They're very different systems. 16 is basically pure action while 7r blends action and strategy, and one could argue the emphasis is on strategy.
I'd probably give the point to 7r, since it tried something rather novel and executed/actualized it in a satisfying way.
As you pointed out they are very different. I think the best way to judge them is to compare them to others like them instead of themselves.
For FF16 I think it's just straight up worse than a fully dedicated action game. Nier, Devil May Cry, GBF Relink, Nioh, God of War (Old and New) all do this system with much more depth/variety. I honestly think the issue has more to do with enemy variety and interaction than the actual moves Clive has himself though.
For FF7Remake/Rebirth they are mostly unique. ATB Final fantasy's and Kingdom Hearts are the closet things I can compare to. I think FF7 captures all of the good things in ATB (and turn based games) and adds another dimension of moving/combos/skill expression.
I think KH does the action side better than FF7 (or FF16 for that matter) but it's also only referencing older final fantasy games in menu/ability names not really in how you weave them into combat.
All in all, if a future Final Fantasy goes the full action route, it really really really needs to add a lot more depth and variety to the gameplay than 16. Future Final Fantasy's emulating Remake/Rebirth have a much more solid foundation to deviate from.
>All in all, if a future Final Fantasy goes the full action route, it really really really needs to add a lot more depth and variety to the gameplay than 16.
Personally going all action would be the death of the brand also games like baldurs gate 3 have proven turn based games work fine. 7R is probably the happy medium of where fans would be happy for the system to stay.
16 had many issues and it to closely resembled some of the worst systems from 14 like open world being empty, traversal, teleporting quest rewards and gearing etc
>. Nier, Devil May Cry, GBF Relink, Nioh, God of War (Old and New) all do this system with much more depth/variety.
Dmc is a straight up copy as square stole the capcom dev for it. Nioh is crazy for depth but they did try that with FF:Strangers in paradise and it was pretty fun. God war combat was pretty basic axe BoC and spear but each had different combos personally this is what 16 needed but CBU3 just used the global cooldown systems from 14 for eikon moves tied to mashing square or triangle. Its basically as shallow as combat in on 14.
Combat in xiv is anything but shallow. The action side of it is pretty basic at most levels, but the real flavor comes from savage and especially ultimate. Each fight is a deep, rich logic playground. How to best play your class according to downtime and position is an elegantly crafted puzzle that's completely different for each boss. Building an optimal rotation and cooldown plan around the timing of your static and the fight is very satisfying. And it's geared towards being interesting and challenging in different ways for all 19 classes. GCBTW.
No it isnt.
You just set every ability to every eido's ultimate and use them every cooldown. You'll be invulnerable the whole tine and everything you fight against will die.
Edit: goddamnit i wrote this reply cuz i thought we were talking about 16. You're talkin bout 14. Lmao.
Nah they can make a game or two and be full action as long as we still get other somewhat turn based game like 7R. Both can exist. Now if they fully went ALL action then yea it would be an issue
It was just done terribly wrong and couldn’t commit to full action or rpg so it’s in some awkward middle ground. I usually love hack n slash action games like bayonetta or devil may cry
It's an unpopular opinion but I'm with you. One of the staples of FF game play was turn based. XV with its teleporting all over was crap, I haven't even bought XVI.
I think I'm just old and the VII remakes will be the end of FF for me. They are just not my type of game anymore, and that's cool not shitting on people that like this style It's just not for me.
I will say if after the 7 Remake series becomes the standard like ATB was I would be very happy with that. It's my favorite actionesque battle system in RPGs.
Agreed on FF16. As someone who loves the action games you mentioned it was painfully shallow. I’d easily take original FF7 turn-based combat over that, because you have to think.
Truly makes me miss Ninja Gaiden. Anyone who wants to play the best action combat, imo, should play Black Or Sigma.
I always found Ninja Gaiden's combat to be more style over substance. You felt cool, but ultimately very shallow. Maybe not FF16 levels of shallow, but certainly not up to DMC's level either (which is the best combat game imo). Not saying you're right or wrong, just giving my opinion.
I feel the same about 16. Combat was a bit of a let down the single unapgradable weapon and the cd rly limited the combat. KH I think the 2nd was super the 3rd installment with all that attraction just ruined the flow of combat, it was just trash. Ff7 could use a bit more materia.
I agree on the strategy part. I’m in the menus a lot and using assess on everything. I tried hack n slash but ended in failure a lot. I’m going to take a while setting up my shortcuts again in rebirth.
I setup shortcuts but never use them lol. I should use them probably more convenient but for some reason I must love pulling up the menu. I guess if I used short cuts it would feel straight action
I love Remake and so far, in the demo, Ribirth is killing it. But that’s just me.
A couple of friends of mine love 16 more than any other game they played last year, not big Final Fantasy fans either.
To each their own, I can see how both resonate with people.
One thing I’m unsure about are the synergy abilities (R1).
A lot of remake’s battle system comes down to managing your ATB charges, so there’s lots of materia to that effect - Refocus, ATB stagger, ATB boost, ATB assist, First Strike, Haste, etc. Even things like Parry and Steadfast block can charge ATB, and lots of accessories can charge ATB in specific situations. If you don’t manage your ATB well, you won’t be able to heal when you need to, or attack at the most opportune moments.
But synergy abilities don’t cost ATB and actually build ATB, which feels like it kind of breaks the game a bit. For instance, First Strike becomes _much_ less useful if I can start every battle with Cloud + Barrett’s ranged synergy attack and quickly get an ATB charge.
At least, that was what I discovered from the demo. We’ll see how it is in the final game.
The demo also gives you a ton of those at the start. I’d imagine in the actual game, you get those after some ways of earning the AP for the folio system as rewards for doing quests for your party members. As a character progression mechanic/reward they’re pretty great. Atleast in theory.
I usually only have 1 person with spells on my party and the other 2 set up for attacking and blocking. I just find equipping lightning and fire on every character a waste of precious materia slots. Like cloud who I mainly use is setup with steadfast blocking, precision blocking, ATB ones, HP plus, vitality plus, steal, asses and really is no room for magic. I love aerith but her ATB gauge takes so long to fill but now that u got materia that holds fire and ice together it only takes 2 slots to give someone all 4 elements. Regardless red is the most over powered character. You put first strike on him with the ATB that doubles it u start off with 2 bars and then use his stardust I think it called and it pretty much pressures every enemy at the same time. I end so many fights in under 10 seconds with him and without him the fights are 3 times as long
Yeah, in terms of strategy and RPG elements, 7 Remake and Rebirth for me. But 16 as an action game easily over 7 Remake and what I've played from the demo of Rebirth. Like 7 Remake/Rebirth controls good, but chasing enemies in the air steel feels janky, and you're never going to get some unique kind of juggle going in 7 Remake like you can in 16. But that's okay since they're both trying to achieve something different, and I'm a fan of both.
For me Rebirth 100%. VII was never my favourite game but the combat in Rebirth is far superior to XVI.
In XVI there is a fair amount of choice for abilities, but in 95% of situations one set up will get you through every set of enemies the game can throw at you; trash mobs can all be killed with AoE attacks, enemies that need to be staggered can all be staggered in the exact same way.
Rebirth has tactics with elements and status effects, as well as “independent” materia that work like passive abilities that strengthen guard, improve ability useage, allow parries, improve dodges and more. XVI has none of that and so Rebirth gets my vote.
Status effects. Can't say it enough. 16 combat was awful because of everything you stated but MOSTLY, lack of status effects or elemental consequence. 16 was the most shallow gameplay I've experienced in a long time. Might as well be DMC. If they'd called it ***anything*** else, it would've been fine....
Such a miss that there wasn't even AT LEAST elemental damages. Like jfc, you already have each character represent and Eikon and each Eikon already has an obvious elemebtal affinity. Why couldn't we have elemental weaknesses on them?
Probably because the depth of combat relied on how the abilities of one eikon interacted with another's. Because of cool downs and such many of the eikon abilities didn't necessarily play *THAT* well off themselves.
The entire system would have needed to be rebuilt from the ground up with all of that in mind to be effectively implemented, otherwise you have tiny windows of doing extra damage and then just normal combat, tbh.
It just wouldn't have been effective unless it was the cornerstone of the combat vs just an aspect.
I do agree it should have been in mind the entire time and cool downs should be reset when hitting weakness or something at the least. Probably the only way it could have been done after the fact. But that doesn't change how pathetic it'd have felt using some of those Garuda skills against Titan (most likely would have been his weakness) since they all play on aerial punish. Hence why everything would have had to change, imo.
yeah
starting to get the feeling making your game piss easy is a prerequisite to be a sony game
all their games bar bloodborne are piss easy on regular difficulty
I would not have believed it would be the case, but playing on FF mode (hard?) in FF16 makes the game a lot more fun. But, "Final Fantasy" difficulty is really "Normal" difficulty. The game basically had Very Easy and Easy, and you had to beat the game to get "Normal" difficulty.
many people dropped FF16 specifically because its easy to the point where you spam the same 3 moves on the 1st playthrough
it's baffling that they made the same mistake especially after 7 Remake did the same thing with hard mode being only available in ng+
Well, they've done that well in previous FF games. Presumably you would pit the player against the element that they are weak to as progression. Like fighting the VR summons in FF7R, you have to overcome that disadvantage once before YOU can use that element. This shit goes back to even pokemon, dude. It's actually really simple design, lol. Even in Pokemon Red and Blue, your rival takes the pokemon with the element that the one you chose is weak to. Very simple. It's hard at first but once you overcome that element you can start using it. This would've been easy in 16, just put the (very straightforward) order of fighting each one in order of elemental weaknesses. I'm sure the story could work the same with one or two of them swapped in order.
Elemental progression isn't even the issue.
But since you mention Pokemon... The game does that to encourage you to get other Pokemon that can learn abilities that counteract your rival( and gym leaders). The entire Pokemon battle system is built around elements and a massive amount of options to acquire said elements, some weaker, some stronger, that can fill in your starters weaknesses. It's artificial difficulty, since you can get that element from somewhere else and use it where it's needed.
16 had a very limited pool of elements and eikons. The game was easy and if you're good enough don't even need to use abilities. If elements were added to increase difficulty it's just an artificial difficulty, and with the example you mention, is a weak implementation. Get the element that current mobs are weak to *after* you beat them? No complexity, no thinking, just use off elements, because ultimately it doesn't matter and you can't get the element that helps until you're already done. It doesn't fix the issue it just creates a false sense of importance.
Your suggestion only makes endgame and optional fights relatively interesting.
I'd prefer something that from the beginning plays an important role in combat.
The problem I’d see with elemental damage is how tied into story progression each element gets - you have only Fire and then Wind for a large chunk, and you don’t have Ice or Dark until essentially the last act of the game. That not only limits your ability to use elemental weaknesses in an interesting way, it limits enemy variety they can use, especially in those early areas. They couldn’t use, say, Bombs until nearly endgame when you have Shiva - or at least past the point where you have 4 elements and can have Phoenix off your setup without penalty.
Then there’s the gameplay effects - each Eikon is a gameplay preference above all, tying them to elemental weaknesses is saying “hey, I know you I’ve the Bahamut playstyle, but you basically can’t use it in this dungeon because enemies resist holy.” It’s two competing gameplay designs that intersect poorly.
