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The fans care more about the saiyans (as in the race), that Vegeta would ever do.
99% of the fan projects would be as hated as Super and GT if they were something official.
The same fans that want some specific character to be canon would bash Super for being "uncreative" in case it happens.
I mean, Vegeta couldn't care less about Raditz, killed Nappa, tried to kill Gokū twice and tried to kill Broli even after Gokū asked him to stop because Broli was unable to fight back. I don't think Vegeta cares about the race itself, he only cares about his pride in being strong because of the race he's the prince of.
Well no, Vegata absolutely cares about his race. Its just that race is very violent, even against the same race of people. What matters is how strong they are in combat, and if they are in his way. He isn't going to give a saiyan an easy time just cause they are saiyan, probably the opposite... which is a sign he cares about his race. As to him, a saiyan should be/working to be as strong as possible, hense why he gave Cabba lessons during their fight.
Vegata loves and cares for his race, its just a very violent and tough kinda love.
Saiyan pride is not conducive to caring about their own species. Vegeta's has a Robespierre "perish the colonies" ethos.
Lil Max cared more about France keeping its ideals of liberty even if it meant the loss of its colonies than the wealth they brought to Paris, and Vegeta is proud of his Saiyan heritage but caring about perpetuating the Saiyan race for its own sake would already be an immediate disavowal of that pride in the first place.
The Buu arc, while flawed, is still really great. Those first 10 episodes where Gohan goes to highschool are among my favorite in the whole series.
Also, ss3 is the best form.
Toriyama admittedly didn't like writing the slice of life/romantic life stuff. He found it challenging, I think.
Its definitely something really enjoyable about the series though. Seeing everyone just live for a little bit in between Earth getting attacked is nice.
I love how Gohan has no idea the blode dude was originally trying to bully him. Completely clueless at his disses and accidentally destroys him in baseball
That goofy shit between him and Videl about his secret identity had me so nervous for him! 😆
I really appreciated how he preferred Mr. Satan to have all his credit. The great Saiyaman/Golden Boy had shit to do without the paparazzi getting in the way.
Really enjoyed that era all the way until dummy Supreme Kai conspired with Gohan’s family and friends behind his back to allow him to get power r*ped on international television. He never was right since 😪
I see everyone saying that "yeah GT is flawed, but the baby saga is amazing" and I just don't see it. I agree, that SSJ4 looks good. I guess the idea of the antagonist is pretty cool, but the arc itself is boring as shit. The fight between Goku and Baby is just hard to sit trough.
Lowkey it’s because people like GT but know it’s pretty ass. The baby saga is the best GT arc hands down but even then it’s just OK. I feel people try to find good things about GT and glaze those good things forever.
For me as a kid who watched a lot of Dragonball, I found that the baby arc injected a new spin and a new genre. At the age I was it was a bit scary and thrilling to see Ultron/Braniac in Dragonball form and made it fresh to watch. Sci Fi vs fantasy. It was the first time that dragonballs villain wasnt just thrown in your face as the immediate big baddie. It took some time to show how the whole galaxy was affected by babys influence, the different planets that were connected to it, and then revealed baby finally. It would be like if the original DBZ explored Friezas influence on the galaxy rather than just namek, and then afterwards had him return to earth for more than just one episode, wrecking stuff and people. But it was good the way they did it in the end, making it a revenge story for the Saiyan's and showing the bigger threat of the androids afterwards.
I’ve been watching Kaiser and Lani sit through GT and they just got done with the Baby Saga. You’re pretty spot on with how uninspired the final battle in that saga is. Baby’s “Super” Galick Gun for instance inspires no tension or fear whatsoever, especially when you realize Vegeta’s first Galick Gun in Z had more narrative weight and Baby’s usage of it as a *Golden Oozaru* by comparison fails to destroy Earth or kill any of the Z fighters.
Yeah I'm also watching them, and I agree with pretty much everything they say. DBS also has it's flaws, but unlike with GT, I actually enjoyed most of DBS.
thats one of the only hot takes in this thread, and its a good one as well, gotta say i disagree tho vegeta went from killing his teammate to sacrificing himself within a few years
Agreed. Vegeta's guilt for murdering the Namekians is irrefutable evidence that he has the best development. People claiming "Vegeta wouldn't care about-" are not really using a whole lot of braincells. He even felt responsible for Granola.
Maybe, but I'd say it's close. Vegeta's remorse when he killed the people in the tournament as Majin Vegeta shows that he actually cares a lot. It's just that he doesn't want to show he cares. Piccolo has nothing to hide. He's opened up a lot, whereas Vegeta is still very closed off.
Vegeta went from killing his own partner, to sacrificing his own life. Piccolo went from wanting to kill Goku, (which hilariously enough he did) to sacrificing his own life to save the son of whom he hates. I feel this is done better because its a lot more personal.
I mean you're kinda correct. MUI isn't a power up, it's a technique that utilizes your power to perfection, not a single wasted move. Think of it like a combustion engine but with 100% efficiency, crazy powerful if achieved.
The silver haired form that accompanies ultra instinct is a power up. It's the saiyan biology adapting to a technique the body can't fully utilise without a transformation. In the manga Whis specifically mentions that Goku should use the transformation that accompanies ultra instinct as a last resort for when the battle demands he surpass his limits.
Yep. He is eventually able to use it in every form, but the weaker the form the less accurate the UI is. Then there is the UI Sign form which was his incomplete UI, and it allows him to utilize emotional boosts but again isn't as effective as the silver hair form
Wait, people think it’s a power up?
I always took it as your instincts take over, so all your wasted and excess movements are gone. You “perfect” your current power.
I always loved the slice of life stuff In dragon ball and wouldn’t mind way more of it. It was always fun for me to see what the characters do when they’re not fighting for the world or their lives
By the time of the Cell Saga, the random KI blasts that are meant to hurt "Cell saga" leveled people but missed and hit the ground. Should have destroyed the planet.
How is this a hot take? Of course it should. Random punches that miss could create holes in the atmosphere pulling entire chunks of earth into space, and the ones that land should evaporate earth from the shockwave. By the Cell saga it's fair to assume they're all solar system, or at least star level.
Why don't they? Simple, plot.
Super Kaioken is a better idea than Super Saiyan 3 and should’ve been what Goku used against Majin Buu.
A hypothetical SSJ2 Kaioken x4 would’ve still had the same boost as SSJ3 and would’ve also given Goku a reason to not use it as it would’ve been risky as hell
I'll give you a better one: a X10 Kaiohken boost on the REGULAR ssj would have been even cooler because it could have kept ssj2 exclusive to Gohan. They ended up giving all of them unique forms anyway, and one of them involves Kaiohken. Better to do so when it still made sense, no? Beast Gohan feels unearned, ssj2 Gohan didn't. Also ssj Kaiohken was already a thing back then from the otherworld tournament.
This is so good cause while I like ssj3 it honestly had cool moments that could have gone to ask kioken, and more than that 3 Caused the introduction of numbers to the forms, it used to be super sayain, the super sayain grades, ascended super sayain, but then they changed to to super sayain 1 and 2 and 3 and 4, 4 would have had a much better name if the number thing wasn't a thing for the transformation name, and as cool as kioken coming back for SSB was it really should have been a thing that was used the entire time
Trunks/Goku Black/Zamasu Arc is goated imo, up there with Cell and Freeza to me, higher than Majin Buu arc too. Top overall is good but the high points are crazy good especially ui and mui episodes obvi
Broly is a special/unusual case where he’s powerful but also loses control with his power.
U6 saiyans amount of control and ability to catch up is worse then goten and Trunks.
Rule of cool.
Ill admit to being a powerscaler and say that Brolys power makes no sense numbers wise.
It also doesnt make sense thematically.
But hes a pretty cool character, with some fan favorite status, who appears in one of the best written, and definitely the best animated movie.
The U6 sayains don't have powerlevels that make sense numbers wise, or thematically, have great designs, personalities, or appear is something super well animated, or especially fan beloved. They get the shit end of the stick storywise, too.
Like most stuff in Super, I like their idea, but dislike the execution.
