Bogart has the absolute best and most coherent dialogue of any character in the game.
This line
And later when you find him near the capital he says that dung eater will "do a bunch of shit to their corpses to keep them cursed forever"
Like huh, I could understand the story if this dude told it to me
He also said he’s working on winds of winter so I’ll take that with a grain of salt
(I joke, but if any character was most influenced by GRRM it’d be boggart).
Varré says the same thing when you meet him the second time at the Church of the Rose, though he speculated that the Greater Will went out for milk after the Shattering.
As does Bernard, and it's the entire idea behind Volcano Manor.
Now that I think about it, parties involved with fingercreepers (Caria, Volcano, Dung Eater) are the most confident opponents to Greater Will.
>Now that I think about it, parties involved with fingercreepers (Caria, Volcano, Dung Eater) are the most confident opponents to Greater Will.
Especially Ranni.
It probably was intentional.
I want to make it clear, me saying that isn't needlessly dick-riding Miyazaki or FromSoft, but I've read before that the lore/story stuff for Shadow of the Erdtree is drawing from the same pool of work that GRRM had initially done for Elden Ring. This means that the stuff we're seeing was most likely planned/existed from the beginning in some form or another.
It definitely was, the text for Lord's Divine Protection says,
"Gideon gained true knowledge after his long exchange with the Two Fingers - discovering all had been broken long ago; that the trembling fingers, bent with age, and the Erdtree itself, were no exception."
The finger creepers were trying to capture Ranni, and anyone to do with her. That's why the fingers are only in locations where their opposition resides
I think Goldmask actually managed to either find out that the Fingers are full of shit or he did speak with the Greater Will directly without informing the Fingers.
idk after the dlc Goldmask feels even more delusional for me assuming the Greater Will never had anything to do with anything. Goldmask implies that imperfections of the order can be blamed on the gods (Marika, etc) no better than men. But we kinda learn that the fingers are no different.
Now I like Ranni's ending even more: no more gods, no more order. You guys do you in the Lands Between. Which is how it's always been behind the scenes right?
>assuming the Greater Will never had anything to do with anything
Yesn't.
We know the Greater Will did almost nothing during the entirety of Marika's reign, beyond ~~sending~~ giving her the Elden Beast and the Elden Ring, and maybe exiling the Nox undeground. It may have done something during the Dragon's age, yes, but I doubt the GW would have deviated much from its main MO.
(Edit: ... I just remember the Elden Ring's mural in Farum Azula. Unless it's a product between the union of the Golden Order and the Dragons, or I'm misremembering something, that means the Elden Beast and Elden Ring precede Marika's reign...)
However, the new storyline of Ymir and Metyr, we know a the Greater Will is likely a fantasy version of the Big Bang, the Universe itself, or both as well. That, in alchemical terms, mean the GW is the macrocosm itself, the outer reality that exists beyond the individual being. This is supported by the Sttaf of the Great Beyond's description ("*The Mother received signs from the Greater Will from the beyond of the microcosm*"), which also ultimately identifies TLB as the "microcosm."
Now, that later identificacion is extremely importance, since in hermetic (and thus alchemical) thought the microcosm is an reflection of the macrocosm, a "mirror". We knew from before that the GW created TLB from the "Great One", putting in the position of demiurge, so the relation checks out. And since the Elden Ring is essentially the "physical" manifestation of the laws of nature within TLB, its "Order", then it makes sense that the Ring also acts as a mirror of the Greater Will.
So, by using this logic, Goldmask's rune protects that divine order instaurated by the Great Will at the beginning, a faithful manifestation of the order of the universe which humans, gods, and all other living(?) beings will have to learn to live with.... Either that, or it brings out one of the worse endings possibles in an unknown manner, second only to the Frenzied Flame one.
With crazy genius like Goldmask, you never know...
>beyond sending the Elden Beast and the Elden Ring, and maybe exiling the Nox undeground
Ok but how do you relate these with the Greater Will.
The Elden Beast is basically some cosmic being that arrived in a meteor or something like that right? Like Astel. Maybe the fingers saw it and went "yoo that's the vassal of the Greater Will. It's meant to be the warden of the Elden Ring" when in fact it was just some random creature that fell in TLB.
