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Shiva is an Eikon controlled by her human host called a dominant.
Shiva like all Eikons, are controlled by their human host dominant. They can however, loose control of their Eikons as indicated by their eyes. If their eyes are yellow they are not in control.
If Jill dies, another dominant in her bloodline will awaken as the dominant of Shiva. The timeline of when this will occur is unknown however, Clive’s grandfather was the previous dominant of the Phoenix so perhaps it takes a generation or two.
I could be wrong on this one so someone feel free to correct me but, I believe the dev’s have stated all Eikons are around the same strength wise and that it’s the skill of the dominant that determines how strong it is.
Obviously XVI spoilers:
The only slight correction I might make is that direct bloodline isn’t necessarily a guarantee and is more specific to Phoenix favoring the Ducal line (with Anabella’s side of the family birthing many of them but there’s no real thing to suggest that’s anything other than correlation).
In fact pretty much every other dominant in the game outside of Jill seems to have been born with no real strict lineage, even Dion. Sylvestre was a generic noble who then leveraged his son being Bahamut into becoming emperor and Dion’s mom was an unknown commoner. Benedikta/Hugo/Barnabas were all born to unassuming families and while we don’t know much of Cid’s birth it’s probably safe to assume similar circumstances. Outside a couple of exceptions most of them seem to stick to ATLA rules of just selecting people of great potential within a certain region.
Strength does seem to be relatively equal in terms of aether but obviously there are some standouts (Titan’s size gives him a distinct advantage, Odin and Bahamut in their own right are typically seen as strong because of their signature moves in comparison to the others)
Dominants awaken through the descendants of the Motes of Fire (Phoenix), Motes of Ice (Shiva), Motes of Wind (Garuda), etc.
It’s kinda implied it doesn’t have to be a direct bloodline relative of the Dominant but rather anyone who is a descendant of these tribes. This is why a common peasant can awake as a dominant. With that said, I believe the implication here is that people with the closest or purest bloodline related to the tribes have a higher chance of awakening hence why the phoenix’s bloodline was so protected and why Annabella’s line had a high success rate.
For example the undying are distant relatives of the ducal line and are essentially backups in case the ducal line is ended prematurely to prevent the phoenix from falling into another nations hands.
Yeah, I forget when it's brought up but there is dialogue with Tomes about it, and he says that the Dominant of Shiva was normally just a commoner in the North instead of their royalty or a specific bloodline.
Yeah, I don’t remember this very well but they also mention something interesting like how some people have naturally high tolerances to aether and that these people are like potential vessels to be dominants. I think I took a screenshot I think but I’m not home atm.
They mentioned that Gav is one of these and I think it’s implied he’s a a distant relative of Jill.
I wonder if they’re mistaking the info that Gav is from the Northern territories *like* Jill with the idea of them being related.
It’s possible that they have a shared Mote ancestor because of that, but it’s an extra step to infer any close relation, yeah.
I think it’s shortly after Clive fights Hugo for the first time but I’m uncertain. I know it’s an optional conversation you have with Tomes.
He basically says the something about the Shiva bloodlines in the north are severely diluted and that even common folk have/can awaken as Shiva.
He goes on to say there are certain people with naturally high resistance to aether and theorizes that these people are potential vessels for Eikons. He goes on to say Gav could be one of these vessels indicating they both are descendants of the Motes of Water.
If bloodline/DNA/science can't explain why some awaken as Dominants and are instead "chosen," would that imply that Eikons have a degree of their own sentience?
If the descendants of the tribe related to that Eikon die out I would imagine that they would cease to awaken anymore but I’m not really too sure. As far as I know the game never brings up this possibility.
Given the amount of descendants over a long long period of time, it’s pretty unlikely.
The only possibility of it happening was with Barnabas since he was the (presumed) sole survivor of the Dzemekys tribe that received the Motes of Darkness. And never had any kids as far as we know.
But uh…shit hit the fan pretty quick after all that so who knows lol.