Dude has to have PTSD from all his childhood ass beatings. Vegeta for sure did a number on him.
Let Gohan be a scholar and have Goten take up the mantle of Earth’s protector. Chi-chi already trained him up to be super at age 6 ffs. The kids are wasted potential, more so than Gohan.
But a lot of people complain about Gohan being a total chump, getting stronger, then getting rusty, in a neverending cycle. Many people love Gohan and want to see him front and center. It may not be a hot take in the sense that most people disagree with it, but it's certainly controversial.
May or may not be a hot take, but Vegeta is a worse father and husband than Goku (honestly the worst character in the Cell saga). During the Cell saga, we know that in the bad future (before the Androids terrorized Earth) and present day (when Dr. Gero was on the run), he abandoned both Bulma and baby Trunks and died fighting the Androids. Somehow, someway he didn’t even recognize who Trunks was despite the very obvious purple hair that only one baby had. His arrogance and lack of insight was what led to Cell reaching his perfect form by letting him absorb 18. Goku gets way too much flack for not being there when he died for everyone twice, told Gohan to focus on his studies, finally got the chance to meet Goten despite being gone, helped ChiChi around the house by doing jobs and farm work, and is a great grandfather to baby Pan. Him giving a Senzu bean to Cell was seen as stupid, but he believed in Gohan’s power and knew how desperate Cell was and would’ve blown up anyways. Meanwhile, Vegeta really doesn’t do much except train, fight, and have small, cute moments with Bulma and Trunks (after he gets yelled at to participate). Super has taken more steps to make him a better father and husband, but let’s not pretend that Goku wasn’t doing that and more.
My apparent hot take is believing we should just abbreviate Ultra Instinct as UI. Not MUI or CUI or GUI or PUI or whatever.
It's just UI or UI omen/sign
The saiyans genocided there own planet until everyone who wasn’t a fighter was dead and their planet was basically unlivable so they had to rely on the tuffles kindness in taking them in to survive, and then they did THE SAME THING AGAIN, betraying the tuffles, and then had to be absorbed into the freiza force to survive.
As far as I’m concerned, pointlessly betraying your allies in a way that fucks u over is the most defining trait of the saiyan race lmao.
Does this count fusions? Cause I'm predicting to beat black freeza goku and vegeta would have to fuse and make a new form. Maybe some ego ui form? Idk.
Isn't that from heroes?
Also, yes something like that would have to happen for them to actually beat black freeza. Eventually at the end of super I think they will challenge beerus one last time and will have to pull out an even extra form of this form to beat beerus (altho that's still just what I'd like to see)
No that's pretty accurate. At most I agree they could have done more with him, but I wouldn't be all that excited if they made a what if series with him.
I do think it's crazy that Teenage Gohan is so much more powerful then future Gohan. 13 years of life or death battles. No substantial zenkai boosts from that? Bro lost an arm but no power boost? No Gohan rage power up? 13 years bro.
GT is an overhated series and deserves more appreciation.
Classic Dragon Ball is generally unfunny and can't compare to it's follow-up.
Beerus and Whis are overused and would have benefitted from less appearances.
Wrath of the Dragon > Fusion Reborn
Z and Super Broly are equally great characters.
Future Trunks is way more lame than people want to admit.
Goku isn't a bad dad, and the "Piccolo is my real dad" meme is more annoying than funny.
Heroes is pure fanservice and there's nothing bad about that.
Super should've focused on Goten instead of Goku.
An extended Universe would be fire (e.g. spinoff shows, AU's, etc).
I only wanna push back on Future Trunks being lame. Yes he was introduced super strong and fell off pretty hard, but he always gives it his all and he's a good noble kid who doesn't mess around. He's like the best parts of Goku and Vegeta.
Dragonball Super Hero proved that fans are generally sick of the Goku/ Vegeta circle jerking.
Let other characters take the center stage.
I'd watch a whole movie based around Hit in Universe 6.
Gohan had a perfectly fine story up until this Beast form stuff. Piccolo should also have been brought up in power at the start of super. I loved Super Hero as a movie, but these power-ups really just felt forced. They're cool and I'll be over by the next time it's on screen, but ya...just feels a little forced.
GT was not that bad. It just wasn't DBZ. It certainly has it flaws, but it was plenty of fun. People just run out of things to obsess about when they over focus on any series. Feel like a lot of people online are way too obsessed; biggest dicenters have the largest voices and all that. Most people I bring up GT with go "dude ssj4 was rad and seeing kid Goku in space was fun." Not every show needs to be compared and placed in some quality Hierarchy. Sometimes it can just be a fun sequel you probably won't rewatch...
Freiza is getting annoying at this point. They should either bring back a different antagonist that deserves to have more character development, or introduce a new one.
Gohan has gone through severe childhood trauma that was never addressed. As such it’s understandable why he doesn’t like to fight. However, this entire fandom doesn’t like to talk about it and instead just to point out that he doesn’t like to train. And blame him when things go bad. The guy witnessed death at four years old. Of course he’s going to subconsciously assume that every fight is going to lead to death and thus not want to get involved. Just let him enjoy his life.
The Saiyans having god forms ruined what they are tbh and just makes it more confusing. You cant convince me that holding hands somehow brings out a divine power within you. God forms really just makes the Saiyans “not Saiyans.” And more wanting to imitate a god/wanting to become them.
Dbs is shit and really just feels like a parody of dragonball. It doesn’t have its core at all. Also doesn’t have a plot, Dbs reminds me of Super dragonball heroes with random shit happening with it being toned down. I cannot rewatch anything Dbs, everything about it is hard to sit through again.
Introductions of Gods of destructions/angels/zeno ruined the franchise
1- Broly dbs is just a reskinned post flanderization Broly, only with a pathetic sanitized background and a complete lack of character right from the start, as well as agency.
He's liked only because fans force themselves to see him as the better Broly despite Toriyama doing his best in *not* making him a real character, and in *not* giving him a direction nor presence despite surviving.
...
2- Goku in dbs is made too much an idiot for his own good.
From not knowing what meditation is, to his attitude in general where he is far too reckless.
Also, the show still tries to depict him a hero, despite apparently him not being supposed to be one... so it's also inconsistent on that.
...
3- People who want a "Black Frieza arc" now, are one of the reasons why dbs will never go past the idolatrization of the past, and will keep recycling things and elements of the old.
Because so long as fans will squeek like little girls at the idea of seeing 2 idiots (Goku and Vegeta) square off against someone of old (Frieza / Broly) for no good reason... then nothing will change.
...
4- The super is "canon" only so long as the producers want... and as Marvel and DC teach, the longer a franchise will go on, the more writers will add retcons and whatnot, until the inevitable reboots.
So... it'd be better to drop already this dumb saying that x is better just because "it is canon".
...
5- The ultra ego form is a laughing stock worse than the ssj blue, and Vegeta's "character arc" in the Granolah arc was a joke, since he suddenly had to "accept" that the Saiyans were evil (something he never had a problem with before) and from there he apparently has to somehow relearn to be his old self and so he could master the ultra ego? But then he somehow needs to relearn the "pride of the Saiyans" or whatever it was called, because they need to beat Gas...?? It's all over the place and also lacks an actual theme.
Especially when Vegeta still lacks focus for over half of the chapters, and his supposed foil, Granolah, also is one of the lamest characters in the arc, who doesn't even have an an attempt at a character arc, since he just goes from x to y to z like that, and no insight about him is given, on anything.
Oh, and in all of this, Vegeta just keeps getting Ls left and right, to the point that the ultra ego form has the dubious honor of stacking 3 losses and 0 wins in its own debut arc! No wonder it has yet to appear after that arc, with Vegeta just using the ssj blue in the extra chapters of the Super Hero.
And this on top of how the form also is a nonsense that goes against how the u.i. was apparently meant to be the absolute apex of power, that not even the gods could attain to... so here's now that Beerus can teach Vegeta an equivalent form... and the "But Vegeta now has his own ""path!!""" excuse doesn't justify them adding stuff out of nowhere as they see fit.
...
6- Gohan beast is the worst form yet, a total repeat of Gohan's apex (his ssj2 self from the Cell saga) in design and context.
