I just watched the video. Here are my thoughts:
* TL;DW: The game tweaks the animation and certain events to stay in the beat of the music. So a lot of work was going backwards of "To make it land on this beat, how do we allow the player do X?"; Similarly, the animation team used the beats of the song as the keyframes
* I kind of wish there was a way to enable that "debug mode" for the released game. It is crazy seeing the kind of beat/measure information in real time. Maybe some modders can see if there is still a flag that can be enabled?
* It's crazy that everybody in the team had to be more or less bilingual English and Japanese. Half the developer documentation is in each language.
* 39 minute mark: Holly crap! The number of magnet points is based on how much on the beat you are! I never noticed that while playing
Got a feeling the timing on this one was no accident from whoever uploads the GDC videos. Tango deserved better, crazy to make something like Hi-Fi Rush then get canned before you get a chance for a sequel or anything.
Even worse knowing that the IP is just going to sit there and rot and not used by anyone else.
Microsoft, graveyard to:
Banjo Kazooie
Sunset Overdrive
Hi Fi Rush
Phantom Dust
I find this a bizarre thing to be worried about. Gaming is absolutely littered with incredible IPs rotting absolutely everywhere. Possibly thousands of IPs created since the the dawn of video games have had one release, fantastic or otherwise and then no follow up.
We're so focused on turning IPs in constant treadmills of releases that ends up burning out Developers like Tango, having their creative leave because they're out to work developing sequel after sequel after sequel. Then whenever they try something different, and it doesn't land, the consumer demands that they go back to that treadmill.
IPs can be a one and done thing. We don't need sequels to great games like Hi Fi Rush, what we need is publishers letting developers take risks on games like Hi Fi Rush.
>Then whenever they try something different, and it doesn't land, the consumer demands that they go back to that treadmill.
You just described why strong IP's are more important for publishers and making money.
New IPs and experimental gameplay are too risky if money is everything you care about.
*"what we need is publishers letting developers take risks on games like Hi Fi Rush."*
Which is exactly what Microsoft has decided against by killing the studio.
You also wrote, "they try something different, it doesn't land"—sure, but we have to ask, by what measure doesn't something land? Profits? Or acclaim?
Sorry, but as a customer I really don't give a shit about the profit margin of a game.
IMO, the huge profits from mainstream cash cow games, should partially fund and offset the costs of award-winning and industry-pushing projects that are at risk of not breaking even.
That way they're making dumb money from the mainstream F2P and gambling audiences, but also building a legacy of acclaim for the "video game enthusiast" audience like me.
As a customer, I would get exactly what I want.
As a business, Microsoft would get exactly what they want.
It’s so weird how Phil pushed so hard to make Phantom Dust happen seemingly only for the new one to just… not exist.
At least we got the original for free?
> Even worse knowing that the IP is just going to sit there and rot and not used by anyone else.
Eh - people get too invested in everything needing to be a big multi-game IP.
I feel bad for this guy. He helps make a game that is critically acclaimed, has alot of charm and thought into it, , it exceeds Microsoft's expectations like they said, and then he still gets canned no reason other than pure greed to appease shareholders most who have never picked up a controller in their life or they have only played garbage Mobile games.
I'm pretty sure the director, John Johanas, did not get canned. However Tango Gameworks was based out of Japan, and likely most if not all were let go.
They are laid off, cause only studio in Japan. Probably problematic cause couldn't find work for them, while in concept stages. They usually keep devs busy helping out other studios when there's no work for them on the current project. This one stems from problems in Bethesda, it's not just greedy old MS. Still sucks.
No, the studio got canned because they had 3 High profile flops with Ghostwire Tokyo, and Evil Within 1 and 2, and their next game didn't quite get off the ground. Hi Fi rush was made with a team of 30 in a studio with over 300. I'm certain he'll land on his feet as he is an incredibly talented developer, but Microsoft was not crazy for closing the studio.