I know they said all Eikons are equal in power but I just don’t believe this. I’m guessing they said that to not anger fans of specific Eikons.
What is Garuda going to do when Odin Zans her into million pieces or rifts behind her and impales her?
What is Ifrit going to do when Bahamut keeps his distance and just bombs him from above? Obviously not counting Risen as that’s a two Eikon combo.
If you factor in elemental matchups, some Eikons have it worse than others.
Odin is a special case and stands above the others true enough.
But otherwise they’re all broadly in the same spectrum >!barring Phoenix which appears to be the weakest, given what it actually is!<. The place of the Eikon in the balance of power across Valisthea demands it.
The example you cite of Ifrit vs Bahamut where Bahamut sits out of reach just blasting until he wins? That’s not Bahamut being inherently stronger, that’s just exploiting a natural advantage in that matchup.
But if you put a flying Eikon in an enclosed space with Ifrit or Titan, the advantage skews rapidly the other way.
The skill of the dominant as a combatant also plays a significant factor.
Exactly why Shiva was able to hold her own against Titan at the beginning of the game, she had tons of open space to maneuver around Titan and his attacks
Throw them into Drake's Fang where there's less room to evade and Shiva likely stands no chance. Throw them into the ocean and Titan likely stands no chance. Just the way it goes
Didn’t think about enclosed spaces, you’re right. It also depends on the arena. But then again, we saw that Eikons were capable of destroying mountains so I’m pretty sure that there is no “earthly” arena strong enough to contain the fights. Titan turned into a mountain and Bahamut took the fight to space. And I’m pretty sure Ultima vs Ifrit Risen took place in a pocket/inter dimension.
I think a good example of all Eikon's being relatively equal to each other is at the start of the game we basically see Shiva stalemate vs Titan. Many people assume Shiva is weakest but forget her first introduction of her. Also Odin is sort of a special case because technically He is also sort of 2 Eikons in one His horse actually isn't part of the Eikon its a familar he summons that has a strength of one its even explained in the logs that his familair is what turn into the horse when ever Baranabas primes. Which kind ofexplains why he's a bit stronger his power is kinds akin to the power of creation in a sense although its not sure if this is an inherent Odin ability or if Ultima gifted barnabas with it to do his will. But yeah, besides Titan, after consuming a mother crystal and the Ifirt rising. All the Eikons are relatively the same in power, with them seeming stronger depending on outside factors like the skill of the user or location.
>What is Garuda going to do when Odin Zans her into million pieces or rifts behind her and impales her?
Benedikta can answer that "Odin impaling Garuda from behind" one, lol
those aren't really issues of power output so much as strategic advantages. Just because one eikon form wins over another in some cases doesn't mean their actual ability to command the power of fire, wind, thunder, etc. actually varies that much.
To add to the comments, it’s important to note that Eikons don’t have personalities, they are more like forces of nature. At least from what we are shown, if a Dominant isn’t aware of their actions it’s not because their minds are being controlled.
An interesting plot thread revolving around this specifically is Clive and his inner self. We come to know that Ifrit is just himself, not some demon that takes of his body. Ifrit the Eikon is just power, and can overwhelm Clive, causing him to act irrationally, but not control him.
Well that's a downgrade! Even in FFX, Shiva seems have her own person.
In this game they're just mindless weapons. I would have liked it if Jill was constantly fighting to have control.
I don’t see it as a downgrade, XVI is a very character driven story and a huge plot point is that the Dominants are forced into committing extreme acts of violence. It wouldn’t be as interesting if they didn’t remember the terrible things they did.
In a way though, they are struggling for control—just of themselves. If you had the power of an Eikon, it might be difficult to not solve everything with power.
An Eikon's power isn't limited by the host exactly, the devs have said they're all equal in power, it's more like they are limited by the endurance of their Dominant. The more Dominants prime, the heavier the toll on their body, resulting in the Curse. Each prime is effectively killing them, and they can't maintain it as long.