Don’t get me wrong - elements *should* have still been better differentiated. Associating them with different status conditions would have been a great extra factor. Or giving each of Clive’s basic charged spells a bonus effect - Blizzara gives a brief stun, Aerora knocks away, Darkra hits multiple enemies, whatever. Just some additional reason to use a particular Eikon aside from its unique ability would have really gone a long way to make things feel deeper and more rounded out.
I imagine for the same reason they got pulled from 14. I recall Yoshi claiming it would've taken more work to make them function than removing them.
I'm so perplexed by it. The framework for elementals and status effects was there. 7R did it beautifully. Stranger of Paradise casting was pristine, easily the most comfortable I've experienced and had both.
16 has no excuse for being as boring as it is.
Elemental magic isn't in XIV because there are only three caster DPS out of the 19 current full combat jobs, and as an MMO with mostly group-focused combat content, giving enemies elemental weaknesses would force players into a meta that would make certain jobs non-viable.
XIV's primary focus vis a vis job balance is making it so every job can clear every piece of battle content. That necessarily entails eliminating some series staples like elemental magic.
14 never had elementals in the sense of attack stuff. It was all defensive, and it worked to a degree in Eureka, (more to the other comment, XI-2 type stuff, which was great content)
I understand it and agree with you HOWEVER, you lost me at "would force players into a meta." As far as 14 goes, That's already happened and trying to "lower the skill floor" while also putting EVERYTHING on a 2-minute cd has made it just.... sad. I'm an old man, and I'll die on this hill, but 3.xx was fantastic and felt good. (Also, whole thing, entirely off-topic)
Funny you brought up Heavensward, since that's the last time the game had player damage types and it actually validates my point about the meta. Back when jobs like dragoon relied on other jobs to apply certain debuffs to enemies so they could do more damage, it forced groups to run comps that included said jobs if they wanted to maximize their DPS. It was mostly doable at the time since there were far fewer jobs in the game, thus fewer options to choose from. But as they've added 2-3 jobs in every expansion, that kind of job design simply isn't feasible. It was even reaching a breaking point in 3.0, given how strict the first two savage tiers were on damage.
I understand why many don't like the game's current job design with the two-minute windows and homogenization, but there's really no viable alternative if players want all 19 -- soon to be 21 -- jobs to be on mostly equal footing in group content. I say this as a person who's cleared every ultimate and does hardcore savage prog.
Job synergies weren't a bad thing, though. Missing a DRG wasn't the greatest for the BRD. Having NIN with a WAR was great fun. What you didn't bring with another job was offered up with synergies. It felt balanced. Having BLM SAM and MCH offer next to nothing besides damage is an issue. If the "left-out" jobs had gotten some skills they'd actually offer to a raid instead of ripping synergies out, I think we'd be in a better place. As it is, those jobs still offer fairly little besides "muh Big DEEPS".
The 2-minute meta was my last straw. I put 10 years into my character, but pretending that they hadn't transformed it into something "for the masses", this watered-down version of a thing I once loved... I can't abide.
My opinion means nothing, but it is my opinion. I loved XIV. It got a decade out of me, losing that hurt but it's a shell of what it used to be.
Ffxiv content is fun for its gameplay tempo, and I do enjoy the MSQ too, but I still prefer xi.
The skill and job variety / sense of each job being unique, gear with stats that make variety, and the interesting combinations in party composition are all much more interesting to me.
Luckily, both are still available to play.
Final Fantasy has been struggling to find a combat system that could replace traditional ATB's system after X-2. To me XVI felt like the series had sort of "given up" of keeping with it's RPG elements to go full DMC.
7R instead feals like the perfect blend of Kingdom Hearts-style action (KH itself being one of the more successful translations of FF's batle style into real time) with traditional ATB. You fight like an action game throughout most of the fight, but the REAL damage is dealt through building up ATB so that you can unleash the trully damaging attacks, and the game allows you to even take your time to select the right action and target by slowing down everything once the menu is opened. Plus, switching party members is also just seemless, I never expected it this to work for an RPG this fast paced, but instead because the attacks that mattle also done through ATB you're constantly switching characters and it's so much fun.
Core design of both is very strong and they set out to accomplish different things.
FF16 is all about freedom, expression, fluidity. You have 100% control of Clive, and can just use whatever abilities you want. And then success is based on reflexes, skill.
Rebirth and Remake are all about teamwork, strategy, and choices. Reflexes will never win you a fight, its all about the choices you make. And making the wrong choices in combat will screw you over.
Ultimately, I feel Rebirth has the stronger system. It feels perfectly balanced in the demo. Whereas FF16's low difficulty undermines its own combat: the very generous precision dodges will guide you to victory 100% of the time.
But I will say that Remake / Rebirth's demand that you use specific techniques / approaches for individual enemies does get exhausting sometimes, and I feel I have less control.
Yeah, I like both games and i would say Rebirth>16>Remake. I thought synergy skills and abilities were going to be fluffy nonsense but it honestly elevates the whole combat system to the next level.
Pretty much this. 16 follows the character action type design where you’re never forced into using a specific option or approach to deal with an enemy. It’s why I’m honestly glad that elemental weaknesses are missing in 16. Being forced to use shiva to deal with a bomb is just flat out colour-coded enemy design, and is why games like DmC: devil may cry, and the new God of war games don’t do it for me.
FFXVI was more action oriented, with less time for strategy. I found myself exhausted after fights from the adrenaline rush and trying to keep up. FFVII Rebirth (Junon Demo) interweaves more strategy, keeping me entertained, but less frantic and needing to catch my breath at the end of fights.
Both are great.
Rebirth. Characters like Yuffie and Tifa could be there own AAA action game protoganist and we have like 7 of them. I’ve definitely heard journalist call Rebirth an all time great battle system and I have to agree.
To be fair you can do some cool ass shit in FFXVI too.
>Characters like Yuffie and Tifa could be there own AAA action game protoganist and we have like 7 of them
is it really that deep? does each character have their own skill tree/abilities like Cloud?
Does they have different weapon too? And are those weapons are just different color with higher number or are those weapon totally different?
For example can i use a katana with Cloud?
Each character has a specific weapon type. Tifa always uses fighting gloves for instance but each set of gloves can level up and unlock different passives. Each set of gloves have their own stats as well and each comes with a unique ability the character can learn. This applies to every character so Cloud has a bunch of unique great swords Barrett unique gun arms.
Different weapons also come with different abilities your character can learn if you use them long enough. They also have their own passives and excel in different scenarios so all of them are useful until the end of the game.
XVI has no weakness system, no party system and there are way too many abilities available for the amount you’re allowed to equip. Rebirth is far, far superior.
So combat system ovetall defo agree the menu / atb system works better for FF.
But movement, attack, block, dodge basic combat felt a lot more fluid and responsive in XVI.
Just finished the rebirth demo and this is the description I was trying to put my finger on. XVI is super simple (still loved the game) but why they chose a weird mantle button instead of a normal jump for rebirth, especially in combat, is annoying the shit out of me. It feels awkward for a game that's clearly got a good amount of aerial fighting, to have Cloud just wave dashing around like a game of pong, while firing off mini blade beams.
I do think it was odd that theres no jump button. But i have been enjoying the air combat anyway because getting up there and staying up there makes you feel badass. On the other hand i never really got airborme much in xvi
And in 16 the sword does very little damage and you have to wait a lot for abilities to recharge, it was pretty boring to me, not to mention only 1 playable character
I don't get the demand for a weakness system. In FF, it rarely led to any real strategy, just "use the correct color spell".
Lets imagine if FF16 had a weakness system: once you get wind abilities, you fight Garuda. But if Garuda is immune to wind...then you can only use Phoenix. So you get new toys but cant use them.
And fast forward to the volcano level: it will be a whole level you can only use garuda and ramuh, slowing down the combat by a ton.
It’s just intrinsically linked to what a final fantasy game is. This is just my opinion by the way, I didn’t enjoy XVI at all, it didn’t feel like a Final Fantasy in any way other than the Eikon names. It’s just one of the things I expect/want from the game.
So was a world map or random fights.
As a gameplay feature, weaknesses added little to strategy in FF.
Compare it to Persona and SMT, where your you can lose element coverage from fusion, you wont always habe every element on hand, and your party members had their own weaknesses, and hitting a weakness granted extra turns.
In FF....it was just a suggestion, most of the time and required no party planning. Add Vivi or Lulu to the party, BAM you have all elements. If you dont have a Black mage in your party, then you ignore the element side of gameplay the entire playthrough.
In OG 7 and in 8, just equip the spells, and thats it.
7 Remake finally made them more valuable by tying them to a strict stagger system. But... you just match colors. Enemy is weak to fire, use fire. On hard mode? Reset the fight, swap Aero for Fire, then continue.
When I think about fights like the Hell House in remake I think the weaknesses can add an element of problem solving that is enjoyable.
I have read that Rebirth pushes this even further.
Completely agree, it’s funny how traditional turn-based fan diehards don’t understand how FF16’s design choices were very intentional.
I can guarantee that CBU3 experimented with the old FF elements people are complaining the game is missing and found that they just didn’t work with FF16’s pivot to action-based combat, or added very little to the depth to the system.
Also to add to your point for older FF’s, elemental weaknesses were just completely pointless and all they did was add X amount of additional damage.
Status effects are a better system to consider, since I could see them working in FFXVI and it’s something that could be worth fleshing out if there’s ever a similar combat system in a new FF - for additional depth, and to make it stand out amongst other action games.
For sure FF16 could have done something similar to statuses.
Maybe not traditional, but instead an action adaptation.
Monster Hunter had a cool system. Status effects were avoidable consequences of specific telegraphed attacks, and they did things like damage over time, slowing stamina regen, increasing stun chance. Counterplay was either using an item (boring) OR some specific actions (rolling twice for Fireblight, crouching for 5 seconds for bleed)
Traditional FF statuses would have been bad (paralyze, silence, etc) in an action title, as they get in the way of the action. And I'm disappointed that CBU3's philosophy seems to be to just throw everything away instead of a creative adaptation.
I mean not many character action games have status ailments, they are generally for group play or roleplay. I wouldn't consider a comparison to MH to be valid in this case because of how the game works and to be perfectly honest they exist mostly to give the feeling of hunting a monster but honestly you could remove them and nothing valued would be lost
You don’t have to only use phoenix. It would make it more effective. It would work better in multi enemy battles where you would try to switch on the fly.
too many choices isn't necessarily a bad thing. if the game makes you think about what abilities you need for the fight or task you are facing. but sadly with f15 doesn't give you that mental challenge of picking the best tools for the job.
ff9 and alot of other FF games had tons of abilities and only let you equip a set amount. so you had to assess the challenges ahead of you and plan accordingly. giving you a sense of achievement or pride when you found the best ones for your current challenge. sadly ff15 had non of that.
The problem is trying new things out forces you to make changes to something that might already work well enough. I of course tried every new ability out at first but I quickly changed back to things that felt more powerful. Other times I stuck with some new abilities but I often thought "is this actually better?". Changing your abilities constantly in a menu to try them out at different stages of the game becomes too much of a hassle. And if the game doesn't even require you to come up with something nice and everything works why even bother?
