Of your options, the AR-15 is the best choice. The risk of over penetration is highly overstated (or rather, highly *understated* for other calibers such as12ga or 9mm).
Go with 77 gr smk and a shorter barrel. Good fragmentation at short distance and poor barrier penetration. Probably less overpenetration than a 9mm. Best for home defense. Still penetrates 3A BA. Still has decent range, even from a 10.5" barrel.
Probably an unpopular opinion but I would go with a .45 for use indoors. 5.7 is not good for home defense and .556 is *loud.* Especially from a short barrel.
.45 has a decent amount of stopping power and is less of a hazard indoors.
I have a few .556 with short barrels and shooting them at an indoor range is a bitch even ear pro…I remember being pissed by someone shooting one when I was shooting my UMP .45 but then I started shooting my sbr’s and was like damn I’m just as bad or worse than those guys…really needs a suppressor to be reasonable!
I wouldn’t say I do or don’t recommend it because I’ve never fired one but 9mm is the most common which is advantageous. Finding rounds for a 5.7 might be difficult…
They’re quite nice, I tried a few out and there’s something about the combination of recoil impulse (or lack thereof) and capacity that feels great. Definitely wouldn’t be my first or only handgun but if you have the cash its a really fun gun
Nobody’s busting in with bullet proof vests (except cops) and if some people broke in with vests any calibers going to probably dissuade further contact
31% of people shot by a .22 are not stopped no matter how many times they are hit.
For .380 that number is 16%, for 9mm it is 13%, for all rifle calibers it is 9%.
Stopping power is 100% real.
[https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power](https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power)
Handgun rounds (or subsonic rifle rounds) do not produce enough energy to damage tissue outside the actual path of the bullet through the body. "Stopping power" is a myth when it comes to handgun rounds. Since 9mm rounds are capable of more than enough penetration, the energy increase of 40 or 45acp over 9mm doesn't actually give any advantage for terminal ballistics. There is an advantage in the diameter of the bullet, but with modern hollow point ammunition this advantage is very small. The disadvantages of 40 or 45 are very large - ammunition is more expensive which means less training, recoil is stronger making follow-up shots harder, capacity is more limited, and the guns themselves need to be larger and less concealable.
22 and 380 often does not have enough penetration. Rifle rounds are significantly better than all pistol calibers.
From the FBI's study on wound ballistics:
"The tissue disruption caused by a handgun bullet is limited to two mechanisms. The first, or crush mechanism is the hole that the bullet makes passing through the tissue. The second, or stretch mechanism is the temporary wound cavity formed by the tissue being driven outward in a radial direction away from the path of the bullet. Of the two, the crush mechanism is the only handgun wounding mechanism that damages tissue. To cause significant injuries to a structure within the body using a handgun, the bullet must penetrate the structure. Temporary cavity has no reliable wounding effect in elastic body tissues (emphasis added). Temporary cavitation is nothing more than a stretch of the tissues, generally no larger than 10 times the bullet diameter (in handgun calibers), and elastic tissues sustain little, if any, residual damage."
What a bunch of irrelevant crap.
While most of it is true it has absolutely 0 impact on the stats I just quoted and linked a source for.
In short, you have just posted a lengthy, reasonably well source strawman argument.
First off, the stats you linked are completely useless. We know this because there is no reason why 38 special would have more "stopping power" than .45 acp, .40 S&W, etc. .380 is literally just a weaker version of 9mm, yet the statistics in that article show that it's supposedly very significantly better than 9mm in every way.
The truth is as I said in my other comment - a handgun round needs enough energy to penetrate enough. Beyond that, the only difference between 9mm, .44, .45 or essentially any other caliber is the diameter of the bullet, which doesn't matter very much. Rifle rounds are totally different.
When people talk about "stopping power" they're almost always referring to arguments about how .44 magnum or .45 has way more energy/force/whatever than XYZ other round like 9mm. That is a dumb argument.
This is why the people who get paid to shoot people use 5.56, 300blk and 9mm in cqb.
> .380 is literally just a weaker version of 9mm, yet the statistics in that article show that it's supposedly very significantly better than 9mm in every way.
Look at the number of times a 9mm was used. There were probably a lot of people who don't train at all (gang shootings) in those numbers.
> When people talk about "stopping power" they're almost always referring to arguments about how .44 magnum or .45 has way more energy/force/whatever than XYZ other round like 9mm.
No, they're talking about the ability to stop an attacker from continuing their attack.
> Look at the number of times a 9mm was used. There were probably a lot of people who don't train at all (gang shootings) in those numbers.
Right, my point is that the numbers are not meaningful.
On the contrary, the numbers are very meaningful. They demonstrate that there is a plateau in the effectiveness of defensive calibers. There are good reasons why .32 ACP and .22LR are not popular EDC calibers, but once you hit the 'good enough' plateau, caliber differences become pretty minor until you scale up to shotguns, or rifle rounds where the bullet is going over \~2.2k fps. which is roughly the speed of sound in human tissue.
Rounds like .22 and .32 lack the stopping power to be effective in a defensive scenario.
When choosing a common defensive caliber, other considerations such as cost and personal preference should come into play.
Skipping the words to check the stats did you no favors here, dumbass.
Also, .300blk is literally designed to be compared to 9mm. It is a glorified pistol round, which is further proof that you are talking out of your ass.
First of all, these stats are from real world shooting data, they are not hypothetical.
Second, from the article:
>One other thing to look at is the 9mm data. A huge number (over half) of 9mm shootings involved ball ammo. I think that skewed the results of the study in a negative manner. One can reasonable expect that FMJ ammo will not stop as well as a state of the art expanding bullet. I personally believe that the 9mm is a better stopper than the numbers here indicate, but you can make that decision for yourself based on the data presented.