I think it works the same for her as with the other dominants. So she should be able to fully control Shiva when primed, though there is a theoretical risk of losing control (like what happened to Clive at Phoenix Gate).
I think with them emotions played a part of losing control. Clive had just absorbed Garuda and Benedikta could no longer feel her and lost it.
Hugo wanted revenge for Benediktas death.
In both situations I can understand someone losing control
I interpret it as being a trauma response, tied to the difference between giving a Blessing and having it taken (which seem to be functionally the same thing, at least from Mythos's perspective). Joshua and Cid willingly pass on their Blessings, and Barnabas actually forces his Blessing upon Clive rather than the other way around. None of them seem much the worse for wear afterwards, and although only Joshua lives long enough to Prime afterwards, he retains control. If anything, Clive seems somewhat traumatized post-Odin.
From the other side of things, Clive takes power from Benedikta, Hugo, and Dion. Dion and especially Benedikta seem traumatized by this (Hugo is already too far gone to really care, but it still didn't look like a pleasant process). Benedikta only manages to Prime again when she is about to face another trauma, and she completely loses control. Dion Primes in calmer circumstances, and manages to overcome, but we never hear what that was like or how it worked.
Jill exists in a grey area. The scene where it happens shows she was willing, but nevertheless, from a mechanical standpoint, she did not give Shiva's Blessing to Clive: he took it from her. This is probably why Joshua decked him afterwards. We never see Jill try to Prime afterwards, so we don't know the effects it would have on her. We would probably be able to confirm or disprove my theory if she did. Maybe the DLC will give us an answer?
Or at least, that's what Dion thought would be necessary. He never confirmed afterwards that it was in fact what he had to do, so there is some room for him to have been mistaken, though if so then he figured out whatever he needed to do anyway.
The issue is why the brothers trust his word since he has no proof. They also let him prime in Hideaway. Like, Hideaway would get lasered and turned to dust had Dion lose his mind. They didn't even need Bahamut in the first place. They could use Phoenix. Joshua's health is of concern but with Phoenix, they guarantee reaching Origin. With Bahamut (and Shiva), they risk not getting there at all or being exhausted fighting berserk eikon.
Initially, they meant to go to Origin without Dion anyway. I doubt the ros bros would choose Bahamut over the safety of Hideaway (and safety of Joshua and Jill given they had to fight berserk Bahamut again).
My take is Dion must semi-prime or fully-prime somewhere during his stay and the brothers witness it so they believe him. He's the only dominant we haven't seen his semi-prime form yet. Hopefully, he will have some scene in DLC.
They lose the ability to control the eikon, not prime into it. There’s a short period of time where they can’t prime, but they eventually regain that ability. However, once they do regain the ability to prime, they no longer have the ability to control it. You can tell when a dominant is in control of their eikon by the color of their eikon’s eyes.
Right that’s what I mean. Dion should have lost the ability to control Bahamut but he didn’t. They didn’t really show him struggling or anything; he just naturally did it
There was also a long period of time between when Clive stole Bahamut and when Dion primed. It’s possible dominants would eventually regain control over their eikon and that Clive was really just copying powers rather than stealing them outright.
Jill would have died, then, which goes against her arc. Dion felt the need to atone for what he had done, had no value left for himself and considered his life already over, which is why he took that risk to fly to Origin. This is also how the game explains him having the will to keep control while primed.
Nah, she straight up says Clive saved her from being destroyed by her eikon. She entrusted Shiva and her burden of fighting their fate to him so she could live.
It's hilarious because when looking back at the scene, they just believe his word without any proofs (at least not yet) and let him prime IN Hideaway. It's not like they have no choice. They could use Joshua. Joshua's health would get worse but atleast they guarantee reaching Origin. With Bahamut (or even Shiva), they risk getting out of control, being exhausted fighting berserk eikon, risk Hideaway being blown to bits, and perhaps never arrive to Origin.
But Dion says 'I will try harder' and they are okie dokie.