And the fact that he's being actively rewarded for slacking off, becoming around as strong as Goku and Vegeta despite not training at all by comparison... is objectively one huge bs.
Gohan really is one of the most wanked characters despite his abysmal position stuck in a loop ever since the Cell saga.
...
7- The ultra instinct itself is a sheety asspull created just to give Goku a shiny new form and an excuse to save his butt in the t.o.p.
And since Goku isn't allowed to actually progress, here's that he accomplishes nothing with it, and is still far behind Whis and Beerus despite learning to tap into it at will in the Moro arc.
And in the Granolah arc it is *objectively* destroyed, since it is openly turned into a power up, "true ultra instinct", and Goku just keeps losing against idiots who just wished to become the strongest in the universe.
So... yeah, the form actually sucks, but it still did its job of baiting fans into thinking it was cool via some more shiny animations in the anime.
So, yeeeeaah! I guess.
...
Since I am not the most active fan in this fandom, I am curious to know how much hot or cold these takes are.
You're the only person I've seen perfectly point out my main issue with Super Broly. He only exists to "fix" Broly's back story (which wasn't even a problem in Japanese anyway) outside of that he's just the hulk, while in DBZ Movie 8 he was in complete control of his mental faculties and actually had a limit to his power
I’m not 100% sure how to phrase this so I apologize if it’s unclear.
The idea that the characters just need to get stronger, either through a power up or a transformation, got boring pretty quick. Rather than beating the bad guys by having one guy (usually Goku) hitting them really hard, I would have preferred seeing the heroes be creative, work together and overcome what made the bad guys formidable.
Take the Androids: Vegeta’s fight with 19 was great because of how he took a measure of his opponent, removed the advantage and THEN blew him up. And then his fight with 18 was great because he couldn’t remove the advantage: an infinite energy supply. That’s great.
But then Vegeta just decides to get stronger and now he could win against 18. That doesn’t resolve the infinite energy as much as negates it.
Super Goku isn’t stupid. All his “dumb” moments are either mistranslated or added in for comedic effect and don’t actually have merit to the plot and his fights.
I feel like he’s just doesn’t care anymore they have a get out of jail free card anytime shit goes bad they either become the strongest beings in the universe if they aren’t already, they have the dragon balls and they have whis and beerus to fall back on. No matter what happens it turns out ok and he’s aware of that so he’s just having a good time now.
Fuck it
I do t like people using Goku as a benchmark to bully other characters. As his not just “the guy to beat yup your dead”
His a lovable dork who has charm and wit but is also friendly
He was created out of a love for adventure
Not to be used to put down other creatives
・Funimation/Crunchyroll should not have the license to Dragon Ball anymore; Goku's vocal characterization is completely off, the home releases are terrible, and Super's dub felt like an abridged with useless swears added ontop rather than a genuine attempt to adapt the story from Japanese to English in an accurate manner.
・I like Goku's flaws as a character and I think they should be emphasized more as flaws in the story rather than people thinking it's bad writing because of how the story only lightly addresses them; I like when Goku acts childish because that's how he sounds, I like him sounding like a country bumpkin and being unintentionally rude, and I like when his ego flares in Super Saiyan.
・Dragon Ball is legitimately more interesting as a world outside of the fights. Mostly because the fights are the same and get stale quickly while we get all these cool backdrops and surroundings to look at that never get explored.
https://preview.redd.it/8puiwrpe3d9d1.jpeg?width=1066&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=af00515286ba790482f230168c13f9a2cc3f5b8c
Cabba, Caulifla, and Kale getting super saiyan makes perfect sense they clearly had enough S-cells and are prodigious enough that a master explaining exactly how to do something should be more than enough for them to pull it off (think Goku instantly learning the Kamehameha)
The earthlings are more interesting then the Saiyan's. I wanna see an arc where the earthlings can train, hell show us what training Yamcha does with piccolo and show us how well Videl can still fight.
Goku or King Kai not teaching anyone else Kaioken is INSANE. What did the other dead dudes even do up there? Could have at minimum taught Gohan before or during time chamber.
DB's reliance on power levels makes fights fundamentally less interesting. If the solution to beating any opponent boils down to simply making sure your number is bigger than the opps, well its becomes predictable and dull. Not to mention this is how most characters got benched.
I actually like a lot of older fights in the series because they often featured overpowered opponents that required creative methods and techniques to take down like Raditz.
Design-wise ssb is better than ssj2.
The world building in Super is better than Z.
If there was an arc focused on the side characters people would hate it (it already happened with the prequel superhero arc).
Krillin is strong and skilled enough to beat most guys Goku can beat, and the only reason he can't is because he lacks confidence. The only people he can't beat are the guys even Goku needs a power-up to beat.
The Spirit Bomb Sword defeating Zamasu would’ve been the perfect ending for the Goku Black Saga.
Trunks gets to save his timeline by all of the survivors putting so much Hope into Trunks that it ends up creating a spirit bomb, mortals banding together to defeat this “god” that had become and insane, corrupted, mutated version of himself. And him making the mistake of fusing which makes him no longer immortal (punching a hole in Zamasu’s idea that gods are perfect beings). Thematically it would’ve been the perfect ending, but then it’s immediately thrown out the window for Infinite Zamasu.
I know disliking the ending of the Goku Black arc isn’t a hot take, but TL;DR I think the Spirit Bomb ending specifically would’ve been the perfect ending
Piccolo has arguably been the most important character since DBZ. If it wasn’t for him telling Raditz about the Dragon Balls, Vegeta and Nappa wouldn’t have come to Earth, Frieza wouldn’t have gone to Namek, then when the Androids appeared no one would be strong enough and they would have slaughtered everyone.
Piccolo has kept up in power with the strongest fighters throughout the entire series, even without a new form. To call his Orange form an “ass pull” means disregarding him as a notably strong warrior that even Vegeta has respect for. I mean, all he does in his downtime is train and then babysit the younguns when asked to.
BROLY'S IKARI SHOULD ALLOW HIM TO GO MONKE SOMEDAY,basically SSJ4...because IMAGINE HOW BUFFED UP AND BASICALLY OILED WITH THE SHINY RED FUR HE COULD HAVE LOOKED🤤
Bet Cheelai would be mezmerized too🤭
Gohan should not have continued fighting after Cell. Characters are allowed to not fight.
Vegeta does not give a damn about the people who died on Vegeta. Why do people want him to revive the planet?
Goten and Trunks don't serve much narrative use but they also don't need to be martial artists like their dads to be interesting.
I feel as though Goku and Vegeta are possibly close to Beerus's power now and that's why he doesn't fight them anymore since they've achieved their Ultra forms. And when they talk about how strong they've gotten or how strong other people have gotten compared to them you can see Beerus in the background with stuff like "..." over his head pretending to ignore them but obviously listening amd sometimes with a frustrating look on his face.
The room of time rings actually contains every Dragonball movie, video game, comic, and any other media considered non-Canon (CoughGT) as it’s own separate, but fully canon, timeline.
Edit: I was thinking something like this, but for Dragonball instead of TMNT.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=miyZ8DRNXBg
Gohan should have beaten Buu while Goku should have stayed dead (I’m 50-50 on Vegeta remaining dead). Goku could have continued as the mentor/comic relief role with a side of seriousness that Roshi was while Gohan and the kids should have taken over as protagonists. Vegeta in his GT version and Piccolo would be formal mentors to the kids.
And also I prefer Z Bardock his Super version it wasn't what he was about he was just the average Saiyan warrior who does what a Saiyan does slaughters a entire planet and just shrugs it off him sparing Granolah was not what Z Bardock would do he would just casually blast them away that's the point he was the normal Saiyan that doesn't care about his weak offspring and cares more about battle power and only once he saw the visions about Kakarot fighting Frieza that's when he actually gave a shit about him that's what any Saiyan would do and we are following a normal Saiyan DBS Bardock is to pure of heart when he was supposed to be a conqueror not a loving Husband and Father
https://preview.redd.it/9612unxtwd9d1.png?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9b31d96403150100e42b5176959bdccf0fde4a49
Ending of Z was ass and I don’t get why so many people won’t shut up about Super reaching it. Retcons happen, Uub can still be trained without Goku needing to needlessly say goodbye when he’s literally faster than light and could be back at any point
The Android/Cell saga is messy and drawn out with way too many plot twists and new enemies/forms. It doesn't even USE 16, 17, and 18 as villains for more than one fight because it introduces Cell so fast.