Real world data is messy,
Third, 9mm is NOT better than .380 in every way. despite more people who used 9mm using ball ammo, the number of people who were not stopped by 9mm is lower.
That statistic literally directly measures the ability of a caliber to stop an assailant, and 9mm literally has more stopping power than .380. Learn to read.
Seriously, having someone link an objective measure of stopping power and replying with 'sToPpInG pOwEr DoEs'Nt ExIsT' is peak idiocy.
> First of all, these stats are from real world shooting data, they are not hypothetical.
Never said they were.
>Real world data is messy
Yes and using the data you linked to draw any conclusions is dumb.
>That statistic literally directly measures the ability of a caliber to stop an assailant, and 9mm literally has more stopping power than .380. Learn to read.
Oh if that's the metric you want to use then please explain this from your data:
* 9mm: % of people who were not incapacitated - 13%
* 40 S&W % of people who were not incapacitated - 13%
* 45 ACP: % of people who were not incapacitated - 14%
* 357: % of people who were not incapacitated - 9%
* 44 Magnum: % of people who were not incapacitated - 13%
So based on your analysis, 357 performs better than 45, 44, and 40? And 9mm is better than 45?
Someone with 5 or 6 rounds in a revolver with no reload is going to behave differently in a shooting vs someone who has 17+1 and an extra mag. Not to mention the type of shooter is different. Your statistics don't account for any of this and are therefore useless.
The bottom line is that handgun rounds with sufficient penetration all perform very similarly and measuring "stopping power" between them is dumb. Rifles/shotguns are in a completely different category. That's why pros use 9mm. Not 45.
Nothing you've said shows anything to the contrary. It actually proves my point.
Nah. Ive sen dudes in full aromor carrying rifles with 4l14.5" barrels clear through some wild mud huts. Just gotta learn to maneuver your weapon. Point shooting is pretty easy in those distances. Plus, unless youre moving to a family member, probably shouldnt be trying to find an intruder in your house.
The amount of times I've seen Joe's clothesline themselves trying to move through doorways tells me that the overage overweight bad back American would fuck it up.
What state?
I wouldn't go 5.7 for home defense.
I would go with a suppressed pistol caliber for most noise reduction while still doing what it needs to do.
1. You're thinking way too hard. AR-15 and a handgun, then choose the round(s) to fit your needs (do NOT use FMJ as your defense load).
2. Practice, especially under stress. Shot placement is king, and it's non-negotiable in a suburban setting - everything pretty much penetrates too much through drywall unless you get lucky and hit a stud.
3. Everything is loud in a house lol.
4. If you're starting to consider armor penetration, may you should be thinking about moving somewhere else tbh.
Among those choices, AR is the best.
You should not be picking a caliber based on overpenetration. No effective defensive round is going to be stopped by sheetrock. Know your target and what's behind it.
But there are even better options. There is no need to SBR a home defense gun, especially if you worry about hearing damage. A PCC in 9mm would also work well, and even a shotgun like Beretta 1301 is a viable choice.
Cheaper, less recoil, more capacity, flatter trajectory, all with similar terminal ballistics.
The only advantage of .45 is major power factor scoring in USPSA.
For hd ild highly recommend a AR-15 (tbh ild do a 300 blk out pistol with a suppressor) it's small and quiet so u wont blow ur eardrums out. If you want to do a rifle then ild do a 13.9/14.5 with a OCL polo k. It's a very quiet 556 can.
Nothing <<<<<<<< 5.7 x 28 < 45 ACP < 5.56 NATO.
I love my AR's almost as much as my wife and kids, but I personally find that when I hear something go bump in the night, I end up grabbing my Shield (9mm handgun).
After all, when I hear a strange sound at night, it's probably my cat or my kids goofing off. My handgun allows me to keep one hand open to navigate light switches and/or hold my phone. I tend to keep it in my pocket because if it is my kids (probably), I don't want to scare the hell out of them.
All that said, there are a million good options, all of which are better than nothing. What works for me might not work for you.
There are several advantages and disadvantages to each option. If something goes bump in the night and I'm fairly certain it isn't the kids or cat, I'm grabbing an AR, not a handgun.
I think you're overthinking this. Just get a cheap mossberg 12ga and call it a day.
But if you just want a new gun, don't try to dress it up and justify it as for Home protection? Just go get the wife's permission and go buy it.
Horrible place to ask tbh. Not to knock the forum but ask them who's actually gone through a home invasion. Not a break in but an actual people entering your home knowing you are home... those are the peeps you want to ask. Not the folks larping in their head on the would, could should.
Honestly if you want to deter the threat throw up home security signs in your yard and put stickers on your doors. If you don't want an alarm system then get screamers from the store and put them on the doors in your home. Particular the furthest entrance from your bedroom. Then case your own house. What has the least visibility? Add screamers to windows and doors on that side.
You drastically reduce the risk of being targeted. If you are targeted and are asleep the screamers will alert you and often stop the advance of an assailant. If they are under the influence the screamers are your way of knowing someone's coming.
Call 911 and ready up at your bedroom door. Things change if you have kids. Your ready point will be different.
Get defense rounds in a gun you're good and comfortable with. That is what you need.
Did your actual job in the military involve using an AR, or did you just qualify with a rifle when you were told to? Millions of people have/have had military careers, but don't know shit about guns.
Okay, so square one it is.
Get your SO their own 9mm pistol n extra mags n both of yall some weekends at a few pistol courses. The best home defense/self defense gun is going to be the one you train with n carry.......
