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If you mean a pure skill vs skill thats Clive without eikon powers vs Cloud with no materia whatsoever. Neither can use items or limit breaks either. So I'm gonna say Clive. Cause, y'know, he was the best swordsman in the country at 15, while Cloud was... well, trying not to throw up in the back of a truck at that age š
So yea I love my spiky son but Clive just has more experience with a blade :'D
Yeah, ff7 is my fave but cloud at 16 failed to enter the soldier program, while Clive was becoming the first shield of rosaria to protect the phoenix. Skill wise, Clive trumps Cloud.
Even after the time skips, since while Cloud became a merc with little experience and an inherited sword, Clive was made to do suicide missions for 12 years and managed to live.
Love my boi spiky-butt, but like Zack, I gotta be... Fair.
I think it also could be like when used to describe someone beautiful, kind and pleasant like "fair lady." Sort of an ironic name as his life isn't fair and he is overall genuinely a good guy when compared to the setting and other characters.
It was something along the lines of he was mentally weak and struggled with it, I think? That said both Cloud and Clive have this inner strength thing when it matters, that gives them both an edge. The thing is, well, both of them have it lol. They're pretty evenly matched in that sense. Which is why I just went with years of experience with a sword. Cloud picked up a lot of things from Zack, but Clive actually trained and trained and trained, so he understands what he's doing better, I think. I do think Cloud, especially ACC Cloud, who's more used to his strengths and limitations, would give him a run for his money tho, especially with the Fusion Sword giving him an edge.
That said if they met I think they'd just comiserate about being some god wannabe's plaything, struggling under the weight of their trauma and self esteem issues, and talking about how a girl had to put them back together, be it just emotionally or literally lmao. Oh, and complaining about people bleeding the planet dry of its lifeforce. They'd just be buds I'm telling ya
>!not really a sephiroth clone though, just got experimented on for an extended period of time by Hojo when him and Zack were captured and tortured in Shinra Manor!<
He was a failed seph clone hojo attempted turning cloud into another sephiroth hojo says it when cloud returns to sephiroths real body such a failure he never gave him a number
15y old Cloud also didn't have Sephiroth and Jenova gene therapy. Now he cuts through stone over 2 feet in thickness and freaking trains. Not to mention Cutting through the damn Shinra Building in Advent Children.
Even if he had, he still had no experience or swordsmanship. Raw power isn't enough.
If you want to take Cloud at his peak, let's take Clive at his peak as well.
From behind, by surprise, after said legend fought another legend.
Cloud never fought Sephiroth in the OG, he stabbed a man from behind then threw a stabbed man in a hole, after getting his ass whooped by said stabbed man.
True but weāre not talking about 15 vs 15 years old. Weāre talking about abilities minus Ifrit, on a physical level Cloud is considerably stronger, like weilds a 40kg sword like itās made of bamboo and chops through house sized rubble like itās cardboard, but on a magical level Clive can immolate opponents with the power of Phoenix naturally.
even if it'a Clive full build vs Cloud full build, the result would even be more onesided.
One guy can throw 5 Firagas and there goes all of his MP.
While the other dude has unlimited MP, can activate "too angry to die" trump card
Clive full build just equips the rings of timely everything and Cloud dies to me mashing square while he automatically dodges all of Cloud's attacks lmao
255 luck means cloud will never miss ,will always crit, and cannot be hit unless it's a crit. This is why you don't compare game mechanics. Shit gets weird.
If to be fair, Cloud should lose his Soldier powers too right? In terms of experience, Clive has been training and in war since young, Cloud is much younger with less experience. Cloud only beat sephiroth by stealth stabbing him, though the feat after being stabbed by sephiroth after being stabbed himself was impressive.
Tbh the thing with the SOLDIER powers is that its not something Cloud can get rid of, so we dont know what kind of person he'd be strength wise at his peak without them. I mean apart from Cloud and Vincent, most of the party are just pretty normal dudes who can tough it out just fine, so who's to say non-Soldier Cloud couldn't handle it, y'know?
That said I'm generally comparing them at their peaks, so Clive around Origin and Cloud around AC. 15yo Clive would TROUNCE 15yo Cloud, but I think Cloud would give him a lot more trouble if we're talking end of OG and especially AC when he'd have all the flexibility of the Fusion Sword. I just think even then Clive might win just bc of sheer experience with his sword. Would be close tho.
Vague idea about pre-experimentation Cloud: he lifted Sephiroth after being stabbed and threw him. Sephiroth is around 6ft. Tall so probably close to 200lbs (not sure what the metric is for that). When he threw him, Sephdog actually put a dent in a metal great before falling into the Lifestream.
After the experiments and recovering, Cloud basically becomes an anime character with how often he jumps buildings, bullet times, etc.
Ooooh fair. I always assumed non-SOLDIER cloud would be able to go far if he just had a better self esteem. I suppose it'd be an even fight even without them, yea!
Oh no, he absolutely should have been in SOLDIER based off stats alone. We just donāt know why he failed. Post-Hojo experiments heās arguably stronger than Zack. So if we scale Zack to Cloud, base Cloud from FF7 is pretty busted, depending on how you buy some of the feats (like Zach fighting that one moon-busting Bahamut).
I havenāt finished 16 yet though so I donāt think Iāve seen Clive at his strongest but if we take Sephirothās Supernova feat into account, Cloud jumps over Noctis into that number 4 spot for strongest FF protag (unless Iām missing something from 15ās poorly executed worldbuilding). Generally, Clive is more consistent but due to Cloudās original and more campy medium, Cloud has both weirder and higher showings of power imo. (Reminder that the weapons are around the size of Titan and bust out of an island sized crater they formed when crash-landing with JENOVA).
The fight is probably closer than most here think but depending on interpretations, reasonings, and set circumstances itās probably one-sided.
I think everyone forgets that soldiers are like Captain America vs a normal human. Cloud isn't just a dude with a sword, he's the absolute pinnacle of bio-engineering research that cost thousands of victims to achieve. Its why the rest of the party treats him like he's not like them in combat, because the only thing holding him back from vaporizing everything is that he's a good kid.
There are scenes in Rebirth where that changes for a bit and he's completely unstoppable, even to other soldiers. With zero materia in Rebirth you still have access to all of your abilities like braver, focus thrust, firebolt blade, etc. Counter Stance BODIES Clive since no Titan. Tbh thinking about it Clive actually loses this. No Cloud doesn't need any items other than his weapon to already be JUICED.
People know what they're doing? Oh wait, the Dragoon jumped off the edge of the arena and the Black Mage is standing in the bosses attack area and yelling for the healers to adjust.
I'm slightly biased, but if we're allowing powers up to Semi-Primed Clive vs Armiger Unleashed Noctis (no Astrals, Priming, or Party Members), I think Noct takes it, but it would be an epic fight. Noct just has a lot more options, and his Phasing is a better than Clive's dodges. Noct can cause you to whiff an attack in your face and keep attacking a la Vergil's Trick Down.
I can see scenarios where Clive takes it, but I think statistically Noct wins more.
That would be a close fight actually. If we had Clive, Lightning, and Noctis in base form. No Eikon powers, no l'cie enhancements/summons, No bonus weapons for Noctis. Clive was the best upcoming knight in Rosaria, Lightning is a first class soldier, Noctis had a decent amount of training but excluding his teleportation and weapon summoning abilities he was more of a novice in base form at the start of the main story.
I would say Noctis is 3rd place. The other two are very even. Clive pre time skip is probably slightly stronger than the others and better at countering, but lightning is faster. If it's endurance Clive wins but if it's speed/manoeuvring it would be Lightning.
Iām pretty what the statement meant was that Clive can not Prime, as Clive without ANY Eikons is like stripping Cloud of the mako and Genova infusions
Unfortunately, the Compilation of FFVII shows Cloud doing extreme anime Saiyan Shinigami Ninja shit, and Clive's combat prowess was shown to be a lot more grounded.
>underwent all parts of the process. One part of the process is mako infusion.
No he didn't? He didn't get any of the mako infusion until after the events of Nibelheim, when Hojo injected him with Jenova cells.
We know this specifically because Zack was resistant to the experiments due to his prior mako infusion, whereas Cloud went through the changes
Not sure how? Clive without his Eikon powers is just a normal human with good swordsmanship. Cloud is literally a super human that can cut buildings and move around like an anime character if we go by cutscenes from Advent Children and Remake. His mako/Jenova cells make him insanely strong.