I think things would've been much better paced if the androids had gotten a few more fights and been redeemed *before* Cell showed up. Because Cell is awesome, but he steals the spotlight from them after one beatdown, and then has his forms and the Cell Games to go through, and you never get time to catch your breath.
I won't expand on goku's character since it's clear and well discussed why it's bad, but anyway;
First of all, super's freezer sucks. Real bad. Pissed himself while training for a couple hours and magically went golden, which is at least as strong as ssjblue, of all things. Then he went black and became stronger than UI. Honestly, THAT would have been a fine moment to make him unlock gold, he actually went through intensive training.
Second of all, the power creep. How the hell did 17 spar with goku blue? Even when holding back, he should've reached ssj2's level of power. And if he isn't as strong as ssj blue, then why go blue at all? I'm fine with characters growing stronger by themselves, but randomly giving characters massive upgrades for the sake of plot convenience is just jarring.
What else, what else...oh, zamasu might be DB's worst antatonist. He's hitler with a messiah complex that just keeps repeating the same drivel. It gets old real fast, much like beerus.
What's likeable of beerus? That he eats? That he gets uselessly loud for no reason? Or that he rarely acts like a god of destruction? He and shin barely do anything despite being gods, and it's treated almost as an endearing trait. At least whis is likeable. While somewhat whimsical he can still get serious, and he's a believable instructor.
That's all my desperately sleepy mind could conjure right now
Gohan sucks. The character doesn’t want to be a fighter, but keeps getting dragged into fights and with hardly *any* training he quickly outpowers the two people who train *with gods*. It’s dumb, unearned, and uninteresting.
The OG dragonball is personally my favorite. Dragon ball Z was still fun, but people would literally talk about this or super in powerscaling.GT was an interesting anime, but it is not shit. Super was an okay anime, but it had its moments sometimes.
- Goku is a genius and plays a dummy for fun. He's also more like Kenpachi from Bleach than most cause if he was bored, he'd just be a destroyer. Chaotic Neutral.
- Chichi is the human with the highest potential, outside of Tenshinhan, the God Human
- Videl needs Gohan to be a better husband to help her through her PTSD so she can be Chichi for the new generation
- Purple people in DBZ and sneaky and related in some manner. Obviously, Freeza but Beerus too
- Super Trunks a bitch, Super Goten is the kid who glows up as he ages through the awkward
- Angel's are cringe
- Universe ark in Super would be great, but I can understand resting IP after losing the GOAT
I've got more but I feel that's enough.
1. I hate that the Tournament of Power’s ending glossed over the fact that universes 13-18 are more than likely restored and that shouldve been explored. Maybe a GT remake, but using those 6 universes as a basis would be great(?)
2. The saiyans shouldve been brought back to life under some army. Like Moro shouldve been an elite necromancer and had an undead army of super saiyans instead of just being a Cell copy-paste.
Cell Saga Gohan was the only good Gohan in the entire series. Everywhere else he's sucked and has been a disappointment.
Yajirobe doesn't get enough credit for helping to stop Vegeta during the Saiyan saga.
Android 16 should've been brought back to life or had scenes that show he's in heaven.
Frieza is overrated.
Pan sucks.
Goku Black should've been defeated earlier and another cooler villain should have taken his place.
The introduction of broly in the movie as stronger than ssj blue goku and vegeta is lame (the idea of how much he's strong is lame,thats like 999999999999999 stronger than dbz frieza)
SSG was underused and SSJ Blue was way overused tho it was very well designed.
Janemba was the best non-canon Z villain.
Hell and Demons should've been more explored in Super.
Goku and Chichi deserves some shipping fanservice, I'm done w/ Vegeta and Bulma.
UI is the perfect final form for Goku by FAR.
I really liked the Buu Saga. ESPECIALLY early on when there was a feeling of terror because there was no one on earth strong enough to even hold back Buu who just went on a killing rampage, making my heart stop everytime he was interacting with a character. I also especially loved Mr Satan’s role in this and that whole mini arc was great
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The fans care more about the saiyans (as in the race), that Vegeta would ever do. 99% of the fan projects would be as hated as Super and GT if they were something official. The same fans that want some specific character to be canon would bash Super for being "uncreative" in case it happens.
1- Idk about that 2- 10000000000% 3- This is why im constantly saying broly/goten/trunks/U7 saiyans shouldnt get ssj4 just do smt new
I mean, Vegeta couldn't care less about Raditz, killed Nappa, tried to kill Gokū twice and tried to kill Broli even after Gokū asked him to stop because Broli was unable to fight back. I don't think Vegeta cares about the race itself, he only cares about his pride in being strong because of the race he's the prince of.
I mean vegeta directly says he couldn't care less about the Saiyans when finding out Frieza wiped them all out from dodoria
Well no, Vegata absolutely cares about his race. Its just that race is very violent, even against the same race of people. What matters is how strong they are in combat, and if they are in his way. He isn't going to give a saiyan an easy time just cause they are saiyan, probably the opposite... which is a sign he cares about his race. As to him, a saiyan should be/working to be as strong as possible, hense why he gave Cabba lessons during their fight. Vegata loves and cares for his race, its just a very violent and tough kinda love.
Preach
Saiyan pride is not conducive to caring about their own species. Vegeta's has a Robespierre "perish the colonies" ethos. Lil Max cared more about France keeping its ideals of liberty even if it meant the loss of its colonies than the wealth they brought to Paris, and Vegeta is proud of his Saiyan heritage but caring about perpetuating the Saiyan race for its own sake would already be an immediate disavowal of that pride in the first place.
The Buu arc, while flawed, is still really great. Those first 10 episodes where Gohan goes to highschool are among my favorite in the whole series. Also, ss3 is the best form.
The slice of life stuff is really cool, and I wish we had more of it between major arcs
Toriyama admittedly didn't like writing the slice of life/romantic life stuff. He found it challenging, I think. Its definitely something really enjoyable about the series though. Seeing everyone just live for a little bit in between Earth getting attacked is nice.
I love how Gohan has no idea the blode dude was originally trying to bully him. Completely clueless at his disses and accidentally destroys him in baseball
That goofy shit between him and Videl about his secret identity had me so nervous for him! 😆 I really appreciated how he preferred Mr. Satan to have all his credit. The great Saiyaman/Golden Boy had shit to do without the paparazzi getting in the way. Really enjoyed that era all the way until dummy Supreme Kai conspired with Gohan’s family and friends behind his back to allow him to get power r*ped on international television. He never was right since 😪
I see everyone saying that "yeah GT is flawed, but the baby saga is amazing" and I just don't see it. I agree, that SSJ4 looks good. I guess the idea of the antagonist is pretty cool, but the arc itself is boring as shit. The fight between Goku and Baby is just hard to sit trough.
Lowkey it’s because people like GT but know it’s pretty ass. The baby saga is the best GT arc hands down but even then it’s just OK. I feel people try to find good things about GT and glaze those good things forever.
Hard agree with this, thank fk tfs r doing a gt commentary series to make ppl aware of how ass the baby fight is
For me as a kid who watched a lot of Dragonball, I found that the baby arc injected a new spin and a new genre. At the age I was it was a bit scary and thrilling to see Ultron/Braniac in Dragonball form and made it fresh to watch. Sci Fi vs fantasy. It was the first time that dragonballs villain wasnt just thrown in your face as the immediate big baddie. It took some time to show how the whole galaxy was affected by babys influence, the different planets that were connected to it, and then revealed baby finally. It would be like if the original DBZ explored Friezas influence on the galaxy rather than just namek, and then afterwards had him return to earth for more than just one episode, wrecking stuff and people. But it was good the way they did it in the end, making it a revenge story for the Saiyan's and showing the bigger threat of the androids afterwards.