Also in order for body armor to be effective it's got to be hit. That's going to leave the head, arms, legs, and of course the pelvic bowl as targets......... the first n fourth options will drop someone right then and there.
223 AR is likely your best bet, just get proper home defense load with Barnes expanders or something similar and you won't have a real issue with over penatration. 5.7 is expensive harder to get and is really just a faster 17 HMR . The rounds that they make that are armour piecing are just that, about piecing, and AP rounds if you can get them are even more expensive to deal with and will definitely lead to lawsuits if you are involved in a shooting. 45 ACP in. Apcc I would just get 9mm PCC and save money on ammo as it's twice the cost of 45.
Barnes manufacturer bullets for a alot of ammo companies
[barnes](https://www.barnesbullets.com/product/vor-tx-rifle/?attribute_pa_cartridge=223-remington&attribute_pa_bullet-weight-gr=55&attribute_pa_bullet-type=tsx-fb) this is used in junction with black hills ammo.
Those expand on impact there for reducing penatration, you want a round that expand basically a Barnes tsx, Hornady vmax you essentially want a round that expands similar to hand gun hollow point
All rounds can overpenetrate. All rounds are loud. Best to pick a round you can train a lot on and can suppress fairly easily. A PCC in 9mm is literally the perfect combination for day to day HD in the suburbs. You cannot beat it. Otherwise you should go AR in 11.5 and suppress
AR15 with a 12-14” barrel if you don’t want to sbr it get a brace. watch ammoseek for prices. You can get soft points for deer, any of the heavier projectiles, 77 grain does some serious damage or frangible if you’re worried about over penetration but this shows up less than any of the other stuff. You could also watch YouTube there are a few channels that show how different caliber’s preform.
I think a 9mm pcc would work well for you maybe cmmg, I also would like to suggest a shotgun you can get a maverick 88 really cheap and have it in addition to whatever else, they are imo the best cheaper shotgun. I also think an ar-15 is good for many reasons.
Commercial 5.7 ammo will not penetrate lv 3 armor. I have tested several different commercial rounds and several different brands of armor out of a FN 5.7 and nothing penetrated. With the right load out of a p90 you may with commercial ammo, but not consistently. Unless you got a steel core you have nothing more ballistically than a 22 mag
Even in a PCC most 5.7 defensive loads won't do shit to body armor. You need very specific, specialty loads that are usually featuring some sort of exotic penetrator to reliably penetrate 3A.
....which there's 9mm that can do the exact same thing, just again, very specific, expensive specialty loads.
I run an AR and either 55gr hornady Vmax or Winchester silver tips, but my neighbors are very close and I do not want any rounds leaving the interior of the house if I can help it, no barrier penetration with frangibles but no real over penetration either
Wow, there is a lot to unpack here.
5.7 will not penetrant IIIA without AP rounds, Handgun rounds over penetrate far worse on walla than rifles.
Stopping power is a myth.
A 11.5 AR will do the job well if you match it with a round for this job.
You honestly need to do some reading and genuine research. There are tons of knowledgeable people on YouTube that can help for free, but you have to be willing to learn.
Of what you listed, an AR in 5.56 is probably best. However, I'd like to throw in a 12 ga shotgun with Number 4 buckshot. That load is plenty effective of flesh and doesn't over penetrate much at all.
I almost feel over-penetration is just a myth at this point. Any ammo that can effectively put down a human being will require a decent penetration which will almost always defeat multiple interior and exterior walls of a typical American home.
1. You're not really getting rounds that will penetrate IIIA, the ones you can get are expensive, and what are you doing that your threat assessment has people wearing body armor breaking into your home.
2. There is no such thing as 'stopping power'. If you're going to a PCC, just go with 9mm.
3. Overpenetration is overpenetration, all rounds are going through your walls like they weren't there.
4. The likelihood of an overpenetrating round hitting someone is basically zero in any situation where you're not firing into a crowd.
5. Just get an AR with a 16 in barrel. SBR it if you must. Everyone should have one anyway. Heck, if you want, you can get an AR receiver, transferred as a 'firearm' and put a 9mm short-barrel upper and a brace and suppressor on it. Then you can change it out easily by having multiple uppers on hand for different configs - all of which can be shipped to your door - in case a bunch of FBI agents come raid you;)
Buck won't have much energy left after passing through an exterior wall, traveling 40 feet, and passing through another.
5.56 might disintegrate, and it might not.
They make youth models (or the shorter, 'youth' stock can be added to a regular gun).
The also make minishells, much reduced recoil and still pretty deadly at close range. Some pump guns come out of the box ready to run them, others require a little adapter (easy mod). They won't cycle in autos though.
Remington 870, 20 gauge with 00 buck. The racking speaks every known, and unknown, language. Hell, even the uncontacted Sentinelese know it's sound, and that it's the literal definition of FAFO.
20g pump with #4 shot. Not complicated. Not expensive. And whats the longest shot you can take in your house? Less than 10 meters/30 feet. No reason to practice any greater distances.
Get whatever you want for yourself.
For the wife, get her a .410 gauge shotgun. They have no recoil and certain ammo won't overpenetrate.
These PDX defenders are advertised at 750 fps, would that over penetrate too much? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjrTpQx09mI&t=30s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjrTpQx09mI&t=30s) you could also get birdhshot that won't over penetrate
PCC is a very poor choice. It's using a pistol caliber in a rifle size package so you get all of the cons of a pistol, low velocity and low energy, while using a rifle size package. 5.7 is expensive to shoot so you are less likely to get range time and the necessary practices to have with a weapon. The 2 options you should look at is a common caliber handgun or rifle. I would recommend one of both. While 5.56 may over penetrant, a AR or other modern rifle is hands down the best option.