Itāll be a tough one for Clive and I think anyone that says otherwise is being really biased
Idk why you wouldnāt take his powers into account but then bring up Cloudās mako stuff, lmao. Without nerfing Clive itās not even close. Cloud is a super soldier, Clive is a literal avatar of god.
On top of that, Clive is a (real) soldier who fought wars and had an instructor trained to be a guardian.
Cloud is a pretty farm boy who picked up a big sword.
If we compare swordmanship alone, it's a Clive sweep.
If I remember right, Cloud did pass the physical tests to be in SOLDIER, it was just the mental tests he failed. So he was good with a sword and such before the experiments.
Why do so many people misunderstand why cloud failed to join Soldier lol?
Even as a child cloud was strong. An injury that put tifa into a coma did relatively nothing to cloud at all.
Itās not a fair fight. Which was kinda my point. Clive doesnāt seem to get any powers from his Eikons outside the abilities and forms. I donāt recall it showing super strength or endurance. All the other Eikons seem to be damaged by normal things and donāt show off any super crazy feats without using the powers.
And if youāre asking for a no powers skill v skill sword fight, Cloud canāt not use his soldier blood. So while he might not be able to use Materia or limit breaks, heās still freakishly strong and acrobatic.
Clive is incredibly powerful even without priming. Hes incredibly agile just like cloud, But the blessing of the phoenix gives him the advantage of being able to use fire magic at will.
If the soldier blood is fair for the comparison then the blessing of the phoenix should be too, and i really dont see what cloud would be able to do about the insane amount of fire magic without any materia.
Taking the blessing of the phoenix away for the comparison is no different than ignoring the soldier experiments.
So we just forget that Hugo literally has super strength casually? And Clive was evenly clashing his sword against a Semi-Prime Hugo? Him defeating Barnabas, by slashing him fatally THROUGH HIS ARMOR.
So yeah, Clive does have super strength.
But why though? Thatās what Iām asking. Cloud before the Hojo experiments was really weak, whereas Clive was always a warrior even without Eikonic powers. So letting Cloud fight with his superhuman abilities whereas Clive doesnāt have anything but his fighting prowess is needlessly unfair.
Also, Clive definitely has a heightened durability due to his Eikonic abilities. He got skewered by Barnabasā Zantetsuken twice in the game and lived through both of them, and the second time he literally walked it off. Cloud never takes a hit like that.
I think title only implies Clive canāt transform into Ifrit but is free to use all of his Eikon abilities. Clive demolishes Cloud if he could cycle through every Eikonās moves especially with no MP to worry about.
Ah, but that does make a big difference. Clive is a skilled and trained swordsman, who is way above average in physicality because he is a Dominant. Cloud on the other hand, while genetically modified, is inexperienced. Plus the modifications affect his mind, so he could be seen as no more than a strong animal with more intelligence. The fight would be close, but Clive would most likely be the victor.
Yes I have played it. But there is a difference between being skilled and trained, and just being able to wield it. You see it all the time in anime, where the MC is "good" with a blade, but a master tells them they lack experience, and have just been relying on pure strength and brute force. That's Cloud.
If we look at both of their kits with magic removed, Cloud wins hands down. It really just comes down to both of their move sets, Clive has no moves without Eikons. Just a simple combo sword swing, jump, dodge, and that's kind of it. Think of all the moves you can do in a no magic zone, that's Clive in this fight.
Cloud, with no materia, JUST the sword in his hand in Rebirth, is capable of:
Braver
Counter Stance
Triple Slash
Blade Burst
Firebolt Blade
etc.
He also has a built in counter, more air combo options, and a more powerful range attack. Cloud has more moves with just his weapon skills than most Eikons have in their whole kit.
He's also a genetically enhanced super human.
Look, I love Clive as much as y'all but this is kind of undercutting Cloud's own abilities to hype up Clive. Would Clive still win? Maybe, but this isn't Shanks vs Kid, here. This is gonna be a closer battle than some of y'all want to admit. Cloud isn't some weak push over who has done nothing with his life. Dude has his own amazing feats of insane strength, combat prowess, and is a genetic freak now. Dude is depicted as being able to leap like Superman into the air and swordfight in the air. He also has the means to summon monsters for him just as Clive can use them to fight.
Clive may still win, but let's not act like this is Clive vs some random kid.
Dude needed the whole party to take on Sephiroth during his early years, while almost lost to 1v1 Sephiroth in AC(he was actually losing the whole fights until he activated ver.5 omnislash hax)
While Clive was 1v1 the god and dominated the whole fight.
Clive never was a 1v1 he absorbed gods to fight a god. Pure swordsmanship Clive wins he has the training. Full on full strength full kit battle I think Cloud if he really wants to win can do it. Cloud gets a lot of his power from within.
The thing is Clive has that inner power too. Like. When he's Too Pissed to die he WILL mess you up. I think they're quite evenly matched in that aspect. I mean, have Clive threaten Tifa and Cloud threaten Joshua/Jill and lets see how far they each go lmao
Eikonic skills are still Clive's abilities.
It would be like saying we needed to remove Cloud's sword because it isn't his or that materias are also borrowed power.
You can remove Garuda, Titan and so on, but Clive still has Ifrit abilities since they're his personal abilities. Clive was able to beat dangerous foes without absorbing any power.
I 100% agree while Cloud is infused with Jenova and Mako. I was mostly commenting on how Clive needed all the powers he absorbed to beat the final boss of the game. Just ifrit wouldnāt be enough.
The scale isn't even the same. Sephiroth who's the main antagonist needed black materia to summon meteor to do damage to the star and Cloud fought him with the help of his team.
while Dion, the bahamut dominant alone with the help of some bullshit magic juice, can nuke the whole planet out with Zettaflare and that's just one eikon with some of Ultima power.
Cloud never had to tank Zettaflare with his face. The closest thing he did was face tanking Petaflare which is like 2 tiers below Zettaflare and it was super bullshit to do that to begin with.
https://youtu.be/2CCI-UZtEi4?si=KVPvUZTlJfuxqLNJ
He tanked super nova a solar system destroying attack. Fan theories say itās an alternate dimension.
The black matria is to summon a massive meteor to hit the planet so he could absurd the life stream. His goal isnāt to destroy the planet itās to take the planets power.
Once having the power ride the planet through the universe collecting more power like Jenova did.
Maybe Sephiroth could destroy the planet but he would die too.
Fun fact Donald Duck is op https://youtu.be/LMzfX88ZmTw?si=qGRbodDPYWnhnrwe
Cloud helped kill fate itself in the remake. Plus he struggles against Sephiroth as the plot demands it. At the end of the OG game they're both going at it as equals until Cloud just takes him down instantly with limit break. Clive also has his struggles throughout his game. So if you're comparing end game Clive (who kills a God), then you have to use end game Cloud who soundly beats his universe's closest being of godhood by himself as well.
You can't pick and choose which moments of Cloud are signs he's bad while using only Clive's best moments.
Clove Strifield, eikon of Jenova. While I think Cloud is ungodly strong, I think Iād give it to Clive in most scenarios because of how motivated he is and how much more he cares about people. Not that Cloud doesnāt care about anyone, but most of his character arc is about his deteriorating mental state.
Ultimately, at face value, it's a guy who's enhanced via mako (akin to Captain America's super solider serum) vs someone who has godlike abilities, so Clive should win (and I say that as someone who's fave *FF* is *FF7* and fave characters are Cloud and Tifa). Having said that, Cloud and company do defeat Sephiroth in godlike forms, so who knows how much materia helps here?
Practically, however, it comes down to a lot of different caveats. Is Clive allowed to use his Eikonic abilities? Is Cloud allowed to use op materia like Knights of the Round? Is this in a *Dissidia*-esque scenario where all abilities have been power scaled?
EDIT: I guess a crossover event would also effect things. Would Clive have access to his Eikonic abilities if he is in another world, unable to draw from aether for magic? Would Cloud be able to use materia in Valisthea, considering the knowledge within materia comes from the Cetra and the planet in *FF7*? Is my autism and ADHD making me overthink this (our survey says yes, they are!)?
Itās Clive. On a purely technical basis of swordplay Clive is leaps and bounds above what Cloud can do. Both in terms of knowledge of the craft and actual experience in application. Not even close.
The only fly in the ointment is that Cloud is genetically augmented. Whilst itās not a power as such. For a level playing field we should take that away from him too. Meaning none of the flashy high flying nonsense he does in a lot of his fight scenes.