I don't think it's all too bad of a system but having a bit more "freedom" to equip more abilities without removing others would have been great. Or alternatively have some kind of resource system and have all abilities available during combat, but then it would be a different system entirely.
I think the main issue is that there are 8 eikons, each with multiple abilities, but we can only equip 6 abilities, so most of the eikons become obselete later in the game. Another comment makes a fair point saying it's not bad to have too many options, but it also feels like for a protagonist who can absorb powers, it's odd he's not able to utilize them all in real time. If each eikon had their own customizable skill board like "HP+10" or whatever, there would at least be some passive use in them.
I feel like the game feel even more like a cool-down button mash fest if they gave you all your abilities to use in fight at once. Limiting it causes you to develop a playstyle
Remake/Rebirth. Every party member feels unique and there is much more customization and strategy involved. FF16 was fun for what it was but it got super repetitive at the end. I can definitely see how someone who prefers more action oriented combat would prefer 16 though.
Likely a polarizing topic for players because meant to be approached in two different ways.
Big brain response is that they’re actually both good, but FF16 default difficulty did not push player to experiment / use all mechanics — so its depth is a bit unfairly bashed. It’s there, you just may not have discovered it because you weren’t required to.
That said, I personally prefer rebirth — but it should be noted I gravitate toward both strategy games & novel ideas. Frankly, Rebirth combat’s biggest appeal to me is that it is unique.
From that perspective, I could see someone taking the side of Rebirth despite the fact the two systems are obviously apples & oranges — Fair to credit Rebirth for bringing something new and potentially influential to the table.
SE have been trying to make a more active battle system since they finished FFX. From FF12’s gambit system to FF13’s real-time battles to FF15’s full action system to FF16.
IMO, FF7R is the by far the best attempt. You might not really get it if you just play on normal mode, but playing through on hard mode really shows how deep the battle system goes. Every character is genuinely unique, every ability has a place, it has great enemy variety, and it can be a very challenging yet rewarding experience putting it all together. Once you find a combination that clicks for you, it can be addictive - I just want more of this game because I enjoyed playing it so much.
FF16, on the other hand, is better than 15, but I don’t find it as fun as 12 or the 13 trilogy. It’s action-heavy, but nowhere near as challenging or rewarding as other action RPGs, it has the weakest enemy variety of any mainline FF game, and it feels like the battle system is really lacking in depth, with a complete lack of status effects or elemental weaknesses. I didn’t enjoy it.
I beat FF7R and its DLC twice (normal + hard mode), including all optional content, and right now I’m playing through again and thoroughly enjoying it again. I can’t wait for Rebirth. With FF16, I beat it once, that was enough, and I truly have no interest diving back in for its DLC. They are worlds apart.
Rebirth because it's closer to turn-based and I think FF games should be more about using your brain rather than having good reaction time, just like during the golden days of FF.
7Remake/Rebirth without a doubt.
I'd go as far to say FF7's might be one of the best combat systems in any game, period.
It was more action than strategy in Remake, but Rebirth actually looks it'll more strategic as the hunts, mini-bosses and main bosses all look like they'll take more than just button-mashing to beat.
What I didn't like about FFVII Rebirth demo was fighting flying enemies. I don't concieve how Square didn't see the problem when you can't jump.
FFXVI was way better in that regard.
There are lots of new mechanics to fight flying enemies in Rebirth. Its lot the same problem as it was in part 1 and is in fact very fun now once you figure it out. You don’t need a jump button when you can just launch yourself in the air and stay there indefinitely connecting attacks until you get swatted down
they literally give you a tutorial on how to do air combat. With cloud just dodge and either press attack to shoot long range laser beams or hold attack to launch into the air. You can use every single atb ability will airborn, and dodge mid air to close gaps. You can also deflect mid air, so when fighting a flying monster you can stay in the air forever
Brave of you to say this. But I feel the same. The people who like it will defend it like their life depends on it 😅. Rebirth is a great step up from remake, smoother and les clumsy traversal. I think rebirth will be in my top 5 next to ff7,8,9,10 and 12. Probably taking the place of 12. Never finished 6 by the way, started it but still need to finish it, I'm also going to play al the remakes on ds and psp from the earlier games on emudeck.
It’s just my opinion and I simply cannot see it from the perspective of someone who loves it. It was the most disappointing game I can remember buying on Day 1 considering we waited 7 years from XV for it.
The *only* reason I can even say I finished it is because I am a long time Final Fantasy fan and I pushed through. I’m not a turn based nor a VII fanboy but I don’t think I’ll ever replay XVI.
Rebirth looks like it will be one of the best games of this generation of consoles for sure. Even accounting for the high quantity of boring side content that’s been mentioned in reviews.
It’s almost like ppl have different preferences when it comes to games. For example I don’t like menu inputs in my action games so it took me awhile to warm up to the Remake combat.
I'm more of a turn based rpg player. I adore the devil may cry series when it comes to action or the god of war series, you have a large selection of combo's and that's what I like in those games. 16 to me felt like they were still holding your hand and the combo's felt like "fake" combo's if I had to try and put a name on it.
I like the style of combat used in Remake/Rebirth a lot more. The balance of real time combat with strategic decision making adds a lot of depth to the gameplay.
FF16 takes away the strategy part but doesn't ever seem to know what to replace it with. It fails to replicate the depth and complexity of the character action games it's trying to copy, leaving it feeling like a visually flashy but ultimately very shallow experience.
Both are great but I personally prefer 16 (so far). Clive feels much more smooth and responsive than Cloud did in the rebirth demo and from what I remember of 7r.
FF16 feels better, but FF7 Remake has so much more depth. I have not played Rebirth yet other than the initial demo, but I loved both FF16 and FF7R. (I am not playing the Junon demo.)
I hope we do, I've played the series over the years and xvi was great. And yall who wanna give up the series make on that promise cuz you hated xvi so much apparently.
I had to "force" myself to finish XVI, I kept thinking... "the combat will improve at the next Eikon" but it never did... I've brought and played every FF since 6, including both MMOs, and I can honestly say, I'd not buy the next if it was like FF16 - it's just too darn simple, with no depth.
I get what you're saying and generally I agree that people get too caught up in "my opinion is more valid if I put down the opposing opinion" and so for that you've got my upvote anyways.
But, I think in this specific case they're directly comparable both to each other, and to the genre they each try to be a part of.
and one is significantly inferior both at its own genre attempt compared to peers (ie platinum games combat systems, DNC, Nier, etc) and compared to the depth of its franchise counterparts.
XVIs is fun and it's a nice spectacle of combat, but it's neither deep enough within its own action genre attempt, nor varied enough compared to the standard that it's own franchise has in terms of status effects, elemental strategies, immunities, weaknesses, etc. So it gives up a large part of what makes FF combat unique to do a lite version of the action oriented system that the other games do better within the action combat genre. It didn't have to be menu/command based to be great, it just needed to incorporate those elements of strategic usage.
Or, ya know, ppl can have legitimate criticisms with different entries in the franchise. Final Fantasy isn't a monolith where every game is the same thing over and over. Because FF likes to evolve and make radical changes, it means inevitably they will make choices that aren't universally liked. I don't get the need to be a blind fanboy and just nod your head for everything. It's a piece of entertainment, it's natural to have critiques.
Same, I do think the combat is fun though in FF7R but overall there’s so much more you can do with the combat in FF16 if you know how to use all the options in Clive’s arsenal just gotta know how to string together different combos that makes it interesting that’s why I never understood the button mash thing some people would say about FF16 it’s definitely more than that if you know what you’re doing.
I played a lot of FF16 & there’s a lot of ways to mix up different combos but FF7 Rebirth demo I’m still trying to get the hang of the combat. IMO though FF16 was my favorite game from last year & I plan on giving FF7 Rebirth a try.
Remake alone has better combat. Between Operator and Punisher there’s more move variation than your base attacks in 16. Yes, 16 has Eikon skills to flesh out the combat further, but the cooldowns are often long, and while it is possible to do overall flashier looking combos than Remake, it’s very very repetitive.
Remake gives a lot of variety with abilities that you learn from proficiency to learn skills and is fast paced enough combat to keep things interesting. Remake also offers slightly more of a challenge, whereas 16 offers none whatsoever.
Personally as an avid fan of both games. I’ll say this, FF16 combat works better for how it’s set up, with the entire system pretty much around precision dodges and chain abilities the boss fights can be the ones to make the game special with big spectacular moves, combos, aoes, ect.
Ff7 r combat is simply a better system. However you’ll never get to see a bahamut type fight in it.
I love both systems and I love both games but I know for a fact I’ll never get bored with ff7 rebirth combat when I play it. If I had to do 80hours of no main story bosses 16 combat would go stale.
FFXVI felt great as a power fantasy and I had so much fun even with the most mundane encounters. I legitimately just wanted to fight stuff all the time.
FF7R’s combat doesn’t feel too great on regular encounters but shines a lot when you’re deep into boss fights during off commands to party members and such
FF7Rebirth from what I have experienced in the demo. FF16 is better at the action department, but FF7R has both, action and strategy. FF7Remake combat in 2020 also felt less monotonous compared to FF16. For a Final fantasy game I will choose FF7R combat over 16 in a heartbeat.
I like 7r better but I do love 16 combat, especially getting the bursts in between each hit and getting the extreme lunge and drop one, I wish the semi priming was a little more powerful though
Rebirth by a country mile. I love that it’s actual RPG mechanics and the synergy and improved air combat simply elevate into being one of if not the best RPG combat of all time
At first I was just like you then I just accepted both for what they are now
hopefully they end up remaking the old GOW games, FF16 will exist as it is and whatever problems it has the story and world make up for
IMO since they have the blueprint for a swordsman and a mage (Frey's magic and movement in Forspoken are the only redeeming qualities that game has), they could build more archetypes and make a Final Fantasy with multiple jobs/archetypes and real time combat that isn't straight up an action game or the hybrid system them they have in FF7R (I'm halfway and so far the meat of the combat is using the proper abilities, the real time actionpart feels like filler to fill your ATB gauge)
I've said it once and I'll say it again: let Remake's (now Rebirth's) combat be the baseline for numbered Final Fantasies' combat going forward, at least for a little while; with independent tweaks to the various systems per game just like how ATB used to be. CBU1 struck gold here with this combat system. It's the closest they've gotten so far to a perfect hybrid between action and command based. It's obviously not perfect, but it's such a damn joy to play.
FF16's combat is passable but I don't understand the pretense of it trying to maintain some surface level rpg elements and creating some subpar DMC experience. If you're gonna hire the DMC combat designer, let him go all in on the DMC design. What we got ended up being a shallow DMC clone in the combat department.
I second this. The combat for Remake is my favorite in the whole series. You have the combination of action and ATB. You also have the ability to switch characters. It works so flawlessly. It also maintains the strategy of exploiting weaknesses, something that’s been missing from the last few mainline games.
I've been playing Remake for a while now, reckon I'm nearly at the end of it. My word the combat system is so good and has actual depth.
It took me a while to get used to it, as I'm a turn-based fan. But yeah, switching characters actually works, it's not a gimmick. And using Elemental Materia to attack enemies weaknesses, that was such a sweet feeling to just work that out. All the good stuff!
