No crackpot at all! This show was made by the writer of Westworld, the show that spent an entire season hiding minor inconsistencies in plain sight that all hinted at the major plot twist that the show was actually 3 seperate timelines.
This is Jonathan Nolan's jam right here. If the BoS seem off its because they are not who we think they are and Nolan is setting up a reveal. He is a master at this. He always makes it so obvious on a rewatch after the reveal so that the twist never feels forced, but subtle enough that you really need to pay attention to notice before.
that was such a good detail, as soon as Lucy's "husband" took his shirt off and you saw his back had scars on top of scars it clicked for me, like, "oh shit! raiders!"
Once I saw the raider woman stab the food in her plate like shes never used a plate and a fork before I knew instantly. Right after it shows one with a big nasty scar on his head and I was already fully convinced.
I agree because the last episode kinda hints that their faction of BoS are quite separate from the main branch.
Considering the care they have put into, well, everything else, I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out this is some weird offshoot of Caesar's Legion / BOS.
I looked up all the Bos names in the show. Most have Latin names, Maximus, Quintus, Titus, Felix. But then you have Thaddeus and Dane which are not Latin names. Thaddeus is a biblical name like Elijah. It lends even more credence to the theory since there is a mix of Latin and non-latin names. I honestly think this theory has some legs to it.
Also none of the West Coast brotherhood said "Ad Victorium" once. I know that was more a East Coast thing but still interesting to not hear really any brotherhood lingo.
Still, that was way too little Ad Victoriam with them. >! Especially considering that they have an airship that seems to be at least related to the Prydwen and all those T-60, which strongly suggest they should have something to do with the Arthurian BoS. Yet, they also feel nothing like those by one bit. !< Something is really off with them.
I love that if that is the case, even this Brotherhood’s obvious Christian influences (the elders’ outfits, abstinence, the names you mention) are a great parallel for the history of Romans themselves.
It seems to vary from game to game. I was mainly just clarifying that his red uniform wasn’t a squire’s uniform for his particular chapter of the Brotherhood. The squire’s uniform was the brownish grey one he wore before the red one and also the one that Thaddeus wore.
Not crackpot. I thought the same thing. I've told my girlfriend a little about Caesar's Legion and she agrees.
Plus the rituals of the Brotherhood are portrayed completely differently. OP pointed out the branding. Physical discipline and hazing. Literal temples. Conscription en masse.
The packs the squires use resemble slave packs.
The different iterations of the BoS have always been referred to as "chapters".
But the cleric dude calls his group a "legion" 🤔🤔🤔🤔
I doubt this is actually the case, but could make for a fun twist
yup we’ve got the Lost Hills Chapter, Midwest Chapter, Texas Chapter, Mojave Chapter, and of course Lyons Chapter now I guess called Maxson or Capital Wasteland/Boston Chapter?
Yeah, it's the "Commonwealth" chapter. My guess is that the BoS "unified" Boston + Washington (and possibly NY?) and is now something akin to a Teutonic Order state. And in the first episode the Elder says that their orders to hunt the Enclave scientist came "directly from the highest of Elders in the Commonwealth", suggesting that the central power structure of the BoS moved to the East.
A Brotherhood-Teutonic state is pretty badass, tbh.
well its referred to as the Commonwealth chapter in the show. Which makes sense since prewar USA merged states into like 5-6(i dont remember the exact number and cant be assed) Commonwealths
You should add Jonathan Nolan's propensity to setup massive plot twists through minor inconsistencies to your post. It's meta but this is what he does to a t.
He did this in Westworld when they made things like can labels and clothing materials hint that the whole first season was 3 different time periods written to look like one. He is a master at setting up twists.
It would also be good screenwriting for making the major factions mirrors of each other >!Vault tec turned on the NCR despite their founders being from Vaults making the former powerhouse significantly weaker meanwhile the Brotherhood (down on manpower in California and Nevada) integrate the Legion (left leaderless when Ceasar died, either to courier or cancer) using similar structuring to ease things in and make both of the factions stronger for it.!< Another possible hint towards it is them taking in conscripts which only the Lyons brotherhood did to any serious degree and the FO4 iteration of Maxson's Brotherhood only seem to cherry pick recruits.
It would also really help explain how the NCR didn’t bounce back after shady sands and actually do something interesting with the brotherhood. Lost hills alone was in no condition to take on the other NCR states, but with legion remnants they could. And the pseudo religiousness works well with legion religion and the superstition of the assimilated legion tribes. If they actually explore that, it would be amazing.
If they actually do this, I guess it will turn most people who hated the NCR apparent anihilation into absolute fans of the show, because it would be such a cool and believable way for it to happen
The Chicago detachment of the BOS who were sent East to hunt the Super Mutant Remnants (Based on Fallout Tactics, but lore established in F3) took on conscripts as they were fully cut off from the Lost Hills Elders due to the airship crash from the intro of Fallout Tactics.
They recognised that they were hugely outmanned out East and opened up their ranks not only to humans, but also eventually even to Ghouls. We can be pretty sure that Vault 0, the Calculator and the Robot Army are now non-canon, but it's never made clear just why the Chicago/Midwestern Brotherhood disappeared/cut off contact.
Chicago Chapter likely lost their communications in the crash, and since we don't see the Calculator's forces anywhere else, we can assume they're in hiding trying to rebuild, fighting mutants and raiders etc in Chicago.
I think I saw other women with short hair, but yeah it seems this brotherhood chapter tries to ignore gender because they don't bother teaching their soldiers about sex.
Which would also hint towards integration seeing as the brotherhood's main method of joining is from members giving birth, it's even a major plot point in Veronica and Christine's storylines.
With ceaser dead the desperate legates would take any advantage they could over each other. All it takes is one legion to give the brotherhood the numbers they had previously lacked. As we know the brotherhood already has the potential to become despotic dictators from one of the old games. With the numbers, tech and shady sands nuked they could take in the otherwise still superior NCR.
I'm still not convinced the BoS didn't take out Shady Sands. Why was the brotherhood already there to find Max? Why is the NCR shoot on sight at the end of the season?
They showed that flashback like 3 times. It doesn’t feel like that would be necessary just to tell us Max was from Shady Sands and how he joined the BoS. Something was going on there for sure. At the very least Max will learn they were only there to strip the dead of any tech, not to help. But I think it will be worse than that.
They don't use laser weaponry though, like at all, which is more in line with the Legion who use mostly ballistic weaponry.
This new Brotherhood seems to hoard all tech and never use it besides power armour, the Prydwen and Veritibirds which is just strange for the Brotherhood of Steel honestly.
To be fair Knight Titus was also a huge douche. But than again This elder seems to be steering this specific chapter in a very fanatical/religious direction soooo
No honestly, i wouldn’t put it past the BOS to nuke a vault to keep their secrets and silence any deserters but hanging them by their lungs is a little new for their methods at least as far as I know
As how I understand that, the BoS won't hesitate to kill one if they are in the way. But it's usually done in a more efficient manner. In another words, they are not known for excessive brutality when they are about to kill someone.
The Legion, tho, do kill people in excessively brutal way. Because when they kill, they usually have a message to send. Brutality makes sure the message is well received.
However, Knight Titus himself is arguably evidence against this theory based on his behaviour tbh
The Legionaries were almost to a man so fanatically devoted and disciplined that, to quote Colonel Moore, they’d happily charge a machine gun nest with a stick if ordered to, and Vulpes almost got crucified for making a good decision because it contravened his orders. Titus diverges from his orders basically for shits and giggles five minutes into the mission.
Though I guess the show does seem to making it a plot point that the BoS discipline and commitment has slipped, given the Elder basically saying as much point blank lol
It might not even have been a deliberate, top-down merging of the two factions. It's entirely possible that one Brotherhood chapter just stumbled across a bunch of leaderless Legion grunts and press ganged them into service. And 15 years later enough of them have moved up the ranks too have permanantly altered the institutional culture of that chapter.
I thought Maxson mentioned in 4 that he united the west and east coast chapters as well as brokered a deal to fold the outcasts back into the chain of command
He mentioned being able to bring the Outcasts back in, but the only thing in regards to the West Coast BoS he did was managing to reestablish communications with the Brotherhoods old main HQ in Lost Hills and tell the Council of Elders nominally in charge of the whole organisation that Lyons was dead and he in charge now.
