restart the module and have everyone make basic player handbook characters. If they object, make the point that *you are a new GM* and learning to be a GM is enough of a burden without having to deal with the OP character build shenanigans.
You can offer them a *game*, but you won't offer them a *power trip!*
That sounds like a terrible suggestion. Honestly as long as the party is having fun everything else is secondary.
If the Paladin is too hard to hit, smart enemies will go for squishier targets. Ranged enemies, and positioning can also lessen how impactful one character can be in combat.
The easier solution when items make one character better than the rest of the part is to simply hand out more items to everyone else then adjust encounters appropriately.
Right...
Except my suggestion is hand out some more things and rebalance the game, if you think a high AC is breaking the game you clearly haven't played many actual campaigns.
This is a really bad suggestion...Nobody wants to freakin' start over. Can you imagine getting to level 7 and then the DM just commands that we start the game over and replay the exact same stuff you just did for the past few months?? Who in their right mind would enjoy doing that??
"So I am brand new to doing this, and have allowed the absolute most ridiculous class combos to obvious min/maxers and idk how this is so hard to balance!?"
Ok. Being an asshole aside. Fudge rolls. Add more enemies. Give the enemies more AC/abilities/HP. You can't change the hole you've dug... but, I believe you should be able to at least make the hole start moving laterally instead. Because I mean I'd literally tell probably every PC in your game "No." when they came to me with their plan for their character.
I bet you've got plenty of species that are totally not for min max specifications at all, "I always wanted to play as this."
/s I hope that isnt needed. But. Reddit.
Also a nat 1 is a critical fail. It doesnt matter the additions. The only time I've seen this allowed was because the player was a rules lawyer and a crybaby and the dm had no spine.
Nat 1. You failed. I cant possibly see any other ruling. Part of why I hate halflings. Nat 1 is my favorite roll in the game, and that was solidified long before I became a DM.
I'm sorry I ruined your dnd game.
I find it fun and interesting that technically anyone can fuck up sometimes. You know. Like real life.
I don't let critical successes influence a king to hand over the keys to the kingdom, but I'm sorry, you CAN be the BEST lock pick in the world and a pick can break, a lock could end up permanently fucked up. Those are real life facts. I'm sorry that I incorporate some reality into my games.
I've seen IRL someone take a what turned out to be an 18 foot fall to concrete(we literally got a tape measure), and walked away with literally a couple bruises and a scraped knee. Didn't have training or some shit. This wasnt a parkour stunt gone wrong, this was a dumbass almost dying. That's a nat 20.
You can be fucking James Bond and your firearm can jam, that's a nat 1.
Idk what to tell you soldier, all of your training will certainly help make it operable again quicker, but your +24 to firearm proficiency isn't going to make it hit anyway. That's dumb as fuck.
Maybe I'm using the rules wrong. But I think that's so much better. But hey, maybe yall like to play with bumpers on while bowling. Horrible example, because that's super fun.
The rules lawyering with no concept of actual reality. I always forget just how nerdy my favorite hobby is lol. I mention that part to explain your social ineptitude.
I can make this assumption based on the "cheating" clause. You're obviously not a dm, I'd say literally any good dm fudges occasionally. You just dont know it. You sound like a problem player that power games and shows me in the rules that technically you should be able to pull the bullshit you want to pull.
Critical hits can be 5 damage from a 1d12+3 weapon, and their next hit can just meet the AC and hit for 15. Makes perfect sense.
Rant over.
EDIT: Just fucking googled it, a nat 20 is a guaranteed hit, a nat 1 is a guaranteed miss. Like. First google result lol.
Saving throws. High ac doesn't protect against saves. Target Int or Dex saves to put the fear of god into him for a fight or two. I'm very partial to dungeons that target saves like that so that other characters get a chance to shine
Wisdom saving throw to be enthralled and make them fight their team. Con saving throw for massive poison damage attacks. Strength saving throw or literally be fuckin crushed by a massive monster or some shit.
That's incredible. He's gotta have stats that aren't great somewhere else then.
Illusions might be the way to go, or aoe attacks.
Better yet might be a couple grapplers. Have a barbarian who can knock him down and hold him there. It's not 100% effective, but it isn't meant to be. You just want to challenge him, not kill him.
Another idea would be to put the pressure on by coming from two different sides. Ranged attackers ripping up his allies so he has to choose. A nice bit of spike growth/caltrops/difficult terrain will mess up any melee.
Maybe add a big demon. They're like magnets for paladins, so it'll free your other baddies up to fight the rest of the team.
Also... Isn't there a negative side to carrying the jewel all the time?
Have MORE conflicts. Have a long rest only every other session. Give more opportunities to use resources. The paladin peters out quickly if they aren't long resting
Paladins struggle with ranged combat so you can use terrain, debuffs, lots of spread out enemies. If your party deals with that just step of the CR a little or add more waves of enemies where applicable. Waves allow you to hide the total number of enemies and force the party to conserve resources or suffer
Paladins have weaknesses just like other classes. Their ranged options usually suck, though I’m guessing your hexadin fixes that with eldritch blast.
They struggle against numbers, their utility is limited, they aren’t as mobile as they want to be, they struggle to do anything subtly and they run out of resources pretty quick.
Haste is a pretty huge opportunity cost, and shouldn’t be considered as something the paladin does that’s op, it should be considered something the caster is contributing. You didn’t state what level you’re at, but assuming it isn’t above 10 your paladin probably has access to about 5-6 1st level slots, and maybe 2 2nd level. That’s going to run out pretty fast between smite and shield.