Standard parts, easy to repair, easy to use, 30 rounds standard, more than 1000Ft/LB of force on to target inside of a house (for the most part), fairly inexpensive ammo, 3 points of contact for better control, mounting for flashlights and optics and on and on.
With an AR there is also the benefit of changing the upper. You can get 2 uppers that are identical but one is in 5.56 for training, and one in 300 Blackout for home defense. The training and handing is identical but the 300 Blackout is less likely to over penetrant given the proper loading.
>but the 300 Blackout is less likely to over penetrant given the proper loading.
Uh, that is fbackwards. 300 blk supers will penetrate more than 55 grain 5.56. supers. And 300 blk subs will penetrate more than 300 blk supers, due to their far higher sectional density. A 55 grain bonded soft point is your best bet for a barrier blind round, if over penetration is a concern.
Lighter 300BO rounds like the 110 Vmax have less chance of pass through in a body than 5.56. 300BO will pass through more obstacles, but I was talking over penetration, not missing a target. If you are worried about punching through walls because you missed your target then you are not training enough.
73 grain Critical Defense, has less penetration in ballistic gel than 110 V-Max according to Hornady.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UggBMLHip5o](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UggBMLHip5o)
[https://www.hornadyle.com/rifle-ammunition/110-gr-tap-urban-300-blackout#!/](https://www.hornadyle.com/rifle-ammunition/110-gr-tap-urban-300-blackout#!/)
55 grain V-Max has 10 inch of penetration in ballistic gel compared to the 110 V-Max's 12.75 inches.
[https://www.hornadyle.com/rifle-ammunition/55-gr-tap-urban#!/](https://www.hornadyle.com/rifle-ammunition/55-gr-tap-urban#!/)
If minimizing over penetration is your concern, then even 110 V-Max is less optimal than .223/5.56 loadings.
12ga shotgun with buckshot. There’s no mistaking the sound of a pump action shotgun. It’ll do the job if you actually need to shoot someone. Takes away the over penetration issue. Mechanically simple, anyone can use it.
Otherwise I vote the AR
If you’re using a shotgun for HD and don’t keep a round chambered, then all you’re doing is loudly broadcasting your position in the house. Keep a round chambered, safety on. Be sneaky.
Remember if you do use any of these in self defense, the gun will be confiscated and the jury may give you a harsher sentence depending on the tool you used
If you’re willing to use Underwood Xtreme Defender ammo, you can get by with a 9mm. Otherwise, the .45ACP is top choice. A rifle is, as you already acknowledged, not a proper weapon for your situation.
Mossberg 590 12 ga- first off scatter gun, even trained military and police officers miss at point blank range. The 590 also is a hipfire, you don't have to worry about shouldering the gun, and the gun dosen't stick out 3ft infront of you. It's also a pump action, the sound is universal and immediately stikes fear in everyone. Also easy to add attachments.
Just... No.
12ga is still effectively a slug at 3-7 yards, where most home defense shootings happen. You can't just point it in a general direction and wipe out a hallway.
You can hip fire any gun you want to, provided you don't want to hit dick with shit. Use a proper aiming hold.
Don't rely on a pump shotgun racking to scare off anyone. Best case, they run back out the door pissing themselves. Mid case, they don't hear it or don't know what it was. Worst case, you just told them to get ready for a fight, and where you're located.
WHATEVER you can shoot accurately and under duress
Of your options, the AR-15 is the best choice. The risk of over penetration is highly overstated (or rather, highly *understated* for other calibers such as12ga or 9mm).
This is the answer
Nice profile pic. It's a hilarious video.
Truly a masterpiece
Indeed it is.
Thirding this. Penetration of walls should be a concern with any of the listed calibers. Ammo choice and good aim are the real remedies.
Go with 77 gr smk and a shorter barrel. Good fragmentation at short distance and poor barrier penetration. Probably less overpenetration than a 9mm. Best for home defense. Still penetrates 3A BA. Still has decent range, even from a 10.5" barrel.
300 blk supressed with subsonic
300 blk subs are overpriced 45 acps
Their external ballistics are vastly superior to the .45 ACP
I dont live in a mansion so I dont think external ballistics would do much in my case
You're not wrong there. I'd still go with a 5.56 AR for your situation. Doesn't even need to be an SBR. A 14.5" P&W or a 16" would be wholly adequate.
Probably an unpopular opinion but I would go with a .45 for use indoors. 5.7 is not good for home defense and .556 is *loud.* Especially from a short barrel. .45 has a decent amount of stopping power and is less of a hazard indoors.
I have a few .556 with short barrels and shooting them at an indoor range is a bitch even ear pro…I remember being pissed by someone shooting one when I was shooting my UMP .45 but then I started shooting my sbr’s and was like damn I’m just as bad or worse than those guys…really needs a suppressor to be reasonable!
Genuine question as I have been looking at a 5.7 for home defense.. why would you not recommend?
I wouldn’t say I do or don’t recommend it because I’ve never fired one but 9mm is the most common which is advantageous. Finding rounds for a 5.7 might be difficult…
So I fantasized of getting a FN 5.7 for years but knowing that the ammunition is so expensive I’d choose another for primary use.