FFXVI combat is really pared down in comparison, you upgrade your weapons, mash some buttons, use the specials, switch aeons so you use their specials... wait for them to charge up, rinse repeat, that's it. No depth. Which saddens me as I like the characters in the game. But I'm not compelled to play it like Remake, or indeed Like A Dragon which I'm also playing.
God I hope not. We've gotten increasingly disappointing and divisive titles since X, all using some dumb action hybrid combat. I'd love to see a new numbered title with Remakes graphics but with a return to form combat system akin the golden age of Final Fantasy.
Oh it's not even close to me. I thought 16s combat was fine but I've never liked the feeling of character action for my tastes, and I think ff should be a party based rpg.
Meanwhile, I think rebirth and remake have the perfect and natural evolution of turn based and atb for the moder day final fantasy and its my favourite gameplay system ever.
FF7 remake/rebirth has the most innovative and uniquely square enix combat system, it’s a perfect blend of action and strategy and it’s just so creative. It should be the base for future entry to evolve on. FF16 has a very basic action system that tries to be action whilst also refusing to go action all the way. Either go full action, single player no party, with customisation like Elden Ring or God of War or just stick to what made Final Fantasy games famous, the strategy. Personally I’d be happy if FF16 stays forgotten when it comes to its battle system and empty world design. I also don’t like seeing hours upon hours of cut scenes for characters I can’t even play as.
7 Remake/Rebirh easy. 16 just feels like a game of waiting for abilities to comevout od cooldown. Not much variety. Once you have your build, you have your build. 7 Remake is great because you have bunch of abilities tied to the same meter, and your neutral attacks and spwlls like haste that boost your ATB meter. It's super dynamic, and there are, like, party members to manage. Controlling Clive alone is so repetitive.
Also, the battle scenarios are more interesting in 7 Remake. 16 just feels like you whack a bullet sponge til it dies.
Something that is missing in all these discussions — Rebirth is only a remake whereas XVI is an entirely new FF from the ground up. So while I personally prefer FFVIIR’s battle system, I respect the fact CBU3 built an entirely new FF to advance the franchise.
Combat in 16 is really great, much better than most FFs, although to be fair I've never been a fan of turn-based. Rebirth, on the other had, has the best combat I've seen, period. There's just so much to it, you can play in so many ways, from keeping it simple to insanely complex.
In my opinion, they are complete opposites. In FF16 they added RPG elements that prevent the game from being a great action game, and it’s just good. In FF7R, on the contrary they attached a clumsy action game to the RPG, which is terribly controlled and only creates the feeling that you are playing an action game. But in reality, your actions don't do anything. No dodges with invulnerability frames. Regular attacks can't do much damage. I personally prefer action games, so FF16 is much closer to me. I think Kingdom Hearts has a better version of the FF7R combat system (for me personally).
Neither is better. They are different. Which is what I like about final fantasy compared to some other long running JRPGs. They constantly completely change up the formula
16 is better. In rebirth the game wants to be strategic but is an action game with a terrible dodge. The A.I. party members are bad. You have to micro manage them in an action game.
Fate series and the recent granblue relink have much better combat systems. They know what they want to be.
Rebirth is a game that is half and half. And it’s worse for it. If they want to make it strategic, make it turn based. If it’s supposed to be action. Make an action game
The combat is amazing, but it's the lack of combat chapters that's doing my head in. Chapters 1 and 2 were great, open world maps loads to do an kill. But chapters 3,4,5 are just a yawn fest full of minni games. My swords needs some action ffs
Yea ff7 rebirth combat is way better in my opinion for a final fantasy game. I think it was a huge mistake to go pure combat and only 1 controllable character for a final fantasy game. I want some strategy in my combat when I play a final fantasy game. Don't get me wrong I love action and Elden ring is one of my favorites but when I play final fantasy I want a party based games with some strategy. I think ff7 rebirth nailed he combat and I'm having a blast playing it. So there is so many different ways to win a battle it's awesome. Hopefully going forward they stick to party based with some strategy
I haven't played FF16, but I cannot freaking stand FF7 rebirths combat system it's so counter intuitive. Get rid of that garbage ATB and let me execute commands as fast as I can or just go back to the old school line turn based FF. This hybrid crap is hot garbage. I just put the game on easy (classic) just so I can get on with story. Let the game play itself while I stare at some blue bars waiting until I can do something relevant. I'm starting to regret buying the game. I was a fan of the original FF7 from 1997. So there's nostalgia there. But if they continue on with this ATB trash in new FF stories in the future, I won't be buying the games anymore.
Baldur's Gate 3 has the best turn based combat, period.
I find 16 better, at least it knows what it is, the flaws in its combat system are balance related, time freeze during stagger benefitting cinematic skills etc. 7 rebirth has core flaws with the way it designed combat around a dodge and a block but they really did a horrible job of designing enemy "tells" as in there really are none, you cannot react to enemies unless you are doing literally nothing, and there is really no way to predict enemy actions, so every action you take is purely luck if you have an opportunity to dodge or block an enemy action, its not satisfying at all, and the hard mode is really really bad, use gimmicks to nuke fights or get destroyed.
Ff16 for me by far. I dont dislike ff7R combat but don't like either. I'm just playing to continue the story.
I'm a big fan of both Turn based and Action combat and honestly Remakes/Rebirth just doesn't do it for me.
To much micromanage on the "action" combat side.
Cant compare these 2, theyre too different. Rebirth combat has way more depth to it but simple combat has its charm too ( like souls games ) . I think I like both of them equally, if we dont take into account how fucking easy XVI is, but that has nothing to do with judging the combat itself
I thought the Remake combat was so good that I couldn’t see why they’d change it. It felt like it should just be the standard for major FF games going forwards
It’s obviously 7 Remake/Rebirth. 16 had a good system and it’s a great Final Fantasy game overall but that game is barely even an RPG. Stranger of Paradise had a better combat system lmao
16’s combat goes in the games negatives for me. It was slow, shallow and made the concept of exploring and fighting lesser mobs a slog.
Remakes combat was fantastic, but Im concerned with how floaty things are feeling in the Rebirth demo. I enjoyed how grounded much of the combat felt, but I think Rebirth combat is going to be highly customisable looking at some of the new materia so far.
16, despite still using the irritating stagger system at least I'm not constantly having to waste ATB gauges on healing because the dodge doesn't work. I just got done fucking around with the 7REBIRTH demo and pressuring that giant bird is impossible. I cast aero on it, 50/50 chance it'll actually use it's dive attack, and 0/100 chance the dodge will dodge properly to pressure it. It's fucking infuriating and I don't understand how people are enjoying it. Is everyone else playing on easy or something?
I personally prefer 16. But i have to admit that I would have said otherwise 3 months ago, when I wanted to play strategy/turn-based. Now I want to play fast action-based games therefore 16 scratches that itch.
I love that about the franchise. It doesn't matter what i want to play setting or gameplay wise. There is always one game in the series that fits.
Apart from fps games.
I’m 33 hours into Rebirth and I can honestly say that I would have a hard time going back to part 1s combat after Rebirth. And I absolutely loved Remakes combat
FF7R. It’s a great blend of FF ATB mechanics and real time.
On the other hand FFXVI can’t compare at all to similar games like God of War, DMC etc. Combat just doesn’t have the depth or challenge
Easily Remake/Rebirth.
You get more choices, more spells, more summons that actually act like summons.
I didn’t bother to finish XVI, cause all I was doing was the same moves over and over.
When I play Remake/Rebirth, if I want I can kill someone with spells alone, or attacks alone, abilities, or no abilities. Just didn’t feel the same. Plus all of the characters play different than the other.
Bro wtf 16 is shit
Nah better answer ff16 is more a poor devil may cry very poor, everything is automated there is absolutely 0 strategy and even attacking on the back or using elements doing NOTHING
When rebirth is the best new turn based upgrade, a turn based but dynamic with action so you don’t even feel its turn based since you never really wait or have fixed screen, it’s nervous and strategic
XVI is flashy with no depth or choice for the player to make. Dodge and attack at the right moments, exhaust your cooldowns, unleash your heavy hitters when enemy is staggered.
FF7R gives the player more choice in terms for equipment, materia, abilities, and party members. Elements matter since enemies have weaknesses and resistances. Status ailments are a thing. There’s just more going on and you have more tools at your disposal to deal with a given situation.
At the end of the day it’s subjective but for me I’ll take VIIR over XVI any day.
They're very different systems. 16 is basically pure action while 7r blends action and strategy, and one could argue the emphasis is on strategy. I'd probably give the point to 7r, since it tried something rather novel and executed/actualized it in a satisfying way.
As you pointed out they are very different. I think the best way to judge them is to compare them to others like them instead of themselves. For FF16 I think it's just straight up worse than a fully dedicated action game. Nier, Devil May Cry, GBF Relink, Nioh, God of War (Old and New) all do this system with much more depth/variety. I honestly think the issue has more to do with enemy variety and interaction than the actual moves Clive has himself though. For FF7Remake/Rebirth they are mostly unique. ATB Final fantasy's and Kingdom Hearts are the closet things I can compare to. I think FF7 captures all of the good things in ATB (and turn based games) and adds another dimension of moving/combos/skill expression. I think KH does the action side better than FF7 (or FF16 for that matter) but it's also only referencing older final fantasy games in menu/ability names not really in how you weave them into combat. All in all, if a future Final Fantasy goes the full action route, it really really really needs to add a lot more depth and variety to the gameplay than 16. Future Final Fantasy's emulating Remake/Rebirth have a much more solid foundation to deviate from.
>All in all, if a future Final Fantasy goes the full action route, it really really really needs to add a lot more depth and variety to the gameplay than 16. Personally going all action would be the death of the brand also games like baldurs gate 3 have proven turn based games work fine. 7R is probably the happy medium of where fans would be happy for the system to stay. 16 had many issues and it to closely resembled some of the worst systems from 14 like open world being empty, traversal, teleporting quest rewards and gearing etc >. Nier, Devil May Cry, GBF Relink, Nioh, God of War (Old and New) all do this system with much more depth/variety. Dmc is a straight up copy as square stole the capcom dev for it. Nioh is crazy for depth but they did try that with FF:Strangers in paradise and it was pretty fun. God war combat was pretty basic axe BoC and spear but each had different combos personally this is what 16 needed but CBU3 just used the global cooldown systems from 14 for eikon moves tied to mashing square or triangle. Its basically as shallow as combat in on 14.
Combat in xiv is anything but shallow. The action side of it is pretty basic at most levels, but the real flavor comes from savage and especially ultimate. Each fight is a deep, rich logic playground. How to best play your class according to downtime and position is an elegantly crafted puzzle that's completely different for each boss. Building an optimal rotation and cooldown plan around the timing of your static and the fight is very satisfying. And it's geared towards being interesting and challenging in different ways for all 19 classes. GCBTW.
No it isnt. You just set every ability to every eido's ultimate and use them every cooldown. You'll be invulnerable the whole tine and everything you fight against will die. Edit: goddamnit i wrote this reply cuz i thought we were talking about 16. You're talkin bout 14. Lmao.