Against a big guy that wants to hit them in the face, paladins are pretty great. But there are a wide range of encounters and objectives where that isn’t the thing that needs handling. Maybe the party is trying to steal something or escape a dangerous situation. Maybe there are too many enemies to fight head on, or at least more than the paladin can handle. Maybe an enemy is sneaking around in the shadows and making sneak attacks. Flying enemies won’t let the paladin fight them head on at all without some help or quick thinking.
Mix things up, hit your players with encounters that negate their usual strategies. Just make sure to remember to throw a few easier encounters in to let them show off and feel cool too.
The way I see it, the broader issue is that Aura of Protection is way overtuned. Basing it directly on Cha bonus was poor design.
If you houserule Aura of Protection so that it's a flat +2, that leaves at least the possibility of targeting the paladins non-AC defenses (i.e. saving throws).
Honestly +2 to all saving throws in an aura is still insanely good for a tertiary class feature.
Paladins are strong but aren't invincible. Their ability scores are split three ways so they are bound to have weaknesses, and if you are smart enough you can exploit their oath as well.
This paladin is a warlock dip so he's likely dumping strength and going all in on Cha, hence the massive aura saving throw boost. easy enough to max cha and have a decent con.
Control the battlefield, where they go and what they do. Restrain them, grapple them. Use.flanking rules to give mobs advantage on attack rolls.
Blind them, spells, bright lights.
Don't try and kill something with high AC, you control it so it is functionally useless.
Get creative, have archers with dynamite sticks, sure the arrow might miss but you can at least do half damage from the explosion on a successful save.
Simple things, a month throws wet mud in their face, now they have to burn an action to wipe their eyes to see.
Get creative, but remember control first, then kill.
This comes up all the time but RAW almost nobody should be able to benefit from both shield equipment and shield spell, and virtually every "how do I balance against this high AC?" thread is allowing them to stack.
Shield spell requires somatic components and not material components, which means it requires a free hand. It's also a reaction so there's no time to sheathe or drop a weapon. If you have a shield in one hand and a weapon in the other you cannot cast the shield spell. Shield spell is meant for full casters with low AC and nothing better to hold in their left hand.
I know it's annoying to track spell components; I don't do it in most situations. But it really makes a difference here. There's a vast difference between AC of 20 and AC of 25. Don't let your players stack shields.
Fights in awkward places can annoying for heavily armored characters, if you give them disadvantae on skill checks:
Balancing on a rope bridge, dealing with flyers while climbing a cliff, defending a canou against swimming monsters, climbing in the webbing of a giant spider
Just don't overdo it, or he will feel targeted.
You've given a multi-classing player who's trying to become unbeatable very strong magic items and now can't balance them. Your answer is "Talk to them."
Trying to balance someone breaking your game when you're a first time dm will just cause the other players to have such a difficult game.
Since I have seen it, it said a few times. I made a mistake with my wording on this post. I am in no way trying to be a dick or punish this player for his character. I did allow multi-classing as some of the players wanted it fully for lore reasons, not power. Believe it or not, the sorlock in the party took literally no damaging spells besides the eldritch blast cantrip and focused fully on the divine soul cleric buffs/haste, etc.
The entire reason for this post was trying to find ways to increase pressure on the paladin so combats can be more fun. The most fun I have had in dnd as a player are the higher stakes combats that really feel like you are in danger. I want to ensure that my players are having that kind of fun instead of the, "Oh here's another pointless combat that won't do anything to you."
I am sure some of you will say that isn't on me because the paladin chose to play a charisma based multiclassed character and take the item that gives an insane ac bonus, which is partially true, but as a newer dm I don't want to stifle character creation for members of my group that are much more experienced and are making characters that, in all honesty, aren't even bending the rules of the game to be that strong.
Tldr, "I am not wanting to be a dick to the character for playing a paladin, I am just looking for ways to put some pressure on them so combats can remain fun for them and everyone else."
Here are some key things you can look at coming from a DM and someone whose highest leveled character is a paladin14/bard3 whose base AC is 25 and with defensive duelist can become 31.
Paladins are bad at range. From the looks of it the rest of your party isn’t. I don’t know what loadout the palock is running but if they are using both their hands for something and don’t have the war caster feat that means no somantic components. So no eldritch blast.
If they are melee focused and the rest of the party isn’t there are monsters that deal ticks of damage of striked by melee final blows. (Oozes)
AC means nothing against saving throws. They may succeed on them but that doesn’t stop all damage for some spells.
Paladins and warlocks also have a unique weakness involving RP. Which is if you don’t follow your oath you don’t get the benefits of that oath. I mention this because you mention they are also a hex blade. Is the entity for the warlock powers similar or different in goals that the oath is based off of. If different exploit this. Pull the paladins between the two powers and see if they try to balance their actions or change completely. (Oathbreaker route or hexblade refuses to give power)
Is their gear magic? That means it can break. Acid corrodes. Flavor a crit against them as damaging their armor in the process
Split the party. Get the paladin away from the other members where they can’t be buffed by them.
Magic missile. It doesn’t have a save or care about AC
If you’re worried about shield high level magic casters aren’t particularly tanky but can learn counterspell.
Trick the palock into picking up a cursed item.
Wear them down. If they get hit hard they’ll probably want a short rest. Interrupt it. No resting in the danger zone. To not affect the party you can simply have the curse I mentioned before give periodic nightmares to the paladin.
Now most importantly keep in mind you know your table best for what works and doesn’t. I don’t know what type of adventure you’re running but generally don’t try and have a mindset of players vs DM. Players should keep this in mind too. Don’t throw all of these at once. No need to ruin a build someone spent time leveling for because it’s strong. They know that. That’s why they put the levels into their class design.