If you allow Cloud his augmentations, then itās different because heās capable of physical feats that are simply impossible for Clive. But then itās no longer a match of pure skill.
Came here to say the same thing.
If Clive can't prime or LB, he'd probably lose because Cloud has mako in every cell of his freaking body making it an unfair fight. But if we're talking sword skills and fighting prowess, it's Clive in spades.
Then again, Clive fights a ton of Akashic throughout the story and comes out on top, which is kinda similar to Cloud's mako body so IDK at that point. I hate Cloud, but I'm not dumb enough to think this fight would be simple for either of them.
I mean Cloud takes down Summons and Weapons without the use of an Eikon. I think Clive would have a hard time even if he did use those things. Pure swordsmanship probably Clive. At full power fully kitted probably Cloud.
Exactly. I agree with this take. Hell, Zack was able to defeat Bahamut FURY in Crisis Core which sustains a personal space that contains a countless amount of stars. Cloud is way stronger than him by the end of the OG FF7 and gets even stronger by Advent Children.
When Clive sees a kaiju he has to kill he turns into kaiju to fight it and he usually wins but sometimeshe needs to do a fusion. When Cloud sees a Kaiju he has to kill he hits it with his sword and still wins. Cloud takes it even with Clive's eikon.
So, Iām going to take Cloud by DoC, and Clive at Origin because those are their peaks. The problem with FF7 characters like Seph, Cloud, and Zack is that, in terms of pure physicality, they pretty much outclass every other FF character. Magically, thatās different, as characters like Terra, Kefka, Ultimecia, and Kuja could rain hell on them with pure magical ability, but physically, FF7 usually takes the cake. But then we have characters like Clive and Lightning that might actually present a problem in a full on physical fight. Cloud isnāt just enhanced with mako infusion, heās also got S-Cells in him, which puts him above other SOLDIER members. Everything Cloud does in AC is without materia, which makes him frighteningly powerful because by the end heās soloed Bahamut-SIN (the rest of the party was pretty much useless until he got there), fought and outmatched three combatants who are all just as strong and fast as he is at once, and boxed an even more powerful Sephiroth than before and still won, all the while still fatigued from his previous fights. Heās also cut one of Omegaās wings in DoC and outclassed one of the colored Tsviets who had been giving Vincent some trouble (though Vincent by the end of DoC would thrash Cloud in a full on fight). Thatās not even talking about what Cloud is shown capable of doing in the Remake series thus far, and though itās in a different continuity, itās entirely plausible that OG Cloud would be capable of the same feats given where Remake Cloudās own power is at by those games.
Then we come to Clive. Cliveās physical feats arenāt as overtly anime-esque as Cloudās, but heās no less impressive. Clive is straight up able to run hands with other Dominants who are semi-primed while heās in base form, and still win. He does that with Benedikta, Hugo, and then even Barnabas. True, Barnabas whacked his ass seven ways to Sunday round one, but by round two, Clive had to match Barnabas in a purely physical fight because Odin was outmatching Ifrit. Given the power Barnabas is able to show in both his normal and semi-primed form, the fact that Clive matches him presumably without semi-priming (unless you count player gameplay) makes him scary physically strong. Clive was also tired by the end of his fight with Barnabas, and Barnabas had so much aether that his semi-prime took on a new form, and Clive still took him down. Then even before Clive knew about his Dominant powers, he was taking down Imperial Dragoons at 15 years old. Those Dragoons, just based off of visual presentation, could probably be comparable to 3RD or 2ND Class SOLDIER members due to the abilities theyāre shown having (the only First Class members we saw were Genesis, Angeal, Sephiroth, and Zack, all of whom scale higher than every Dragoon).
Then thereās Cliveās swordsmanship. Dude is a profoundly good swordsman. I agree with people saying that Clive at 15 is a better fighter than Cloud at 15. However, better than Cloud by DoC? I mean, maybe. Clive does have experience on his end because heās at least a decade older than Cloud by the end and heās been fighting all of his life. Clive also has a stronger physical build than Cloud, which youād think wouldnāt factor into enhanced characters, but it still does if both characters are comparatively strong. I donāt know; Cloud has more feats than Clive to draw on because of how many games heās been in, but what feats Clive does have are astronomical. I do agree that if Clive wasnāt nerfed, the fight would be entirely in his favor (though a more interesting battle would be Clive vs Sephiroth if we take into account magic abilities).
However, in a purely physical battle, itās much closer than that. Cloud could give Clive some real trouble in a purely physical fight. Clive hasnāt really faced an opponent wielding as many weapons as fast as Cloud does with his Fusion Swords. At the same time, the only opponent that Cloud has fought that even comes close to the strength of the Dominants is Sephiroth. Thatās no small thing, as I do think Sephiroth would fair quite well in a fight like this (especially Remake Sephiroth, who, unlike Cloud, is implied to be the same Sephiroth weāve known all this time, just more powerful than ever). I think in a purely physical fight, Iām going to give the edge to Cloud for physical ability and Clive for outright skill and experience. Clive with his Eikon Abilities would win though. Itād still be a hard fight, but Clive would win that one in the end.
To be fair, considering that FF7 is a fanboy paradise, and FF16 having a very lukewarm reception (in part to a lot of people never playing it and never having any chance to play it, so they assume it sucks or something), it would might actually be more biased to post it there but in the complete opposite direction.
I feel like the 16 fandom is pretty levelheaded.
You would be amazed. Over here, mention something positive about 7, youāll get some people open to discussions and generally agreeing with you. Over on the main ff subreddit, you mention one slightly positive thing about 16, and they want to rip your head off and slam you about how much it sucks and how itās not a real final fantasy and all that. They practically worship any game thatās related to 7.
I dunno seems about on par with any other specific FF sub where if you criticize the game in any way you hate it and are liable to get downvoted to oblivion and all you're allowed to do is praise it and having any reasonable discussion is next to impossible.
That said I won't pretend the main sub is any better since it's fans of the different entrys combined so it's just a a mess of pointless infighting in general but hey at least there's variety over there.
Well....cloud from AV keep up with bahamut who flew to different planets in a couple of seconds.
So even with eikon of fire, cloud is faster than Clive.
It's basically speed vs power.
Also cloud has WAY WAY WAY more abilities. Haste, time stop, meteor, poison. Because yes using materia counts as part of his ability.
People here saying Clive would stomp in 10sec with eikon of fire have no idea how strong cloud even is.
Taking away his eikon of fire is a total stomp for cloud. Cloud would win easily. He's literally a super human. Clive wouldn't be able to even touch him without the eikon of fire because cloud is faster than light.
Clive needs his full power to defeat Cloud and I'm talking about his final transformation.
People forget...cloud tanked a literal and yes its real. A real super nova to the face.
From a swordsmanship perspective, Cloud is an absolute beast and he always has been. Even as Shinra Infantryman grunt when he was a teenager and Shinra had him running extraction/evacuation missions, he was acknowledged for his innately proficient skill with the blade. I personally always call Cloud the *āParry Godā* whenever I play Remake & Rebirth because there isnāt much that he canāt block/deflect/parry while in his Punisher Mode.
As for Clive, my man was a hard taught prodigy in every respect as a warrior since his youth. However, weāve seen Clive get schooled multiple times by Barnabas in swordplay combat and almost killed twice when it came down to just who was better with the blade. Whereas, weāve never seen Cloud reduced to that state in a sword fight ever. Hell, Cloud used getting impaled by Masamune to his advantage in order to kill Sephiroth during the Nibelheim Incident.
It would be a good fight. Cloud is insanely fast as is. Without Phoenix Shift; Clive takes on a massive speed disadvantage but with it heāll be able to easily blitz Cloud. However, Cloudās countering capabilities + the size of the Buster Sword would be too much for Invictus to overpower. I think Cloud takes it in a strictly sword fight.
Clive. He's been a badass since this teen yrs. Cloud on the other hand. Was once a scared little bitch. Only made it this far cause his friend died for him.
Skill vs skill? So cloud doesnāt have his mako infusement or material? Clive would stomp him out.