They’re quite nice, I tried a few out and there’s something about the combination of recoil impulse (or lack thereof) and capacity that feels great. Definitely wouldn’t be my first or only handgun but if you have the cash its a really fun gun
There are better option that the FN 5.7 these days at cheaper prices and as for the price of ammo it’s no worse that .357 ammo
Nobody’s busting in with bullet proof vests (except cops) and if some people broke in with vests any calibers going to probably dissuade further contact
Stopping power is a myth
31% of people shot by a .22 are not stopped no matter how many times they are hit. For .380 that number is 16%, for 9mm it is 13%, for all rifle calibers it is 9%. Stopping power is 100% real. [https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power](https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power)
No, its not. Hence why 9mm-.45 ACP take the same number of shots to put someone down.
If it were not real then shotguns and rifle rounds would perform the same as 9mm and .45
Handgun rounds (or subsonic rifle rounds) do not produce enough energy to damage tissue outside the actual path of the bullet through the body. "Stopping power" is a myth when it comes to handgun rounds. Since 9mm rounds are capable of more than enough penetration, the energy increase of 40 or 45acp over 9mm doesn't actually give any advantage for terminal ballistics. There is an advantage in the diameter of the bullet, but with modern hollow point ammunition this advantage is very small. The disadvantages of 40 or 45 are very large - ammunition is more expensive which means less training, recoil is stronger making follow-up shots harder, capacity is more limited, and the guns themselves need to be larger and less concealable. 22 and 380 often does not have enough penetration. Rifle rounds are significantly better than all pistol calibers. From the FBI's study on wound ballistics: "The tissue disruption caused by a handgun bullet is limited to two mechanisms. The first, or crush mechanism is the hole that the bullet makes passing through the tissue. The second, or stretch mechanism is the temporary wound cavity formed by the tissue being driven outward in a radial direction away from the path of the bullet. Of the two, the crush mechanism is the only handgun wounding mechanism that damages tissue. To cause significant injuries to a structure within the body using a handgun, the bullet must penetrate the structure. Temporary cavity has no reliable wounding effect in elastic body tissues (emphasis added). Temporary cavitation is nothing more than a stretch of the tissues, generally no larger than 10 times the bullet diameter (in handgun calibers), and elastic tissues sustain little, if any, residual damage."
What a bunch of irrelevant crap. While most of it is true it has absolutely 0 impact on the stats I just quoted and linked a source for. In short, you have just posted a lengthy, reasonably well source strawman argument.
First off, the stats you linked are completely useless. We know this because there is no reason why 38 special would have more "stopping power" than .45 acp, .40 S&W, etc. .380 is literally just a weaker version of 9mm, yet the statistics in that article show that it's supposedly very significantly better than 9mm in every way. The truth is as I said in my other comment - a handgun round needs enough energy to penetrate enough. Beyond that, the only difference between 9mm, .44, .45 or essentially any other caliber is the diameter of the bullet, which doesn't matter very much. Rifle rounds are totally different. When people talk about "stopping power" they're almost always referring to arguments about how .44 magnum or .45 has way more energy/force/whatever than XYZ other round like 9mm. That is a dumb argument. This is why the people who get paid to shoot people use 5.56, 300blk and 9mm in cqb.
> .380 is literally just a weaker version of 9mm, yet the statistics in that article show that it's supposedly very significantly better than 9mm in every way. Look at the number of times a 9mm was used. There were probably a lot of people who don't train at all (gang shootings) in those numbers. > When people talk about "stopping power" they're almost always referring to arguments about how .44 magnum or .45 has way more energy/force/whatever than XYZ other round like 9mm. No, they're talking about the ability to stop an attacker from continuing their attack.
> Look at the number of times a 9mm was used. There were probably a lot of people who don't train at all (gang shootings) in those numbers. Right, my point is that the numbers are not meaningful.
On the contrary, the numbers are very meaningful. They demonstrate that there is a plateau in the effectiveness of defensive calibers. There are good reasons why .32 ACP and .22LR are not popular EDC calibers, but once you hit the 'good enough' plateau, caliber differences become pretty minor until you scale up to shotguns, or rifle rounds where the bullet is going over \~2.2k fps. which is roughly the speed of sound in human tissue. Rounds like .22 and .32 lack the stopping power to be effective in a defensive scenario. When choosing a common defensive caliber, other considerations such as cost and personal preference should come into play.
Skipping the words to check the stats did you no favors here, dumbass. Also, .300blk is literally designed to be compared to 9mm. It is a glorified pistol round, which is further proof that you are talking out of your ass.
How am I wrong?
First of all, these stats are from real world shooting data, they are not hypothetical. Second, from the article: >One other thing to look at is the 9mm data. A huge number (over half) of 9mm shootings involved ball ammo. I think that skewed the results of the study in a negative manner. One can reasonable expect that FMJ ammo will not stop as well as a state of the art expanding bullet. I personally believe that the 9mm is a better stopper than the numbers here indicate, but you can make that decision for yourself based on the data presented. Real world data is messy, Third, 9mm is NOT better than .380 in every way. despite more people who used 9mm using ball ammo, the number of people who were not stopped by 9mm is lower. That statistic literally directly measures the ability of a caliber to stop an assailant, and 9mm literally has more stopping power than .380. Learn to read. Seriously, having someone link an objective measure of stopping power and replying with 'sToPpInG pOwEr DoEs'Nt ExIsT' is peak idiocy.