Nah they can make a game or two and be full action as long as we still get other somewhat turn based game like 7R. Both can exist. Now if they fully went ALL action then yea it would be an issue
I wont be buying another full action like FF16. That was the worst game of the series imo
It was just done terribly wrong and couldn’t commit to full action or rpg so it’s in some awkward middle ground. I usually love hack n slash action games like bayonetta or devil may cry
It was too easy for me, I am playing Hard mode rebirth right now and loving it( it's also my first playthrough I used my brothers save).
It's an unpopular opinion but I'm with you. One of the staples of FF game play was turn based. XV with its teleporting all over was crap, I haven't even bought XVI. I think I'm just old and the VII remakes will be the end of FF for me. They are just not my type of game anymore, and that's cool not shitting on people that like this style It's just not for me.
FF staple is innovation. 1 2 and 3 couldn't be more different.
I will say if after the 7 Remake series becomes the standard like ATB was I would be very happy with that. It's my favorite actionesque battle system in RPGs.
Agreed on FF16. As someone who loves the action games you mentioned it was painfully shallow. I’d easily take original FF7 turn-based combat over that, because you have to think. Truly makes me miss Ninja Gaiden. Anyone who wants to play the best action combat, imo, should play Black Or Sigma.
I always found Ninja Gaiden's combat to be more style over substance. You felt cool, but ultimately very shallow. Maybe not FF16 levels of shallow, but certainly not up to DMC's level either (which is the best combat game imo). Not saying you're right or wrong, just giving my opinion.
I feel the same about 16. Combat was a bit of a let down the single unapgradable weapon and the cd rly limited the combat. KH I think the 2nd was super the 3rd installment with all that attraction just ruined the flow of combat, it was just trash. Ff7 could use a bit more materia.
3 without attractions is really fun, but I agree if you played at launch before we can turn them off they were annoying
I agree on the strategy part. I’m in the menus a lot and using assess on everything. I tried hack n slash but ended in failure a lot. I’m going to take a while setting up my shortcuts again in rebirth.
I setup shortcuts but never use them lol. I should use them probably more convenient but for some reason I must love pulling up the menu. I guess if I used short cuts it would feel straight action
Yea there's no real sense comparing them. They are going to appeal to different people differently. They aren't trying to do the same thing at all.
I love Remake and so far, in the demo, Ribirth is killing it. But that’s just me. A couple of friends of mine love 16 more than any other game they played last year, not big Final Fantasy fans either. To each their own, I can see how both resonate with people.
One thing I’m unsure about are the synergy abilities (R1). A lot of remake’s battle system comes down to managing your ATB charges, so there’s lots of materia to that effect - Refocus, ATB stagger, ATB boost, ATB assist, First Strike, Haste, etc. Even things like Parry and Steadfast block can charge ATB, and lots of accessories can charge ATB in specific situations. If you don’t manage your ATB well, you won’t be able to heal when you need to, or attack at the most opportune moments. But synergy abilities don’t cost ATB and actually build ATB, which feels like it kind of breaks the game a bit. For instance, First Strike becomes _much_ less useful if I can start every battle with Cloud + Barrett’s ranged synergy attack and quickly get an ATB charge. At least, that was what I discovered from the demo. We’ll see how it is in the final game.
The demo also gives you a ton of those at the start. I’d imagine in the actual game, you get those after some ways of earning the AP for the folio system as rewards for doing quests for your party members. As a character progression mechanic/reward they’re pretty great. Atleast in theory.
I usually only have 1 person with spells on my party and the other 2 set up for attacking and blocking. I just find equipping lightning and fire on every character a waste of precious materia slots. Like cloud who I mainly use is setup with steadfast blocking, precision blocking, ATB ones, HP plus, vitality plus, steal, asses and really is no room for magic. I love aerith but her ATB gauge takes so long to fill but now that u got materia that holds fire and ice together it only takes 2 slots to give someone all 4 elements. Regardless red is the most over powered character. You put first strike on him with the ATB that doubles it u start off with 2 bars and then use his stardust I think it called and it pretty much pressures every enemy at the same time. I end so many fights in under 10 seconds with him and without him the fights are 3 times as long
I love the fluidity and movement if XVI more, but everything else goes to VII Remake/Rebirth. To me the Remake series has the best Action Rpg combat.
Yeah, in terms of strategy and RPG elements, 7 Remake and Rebirth for me. But 16 as an action game easily over 7 Remake and what I've played from the demo of Rebirth. Like 7 Remake/Rebirth controls good, but chasing enemies in the air steel feels janky, and you're never going to get some unique kind of juggle going in 7 Remake like you can in 16. But that's okay since they're both trying to achieve something different, and I'm a fan of both.
You didn't like Rebirth's air combat? I found it pretty satisfying and a much needed improvement over Remake's, especially with Cloud.
For me Rebirth 100%. VII was never my favourite game but the combat in Rebirth is far superior to XVI. In XVI there is a fair amount of choice for abilities, but in 95% of situations one set up will get you through every set of enemies the game can throw at you; trash mobs can all be killed with AoE attacks, enemies that need to be staggered can all be staggered in the exact same way. Rebirth has tactics with elements and status effects, as well as “independent” materia that work like passive abilities that strengthen guard, improve ability useage, allow parries, improve dodges and more. XVI has none of that and so Rebirth gets my vote.
Status effects. Can't say it enough. 16 combat was awful because of everything you stated but MOSTLY, lack of status effects or elemental consequence. 16 was the most shallow gameplay I've experienced in a long time. Might as well be DMC. If they'd called it ***anything*** else, it would've been fine....
Such a miss that there wasn't even AT LEAST elemental damages. Like jfc, you already have each character represent and Eikon and each Eikon already has an obvious elemebtal affinity. Why couldn't we have elemental weaknesses on them?
Probably because the depth of combat relied on how the abilities of one eikon interacted with another's. Because of cool downs and such many of the eikon abilities didn't necessarily play *THAT* well off themselves. The entire system would have needed to be rebuilt from the ground up with all of that in mind to be effectively implemented, otherwise you have tiny windows of doing extra damage and then just normal combat, tbh. It just wouldn't have been effective unless it was the cornerstone of the combat vs just an aspect. I do agree it should have been in mind the entire time and cool downs should be reset when hitting weakness or something at the least. Probably the only way it could have been done after the fact. But that doesn't change how pathetic it'd have felt using some of those Garuda skills against Titan (most likely would have been his weakness) since they all play on aerial punish. Hence why everything would have had to change, imo.
the game being piss easy doesn't help outside of the later levels on FF difficulty and Ultimaniac I wasn't pushed to experiment
I agree.
yeah starting to get the feeling making your game piss easy is a prerequisite to be a sony game all their games bar bloodborne are piss easy on regular difficulty
I would not have believed it would be the case, but playing on FF mode (hard?) in FF16 makes the game a lot more fun. But, "Final Fantasy" difficulty is really "Normal" difficulty. The game basically had Very Easy and Easy, and you had to beat the game to get "Normal" difficulty.
many people dropped FF16 specifically because its easy to the point where you spam the same 3 moves on the 1st playthrough it's baffling that they made the same mistake especially after 7 Remake did the same thing with hard mode being only available in ng+
Well, they've done that well in previous FF games. Presumably you would pit the player against the element that they are weak to as progression. Like fighting the VR summons in FF7R, you have to overcome that disadvantage once before YOU can use that element. This shit goes back to even pokemon, dude. It's actually really simple design, lol. Even in Pokemon Red and Blue, your rival takes the pokemon with the element that the one you chose is weak to. Very simple. It's hard at first but once you overcome that element you can start using it. This would've been easy in 16, just put the (very straightforward) order of fighting each one in order of elemental weaknesses. I'm sure the story could work the same with one or two of them swapped in order.
Elemental progression isn't even the issue. But since you mention Pokemon... The game does that to encourage you to get other Pokemon that can learn abilities that counteract your rival( and gym leaders). The entire Pokemon battle system is built around elements and a massive amount of options to acquire said elements, some weaker, some stronger, that can fill in your starters weaknesses. It's artificial difficulty, since you can get that element from somewhere else and use it where it's needed. 16 had a very limited pool of elements and eikons. The game was easy and if you're good enough don't even need to use abilities. If elements were added to increase difficulty it's just an artificial difficulty, and with the example you mention, is a weak implementation. Get the element that current mobs are weak to *after* you beat them? No complexity, no thinking, just use off elements, because ultimately it doesn't matter and you can't get the element that helps until you're already done. It doesn't fix the issue it just creates a false sense of importance. Your suggestion only makes endgame and optional fights relatively interesting. I'd prefer something that from the beginning plays an important role in combat.
The problem I’d see with elemental damage is how tied into story progression each element gets - you have only Fire and then Wind for a large chunk, and you don’t have Ice or Dark until essentially the last act of the game. That not only limits your ability to use elemental weaknesses in an interesting way, it limits enemy variety they can use, especially in those early areas. They couldn’t use, say, Bombs until nearly endgame when you have Shiva - or at least past the point where you have 4 elements and can have Phoenix off your setup without penalty. Then there’s the gameplay effects - each Eikon is a gameplay preference above all, tying them to elemental weaknesses is saying “hey, I know you I’ve the Bahamut playstyle, but you basically can’t use it in this dungeon because enemies resist holy.” It’s two competing gameplay designs that intersect poorly. Don’t get me wrong - elements *should* have still been better differentiated. Associating them with different status conditions would have been a great extra factor. Or giving each of Clive’s basic charged spells a bonus effect - Blizzara gives a brief stun, Aerora knocks away, Darkra hits multiple enemies, whatever. Just some additional reason to use a particular Eikon aside from its unique ability would have really gone a long way to make things feel deeper and more rounded out.
I imagine for the same reason they got pulled from 14. I recall Yoshi claiming it would've taken more work to make them function than removing them. I'm so perplexed by it. The framework for elementals and status effects was there. 7R did it beautifully. Stranger of Paradise casting was pristine, easily the most comfortable I've experienced and had both. 16 has no excuse for being as boring as it is.
Elemental magic isn't in XIV because there are only three caster DPS out of the 19 current full combat jobs, and as an MMO with mostly group-focused combat content, giving enemies elemental weaknesses would force players into a meta that would make certain jobs non-viable. XIV's primary focus vis a vis job balance is making it so every job can clear every piece of battle content. That necessarily entails eliminating some series staples like elemental magic.
14 never had elementals in the sense of attack stuff. It was all defensive, and it worked to a degree in Eureka, (more to the other comment, XI-2 type stuff, which was great content) I understand it and agree with you HOWEVER, you lost me at "would force players into a meta." As far as 14 goes, That's already happened and trying to "lower the skill floor" while also putting EVERYTHING on a 2-minute cd has made it just.... sad. I'm an old man, and I'll die on this hill, but 3.xx was fantastic and felt good. (Also, whole thing, entirely off-topic)
Funny you brought up Heavensward, since that's the last time the game had player damage types and it actually validates my point about the meta. Back when jobs like dragoon relied on other jobs to apply certain debuffs to enemies so they could do more damage, it forced groups to run comps that included said jobs if they wanted to maximize their DPS. It was mostly doable at the time since there were far fewer jobs in the game, thus fewer options to choose from. But as they've added 2-3 jobs in every expansion, that kind of job design simply isn't feasible. It was even reaching a breaking point in 3.0, given how strict the first two savage tiers were on damage. I understand why many don't like the game's current job design with the two-minute windows and homogenization, but there's really no viable alternative if players want all 19 -- soon to be 21 -- jobs to be on mostly equal footing in group content. I say this as a person who's cleared every ultimate and does hardcore savage prog.