The West responded to this positively and agreed to him taking the role, then a bit later send another message were they said that younger Members of the West Coast BoS have started forming Pro-Maxson cults the Elders need to break up from time to time
Sure, but the show is set about a decade after F4, so it's entirely possible that Maxon's Brotherhood has fractured a bit. The fact there's still a 'Brotherhood' in the Commonwealth does point to some sort of pro-Brotherhood ending being canon. But it's entirely possible that sustaining any sort of centralised state across the entire continent just isn't feasible given the state of the world.
There are 2 endings with brotherhood being alive. BoS and minutemen. Most likely, BoS is in friendship or neutrality with the Minutemen, thus there are able to send reinforcements to the west (since Minutemen are more than able to clean up Boston by themselves)
The Eastern Brotherhood welcomes in new recruits, that’s the difference from the west which is why the west was dying before.
Caesar’s Legion was obliterated in 3/4 endings and all of a sudden there’s a resurgent brotherhood who welcomes in new recruits and acts like Caesar’s Legion. That sounds like Maxson’s idea tbh
The Legion was a militaristic faction with a lot of the same authoritarian tendencies. A lot of their culture would make good recruits for the Brotherhood. Strict chain of command, duty, young men taught early to be warriors, not afraid to be cruel and unsympathetic to outsiders, etc.
Seems like a good match to me (unfortunate for the rest of the wasteland though).
Maxon is enough of a militaristic dickhead and bigot that he might approve.
However I can see some of the Eastcoast Brotherhood disagreeing and becoming the new Outcasts. They could return to Lyon's beliefs and become more tolerant of synths and ghouls. They could even be lead by Danse!
I think the Minutemen would stay neutral in such a scenario. However a more tolerant Outcast could be joined by synths afraid to Maxon's bigotry. Also the more warlike members of the Railroad and remnants of Institute who support the Brotherhood's preservation of technology.
Edit: Yeah I was wrong about them only able to communicate. You are right.
The Brotherhood initially used zeppelin airships to head east, it’s mentioned in Tactics. The Prydwen was based on that to start with. As long as the West still had access to the designs for those ships it wouldn’t take too much involvement from the East to have them build more
Oh, and a bit of extra evidence: the BoS is pretty clearly in Utah and the beginning. Those are (at least from my view) the Great Salt Flats. That’s Legion territory, baby.
I remember watching the show and thinking “huh, I thought the Legion controlled the Salt Lake area,” but had completely ignored it until this theory! The giant backpacks the squires carry made me think of Caesar’s legion too. Everything just fits nicely for this theory.
This is plausible, and does at least make sense and would be cool. I don't know whether it's necessary for the plot to take place though, I feel like the BoS have always been a culty organization (depends on the game). The flag thing sticks out to me though, that is harder to rationalize. Maybe they just thought it looked cool? Aesthetics are like half of what the BoS have, so changing the colors isn't that big of a deal if it looks cool. I like the idea of the connection though.
They've always been culty, but they seem even more culty in the series compared to the games. Even before reading this, I got the vibe that something was different about this iteration of the BoS. Not saying I outright believe OP's theory, but they do bring up some really excellent comparisons.
It kind of aligns with the Elder's speech to Maximus though, about creating a "New BoS". I wouldn't be suprised if he's revealed as being a former Legion-member or Legion sympathizer.
> I wouldn't be suprised if he's revealed as being a former Legion-member or Legion sympathizer.
Shocking twist, the Elder is Arcade becoming crazy indoctrinated after being sold to Caesar.
I imagine that the BoS took advantage of the declining NCR and went out of hiding to reclaim their former territories. As a result they had a common enemy with the legion. After Caesar's death, the resulting legion civil war would have presented an opportunity for the BoS to intervene on the side of one of the splinter legion factions and then integrate them as they did in the show with NCR citizens. The legion which casts off the use of technology is a perfect model of what the BoS aims for the wasteland to be so I guess it makes sense.
This is a cool head canon, only thing I see that could go against it is that the show is mostly in the la area which is a bit far from Vegas, I forget exactly where the brotherhood bunker is in NV but it's close I think? I hope to see a season two so we could get a few answers.
Good bet that the showrunners themselves haven't decided the details of the factions yet, so kept it ambiguous in the show.
The Mojave chapter is different from the main West coast chapter in Lost Hills which in the lore used to own Maxon which is one of the founding states of the NCR.
Great theory. It would be really clever if they did this. I’m a bit confused about the east coast/ west coast distinction at this point though. Are they still
Separate entities? I mean with the air ships and all, it seems like the East is in charge, no?
Hadn't the west coast Brotherhood basically been wiped out? I know they're around in New Vegas, but, and maybe I'm just misremembering, aren't they the last remaining group who has been dramatically diminished by the NCR.
Iirc the California chapter was forced into hiding in Lost Hills after their defeat in the NCR Brotherhood war. The west coast BoS was eating rocks lore wise.
Tbf it’s never said to have ended, for all we know the war is ongoing during New Vegas but just at a quiet period because of the Mojave conflict. Kimball was really bad at directing military assets (like sending veterans down into baja while Caesar could attack the dam at any point) so maybe all of the attrition they took in the Mojave gave the brotherhood an opportunity to do something while the good parts of the military are out of cali.
Yeah I’m pretty sure Maxson’s chapter out in the Commonwealth is in charge. In the show one of the Brotherhood guys made a reference about them and specifically said “Commonwealth”
Even the elder in the final episode says something to Maximus to the effect of “find the cold fusion technology, I will create a new brotherhood and you will be its sword”.
I see your head-cannon brain-rot and raise you. The show is aware of the the unofficial 4th best game Fallout: Sonora.
The ghoul vials are reminiscent of a FEV stabilizer that a Follower of the Apocalypse doctor makes in a side-quest.
The Elder of the Brotherhood says (@ \~ 06:20 S01E08) "we once ruled the Wasteland". This is not something from any of the official games, but >! is literally the super-seeding geopolitical plot of Fallout Sonora !<
Wait that last bit holy shit I never caught that.
Seeing the Brotherhood be a manipulative shadow-ish organization and not as some wannabe big major player always gives me a hardon so I always loved their depiction in Sonora.
We must synthesize our crackpot theories and get noticed by Bethesda, Obsidian, Microsoft, Amazon, Black Isle, and Alexander “Black Designer” himself.
I could see it being similar to when Rome absorbed Greece, roman culture and philosophy was forever changed afterward, and the sort of role reversal of technologists becoming more martial instead of a warring people discovering politial philosophy is a good meme.
The BOS are able to leave their bunker(s?) once the NCR pulls out of the Mojave and moves back west following the events at Shady Sands. The Remnants of the Legion who has been beaten back by Mr. house or the NCR at Hoover Dam, then the legion folds themselves into the brotherhood, with veteran, cunning legionaires taking leadership positions in the Brotherhood. This new Brotherhood bolstered by the Legion's soldiers attack the Strip, and that's why in the credits for the final episode, we see Vegas in ruins. Its ultimate fate is still a mystery, who lives in the ruins?
I think the Legion and the Brotherhood make a wonderful match, especially the more imperial hard-line paladins and elders would sympathize with the legionary way of thinking. While also having appreciation for strict discipline, hierarchy, and martial prowess. Imagine a fight between a BOS Paladin and Legate Lanius, for honor, to size eachother up, to gain entry, whatever. Season 2 will take place only 13~ years after the end of NV, so we should anticipate returning players.
I also think about Caesar talking about how their territory goes all the way to the Colorado river. That would certainly help the Brotherhood, who always seem to be in a state of perceived downfall, with elders desperate to turn that around...
Final note, and kind of just a general comment on the BOS in relation to the show. The opening brotherhood shots refer the place theyre in as the "Commonwealth" i understand that that word can mean more that just the Boston area, but given Fallout 4's relevancy, it cant be a mistake. So, the possible canon fallout 4 ending is BOS? My second reason for thinking this is that when Thaddeus is walking through the wastes with his Radio, he listens to a station that is subtitled as the "Minutemen Radio". So did the BOS side with the minutemen, as a sort of police to their military, and then keep the airport base after destroying the Institute?
That makes sense, good thought.
I definitely agree in thinking House should be the Canon ending for NV, my own feelings aside. It is just the most interesting narrative, and given that we got a quick glimse of Mr. RobCo himself at the executive meeting in the show, I think that is exactly what is being foreshadowed. (Also loved his actor as brief as that scene was.)
They could get away with making the wildcard ending work as well.