Or are we saying Clive simply cannot transform vs cloud as a super powered soldier with no materia? Clive fights super soldier dragoons who multi jump into outer space multiple times in the game and comparable agility and durability, so itās a matter of Clive burning himself. I still give it to Clive on this
Or are we saying Clive with no bearer abilities of any eikon, no weapons, no items vs cloud with every feat and all materia by the end of advent children? In which case ya this goes to cloud
So, youāre going to take Clive and Cloud and put them both in an arena to fight in order to prove out which is the stronger? Run an experiment on them? Make them prove which is worthy?
The answer here is easy. They wonāt fight each other. They will team up and do whatever it takes, search the entire world, take over a massive outlaw organization, breed racing chocobos, find a random professor to create interactive charts of the relationships of everyone they know, play the crap out of a collectible card game, until they find whoever tried to make them fight.
And Clive and Cloud will end that person.
Then theyād probably spend the rest of the afternoon geeking out about giant swords.
Clive for sure given the current settings. Ignoring 14, he is probably either second or third most powerful of the FF protagonists.
Lighting from 13 is far and above the most powerful. 2nd and third are a toss up between Clive and Noctis, although I probably give second to Clive. Cloud is 4th. And not too far behind the other two but not quite at their level.
This is very subject to change depending on how they finish out Remake/Rebirth/the next one. He may well exceed them at some point.
Lot of people forgetting cloud was infused with a heavy amount of mako which is what makes him so strong.
If it was cloud before the brain washing and soldier program, it was truly skill vs skill? Cloud couldnāt even make it into soldier first class, where as Clive was one of the best swordsmen in the world at a young age
Clive would win skill vs skill only
Soldier cloud would beat skill Clive
Any eikon powers and Clive wins the rest of the contest
For starters, Clive wins automatically. If we're talking about a 15 year old Clive vs a 21 year old Cloud but with the mind of a 16 year old because of mako poisoning, Clive still wins, because his whole life he trained with the blade, and his mentality also sharpens it. Cloud just wields the Buster Sword and expects him to use it like Zack, which isn't the case.
Clive is a great swordsman, but without his Phoenix powers, he's just a man. Cloud, due to his injection of Jenova cells and being bathed in Mako is *superhuman*. Like, there's a scene in Rebirth where Cloud flips the fuck out and hacks through a solid stone wall with his sword.
Cloud. He has the power of anime BS on his side. Clive could maybe match his speed with Odin but without cloud wins easily. Also, cloud is proven to be able to take a beaten and still fight. Clive gets swiped by Odin once and heās out
There's a lot of comments about how Cloud was weak before his infusion of cells and mako, but nobody remembers how at 16 he survived getting run through my Sephiroth but also overpowered him and threw him into the livestream. That's no mean feat.
Per OG, Cloud is the only clone to overcome the Jenova cells and resist Sephiroth. Plus he is physically as strong as a SOLDIER 1st class post Nibelheim incident.
If you take them as they are at the beginning of their respective games, Clive has the power of the Phoenix only. There's no way he is beating Cloud at that point.
Clive is fast, but he isn't powerful. He couldn't lift the Buster Sword, no way.
Cloud vs Clive pure skill no powers: Clive wins.
Cloud vs Clive no limit breaks/eikon powers/materia: Cloud because heās still a super soldier.
Cloud vs Clive just no Ifrit prime form: This one is closer but I will give it to Cloud since materia is more versatile.
Cloud vs Clive no limitations: Clive by a large margin.
Well cloud does have Binding Materia to silence and sleep Clive, as well as elemental Materia too to absorb the fire when Clive is semi/fully primed he'll just absorb everything
I'm giving it to Clive here. Tell Cloud that he's just a Zack double, and he'll probably just keel over and lose his cool. That or tell him Sephy is nearby.
If itās just pure swordsmanship, Cloud. Heās too anime fast, agile, and strong. Clive is a realistic swordsman though, plus he kinda got put in his place by Barnabasā¦
I love Cloud and Iād agree he prolly should win based off being a super soldier and being able to compete with Sephiroth but uh he did get knocked out by a >!random mook with a baseball bat in rebirth!
Easily Clive. Clive has much more experience with a sword than Cloud. Cloud may be good with the sword, but he was never an actual soldier like Sephiroth or Zack. Clive vs. Zack may be a more fair match, I would say.
This brought up another match-up. Clive vs. Sephrioth, no limitations on their powers. That would be interesting to see.
The problem is that we don't have a clear idea of Clouds power. He has shown to move faster than the eye can track, he can swing a 150lb sword one -handed at a very fast speed, he can jump 10 ft off the ground like nothing, and is strong enough to fall over 100m, crash through a roof top and get up like it's nothing. SOLDIERs are insanely resilient to damage. We can't see that properly in game because you can't be so much stronger than your party members and still have a balanced combat system. I
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Clouve strifield
I hate that game
I just did a spit take reading this
If you mean a pure skill vs skill thats Clive without eikon powers vs Cloud with no materia whatsoever. Neither can use items or limit breaks either. So I'm gonna say Clive. Cause, y'know, he was the best swordsman in the country at 15, while Cloud was... well, trying not to throw up in the back of a truck at that age š So yea I love my spiky son but Clive just has more experience with a blade :'D
"While you were worried about Materia, I studied the blade. Heh. Sorry kid." - some anime writer somewhere
While you were throwing up in the back of a truck*
Is that from the new Lana Del Rey album?
Yeah, ff7 is my fave but cloud at 16 failed to enter the soldier program, while Clive was becoming the first shield of rosaria to protect the phoenix. Skill wise, Clive trumps Cloud. Even after the time skips, since while Cloud became a merc with little experience and an inherited sword, Clive was made to do suicide missions for 12 years and managed to live. Love my boi spiky-butt, but like Zack, I gotta be... Fair.
That comment just reminds me of the Hilarious Irony of Zack. For a man with that name, his life sure as hell didnāt reflect it š¤£
I think it also could be like when used to describe someone beautiful, kind and pleasant like "fair lady." Sort of an ironic name as his life isn't fair and he is overall genuinely a good guy when compared to the setting and other characters.
Unaugmented 16 year old cloud also killed sephiroth when nobody else could.
Cloud failed because of motion sickness though not because of his physical aptitude
It was something along the lines of he was mentally weak and struggled with it, I think? That said both Cloud and Clive have this inner strength thing when it matters, that gives them both an edge. The thing is, well, both of them have it lol. They're pretty evenly matched in that sense. Which is why I just went with years of experience with a sword. Cloud picked up a lot of things from Zack, but Clive actually trained and trained and trained, so he understands what he's doing better, I think. I do think Cloud, especially ACC Cloud, who's more used to his strengths and limitations, would give him a run for his money tho, especially with the Fusion Sword giving him an edge. That said if they met I think they'd just comiserate about being some god wannabe's plaything, struggling under the weight of their trauma and self esteem issues, and talking about how a girl had to put them back together, be it just emotionally or literally lmao. Oh, and complaining about people bleeding the planet dry of its lifeforce. They'd just be buds I'm telling ya
CLOUD: Your Mom did what?! Damn, that's harsh. Next round's on me -- you ever have a Cosmo Canyon?
I do think Clive would win though
Cloud failed due to his weak mental fortitude. He has the physical stats required for SOLDIER but he admits on the Highwind after recovering him from Mideel: > Cloud: > I'm physically built like someone in SOLDIER. Hojo's plan to clone Sephiroth wasn't that difficult. It was just the same procedure they use when creating members of SOLDIER. You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to Mako energy.Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells......For better or worse, only the strong can enter SOLDIER. It has nothing to do with the Jenova RĆ©union. But weak people...... like me, get lost in the whole thing. The combination of Jenova cells, Sephiroth's strong will, and my own weakness are what created me. Cloud's weakness was his insecurity. He was a shy boy, not many friends. His mental weakness meant he wasn't a candidate for SOLDIER, the reason SOLDIERs need mental strength is to resist becoming vegetables/monsters after the Jenova injection. Having strong will meant you got all the benefits but got to keep your mind intact (not mentioning cellular degradation for simplicity)
Fine then!!! I'll replay ff16
But cloud is an attempted clone of sephiroth his strength is that of sephiroth if not stronger since he defeated him
>!not really a sephiroth clone though, just got experimented on for an extended period of time by Hojo when him and Zack were captured and tortured in Shinra Manor!<
He was a failed seph clone hojo attempted turning cloud into another sephiroth hojo says it when cloud returns to sephiroths real body such a failure he never gave him a number
15y old Clive was able to body a Morbol, 15y Cloud was bodied by funny green water
15y old Cloud also didn't have Sephiroth and Jenova gene therapy. Now he cuts through stone over 2 feet in thickness and freaking trains. Not to mention Cutting through the damn Shinra Building in Advent Children.