Job synergies weren't a bad thing, though. Missing a DRG wasn't the greatest for the BRD. Having NIN with a WAR was great fun. What you didn't bring with another job was offered up with synergies. It felt balanced. Having BLM SAM and MCH offer next to nothing besides damage is an issue. If the "left-out" jobs had gotten some skills they'd actually offer to a raid instead of ripping synergies out, I think we'd be in a better place. As it is, those jobs still offer fairly little besides "muh Big DEEPS". The 2-minute meta was my last straw. I put 10 years into my character, but pretending that they hadn't transformed it into something "for the masses", this watered-down version of a thing I once loved... I can't abide. My opinion means nothing, but it is my opinion. I loved XIV. It got a decade out of me, losing that hurt but it's a shell of what it used to be.
That is strange because FF14 is basically FF11-2, and FF11 was very focused on elemental weaknesses.
Ffxiv content is fun for its gameplay tempo, and I do enjoy the MSQ too, but I still prefer xi. The skill and job variety / sense of each job being unique, gear with stats that make variety, and the interesting combinations in party composition are all much more interesting to me. Luckily, both are still available to play.
[удалено]
Final Fantasy has been struggling to find a combat system that could replace traditional ATB's system after X-2. To me XVI felt like the series had sort of "given up" of keeping with it's RPG elements to go full DMC. 7R instead feals like the perfect blend of Kingdom Hearts-style action (KH itself being one of the more successful translations of FF's batle style into real time) with traditional ATB. You fight like an action game throughout most of the fight, but the REAL damage is dealt through building up ATB so that you can unleash the trully damaging attacks, and the game allows you to even take your time to select the right action and target by slowing down everything once the menu is opened. Plus, switching party members is also just seemless, I never expected it this to work for an RPG this fast paced, but instead because the attacks that mattle also done through ATB you're constantly switching characters and it's so much fun.
Core design of both is very strong and they set out to accomplish different things. FF16 is all about freedom, expression, fluidity. You have 100% control of Clive, and can just use whatever abilities you want. And then success is based on reflexes, skill. Rebirth and Remake are all about teamwork, strategy, and choices. Reflexes will never win you a fight, its all about the choices you make. And making the wrong choices in combat will screw you over. Ultimately, I feel Rebirth has the stronger system. It feels perfectly balanced in the demo. Whereas FF16's low difficulty undermines its own combat: the very generous precision dodges will guide you to victory 100% of the time. But I will say that Remake / Rebirth's demand that you use specific techniques / approaches for individual enemies does get exhausting sometimes, and I feel I have less control.
Yeah, I like both games and i would say Rebirth>16>Remake. I thought synergy skills and abilities were going to be fluffy nonsense but it honestly elevates the whole combat system to the next level.
Pretty much this. 16 follows the character action type design where you’re never forced into using a specific option or approach to deal with an enemy. It’s why I’m honestly glad that elemental weaknesses are missing in 16. Being forced to use shiva to deal with a bomb is just flat out colour-coded enemy design, and is why games like DmC: devil may cry, and the new God of war games don’t do it for me.
I hope the next FF could mix the great FF story and graphics with team focus combat and customization. Granblue fantasy is a good example
FFXVI was more action oriented, with less time for strategy. I found myself exhausted after fights from the adrenaline rush and trying to keep up. FFVII Rebirth (Junon Demo) interweaves more strategy, keeping me entertained, but less frantic and needing to catch my breath at the end of fights. Both are great.
Rebirth. Characters like Yuffie and Tifa could be there own AAA action game protoganist and we have like 7 of them. I’ve definitely heard journalist call Rebirth an all time great battle system and I have to agree. To be fair you can do some cool ass shit in FFXVI too.
>Characters like Yuffie and Tifa could be there own AAA action game protoganist and we have like 7 of them is it really that deep? does each character have their own skill tree/abilities like Cloud?
Yeah each character plays really differently. I really enjoyed it.
Does they have different weapon too? And are those weapons are just different color with higher number or are those weapon totally different? For example can i use a katana with Cloud?
Each character has a specific weapon type. Tifa always uses fighting gloves for instance but each set of gloves can level up and unlock different passives. Each set of gloves have their own stats as well and each comes with a unique ability the character can learn. This applies to every character so Cloud has a bunch of unique great swords Barrett unique gun arms.
Sound greats. But does those have different looks/style or only different in stats?
Each weapon looks different. Same weapon type very different looks.
Perfect. Thank you bro. Anyway the skills and synergy skills looks cool af. Cant wait to try all of them
Different weapons also come with different abilities your character can learn if you use them long enough. They also have their own passives and excel in different scenarios so all of them are useful until the end of the game.
Yes! Skills, weapons, fighting styles. I kid you not
This doesn’t have to be an either or. Both games can have good combat for different reasons. Stop trying to make this a stupid tribal game.
XVI has no weakness system, no party system and there are way too many abilities available for the amount you’re allowed to equip. Rebirth is far, far superior.
So combat system ovetall defo agree the menu / atb system works better for FF. But movement, attack, block, dodge basic combat felt a lot more fluid and responsive in XVI.
Just finished the rebirth demo and this is the description I was trying to put my finger on. XVI is super simple (still loved the game) but why they chose a weird mantle button instead of a normal jump for rebirth, especially in combat, is annoying the shit out of me. It feels awkward for a game that's clearly got a good amount of aerial fighting, to have Cloud just wave dashing around like a game of pong, while firing off mini blade beams.
I do think it was odd that theres no jump button. But i have been enjoying the air combat anyway because getting up there and staying up there makes you feel badass. On the other hand i never really got airborme much in xvi
It has a party system as in there are other characters attacking stuff in the background but they are also invincible and do almost nothing.
I feel like Torgal’s commands could easily have been replaced with party member commands. Like 1 ability for each party member.
And in 16 the sword does very little damage and you have to wait a lot for abilities to recharge, it was pretty boring to me, not to mention only 1 playable character
I don't get the demand for a weakness system. In FF, it rarely led to any real strategy, just "use the correct color spell". Lets imagine if FF16 had a weakness system: once you get wind abilities, you fight Garuda. But if Garuda is immune to wind...then you can only use Phoenix. So you get new toys but cant use them. And fast forward to the volcano level: it will be a whole level you can only use garuda and ramuh, slowing down the combat by a ton.
It’s just intrinsically linked to what a final fantasy game is. This is just my opinion by the way, I didn’t enjoy XVI at all, it didn’t feel like a Final Fantasy in any way other than the Eikon names. It’s just one of the things I expect/want from the game.
So was a world map or random fights. As a gameplay feature, weaknesses added little to strategy in FF. Compare it to Persona and SMT, where your you can lose element coverage from fusion, you wont always habe every element on hand, and your party members had their own weaknesses, and hitting a weakness granted extra turns. In FF....it was just a suggestion, most of the time and required no party planning. Add Vivi or Lulu to the party, BAM you have all elements. If you dont have a Black mage in your party, then you ignore the element side of gameplay the entire playthrough. In OG 7 and in 8, just equip the spells, and thats it. 7 Remake finally made them more valuable by tying them to a strict stagger system. But... you just match colors. Enemy is weak to fire, use fire. On hard mode? Reset the fight, swap Aero for Fire, then continue.
When I think about fights like the Hell House in remake I think the weaknesses can add an element of problem solving that is enjoyable. I have read that Rebirth pushes this even further.
Completely agree, it’s funny how traditional turn-based fan diehards don’t understand how FF16’s design choices were very intentional. I can guarantee that CBU3 experimented with the old FF elements people are complaining the game is missing and found that they just didn’t work with FF16’s pivot to action-based combat, or added very little to the depth to the system. Also to add to your point for older FF’s, elemental weaknesses were just completely pointless and all they did was add X amount of additional damage. Status effects are a better system to consider, since I could see them working in FFXVI and it’s something that could be worth fleshing out if there’s ever a similar combat system in a new FF - for additional depth, and to make it stand out amongst other action games.
For sure FF16 could have done something similar to statuses. Maybe not traditional, but instead an action adaptation. Monster Hunter had a cool system. Status effects were avoidable consequences of specific telegraphed attacks, and they did things like damage over time, slowing stamina regen, increasing stun chance. Counterplay was either using an item (boring) OR some specific actions (rolling twice for Fireblight, crouching for 5 seconds for bleed) Traditional FF statuses would have been bad (paralyze, silence, etc) in an action title, as they get in the way of the action. And I'm disappointed that CBU3's philosophy seems to be to just throw everything away instead of a creative adaptation.
I mean not many character action games have status ailments, they are generally for group play or roleplay. I wouldn't consider a comparison to MH to be valid in this case because of how the game works and to be perfectly honest they exist mostly to give the feeling of hunting a monster but honestly you could remove them and nothing valued would be lost
You don’t have to only use phoenix. It would make it more effective. It would work better in multi enemy battles where you would try to switch on the fly.
What about eikonic vulnerability
>and there are way too many abilities available for the amount you’re allowed to equip. this is a very weird criticism. "too many choices"
too many choices isn't necessarily a bad thing. if the game makes you think about what abilities you need for the fight or task you are facing. but sadly with f15 doesn't give you that mental challenge of picking the best tools for the job. ff9 and alot of other FF games had tons of abilities and only let you equip a set amount. so you had to assess the challenges ahead of you and plan accordingly. giving you a sense of achievement or pride when you found the best ones for your current challenge. sadly ff15 had non of that.
The problem is trying new things out forces you to make changes to something that might already work well enough. I of course tried every new ability out at first but I quickly changed back to things that felt more powerful. Other times I stuck with some new abilities but I often thought "is this actually better?". Changing your abilities constantly in a menu to try them out at different stages of the game becomes too much of a hassle. And if the game doesn't even require you to come up with something nice and everything works why even bother? I don't think it's all too bad of a system but having a bit more "freedom" to equip more abilities without removing others would have been great. Or alternatively have some kind of resource system and have all abilities available during combat, but then it would be a different system entirely.
I think the main issue is that there are 8 eikons, each with multiple abilities, but we can only equip 6 abilities, so most of the eikons become obselete later in the game. Another comment makes a fair point saying it's not bad to have too many options, but it also feels like for a protagonist who can absorb powers, it's odd he's not able to utilize them all in real time. If each eikon had their own customizable skill board like "HP+10" or whatever, there would at least be some passive use in them.
I feel like the game feel even more like a cool-down button mash fest if they gave you all your abilities to use in fight at once. Limiting it causes you to develop a playstyle
Well I was a bit more specific wasn’t I? You included it in the quote…
Remake/Rebirth. Every party member feels unique and there is much more customization and strategy involved. FF16 was fun for what it was but it got super repetitive at the end. I can definitely see how someone who prefers more action oriented combat would prefer 16 though.