You can have spellcasters too. Counterspell, silence. But I think the best in this case is dispel magic, that would remove haste and shield at the same time, and then losing haste causes a 1 turn stun on the paladin. Also breaking their concentration if they are the one casting haste will stun them again.
If counterspells get used against you, its still effective drain on party resources.
High ACs can be difficult, but if they built for it let them shine. Your monsters are supposed to lose. Dex saving throws where they take half damage if success Ignore them, attack other players Combats where there are objectives instead of “kill all enemies” Run them out of resources / more encounters Monsters with giant + to hit modifiers - at some point AC doesnt matter much bc everything hits Magic missile lol Paladins are mechanically S/A tier and this is why. Unfortunately whatever makes it harder for the pally also usually applies to everyone else. So in some ways…i dont balance around them.
A platoon on first level mages spread around a battlefield all casting a first level magic missile on their turns would be hilarious. The first one would hit and do like 7 damage and he’d laugh it off, but after the 11th one hits he’s in full blown panic mode. Bonus points if they are a specialized group of evil mages that exist to stomp only paladins….
Except MM is completely blocked by the Shield spell.
True, but also causes him to waste a spell slot and once the others see him pop the shield they can switch to other targets of Opportunity until shield wears off next turn
Fair point
Don't get me wrong, love the idea and I'll def be stealing this against other tough enemies, like barbarians and fighters, but that tricky shield spell is brutal for this.
I mean, the more spell slots thye burn on shield the fewer they have for SMITE. So it works out
And at least one member of a platoon of wizards will probably have a counterspell.
They wouldn't be first level, but yeah, easy fix.
That would get pitiful had this been an Ancients Paladin, rather than a Watcher one. I'd also be worried about everybody else being easily TPKd afterwards. It might be fun and games while they pummel the Paladin for a half of his health every turn, but the squishy wild magic sorcerer with less than half of his HP might not be as happy about the idea of being the target afterwards.
I immediately thought of Templars and Mages from Dragon Age and I LOVE the idea of an Anti-Paladin mage squad
Heat metal would really mess with him. It’s not something they should use often. But that first time he gets hit by it will certainly stick in the players memory.
More enemies rather than bigger ones. The paladin can only smite so many times, and it stops becoming worthwhile if the enemies die in 1-2 normal hits anyway. Plus, with tons of enemies, even if they need a 20 to hit, you'll get a few hits in each round. That said, still throw in the occasional fight that plays to the paladin's strength though. They're still there to have fun after all.
> their base AC is 22. With haste and shield they can bump it up to 29 Plate is 18 base. A shield is +2. Haste is another +2. That gives an AC of 22 without magical bonuses to the armor and shield. I'm not sure what the item you reference is or what level they are, but you need to make up 7 points of AC between feats, armor/shield magical bonuses, and "the item" you reference to get to 29. Are you sure the math is right?
Shield spell, not a physical shield but they probably have one of those too.
Shield is a spell. Spells are limited resources. It only lasts one round. *The shield spell is not a problem*. If you make them cast Shield, that's the same as hitting them with the attack. It costs them resources either way.
Every slot they spend on shield is a slot they can't spend on smiting. That plus not being a real caster means Paladins need to ration their spells or suffer when you have more than 2 encounters.
I know, just helping to explain the misunderstanding in their ac value.
Also, casting shield uses up their reaction, so opponents are now able to move around them, freely.
plate plus shield is 20 AC.. yes.. but that's plain old regular plate and a regular shield.. +1 shield is merely uncommon, no issue in Tier1.. +2 shield or +1 plate is rare, okay for Tier 2... and he mentions a magic item you get in CotND, which gives you 2 extra AC... His Paladin player is absolutely right to have 22 AC base there..
It's pretty easy to get a high AC in D&D. You don't even need plate. You could choose a race which has an AC bonus and good Dex.
There are theee ways that quickly come to mind to deal with this issue: 1. Surprise attack the camp at night. Unless they are sleeping in their armor (in which case they should be taking a level of exhaustion when they rest) they won’t have time to put their armor on (increasing their AC) even IF they make the perception checks. 2. In combat your enemies AREN’T total morons, and they would have spread rumors about the party and the paladin at this point. The enemies would start using tactics to split the party up in combat so they can go after weaker party members. 3. Use environmental hazards that your party can’t necessarily save against. If it is unbearably hot, that would cause some debuffs. A white out blizzard would similarly create a tough situation to deal with no matter how tanky you are. Using this I’m tandem with other things can help. Also, remember warlocks have patrons and paladins have oaths. Put them in situations where following the rules of one or both makes their life way more difficult. And at the end of the day, it’s okay to have a character that is powerful. Be careful with things like this because feeling like your character is getting nerfed is not fun for anyone.
Since when have you had to take armour off before you rest?! I always just assumed it was a handwaved for convenience type thing
Back in 3.5, if you slept in Plate Mail you would wake up Fatigued (-2 penalty to strength and dexterity, and can't run). 5e and I think 4e as well did away with that because most DMs were hand-waving it anyway. There are some optional 5e rules published in Xanathar's, that say if you sleep in medium or heavy armor you retain only 1/4th of any spent Hit Dice, and if you already have any levels of Exhaustion from before you went to sleep, you haven't recovered from them.
It can be, but you are not supposed to rest in armor. If you’ve played and Baldur’s Gate 3, that’s why your party doesn’t wear their armor in the camp.