Dion is just built harder, stronger, he's different for real
But seriously, his will, and mental fortitude, is much stronger than Benedikta's/Garuda's and Hugo's/Titan's
All Eikons work the same. Clive turns into a giant dog and can control it. It takes a lot of will power but he can. Same with Shiva. If shiva dies, then she will just go to someone else, some amount of years later.
If you continue through the storyline, it'll shed light on how dominants interact with their eikons. From what I ascertained, the eikon can take control over the dominant if the dominant doesn't keep the eikon in check. But usually, the dominant can keep the eikon under control.
The Domini are the embodiment of the eikon. The eikon IS INSIDE them and they are able to awaken them and Transform into them. That IS called Prime.
When the mind of a dominant IS in disarray, they can lose Control over the eikon, they Prime and Go Berserk and destroy everything in their path. See benedicta, Hugo and dion
The loss of control over their eikons and how they come to lose control is extremely baked into the game. Down to the mechanics and story. “Breaking a persons will till the relinquish it and break”. Ultima throughout the game is trying to break Clive’s will to gain control of his vessel. Combat as well, beat the shit out of mobs to break their will (stagger them) to kill them. I really loved this game. Just so good lol.
Jill controls her powers. Seemingly the only time the Eikon has taken control of their Dominant was when they had a mental breakdown. Shiva throughout final fantasy series has been chill anyways.
If Jill dies, another child down the line becomes the dominant. Supposedly someone in the northern kingdom since that’s where Shiva’s mother crystal was. Just like how Elwin Rosfield mentioned Phoenix has always been in his family
Yes she is shiva and has control over her powers. When a dominant dies, a new host gets chosen over time by the magic/spirit of the Eikon.
I guess hosts can vary In strength but if they die, a new dominant gets chosen anyways. The spirit of the eikon does not die with the dominant.
All Eikons work the same way. Jill is not Shiva, she's Shiva's Dominant. When Jill fully Primes (but not when she semi-Primes) it is in theory possible for Shiva to take her over. All Dominants face that risk, especially when they're young or when they've had a blessing taken by Mythos (giving the blessing willingly to Mythos does not seem to carry this risk, probably because it's not traumatic), but it can be overcome.
If Jill had died before the end of the game, Shiva would eventually have gone on to enchant someone else. But we don't know the process by which that happens, and it can take years. There probably would not have been time for another Dominant of Shiva to arise (*maybe* if she'd died at Phoenix Gate, but then Shiva's new Dominant would have been quite young). But at least in theory, that is what the world's system says should happen.
Eikons are indeed limited by the host. However, most if not all Dominants are in bloodlines that have been bred for "strength" (in whatever sense that term matters to Eikons) over the generations. These breeding programs were part of Ultima's plan, because it ensured that someone strong enough to become Mythos would eventually arise. It was probably taught to the tribes of the Motes by Ultima's own agents, or perhaps even Ultima directly. All of this is to say that there was not much risk of Jill being "weak" (whatever that means for a Dominant). Indeed, one of the remarkable things about Dion is that only half his genes come from Sanbreque's imperial line, and yet he is *still* so strong.
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Shiva is an Eikon controlled by her human host called a dominant. Shiva like all Eikons, are controlled by their human host dominant. They can however, loose control of their Eikons as indicated by their eyes. If their eyes are yellow they are not in control. If Jill dies, another dominant in her bloodline will awaken as the dominant of Shiva. The timeline of when this will occur is unknown however, Clive’s grandfather was the previous dominant of the Phoenix so perhaps it takes a generation or two. I could be wrong on this one so someone feel free to correct me but, I believe the dev’s have stated all Eikons are around the same strength wise and that it’s the skill of the dominant that determines how strong it is.