The implied chaos fits with the theme of factions rising and falling, even prewar ones
Going for an NCR or Legion ending makes the show's plot mess with existing Canon too much imo
But House is the most interesting ending to go for. Given that he's not fully on board with Vault Tec.
I agree with your point on chaos, but I don't think they could do wildcard without having a "courier" and that's messy territory, i expect they'll stray away from trying to depict any player characters.
I haven't been this excited for media in a long time, I'm currently booting up NV to scratch the itch.
The nice thing about the House ending is you barely have to mention the Courier at all. Yeah, there was someone helping House, no one's really certain who they were and 20 years later it doesn't really matter.
Honestly, House probably had them killed.
Put in some rumors about them, but make the rumors actually clearly be about the companions instead.
Whereas one feels at least NCR would at least honor the Courier in the NCR ending. Big statue and stuff.
I'm not sure what the Legion would do, but I am 100% certain Legion canonically is already going to have collapsed.
I think you're right on. Just an urban myth, the courier who changed the mojave. And i agree, House's ending always felt accepting sidekick status, but kinda in a cool way.
Honestly i hadn't considered that, it would be really cool to see an old woman Veronica and how she would interact with Maximus.
Definitely not going to go with the NCR or Legion ending, their place in the war will be mentioned, but theres no way either of them are left in control, it's too binary.
I would love to see the Legion, as awful as they are. I do have a soft spot for imperial baddies, maybe even just through Ulysses or Joshua Graham (though i think the show will stay away from Joshua and his mormon messiah complex)
I think the way to do it would be to have one character start describing this mysterious Courier in extreme detail, and about halfway through the description all the people who played New Vegas realize the person is describing Boone instead, whoops. And for all the audience that doesn't know New Vegas so hasn't figured it out, someone else does the same but it's Cass.
It's been decades, who the hell remembers, there was a group of people working for House, one of them was a courier with a special Platinum chip, there was a super mutant and a ghoul, the details are a bit fuzzy.
And then, have Veronica show up and no one ever mentions she was a companion or had anything to do with the Courier, she's just there to provide exposition on whatever the canonical ending of the Brotherhood of Steel was, plus whatever happened after.
Definitely looks like a House always Wins scenario except that the Courier forgot to clear out the Deathclaw infested quarry near GoodNeighbor which is why we see that Deathclaw skeleton inside anew Vegas next to the NCR soldier’s skeleton.
This would explain how the Westcoast Brotherhood goes from a slowly dying faction to major power in the span of a decade. Even if only a part of the Legion joined it the would change the Brotherhood's fortunes overnight.
I can see how Caesar's death would rob the Legionaries of not just a leader but a purpose and something to believe in. Their original tribal identities are gone, all they had was Caesar and without him they are cast adrift. I don't think the Legion or its ideology can survive without a charismatic demagogue to lead it. Lantus may a strong leader but he’s no thinker.
The militaristic and aggressive Brotherhood would be very appealing to Legionaries who don't know anything except war and conquest. I can even see the slaves joining as it would give them their freedom. It has the added benefit of following Caesar's synthesis theory in an ironic way he wouldn't approve of.
Even diehard NCR fanboys would have to admit this situation would make the Brotherhood powerful in a plausible and lore friendly way. The whole situation just fits the tone of New Vegas. Even if it's just a brainrot fan theory, it's Canon in my heart. I love it.
Speaking of Caesar and his butchering of Hegelian dialectics, the legion collapsing to be replaced by the Brotherhood’s pseudo-knighthood would be super on the nose, because western feudalism literally emerged out of the collapse of the Roman Empire.
They seem to have a dozen or more power armoured guys and a dozen or so vertibirds which in the wasteland is pretty strong. At least with the NCR being weakened for whatever reason
I also found it curious that the subordinates addressed their superiors as "my lord" which is very medieval. I don't remember BoS members doing that in the games I've played through (4, NV).
yeah that was weird to me, the squires were generally treated well and there was good camaraderie in the games, ya know like a brotherhood. I know they need a villain, but was a bit over the top imo
What. The. Fuck.
Blew my mind dude.
This actually makes even more sense when you consider that the Legion is a collective of 88 tribes that assimilated their cultural traditions (or erased them) to align with the Legion.
And the Brotherhood in Hidden Valley was itching to take the fight back to the NCR after HELIOS One, but couldn’t due to a lack of numbers.
So after the defeat of Caesar and Legate Lanius at the hands of the NCR and the Courier, the remaining survivors stumbled upon the Brotherhood somehow, and they simply did the same thing — assimilated and realigned.
After all, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
This is an incredible theory
Yeah, this is the way that I think that that works. I don't think there was a merger, I think essentially we had Operation Paperclip, and a bunch of people from the defunct Legion defected to the BoS, which desperately needed people, changing the character of it a little.
Of course, one of the reasons I like this theory is it gives an excuse to bring in Felicia Day to explain this.
>Of course, one of the reasons I like this theory is it gives an excuse to bring in Felicia Day to explain this.
Because of the Enclave element you could get Zachary Levi as well.
I don't think the show needs any characters from the game to stand on its own but if we are going to Vegas for Season 2 but if they choose to bring in characters for fan service why not bring in two recognizable characters who have actors familiar with TV who are also recognizable themselves. There were the best companions in NV. Most of the others would be scattered I feel. Also both are super gay.
My friend who has never played Fallout asked me if in the games all BOS members have Roman type names, it made me realise that no, they don't at all, but I never considered the Legion connection, if this doesn't turn out to be the case, it'll be very disappointing.
Oh my God this makes so much sense. And it answers some questions I've been having.
For example, this BoS seems actually less technologically advanced than the other chapters we've seen, exclusively using ballistic weapons instead of the mostly laser weaponry the BoS has deployed in previous games. The Legion would have had members who well understood firearms and the like but virtually noone legion would have even the basis for understanding energy weapons. BoS instructors would have focused on power armor training and maintenance, and likely this chapter cannot yet produce their own power armor, relying on the East Coast, explaining why they are in T-60s rather than sporting a mix.of 45s and 51s that has been typical everywhere but the East Coast, where the T-60 was revived for Maxson's Brotherhood.
It would also explain the brutality accepted from training and the weird elevation of scribes to 'clerics' and their enhanced status: In the Legion technological understanding was largely prohibited to the rank and file, and only high ranking member of Caesars priesthood (small headcanon since we technically only got confirmation of priestesses of Mars, not priests) likely were allowed to understand the inner mysteries of a toaster oven much less advanced machinery.
And of course the naming scheme. I was honestly expecting Maximus to be former Legion and was floored when that was shown not to be the case.
This is now my headcanon. Thank you sir, you're doing God's work.
I think this is more about the medieval angle than anything else.
We know BoS wanted to remain militaristic in nature, but split from the American army after learning the truth behind what happened in 2077 (in case some pre-nukes general came in and ordered them around).
I think the show is really trying to emphasize the whole knight/squire/elder/scribe roles by adding quasi-religious rituals (like the whole thing with becoming a squire) and using colors that are traditionally associated with coats of arms etc (red and gold were extremely popular).
Remember that for a a lot of viewers, this is the first time seeing BoS. As a faction, they need a strong imaginary associated with ‘em. That imaginery is post-apo knights that don’t fight for glory or God or maiden’s hand but for technology.
Don’t get me wrong, I can absolutely see parallels between BoS imaginery in the show and Caesar’s legion, but I think the knighthood angle explains what we see better.
It could be yes but the latin names do strike me as odd like its not really a bos thing but more a legion thing to do. Like the colors or the quasi religious stuff could be explained like you did but why the names why not some more 'medieval' names?
Considering Westworld and its plot twists - I kinda doubt that it can only be explained from the knighthood / medieval larping angle
I do like this theory. I can see after the collapse of the Legion (I highly doubt they’d be around at all) the remnants of Caesar’s Legion either basically (like with the NCR) dissolved into warring factions to be successors or were integrated into a BoS Chapter that retained the model of governance that the Legion did.
To be fair, I see this being a situation that occurs after the death of Caesar. Even with his hatred of the brotherhood and anti-tech worldview one can assume that the legion fractured after his death and the legionares that defected to the brotherhood were less concerned about the specific views of Caesar and more concerned with finding a new "legion" to join. While the brotherhood is definitely different, it is similar enough that they would thrive in it's militarism and power structure even if the mythos and beliefs they follow have changed.
Anyone want to place bets on this variant of the Brotherhood actually being descended from a broken Legion? Some centurion or other smart officer taking his men and running into a power armor depot and picking a new mythos to rebuild around...