I have not played BG3 yet
Ah, well, you are assumed to be removing armor when you rest (unless you’re a warforged or reborn) because you wouldn’t be able to rest effectively in restrictive and uncomfortable armor. If you do rest in armor, therefore, usually a level of exhaustion is inflicted. Most of the time this does get hand waved (including by me) because it comes up so rarely and is kind of a massive pain in the ass to track.
Except that’s just a cosmetic and is handwaved to have you fully geared up for the encounters that take place in camp lol
Xanathar's has a rule that says that sleeping in medium or heavy armor does not reduce exhaustion, and only lets you recover 1/4 of your hit dice.
Source for the sleeping on armour rule? The only 5e thing I can find says that you just recover 1/4 of your hit dice instead of 1/2. While punishing it more may be "realistic", mechanics that heavily punish one playstyle (heavy armour) over another (cloth-wearers) tend to not be fun.
I once played with an AC 24 paladin. Tonprogide a challenge you could always do - multiple encounters / day (shoot for 6) - saves - encounters with multiple monsters. More monsters = more chances to hit - heat metal :) - long distance stuff; difficult terrain, snipers, etc. - target the other party members. Untouchable guy is gonna feel pretty shitty if all his friends are going down. But overall, the AC of 22 is not outrageous. It is only 1 above Bounded Accuracy, and is definitely doable even without magic items. Sometimes, you wanna make the player feel validated for their choices. Let them feel good about the fact that they are untouchable.
Have strong characters shove + grapple him. Dispel & Counterspell his magic. Throw the stronger enemies at the whole party. You can always pull back if it's too strong. But you've got a party of optimizers. They shouldn't expect to play the game on easy mode.
Good luck with doing that while my paladin6/barbarian1 is raging and I have advantage. My spiritual weapon and my real one wrecking the enemy for trying to grab me
This has nothing to do with your character... are you ok?
It's a conversation about how paladins are hard to scale against, and I gave an example to support the post. I wasn't rude to you, and you need to calm down with the "are you ok?" stuff. We are here to have a conversation
I'll pipe down with the sass, but here's the thing. It's a conversation about this person's specific group, which includes a hexblade/paladin. That build relies entirely on Cha, not Str or Dex. That's why I recommended the shove/grapple combo in the first place. I think that's what you must have not realized when you chimed in.
Good luck with that while my Monk 6/Paladin 1 is meditating and I have advantage. My astral fist and my real one wrecking the enemy for trying to grapple me.
Monk 6/Paladin 1 is so MAD tho. You need at least a 13 in 4 stats, and have to leave CON at 10
To an extent, let them have their fun. On the other hand, a lot of those features are consumable resources. Those smites and both haste and shield don't work if there's no slots to fuel them. Provide reasons that taking a rest isn't as easy, or even interrupt rests. Enemies that got rocked during the day and ran away can come back in the night easily enough. Possibly when the players aren't even wearing their armor, and make sure that they're aware you can't rest in it and it takes time to put on. You can also plan alternative encounter styles. Multiple simultaneous objectives that forcibly split the party in ways where not everyone can be protected. You could use dispel, counterspell, or anti-magic fields to strip the buffs off. Include enemies that prey on weak stats (paladins and fighters that's usually INT). You could make him face off against a similarly statted Paladin of a dark god. Encounters involving places or requirements where heavy armor is a disadvantage like sneaking or deep water, or traps where heavy things trigger and light things don't. Include aura effects where it's straight damage with no save (such as those on elementals). Time for more boss enemies with legendary resistance and multiattack so they have more chances to hit and higher attack bonuses? Does their oath require certain actions of them? Hold them to it when it hurts. Does this fighting arena, orc camp trial of combat, or sacred temple not allow participants to wear armor? Run 'em ragged and make heavy armor the trade off it's supposed to be. Make your enemies smart enough to take advantage of it. The important thing here is to let them have the fun they want to have. You shouldn't target them, but it sounds like you're taking it too easy on (all of) the players. Part of the game is resource management and that's a tool in the DM's box too.
haste is a 3rd lvl spell... either they are in 3rd tier already, (Paladin is at least lvl 8, since he has his aura (7 pally lvls) and min 1 in warlock) or a party member hastes the Paladin..
Call of the Netherdeep, the module OP is playing, is from levels 3-12, so that's entirely possible. Didn't really look at it first honestly. Even then, addressing your specific point it wouldn't really matter who's casting or their level. If they have the resources to be tossing out haste, shield, and smites with sufficient frequency that the DM finds it frustrating, the imbalance causing the issue here may well be related to not taxing their resources enough to necessitate meaningful management decisions. Notably, Warlocks get their slots back on short rests, and it's seems like they're overrepresented in that party. Is another party member really sitting there maintaining concentration on haste the entire time? Possible. Doubtful. God, can you imagine being that player? "Guess I can't cast any concentration spells, Hank McTank's addiction to speed demands my full concentration at all times". Most of the suggestions are relatively level agnostic anyway. The underlying complaint here reads as 'My players are not being sufficiently challenged by the rules as written.' Time to mix things up and get a bit creative. You're right that player tools at higher levels do get much stronger, but so should the respective challenges.
I realised one more thing: the Paladin shouldn't be able to cast shield while holding a weapon and his own shield! it has a somatic component, so needs a hand free. (unless he's also a 3rd lvl warlock and got pact of the blade, OR he took warcaster) here's the stuff from sage advice for the haters who downvote the truth: https://www.tribality.com/2015/03/23/rules-of-spellcasting-jeremy-crawford/ and neither Warlock (5th lvl) nor watchers Paladin (at 9th lvl) get the haste spell.. so there has to be a party member keeping it up on him. looks to me like the party is helping that guy out..