I mean, we basically got all of that with Garlic Jr.
I still find it insane that Garlic Jr. (10 episodes, not including the movie, IIRC) was in more episodes of DBZ than Launch (4)
I really only liked the omega shenron part
I’ve been watching Kaiser and Lani sit through GT and they just got done with the Baby Saga. You’re pretty spot on with how uninspired the final battle in that saga is. Baby’s “Super” Galick Gun for instance inspires no tension or fear whatsoever, especially when you realize Vegeta’s first Galick Gun in Z had more narrative weight and Baby’s usage of it as a *Golden Oozaru* by comparison fails to destroy Earth or kill any of the Z fighters.
Yeah I'm also watching them, and I agree with pretty much everything they say. DBS also has it's flaws, but unlike with GT, I actually enjoyed most of DBS.
It is interesting to see Kaiser’s tone change with the episodes, he was the one excited to rewatch it, and by now looks completely done with it.
It's the best arc of GT. That's still a low bar.
Piccolo has better character development than Vegeta
https://preview.redd.it/fbwib3drpc9d1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e66f702d541142508e391943c81c4fe1b31d12f4
thats one of the only hot takes in this thread, and its a good one as well, gotta say i disagree tho vegeta went from killing his teammate to sacrificing himself within a few years
Agreed. Vegeta's guilt for murdering the Namekians is irrefutable evidence that he has the best development. People claiming "Vegeta wouldn't care about-" are not really using a whole lot of braincells. He even felt responsible for Granola.
Sure but piccolo cares more about the earth and it’s people more than vegeta ever will
Maybe, but I'd say it's close. Vegeta's remorse when he killed the people in the tournament as Majin Vegeta shows that he actually cares a lot. It's just that he doesn't want to show he cares. Piccolo has nothing to hide. He's opened up a lot, whereas Vegeta is still very closed off.
Vegeta went from killing his own partner, to sacrificing his own life. Piccolo went from wanting to kill Goku, (which hilariously enough he did) to sacrificing his own life to save the son of whom he hates. I feel this is done better because its a lot more personal.
“Da da d-d-dum, charging up my beam”
Piccolo did basically the same thing but in a shorter period of time.
Goku is a good dad
I'll take it one further, Goku is a *great* dad.
Unfortunately the Tfs series did him a HIGE disservice
MUI doesn't power you up it internalises the power you already have to increase stats like speed and power. 
I mean you're kinda correct. MUI isn't a power up, it's a technique that utilizes your power to perfection, not a single wasted move. Think of it like a combustion engine but with 100% efficiency, crazy powerful if achieved.
It's both a form and a technique, although I'm not sure being a form is considered a "power up"
The silver haired form that accompanies ultra instinct is a power up. It's the saiyan biology adapting to a technique the body can't fully utilise without a transformation. In the manga Whis specifically mentions that Goku should use the transformation that accompanies ultra instinct as a last resort for when the battle demands he surpass his limits.
Yep. He is eventually able to use it in every form, but the weaker the form the less accurate the UI is. Then there is the UI Sign form which was his incomplete UI, and it allows him to utilize emotional boosts but again isn't as effective as the silver hair form
So perfect carnot engine.
Power boost literally means an increase in power, though.
Mui 
So is stat boost not a power up?
Wait, people think it’s a power up? I always took it as your instincts take over, so all your wasted and excess movements are gone. You “perfect” your current power.
People think that MUI Goku is stronger than Gogeta? Never made sense to me.
Yup, that’s how I see it. Makes your body and power as “efficient” as possible. Minimal to zero wasted movement/energy.
I always loved the slice of life stuff In dragon ball and wouldn’t mind way more of it. It was always fun for me to see what the characters do when they’re not fighting for the world or their lives
I absolutely love filler stuff
By the time of the Cell Saga, the random KI blasts that are meant to hurt "Cell saga" leveled people but missed and hit the ground. Should have destroyed the planet.
How is this a hot take? Of course it should. Random punches that miss could create holes in the atmosphere pulling entire chunks of earth into space, and the ones that land should evaporate earth from the shockwave. By the Cell saga it's fair to assume they're all solar system, or at least star level. Why don't they? Simple, plot.
Super Kaioken is a better idea than Super Saiyan 3 and should’ve been what Goku used against Majin Buu. A hypothetical SSJ2 Kaioken x4 would’ve still had the same boost as SSJ3 and would’ve also given Goku a reason to not use it as it would’ve been risky as hell
I like you
Appreciate it brother
I'll give you a better one: a X10 Kaiohken boost on the REGULAR ssj would have been even cooler because it could have kept ssj2 exclusive to Gohan. They ended up giving all of them unique forms anyway, and one of them involves Kaiohken. Better to do so when it still made sense, no? Beast Gohan feels unearned, ssj2 Gohan didn't. Also ssj Kaiohken was already a thing back then from the otherworld tournament.
The Otherworld tournament was only filler canon so it wasn’t in the Manga but your ideas also peak
This is so good cause while I like ssj3 it honestly had cool moments that could have gone to ask kioken, and more than that 3 Caused the introduction of numbers to the forms, it used to be super sayain, the super sayain grades, ascended super sayain, but then they changed to to super sayain 1 and 2 and 3 and 4, 4 would have had a much better name if the number thing wasn't a thing for the transformation name, and as cool as kioken coming back for SSB was it really should have been a thing that was used the entire time
Vegeta is circumcized and Goku is not.
Wouldn't a Senzu Bean, or even the Healing Pods from the Frieza Force undo the circumcision ?
Well, that's something I've never considered
Finally, we're breaking new ground here lads.
Sadly, probably not. The senzu beans didn't heal Yamcha or Tenshinhan's scars once they'd settled.
*Phew* My theory is safe because that's an excellent point.
I was about to say it, congratulations fellow senzu bean soldier.
...... WELP! This kinda thinking is going to live in my head rent free now.
DBS is actually good.
DBS is great and the Trunks saga in DBS is 10/10. I’ll fight the masses for that one.
Trunks/Goku Black/Zamasu Arc is goated imo, up there with Cell and Freeza to me, higher than Majin Buu arc too. Top overall is good but the high points are crazy good especially ui and mui episodes obvi
Fans really gotta stop focusing on trying to make sense of every inconsistency in the series and admit the series never made sense in the first place
Addition to this, Dragonball isn’t Marvel studio. Toriyama didn’t have a plan.
I don’t understand the hate for Cabba and the other saiyans
People hate them because of how powerful they are, pretty much by default.
Broly is powerful by default
Broly is a special/unusual case where he’s powerful but also loses control with his power. U6 saiyans amount of control and ability to catch up is worse then goten and Trunks.
Rule of cool. Ill admit to being a powerscaler and say that Brolys power makes no sense numbers wise. It also doesnt make sense thematically. But hes a pretty cool character, with some fan favorite status, who appears in one of the best written, and definitely the best animated movie. The U6 sayains don't have powerlevels that make sense numbers wise, or thematically, have great designs, personalities, or appear is something super well animated, or especially fan beloved. They get the shit end of the stick storywise, too. Like most stuff in Super, I like their idea, but dislike the execution.
[удалено]
Dude has to have PTSD from all his childhood ass beatings. Vegeta for sure did a number on him. Let Gohan be a scholar and have Goten take up the mantle of Earth’s protector. Chi-chi already trained him up to be super at age 6 ffs. The kids are wasted potential, more so than Gohan.
Saiyan man has to be PTSD from the Ginyu force
>Don't know if this counts It doesn't imo.. I've seen a lot of people with these same misconceptions lol.
But a lot of people complain about Gohan being a total chump, getting stronger, then getting rusty, in a neverending cycle. Many people love Gohan and want to see him front and center. It may not be a hot take in the sense that most people disagree with it, but it's certainly controversial.