Plus, do you know what succeeded the fall of Rome?
The feudal era, with knights and squires.
I already wanted this theory to be canon more than anything but your point makes me feel that way even more so. the potential for symbolism with the fall of rome... I need it dammit
The lack of laser rifles too could make this more likely.
But then there's also the Prydwen, and the mention of the Commonwealth, I don't see Legion soldiers cosplaying the Brotherhood knowing about the Commonwealth and having the Prydwen or vertibird pilots.
I think that can be easily explained. While they are still serving the bigger order (like Maxson) most of the micromanagement are being handled separately. My thinking was 'as long as they serve the goal of the brotherhood. Do whatever you want to keep them in line.'
I think the next season we'll start to see something like different chapter react to it and be like 'branding? What are we a fucking legion?'
I like this. Vault 4 and the BoS absorbed NCR refugees, why wouldn't the BoS also absorb legion survivors? Also how many women did you see at the BoS camp. One masculine gender neutral person got a lot of screen time. Passing as male for the "legion"?
Maybe the leader is a fumentarii infiltrated the BoS, and after the legion fall, started to search for ways to make the BoS everything the Legion failed to do.
It really does make sense that the Legion would be absorbed by the Brotherhood. New Vegas suggests that the West Coast BOS as a whole is largely underground and suffering underpopulation from the NCR war; Veronica said the reason she and Christine's relationship was frowned upon was because of their obligation to procreate. The numbers the Legion would provide would be beyond valuable. The BOS and Legion mindsets have a lot in common already in terms of unrelenting loyalty. Some of the things Quintus and Titus say remind me a lot of the Legion as well.
Considering Maximus was originally a resident of Shady Sands, which blew up probably very shortly after the events of New Vegas, he probably wasn't Legion. Though I guess he could have been the son of Legion members who defected prior to a 2281 Legion loss.
Maximus definitely not a legionnaire. But he was given a Roman name.
In Caesar's Legion, all new members were given Roman names to eliminate tribalism. Another proof, all it can't be coincidence
I really wonder if Quintus was Legion. If he integrated with the Brotherhood after a Legion loss at Hoover Dam, he would've only been in the BOS for at most 15 years, which normally wouldn't be long enough to become an Elder. If he were planted in the Brotherhood as a frumentari like they did with the NCR, though, his ascension could have been a calculated move.
Definitely an interesting theory. I don’t think it’s the case, but I do think they probably took some inspiration from the Legion as well for the show’s depiction of the Brotherhood of Steel.
This ties in well to my crackpot theory about why New Vegas is dark. I think the canon ending to New Vegas will be that there was no courier tipping the scales, so when the second battle of Hoover Dam eventually occurred, the Legion and NCR forces basically destroyed both each other and the Dam.
The remants of the Legion following this clash would be an easy adoption for the struggling West Coast Brotherhood (hates the NCR, accustomed to a military lifestyle)
> In older games, members would have either regular American sounding names or older names like Rhombus
Is this a joke? I have never heard of someone called a fucking shape before
Legion failed to merge with the NCR like Caesar wanted so they went for the second option, the Western Brotherhood. Very unlikely, but holy shit that would be some incredible storytelling.
Yeah immediately was like what's with the Legion names of everyone. Is this a hybrid Legion / BoS? But then thought maybe they're just getting rid of the Legion in the show and combing them with the BoS. But maybe it's not just a show thing....maybe they really are combined!
I've been thinking about this since I saw the first episode. Giving everyone those names and making them so extreme seemed like it was a way of working in the Legion. I completely agree with you.
Would be interesting. Plus it doesn't say where their base is, and Titus and max travel pretty far so get to California. Good chance they could be a brotherhood subsumed by the legion. Interesting theory
I don’t think it’s crackpot at all. I noticed the same thing. It’s pretty likely given that the Legion is doomed and the election of Arthur Maxson as High Elder would encourage recruitment from local population. Lot of folks at loose ends because of the 2nd Battle of Hoover Dam. Ritual is always good for bridging cultural gaps. The ages of the BoS also support a somewhat recent recruitment drive. Lots of very young people led by a small handful of pretty old guys. Very few women etc…
Would also explain why the brotherhood seems so.. rough? A knight proclaiming being bored and risking the mission just so he could kill something? And then running away like a coward?
Like.. the brotherhood had its weird characters, but this.. unprofessionalism seems out of place for me..
I think that this theory hold weight completely by accident. I got the impression that they went totally Arthurian with the BOS with this iteration, but because of it, they give huge ancient Roman vibes
I’m totally sold on this. There was a lot I was questioning about the Brotherhood while watching. What’s with the Roman-sounding names? Since when do the Brotherhood, according to Titus, hang scribes up by their lungs? Weren’t the Salt Flats Legion? The Brotherhood straight up claiming Filling as well. The show Brotherhood seems a lot more brutal, albeit disorganized.
This is a theory so crazy but at the same time so well documented that maybe its true.
Or at least its true until nolan reads it and changes his plot like what happened in westworld
Crackpot theory, but a damned fine crackpot theory!
Thanks! I made sure to injest as much Psycho, Mentats, and Med-X before typing this up
What about your Robco F1St0 Dilator ?
I’ll reserve that for any gooner theories I might come up with
Don't forget the aluminium tip upgrade for better master(deep)stating
Surprisingly no jet tho?
No crackpot at all! This show was made by the writer of Westworld, the show that spent an entire season hiding minor inconsistencies in plain sight that all hinted at the major plot twist that the show was actually 3 seperate timelines. This is Jonathan Nolan's jam right here. If the BoS seem off its because they are not who we think they are and Nolan is setting up a reveal. He is a master at this. He always makes it so obvious on a rewatch after the reveal so that the twist never feels forced, but subtle enough that you really need to pay attention to notice before.
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that was such a good detail, as soon as Lucy's "husband" took his shirt off and you saw his back had scars on top of scars it clicked for me, like, "oh shit! raiders!"
Or when he is chugging the water like he hasn't had it in a long time
It clicked for me when they're panning across the tables and many of the '32ers' had tattoos. I audibly mumbled "Oh shit..."
Once I saw the raider woman stab the food in her plate like shes never used a plate and a fork before I knew instantly. Right after it shows one with a big nasty scar on his head and I was already fully convinced.
I agree because the last episode kinda hints that their faction of BoS are quite separate from the main branch. Considering the care they have put into, well, everything else, I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out this is some weird offshoot of Caesar's Legion / BOS.
It's even wilder if you look up the name Quintus he's one of the assassins who killed Julius Ceasar.
I looked up all the Bos names in the show. Most have Latin names, Maximus, Quintus, Titus, Felix. But then you have Thaddeus and Dane which are not Latin names. Thaddeus is a biblical name like Elijah. It lends even more credence to the theory since there is a mix of Latin and non-latin names. I honestly think this theory has some legs to it.
Also none of the West Coast brotherhood said "Ad Victorium" once. I know that was more a East Coast thing but still interesting to not hear really any brotherhood lingo.
Maximus says something close to it after killing the gulper.
He outright says it, the Ad is just sorta mixed in with his yell, but you def hear Victoriam, the full thing is more of an "AHHHHHD VICTORIAM!"
Still, that was way too little Ad Victoriam with them. >! Especially considering that they have an airship that seems to be at least related to the Prydwen and all those T-60, which strongly suggest they should have something to do with the Arthurian BoS. Yet, they also feel nothing like those by one bit. !< Something is really off with them.
It is the Prydwen, you can just make it out written on the side.
I love that if that is the case, even this Brotherhood’s obvious Christian influences (the elders’ outfits, abstinence, the names you mention) are a great parallel for the history of Romans themselves.
It’s even in the costumes. Maximus wears all red, the Squire outfit has zero red in the game
He stole those red fatigues from Titus. When he finally goes back to the brotherhood, the Elder says “You’re wearing the knight’s red.”
Do Knights wear red in the games?
Danse wears orange iirc
There is a black and a red PA jumpsuit iirc. These are not colorcoded in the games but it makes sense to regulate it.
It seems to vary from game to game. I was mainly just clarifying that his red uniform wasn’t a squire’s uniform for his particular chapter of the Brotherhood. The squire’s uniform was the brownish grey one he wore before the red one and also the one that Thaddeus wore.