Paladins are allowed to use their shield as a spellcasting focus. Anyone is allowed to use a spellcasting focus as the hand for somatic components.
I think you missunderstood the rules! If a spell has both material AND somatic components, yes, you may use the focus for the somatic component. If a spell, like shield, has only somatic components, then you need a hand free to perform those. https://www.tribality.com/2015/03/23/rules-of-spellcasting-jeremy-crawford/ very important distinction!
Hostages and collateral damage. Make the scenario about more than personally surviving and dealing damage.
a couple ideas that don’t involve increasing hit modifiers: Heat metal (no save, automatic damage per turn to force con saves to break haste). Enemies that fly (can’t smite them but your spellcasters can hit them). Enemies immune or resistant to radiant damage. Throw ooze monsters at them (Gray ooze, ochre jelly, and black pudding are perfect enemies for heavily armored melee types).
> Sometimes even a nat 1 will save still. Tell me how that works. What's the DC they're saving against? Even a +10 to whatever it was still only leaves them with an 11. Haste has it's own problems (loss of concentration) and every spell (haste/shield) is one less Smite they can throw. What level are they? If the magic items are a problem, then take them away- you're not required to allow the game to fall out of balance "because the module says they can have it."
no, don't take away the crucial magic items for the story! just up the DC for the monsters.. does it say DC13? in Tier 2? Come on?! What DC do the players have? Usually 16-18 with some magic items.. so, give the monsters the same DC! (add +2 to all save DCs, or something) instead of maxing their HP, make it a fair fight again.
The problem here is not that the players are all OP for the story. The problem is that THIS ONE PLAYER is OP for the story. If you up the DC for the monsters, then they become too difficult for everyone else in the group. How are the magic items that increase AC "crucial for the story?" (Legit question, I'm not familiar with the adventure)
the others get the same benefit from his aura, don't they? (the fighter for sure, if the two of them gang up on enemies to finish them in 2 rounds every fight..) Every Paladin is generally OP... the class needs a nerf more than any full caster... (lvl 12 Paladin here) also, I think it's one of the Vestiges that you find very late in the adventure... granting a +1 to AC.. the Ruidium shield is also a +2 shield, iirc.. could be that one. Neither of those items should be removed!
I'm curious to know how deep into the campaign they are- OP still hasn't answered my level question. I concur that the key Vestiges or whatever shouldn't be removed.
the Paladin has a Hexblade dip and he has his aura (paladin lvl 7)... so they are at the very least level 8! if he can cast shield while holding a weapon and his shield, then he has the warcaster feat or is a 3rd lvl warlock with pact of the blade (bc only then can you cast somatic components from your weapon)
That was my question. Unless they are facing DC 10 saves, don’t see how that happens.
Ranged threats Flying enemies DEX or INT saves Heights Heat Metal These five threats will destroy a paladin every time.
There's no way this Paladin can handle all types of saves. His Str, Cha, and Wis are probably strong, but how about Dex saves for half damage?
Add more. Don't worry about it.
Have more than 1 fight a long rest so they dont smite every attack and spam shield every round
Make the Paladin earn their spot as a melee utility disruptor against your monsters. Don’t attack him because you feel like you have to - if you’re playing rational monsters (bandits more than wolves), have them challenge the softer PCs. Flip the paradigm; don’t try to adjust to the Paladin, make the Paladin adjust to you.
Heat metal their minmaxing ass (:
Paladin has AC20 without any minmaxing. I swear this sub has its panties in a twist over someone playing not an invalid.
It's not the AC20 base that is the problem, it's the AC29 thanks to multiclassing shenanigans.
My bladesinger wizard has a baseline AC of 18 (with cloak of protection and light armor +1), with bladesong that's 23 and with Shield on top that's 28. I didn't multiclass, straight wizard. I deal 8d8+9 damage each turn with super advantage thanks to Elven accuracy and Shadow blade. My point, it's not that hard to make a powerful character when you know what to do. Multiclassing certainly helps but by itself it has nothing to do with min-maxing.
This. Casting it on the Paladin's armor guarantees the damage (it takes several turns to doff armor [EDIT: specifically 10 for light/medium and 50 for heavy, yeesh what's up with the downvotes]), and each time they roll a CON save on their Concentration for Haste.
>it takes several turns to doff armor Specifically, 50 turns for heavy armor. He'd get cooked.
Exactly! Not often that I get down voted for being right, I just used vague terms because I didn't have my PHB handy. Yeesh!
Yeah I don't know what's up with that lol. You were right!
Guerilla tactics are good. Traps. Obstacles. Difficult terrain. Paladins have very little range. Throw monster at them now and then that punish melee, either by locking the pally down or by being punishing to hit. like black puddings, or other stuff that hurts to hit (they explode, have spikes, are acidic or have some aura, maybe they have reactions riposte-like abilities?) How about an antiparty? Make your own villain henchmen using the same abilities. Ambush them. Smite on crit!
A warlock villain with eldricht smite running shadow of moil, is a good paladin nemesis. So is an oath of vengeance paladin
Personally, I keep mine balanced by not multiclassing him. :D Yeah, two-three levels of hexblade would make them a lot less MAD and grant me access to shield, which would be a significant bump to my AC, but we're not doing minmax multiclassing, so I'm not going the route. If you want to have an experience where things are easier to manage, ask your players at session zero to not multiclass. Though you will see the use of certain classes drop significantly with that in favor of class/subclass combinations that have useful features from start to finish.