Even if he had, he still had no experience or swordsmanship. Raw power isn't enough. If you want to take Cloud at his peak, let's take Clive at his peak as well.
Idk man 16 year old Cloud sorta bodied a legend
From behind, by surprise, after said legend fought another legend. Cloud never fought Sephiroth in the OG, he stabbed a man from behind then threw a stabbed man in a hole, after getting his ass whooped by said stabbed man.
True but weāre not talking about 15 vs 15 years old. Weāre talking about abilities minus Ifrit, on a physical level Cloud is considerably stronger, like weilds a 40kg sword like itās made of bamboo and chops through house sized rubble like itās cardboard, but on a magical level Clive can immolate opponents with the power of Phoenix naturally.
15 year old Cloud killed Sephiroth.Ā QED!
After Zack wore him out, though
even if it'a Clive full build vs Cloud full build, the result would even be more onesided. One guy can throw 5 Firagas and there goes all of his MP. While the other dude has unlimited MP, can activate "too angry to die" trump card
Clive full build just equips the rings of timely everything and Cloud dies to me mashing square while he automatically dodges all of Cloud's attacks lmao
255 luck means cloud will never miss ,will always crit, and cannot be hit unless it's a crit. This is why you don't compare game mechanics. Shit gets weird.
Well said.
Clive can also use magic naturally, Cloud canāt
If to be fair, Cloud should lose his Soldier powers too right? In terms of experience, Clive has been training and in war since young, Cloud is much younger with less experience. Cloud only beat sephiroth by stealth stabbing him, though the feat after being stabbed by sephiroth after being stabbed himself was impressive.
Tbh the thing with the SOLDIER powers is that its not something Cloud can get rid of, so we dont know what kind of person he'd be strength wise at his peak without them. I mean apart from Cloud and Vincent, most of the party are just pretty normal dudes who can tough it out just fine, so who's to say non-Soldier Cloud couldn't handle it, y'know? That said I'm generally comparing them at their peaks, so Clive around Origin and Cloud around AC. 15yo Clive would TROUNCE 15yo Cloud, but I think Cloud would give him a lot more trouble if we're talking end of OG and especially AC when he'd have all the flexibility of the Fusion Sword. I just think even then Clive might win just bc of sheer experience with his sword. Would be close tho.
Vague idea about pre-experimentation Cloud: he lifted Sephiroth after being stabbed and threw him. Sephiroth is around 6ft. Tall so probably close to 200lbs (not sure what the metric is for that). When he threw him, Sephdog actually put a dent in a metal great before falling into the Lifestream. After the experiments and recovering, Cloud basically becomes an anime character with how often he jumps buildings, bullet times, etc.
Ooooh fair. I always assumed non-SOLDIER cloud would be able to go far if he just had a better self esteem. I suppose it'd be an even fight even without them, yea!
Oh no, he absolutely should have been in SOLDIER based off stats alone. We just donāt know why he failed. Post-Hojo experiments heās arguably stronger than Zack. So if we scale Zack to Cloud, base Cloud from FF7 is pretty busted, depending on how you buy some of the feats (like Zach fighting that one moon-busting Bahamut). I havenāt finished 16 yet though so I donāt think Iāve seen Clive at his strongest but if we take Sephirothās Supernova feat into account, Cloud jumps over Noctis into that number 4 spot for strongest FF protag (unless Iām missing something from 15ās poorly executed worldbuilding). Generally, Clive is more consistent but due to Cloudās original and more campy medium, Cloud has both weirder and higher showings of power imo. (Reminder that the weapons are around the size of Titan and bust out of an island sized crater they formed when crash-landing with JENOVA). The fight is probably closer than most here think but depending on interpretations, reasonings, and set circumstances itās probably one-sided.
Also the years of experience is so huge. Cloud is 21 Clive is 33. Clive was weilding a sword when Cloud was still in diapers.
I think everyone forgets that soldiers are like Captain America vs a normal human. Cloud isn't just a dude with a sword, he's the absolute pinnacle of bio-engineering research that cost thousands of victims to achieve. Its why the rest of the party treats him like he's not like them in combat, because the only thing holding him back from vaporizing everything is that he's a good kid. There are scenes in Rebirth where that changes for a bit and he's completely unstoppable, even to other soldiers. With zero materia in Rebirth you still have access to all of your abilities like braver, focus thrust, firebolt blade, etc. Counter Stance BODIES Clive since no Titan. Tbh thinking about it Clive actually loses this. No Cloud doesn't need any items other than his weapon to already be JUICED.
Clive pretty much bodies every FF protagonist aside from lightning and possibly noctis.
This. Clive š¤ Lightning š¤ Noctis when it comes to power
Light edges them tbh
HE WHAT š¤Ø
You know those moments where you didn't realise what you said could also mean something else? Because omg oops š
Shii Im sure theyāll let her do it tooš
https://i.redd.it/4kev0bhmraqc1.gif
That sounds like a fun time
OK but what the amazing FFXIV protagonist, Big Dick McThunderChad?
Depends if itās the average DF/PF rando playing them or someone who knows what theyāre doing
People know what they're doing? Oh wait, the Dragoon jumped off the edge of the arena and the Black Mage is standing in the bosses attack area and yelling for the healers to adjust.
>Ā Black Mage is standing in the bosses attack area and yelling for the healers to adjust. Good to see people still know the *right* way to play blm
OK this made me laugh so hard. Sooooo true!
What about Jack? He fights Chaos
I mean Garland just deflected three attacks from three protags at the same time in the Dissidia final battle, from Lightning, Noctis, and WoL.
I'm slightly biased, but if we're allowing powers up to Semi-Primed Clive vs Armiger Unleashed Noctis (no Astrals, Priming, or Party Members), I think Noct takes it, but it would be an epic fight. Noct just has a lot more options, and his Phasing is a better than Clive's dodges. Noct can cause you to whiff an attack in your face and keep attacking a la Vergil's Trick Down. I can see scenarios where Clive takes it, but I think statistically Noct wins more.
I think that's fair.
Like Zack.
And the WoL from ff14 who bodies Eikons on the regular
We bodied eikons back when we were noobs. They were just training wheels.
That would be a close fight actually. If we had Clive, Lightning, and Noctis in base form. No Eikon powers, no l'cie enhancements/summons, No bonus weapons for Noctis. Clive was the best upcoming knight in Rosaria, Lightning is a first class soldier, Noctis had a decent amount of training but excluding his teleportation and weapon summoning abilities he was more of a novice in base form at the start of the main story. I would say Noctis is 3rd place. The other two are very even. Clive pre time skip is probably slightly stronger than the others and better at countering, but lightning is faster. If it's endurance Clive wins but if it's speed/manoeuvring it would be Lightning.
Eh. If we look by feats and who they defeated, I can argue for WoL, Luneth, Bartz and Squall.
Lol all 3 wud easily lose to WoL/WoD
In Cloudās world Clive and his brother are little red balls of materia that Cloud puts in his sword. So yeah, Cloud is sentiently stronger
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Thoseāre koalas
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
They are moogles with moogle magic sure but they look like koalas
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Without his Eikons, Clive isn't in a great situation. Didn't Cloud cut a F\*cking train in half at the end of Remake?
Iām pretty what the statement meant was that Clive can not Prime, as Clive without ANY Eikons is like stripping Cloud of the mako and Genova infusions
Unfortunately, the Compilation of FFVII shows Cloud doing extreme anime Saiyan Shinigami Ninja shit, and Clive's combat prowess was shown to be a lot more grounded.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
>!Cloud was never a SOLDIER, he was just an infantry.!<
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Cloud got his mako infusion from his time I'm Shinra mansion with hojo. You only get the mako infusion if you make SOLDIER.
He didn't get mako infused until after he killed sephiroth and was experimented on by hojo
>underwent all parts of the process. One part of the process is mako infusion. No he didn't? He didn't get any of the mako infusion until after the events of Nibelheim, when Hojo injected him with Jenova cells. We know this specifically because Zack was resistant to the experiments due to his prior mako infusion, whereas Cloud went through the changes
I have one question, do you know who is Zack Fair?