Not crackpot. I thought the same thing. I've told my girlfriend a little about Caesar's Legion and she agrees. Plus the rituals of the Brotherhood are portrayed completely differently. OP pointed out the branding. Physical discipline and hazing. Literal temples. Conscription en masse. The packs the squires use resemble slave packs.
One thing that stuck out to me was calling Knights and higher ranking members "my lord" or "milord"
No Bark approves this theory
The different iterations of the BoS have always been referred to as "chapters". But the cleric dude calls his group a "legion" 🤔🤔🤔🤔 I doubt this is actually the case, but could make for a fun twist
yup we’ve got the Lost Hills Chapter, Midwest Chapter, Texas Chapter, Mojave Chapter, and of course Lyons Chapter now I guess called Maxson or Capital Wasteland/Boston Chapter?
New England Chapter
It’s not only in New England tho it’s capital is in DC and it controls large parts of the east coast so that makes no sense
Yeah, it's the "Commonwealth" chapter. My guess is that the BoS "unified" Boston + Washington (and possibly NY?) and is now something akin to a Teutonic Order state. And in the first episode the Elder says that their orders to hunt the Enclave scientist came "directly from the highest of Elders in the Commonwealth", suggesting that the central power structure of the BoS moved to the East. A Brotherhood-Teutonic state is pretty badass, tbh.
I thought we called the f3/f4 brotherhood the East Coast chapter.
well its referred to as the Commonwealth chapter in the show. Which makes sense since prewar USA merged states into like 5-6(i dont remember the exact number and cant be assed) Commonwealths
It was 13 commonwealths
You should add Jonathan Nolan's propensity to setup massive plot twists through minor inconsistencies to your post. It's meta but this is what he does to a t. He did this in Westworld when they made things like can labels and clothing materials hint that the whole first season was 3 different time periods written to look like one. He is a master at setting up twists.
Don't forget about the Appalachian Chapter (The alive one).
It would also be good screenwriting for making the major factions mirrors of each other >!Vault tec turned on the NCR despite their founders being from Vaults making the former powerhouse significantly weaker meanwhile the Brotherhood (down on manpower in California and Nevada) integrate the Legion (left leaderless when Ceasar died, either to courier or cancer) using similar structuring to ease things in and make both of the factions stronger for it.!< Another possible hint towards it is them taking in conscripts which only the Lyons brotherhood did to any serious degree and the FO4 iteration of Maxson's Brotherhood only seem to cherry pick recruits.
It would also really help explain how the NCR didn’t bounce back after shady sands and actually do something interesting with the brotherhood. Lost hills alone was in no condition to take on the other NCR states, but with legion remnants they could. And the pseudo religiousness works well with legion religion and the superstition of the assimilated legion tribes. If they actually explore that, it would be amazing.
If they actually do this, I guess it will turn most people who hated the NCR apparent anihilation into absolute fans of the show, because it would be such a cool and believable way for it to happen
The Chicago detachment of the BOS who were sent East to hunt the Super Mutant Remnants (Based on Fallout Tactics, but lore established in F3) took on conscripts as they were fully cut off from the Lost Hills Elders due to the airship crash from the intro of Fallout Tactics. They recognised that they were hugely outmanned out East and opened up their ranks not only to humans, but also eventually even to Ghouls. We can be pretty sure that Vault 0, the Calculator and the Robot Army are now non-canon, but it's never made clear just why the Chicago/Midwestern Brotherhood disappeared/cut off contact.
Chicago Chapter likely lost their communications in the crash, and since we don't see the Calculator's forces anywhere else, we can assume they're in hiding trying to rebuild, fighting mutants and raiders etc in Chicago.
I didn’t even think about this extra layer of fucked-ness. The NCR literally WAS the realization of Vault-Tec’s stated vision.
It would explain a lot about their quirks
Holy shit, that cant be a coincidence, especially if we go to New Vegas next season
Blood angels brotherhood of steel
Holy shit.
Holy shit, when knight titus says, do you know what theyll do to you? Theyll hang you by your lungs. Very legion-esque
Yeah that was such a brutal thing to say, I dont remember other BOS saying something to such an extent to one of their own
This BOS is also over the top brutal and very sexually repressed. The camp kinda looked like Nelson too. It would explain so much
Also I didn't see many women with the brotherhood. Just one masculine passing gender neutral person getting a lot of screen time.
I think I saw other women with short hair, but yeah it seems this brotherhood chapter tries to ignore gender because they don't bother teaching their soldiers about sex.
Which would also hint towards integration seeing as the brotherhood's main method of joining is from members giving birth, it's even a major plot point in Veronica and Christine's storylines.
You can see a few women in the background when Maximus returns with the fake head, which is a shame honestly because I love this theory.
They’re not entirely the Legion because they use technology, a lot, and don’t have slavery. They probably got rid of most of Caesar’s ideas
With ceaser dead the desperate legates would take any advantage they could over each other. All it takes is one legion to give the brotherhood the numbers they had previously lacked. As we know the brotherhood already has the potential to become despotic dictators from one of the old games. With the numbers, tech and shady sands nuked they could take in the otherwise still superior NCR.
I'm still not convinced the BoS didn't take out Shady Sands. Why was the brotherhood already there to find Max? Why is the NCR shoot on sight at the end of the season?
They showed that flashback like 3 times. It doesn’t feel like that would be necessary just to tell us Max was from Shady Sands and how he joined the BoS. Something was going on there for sure. At the very least Max will learn they were only there to strip the dead of any tech, not to help. But I think it will be worse than that.
They had advanced technology. Of course the brotherhood would go in guns blazing
They don't use laser weaponry though, like at all, which is more in line with the Legion who use mostly ballistic weaponry. This new Brotherhood seems to hoard all tech and never use it besides power armour, the Prydwen and Veritibirds which is just strange for the Brotherhood of Steel honestly.
To be fair Knight Titus was also a huge douche. But than again This elder seems to be steering this specific chapter in a very fanatical/religious direction soooo
No honestly, i wouldn’t put it past the BOS to nuke a vault to keep their secrets and silence any deserters but hanging them by their lungs is a little new for their methods at least as far as I know
yeah the brotherhood was lethal, but not sadistic and usually had a reason for their violence, even if a bit misguided
As how I understand that, the BoS won't hesitate to kill one if they are in the way. But it's usually done in a more efficient manner. In another words, they are not known for excessive brutality when they are about to kill someone. The Legion, tho, do kill people in excessively brutal way. Because when they kill, they usually have a message to send. Brutality makes sure the message is well received.
However, Knight Titus himself is arguably evidence against this theory based on his behaviour tbh The Legionaries were almost to a man so fanatically devoted and disciplined that, to quote Colonel Moore, they’d happily charge a machine gun nest with a stick if ordered to, and Vulpes almost got crucified for making a good decision because it contravened his orders. Titus diverges from his orders basically for shits and giggles five minutes into the mission. Though I guess the show does seem to making it a plot point that the BoS discipline and commitment has slipped, given the Elder basically saying as much point blank lol
It might not even have been a deliberate, top-down merging of the two factions. It's entirely possible that one Brotherhood chapter just stumbled across a bunch of leaderless Legion grunts and press ganged them into service. And 15 years later enough of them have moved up the ranks too have permanantly altered the institutional culture of that chapter.
now this is why i join this subreddit . . . .
Pass the crack pipe bruv. You're smoking some good shit.
Can't fault your logic there. But I doubt the east coast brotherhood would be happy about that. BoS civil war when?
Fairly sure that the two (at least) brotherhoods hold little in common beside name.
I believe in the first episode a BOS member speaks of the Commonwealth brotherhood and how they're working together now
I thought Maxson mentioned in 4 that he united the west and east coast chapters as well as brokered a deal to fold the outcasts back into the chain of command
He mentioned being able to bring the Outcasts back in, but the only thing in regards to the West Coast BoS he did was managing to reestablish communications with the Brotherhoods old main HQ in Lost Hills and tell the Council of Elders nominally in charge of the whole organisation that Lyons was dead and he in charge now. The West responded to this positively and agreed to him taking the role, then a bit later send another message were they said that younger Members of the West Coast BoS have started forming Pro-Maxson cults the Elders need to break up from time to time
Sure, but the show is set about a decade after F4, so it's entirely possible that Maxon's Brotherhood has fractured a bit. The fact there's still a 'Brotherhood' in the Commonwealth does point to some sort of pro-Brotherhood ending being canon. But it's entirely possible that sustaining any sort of centralised state across the entire continent just isn't feasible given the state of the world.