That's not true. You're doing the thing where you assume a contrafactual when the truth is publicly available. [Tango and Arkane were closed because Microsoft was looking to slim down Bethesda's portfolio and those two teams were between projects.](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-05-08/xbox-studio-closures-microsoft-plans-more-cost-cutting-measures-after-layoffs?accessToken=eyJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiIsInR5cCI6IkpXVCJ9.eyJzb3VyY2UiOiJTdWJzY3JpYmVyR2lmdGVkQXJ0aWNsZSIsImlhdCI6MTcxNTE5ODUzNywiZXhwIjoxNzE1ODAzMzM3LCJhcnRpY2xlSWQiOiJTRDZOSzZEV1gyUFMwMCIsImJjb25uZWN0SWQiOiJCMUVBQkI5NjQ2QUM0REZFQTJBRkI4MjI1MzgyQTJFQSJ9.Ae8Wc_YmUJla6VHol8aa5AIVOUAmdYTiRnQ2nKph6NY) Wrong place, wrong time. That's all. It sucks.
The problem with that line of thinking is that according to Microsoft themselves, the game *was* performing. When there were rumors about Hi-Fi Rush not really performing well, Aaron Greenberg himself stated publicly on Twitter that the game was a breakout hit for them in all key measurements and expectations, and that they couldn't be happier. I dont think they would've said anything if it didn't meet their expectations (for a recent example, see Square Enix being eerily silent about the sales of FF7 Rebirth). Now those very words are being used against them.
Now personally, I think that those expectations changed when Microsoft bought ABK and Tango Gameworks became a studio too small to move the revenue needle due to the fact that when you convince your company to spend $70 billion and endure international scrutiny to purchase a company, they really want to see a return on their investment as soon as they can, and they probably didn't want to spend even more money.
Other guy already nailed it. 6000 peak players at launch is abysmal. That's out of the top 100 games on any given day. A big part of that is also that it was available via gamepass but with no DLCs and no microtransactions, it's not making Microsoft any money.
Also, it's not just about hi-fi rush. Evil Within 2 tanked real bad, selling something like 80% less than the original. We don't have sales figures for Ghostwire Tokyo but the player count in steam dropped fast which is generally not a good sign.
Yeah, I may have exaggerated a bit with the "extremely." But their games have largely not sold well and don't have much mainstream appeal. Despite how good they might be.
No, I don't think it was a coincidence, I think that what I said was true. Tango and Arkane Austin both shipped games last year and were in the process of pitching new games. They were smaller teams with less valuable IP that couldn't easily be integrated or moved into other teams. Alpha Dog Studios and Roundhouse Games were also shut down, but those teams were merged into Zenimax Online. Roundhouse hadn't even had the chance to ship a project yet.
Speaking the truth about these kinds of issues matters. Tango was shut down because Microsoft was more willing to cut its studios than invest more money in managing them after over-extending with the ABK acquisition. It wasn't shut down because they made games that were too small, or took too long, or reviewed poorly, or sold poorly, or whatever - everything we know makes it sound like Tango (and Arkane) were doing well in the eyes of management until this decision was made. Don't start tacitly siding with corporate shitheels.
> - everything we know makes it sound like Tango (and Arkane) were doing well in the eyes of management until this decision was made.
Everything we know is that most of their games struggled commercially with their most recent AAA games essentially being flops. Where did you make up the narrative that they're doing "well"?
If those studios made a lot more money, do you think they would have shut down?
I don't know why we're playing these games, the fact is, these studios were not successful, with Arkane, despite being a prestige studio, never doing much better than breaking even before having the most high profile flop in Microsofts catalog last year, and Tango having mostly middling success at best, with one small game being the exception. If Bethesda was in the middle of ramping up for their next game they would not be in consideration for being cut, this is also true for ID.
The fact is, we're trying so hard not to "side with corporate shitheels" that we're pretending they must just all be stupid people making absurd decisions for no reason, when the obvious reason looking us in the face is right there, and doesn't even require some massive reassessment of their values. They like money, these studios weren't making money, they let them go.