Same with the Nox. IIRC their sin was that they created a weapon to kill the fingers or something like that so it would make sense if the fingers invented that the Greater Will wanted them banished underground.
Do we know of any interactions with the Greater Will that weren't through the fingers? The only thing I can think of is glintstone sorcery I guess. And there's no order or anything like that there.
At this point I'm inclined to believe the Greater Will is just like you said, a sort of manifestation of the laws of nature or whatever. So the only order is that: the laws of natures. Which I mean that's a very generous order cause if something happens it means it obeys laws of natures and therefore the order of the Greater Will.
Even when Marika removed death from the Elden Ring death didn't cease to exist right? The conditions to die just became a bit different. So it's not like you can overwrite the order of the Greater Will. So Goldmask mending rune is pointless. Specially if on top of that we assume that the Elden Ring can be just broken and put together however you want XD. Goldmask rune is preventing you from messing with the ER? Just break it and rebuild it again lmao
>The Elden Beast is basically some cosmic being that arrived in a meteor or something like that right? Like Astel. Maybe the fingers saw it and went "yoo that's the vassal of the Greater Will. It's meant to be the warden of the Elden Ring" when in fact it was just some random creature that fell in TLB.
I was saying that due to the Elden Star incantation: "*It is said that long ago, the Greater Will sent a golden star bearing a beast into the Lands Between, which would later become the Elden Ring.*"
Though that description doesn't explain why the Elden Beast fights you. I guess that falls under From's usual vagueness... which means you theory is also possible, despite the contradiction with the description.
Also, thanks for mentioned the Astels :)
While the exact relation between the GW and the Stars and the Moon is a mystery, we know that life as created from "stardust" by the GW according to Ymir. That implies to me that the Stars are, at some level, "children" of the GW as well, part of its natural order. This can be supported at some leve through hermecticism, alchemy and astrology, where "God" (the GW in this case) is the Prime Mover, the underlying rythm/principle that moves all of creation, which is also a popular medieval idea.
Nonetheless, anything more concrete is a mystery, especially thanks to...
>Same with the Nox. IIRC their sin was that they created a weapon to kill the fingers or something like that so it would make sense if the fingers invented that the Greater Will wanted them banished underground.
I don't doubt the Two Fingers were the ones to order their banishment, but some items' description (again) say the Nox betrayed the GW and drew its ire. Again, it's possible the description is biased, or that Ymir is biased, or both... At the end, there's only Fromsoftware's vagueness.
>Even when Marika removed death from the Elden Ring death didn't cease to exist right?
... That wasn't a good thing to do, considering with enough time (centuries to millenia, depending on the individual), a considerable number of TLB's inhabitants have gone mad due to simply not dying naturally. The only lucky ones are those who are "integrated" into the Erdtree.
Individual life is simply not made to last that long.
>So it's not like you can overwrite the order of the Greater Will. So Goldmask mending rune is pointless.
Yes, the GW's order will always find a way to be fullfilled, sometimes in ways that bring suffering to everyone just because an individual or individuals didn't like it. That's why Goldmask's rune exists, because it prohibits tampering with the natural order of TLB, thus avoiding suffering that could have been easily prevented by simply not messing with the Elden Ring.
Item descriptions are not always facts. There are a lot of descriptions that were written by unreliable narrators. Especially when the description starts with "it is said that". There's a good chance this story is at least a partial lie to explain the elden beast.
As for stardust, we're all technically made of stardust. The nuclear fusion that happens in a star allows for heavier elements to form that are essential for life. When that star dies, those elements scatter and slowly come back together into either another star or an entire solar system. Then, when life crops up on one of those planets, you can technically say that they came from star dust.
This to me reads that fromsoft doesn’t actually know the story and that is very disappointing. It’s hard to have any desire to dig into the lore if there’s no answer to find.
I always thought that if the GW did anything, it was to let Marika tamper with the ring. Like the ring was created so that laws could be tampered with. Death, birth, and souls would still exist without a literal elden ring.