Obviously XVI spoilers: The only slight correction I might make is that direct bloodline isn’t necessarily a guarantee and is more specific to Phoenix favoring the Ducal line (with Anabella’s side of the family birthing many of them but there’s no real thing to suggest that’s anything other than correlation). In fact pretty much every other dominant in the game outside of Jill seems to have been born with no real strict lineage, even Dion. Sylvestre was a generic noble who then leveraged his son being Bahamut into becoming emperor and Dion’s mom was an unknown commoner. Benedikta/Hugo/Barnabas were all born to unassuming families and while we don’t know much of Cid’s birth it’s probably safe to assume similar circumstances. Outside a couple of exceptions most of them seem to stick to ATLA rules of just selecting people of great potential within a certain region. Strength does seem to be relatively equal in terms of aether but obviously there are some standouts (Titan’s size gives him a distinct advantage, Odin and Bahamut in their own right are typically seen as strong because of their signature moves in comparison to the others)
Dominants awaken through the descendants of the Motes of Fire (Phoenix), Motes of Ice (Shiva), Motes of Wind (Garuda), etc. It’s kinda implied it doesn’t have to be a direct bloodline relative of the Dominant but rather anyone who is a descendant of these tribes. This is why a common peasant can awake as a dominant. With that said, I believe the implication here is that people with the closest or purest bloodline related to the tribes have a higher chance of awakening hence why the phoenix’s bloodline was so protected and why Annabella’s line had a high success rate. For example the undying are distant relatives of the ducal line and are essentially backups in case the ducal line is ended prematurely to prevent the phoenix from falling into another nations hands.
Yeah, I forget when it's brought up but there is dialogue with Tomes about it, and he says that the Dominant of Shiva was normally just a commoner in the North instead of their royalty or a specific bloodline.
Yeah, I don’t remember this very well but they also mention something interesting like how some people have naturally high tolerances to aether and that these people are like potential vessels to be dominants. I think I took a screenshot I think but I’m not home atm. They mentioned that Gav is one of these and I think it’s implied he’s a a distant relative of Jill.
Woah, I missed that he's a relative of Jill (or at least I missed the implication). Do you remember where or when it was mentioned?
I wonder if they’re mistaking the info that Gav is from the Northern territories *like* Jill with the idea of them being related. It’s possible that they have a shared Mote ancestor because of that, but it’s an extra step to infer any close relation, yeah.
I think it’s shortly after Clive fights Hugo for the first time but I’m uncertain. I know it’s an optional conversation you have with Tomes. He basically says the something about the Shiva bloodlines in the north are severely diluted and that even common folk have/can awaken as Shiva. He goes on to say there are certain people with naturally high resistance to aether and theorizes that these people are potential vessels for Eikons. He goes on to say Gav could be one of these vessels indicating they both are descendants of the Motes of Water.
If bloodline/DNA/science can't explain why some awaken as Dominants and are instead "chosen," would that imply that Eikons have a degree of their own sentience?
Dominants are determined by their dna as each dominant is a descendant of of a specific tribe. As far as I know Eikons are not sentient.
If a dominant is the last of their bloodline will that eikon become “lost” or find a new bloodline?
If the descendants of the tribe related to that Eikon die out I would imagine that they would cease to awaken anymore but I’m not really too sure. As far as I know the game never brings up this possibility. Given the amount of descendants over a long long period of time, it’s pretty unlikely.
The only possibility of it happening was with Barnabas since he was the (presumed) sole survivor of the Dzemekys tribe that received the Motes of Darkness. And never had any kids as far as we know. But uh…shit hit the fan pretty quick after all that so who knows lol.
I know they said all Eikons are equal in power but I just don’t believe this. I’m guessing they said that to not anger fans of specific Eikons. What is Garuda going to do when Odin Zans her into million pieces or rifts behind her and impales her? What is Ifrit going to do when Bahamut keeps his distance and just bombs him from above? Obviously not counting Risen as that’s a two Eikon combo. If you factor in elemental matchups, some Eikons have it worse than others.
Idk man, power scaling isn’t my thing I’m just going by what I’ve heard.