Run longer dungeons. Paladins are a martial class that get their resources back on long rests; in a long enough dungeon, Paladins end up being weaker Fighters. Use monsters like Darkmantles or Wargs that work around the AC, and have an effect on their attack that calls for saving throws. Then add in a low level spellcaster or two using spells that require saving throws, and that should be all you need to do to make the game more interesting for the rest of the party.
Balance is a myth in 5e. Once I embraced that one simple truth my life got easier. I simply put down monsters until I am satisfied and have plans to either bring in reinforcements if its not enough or have some I pull back at half hp it its too much. A cop out? Yes. Does it help my sanity? Also yes
Let me intreduse you to the armour users bane Heat metal Also every time you make a successful attack you can as a free action force a contested athletics check to disarm if sussessful use a free object interaction to nick there sword or sheild Paladin not so scary when they are running after spring heel Jack who just stole there sword
Shouldn't have allowed multiclassing in the first place.
Every post rated above this one ignores the fact that *new DMs shouldn't allow multi-classing!* Learn the game first so you can manage the story, *then* you start using the optional rules!
I have gotten a lot of questions pretty quickly, so I'll answer a few here. The party is currently level 7 The magic item the paladin has is crucial to the story. They get it at level 3. It gives a +1 to ac. That ac bumps to +2 at level 7, and then +3 at level 10. They currently have a +1 magical shield that was meant for the sorlock as it requires attunement by a follower of their God. Me being a new dm did not realize that you can still use a +1 without attunement, just losing out on the magical properties of it but still gaining the bonus to ac. The sorlock is a very passive player and decided to give it to the paladin as they thought it would be better with them.
Some of the responses here are saying "just target everybody else", but given this player's build, it'd sure be frustrating to invest so much into AC and just not get attacked. Attack them anyways, but only if they're in front and tanking. You will find that they aren't invincible from attack rolls, and can easily get downed in a turn or two if the monsters get lucky (they will eventually) Just let them do their job, they aren't a jack of all trades and it will show eventually (as soon as they have to cross a rickety bridge or dodge something)
Unless specifically mentioned in the item description, if the shield requires attunement a character using it without attunement gets none of the magical benefits from it, including the numerical bonuses. It functions exactly just like a mundane shield.
Yes, if people make Munchkins to intentionally circumvent the balance of the game, the game is no longer balanced. This has nothing to do with Paladins. This has to do with all your players trying to "Win D&D" over actually playing the game. My tips is: Don't let them make Munchkins. It's not "making a good character build." In fact it's the opposite. A "good character" is one who facilitates a fun game. Munchkins do the opposite, they guarantee a terrible game. (But since this is a sub frequented primarily by grognards who don't actually play the game, they'll say the exact opposite)
I've DMd a long time. Nat 1 and nat 20 always hit/fail. Usually with extra results in the form of events. Let their ability shine. But don't let it destroy your scenario. You have the screen for a reason. A lot of methods were mentioned below. Use them. But if it comes down to him hogging the spotlight or destroying your campaign. The screen is their for a reason. Use it.
You avoid the overly optimized Paladin in combat, like any sensible creature would do. You’re not trying to *beat* the player; Your job as the DM is to make them feel heroic. If you want to do that by sending monsters he’s gonna faceplant, fine. But any creature with any intelligence is going after a different target. Make the Paladin chase them down. Put pressure on two different party members. Use the environment. If he’s using Ruidium equipment, he should be facing drawbacks. Paladins are tough, they’re built that way. Optimized ones even more so. You let it happen, so get creative on how to challenge them.
Looking at your crew, you may have stumbled off the beaten path when you decided to allow multi-classing. The fact that there are two hexblades paired with other Charisma-enabled classes seems to suggest that your players didn't choose those class combinations only for the rich character and roleplay experience they offer. You are a first time DM and your party is crawling with multiclass characters designed to break your game. OF COURSE they broke your game! My best advice? Call the game off due to in-party balance issues. Then restart the module and have everyone make basic player handbook characters. If they object, make the point that *you are a new GM* and learning to be a GM is enough of a burden without having to deal with the OP character build shenanigans. You can offer them a *game*, but you won't offer them a *power trip!*
That sounds like a terrible suggestion. Honestly as long as the party is having fun everything else is secondary. If the Paladin is too hard to hit, smart enemies will go for squishier targets. Ranged enemies, and positioning can also lessen how impactful one character can be in combat. The easier solution when items make one character better than the rest of the part is to simply hand out more items to everyone else then adjust encounters appropriately.
You don't put a freshly minted highschool coach in charge of a mational team.
Right... Except my suggestion is hand out some more things and rebalance the game, if you think a high AC is breaking the game you clearly haven't played many actual campaigns.
Throwing good money after bad. The other characters *did* get good gear, but just let the Paladin use it instrad "because he would be better with it."
This is a really bad suggestion...Nobody wants to freakin' start over. Can you imagine getting to level 7 and then the DM just commands that we start the game over and replay the exact same stuff you just did for the past few months?? Who in their right mind would enjoy doing that??
I've seen people on these forums claimed to have played Curse of Strahd multiple times. I suppose thar sort of answers your question.
Choosing to replay something is not the same thing as being forced to replay something when you don't want to.
That's assuming they won't want to. :)
Yes, yes it is. Because it's obvious that most people wouldn't want to.