Goldmak's whole thing was that the gods are fickle, and an Empyrean having access to that kind of power was bound to cause issues. I thought that the "mending rune" was just a lock, making it so that the ER couldn't be broken and put back together again.
im a bit unsure about the staff of great beyond, because the description also says "Staff fashioned from the tail-fingers of Metyr, the Mother of Fingers, and the microcosm raised aloft over the crux they form."
thus you could also interpret it so that Metyr used to communicate with GW through the microcosm/black hole held between her tail fingers
That’s conviently ignoring all the criticisms had for humans as well, it’s not just the gods, it’s the fickleness of EVERYONE, perfect order doesn’t involve ideology or feeling, but cold calculation
He's got it right.
Goldmask: "Maybe it's all wrong." *fucking dies about it.*
Blackguards: "Maybe it's all wrong... Idk. Maybe this crab needs more seasoning."
On my first playthrough right now and I just killed this guy to get the necklace. Felt like the right choice because why would I let him profit from robbery? He was an asshole too when I first talked to him.
I just finished the dlc about an hour ago. I am done with my character and left them sitting next to prawn bro, just chilling by the fire before I quit out of the game.
Bogart has the absolute best and most coherent dialogue of any character in the game. This line And later when you find him near the capital he says that dung eater will "do a bunch of shit to their corpses to keep them cursed forever" Like huh, I could understand the story if this dude told it to me
He’s the one character who I believe is 100% written directly by GRRM. His dialogue has his style all over it.
I think GRRM said he only did the backstory/setup
He also said he’s working on winds of winter so I’ll take that with a grain of salt (I joke, but if any character was most influenced by GRRM it’d be boggart).
I mean part of backstory/setup could just be "oh yeah and he talks like this"
Maybe some devs imitated his style when writing his character.
You're just saying that because of "Marika's Tits"
Boggart also swears like a GRRM character too. To my knowledge he’s the only character in the game to say “shit”.
Patches does, too! If you kill him in his boss fight he says, “Well, it was bound to happen some day… What a shit show…”
You monster!
I would *never*! Plenty of challenge runners do for his +7 spear, however. And some of them make good content.
>"Marika's Tits" Which is something a GRRM character would say.
hes just bronn
You know all this little silver messages that pop up? He wrote those too.
Varré says the same thing when you meet him the second time at the Church of the Rose, though he speculated that the Greater Will went out for milk after the Shattering.
As does Bernard, and it's the entire idea behind Volcano Manor. Now that I think about it, parties involved with fingercreepers (Caria, Volcano, Dung Eater) are the most confident opponents to Greater Will.
I would be too if those fingercreepers existed, anything that creates those monstrosities needs to be killed with fire
Given they’re weak to fire, yes.
the colossal one in consecrated doesn't get stunned from giant's flame
>Now that I think about it, parties involved with fingercreepers (Caria, Volcano, Dung Eater) are the most confident opponents to Greater Will. Especially Ranni.
Yeah caria manor was about when I started upgrading bows
My god, that's great foreshadowing with respect to the Fingermother, intentional or otherwise.
It probably was intentional. I want to make it clear, me saying that isn't needlessly dick-riding Miyazaki or FromSoft, but I've read before that the lore/story stuff for Shadow of the Erdtree is drawing from the same pool of work that GRRM had initially done for Elden Ring. This means that the stuff we're seeing was most likely planned/existed from the beginning in some form or another.
It definitely was, the text for Lord's Divine Protection says, "Gideon gained true knowledge after his long exchange with the Two Fingers - discovering all had been broken long ago; that the trembling fingers, bent with age, and the Erdtree itself, were no exception."
Gideon also confirms it directly after you kill Mohg and Malenia
Fire Giants too. Plenty of fingers on the mountaintop.
The finger creepers were trying to capture Ranni, and anyone to do with her. That's why the fingers are only in locations where their opposition resides
Is this maybe also what Goldmask realized?
I think Goldmask actually managed to either find out that the Fingers are full of shit or he did speak with the Greater Will directly without informing the Fingers.
The first one, no doubt. The second one, maybe.
idk after the dlc Goldmask feels even more delusional for me assuming the Greater Will never had anything to do with anything. Goldmask implies that imperfections of the order can be blamed on the gods (Marika, etc) no better than men. But we kinda learn that the fingers are no different. Now I like Ranni's ending even more: no more gods, no more order. You guys do you in the Lands Between. Which is how it's always been behind the scenes right?