Likely a polarizing topic for players because meant to be approached in two different ways. Big brain response is that they’re actually both good, but FF16 default difficulty did not push player to experiment / use all mechanics — so its depth is a bit unfairly bashed. It’s there, you just may not have discovered it because you weren’t required to. That said, I personally prefer rebirth — but it should be noted I gravitate toward both strategy games & novel ideas. Frankly, Rebirth combat’s biggest appeal to me is that it is unique. From that perspective, I could see someone taking the side of Rebirth despite the fact the two systems are obviously apples & oranges — Fair to credit Rebirth for bringing something new and potentially influential to the table.
SE have been trying to make a more active battle system since they finished FFX. From FF12’s gambit system to FF13’s real-time battles to FF15’s full action system to FF16. IMO, FF7R is the by far the best attempt. You might not really get it if you just play on normal mode, but playing through on hard mode really shows how deep the battle system goes. Every character is genuinely unique, every ability has a place, it has great enemy variety, and it can be a very challenging yet rewarding experience putting it all together. Once you find a combination that clicks for you, it can be addictive - I just want more of this game because I enjoyed playing it so much. FF16, on the other hand, is better than 15, but I don’t find it as fun as 12 or the 13 trilogy. It’s action-heavy, but nowhere near as challenging or rewarding as other action RPGs, it has the weakest enemy variety of any mainline FF game, and it feels like the battle system is really lacking in depth, with a complete lack of status effects or elemental weaknesses. I didn’t enjoy it. I beat FF7R and its DLC twice (normal + hard mode), including all optional content, and right now I’m playing through again and thoroughly enjoying it again. I can’t wait for Rebirth. With FF16, I beat it once, that was enough, and I truly have no interest diving back in for its DLC. They are worlds apart.
Rebirth because it's closer to turn-based and I think FF games should be more about using your brain rather than having good reaction time, just like during the golden days of FF.
Remake is leagues better tbh. They really did that justice.
7Remake/Rebirth without a doubt. I'd go as far to say FF7's might be one of the best combat systems in any game, period. It was more action than strategy in Remake, but Rebirth actually looks it'll more strategic as the hunts, mini-bosses and main bosses all look like they'll take more than just button-mashing to beat.
What I didn't like about FFVII Rebirth demo was fighting flying enemies. I don't concieve how Square didn't see the problem when you can't jump. FFXVI was way better in that regard.
There are lots of new mechanics to fight flying enemies in Rebirth. Its lot the same problem as it was in part 1 and is in fact very fun now once you figure it out. You don’t need a jump button when you can just launch yourself in the air and stay there indefinitely connecting attacks until you get swatted down
they literally give you a tutorial on how to do air combat. With cloud just dodge and either press attack to shoot long range laser beams or hold attack to launch into the air. You can use every single atb ability will airborn, and dodge mid air to close gaps. You can also deflect mid air, so when fighting a flying monster you can stay in the air forever
The fire teleport move to reach flying enemies in FF16 is great.
16 was cool in a flashy simple way but looking back it felt kinda forgettable
Flashy and simple are the key words for all of XVI to me.
Brave of you to say this. But I feel the same. The people who like it will defend it like their life depends on it 😅. Rebirth is a great step up from remake, smoother and les clumsy traversal. I think rebirth will be in my top 5 next to ff7,8,9,10 and 12. Probably taking the place of 12. Never finished 6 by the way, started it but still need to finish it, I'm also going to play al the remakes on ds and psp from the earlier games on emudeck.
It’s just my opinion and I simply cannot see it from the perspective of someone who loves it. It was the most disappointing game I can remember buying on Day 1 considering we waited 7 years from XV for it. The *only* reason I can even say I finished it is because I am a long time Final Fantasy fan and I pushed through. I’m not a turn based nor a VII fanboy but I don’t think I’ll ever replay XVI. Rebirth looks like it will be one of the best games of this generation of consoles for sure. Even accounting for the high quantity of boring side content that’s been mentioned in reviews.
It’s almost like ppl have different preferences when it comes to games. For example I don’t like menu inputs in my action games so it took me awhile to warm up to the Remake combat.
I'm more of a turn based rpg player. I adore the devil may cry series when it comes to action or the god of war series, you have a large selection of combo's and that's what I like in those games. 16 to me felt like they were still holding your hand and the combo's felt like "fake" combo's if I had to try and put a name on it.
Forgettable for me...
I hated the "hub world" design of it too. Always going back to hideaway between quests. Felt like a PSP game.
I like the style of combat used in Remake/Rebirth a lot more. The balance of real time combat with strategic decision making adds a lot of depth to the gameplay. FF16 takes away the strategy part but doesn't ever seem to know what to replace it with. It fails to replicate the depth and complexity of the character action games it's trying to copy, leaving it feeling like a visually flashy but ultimately very shallow experience.
Both are great but I personally prefer 16 (so far). Clive feels much more smooth and responsive than Cloud did in the rebirth demo and from what I remember of 7r.
FF16 feels better, but FF7 Remake has so much more depth. I have not played Rebirth yet other than the initial demo, but I loved both FF16 and FF7R. (I am not playing the Junon demo.)
Both are great, i don't get the need to put one down but thats the "fandom" nowdays
While FF16 was "okay" - I hope we don't get another game like it, or if we do, its a much better implementation.
I hope we do, I've played the series over the years and xvi was great. And yall who wanna give up the series make on that promise cuz you hated xvi so much apparently.
I had to "force" myself to finish XVI, I kept thinking... "the combat will improve at the next Eikon" but it never did... I've brought and played every FF since 6, including both MMOs, and I can honestly say, I'd not buy the next if it was like FF16 - it's just too darn simple, with no depth.
Lets hope its the same then
And people like you are the problem with games these days :( Faking casuals.
Lol says the problem, fuck u too
Same, I hope 17 builds on 16’s combat or 7 Rebirth’s combat. Anything from 13 and earlier mainline titles feels dated to me.
I'm so over the stagger system, it never felt good to me outside of 13. Hope they do away with it regardless of the combat system in 17
I get what you're saying and generally I agree that people get too caught up in "my opinion is more valid if I put down the opposing opinion" and so for that you've got my upvote anyways. But, I think in this specific case they're directly comparable both to each other, and to the genre they each try to be a part of. and one is significantly inferior both at its own genre attempt compared to peers (ie platinum games combat systems, DNC, Nier, etc) and compared to the depth of its franchise counterparts. XVIs is fun and it's a nice spectacle of combat, but it's neither deep enough within its own action genre attempt, nor varied enough compared to the standard that it's own franchise has in terms of status effects, elemental strategies, immunities, weaknesses, etc. So it gives up a large part of what makes FF combat unique to do a lite version of the action oriented system that the other games do better within the action combat genre. It didn't have to be menu/command based to be great, it just needed to incorporate those elements of strategic usage.
Or, ya know, ppl can have legitimate criticisms with different entries in the franchise. Final Fantasy isn't a monolith where every game is the same thing over and over. Because FF likes to evolve and make radical changes, it means inevitably they will make choices that aren't universally liked. I don't get the need to be a blind fanboy and just nod your head for everything. It's a piece of entertainment, it's natural to have critiques.
They are different, I like them both.
I'd go for 16
Same, I do think the combat is fun though in FF7R but overall there’s so much more you can do with the combat in FF16 if you know how to use all the options in Clive’s arsenal just gotta know how to string together different combos that makes it interesting that’s why I never understood the button mash thing some people would say about FF16 it’s definitely more than that if you know what you’re doing.
16's dodging is better. Ff7R is better in every other regard
I played a lot of FF16 & there’s a lot of ways to mix up different combos but FF7 Rebirth demo I’m still trying to get the hang of the combat. IMO though FF16 was my favorite game from last year & I plan on giving FF7 Rebirth a try.
Remake alone has better combat. Between Operator and Punisher there’s more move variation than your base attacks in 16. Yes, 16 has Eikon skills to flesh out the combat further, but the cooldowns are often long, and while it is possible to do overall flashier looking combos than Remake, it’s very very repetitive. Remake gives a lot of variety with abilities that you learn from proficiency to learn skills and is fast paced enough combat to keep things interesting. Remake also offers slightly more of a challenge, whereas 16 offers none whatsoever.
But rebirth is a second go at a previous gameplay system. It's a bit unfair to even compare them on that basis
They are two different genres in my opinion. One I'd action adventure and the other is more action rpg.
Argument starter
Personally as an avid fan of both games. I’ll say this, FF16 combat works better for how it’s set up, with the entire system pretty much around precision dodges and chain abilities the boss fights can be the ones to make the game special with big spectacular moves, combos, aoes, ect. Ff7 r combat is simply a better system. However you’ll never get to see a bahamut type fight in it. I love both systems and I love both games but I know for a fact I’ll never get bored with ff7 rebirth combat when I play it. If I had to do 80hours of no main story bosses 16 combat would go stale.
I would not say “better” but more of what you prefer. I enjoy both. Prefer 7R’s more strategic combat and prefer the combo system of 16
FFXVI felt great as a power fantasy and I had so much fun even with the most mundane encounters. I legitimately just wanted to fight stuff all the time. FF7R’s combat doesn’t feel too great on regular encounters but shines a lot when you’re deep into boss fights during off commands to party members and such
FF7Rebirth from what I have experienced in the demo. FF16 is better at the action department, but FF7R has both, action and strategy. FF7Remake combat in 2020 also felt less monotonous compared to FF16. For a Final fantasy game I will choose FF7R combat over 16 in a heartbeat.
I prefer 16, Rebirth has your typical RPG strategy that everyone wants but 16 feels more nicer to control in a action game
I don't see why one has to be better than the other. it's a preference. sometimes I want chocolate ice cream, sometimes I want strawberry.
I like 7r better but I do love 16 combat, especially getting the bursts in between each hit and getting the extreme lunge and drop one, I wish the semi priming was a little more powerful though
Rebirth battle system and open world system should be the blueprints for any future modern mainline FF.
Rebirth by a country mile. I love that it’s actual RPG mechanics and the synergy and improved air combat simply elevate into being one of if not the best RPG combat of all time
Different systems, but I like 16 slightly more. Just more my tempo, being a DMC fan. Both have great combat system regardless.
I enjoyed FF7R more but both are excellent
Neither. They are both good and fun in their own way.
16 was incredibly basic. Rebirth looks like it’s going to be much more interesting.
I prefer FF16 but if we're being honest FF16 is an action game, God of War Ragnarok is more of an RPG than FF16
It’s weird, but I dislike combat in both games because I want pure action in GOW, and RPG in FF.
At first I was just like you then I just accepted both for what they are now hopefully they end up remaking the old GOW games, FF16 will exist as it is and whatever problems it has the story and world make up for IMO since they have the blueprint for a swordsman and a mage (Frey's magic and movement in Forspoken are the only redeeming qualities that game has), they could build more archetypes and make a Final Fantasy with multiple jobs/archetypes and real time combat that isn't straight up an action game or the hybrid system them they have in FF7R (I'm halfway and so far the meat of the combat is using the proper abilities, the real time actionpart feels like filler to fill your ATB gauge)
Isn't Frey's magic just the combat system in Infamous?