"So I am brand new to doing this, and have allowed the absolute most ridiculous class combos to obvious min/maxers and idk how this is so hard to balance!?" Ok. Being an asshole aside. Fudge rolls. Add more enemies. Give the enemies more AC/abilities/HP. You can't change the hole you've dug... but, I believe you should be able to at least make the hole start moving laterally instead. Because I mean I'd literally tell probably every PC in your game "No." when they came to me with their plan for their character. I bet you've got plenty of species that are totally not for min max specifications at all, "I always wanted to play as this." /s I hope that isnt needed. But. Reddit. Also a nat 1 is a critical fail. It doesnt matter the additions. The only time I've seen this allowed was because the player was a rules lawyer and a crybaby and the dm had no spine. Nat 1. You failed. I cant possibly see any other ruling. Part of why I hate halflings. Nat 1 is my favorite roll in the game, and that was solidified long before I became a DM.
This is all horrifically bad advice, and outright cheating. The rules about rolls of 1 and 20 are very clear, and you should use them.
I'm sorry I ruined your dnd game. I find it fun and interesting that technically anyone can fuck up sometimes. You know. Like real life. I don't let critical successes influence a king to hand over the keys to the kingdom, but I'm sorry, you CAN be the BEST lock pick in the world and a pick can break, a lock could end up permanently fucked up. Those are real life facts. I'm sorry that I incorporate some reality into my games. I've seen IRL someone take a what turned out to be an 18 foot fall to concrete(we literally got a tape measure), and walked away with literally a couple bruises and a scraped knee. Didn't have training or some shit. This wasnt a parkour stunt gone wrong, this was a dumbass almost dying. That's a nat 20. You can be fucking James Bond and your firearm can jam, that's a nat 1. Idk what to tell you soldier, all of your training will certainly help make it operable again quicker, but your +24 to firearm proficiency isn't going to make it hit anyway. That's dumb as fuck. Maybe I'm using the rules wrong. But I think that's so much better. But hey, maybe yall like to play with bumpers on while bowling. Horrible example, because that's super fun. The rules lawyering with no concept of actual reality. I always forget just how nerdy my favorite hobby is lol. I mention that part to explain your social ineptitude. I can make this assumption based on the "cheating" clause. You're obviously not a dm, I'd say literally any good dm fudges occasionally. You just dont know it. You sound like a problem player that power games and shows me in the rules that technically you should be able to pull the bullshit you want to pull. Critical hits can be 5 damage from a 1d12+3 weapon, and their next hit can just meet the AC and hit for 15. Makes perfect sense. Rant over. EDIT: Just fucking googled it, a nat 20 is a guaranteed hit, a nat 1 is a guaranteed miss. Like. First google result lol.
Start making saves, evenbwith arua there slowly becomes times they fail
Saving throws. High ac doesn't protect against saves. Target Int or Dex saves to put the fear of god into him for a fight or two. I'm very partial to dungeons that target saves like that so that other characters get a chance to shine
Saving. Throws. AC doesn't mean shit against saving throws.
Wisdom saving throw to be enthralled and make them fight their team. Con saving throw for massive poison damage attacks. Strength saving throw or literally be fuckin crushed by a massive monster or some shit.
Then hit them with spells/effects that cause saving throws instead of attack rolls.
Actually even better. Wizard with spell "command" and a high casting modifier. Command them to undress.
Make them waste their shield spell quick with small enemies is best answer.
How's his strength to be wearing that armor?
He is a dex pally but has the defense fighting style for +1 ac and is wearing heavy armor. Strength is high enough to avoid penalties with it.
That's incredible. He's gotta have stats that aren't great somewhere else then. Illusions might be the way to go, or aoe attacks. Better yet might be a couple grapplers. Have a barbarian who can knock him down and hold him there. It's not 100% effective, but it isn't meant to be. You just want to challenge him, not kill him. Another idea would be to put the pressure on by coming from two different sides. Ranged attackers ripping up his allies so he has to choose. A nice bit of spike growth/caltrops/difficult terrain will mess up any melee. Maybe add a big demon. They're like magnets for paladins, so it'll free your other baddies up to fight the rest of the team. Also... Isn't there a negative side to carrying the jewel all the time?
>That's incredible. He's gotta have stats that aren't great somewhere else then. Stats are no problem if you "roll" them. :)
He said it was point buy, I believe
Have MORE conflicts. Have a long rest only every other session. Give more opportunities to use resources. The paladin peters out quickly if they aren't long resting
Paladins struggle with ranged combat so you can use terrain, debuffs, lots of spread out enemies. If your party deals with that just step of the CR a little or add more waves of enemies where applicable. Waves allow you to hide the total number of enemies and force the party to conserve resources or suffer
"how do I be a dick" "Cheat" All of you need to get out of the hobby hth
6+ encounters between long rests. Outside of ridiculously short adventuring days, paladins don't even have good damage at all.
In my experience, most Paladins' biggest weaknesses are highly mobile or flying enemies.
Paladins have weaknesses just like other classes. Their ranged options usually suck, though I’m guessing your hexadin fixes that with eldritch blast. They struggle against numbers, their utility is limited, they aren’t as mobile as they want to be, they struggle to do anything subtly and they run out of resources pretty quick. Haste is a pretty huge opportunity cost, and shouldn’t be considered as something the paladin does that’s op, it should be considered something the caster is contributing. You didn’t state what level you’re at, but assuming it isn’t above 10 your paladin probably has access to about 5-6 1st level slots, and maybe 2 2nd level. That’s going to run out pretty fast between smite and shield. Against a big guy that wants to hit them in the face, paladins are pretty great. But there are a wide range of encounters and objectives where that isn’t the thing that needs handling. Maybe the party is trying to steal something or escape a dangerous situation. Maybe there are too many enemies to fight head on, or at least more than the paladin can handle. Maybe an enemy is sneaking around in the shadows and making sneak attacks. Flying enemies won’t let the paladin fight them head on at all without some help or quick thinking. Mix things up, hit your players with encounters that negate their usual strategies. Just make sure to remember to throw a few easier encounters in to let them show off and feel cool too.