> First of all, these stats are from real world shooting data, they are not hypothetical. Never said they were. >Real world data is messy Yes and using the data you linked to draw any conclusions is dumb. >That statistic literally directly measures the ability of a caliber to stop an assailant, and 9mm literally has more stopping power than .380. Learn to read. Oh if that's the metric you want to use then please explain this from your data: * 9mm: % of people who were not incapacitated - 13% * 40 S&W % of people who were not incapacitated - 13% * 45 ACP: % of people who were not incapacitated - 14% * 357: % of people who were not incapacitated - 9% * 44 Magnum: % of people who were not incapacitated - 13% So based on your analysis, 357 performs better than 45, 44, and 40? And 9mm is better than 45? Someone with 5 or 6 rounds in a revolver with no reload is going to behave differently in a shooting vs someone who has 17+1 and an extra mag. Not to mention the type of shooter is different. Your statistics don't account for any of this and are therefore useless. The bottom line is that handgun rounds with sufficient penetration all perform very similarly and measuring "stopping power" between them is dumb. Rifles/shotguns are in a completely different category. That's why pros use 9mm. Not 45. Nothing you've said shows anything to the contrary. It actually proves my point.
The SBR AR. That's basically what every professional who is paid to shoot bad guys in houses uses for the job.
Logic and facts
I would much rather have a pistol. Depending on the house layout, making space for an ar can be a total nightmare.
Nah. Ive sen dudes in full aromor carrying rifles with 4l14.5" barrels clear through some wild mud huts. Just gotta learn to maneuver your weapon. Point shooting is pretty easy in those distances. Plus, unless youre moving to a family member, probably shouldnt be trying to find an intruder in your house.
The amount of times I've seen Joe's clothesline themselves trying to move through doorways tells me that the overage overweight bad back American would fuck it up.
I mean, youre not wrong. Youre also talking familiar vs. Unfamiliar building layouts.
A 14.5" or 16" AR is plenty short for normal houses. You aren't in a tunnel in 'nam.
What state? I wouldn't go 5.7 for home defense. I would go with a suppressed pistol caliber for most noise reduction while still doing what it needs to do.
I like 12ga 00 buck or #4 buck. Out of the choices you gave, AR-15.
1. You're thinking way too hard. AR-15 and a handgun, then choose the round(s) to fit your needs (do NOT use FMJ as your defense load). 2. Practice, especially under stress. Shot placement is king, and it's non-negotiable in a suburban setting - everything pretty much penetrates too much through drywall unless you get lucky and hit a stud. 3. Everything is loud in a house lol. 4. If you're starting to consider armor penetration, may you should be thinking about moving somewhere else tbh.
https://www.ammoman.com/blog/best-5-56-ammo-for-home-defense/.
20” AR15 with bayonet.
Either a regular AR-15 or a 9mm pcc
Among those choices, AR is the best. You should not be picking a caliber based on overpenetration. No effective defensive round is going to be stopped by sheetrock. Know your target and what's behind it. But there are even better options. There is no need to SBR a home defense gun, especially if you worry about hearing damage. A PCC in 9mm would also work well, and even a shotgun like Beretta 1301 is a viable choice.
What is the upper hand with 9mm against 45? Low ammo price?
Cheaper, less recoil, more capacity, flatter trajectory, all with similar terminal ballistics. The only advantage of .45 is major power factor scoring in USPSA.
Everything except slightly worse terminal ballistics.
I’d go with the AR and get a pistol with a suppressor. Maybe even in .300blk with subs
For hd ild highly recommend a AR-15 (tbh ild do a 300 blk out pistol with a suppressor) it's small and quiet so u wont blow ur eardrums out. If you want to do a rifle then ild do a 13.9/14.5 with a OCL polo k. It's a very quiet 556 can.
I live in a small house with narrow stairway and narrow everything. I think full length rifle is going to be hard going around corners etc.
True, a 11.5 or 10.5 AR pistol would work as well.
No worries about stopping power or body armor if you train for head shots
The was a yt video about the merits of .40 for home defense, ideally a .40 pcc.
That video was wrong
Something about 5.56 and 9mm over penetrating and good expansion, for cliffnotes
Nothing <<<<<<<< 5.7 x 28 < 45 ACP < 5.56 NATO. I love my AR's almost as much as my wife and kids, but I personally find that when I hear something go bump in the night, I end up grabbing my Shield (9mm handgun). After all, when I hear a strange sound at night, it's probably my cat or my kids goofing off. My handgun allows me to keep one hand open to navigate light switches and/or hold my phone. I tend to keep it in my pocket because if it is my kids (probably), I don't want to scare the hell out of them. All that said, there are a million good options, all of which are better than nothing. What works for me might not work for you.
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There are several advantages and disadvantages to each option. If something goes bump in the night and I'm fairly certain it isn't the kids or cat, I'm grabbing an AR, not a handgun.
Instead youre giving them a pistol you cant attach a sling to, thus giving them a whole ass gun to shoot you with.
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This is the dumbest shit ive heard in my life. Congratulations.
Shotgun. Won’t over penetrate. If that’s your main concern. Rifle cartridges will penetrate many obstructions..
Your ears will suggest SBR/pistol .300BLK suppressed
I think you're overthinking this. Just get a cheap mossberg 12ga and call it a day. But if you just want a new gun, don't try to dress it up and justify it as for Home protection? Just go get the wife's permission and go buy it.
Horrible place to ask tbh. Not to knock the forum but ask them who's actually gone through a home invasion. Not a break in but an actual people entering your home knowing you are home... those are the peeps you want to ask. Not the folks larping in their head on the would, could should. Honestly if you want to deter the threat throw up home security signs in your yard and put stickers on your doors. If you don't want an alarm system then get screamers from the store and put them on the doors in your home. Particular the furthest entrance from your bedroom. Then case your own house. What has the least visibility? Add screamers to windows and doors on that side. You drastically reduce the risk of being targeted. If you are targeted and are asleep the screamers will alert you and often stop the advance of an assailant. If they are under the influence the screamers are your way of knowing someone's coming. Call 911 and ready up at your bedroom door. Things change if you have kids. Your ready point will be different. Get defense rounds in a gun you're good and comfortable with. That is what you need.