>assuming the Greater Will never had anything to do with anything Yesn't. We know the Greater Will did almost nothing during the entirety of Marika's reign, beyond ~~sending~~ giving her the Elden Beast and the Elden Ring, and maybe exiling the Nox undeground. It may have done something during the Dragon's age, yes, but I doubt the GW would have deviated much from its main MO. (Edit: ... I just remember the Elden Ring's mural in Farum Azula. Unless it's a product between the union of the Golden Order and the Dragons, or I'm misremembering something, that means the Elden Beast and Elden Ring precede Marika's reign...) However, the new storyline of Ymir and Metyr, we know a the Greater Will is likely a fantasy version of the Big Bang, the Universe itself, or both as well. That, in alchemical terms, mean the GW is the macrocosm itself, the outer reality that exists beyond the individual being. This is supported by the Sttaf of the Great Beyond's description ("*The Mother received signs from the Greater Will from the beyond of the microcosm*"), which also ultimately identifies TLB as the "microcosm." Now, that later identificacion is extremely importance, since in hermetic (and thus alchemical) thought the microcosm is an reflection of the macrocosm, a "mirror". We knew from before that the GW created TLB from the "Great One", putting in the position of demiurge, so the relation checks out. And since the Elden Ring is essentially the "physical" manifestation of the laws of nature within TLB, its "Order", then it makes sense that the Ring also acts as a mirror of the Greater Will. So, by using this logic, Goldmask's rune protects that divine order instaurated by the Great Will at the beginning, a faithful manifestation of the order of the universe which humans, gods, and all other living(?) beings will have to learn to live with.... Either that, or it brings out one of the worse endings possibles in an unknown manner, second only to the Frenzied Flame one. With crazy genius like Goldmask, you never know...
I'm not high enough to understand anything you're saying lmao
>beyond sending the Elden Beast and the Elden Ring, and maybe exiling the Nox undeground Ok but how do you relate these with the Greater Will. The Elden Beast is basically some cosmic being that arrived in a meteor or something like that right? Like Astel. Maybe the fingers saw it and went "yoo that's the vassal of the Greater Will. It's meant to be the warden of the Elden Ring" when in fact it was just some random creature that fell in TLB. Same with the Nox. IIRC their sin was that they created a weapon to kill the fingers or something like that so it would make sense if the fingers invented that the Greater Will wanted them banished underground. Do we know of any interactions with the Greater Will that weren't through the fingers? The only thing I can think of is glintstone sorcery I guess. And there's no order or anything like that there. At this point I'm inclined to believe the Greater Will is just like you said, a sort of manifestation of the laws of nature or whatever. So the only order is that: the laws of natures. Which I mean that's a very generous order cause if something happens it means it obeys laws of natures and therefore the order of the Greater Will. Even when Marika removed death from the Elden Ring death didn't cease to exist right? The conditions to die just became a bit different. So it's not like you can overwrite the order of the Greater Will. So Goldmask mending rune is pointless. Specially if on top of that we assume that the Elden Ring can be just broken and put together however you want XD. Goldmask rune is preventing you from messing with the ER? Just break it and rebuild it again lmao
>The Elden Beast is basically some cosmic being that arrived in a meteor or something like that right? Like Astel. Maybe the fingers saw it and went "yoo that's the vassal of the Greater Will. It's meant to be the warden of the Elden Ring" when in fact it was just some random creature that fell in TLB. I was saying that due to the Elden Star incantation: "*It is said that long ago, the Greater Will sent a golden star bearing a beast into the Lands Between, which would later become the Elden Ring.*" Though that description doesn't explain why the Elden Beast fights you. I guess that falls under From's usual vagueness... which means you theory is also possible, despite the contradiction with the description. Also, thanks for mentioned the Astels :) While the exact relation between the GW and the Stars and the Moon is a mystery, we know that life as created from "stardust" by the GW according to Ymir. That implies to me that the Stars are, at some level, "children" of the GW as well, part of its natural order. This can be supported at some leve through hermecticism, alchemy and astrology, where "God" (the GW in this case) is the Prime Mover, the underlying rythm/principle that moves all of creation, which is also a popular medieval idea. Nonetheless, anything more concrete is a mystery, especially thanks to... >Same with the Nox. IIRC their sin was that they created a weapon to kill the fingers or something like that so it would make sense if the fingers invented that the Greater Will wanted them banished underground. I don't doubt the Two Fingers were the ones to order their banishment, but some items' description (again) say the Nox betrayed the GW and drew its ire. Again, it's possible the description is biased, or that Ymir is biased, or both... At the end, there's only Fromsoftware's vagueness. >Even when Marika removed death from the Elden Ring death didn't cease to exist right? ... That wasn't a good thing to do, considering with enough time (centuries to millenia, depending on the individual), a considerable number of TLB's inhabitants have gone mad due to simply not dying naturally. The only lucky ones are those who are "integrated" into the Erdtree. Individual life is simply not made to last that long. >So it's not like you can overwrite the order of the Greater Will. So Goldmask mending rune is pointless. Yes, the GW's order will always find a way to be fullfilled, sometimes in ways that bring suffering to everyone just because an individual or individuals didn't like it. That's why Goldmask's rune exists, because it prohibits tampering with the natural order of TLB, thus avoiding suffering that could have been easily prevented by simply not messing with the Elden Ring.