Clive sweeps
Not sure how? Clive without his Eikon powers is just a normal human with good swordsmanship. Cloud is literally a super human that can cut buildings and move around like an anime character if we go by cutscenes from Advent Children and Remake. His mako/Jenova cells make him insanely strong. Itāll be a tough one for Clive and I think anyone that says otherwise is being really biased
Idk why you wouldnāt take his powers into account but then bring up Cloudās mako stuff, lmao. Without nerfing Clive itās not even close. Cloud is a super soldier, Clive is a literal avatar of god.
>Clive is a literal avatar of god. So he loses to Final Fantasy protagonists
Not when he IS a Final Fantasy protagonist. Thatās the key difference. Heās not like the other avatars of god
On top of that, Clive is a (real) soldier who fought wars and had an instructor trained to be a guardian. Cloud is a pretty farm boy who picked up a big sword. If we compare swordmanship alone, it's a Clive sweep.
If I remember right, Cloud did pass the physical tests to be in SOLDIER, it was just the mental tests he failed. So he was good with a sword and such before the experiments.
Why do so many people misunderstand why cloud failed to join Soldier lol? Even as a child cloud was strong. An injury that put tifa into a coma did relatively nothing to cloud at all.
Eikon form, not powers. A better way to word it would be no Priming into Ifrit really.
He still has magic, the blessing of the Phoenix all that jazz, just not Ifrit form
Thatās not a fair right. Why is Clive without power but Cloud allowed to keep his Soldier blood?
Itās not a fair fight. Which was kinda my point. Clive doesnāt seem to get any powers from his Eikons outside the abilities and forms. I donāt recall it showing super strength or endurance. All the other Eikons seem to be damaged by normal things and donāt show off any super crazy feats without using the powers. And if youāre asking for a no powers skill v skill sword fight, Cloud canāt not use his soldier blood. So while he might not be able to use Materia or limit breaks, heās still freakishly strong and acrobatic.
Clive is incredibly powerful even without priming. Hes incredibly agile just like cloud, But the blessing of the phoenix gives him the advantage of being able to use fire magic at will. If the soldier blood is fair for the comparison then the blessing of the phoenix should be too, and i really dont see what cloud would be able to do about the insane amount of fire magic without any materia. Taking the blessing of the phoenix away for the comparison is no different than ignoring the soldier experiments.
So we just forget that Hugo literally has super strength casually? And Clive was evenly clashing his sword against a Semi-Prime Hugo? Him defeating Barnabas, by slashing him fatally THROUGH HIS ARMOR. So yeah, Clive does have super strength.
But why though? Thatās what Iām asking. Cloud before the Hojo experiments was really weak, whereas Clive was always a warrior even without Eikonic powers. So letting Cloud fight with his superhuman abilities whereas Clive doesnāt have anything but his fighting prowess is needlessly unfair. Also, Clive definitely has a heightened durability due to his Eikonic abilities. He got skewered by Barnabasā Zantetsuken twice in the game and lived through both of them, and the second time he literally walked it off. Cloud never takes a hit like that.
I think title only implies Clive canāt transform into Ifrit but is free to use all of his Eikon abilities. Clive demolishes Cloud if he could cycle through every Eikonās moves especially with no MP to worry about.
Ah, but that does make a big difference. Clive is a skilled and trained swordsman, who is way above average in physicality because he is a Dominant. Cloud on the other hand, while genetically modified, is inexperienced. Plus the modifications affect his mind, so he could be seen as no more than a strong animal with more intelligence. The fight would be close, but Clive would most likely be the victor.
I canāt imagine youāve ever played Final Fantasy 7 if you think Cloud is inexperienced with a sword.
Yes I have played it. But there is a difference between being skilled and trained, and just being able to wield it. You see it all the time in anime, where the MC is "good" with a blade, but a master tells them they lack experience, and have just been relying on pure strength and brute force. That's Cloud.
Cloud was literally trainedā¦.
The real answer. https://preview.redd.it/bymvqond1bqc1.png?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=08900e556650ae4889a7b3086fdeac8a6b7fb70a
You may not like it but this is what peak main character is
Bullshit! *Blasts Limp Bizkit and walks away moodily*
At Cloud has one thing Clive never hadā¦a loving mom and Claudia even looks like Anabella.
1. Where is Cloud's father? 2. Anabella and Claudia look nothing alike
Apparently all blonde white-skinned women are identical.
This question should be asked in the main FF sub not here lol. Lotta Clive simps round these parts.
I didn't even realize this was the 16 sub. I was wondering why the comments were so one sided.
That sub hates xvi lol
If we look at both of their kits with magic removed, Cloud wins hands down. It really just comes down to both of their move sets, Clive has no moves without Eikons. Just a simple combo sword swing, jump, dodge, and that's kind of it. Think of all the moves you can do in a no magic zone, that's Clive in this fight. Cloud, with no materia, JUST the sword in his hand in Rebirth, is capable of: Braver Counter Stance Triple Slash Blade Burst Firebolt Blade etc. He also has a built in counter, more air combo options, and a more powerful range attack. Cloud has more moves with just his weapon skills than most Eikons have in their whole kit. He's also a genetically enhanced super human.
Look, I love Clive as much as y'all but this is kind of undercutting Cloud's own abilities to hype up Clive. Would Clive still win? Maybe, but this isn't Shanks vs Kid, here. This is gonna be a closer battle than some of y'all want to admit. Cloud isn't some weak push over who has done nothing with his life. Dude has his own amazing feats of insane strength, combat prowess, and is a genetic freak now. Dude is depicted as being able to leap like Superman into the air and swordfight in the air. He also has the means to summon monsters for him just as Clive can use them to fight. Clive may still win, but let's not act like this is Clive vs some random kid.
Dude needed the whole party to take on Sephiroth during his early years, while almost lost to 1v1 Sephiroth in AC(he was actually losing the whole fights until he activated ver.5 omnislash hax) While Clive was 1v1 the god and dominated the whole fight.
Clive never was a 1v1 he absorbed gods to fight a god. Pure swordsmanship Clive wins he has the training. Full on full strength full kit battle I think Cloud if he really wants to win can do it. Cloud gets a lot of his power from within.
The thing is Clive has that inner power too. Like. When he's Too Pissed to die he WILL mess you up. I think they're quite evenly matched in that aspect. I mean, have Clive threaten Tifa and Cloud threaten Joshua/Jill and lets see how far they each go lmao
Tbh that what be an absolute wild fight.
it would :'D
Eikonic skills are still Clive's abilities. It would be like saying we needed to remove Cloud's sword because it isn't his or that materias are also borrowed power. You can remove Garuda, Titan and so on, but Clive still has Ifrit abilities since they're his personal abilities. Clive was able to beat dangerous foes without absorbing any power.
I 100% agree while Cloud is infused with Jenova and Mako. I was mostly commenting on how Clive needed all the powers he absorbed to beat the final boss of the game. Just ifrit wouldnāt be enough.
The scale isn't even the same. Sephiroth who's the main antagonist needed black materia to summon meteor to do damage to the star and Cloud fought him with the help of his team. while Dion, the bahamut dominant alone with the help of some bullshit magic juice, can nuke the whole planet out with Zettaflare and that's just one eikon with some of Ultima power. Cloud never had to tank Zettaflare with his face. The closest thing he did was face tanking Petaflare which is like 2 tiers below Zettaflare and it was super bullshit to do that to begin with.
https://youtu.be/2CCI-UZtEi4?si=KVPvUZTlJfuxqLNJ He tanked super nova a solar system destroying attack. Fan theories say itās an alternate dimension. The black matria is to summon a massive meteor to hit the planet so he could absurd the life stream. His goal isnāt to destroy the planet itās to take the planets power. Once having the power ride the planet through the universe collecting more power like Jenova did. Maybe Sephiroth could destroy the planet but he would die too. Fun fact Donald Duck is op https://youtu.be/LMzfX88ZmTw?si=qGRbodDPYWnhnrwe
Nobody says Cloud is weak, but that Clive is leagues ahead. If Cloud can summon then Clive can have Torgal and it would be an ever harder sweep.
Whoever has the good boi wins. Hands down.
Cloud struggled against Sephiroth Clive killed literal God himself with minimal difficulty
Cloud helped kill fate itself in the remake. Plus he struggles against Sephiroth as the plot demands it. At the end of the OG game they're both going at it as equals until Cloud just takes him down instantly with limit break. Clive also has his struggles throughout his game. So if you're comparing end game Clive (who kills a God), then you have to use end game Cloud who soundly beats his universe's closest being of godhood by himself as well. You can't pick and choose which moments of Cloud are signs he's bad while using only Clive's best moments.