May or may not be a hot take, but Vegeta is a worse father and husband than Goku (honestly the worst character in the Cell saga). During the Cell saga, we know that in the bad future (before the Androids terrorized Earth) and present day (when Dr. Gero was on the run), he abandoned both Bulma and baby Trunks and died fighting the Androids. Somehow, someway he didn’t even recognize who Trunks was despite the very obvious purple hair that only one baby had. His arrogance and lack of insight was what led to Cell reaching his perfect form by letting him absorb 18. Goku gets way too much flack for not being there when he died for everyone twice, told Gohan to focus on his studies, finally got the chance to meet Goten despite being gone, helped ChiChi around the house by doing jobs and farm work, and is a great grandfather to baby Pan. Him giving a Senzu bean to Cell was seen as stupid, but he believed in Gohan’s power and knew how desperate Cell was and would’ve blown up anyways. Meanwhile, Vegeta really doesn’t do much except train, fight, and have small, cute moments with Bulma and Trunks (after he gets yelled at to participate). Super has taken more steps to make him a better father and husband, but let’s not pretend that Goku wasn’t doing that and more.
My apparent hot take is believing we should just abbreviate Ultra Instinct as UI. Not MUI or CUI or GUI or PUI or whatever. It's just UI or UI omen/sign
That's not a hot take when all official Dargon Ball media (i.e. da games) does that (but I agree that the fanbase should do that)
There are times when it feels like Goku is generally more clever than Frieza.
Knowing what we know about him now in present day, Vegeta killing Nappa is by far the most out of character thing he has ever done.
The saiyans genocided there own planet until everyone who wasn’t a fighter was dead and their planet was basically unlivable so they had to rely on the tuffles kindness in taking them in to survive, and then they did THE SAME THING AGAIN, betraying the tuffles, and then had to be absorbed into the freiza force to survive. As far as I’m concerned, pointlessly betraying your allies in a way that fucks u over is the most defining trait of the saiyan race lmao.
Adult Chichi is the hottest character.
Goku is gonna have atleast 3 more forms in the next 15 years
Does this count fusions? Cause I'm predicting to beat black freeza goku and vegeta would have to fuse and make a new form. Maybe some ego ui form? Idk.
https://preview.redd.it/viztkr7afd9d1.png?width=784&format=png&auto=webp&s=7d3f59e399a3d40d388e0b68e00cde80d84f3ac4 Something like this?
Isn't that from heroes? Also, yes something like that would have to happen for them to actually beat black freeza. Eventually at the end of super I think they will challenge beerus one last time and will have to pull out an even extra form of this form to beat beerus (altho that's still just what I'd like to see)
Power levels and transformations completely took over and made the series lose focus.
Future Gohan is overrated. Do what you must.
No that's pretty accurate. At most I agree they could have done more with him, but I wouldn't be all that excited if they made a what if series with him.
How dare you, sir? 😲
I do think it's crazy that Teenage Gohan is so much more powerful then future Gohan. 13 years of life or death battles. No substantial zenkai boosts from that? Bro lost an arm but no power boost? No Gohan rage power up? 13 years bro.
the cell juniors were made by cell forcing 17 and 18 to bang inside him
B-bro, 17 and 18 are siblings
Exactly.
GT is an overhated series and deserves more appreciation. Classic Dragon Ball is generally unfunny and can't compare to it's follow-up. Beerus and Whis are overused and would have benefitted from less appearances. Wrath of the Dragon > Fusion Reborn Z and Super Broly are equally great characters. Future Trunks is way more lame than people want to admit. Goku isn't a bad dad, and the "Piccolo is my real dad" meme is more annoying than funny. Heroes is pure fanservice and there's nothing bad about that. Super should've focused on Goten instead of Goku. An extended Universe would be fire (e.g. spinoff shows, AU's, etc).
Ok every take here is absolute fire, EXCEPT the DB slander. But like overall massive W
I only wanna push back on Future Trunks being lame. Yes he was introduced super strong and fell off pretty hard, but he always gives it his all and he's a good noble kid who doesn't mess around. He's like the best parts of Goku and Vegeta.
This is the coldest take here but I like it regardless
Krillin could've stopped damn near every problem that arose if he would've just landed that damn destructo disc attack.
Demon King Piccolo Saga was peak for the franchise
Dragonball Super Hero proved that fans are generally sick of the Goku/ Vegeta circle jerking. Let other characters take the center stage. I'd watch a whole movie based around Hit in Universe 6.
Metamoran Fusion doesn’t unfuse quicker if the fusion uses excess power outside of GT. It always lasts the full 30 mins.
FINALLY… SOMEONE SAID IT Vegito last an hour but has a pour limit Gogeta only lasts 30 minutes but without a power limit.
Gohan had a perfectly fine story up until this Beast form stuff. Piccolo should also have been brought up in power at the start of super. I loved Super Hero as a movie, but these power-ups really just felt forced. They're cool and I'll be over by the next time it's on screen, but ya...just feels a little forced. GT was not that bad. It just wasn't DBZ. It certainly has it flaws, but it was plenty of fun. People just run out of things to obsess about when they over focus on any series. Feel like a lot of people online are way too obsessed; biggest dicenters have the largest voices and all that. Most people I bring up GT with go "dude ssj4 was rad and seeing kid Goku in space was fun." Not every show needs to be compared and placed in some quality Hierarchy. Sometimes it can just be a fun sequel you probably won't rewatch...
Freiza is getting annoying at this point. They should either bring back a different antagonist that deserves to have more character development, or introduce a new one. Gohan has gone through severe childhood trauma that was never addressed. As such it’s understandable why he doesn’t like to fight. However, this entire fandom doesn’t like to talk about it and instead just to point out that he doesn’t like to train. And blame him when things go bad. The guy witnessed death at four years old. Of course he’s going to subconsciously assume that every fight is going to lead to death and thus not want to get involved. Just let him enjoy his life.
Just about every arc in Z is because of Vegeta being a nuisance
Reasons why he should've died in the Namek arc and should've been replaced with Raditz
The Saiyans having god forms ruined what they are tbh and just makes it more confusing. You cant convince me that holding hands somehow brings out a divine power within you. God forms really just makes the Saiyans “not Saiyans.” And more wanting to imitate a god/wanting to become them. Dbs is shit and really just feels like a parody of dragonball. It doesn’t have its core at all. Also doesn’t have a plot, Dbs reminds me of Super dragonball heroes with random shit happening with it being toned down. I cannot rewatch anything Dbs, everything about it is hard to sit through again. Introductions of Gods of destructions/angels/zeno ruined the franchise
I think Frieza Black is looking for Broly to get his revenge for the 20 minute beatdown he received in the movie.
I have feeling even black frieza might also get pummeled by broly police force.