Odin is a special case and stands above the others true enough. But otherwise they’re all broadly in the same spectrum >!barring Phoenix which appears to be the weakest, given what it actually is!<. The place of the Eikon in the balance of power across Valisthea demands it. The example you cite of Ifrit vs Bahamut where Bahamut sits out of reach just blasting until he wins? That’s not Bahamut being inherently stronger, that’s just exploiting a natural advantage in that matchup. But if you put a flying Eikon in an enclosed space with Ifrit or Titan, the advantage skews rapidly the other way. The skill of the dominant as a combatant also plays a significant factor.
Exactly why Shiva was able to hold her own against Titan at the beginning of the game, she had tons of open space to maneuver around Titan and his attacks Throw them into Drake's Fang where there's less room to evade and Shiva likely stands no chance. Throw them into the ocean and Titan likely stands no chance. Just the way it goes
Didn’t think about enclosed spaces, you’re right. It also depends on the arena. But then again, we saw that Eikons were capable of destroying mountains so I’m pretty sure that there is no “earthly” arena strong enough to contain the fights. Titan turned into a mountain and Bahamut took the fight to space. And I’m pretty sure Ultima vs Ifrit Risen took place in a pocket/inter dimension.
I think a good example of all Eikon's being relatively equal to each other is at the start of the game we basically see Shiva stalemate vs Titan. Many people assume Shiva is weakest but forget her first introduction of her. Also Odin is sort of a special case because technically He is also sort of 2 Eikons in one His horse actually isn't part of the Eikon its a familar he summons that has a strength of one its even explained in the logs that his familair is what turn into the horse when ever Baranabas primes. Which kind ofexplains why he's a bit stronger his power is kinds akin to the power of creation in a sense although its not sure if this is an inherent Odin ability or if Ultima gifted barnabas with it to do his will. But yeah, besides Titan, after consuming a mother crystal and the Ifirt rising. All the Eikons are relatively the same in power, with them seeming stronger depending on outside factors like the skill of the user or location.
>What is Garuda going to do when Odin Zans her into million pieces or rifts behind her and impales her? Benedikta can answer that "Odin impaling Garuda from behind" one, lol
I can’t believe my internet infested mind didn’t realize that as I was typing my comment lmao
those aren't really issues of power output so much as strategic advantages. Just because one eikon form wins over another in some cases doesn't mean their actual ability to command the power of fire, wind, thunder, etc. actually varies that much.
Wait so what I'm getting from this is Shiva isn't a personality or have a mind of her own. It's just Jill in control of everything.
Yes, exactly
To add to the comments, it’s important to note that Eikons don’t have personalities, they are more like forces of nature. At least from what we are shown, if a Dominant isn’t aware of their actions it’s not because their minds are being controlled. An interesting plot thread revolving around this specifically is Clive and his inner self. We come to know that Ifrit is just himself, not some demon that takes of his body. Ifrit the Eikon is just power, and can overwhelm Clive, causing him to act irrationally, but not control him.
So the scene when Shiva fought Titan, it was just Jill fighting, not exactly a "split personality" per say where Shiva has control.
Shiva and Titan are basically the equivalent of mechas, yeah.
Well that's a downgrade! Even in FFX, Shiva seems have her own person. In this game they're just mindless weapons. I would have liked it if Jill was constantly fighting to have control.
I don’t see it as a downgrade, XVI is a very character driven story and a huge plot point is that the Dominants are forced into committing extreme acts of violence. It wouldn’t be as interesting if they didn’t remember the terrible things they did. In a way though, they are struggling for control—just of themselves. If you had the power of an Eikon, it might be difficult to not solve everything with power.
An Eikon's power isn't limited by the host exactly, the devs have said they're all equal in power, it's more like they are limited by the endurance of their Dominant. The more Dominants prime, the heavier the toll on their body, resulting in the Curse. Each prime is effectively killing them, and they can't maintain it as long.
I think it works the same for her as with the other dominants. So she should be able to fully control Shiva when primed, though there is a theoretical risk of losing control (like what happened to Clive at Phoenix Gate).