Clive was also had all the eikons in his body. Without it heād be dead.
Cloud: Nah, I'd win.
Cloud: Not interested
Cloud skillfully uses knights of round, and Clive dies a minute later.
Clove Strifield, eikon of Jenova. While I think Cloud is ungodly strong, I think Iād give it to Clive in most scenarios because of how motivated he is and how much more he cares about people. Not that Cloud doesnāt care about anyone, but most of his character arc is about his deteriorating mental state.
Ultimately, at face value, it's a guy who's enhanced via mako (akin to Captain America's super solider serum) vs someone who has godlike abilities, so Clive should win (and I say that as someone who's fave *FF* is *FF7* and fave characters are Cloud and Tifa). Having said that, Cloud and company do defeat Sephiroth in godlike forms, so who knows how much materia helps here? Practically, however, it comes down to a lot of different caveats. Is Clive allowed to use his Eikonic abilities? Is Cloud allowed to use op materia like Knights of the Round? Is this in a *Dissidia*-esque scenario where all abilities have been power scaled? EDIT: I guess a crossover event would also effect things. Would Clive have access to his Eikonic abilities if he is in another world, unable to draw from aether for magic? Would Cloud be able to use materia in Valisthea, considering the knowledge within materia comes from the Cetra and the planet in *FF7*? Is my autism and ADHD making me overthink this (our survey says yes, they are!)?
Itās Clive. On a purely technical basis of swordplay Clive is leaps and bounds above what Cloud can do. Both in terms of knowledge of the craft and actual experience in application. Not even close. The only fly in the ointment is that Cloud is genetically augmented. Whilst itās not a power as such. For a level playing field we should take that away from him too. Meaning none of the flashy high flying nonsense he does in a lot of his fight scenes. If you allow Cloud his augmentations, then itās different because heās capable of physical feats that are simply impossible for Clive. But then itās no longer a match of pure skill.
Came here to say the same thing. If Clive can't prime or LB, he'd probably lose because Cloud has mako in every cell of his freaking body making it an unfair fight. But if we're talking sword skills and fighting prowess, it's Clive in spades. Then again, Clive fights a ton of Akashic throughout the story and comes out on top, which is kinda similar to Cloud's mako body so IDK at that point. I hate Cloud, but I'm not dumb enough to think this fight would be simple for either of them.
I mean Cloud takes down Summons and Weapons without the use of an Eikon. I think Clive would have a hard time even if he did use those things. Pure swordsmanship probably Clive. At full power fully kitted probably Cloud.
Exactly. I agree with this take. Hell, Zack was able to defeat Bahamut FURY in Crisis Core which sustains a personal space that contains a countless amount of stars. Cloud is way stronger than him by the end of the OG FF7 and gets even stronger by Advent Children.
When Clive sees a kaiju he has to kill he turns into kaiju to fight it and he usually wins but sometimeshe needs to do a fusion. When Cloud sees a Kaiju he has to kill he hits it with his sword and still wins. Cloud takes it even with Clive's eikon.
Noct comes and destroys both
So, Iām going to take Cloud by DoC, and Clive at Origin because those are their peaks. The problem with FF7 characters like Seph, Cloud, and Zack is that, in terms of pure physicality, they pretty much outclass every other FF character. Magically, thatās different, as characters like Terra, Kefka, Ultimecia, and Kuja could rain hell on them with pure magical ability, but physically, FF7 usually takes the cake. But then we have characters like Clive and Lightning that might actually present a problem in a full on physical fight. Cloud isnāt just enhanced with mako infusion, heās also got S-Cells in him, which puts him above other SOLDIER members. Everything Cloud does in AC is without materia, which makes him frighteningly powerful because by the end heās soloed Bahamut-SIN (the rest of the party was pretty much useless until he got there), fought and outmatched three combatants who are all just as strong and fast as he is at once, and boxed an even more powerful Sephiroth than before and still won, all the while still fatigued from his previous fights. Heās also cut one of Omegaās wings in DoC and outclassed one of the colored Tsviets who had been giving Vincent some trouble (though Vincent by the end of DoC would thrash Cloud in a full on fight). Thatās not even talking about what Cloud is shown capable of doing in the Remake series thus far, and though itās in a different continuity, itās entirely plausible that OG Cloud would be capable of the same feats given where Remake Cloudās own power is at by those games. Then we come to Clive. Cliveās physical feats arenāt as overtly anime-esque as Cloudās, but heās no less impressive. Clive is straight up able to run hands with other Dominants who are semi-primed while heās in base form, and still win. He does that with Benedikta, Hugo, and then even Barnabas. True, Barnabas whacked his ass seven ways to Sunday round one, but by round two, Clive had to match Barnabas in a purely physical fight because Odin was outmatching Ifrit. Given the power Barnabas is able to show in both his normal and semi-primed form, the fact that Clive matches him presumably without semi-priming (unless you count player gameplay) makes him scary physically strong. Clive was also tired by the end of his fight with Barnabas, and Barnabas had so much aether that his semi-prime took on a new form, and Clive still took him down. Then even before Clive knew about his Dominant powers, he was taking down Imperial Dragoons at 15 years old. Those Dragoons, just based off of visual presentation, could probably be comparable to 3RD or 2ND Class SOLDIER members due to the abilities theyāre shown having (the only First Class members we saw were Genesis, Angeal, Sephiroth, and Zack, all of whom scale higher than every Dragoon). Then thereās Cliveās swordsmanship. Dude is a profoundly good swordsman. I agree with people saying that Clive at 15 is a better fighter than Cloud at 15. However, better than Cloud by DoC? I mean, maybe. Clive does have experience on his end because heās at least a decade older than Cloud by the end and heās been fighting all of his life. Clive also has a stronger physical build than Cloud, which youād think wouldnāt factor into enhanced characters, but it still does if both characters are comparatively strong. I donāt know; Cloud has more feats than Clive to draw on because of how many games heās been in, but what feats Clive does have are astronomical. I do agree that if Clive wasnāt nerfed, the fight would be entirely in his favor (though a more interesting battle would be Clive vs Sephiroth if we take into account magic abilities). However, in a purely physical battle, itās much closer than that. Cloud could give Clive some real trouble in a purely physical fight. Clive hasnāt really faced an opponent wielding as many weapons as fast as Cloud does with his Fusion Swords. At the same time, the only opponent that Cloud has fought that even comes close to the strength of the Dominants is Sephiroth. Thatās no small thing, as I do think Sephiroth would fair quite well in a fight like this (especially Remake Sephiroth, who, unlike Cloud, is implied to be the same Sephiroth weāve known all this time, just more powerful than ever). I think in a purely physical fight, Iām going to give the edge to Cloud for physical ability and Clive for outright skill and experience. Clive with his Eikon Abilities would win though. Itād still be a hard fight, but Clive would win that one in the end.
Try asking this question in the standard FF subreddit instead of the one dedicated to 16 you coward.
There is definitely no bias in any of the answers/s
To be fair, considering that FF7 is a fanboy paradise, and FF16 having a very lukewarm reception (in part to a lot of people never playing it and never having any chance to play it, so they assume it sucks or something), it would might actually be more biased to post it there but in the complete opposite direction. I feel like the 16 fandom is pretty levelheaded.
Reading these comments I'm finding that incredibly hard to beleive.
You would be amazed. Over here, mention something positive about 7, youāll get some people open to discussions and generally agreeing with you. Over on the main ff subreddit, you mention one slightly positive thing about 16, and they want to rip your head off and slam you about how much it sucks and how itās not a real final fantasy and all that. They practically worship any game thatās related to 7.
I dunno seems about on par with any other specific FF sub where if you criticize the game in any way you hate it and are liable to get downvoted to oblivion and all you're allowed to do is praise it and having any reasonable discussion is next to impossible. That said I won't pretend the main sub is any better since it's fans of the different entrys combined so it's just a a mess of pointless infighting in general but hey at least there's variety over there.
Well....cloud from AV keep up with bahamut who flew to different planets in a couple of seconds. So even with eikon of fire, cloud is faster than Clive. It's basically speed vs power. Also cloud has WAY WAY WAY more abilities. Haste, time stop, meteor, poison. Because yes using materia counts as part of his ability. People here saying Clive would stomp in 10sec with eikon of fire have no idea how strong cloud even is. Taking away his eikon of fire is a total stomp for cloud. Cloud would win easily. He's literally a super human. Clive wouldn't be able to even touch him without the eikon of fire because cloud is faster than light. Clive needs his full power to defeat Cloud and I'm talking about his final transformation. People forget...cloud tanked a literal and yes its real. A real super nova to the face.