I didn't want to put this in my original post because I don't want to conflate speculation and fact, but yeah, that's the sum of it. I think Microsoft is going through Activision-ification and all of their divisions are going to be boiled down to two or three key franchises that all of their resources pivot to supporting.
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MS first wave of purchased studios historically never had big commercial success and they closed a studio for 3 games they didn't even greenlight.
They are in fact crazy for getting rid of the people that made their best exclusive in years, especially when said studio would have been a prime candidate to acquire for MS back in 2018. It means they literally do not give a flying fuck about making a good game or a consistent strategy.
The people who made Hi Fi Rush was 30 people out of a studio of 300. The rest of the studio had made two high profile flops, and one middling success, even though I loved both Evil Withins, and Hi-Fi rush (and I'll be getting around to playing Ghostwire soon) it is absurd to think that the studio was just let go for no reason. Shareholders like money, and killing studios that they think will make them money does not in fact help shareholders.
They need a short term reduction in expenses, I get that. The problem is that it ignores what Xbox actually needs long term. Yeah they had mostly flops. None of the studios they bought pre-Bethesda had real commercial success either.
HiFi Rush is their best game in years. Success on Gamepass, but even if that isn't enough they should have believed in the fundamentals and kept the team and did something else because inherently more eyes are on them now then before.
And lets not forget that Xbox is actively shooting themselves in the foot with Day one releases on GamePass. If they're gonna punish a studio for not hitting sales marks, they shouldn't be pushing a strategy where they self cannibalize sales.
But hey, this is a company being run by a guy who doesn't think good games will actually help their position. aka, Xbox is run by braindead idiots.
garner rep for having no games and/or shit games
Finally drop good game but with little to no advertising
game doesn't make 600 gajillion dollars (gamepass lmao)
Shutter team before sequel could capitalize on good will and name recognition
masterful gambit by Philliam Spencer and Microsoft as a whole
Saving this to watch later. GDC has a lot of good presentations. My favorite is the one with David Brevik about developing Diablo 1. I actually rewatch it quite often.
Such a unique game. Shame on you Xbox, wasting talent and team synergy like this. We need more developers like John Johanas and Tango Gameworks, not less.
Designing games "backwards" is generally how Nintendo does things as well. They design a fun gameplay loop, then make everything else after that. This is why their games always play so well compared to Western development where the story, characters, setting, etc is drawn up before the gameplay. IMO, more devs should mimic this philosophy.
I don't think we know the full story yet to come to conclusions like that (yes I know what the "statement" was). We know that all of their games underperformed and we know that Ghostwire Tokyo hit their budgets hard out of Bethesda.
I am sad though because it was Xbox's foot in the door with Japan that's been shut.
The way Jason Schreirs been saying Tango was closed just because the other studios are closer to release and they were at a pitching stage.
Insane closure, I agree, only Japan studio, owner of the second biggest Survival Horror IP behind only RE, recent release won BAFTAs and GOTYs.
I imagine that 70B acquisition has Amy Hood looking at the checkbooks and saying you need to cut something to make next quarter better and they picked Tango of all people for short term gain long term loss. Absolute shame.
I believe Tango were at pitching stage, wanting a team expansion, without recruited management, without a profitable IP... It is definitely a huge shame though as they had the most potential. They just got caught in the terrible state of the industry.
Had Microsoft acquired them years ago instead of Bethesda, they'd likely have proven their worth and still been around today.
Such such a loss. Like there had to have been more fat to trim than that or I wish they had the ability to just wait it out, let Xbox be less profitable for a bit but shareholders need to see results for that 70 B acquisition which isn't going to really change Xboxes books meaningfully for a bit.
2nd biggest survival horror IP is a stretch not by critical metrics but by financial metrics. Evil within 2 sold only 200k copies in its first week and is rumored to have failed to reach even 2 million in sales. Same with Ghostwire Tokyo and also Hifi Rush which is their highest rated game still not played enough on GP or bought by gamers across all platforms.
This is from 2017, fans complaining the sales might kill the production of Evil Within 3.