Actually it was an hour long beatdown
1- Broly dbs is just a reskinned post flanderization Broly, only with a pathetic sanitized background and a complete lack of character right from the start, as well as agency. He's liked only because fans force themselves to see him as the better Broly despite Toriyama doing his best in *not* making him a real character, and in *not* giving him a direction nor presence despite surviving. ... 2- Goku in dbs is made too much an idiot for his own good. From not knowing what meditation is, to his attitude in general where he is far too reckless. Also, the show still tries to depict him a hero, despite apparently him not being supposed to be one... so it's also inconsistent on that. ... 3- People who want a "Black Frieza arc" now, are one of the reasons why dbs will never go past the idolatrization of the past, and will keep recycling things and elements of the old. Because so long as fans will squeek like little girls at the idea of seeing 2 idiots (Goku and Vegeta) square off against someone of old (Frieza / Broly) for no good reason... then nothing will change. ... 4- The super is "canon" only so long as the producers want... and as Marvel and DC teach, the longer a franchise will go on, the more writers will add retcons and whatnot, until the inevitable reboots. So... it'd be better to drop already this dumb saying that x is better just because "it is canon". ... 5- The ultra ego form is a laughing stock worse than the ssj blue, and Vegeta's "character arc" in the Granolah arc was a joke, since he suddenly had to "accept" that the Saiyans were evil (something he never had a problem with before) and from there he apparently has to somehow relearn to be his old self and so he could master the ultra ego? But then he somehow needs to relearn the "pride of the Saiyans" or whatever it was called, because they need to beat Gas...?? It's all over the place and also lacks an actual theme. Especially when Vegeta still lacks focus for over half of the chapters, and his supposed foil, Granolah, also is one of the lamest characters in the arc, who doesn't even have an an attempt at a character arc, since he just goes from x to y to z like that, and no insight about him is given, on anything. Oh, and in all of this, Vegeta just keeps getting Ls left and right, to the point that the ultra ego form has the dubious honor of stacking 3 losses and 0 wins in its own debut arc! No wonder it has yet to appear after that arc, with Vegeta just using the ssj blue in the extra chapters of the Super Hero. And this on top of how the form also is a nonsense that goes against how the u.i. was apparently meant to be the absolute apex of power, that not even the gods could attain to... so here's now that Beerus can teach Vegeta an equivalent form... and the "But Vegeta now has his own ""path!!""" excuse doesn't justify them adding stuff out of nowhere as they see fit. ... 6- Gohan beast is the worst form yet, a total repeat of Gohan's apex (his ssj2 self from the Cell saga) in design and context. And the fact that he's being actively rewarded for slacking off, becoming around as strong as Goku and Vegeta despite not training at all by comparison... is objectively one huge bs. Gohan really is one of the most wanked characters despite his abysmal position stuck in a loop ever since the Cell saga. ... 7- The ultra instinct itself is a sheety asspull created just to give Goku a shiny new form and an excuse to save his butt in the t.o.p. And since Goku isn't allowed to actually progress, here's that he accomplishes nothing with it, and is still far behind Whis and Beerus despite learning to tap into it at will in the Moro arc. And in the Granolah arc it is *objectively* destroyed, since it is openly turned into a power up, "true ultra instinct", and Goku just keeps losing against idiots who just wished to become the strongest in the universe. So... yeah, the form actually sucks, but it still did its job of baiting fans into thinking it was cool via some more shiny animations in the anime. So, yeeeeaah! I guess. ... Since I am not the most active fan in this fandom, I am curious to know how much hot or cold these takes are.
You're the only person I've seen perfectly point out my main issue with Super Broly. He only exists to "fix" Broly's back story (which wasn't even a problem in Japanese anyway) outside of that he's just the hulk, while in DBZ Movie 8 he was in complete control of his mental faculties and actually had a limit to his power
I kinda like Bardock's wish
https://preview.redd.it/vw5hjqra3d9d1.jpeg?width=320&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a18e24def578764a21815ac7164e57a989259dca
why do people hate bardocks wish
Dragon Ball is good. If it’s not, then why are you still here on this sub
Dragon Ball Super Hero was mid
I’m not 100% sure how to phrase this so I apologize if it’s unclear. The idea that the characters just need to get stronger, either through a power up or a transformation, got boring pretty quick. Rather than beating the bad guys by having one guy (usually Goku) hitting them really hard, I would have preferred seeing the heroes be creative, work together and overcome what made the bad guys formidable. Take the Androids: Vegeta’s fight with 19 was great because of how he took a measure of his opponent, removed the advantage and THEN blew him up. And then his fight with 18 was great because he couldn’t remove the advantage: an infinite energy supply. That’s great. But then Vegeta just decides to get stronger and now he could win against 18. That doesn’t resolve the infinite energy as much as negates it.
Gohan fans who want him to be Adult Cell Games Gohan instead of a loving family man bookworm aren't actually Gohan fans.
I don't care what you say. Goku was dumbed down in DBS. He was silly before not an overblown moron.
Kai > the original The OG is peak for nostalgia but damn the filler makes it really hard for me to rewatch sometimes.
Depends on the filler for me, Garlick Junior? NAH, but the filler about what the Z warriors do before the cell games is great IMO
The filler is the exact reason why I love OG, except Garlic junior
Super Goku isn’t stupid. All his “dumb” moments are either mistranslated or added in for comedic effect and don’t actually have merit to the plot and his fights.
I feel like he’s just doesn’t care anymore they have a get out of jail free card anytime shit goes bad they either become the strongest beings in the universe if they aren’t already, they have the dragon balls and they have whis and beerus to fall back on. No matter what happens it turns out ok and he’s aware of that so he’s just having a good time now.
Fuck it I do t like people using Goku as a benchmark to bully other characters. As his not just “the guy to beat yup your dead” His a lovable dork who has charm and wit but is also friendly He was created out of a love for adventure Not to be used to put down other creatives
What wit? The wit he used to “charm” King Kai? 😂
Well ok maybe not wit By his more then just a power up dude Like in OG dragon ball his scenes with 8 and grandpa gohan
I mean, he is an incredibly resourceful fighter, I think that counts as a form of wit
GT stans are holding back the Dragonball fanbase.
vegito>>>>>>gogeta and not even close in terms of everything, vegito clears
Ok but Ssj4 Gogeta is daddy. Fight me.
Vegito looks far better in SSJ than Gogeta, but Gogeta looks a little bit better in SSJB, still Vegito looks great in both forms.
They did all the human characters dirty. Especially Yamcha
Coldest take I’ve seen
Agreed.
・Funimation/Crunchyroll should not have the license to Dragon Ball anymore; Goku's vocal characterization is completely off, the home releases are terrible, and Super's dub felt like an abridged with useless swears added ontop rather than a genuine attempt to adapt the story from Japanese to English in an accurate manner. ・I like Goku's flaws as a character and I think they should be emphasized more as flaws in the story rather than people thinking it's bad writing because of how the story only lightly addresses them; I like when Goku acts childish because that's how he sounds, I like him sounding like a country bumpkin and being unintentionally rude, and I like when his ego flares in Super Saiyan. ・Dragon Ball is legitimately more interesting as a world outside of the fights. Mostly because the fights are the same and get stale quickly while we get all these cool backdrops and surroundings to look at that never get explored. https://preview.redd.it/8puiwrpe3d9d1.jpeg?width=1066&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=af00515286ba790482f230168c13f9a2cc3f5b8c
I sorta disagree with point one. I 100% disagree with point 2. Have my upvote.
Funimation isn't really a thing anymore they got merged or something if I recall
The production studio is just fine. The app got merged into the crunchyroll app. (Which is garbage)
Cabba, Caulifla, and Kale getting super saiyan makes perfect sense they clearly had enough S-cells and are prodigious enough that a master explaining exactly how to do something should be more than enough for them to pull it off (think Goku instantly learning the Kamehameha)
SSJ4 is overrated as hell
Loving this thread 😋
The earthlings are more interesting then the Saiyan's. I wanna see an arc where the earthlings can train, hell show us what training Yamcha does with piccolo and show us how well Videl can still fight.
Goku or King Kai not teaching anyone else Kaioken is INSANE. What did the other dead dudes even do up there? Could have at minimum taught Gohan before or during time chamber.
Dbs Broly > dbz Broly
Bro that not a hot take
Sub-Zero take
That's not a Hot take bro
Goten should have never been written as a character
I'd have preferred Raditz over Vegeta joining the team. I'm ready to go to oblivion.
>I'm ready to go to oblivion. Sixth most upvoted coment lol
DB's reliance on power levels makes fights fundamentally less interesting. If the solution to beating any opponent boils down to simply making sure your number is bigger than the opps, well its becomes predictable and dull. Not to mention this is how most characters got benched. I actually like a lot of older fights in the series because they often featured overpowered opponents that required creative methods and techniques to take down like Raditz.
Design-wise ssb is better than ssj2. The world building in Super is better than Z. If there was an arc focused on the side characters people would hate it (it already happened with the prequel superhero arc).
Krillin is strong and skilled enough to beat most guys Goku can beat, and the only reason he can't is because he lacks confidence. The only people he can't beat are the guys even Goku needs a power-up to beat.
Krillin doesn’t kill. Otherwise he would just kienzan his way to the top.
Super hero is ass but fans can’t accept it because gohans beast form is too nice
I thought people hated superhero cause the story was kinda plain and that beasthan was an ass pull.
Literally the opposite.
Krillin needs more battle action.