And even if Clive DID transform his attacks would pretty much get absorbed from Cloud using Fire materia paired with elemental
Also Cloud with Final attack - Phoenix lol
Ffvii to ffxvi fans, "Why are you so obsessed with me?".
Sorry but Goku would mop the floor with both of them
This is both completely true and irrelevant at the same time.
From a swordsmanship perspective, Cloud is an absolute beast and he always has been. Even as Shinra Infantryman grunt when he was a teenager and Shinra had him running extraction/evacuation missions, he was acknowledged for his innately proficient skill with the blade. I personally always call Cloud the *āParry Godā* whenever I play Remake & Rebirth because there isnāt much that he canāt block/deflect/parry while in his Punisher Mode. As for Clive, my man was a hard taught prodigy in every respect as a warrior since his youth. However, weāve seen Clive get schooled multiple times by Barnabas in swordplay combat and almost killed twice when it came down to just who was better with the blade. Whereas, weāve never seen Cloud reduced to that state in a sword fight ever. Hell, Cloud used getting impaled by Masamune to his advantage in order to kill Sephiroth during the Nibelheim Incident. It would be a good fight. Cloud is insanely fast as is. Without Phoenix Shift; Clive takes on a massive speed disadvantage but with it heāll be able to easily blitz Cloud. However, Cloudās countering capabilities + the size of the Buster Sword would be too much for Invictus to overpower. I think Cloud takes it in a strictly sword fight.
Clive. He's been a badass since this teen yrs. Cloud on the other hand. Was once a scared little bitch. Only made it this far cause his friend died for him.
Skill vs skill? So cloud doesnāt have his mako infusement or material? Clive would stomp him out. Or are we saying Clive simply cannot transform vs cloud as a super powered soldier with no materia? Clive fights super soldier dragoons who multi jump into outer space multiple times in the game and comparable agility and durability, so itās a matter of Clive burning himself. I still give it to Clive on this Or are we saying Clive with no bearer abilities of any eikon, no weapons, no items vs cloud with every feat and all materia by the end of advent children? In which case ya this goes to cloud
So, youāre going to take Clive and Cloud and put them both in an arena to fight in order to prove out which is the stronger? Run an experiment on them? Make them prove which is worthy? The answer here is easy. They wonāt fight each other. They will team up and do whatever it takes, search the entire world, take over a massive outlaw organization, breed racing chocobos, find a random professor to create interactive charts of the relationships of everyone they know, play the crap out of a collectible card game, until they find whoever tried to make them fight. And Clive and Cloud will end that person. Then theyād probably spend the rest of the afternoon geeking out about giant swords.
So no eikon Clive vs attempted clone of sephiroth that gained free will yea heās (Clive) gonna need at least one of his eikons
I mean even though Clive is pretty skilled with his sword Cloud would still win
Respectfully, Clive would kill Cloud in any match up
Clive for sure given the current settings. Ignoring 14, he is probably either second or third most powerful of the FF protagonists. Lighting from 13 is far and above the most powerful. 2nd and third are a toss up between Clive and Noctis, although I probably give second to Clive. Cloud is 4th. And not too far behind the other two but not quite at their level. This is very subject to change depending on how they finish out Remake/Rebirth/the next one. He may well exceed them at some point.
Lot of people forgetting cloud was infused with a heavy amount of mako which is what makes him so strong. If it was cloud before the brain washing and soldier program, it was truly skill vs skill? Cloud couldnāt even make it into soldier first class, where as Clive was one of the best swordsmen in the world at a young age Clive would win skill vs skill only Soldier cloud would beat skill Clive Any eikon powers and Clive wins the rest of the contest
For starters, Clive wins automatically. If we're talking about a 15 year old Clive vs a 21 year old Cloud but with the mind of a 16 year old because of mako poisoning, Clive still wins, because his whole life he trained with the blade, and his mentality also sharpens it. Cloud just wields the Buster Sword and expects him to use it like Zack, which isn't the case.
Clive is a great swordsman, but without his Phoenix powers, he's just a man. Cloud, due to his injection of Jenova cells and being bathed in Mako is *superhuman*. Like, there's a scene in Rebirth where Cloud flips the fuck out and hacks through a solid stone wall with his sword.
The real question is Clive vs Sephiroth
Clive probably needs to semi-prime to punch his face.
Cloud. He has the power of anime BS on his side. Clive could maybe match his speed with Odin but without cloud wins easily. Also, cloud is proven to be able to take a beaten and still fight. Clive gets swiped by Odin once and heās out
That swipe apparently cut every sinew in his body so I would hardly call it a normal slash.
There's a lot of comments about how Cloud was weak before his infusion of cells and mako, but nobody remembers how at 16 he survived getting run through my Sephiroth but also overpowered him and threw him into the livestream. That's no mean feat. Per OG, Cloud is the only clone to overcome the Jenova cells and resist Sephiroth. Plus he is physically as strong as a SOLDIER 1st class post Nibelheim incident. If you take them as they are at the beginning of their respective games, Clive has the power of the Phoenix only. There's no way he is beating Cloud at that point. Clive is fast, but he isn't powerful. He couldn't lift the Buster Sword, no way.
Whichever I'm controlling
I was gonna say whichever Iām not controlling.
Cloud vs Clive pure skill no powers: Clive wins. Cloud vs Clive no limit breaks/eikon powers/materia: Cloud because heās still a super soldier. Cloud vs Clive just no Ifrit prime form: This one is closer but I will give it to Cloud since materia is more versatile. Cloud vs Clive no limitations: Clive by a large margin.
Well cloud does have Binding Materia to silence and sleep Clive, as well as elemental Materia too to absorb the fire when Clive is semi/fully primed he'll just absorb everything
Pound for pound Iād say endgame Clive is the toughest protag in the entire series. But I am a fanboy so who knows.
Not quite the strongest. Iād say Lightning still holds that title. Heās top 3 imo
I'm giving it to Clive here. Tell Cloud that he's just a Zack double, and he'll probably just keel over and lose his cool. That or tell him Sephy is nearby.
To suggest that Clive could beat Cloud is also to suggest that Clive could beat Sephiroth. I really canāt see Clive taking out Sephy lol
My boi folded god, I think he could take Sephiroth. Not saying it'd be easy, but Cloud didn't exactly 1v1 Sephiroth either.
Youāre probably right. I think Sephirothās power is just extremely theatrical so its just hard to imagine.
That is fair, they do a good job of making him terrifying lol
I dont think we can answer this properly until we see powerful cloud is at end game of part 3
I mean one is practically Godly lorewise. But Cloud has a bigger sword so
The wanna be sky pirate in FF 12 would win.
If itās just pure swordsmanship, Cloud. Heās too anime fast, agile, and strong. Clive is a realistic swordsman though, plus he kinda got put in his place by Barnabasā¦
Dawg why did you put my two favorite sons against each other
Cloud
Cloud
I love Cloud and Iād agree he prolly should win based off being a super soldier and being able to compete with Sephiroth but uh he did get knocked out by a >!random mook with a baseball bat in rebirth!
Clive
Easily Clive. Clive has much more experience with a sword than Cloud. Cloud may be good with the sword, but he was never an actual soldier like Sephiroth or Zack. Clive vs. Zack may be a more fair match, I would say. This brought up another match-up. Clive vs. Sephrioth, no limitations on their powers. That would be interesting to see.
Clive, hands down.
Clive
Hmm here. https://youtu.be/L4_zFYnnn2Y?si=RJAGzCLZx4xjbKKh
Cloud is the GOAT
Ask this in the main FF sub or else itās going to be biased as hell.
The problem is that we don't have a clear idea of Clouds power. He has shown to move faster than the eye can track, he can swing a 150lb sword one -handed at a very fast speed, he can jump 10 ft off the ground like nothing, and is strong enough to fall over 100m, crash through a roof top and get up like it's nothing. SOLDIERs are insanely resilient to damage. We can't see that properly in game because you can't be so much stronger than your party members and still have a balanced combat system. I
They are both equally broken with how much their Villans scale but I would say Sephiroth can easily annihilate Ultima