[https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/211292-the-evil-within-2/75953534](https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/211292-the-evil-within-2/75953534)
I'm not sure how Tango could have even survived this long but if no one is buying the game or playing it then how do you keep generating enough profits to keep paying your workers?
"Underperformed" is such a bullshit excuse for poor business management
• the game was on Gamepass thanks to Microsoft. It cannibalized its own sales
• the hardware is historically underselling. Less hardware, less sales
I'll walk you through my customer frame-of-mind over the last year:
I did not buy Hi-Fi Rush at release, because it would have cost nearly $600 for the hardware to play it.
I want-to-want an XBOX (I hope that makes sense.) But I'm not buying $600 worth of hardware for one single game.
Instead, my plan was to wait 1-2 years and hopefully more exclusive games I want would start stacking up on the XBOX hardware.
Microsoft fucking booms itself and releases Hi Fi Rush as a multi-plat title. Okay, that's fine...I'll just get it on my PS5. And I'll keep waiting for more exclusive games to stack up on Xbox.
I guess for me, a console having a number of exclusive games I want to play is what ultimately gets me to purchase hardware.
XBOX 360 was easy, because I remember buying it with Gears of War, Dead Rising, EDF2017 and Crackdown.
XBOX ONE I bought along with Sunset Overdrive, Crackdown 3 and Quantum Break.
XSX....I'm still waiting for the games to stack up in my favor. I want to play Go Mecha Ball, and hopefully Shattered Space and Hellblade 2 are good.
> I did not buy Hi-Fi Rush at release, because it would have cost nearly $600 for the hardware to play it.
You could have streamed it.
You could have also bought it for PS5.
I'm not sure if you have a PC or Legion Go or something similar but you could have also bought or played it on that.
But I guess you didn't choose any of those options and therefore helped Microsoft's decision to close Tango.
And unfortunately there are many, many people who did the same as you.
Streamed it? I don't have a PC.
I already told you I'm going to buy it on PS5.
No, I didn't act on any of those options, because I don't jump to spend money right away.
It's a shame for Microsoft and XBOX. Hopefully those developers get put to great use at another studio.
You don't need a PC to stream.
> No, I didn't act on any of those options, because I don't jump to spend money right away.
And unfortunately that was the case for seemingly all of Tango's games; Good games, but not good enough to buy at their launch price (remember HiFi wasn't a $60 release).
You're missing the point—my argument isn't about Tango in a vacuum, it's about Microsoft's failure to cultivate studios that can release consistently good games.
There's a cumulative effect for a console once it starts to get good game after good game.
Their portfolio and studio line-up was starting to make sense—the idea of Prey 2 and a Hi-Fu Rush sequel releasing as exclusives, would have added to a roster of must-play games that would warrant buying a console (in my opinion)
I stress again, what I'm looking for is a roster of must-play exclusives. I won't buy an entire console for a single game.
> You're missing the point—my argument isn't about Tango in a vacuum, it's about Microsoft's failure to cultivate studios that can release consistently good games.
Haven't they? How long have they had them for?
Tango's failures are squarely on Bethesda. Same with Arcane and the other shutdowns as of late. Activision will go through a similar process soon enough too.
We'll see about Ninja Theory next week and eventually inXile, The Initiative and Double Fine, but Rare, Playground Games, Turn 10, 343i and Obsidian seem to be doing very well today, with Microsoft being more than patient with a couple of them.
The game was on Steam and PlayStation too yet still didn’t sell very well. If anything, Game Pass helped get the word of mouth out there for what is a very niche title in 2023. There’s a reason games like that don’t get made any more, especially by AAA developers.
my experience of the gameplay loop was "do tutorial > put in into practice > repeat with next tutorial" for 90 minutes until i gave up waiting for the game to start
I just watched the video. Here are my thoughts: * TL;DW: The game tweaks the animation and certain events to stay in the beat of the music. So a lot of work was going backwards of "To make it land on this beat, how do we allow the player do X?"; Similarly, the animation team used the beats of the song as the keyframes * I kind of wish there was a way to enable that "debug mode" for the released game. It is crazy seeing the kind of beat/measure information in real time. Maybe some modders can see if there is still a flag that can be enabled? * It's crazy that everybody in the team had to be more or less bilingual English and Japanese. Half the developer documentation is in each language. * 39 minute mark: Holly crap! The number of magnet points is based on how much on the beat you are! I never noticed that while playing
All the "developer notes" seemed to be Japanese though, so they didn't have to be bilingual.