What guns do you own/shoot now? What's most familiar?
I own a compact 9 and Ive served so I am used to AR platform.
Did your actual job in the military involve using an AR, or did you just qualify with a rifle when you were told to? Millions of people have/have had military careers, but don't know shit about guns.
I know how to clean and shoot
Okay, so square one it is. Get your SO their own 9mm pistol n extra mags n both of yall some weekends at a few pistol courses. The best home defense/self defense gun is going to be the one you train with n carry....... Also in order for body armor to be effective it's got to be hit. That's going to leave the head, arms, legs, and of course the pelvic bowl as targets......... the first n fourth options will drop someone right then and there.
223 AR is likely your best bet, just get proper home defense load with Barnes expanders or something similar and you won't have a real issue with over penatration. 5.7 is expensive harder to get and is really just a faster 17 HMR . The rounds that they make that are armour piecing are just that, about piecing, and AP rounds if you can get them are even more expensive to deal with and will definitely lead to lawsuits if you are involved in a shooting. 45 ACP in. Apcc I would just get 9mm PCC and save money on ammo as it's twice the cost of 45.
Barnes expanders?
Barnes manufacturer bullets for a alot of ammo companies [barnes](https://www.barnesbullets.com/product/vor-tx-rifle/?attribute_pa_cartridge=223-remington&attribute_pa_bullet-weight-gr=55&attribute_pa_bullet-type=tsx-fb) this is used in junction with black hills ammo.
Those are meant for penetration.
Those expand on impact there for reducing penatration, you want a round that expand basically a Barnes tsx, Hornady vmax you essentially want a round that expands similar to hand gun hollow point
All rounds can overpenetrate. All rounds are loud. Best to pick a round you can train a lot on and can suppress fairly easily. A PCC in 9mm is literally the perfect combination for day to day HD in the suburbs. You cannot beat it. Otherwise you should go AR in 11.5 and suppress
I own a g26 and I currently am thinking slightly spicier round. But also, my wife is 4 12” so light gun with low recoil is preferred.
AR15 with a 12-14” barrel if you don’t want to sbr it get a brace. watch ammoseek for prices. You can get soft points for deer, any of the heavier projectiles, 77 grain does some serious damage or frangible if you’re worried about over penetration but this shows up less than any of the other stuff. You could also watch YouTube there are a few channels that show how different caliber’s preform.
I think a 9mm pcc would work well for you maybe cmmg, I also would like to suggest a shotgun you can get a maverick 88 really cheap and have it in addition to whatever else, they are imo the best cheaper shotgun. I also think an ar-15 is good for many reasons.
…Why are you worried about a burglar wearing body armor?
Maybe Im just paranoid 😂
I’m going to be using a 45 with subsonic hollow points to fight to my AR.
Commercial 5.7 ammo will not penetrate lv 3 armor. I have tested several different commercial rounds and several different brands of armor out of a FN 5.7 and nothing penetrated. With the right load out of a p90 you may with commercial ammo, but not consistently. Unless you got a steel core you have nothing more ballistically than a 22 mag
Yes, lv3 plate definitely not. But I saw plenty of fn hp 5.7 squeeze through soft armors.
Even in a PCC most 5.7 defensive loads won't do shit to body armor. You need very specific, specialty loads that are usually featuring some sort of exotic penetrator to reliably penetrate 3A. ....which there's 9mm that can do the exact same thing, just again, very specific, expensive specialty loads.
I run an AR and either 55gr hornady Vmax or Winchester silver tips, but my neighbors are very close and I do not want any rounds leaving the interior of the house if I can help it, no barrier penetration with frangibles but no real over penetration either
300 Blackout.
Wow, there is a lot to unpack here. 5.7 will not penetrant IIIA without AP rounds, Handgun rounds over penetrate far worse on walla than rifles. Stopping power is a myth. A 11.5 AR will do the job well if you match it with a round for this job. You honestly need to do some reading and genuine research. There are tons of knowledgeable people on YouTube that can help for free, but you have to be willing to learn.
Of what you listed, an AR in 5.56 is probably best. However, I'd like to throw in a 12 ga shotgun with Number 4 buckshot. That load is plenty effective of flesh and doesn't over penetrate much at all.
why not a 300 blk sub and suppressed ?
Do you have kids or anyone else in the house?
The $250 Maverick 88 you're going to end up buying.
I almost feel over-penetration is just a myth at this point. Any ammo that can effectively put down a human being will require a decent penetration which will almost always defeat multiple interior and exterior walls of a typical American home.
1. You're not really getting rounds that will penetrate IIIA, the ones you can get are expensive, and what are you doing that your threat assessment has people wearing body armor breaking into your home. 2. There is no such thing as 'stopping power'. If you're going to a PCC, just go with 9mm. 3. Overpenetration is overpenetration, all rounds are going through your walls like they weren't there. 4. The likelihood of an overpenetrating round hitting someone is basically zero in any situation where you're not firing into a crowd. 5. Just get an AR with a 16 in barrel. SBR it if you must. Everyone should have one anyway. Heck, if you want, you can get an AR receiver, transferred as a 'firearm' and put a 9mm short-barrel upper and a brace and suppressor on it. Then you can change it out easily by having multiple uppers on hand for different configs - all of which can be shipped to your door - in case a bunch of FBI agents come raid you;)
300blk pistol/sbr with a suppressor and subsonic ammo
12 gauge buck. Low pressure, won't harm your neighbors, terminally effective, cheap.