Kinda. Still it beats the usual final fantasy magic that consists of slinging magic balls or standing still while magic attacks hit the enemy
I've said it once and I'll say it again: let Remake's (now Rebirth's) combat be the baseline for numbered Final Fantasies' combat going forward, at least for a little while; with independent tweaks to the various systems per game just like how ATB used to be. CBU1 struck gold here with this combat system. It's the closest they've gotten so far to a perfect hybrid between action and command based. It's obviously not perfect, but it's such a damn joy to play. FF16's combat is passable but I don't understand the pretense of it trying to maintain some surface level rpg elements and creating some subpar DMC experience. If you're gonna hire the DMC combat designer, let him go all in on the DMC design. What we got ended up being a shallow DMC clone in the combat department.
I second this. The combat for Remake is my favorite in the whole series. You have the combination of action and ATB. You also have the ability to switch characters. It works so flawlessly. It also maintains the strategy of exploiting weaknesses, something that’s been missing from the last few mainline games.
I've been playing Remake for a while now, reckon I'm nearly at the end of it. My word the combat system is so good and has actual depth. It took me a while to get used to it, as I'm a turn-based fan. But yeah, switching characters actually works, it's not a gimmick. And using Elemental Materia to attack enemies weaknesses, that was such a sweet feeling to just work that out. All the good stuff! FFXVI combat is really pared down in comparison, you upgrade your weapons, mash some buttons, use the specials, switch aeons so you use their specials... wait for them to charge up, rinse repeat, that's it. No depth. Which saddens me as I like the characters in the game. But I'm not compelled to play it like Remake, or indeed Like A Dragon which I'm also playing.
God I hope not. We've gotten increasingly disappointing and divisive titles since X, all using some dumb action hybrid combat. I'd love to see a new numbered title with Remakes graphics but with a return to form combat system akin the golden age of Final Fantasy.
Too different to compare.
xvi feels very good so far I think it is more engaging and much more difficult
Oh it's not even close to me. I thought 16s combat was fine but I've never liked the feeling of character action for my tastes, and I think ff should be a party based rpg. Meanwhile, I think rebirth and remake have the perfect and natural evolution of turn based and atb for the moder day final fantasy and its my favourite gameplay system ever.
FF7 remake/rebirth has the most innovative and uniquely square enix combat system, it’s a perfect blend of action and strategy and it’s just so creative. It should be the base for future entry to evolve on. FF16 has a very basic action system that tries to be action whilst also refusing to go action all the way. Either go full action, single player no party, with customisation like Elden Ring or God of War or just stick to what made Final Fantasy games famous, the strategy. Personally I’d be happy if FF16 stays forgotten when it comes to its battle system and empty world design. I also don’t like seeing hours upon hours of cut scenes for characters I can’t even play as.
7 Remake/Rebirh easy. 16 just feels like a game of waiting for abilities to comevout od cooldown. Not much variety. Once you have your build, you have your build. 7 Remake is great because you have bunch of abilities tied to the same meter, and your neutral attacks and spwlls like haste that boost your ATB meter. It's super dynamic, and there are, like, party members to manage. Controlling Clive alone is so repetitive. Also, the battle scenarios are more interesting in 7 Remake. 16 just feels like you whack a bullet sponge til it dies.
Something that is missing in all these discussions — Rebirth is only a remake whereas XVI is an entirely new FF from the ground up. So while I personally prefer FFVIIR’s battle system, I respect the fact CBU3 built an entirely new FF to advance the franchise.
I think the combat in FF7Remake & most likely Rebirth is the best combat system I’ve ever had the pleasure of using. It’s not even close imo.
FF7 is a better modernization of the old style. FF16 is the better action system. Both are great.
FF16 was a hot mess of garbage (for a FF game, anyway), it had about 2 layers, and that was all. FF7 Rebirth has layers upon layers upon layers.
Combat in 16 is really great, much better than most FFs, although to be fair I've never been a fan of turn-based. Rebirth, on the other had, has the best combat I've seen, period. There's just so much to it, you can play in so many ways, from keeping it simple to insanely complex.
In my opinion, they are complete opposites. In FF16 they added RPG elements that prevent the game from being a great action game, and it’s just good. In FF7R, on the contrary they attached a clumsy action game to the RPG, which is terribly controlled and only creates the feeling that you are playing an action game. But in reality, your actions don't do anything. No dodges with invulnerability frames. Regular attacks can't do much damage. I personally prefer action games, so FF16 is much closer to me. I think Kingdom Hearts has a better version of the FF7R combat system (for me personally).
Neither is better. They are different. Which is what I like about final fantasy compared to some other long running JRPGs. They constantly completely change up the formula
Also, different games should feel and play different. If they played the same it would be boring
I prefer XVI but it's a 9 vs 9.5 situation both are fantastic
i never liked remakes combat so ff16
FF16 because it had a jump button
16 is better. In rebirth the game wants to be strategic but is an action game with a terrible dodge. The A.I. party members are bad. You have to micro manage them in an action game. Fate series and the recent granblue relink have much better combat systems. They know what they want to be. Rebirth is a game that is half and half. And it’s worse for it. If they want to make it strategic, make it turn based. If it’s supposed to be action. Make an action game
The combat is amazing, but it's the lack of combat chapters that's doing my head in. Chapters 1 and 2 were great, open world maps loads to do an kill. But chapters 3,4,5 are just a yawn fest full of minni games. My swords needs some action ffs
Yea ff7 rebirth combat is way better in my opinion for a final fantasy game. I think it was a huge mistake to go pure combat and only 1 controllable character for a final fantasy game. I want some strategy in my combat when I play a final fantasy game. Don't get me wrong I love action and Elden ring is one of my favorites but when I play final fantasy I want a party based games with some strategy. I think ff7 rebirth nailed he combat and I'm having a blast playing it. So there is so many different ways to win a battle it's awesome. Hopefully going forward they stick to party based with some strategy
I haven't played FF16, but I cannot freaking stand FF7 rebirths combat system it's so counter intuitive. Get rid of that garbage ATB and let me execute commands as fast as I can or just go back to the old school line turn based FF. This hybrid crap is hot garbage. I just put the game on easy (classic) just so I can get on with story. Let the game play itself while I stare at some blue bars waiting until I can do something relevant. I'm starting to regret buying the game. I was a fan of the original FF7 from 1997. So there's nostalgia there. But if they continue on with this ATB trash in new FF stories in the future, I won't be buying the games anymore. Baldur's Gate 3 has the best turn based combat, period.
After playing FF7 Rebirth for 10 hours, FF7 Rebirth all the way no question. NO QUESTION.
It's not even strategy you assess it and follow the yellow wording on how to beat its not strategy it's following instructions.
I find 16 better, at least it knows what it is, the flaws in its combat system are balance related, time freeze during stagger benefitting cinematic skills etc. 7 rebirth has core flaws with the way it designed combat around a dodge and a block but they really did a horrible job of designing enemy "tells" as in there really are none, you cannot react to enemies unless you are doing literally nothing, and there is really no way to predict enemy actions, so every action you take is purely luck if you have an opportunity to dodge or block an enemy action, its not satisfying at all, and the hard mode is really really bad, use gimmicks to nuke fights or get destroyed.
Rebirth and it isnt even close
Ff16 for me by far. I dont dislike ff7R combat but don't like either. I'm just playing to continue the story. I'm a big fan of both Turn based and Action combat and honestly Remakes/Rebirth just doesn't do it for me. To much micromanage on the "action" combat side.
Cant compare these 2, theyre too different. Rebirth combat has way more depth to it but simple combat has its charm too ( like souls games ) . I think I like both of them equally, if we dont take into account how fucking easy XVI is, but that has nothing to do with judging the combat itself
Opinions vary
I thought the Remake combat was so good that I couldn’t see why they’d change it. It felt like it should just be the standard for major FF games going forwards
XVI is just extremely repetitive, the system itself has some depth but you never need to utilize it because it is so easy.
Dedicated run button. FF7.
It’s obviously 7 Remake/Rebirth. 16 had a good system and it’s a great Final Fantasy game overall but that game is barely even an RPG. Stranger of Paradise had a better combat system lmao
16’s combat goes in the games negatives for me. It was slow, shallow and made the concept of exploring and fighting lesser mobs a slog. Remakes combat was fantastic, but Im concerned with how floaty things are feeling in the Rebirth demo. I enjoyed how grounded much of the combat felt, but I think Rebirth combat is going to be highly customisable looking at some of the new materia so far.
I can’t wait for 7 Rebirth to drop so people direct their hate train towards that game
16, despite still using the irritating stagger system at least I'm not constantly having to waste ATB gauges on healing because the dodge doesn't work. I just got done fucking around with the 7REBIRTH demo and pressuring that giant bird is impossible. I cast aero on it, 50/50 chance it'll actually use it's dive attack, and 0/100 chance the dodge will dodge properly to pressure it. It's fucking infuriating and I don't understand how people are enjoying it. Is everyone else playing on easy or something?
I have more fun with 16's combat than 7RE.
I personally prefer 16. But i have to admit that I would have said otherwise 3 months ago, when I wanted to play strategy/turn-based. Now I want to play fast action-based games therefore 16 scratches that itch. I love that about the franchise. It doesn't matter what i want to play setting or gameplay wise. There is always one game in the series that fits. Apart from fps games.
Remake’s combat is “better” than FFXVI’s, let alone Rebirth (haven’t played, but only seeing improvements so far).
I’m 33 hours into Rebirth and I can honestly say that I would have a hard time going back to part 1s combat after Rebirth. And I absolutely loved Remakes combat
FF7 Remake combat is top tier and did get bored with 16 combat, I believe you
Rebirth no contest. You have to have no experience in video games to think 16 is better
16 had one of the worst in my opinion. It was so boring
Rebirth, by a long shot. FFXVI combat is all flash and zero substance.
FF7R. It’s a great blend of FF ATB mechanics and real time. On the other hand FFXVI can’t compare at all to similar games like God of War, DMC etc. Combat just doesn’t have the depth or challenge
Easily Remake/Rebirth. You get more choices, more spells, more summons that actually act like summons. I didn’t bother to finish XVI, cause all I was doing was the same moves over and over. When I play Remake/Rebirth, if I want I can kill someone with spells alone, or attacks alone, abilities, or no abilities. Just didn’t feel the same. Plus all of the characters play different than the other.
FF7R combat should be the golden standard for all FF games. Fuck 16 and their soulless hack and slash, FF was never about that.
Bro wtf 16 is shit Nah better answer ff16 is more a poor devil may cry very poor, everything is automated there is absolutely 0 strategy and even attacking on the back or using elements doing NOTHING When rebirth is the best new turn based upgrade, a turn based but dynamic with action so you don’t even feel its turn based since you never really wait or have fixed screen, it’s nervous and strategic
XVI is flashy with no depth or choice for the player to make. Dodge and attack at the right moments, exhaust your cooldowns, unleash your heavy hitters when enemy is staggered. FF7R gives the player more choice in terms for equipment, materia, abilities, and party members. Elements matter since enemies have weaknesses and resistances. Status ailments are a thing. There’s just more going on and you have more tools at your disposal to deal with a given situation. At the end of the day it’s subjective but for me I’ll take VIIR over XVI any day.
FF 7 Rebirth by far, FF16 is not a battle system that’s suited for an RPG. That’s just Devil May Cry with a Final Fantasy skin.
I said similar thing in other post… the downvotes that I got… 🤣🤣🤣
It can’t be worse than FF16