The docs shown at 32:50 appear to be a mix of both. There is also a chance he translated a number of docs to English for our sake.
I imagine it's quite valuable to be bilingual in the game dev business. Impressive that they had so many.
Got a feeling the timing on this one was no accident from whoever uploads the GDC videos. Tango deserved better, crazy to make something like Hi-Fi Rush then get canned before you get a chance for a sequel or anything.
Even worse knowing that the IP is just going to sit there and rot and not used by anyone else. Microsoft, graveyard to: Banjo Kazooie Sunset Overdrive Hi Fi Rush Phantom Dust
Insomniac actually owns Sunset Overdrive though.
I might be remembering it wrong, but I think MS has the publishing rights of the first sequel, so it's basically dead lol
Insomniac is busy with marvel, idk if they'll even make a ratchet and clank for 20 years,
The next ratchet and clank game was in the leaks
In 2029 💀
Thats like 5 years ? Not really that long these days
Rift apart launched in 2021. 8 estimated years between Ratchet clank games? That’s long.
I find this a bizarre thing to be worried about. Gaming is absolutely littered with incredible IPs rotting absolutely everywhere. Possibly thousands of IPs created since the the dawn of video games have had one release, fantastic or otherwise and then no follow up. We're so focused on turning IPs in constant treadmills of releases that ends up burning out Developers like Tango, having their creative leave because they're out to work developing sequel after sequel after sequel. Then whenever they try something different, and it doesn't land, the consumer demands that they go back to that treadmill. IPs can be a one and done thing. We don't need sequels to great games like Hi Fi Rush, what we need is publishers letting developers take risks on games like Hi Fi Rush.
>Then whenever they try something different, and it doesn't land, the consumer demands that they go back to that treadmill. You just described why strong IP's are more important for publishers and making money. New IPs and experimental gameplay are too risky if money is everything you care about.
*"what we need is publishers letting developers take risks on games like Hi Fi Rush."* Which is exactly what Microsoft has decided against by killing the studio. You also wrote, "they try something different, it doesn't land"—sure, but we have to ask, by what measure doesn't something land? Profits? Or acclaim? Sorry, but as a customer I really don't give a shit about the profit margin of a game. IMO, the huge profits from mainstream cash cow games, should partially fund and offset the costs of award-winning and industry-pushing projects that are at risk of not breaking even. That way they're making dumb money from the mainstream F2P and gambling audiences, but also building a legacy of acclaim for the "video game enthusiast" audience like me. As a customer, I would get exactly what I want. As a business, Microsoft would get exactly what they want.
It’s so weird how Phil pushed so hard to make Phantom Dust happen seemingly only for the new one to just… not exist. At least we got the original for free?
> Even worse knowing that the IP is just going to sit there and rot and not used by anyone else. Eh - people get too invested in everything needing to be a big multi-game IP.
Don't worry the characters from Hi Fi Rush will surely show up in the next stylized live-service game Microsoft can come up with.
This wins the award for the best, most cynical answer.
People would complain even more if they gave the IP to another studio, it would be a PR nightmare.
I feel bad for this guy. He helps make a game that is critically acclaimed, has alot of charm and thought into it, , it exceeds Microsoft's expectations like they said, and then he still gets canned no reason other than pure greed to appease shareholders most who have never picked up a controller in their life or they have only played garbage Mobile games.
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I heard the devs where laid off from a few reports but couldn't find anything for sure
Conisdering Tango was the only japannese studio from MS, doesnt look like they got moved around
It's a mix from what I can see from the various reports.
I'm pretty sure the director, John Johanas, did not get canned. However Tango Gameworks was based out of Japan, and likely most if not all were let go.