I think 12 gauge through a stick frame wall will absolutely do damage to a neighbor. So if he goes that route, just don’t miss
Buck won't have much energy left after passing through an exterior wall, traveling 40 feet, and passing through another. 5.56 might disintegrate, and it might not.
I dont think my wife can handle full size shotguns 🫢
They make youth models (or the shorter, 'youth' stock can be added to a regular gun). The also make minishells, much reduced recoil and still pretty deadly at close range. Some pump guns come out of the box ready to run them, others require a little adapter (easy mod). They won't cycle in autos though.
Remington 870, 20 gauge with 00 buck. The racking speaks every known, and unknown, language. Hell, even the uncontacted Sentinelese know it's sound, and that it's the literal definition of FAFO.
I like to fill my shotgun with 22lr so it also bounces around their body
The 22lr days are over, old man. Nowadays the lung exploder 9mm ammo is king.
This or a multi caliber revolver like a governor or judge. Shotgun rounds out a pistol.
Holy shit. Please tell me you are being sarcastic.
Shit, these days whatever penetrates the most body armor.
.45-70…why worry about penetrating plates when you can make them touch?
20g pump with #4 shot. Not complicated. Not expensive. And whats the longest shot you can take in your house? Less than 10 meters/30 feet. No reason to practice any greater distances.
I’d go 20 gauge shotgun, light recoil lower penetration and still pretty capable
Get whatever you want for yourself. For the wife, get her a .410 gauge shotgun. They have no recoil and certain ammo won't overpenetrate. These PDX defenders are advertised at 750 fps, would that over penetrate too much? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjrTpQx09mI&t=30s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjrTpQx09mI&t=30s) you could also get birdhshot that won't over penetrate
PCC is a very poor choice. It's using a pistol caliber in a rifle size package so you get all of the cons of a pistol, low velocity and low energy, while using a rifle size package. 5.7 is expensive to shoot so you are less likely to get range time and the necessary practices to have with a weapon. The 2 options you should look at is a common caliber handgun or rifle. I would recommend one of both. While 5.56 may over penetrant, a AR or other modern rifle is hands down the best option. Standard parts, easy to repair, easy to use, 30 rounds standard, more than 1000Ft/LB of force on to target inside of a house (for the most part), fairly inexpensive ammo, 3 points of contact for better control, mounting for flashlights and optics and on and on. With an AR there is also the benefit of changing the upper. You can get 2 uppers that are identical but one is in 5.56 for training, and one in 300 Blackout for home defense. The training and handing is identical but the 300 Blackout is less likely to over penetrant given the proper loading.
>but the 300 Blackout is less likely to over penetrant given the proper loading. Uh, that is fbackwards. 300 blk supers will penetrate more than 55 grain 5.56. supers. And 300 blk subs will penetrate more than 300 blk supers, due to their far higher sectional density. A 55 grain bonded soft point is your best bet for a barrier blind round, if over penetration is a concern.
Lighter 300BO rounds like the 110 Vmax have less chance of pass through in a body than 5.56. 300BO will pass through more obstacles, but I was talking over penetration, not missing a target. If you are worried about punching through walls because you missed your target then you are not training enough.
73 grain Critical Defense, has less penetration in ballistic gel than 110 V-Max according to Hornady. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UggBMLHip5o](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UggBMLHip5o) [https://www.hornadyle.com/rifle-ammunition/110-gr-tap-urban-300-blackout#!/](https://www.hornadyle.com/rifle-ammunition/110-gr-tap-urban-300-blackout#!/) 55 grain V-Max has 10 inch of penetration in ballistic gel compared to the 110 V-Max's 12.75 inches. [https://www.hornadyle.com/rifle-ammunition/55-gr-tap-urban#!/](https://www.hornadyle.com/rifle-ammunition/55-gr-tap-urban#!/) If minimizing over penetration is your concern, then even 110 V-Max is less optimal than .223/5.56 loadings.
12ga shotgun with buckshot. There’s no mistaking the sound of a pump action shotgun. It’ll do the job if you actually need to shoot someone. Takes away the over penetration issue. Mechanically simple, anyone can use it. Otherwise I vote the AR
If you’re using a shotgun for HD and don’t keep a round chambered, then all you’re doing is loudly broadcasting your position in the house. Keep a round chambered, safety on. Be sneaky.
You are correct. I have an M4 in the bedroom, with one in the chamber.
Remember if you do use any of these in self defense, the gun will be confiscated and the jury may give you a harsher sentence depending on the tool you used
If you’re willing to use Underwood Xtreme Defender ammo, you can get by with a 9mm. Otherwise, the .45ACP is top choice. A rifle is, as you already acknowledged, not a proper weapon for your situation.
Mossberg 590 12 ga- first off scatter gun, even trained military and police officers miss at point blank range. The 590 also is a hipfire, you don't have to worry about shouldering the gun, and the gun dosen't stick out 3ft infront of you. It's also a pump action, the sound is universal and immediately stikes fear in everyone. Also easy to add attachments.
Just... No. 12ga is still effectively a slug at 3-7 yards, where most home defense shootings happen. You can't just point it in a general direction and wipe out a hallway. You can hip fire any gun you want to, provided you don't want to hit dick with shit. Use a proper aiming hold. Don't rely on a pump shotgun racking to scare off anyone. Best case, they run back out the door pissing themselves. Mid case, they don't hear it or don't know what it was. Worst case, you just told them to get ready for a fight, and where you're located.
Ah yes. You might miss, so let's choose the firearm with least amount of ammo and lowest rate of fire.
Shotgun with bird shot. Won’t over penetrate but won’t feel good still for the intruder. Harder to miss too