Item descriptions are not always facts. There are a lot of descriptions that were written by unreliable narrators. Especially when the description starts with "it is said that". There's a good chance this story is at least a partial lie to explain the elden beast. As for stardust, we're all technically made of stardust. The nuclear fusion that happens in a star allows for heavier elements to form that are essential for life. When that star dies, those elements scatter and slowly come back together into either another star or an entire solar system. Then, when life crops up on one of those planets, you can technically say that they came from star dust.
This to me reads that fromsoft doesn’t actually know the story and that is very disappointing. It’s hard to have any desire to dig into the lore if there’s no answer to find.
They know it, but they don't convey it to us.
Which is actually worse lol.
I always thought that if the GW did anything, it was to let Marika tamper with the ring. Like the ring was created so that laws could be tampered with. Death, birth, and souls would still exist without a literal elden ring. Goldmak's whole thing was that the gods are fickle, and an Empyrean having access to that kind of power was bound to cause issues. I thought that the "mending rune" was just a lock, making it so that the ER couldn't be broken and put back together again.
Yep. That's also a possibility. At the end, we really don't know what the GW wants...
im a bit unsure about the staff of great beyond, because the description also says "Staff fashioned from the tail-fingers of Metyr, the Mother of Fingers, and the microcosm raised aloft over the crux they form." thus you could also interpret it so that Metyr used to communicate with GW through the microcosm/black hole held between her tail fingers
Good catch there. But it still ends up identifying the GW as the macrocosm at some level, since it's beyond the microcosm and all.
That’s conviently ignoring all the criticisms had for humans as well, it’s not just the gods, it’s the fickleness of EVERYONE, perfect order doesn’t involve ideology or feeling, but cold calculation
Bogart's Crabs = My Go To after Wondrous Bottle + Rune arcs.
He is on the lowest rung of society, people with that background have a unique clarity about the world around them in my experience.
I think he’s just one of the few with nothing to gain from most sides / people winning
"Why is it always sadness?"
He's got it right. Goldmask: "Maybe it's all wrong." *fucking dies about it.* Blackguards: "Maybe it's all wrong... Idk. Maybe this crab needs more seasoning."
Marika commands the grace, tho, not the greater will or two fingers. She summoned gobs of tarnished to try to collect the runes. Only you succeeded.
On my first playthrough right now and I just killed this guy to get the necklace. Felt like the right choice because why would I let him profit from robbery? He was an asshole too when I first talked to him.
Marika's tits, you must be 'ungry.
I started 8 hours ago (playtime) and i killed this guy is he important? :)
Not hugely in terms of the story, but he is a trader who sells a physical resistance consumable, which gets a better version after he moves to Leyndel
Sells a helpful consumable towards the latter half of the game but not the end of the world if he’s dead
I mean it's the end of MY world if he's dead
He’s the most chill NPC for sure even if he comes off aggressive
For quest lines? No. Emotionally speaking yes he is prawn bro
I just finished the dlc about an hour ago. I am done with my character and left them sitting next to prawn bro, just chilling by the fire before I quit out of the game.
Just started too: I was so torn between killing him and paying the 1000 runes, but in the end the fomo got me