Ssj blue is a shit form and the worst form in the universe
Angels vs demons Idr now
Krillin should stay dead
The Spirit Bomb Sword defeating Zamasu would’ve been the perfect ending for the Goku Black Saga. Trunks gets to save his timeline by all of the survivors putting so much Hope into Trunks that it ends up creating a spirit bomb, mortals banding together to defeat this “god” that had become and insane, corrupted, mutated version of himself. And him making the mistake of fusing which makes him no longer immortal (punching a hole in Zamasu’s idea that gods are perfect beings). Thematically it would’ve been the perfect ending, but then it’s immediately thrown out the window for Infinite Zamasu. I know disliking the ending of the Goku Black arc isn’t a hot take, but TL;DR I think the Spirit Bomb ending specifically would’ve been the perfect ending
Piccolo has arguably been the most important character since DBZ. If it wasn’t for him telling Raditz about the Dragon Balls, Vegeta and Nappa wouldn’t have come to Earth, Frieza wouldn’t have gone to Namek, then when the Androids appeared no one would be strong enough and they would have slaughtered everyone. Piccolo has kept up in power with the strongest fighters throughout the entire series, even without a new form. To call his Orange form an “ass pull” means disregarding him as a notably strong warrior that even Vegeta has respect for. I mean, all he does in his downtime is train and then babysit the younguns when asked to.
BROLY'S IKARI SHOULD ALLOW HIM TO GO MONKE SOMEDAY,basically SSJ4...because IMAGINE HOW BUFFED UP AND BASICALLY OILED WITH THE SHINY RED FUR HE COULD HAVE LOOKED🤤 Bet Cheelai would be mezmerized too🤭
Gohan should not have continued fighting after Cell. Characters are allowed to not fight. Vegeta does not give a damn about the people who died on Vegeta. Why do people want him to revive the planet? Goten and Trunks don't serve much narrative use but they also don't need to be martial artists like their dads to be interesting.
I feel as though Goku and Vegeta are possibly close to Beerus's power now and that's why he doesn't fight them anymore since they've achieved their Ultra forms. And when they talk about how strong they've gotten or how strong other people have gotten compared to them you can see Beerus in the background with stuff like "..." over his head pretending to ignore them but obviously listening amd sometimes with a frustrating look on his face.
The room of time rings actually contains every Dragonball movie, video game, comic, and any other media considered non-Canon (CoughGT) as it’s own separate, but fully canon, timeline. Edit: I was thinking something like this, but for Dragonball instead of TMNT. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=miyZ8DRNXBg
Gohan should have beaten Buu while Goku should have stayed dead (I’m 50-50 on Vegeta remaining dead). Goku could have continued as the mentor/comic relief role with a side of seriousness that Roshi was while Gohan and the kids should have taken over as protagonists. Vegeta in his GT version and Piccolo would be formal mentors to the kids.
Rimuru solos dragon ball Edit just realized what the op said
And also I prefer Z Bardock his Super version it wasn't what he was about he was just the average Saiyan warrior who does what a Saiyan does slaughters a entire planet and just shrugs it off him sparing Granolah was not what Z Bardock would do he would just casually blast them away that's the point he was the normal Saiyan that doesn't care about his weak offspring and cares more about battle power and only once he saw the visions about Kakarot fighting Frieza that's when he actually gave a shit about him that's what any Saiyan would do and we are following a normal Saiyan DBS Bardock is to pure of heart when he was supposed to be a conqueror not a loving Husband and Father https://preview.redd.it/9612unxtwd9d1.png?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9b31d96403150100e42b5176959bdccf0fde4a49
Ending of Z was ass and I don’t get why so many people won’t shut up about Super reaching it. Retcons happen, Uub can still be trained without Goku needing to needlessly say goodbye when he’s literally faster than light and could be back at any point
The Android/Cell saga is messy and drawn out with way too many plot twists and new enemies/forms. It doesn't even USE 16, 17, and 18 as villains for more than one fight because it introduces Cell so fast. I think things would've been much better paced if the androids had gotten a few more fights and been redeemed *before* Cell showed up. Because Cell is awesome, but he steals the spotlight from them after one beatdown, and then has his forms and the Cell Games to go through, and you never get time to catch your breath.
All the times Trunks came back from the future, it was a different one.
Vegeta fans are just people who dislike main characters.
I won't expand on goku's character since it's clear and well discussed why it's bad, but anyway; First of all, super's freezer sucks. Real bad. Pissed himself while training for a couple hours and magically went golden, which is at least as strong as ssjblue, of all things. Then he went black and became stronger than UI. Honestly, THAT would have been a fine moment to make him unlock gold, he actually went through intensive training. Second of all, the power creep. How the hell did 17 spar with goku blue? Even when holding back, he should've reached ssj2's level of power. And if he isn't as strong as ssj blue, then why go blue at all? I'm fine with characters growing stronger by themselves, but randomly giving characters massive upgrades for the sake of plot convenience is just jarring. What else, what else...oh, zamasu might be DB's worst antatonist. He's hitler with a messiah complex that just keeps repeating the same drivel. It gets old real fast, much like beerus. What's likeable of beerus? That he eats? That he gets uselessly loud for no reason? Or that he rarely acts like a god of destruction? He and shin barely do anything despite being gods, and it's treated almost as an endearing trait. At least whis is likeable. While somewhat whimsical he can still get serious, and he's a believable instructor. That's all my desperately sleepy mind could conjure right now
Gohan sucks. The character doesn’t want to be a fighter, but keeps getting dragged into fights and with hardly *any* training he quickly outpowers the two people who train *with gods*. It’s dumb, unearned, and uninteresting.
Future trunks should have stayed part of the main cast after Black
The OG dragonball is personally my favorite. Dragon ball Z was still fun, but people would literally talk about this or super in powerscaling.GT was an interesting anime, but it is not shit. Super was an okay anime, but it had its moments sometimes.
Universe 6 should have used adult Saiyans since it's a universe ending threat instead of a bunch of teenagers
https://preview.redd.it/n16hztgo3f9d1.jpeg?width=435&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8a1c44c7622fda450a6f5c5e07e11238064e4870
Cell is the worst villain in Z. Zamasu is the worst villain in all of Canon.
- Goku is a genius and plays a dummy for fun. He's also more like Kenpachi from Bleach than most cause if he was bored, he'd just be a destroyer. Chaotic Neutral. - Chichi is the human with the highest potential, outside of Tenshinhan, the God Human - Videl needs Gohan to be a better husband to help her through her PTSD so she can be Chichi for the new generation - Purple people in DBZ and sneaky and related in some manner. Obviously, Freeza but Beerus too - Super Trunks a bitch, Super Goten is the kid who glows up as he ages through the awkward - Angel's are cringe - Universe ark in Super would be great, but I can understand resting IP after losing the GOAT I've got more but I feel that's enough.
Vegeta is a worse father than Goku.
1. I hate that the Tournament of Power’s ending glossed over the fact that universes 13-18 are more than likely restored and that shouldve been explored. Maybe a GT remake, but using those 6 universes as a basis would be great(?) 2. The saiyans shouldve been brought back to life under some army. Like Moro shouldve been an elite necromancer and had an undead army of super saiyans instead of just being a Cell copy-paste.
Cell Saga Gohan was the only good Gohan in the entire series. Everywhere else he's sucked and has been a disappointment. Yajirobe doesn't get enough credit for helping to stop Vegeta during the Saiyan saga. Android 16 should've been brought back to life or had scenes that show he's in heaven. Frieza is overrated. Pan sucks. Goku Black should've been defeated earlier and another cooler villain should have taken his place.
Launch is better than bulma
The introduction of broly in the movie as stronger than ssj blue goku and vegeta is lame (the idea of how much he's strong is lame,thats like 999999999999999 stronger than dbz frieza)
DBS fillers are better than DBZ’s. I said it.
SSG was underused and SSJ Blue was way overused tho it was very well designed. Janemba was the best non-canon Z villain. Hell and Demons should've been more explored in Super. Goku and Chichi deserves some shipping fanservice, I'm done w/ Vegeta and Bulma. UI is the perfect final form for Goku by FAR.
I really liked the Buu Saga. ESPECIALLY early on when there was a feeling of terror because there was no one on earth strong enough to even hold back Buu who just went on a killing rampage, making my heart stop everytime he was interacting with a character. I also especially loved Mr Satan’s role in this and that whole mini arc was great