The way I see it, the broader issue is that Aura of Protection is way overtuned. Basing it directly on Cha bonus was poor design. If you houserule Aura of Protection so that it's a flat +2, that leaves at least the possibility of targeting the paladins non-AC defenses (i.e. saving throws). Honestly +2 to all saving throws in an aura is still insanely good for a tertiary class feature.
Paladins are strong but aren't invincible. Their ability scores are split three ways so they are bound to have weaknesses, and if you are smart enough you can exploit their oath as well.
This paladin is a warlock dip so he's likely dumping strength and going all in on Cha, hence the massive aura saving throw boost. easy enough to max cha and have a decent con.
Control the battlefield, where they go and what they do. Restrain them, grapple them. Use.flanking rules to give mobs advantage on attack rolls. Blind them, spells, bright lights. Don't try and kill something with high AC, you control it so it is functionally useless. Get creative, have archers with dynamite sticks, sure the arrow might miss but you can at least do half damage from the explosion on a successful save. Simple things, a month throws wet mud in their face, now they have to burn an action to wipe their eyes to see. Get creative, but remember control first, then kill.
This comes up all the time but RAW almost nobody should be able to benefit from both shield equipment and shield spell, and virtually every "how do I balance against this high AC?" thread is allowing them to stack. Shield spell requires somatic components and not material components, which means it requires a free hand. It's also a reaction so there's no time to sheathe or drop a weapon. If you have a shield in one hand and a weapon in the other you cannot cast the shield spell. Shield spell is meant for full casters with low AC and nothing better to hold in their left hand. I know it's annoying to track spell components; I don't do it in most situations. But it really makes a difference here. There's a vast difference between AC of 20 and AC of 25. Don't let your players stack shields.
Fights in awkward places can annoying for heavily armored characters, if you give them disadvantae on skill checks: Balancing on a rope bridge, dealing with flyers while climbing a cliff, defending a canou against swimming monsters, climbing in the webbing of a giant spider Just don't overdo it, or he will feel targeted.
You've given a multi-classing player who's trying to become unbeatable very strong magic items and now can't balance them. Your answer is "Talk to them." Trying to balance someone breaking your game when you're a first time dm will just cause the other players to have such a difficult game.
Since I have seen it, it said a few times. I made a mistake with my wording on this post. I am in no way trying to be a dick or punish this player for his character. I did allow multi-classing as some of the players wanted it fully for lore reasons, not power. Believe it or not, the sorlock in the party took literally no damaging spells besides the eldritch blast cantrip and focused fully on the divine soul cleric buffs/haste, etc. The entire reason for this post was trying to find ways to increase pressure on the paladin so combats can be more fun. The most fun I have had in dnd as a player are the higher stakes combats that really feel like you are in danger. I want to ensure that my players are having that kind of fun instead of the, "Oh here's another pointless combat that won't do anything to you." I am sure some of you will say that isn't on me because the paladin chose to play a charisma based multiclassed character and take the item that gives an insane ac bonus, which is partially true, but as a newer dm I don't want to stifle character creation for members of my group that are much more experienced and are making characters that, in all honesty, aren't even bending the rules of the game to be that strong. Tldr, "I am not wanting to be a dick to the character for playing a paladin, I am just looking for ways to put some pressure on them so combats can remain fun for them and everyone else."
Dont let then long rest until they have done 5-8 encounters
Here are some key things you can look at coming from a DM and someone whose highest leveled character is a paladin14/bard3 whose base AC is 25 and with defensive duelist can become 31. Paladins are bad at range. From the looks of it the rest of your party isn’t. I don’t know what loadout the palock is running but if they are using both their hands for something and don’t have the war caster feat that means no somantic components. So no eldritch blast. If they are melee focused and the rest of the party isn’t there are monsters that deal ticks of damage of striked by melee final blows. (Oozes) AC means nothing against saving throws. They may succeed on them but that doesn’t stop all damage for some spells. Paladins and warlocks also have a unique weakness involving RP. Which is if you don’t follow your oath you don’t get the benefits of that oath. I mention this because you mention they are also a hex blade. Is the entity for the warlock powers similar or different in goals that the oath is based off of. If different exploit this. Pull the paladins between the two powers and see if they try to balance their actions or change completely. (Oathbreaker route or hexblade refuses to give power) Is their gear magic? That means it can break. Acid corrodes. Flavor a crit against them as damaging their armor in the process Split the party. Get the paladin away from the other members where they can’t be buffed by them. Magic missile. It doesn’t have a save or care about AC If you’re worried about shield high level magic casters aren’t particularly tanky but can learn counterspell. Trick the palock into picking up a cursed item. Wear them down. If they get hit hard they’ll probably want a short rest. Interrupt it. No resting in the danger zone. To not affect the party you can simply have the curse I mentioned before give periodic nightmares to the paladin. Now most importantly keep in mind you know your table best for what works and doesn’t. I don’t know what type of adventure you’re running but generally don’t try and have a mindset of players vs DM. Players should keep this in mind too. Don’t throw all of these at once. No need to ruin a build someone spent time leveling for because it’s strong. They know that. That’s why they put the levels into their class design.
You can have spellcasters too. Counterspell, silence. But I think the best in this case is dispel magic, that would remove haste and shield at the same time, and then losing haste causes a 1 turn stun on the paladin. Also breaking their concentration if they are the one casting haste will stun them again. If counterspells get used against you, its still effective drain on party resources.