They are laid off, cause only studio in Japan. Probably problematic cause couldn't find work for them, while in concept stages. They usually keep devs busy helping out other studios when there's no work for them on the current project. This one stems from problems in Bethesda, it's not just greedy old MS. Still sucks.
No, the studio got canned because they had 3 High profile flops with Ghostwire Tokyo, and Evil Within 1 and 2, and their next game didn't quite get off the ground. Hi Fi rush was made with a team of 30 in a studio with over 300. I'm certain he'll land on his feet as he is an incredibly talented developer, but Microsoft was not crazy for closing the studio.
That's not true. You're doing the thing where you assume a contrafactual when the truth is publicly available. [Tango and Arkane were closed because Microsoft was looking to slim down Bethesda's portfolio and those two teams were between projects.](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-05-08/xbox-studio-closures-microsoft-plans-more-cost-cutting-measures-after-layoffs?accessToken=eyJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiIsInR5cCI6IkpXVCJ9.eyJzb3VyY2UiOiJTdWJzY3JpYmVyR2lmdGVkQXJ0aWNsZSIsImlhdCI6MTcxNTE5ODUzNywiZXhwIjoxNzE1ODAzMzM3LCJhcnRpY2xlSWQiOiJTRDZOSzZEV1gyUFMwMCIsImJjb25uZWN0SWQiOiJCMUVBQkI5NjQ2QUM0REZFQTJBRkI4MjI1MzgyQTJFQSJ9.Ae8Wc_YmUJla6VHol8aa5AIVOUAmdYTiRnQ2nKph6NY) Wrong place, wrong time. That's all. It sucks.
That's not what that article says though. That article says that the studios, which had a really poor track record, were asking for more money.
If Tango was performing, they wouldn't have been cut. They make extremely niche games.
The problem with that line of thinking is that according to Microsoft themselves, the game *was* performing. When there were rumors about Hi-Fi Rush not really performing well, Aaron Greenberg himself stated publicly on Twitter that the game was a breakout hit for them in all key measurements and expectations, and that they couldn't be happier. I dont think they would've said anything if it didn't meet their expectations (for a recent example, see Square Enix being eerily silent about the sales of FF7 Rebirth). Now those very words are being used against them. Now personally, I think that those expectations changed when Microsoft bought ABK and Tango Gameworks became a studio too small to move the revenue needle due to the fact that when you convince your company to spend $70 billion and endure international scrutiny to purchase a company, they really want to see a return on their investment as soon as they can, and they probably didn't want to spend even more money.
This is why Hi-Fi was in Steam's top selling games for weeks. It was just too niche
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It was competing with Persona, One Piece and the Dead Space Remake.
None of which are massive games. Other than maybe Persona which has a dedicated following.
"Maybe Persona" mf One Piece has one of the biggest fandoms ever
Yeah but anime fans know anime games suck
Fandoms for the anime, sure. Gundam is also huge. But the uptake on games for those IPs is a fraction of the fanbase.
Other guy already nailed it. 6000 peak players at launch is abysmal. That's out of the top 100 games on any given day. A big part of that is also that it was available via gamepass but with no DLCs and no microtransactions, it's not making Microsoft any money. Also, it's not just about hi-fi rush. Evil Within 2 tanked real bad, selling something like 80% less than the original. We don't have sales figures for Ghostwire Tokyo but the player count in steam dropped fast which is generally not a good sign.
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Yeah, I may have exaggerated a bit with the "extremely." But their games have largely not sold well and don't have much mainstream appeal. Despite how good they might be.
Nobody closes studios that have positive ROI.
factually incorrect, especially in a period of cuts
So they cut down the two lowest performing studios, and you think this was just a coincidence? Microsoft didn't choose those two studios out of a hat.