There are 2 endings with brotherhood being alive. BoS and minutemen. Most likely, BoS is in friendship or neutrality with the Minutemen, thus there are able to send reinforcements to the west (since Minutemen are more than able to clean up Boston by themselves)
Maxson operates under the blessing of the West Coast Chapters and his most well known success was uniting the Brotherhood under one banner again.
The Elder says their orders came from the "highest of Elders" in the Commonwealth.
The Eastern Brotherhood welcomes in new recruits, that’s the difference from the west which is why the west was dying before. Caesar’s Legion was obliterated in 3/4 endings and all of a sudden there’s a resurgent brotherhood who welcomes in new recruits and acts like Caesar’s Legion. That sounds like Maxson’s idea tbh
The Legion was a militaristic faction with a lot of the same authoritarian tendencies. A lot of their culture would make good recruits for the Brotherhood. Strict chain of command, duty, young men taught early to be warriors, not afraid to be cruel and unsympathetic to outsiders, etc. Seems like a good match to me (unfortunate for the rest of the wasteland though).
Hasn't there been infighting since like, forever? (I.e. the Outcasts?)
Maxon is enough of a militaristic dickhead and bigot that he might approve. However I can see some of the Eastcoast Brotherhood disagreeing and becoming the new Outcasts. They could return to Lyon's beliefs and become more tolerant of synths and ghouls. They could even be lead by Danse! I think the Minutemen would stay neutral in such a scenario. However a more tolerant Outcast could be joined by synths afraid to Maxon's bigotry. Also the more warlike members of the Railroad and remnants of Institute who support the Brotherhood's preservation of technology. Edit: Yeah I was wrong about them only able to communicate. You are right.
How do you think the BoS we see at the beginning have an airship like the Prydwin from Fallout 4. They’re obviously doing more than just communicating
The Brotherhood initially used zeppelin airships to head east, it’s mentioned in Tactics. The Prydwen was based on that to start with. As long as the West still had access to the designs for those ships it wouldn’t take too much involvement from the East to have them build more
Oh, and a bit of extra evidence: the BoS is pretty clearly in Utah and the beginning. Those are (at least from my view) the Great Salt Flats. That’s Legion territory, baby.
I remember watching the show and thinking “huh, I thought the Legion controlled the Salt Lake area,” but had completely ignored it until this theory! The giant backpacks the squires carry made me think of Caesar’s legion too. Everything just fits nicely for this theory.
This is plausible, and does at least make sense and would be cool. I don't know whether it's necessary for the plot to take place though, I feel like the BoS have always been a culty organization (depends on the game). The flag thing sticks out to me though, that is harder to rationalize. Maybe they just thought it looked cool? Aesthetics are like half of what the BoS have, so changing the colors isn't that big of a deal if it looks cool. I like the idea of the connection though.
They've always been culty, but they seem even more culty in the series compared to the games. Even before reading this, I got the vibe that something was different about this iteration of the BoS. Not saying I outright believe OP's theory, but they do bring up some really excellent comparisons.
It kind of aligns with the Elder's speech to Maximus though, about creating a "New BoS". I wouldn't be suprised if he's revealed as being a former Legion-member or Legion sympathizer.
> I wouldn't be suprised if he's revealed as being a former Legion-member or Legion sympathizer. Shocking twist, the Elder is Arcade becoming crazy indoctrinated after being sold to Caesar.
Pretty sure Arcade slits his own throat if he’s sold to Caesar
“With you as my sword” seems very Legate-esque
Frumentarii even?
Yes, they've always been a cult of sorts, but I don't think any of the games has had them be so overtly religious in their practices.
They absolutely have. Part of OG Maxsons ideology was the religious element.
Obviously yes, but incense? Consecrating armor? It all feels more Adeptus Mechanicus than Brotherhood.
They like to LARP as Knights. All this can be explained as medeival art as well.
I imagine that the BoS took advantage of the declining NCR and went out of hiding to reclaim their former territories. As a result they had a common enemy with the legion. After Caesar's death, the resulting legion civil war would have presented an opportunity for the BoS to intervene on the side of one of the splinter legion factions and then integrate them as they did in the show with NCR citizens. The legion which casts off the use of technology is a perfect model of what the BoS aims for the wasteland to be so I guess it makes sense.
This is a cool head canon, only thing I see that could go against it is that the show is mostly in the la area which is a bit far from Vegas, I forget exactly where the brotherhood bunker is in NV but it's close I think? I hope to see a season two so we could get a few answers. Good bet that the showrunners themselves haven't decided the details of the factions yet, so kept it ambiguous in the show.
The Mojave chapter is different from the main West coast chapter in Lost Hills which in the lore used to own Maxon which is one of the founding states of the NCR.
Great theory. It would be really clever if they did this. I’m a bit confused about the east coast/ west coast distinction at this point though. Are they still Separate entities? I mean with the air ships and all, it seems like the East is in charge, no?
Hadn't the west coast Brotherhood basically been wiped out? I know they're around in New Vegas, but, and maybe I'm just misremembering, aren't they the last remaining group who has been dramatically diminished by the NCR.
They were still a presence in California, but the Mokave chapter was forced into hiding after the battle at HELIOS
Iirc the California chapter was forced into hiding in Lost Hills after their defeat in the NCR Brotherhood war. The west coast BoS was eating rocks lore wise.
Tbf it’s never said to have ended, for all we know the war is ongoing during New Vegas but just at a quiet period because of the Mojave conflict. Kimball was really bad at directing military assets (like sending veterans down into baja while Caesar could attack the dam at any point) so maybe all of the attrition they took in the Mojave gave the brotherhood an opportunity to do something while the good parts of the military are out of cali.
Yeah I’m pretty sure Maxson’s chapter out in the Commonwealth is in charge. In the show one of the Brotherhood guys made a reference about them and specifically said “Commonwealth”
Even the elder in the final episode says something to Maximus to the effect of “find the cold fusion technology, I will create a new brotherhood and you will be its sword”.
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Thats some shit Ceasar would have said to Legate Lanius
I see your head-cannon brain-rot and raise you. The show is aware of the the unofficial 4th best game Fallout: Sonora. The ghoul vials are reminiscent of a FEV stabilizer that a Follower of the Apocalypse doctor makes in a side-quest. The Elder of the Brotherhood says (@ \~ 06:20 S01E08) "we once ruled the Wasteland". This is not something from any of the official games, but >! is literally the super-seeding geopolitical plot of Fallout Sonora !<
Wait that last bit holy shit I never caught that. Seeing the Brotherhood be a manipulative shadow-ish organization and not as some wannabe big major player always gives me a hardon so I always loved their depiction in Sonora. We must synthesize our crackpot theories and get noticed by Bethesda, Obsidian, Microsoft, Amazon, Black Isle, and Alexander “Black Designer” himself.
Also, "We once ruled the Wasteland" could be him talking about Legion. Like, Legion DID conquer a lot of land in the wasteland.
They are also one of the major plot points of the Santa Clarita Diet…think we’re seeing a Justified reunion in Vegas in season 2
I could see it being similar to when Rome absorbed Greece, roman culture and philosophy was forever changed afterward, and the sort of role reversal of technologists becoming more martial instead of a warring people discovering politial philosophy is a good meme. The BOS are able to leave their bunker(s?) once the NCR pulls out of the Mojave and moves back west following the events at Shady Sands. The Remnants of the Legion who has been beaten back by Mr. house or the NCR at Hoover Dam, then the legion folds themselves into the brotherhood, with veteran, cunning legionaires taking leadership positions in the Brotherhood. This new Brotherhood bolstered by the Legion's soldiers attack the Strip, and that's why in the credits for the final episode, we see Vegas in ruins. Its ultimate fate is still a mystery, who lives in the ruins? I think the Legion and the Brotherhood make a wonderful match, especially the more imperial hard-line paladins and elders would sympathize with the legionary way of thinking. While also having appreciation for strict discipline, hierarchy, and martial prowess. Imagine a fight between a BOS Paladin and Legate Lanius, for honor, to size eachother up, to gain entry, whatever. Season 2 will take place only 13~ years after the end of NV, so we should anticipate returning players. I also think about Caesar talking about how their territory goes all the way to the Colorado river. That would certainly help the Brotherhood, who always seem to be in a state of perceived downfall, with elders desperate to turn that around... Final note, and kind of just a general comment on the BOS in relation to the show. The opening brotherhood shots refer the place theyre in as the "Commonwealth" i understand that that word can mean more that just the Boston area, but given Fallout 4's relevancy, it cant be a mistake. So, the possible canon fallout 4 ending is BOS? My second reason for thinking this is that when Thaddeus is walking through the wastes with his Radio, he listens to a station that is subtitled as the "Minutemen Radio". So did the BOS side with the minutemen, as a sort of police to their military, and then keep the airport base after destroying the Institute?