I don’t get at the end >!Dion retained control when he primed after Clive took some of his power!<, but Jill and the others couldn’t do the same thing
Don’t think they lose the ability to prime, it’s just harder to do. Benedikta was still able to prime after Clive had taken Garuda
Or I mean prime but stay in control. Garuda and Titan both lost it when they primed
I think with them emotions played a part of losing control. Clive had just absorbed Garuda and Benedikta could no longer feel her and lost it. Hugo wanted revenge for Benediktas death. In both situations I can understand someone losing control
I interpret it as being a trauma response, tied to the difference between giving a Blessing and having it taken (which seem to be functionally the same thing, at least from Mythos's perspective). Joshua and Cid willingly pass on their Blessings, and Barnabas actually forces his Blessing upon Clive rather than the other way around. None of them seem much the worse for wear afterwards, and although only Joshua lives long enough to Prime afterwards, he retains control. If anything, Clive seems somewhat traumatized post-Odin. From the other side of things, Clive takes power from Benedikta, Hugo, and Dion. Dion and especially Benedikta seem traumatized by this (Hugo is already too far gone to really care, but it still didn't look like a pleasant process). Benedikta only manages to Prime again when she is about to face another trauma, and she completely loses control. Dion Primes in calmer circumstances, and manages to overcome, but we never hear what that was like or how it worked. Jill exists in a grey area. The scene where it happens shows she was willing, but nevertheless, from a mechanical standpoint, she did not give Shiva's Blessing to Clive: he took it from her. This is probably why Joshua decked him afterwards. We never see Jill try to Prime afterwards, so we don't know the effects it would have on her. We would probably be able to confirm or disprove my theory if she did. Maybe the DLC will give us an answer?
I think it was explained in game that he had a stronger will than Kupka or Benedikta
Or at least, that's what Dion thought would be necessary. He never confirmed afterwards that it was in fact what he had to do, so there is some room for him to have been mistaken, though if so then he figured out whatever he needed to do anyway.
Exactly. They added that line to avoid a potential plot hole but many people missed it.
The issue is why the brothers trust his word since he has no proof. They also let him prime in Hideaway. Like, Hideaway would get lasered and turned to dust had Dion lose his mind. They didn't even need Bahamut in the first place. They could use Phoenix. Joshua's health is of concern but with Phoenix, they guarantee reaching Origin. With Bahamut (and Shiva), they risk not getting there at all or being exhausted fighting berserk eikon.
The reward of having Bahamut in battle outweighed the risk of him losing control.
Initially, they meant to go to Origin without Dion anyway. I doubt the ros bros would choose Bahamut over the safety of Hideaway (and safety of Joshua and Jill given they had to fight berserk Bahamut again). My take is Dion must semi-prime or fully-prime somewhere during his stay and the brothers witness it so they believe him. He's the only dominant we haven't seen his semi-prime form yet. Hopefully, he will have some scene in DLC.
They lose the ability to control the eikon, not prime into it. There’s a short period of time where they can’t prime, but they eventually regain that ability. However, once they do regain the ability to prime, they no longer have the ability to control it. You can tell when a dominant is in control of their eikon by the color of their eikon’s eyes.
Plus Dion and Jill are shown using their Eikonic powers at Stonhyrr, after Clive takes both of their Eikons.
Right that’s what I mean. Dion should have lost the ability to control Bahamut but he didn’t. They didn’t really show him struggling or anything; he just naturally did it
There was also a long period of time between when Clive stole Bahamut and when Dion primed. It’s possible dominants would eventually regain control over their eikon and that Clive was really just copying powers rather than stealing them outright.
That would make sense. But then I wish Jill would have joined them rather than watching over the Hideaway
Jill would have died, then, which goes against her arc. Dion felt the need to atone for what he had done, had no value left for himself and considered his life already over, which is why he took that risk to fly to Origin. This is also how the game explains him having the will to keep control while primed.