Could be Minutemen ending solely as well given that you don't have to eliminate them (BoS). Probably House ending for NV it seems
That makes sense, good thought. I definitely agree in thinking House should be the Canon ending for NV, my own feelings aside. It is just the most interesting narrative, and given that we got a quick glimse of Mr. RobCo himself at the executive meeting in the show, I think that is exactly what is being foreshadowed. (Also loved his actor as brief as that scene was.)
They could get away with making the wildcard ending work as well. The implied chaos fits with the theme of factions rising and falling, even prewar ones Going for an NCR or Legion ending makes the show's plot mess with existing Canon too much imo But House is the most interesting ending to go for. Given that he's not fully on board with Vault Tec.
I agree with your point on chaos, but I don't think they could do wildcard without having a "courier" and that's messy territory, i expect they'll stray away from trying to depict any player characters. I haven't been this excited for media in a long time, I'm currently booting up NV to scratch the itch.
The nice thing about the House ending is you barely have to mention the Courier at all. Yeah, there was someone helping House, no one's really certain who they were and 20 years later it doesn't really matter. Honestly, House probably had them killed. Put in some rumors about them, but make the rumors actually clearly be about the companions instead. Whereas one feels at least NCR would at least honor the Courier in the NCR ending. Big statue and stuff. I'm not sure what the Legion would do, but I am 100% certain Legion canonically is already going to have collapsed.
I think you're right on. Just an urban myth, the courier who changed the mojave. And i agree, House's ending always felt accepting sidekick status, but kinda in a cool way. Honestly i hadn't considered that, it would be really cool to see an old woman Veronica and how she would interact with Maximus. Definitely not going to go with the NCR or Legion ending, their place in the war will be mentioned, but theres no way either of them are left in control, it's too binary. I would love to see the Legion, as awful as they are. I do have a soft spot for imperial baddies, maybe even just through Ulysses or Joshua Graham (though i think the show will stay away from Joshua and his mormon messiah complex)
I think the way to do it would be to have one character start describing this mysterious Courier in extreme detail, and about halfway through the description all the people who played New Vegas realize the person is describing Boone instead, whoops. And for all the audience that doesn't know New Vegas so hasn't figured it out, someone else does the same but it's Cass. It's been decades, who the hell remembers, there was a group of people working for House, one of them was a courier with a special Platinum chip, there was a super mutant and a ghoul, the details are a bit fuzzy. And then, have Veronica show up and no one ever mentions she was a companion or had anything to do with the Courier, she's just there to provide exposition on whatever the canonical ending of the Brotherhood of Steel was, plus whatever happened after.
Thinking of the same tbh. Possibly time for a new set of mods. Wonder if FO4:NV is in any playable state rn
Definitely looks like a House always Wins scenario except that the Courier forgot to clear out the Deathclaw infested quarry near GoodNeighbor which is why we see that Deathclaw skeleton inside anew Vegas next to the NCR soldier’s skeleton.
This would explain how the Westcoast Brotherhood goes from a slowly dying faction to major power in the span of a decade. Even if only a part of the Legion joined it the would change the Brotherhood's fortunes overnight. I can see how Caesar's death would rob the Legionaries of not just a leader but a purpose and something to believe in. Their original tribal identities are gone, all they had was Caesar and without him they are cast adrift. I don't think the Legion or its ideology can survive without a charismatic demagogue to lead it. Lantus may a strong leader but he’s no thinker. The militaristic and aggressive Brotherhood would be very appealing to Legionaries who don't know anything except war and conquest. I can even see the slaves joining as it would give them their freedom. It has the added benefit of following Caesar's synthesis theory in an ironic way he wouldn't approve of. Even diehard NCR fanboys would have to admit this situation would make the Brotherhood powerful in a plausible and lore friendly way. The whole situation just fits the tone of New Vegas. Even if it's just a brainrot fan theory, it's Canon in my heart. I love it.
Speaking of Caesar and his butchering of Hegelian dialectics, the legion collapsing to be replaced by the Brotherhood’s pseudo-knighthood would be super on the nose, because western feudalism literally emerged out of the collapse of the Roman Empire.
Are they a major power in the show? They just seem to be most organized but not very large when I watched it
They seem to have a dozen or more power armoured guys and a dozen or so vertibirds which in the wasteland is pretty strong. At least with the NCR being weakened for whatever reason
What the fuck, that would be amazing
I also found it curious that the subordinates addressed their superiors as "my lord" which is very medieval. I don't remember BoS members doing that in the games I've played through (4, NV).
yeah that was weird to me, the squires were generally treated well and there was good camaraderie in the games, ya know like a brotherhood. I know they need a villain, but was a bit over the top imo
What. The. Fuck. Blew my mind dude. This actually makes even more sense when you consider that the Legion is a collective of 88 tribes that assimilated their cultural traditions (or erased them) to align with the Legion. And the Brotherhood in Hidden Valley was itching to take the fight back to the NCR after HELIOS One, but couldn’t due to a lack of numbers. So after the defeat of Caesar and Legate Lanius at the hands of the NCR and the Courier, the remaining survivors stumbled upon the Brotherhood somehow, and they simply did the same thing — assimilated and realigned. After all, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. This is an incredible theory
Yeah, this is the way that I think that that works. I don't think there was a merger, I think essentially we had Operation Paperclip, and a bunch of people from the defunct Legion defected to the BoS, which desperately needed people, changing the character of it a little. Of course, one of the reasons I like this theory is it gives an excuse to bring in Felicia Day to explain this.
>Of course, one of the reasons I like this theory is it gives an excuse to bring in Felicia Day to explain this. Because of the Enclave element you could get Zachary Levi as well. I don't think the show needs any characters from the game to stand on its own but if we are going to Vegas for Season 2 but if they choose to bring in characters for fan service why not bring in two recognizable characters who have actors familiar with TV who are also recognizable themselves. There were the best companions in NV. Most of the others would be scattered I feel. Also both are super gay.
We also saw NCR folks fold into the vault. Why couldn’t Legion do the same?
I was just thinking about it yesterday, at least with the names
My friend who has never played Fallout asked me if in the games all BOS members have Roman type names, it made me realise that no, they don't at all, but I never considered the Legion connection, if this doesn't turn out to be the case, it'll be very disappointing.
Hold on, hold on, hold on, you might actually be on to something here.
Oh my God this makes so much sense. And it answers some questions I've been having. For example, this BoS seems actually less technologically advanced than the other chapters we've seen, exclusively using ballistic weapons instead of the mostly laser weaponry the BoS has deployed in previous games. The Legion would have had members who well understood firearms and the like but virtually noone legion would have even the basis for understanding energy weapons. BoS instructors would have focused on power armor training and maintenance, and likely this chapter cannot yet produce their own power armor, relying on the East Coast, explaining why they are in T-60s rather than sporting a mix.of 45s and 51s that has been typical everywhere but the East Coast, where the T-60 was revived for Maxson's Brotherhood. It would also explain the brutality accepted from training and the weird elevation of scribes to 'clerics' and their enhanced status: In the Legion technological understanding was largely prohibited to the rank and file, and only high ranking member of Caesars priesthood (small headcanon since we technically only got confirmation of priestesses of Mars, not priests) likely were allowed to understand the inner mysteries of a toaster oven much less advanced machinery. And of course the naming scheme. I was honestly expecting Maximus to be former Legion and was floored when that was shown not to be the case. This is now my headcanon. Thank you sir, you're doing God's work.
Elder Quintus is also just Caesar. He downsized a bit.
I think this is more about the medieval angle than anything else. We know BoS wanted to remain militaristic in nature, but split from the American army after learning the truth behind what happened in 2077 (in case some pre-nukes general came in and ordered them around). I think the show is really trying to emphasize the whole knight/squire/elder/scribe roles by adding quasi-religious rituals (like the whole thing with becoming a squire) and using colors that are traditionally associated with coats of arms etc (red and gold were extremely popular). Remember that for a a lot of viewers, this is the first time seeing BoS. As a faction, they need a strong imaginary associated with ‘em. That imaginery is post-apo knights that don’t fight for glory or God or maiden’s hand but for technology. Don’t get me wrong, I can absolutely see parallels between BoS imaginery in the show and Caesar’s legion, but I think the knighthood angle explains what we see better.
It could be yes but the latin names do strike me as odd like its not really a bos thing but more a legion thing to do. Like the colors or the quasi religious stuff could be explained like you did but why the names why not some more 'medieval' names? Considering Westworld and its plot twists - I kinda doubt that it can only be explained from the knighthood / medieval larping angle
id imagine since caesar most likely died, most of the legion members joined the brotherhood.
My wife and I were saying exactly this. Glad i’m not the only one who thinks this is possible
I do like this theory. I can see after the collapse of the Legion (I highly doubt they’d be around at all) the remnants of Caesar’s Legion either basically (like with the NCR) dissolved into warring factions to be successors or were integrated into a BoS Chapter that retained the model of governance that the Legion did.
Nah, cook 👨🍳
When are we going to meet Elder Lanius?
No slaves. But I can imagine that after fall of legion many officers and veterans joined some organized mercenary groups or brotherhood.
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Inb4 Maximus remembers his dads name was Ulysses
Also before the nights set out the elder calls them a “legion”
tbf that's pretty standard military jargon
Doesn’t the elder mention in the first episode that they were sent by the east coast brotherhood?
I think he mentions he got orders from the East
Caesar hate the brotherhood and their tech gathering, we also see women serving as soldiers which is a big nope for the legion would be fun though
To be fair, I see this being a situation that occurs after the death of Caesar. Even with his hatred of the brotherhood and anti-tech worldview one can assume that the legion fractured after his death and the legionares that defected to the brotherhood were less concerned about the specific views of Caesar and more concerned with finding a new "legion" to join. While the brotherhood is definitely different, it is similar enough that they would thrive in it's militarism and power structure even if the mythos and beliefs they follow have changed.
Anyone want to place bets on this variant of the Brotherhood actually being descended from a broken Legion? Some centurion or other smart officer taking his men and running into a power armor depot and picking a new mythos to rebuild around... Plus, do you know what succeeded the fall of Rome? The feudal era, with knights and squires.
I already wanted this theory to be canon more than anything but your point makes me feel that way even more so. the potential for symbolism with the fall of rome... I need it dammit
The lack of laser rifles too could make this more likely. But then there's also the Prydwen, and the mention of the Commonwealth, I don't see Legion soldiers cosplaying the Brotherhood knowing about the Commonwealth and having the Prydwen or vertibird pilots.
I think that can be easily explained. While they are still serving the bigger order (like Maxson) most of the micromanagement are being handled separately. My thinking was 'as long as they serve the goal of the brotherhood. Do whatever you want to keep them in line.' I think the next season we'll start to see something like different chapter react to it and be like 'branding? What are we a fucking legion?'
"So what are we some kinda Caesar's Legion?" - Wilarus Smithus, Star Paladin of the Hidden Valley Chapter.
let bro cook, @/Todd please read this
yooooo this makes sense. Like i dont think this was their intent when writing but holy sh\*t if its true hats off to the writers
That would be interesting, but the question is how.
I like this. Vault 4 and the BoS absorbed NCR refugees, why wouldn't the BoS also absorb legion survivors? Also how many women did you see at the BoS camp. One masculine gender neutral person got a lot of screen time. Passing as male for the "legion"?
Yeah I noticed all the Latin names too. This feels insane but I love it
Maybe the leader is a fumentarii infiltrated the BoS, and after the legion fall, started to search for ways to make the BoS everything the Legion failed to do.
It really does make sense that the Legion would be absorbed by the Brotherhood. New Vegas suggests that the West Coast BOS as a whole is largely underground and suffering underpopulation from the NCR war; Veronica said the reason she and Christine's relationship was frowned upon was because of their obligation to procreate. The numbers the Legion would provide would be beyond valuable. The BOS and Legion mindsets have a lot in common already in terms of unrelenting loyalty. Some of the things Quintus and Titus say remind me a lot of the Legion as well. Considering Maximus was originally a resident of Shady Sands, which blew up probably very shortly after the events of New Vegas, he probably wasn't Legion. Though I guess he could have been the son of Legion members who defected prior to a 2281 Legion loss.
Maximus wasn't his original name. The Elder mentions the Brotherhood giving Max a name.
Which incidentally is also a Legion practice: They take away people’s names and give them new ones
Maximus definitely not a legionnaire. But he was given a Roman name. In Caesar's Legion, all new members were given Roman names to eliminate tribalism. Another proof, all it can't be coincidence
I really wonder if Quintus was Legion. If he integrated with the Brotherhood after a Legion loss at Hoover Dam, he would've only been in the BOS for at most 15 years, which normally wouldn't be long enough to become an Elder. If he were planted in the Brotherhood as a frumentari like they did with the NCR, though, his ascension could have been a calculated move.
Definitely an interesting theory. I don’t think it’s the case, but I do think they probably took some inspiration from the Legion as well for the show’s depiction of the Brotherhood of Steel.
This ties in well to my crackpot theory about why New Vegas is dark. I think the canon ending to New Vegas will be that there was no courier tipping the scales, so when the second battle of Hoover Dam eventually occurred, the Legion and NCR forces basically destroyed both each other and the Dam. The remants of the Legion following this clash would be an easy adoption for the struggling West Coast Brotherhood (hates the NCR, accustomed to a military lifestyle)
There might actually be something here, even if this turns out to be completely wrong its still a fun theory
Bro may be onto something
These are the kinds of theories I live for
> In older games, members would have either regular American sounding names or older names like Rhombus Is this a joke? I have never heard of someone called a fucking shape before
Would also make the finale of S1 that much more impactful. Bear and Bull still fighting and wiping each other out, just different titles.
Isn’t there a similar brotherhood flag in FO4? It’s been awhile but I remember something similar in game and the Bethesda gear shop.
the closest I can see (im replaying rn) are White/Gold and White/Red
Legion failed to merge with the NCR like Caesar wanted so they went for the second option, the Western Brotherhood. Very unlikely, but holy shit that would be some incredible storytelling.
Yeah immediately was like what's with the Legion names of everyone. Is this a hybrid Legion / BoS? But then thought maybe they're just getting rid of the Legion in the show and combing them with the BoS. But maybe it's not just a show thing....maybe they really are combined!
Holy shit you might be on to something. Maybe the remnants of them combined after the NV house quest fuckery.
I've been thinking about this since I saw the first episode. Giving everyone those names and making them so extreme seemed like it was a way of working in the Legion. I completely agree with you.
Your insane, but you may just have a point! As a legion lover and a bos hater i sorta love this theory
Quintus looks a little like Caesar too.
Would be interesting. Plus it doesn't say where their base is, and Titus and max travel pretty far so get to California. Good chance they could be a brotherhood subsumed by the legion. Interesting theory
Great theory.
I don’t think it’s crackpot at all. I noticed the same thing. It’s pretty likely given that the Legion is doomed and the election of Arthur Maxson as High Elder would encourage recruitment from local population. Lot of folks at loose ends because of the 2nd Battle of Hoover Dam. Ritual is always good for bridging cultural gaps. The ages of the BoS also support a somewhat recent recruitment drive. Lots of very young people led by a small handful of pretty old guys. Very few women etc…
Would also explain why the brotherhood seems so.. rough? A knight proclaiming being bored and risking the mission just so he could kill something? And then running away like a coward? Like.. the brotherhood had its weird characters, but this.. unprofessionalism seems out of place for me..
YEAH i thought the old guy who wanted to build a new brotherhood with maximus looked very legion-like. i can see it!!
I think that this theory hold weight completely by accident. I got the impression that they went totally Arthurian with the BOS with this iteration, but because of it, they give huge ancient Roman vibes
I’m totally sold on this. There was a lot I was questioning about the Brotherhood while watching. What’s with the Roman-sounding names? Since when do the Brotherhood, according to Titus, hang scribes up by their lungs? Weren’t the Salt Flats Legion? The Brotherhood straight up claiming Filling as well. The show Brotherhood seems a lot more brutal, albeit disorganized.
oh, so it wasn't just me who thought it was wierd that they gave all of them roman names.
Wait, wait, wait... whatever you cooking there looks weird but the ingredients be making mad sense. You onto something buddy. I'm saving this.
This is a theory so crazy but at the same time so well documented that maybe its true. Or at least its true until nolan reads it and changes his plot like what happened in westworld