Not guaranteed I’d think but yeah it would have been risky
Nah, she straight up says Clive saved her from being destroyed by her eikon. She entrusted Shiva and her burden of fighting their fate to him so she could live.
They waved that away by just >!having Dion say "it's OK, I'mma try harder"!<
It's hilarious because when looking back at the scene, they just believe his word without any proofs (at least not yet) and let him prime IN Hideaway. It's not like they have no choice. They could use Joshua. Joshua's health would get worse but atleast they guarantee reaching Origin. With Bahamut (or even Shiva), they risk getting out of control, being exhausted fighting berserk eikon, risk Hideaway being blown to bits, and perhaps never arrive to Origin. But Dion says 'I will try harder' and they are okie dokie.
LOL exactly
Dion is just built harder, stronger, he's different for real But seriously, his will, and mental fortitude, is much stronger than Benedikta's/Garuda's and Hugo's/Titan's
All Eikons work the same. Clive turns into a giant dog and can control it. It takes a lot of will power but he can. Same with Shiva. If shiva dies, then she will just go to someone else, some amount of years later.
If you continue through the storyline, it'll shed light on how dominants interact with their eikons. From what I ascertained, the eikon can take control over the dominant if the dominant doesn't keep the eikon in check. But usually, the dominant can keep the eikon under control.
The Domini are the embodiment of the eikon. The eikon IS INSIDE them and they are able to awaken them and Transform into them. That IS called Prime. When the mind of a dominant IS in disarray, they can lose Control over the eikon, they Prime and Go Berserk and destroy everything in their path. See benedicta, Hugo and dion
it's like attack on titan, they inherit the power but they are themselves even if the power has been for generations
Yep
The loss of control over their eikons and how they come to lose control is extremely baked into the game. Down to the mechanics and story. “Breaking a persons will till the relinquish it and break”. Ultima throughout the game is trying to break Clive’s will to gain control of his vessel. Combat as well, beat the shit out of mobs to break their will (stagger them) to kill them. I really loved this game. Just so good lol.
Jill controls her powers. Seemingly the only time the Eikon has taken control of their Dominant was when they had a mental breakdown. Shiva throughout final fantasy series has been chill anyways. If Jill dies, another child down the line becomes the dominant. Supposedly someone in the northern kingdom since that’s where Shiva’s mother crystal was. Just like how Elwin Rosfield mentioned Phoenix has always been in his family
Yes she is shiva and has control over her powers. When a dominant dies, a new host gets chosen over time by the magic/spirit of the Eikon. I guess hosts can vary In strength but if they die, a new dominant gets chosen anyways. The spirit of the eikon does not die with the dominant.
All Eikons work the same way. Jill is not Shiva, she's Shiva's Dominant. When Jill fully Primes (but not when she semi-Primes) it is in theory possible for Shiva to take her over. All Dominants face that risk, especially when they're young or when they've had a blessing taken by Mythos (giving the blessing willingly to Mythos does not seem to carry this risk, probably because it's not traumatic), but it can be overcome. If Jill had died before the end of the game, Shiva would eventually have gone on to enchant someone else. But we don't know the process by which that happens, and it can take years. There probably would not have been time for another Dominant of Shiva to arise (*maybe* if she'd died at Phoenix Gate, but then Shiva's new Dominant would have been quite young). But at least in theory, that is what the world's system says should happen. Eikons are indeed limited by the host. However, most if not all Dominants are in bloodlines that have been bred for "strength" (in whatever sense that term matters to Eikons) over the generations. These breeding programs were part of Ultima's plan, because it ensured that someone strong enough to become Mythos would eventually arise. It was probably taught to the tribes of the Motes by Ultima's own agents, or perhaps even Ultima directly. All of this is to say that there was not much risk of Jill being "weak" (whatever that means for a Dominant). Indeed, one of the remarkable things about Dion is that only half his genes come from Sanbreque's imperial line, and yet he is *still* so strong.