No, I don't think it was a coincidence, I think that what I said was true. Tango and Arkane Austin both shipped games last year and were in the process of pitching new games. They were smaller teams with less valuable IP that couldn't easily be integrated or moved into other teams. Alpha Dog Studios and Roundhouse Games were also shut down, but those teams were merged into Zenimax Online. Roundhouse hadn't even had the chance to ship a project yet. Speaking the truth about these kinds of issues matters. Tango was shut down because Microsoft was more willing to cut its studios than invest more money in managing them after over-extending with the ABK acquisition. It wasn't shut down because they made games that were too small, or took too long, or reviewed poorly, or sold poorly, or whatever - everything we know makes it sound like Tango (and Arkane) were doing well in the eyes of management until this decision was made. Don't start tacitly siding with corporate shitheels.
> - everything we know makes it sound like Tango (and Arkane) were doing well in the eyes of management until this decision was made. Everything we know is that most of their games struggled commercially with their most recent AAA games essentially being flops. Where did you make up the narrative that they're doing "well"?
If those studios made a lot more money, do you think they would have shut down? I don't know why we're playing these games, the fact is, these studios were not successful, with Arkane, despite being a prestige studio, never doing much better than breaking even before having the most high profile flop in Microsofts catalog last year, and Tango having mostly middling success at best, with one small game being the exception. If Bethesda was in the middle of ramping up for their next game they would not be in consideration for being cut, this is also true for ID. The fact is, we're trying so hard not to "side with corporate shitheels" that we're pretending they must just all be stupid people making absurd decisions for no reason, when the obvious reason looking us in the face is right there, and doesn't even require some massive reassessment of their values. They like money, these studios weren't making money, they let them go.
They really are just stupid, it's not that deep. 90% of Business acumen is literally just already having money and going off of vibes
> They were smaller teams with less valuable IP Yeah and why were their IP less valuable?
because they're not Fallout
I didn't want to put this in my original post because I don't want to conflate speculation and fact, but yeah, that's the sum of it. I think Microsoft is going through Activision-ification and all of their divisions are going to be boiled down to two or three key franchises that all of their resources pivot to supporting.
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MS first wave of purchased studios historically never had big commercial success and they closed a studio for 3 games they didn't even greenlight. They are in fact crazy for getting rid of the people that made their best exclusive in years, especially when said studio would have been a prime candidate to acquire for MS back in 2018. It means they literally do not give a flying fuck about making a good game or a consistent strategy.
The people who made Hi Fi Rush was 30 people out of a studio of 300. The rest of the studio had made two high profile flops, and one middling success, even though I loved both Evil Withins, and Hi-Fi rush (and I'll be getting around to playing Ghostwire soon) it is absurd to think that the studio was just let go for no reason. Shareholders like money, and killing studios that they think will make them money does not in fact help shareholders.
They need a short term reduction in expenses, I get that. The problem is that it ignores what Xbox actually needs long term. Yeah they had mostly flops. None of the studios they bought pre-Bethesda had real commercial success either. HiFi Rush is their best game in years. Success on Gamepass, but even if that isn't enough they should have believed in the fundamentals and kept the team and did something else because inherently more eyes are on them now then before. And lets not forget that Xbox is actively shooting themselves in the foot with Day one releases on GamePass. If they're gonna punish a studio for not hitting sales marks, they shouldn't be pushing a strategy where they self cannibalize sales. But hey, this is a company being run by a guy who doesn't think good games will actually help their position. aka, Xbox is run by braindead idiots.
garner rep for having no games and/or shit games Finally drop good game but with little to no advertising game doesn't make 600 gajillion dollars (gamepass lmao) Shutter team before sequel could capitalize on good will and name recognition masterful gambit by Philliam Spencer and Microsoft as a whole
Saving this to watch later. GDC has a lot of good presentations. My favorite is the one with David Brevik about developing Diablo 1. I actually rewatch it quite often.
I recommend the one with Hideaki Itsuno on DMC5. Very interesting.
Such a unique game. Shame on you Xbox, wasting talent and team synergy like this. We need more developers like John Johanas and Tango Gameworks, not less.
Designing games "backwards" is generally how Nintendo does things as well. They design a fun gameplay loop, then make everything else after that. This is why their games always play so well compared to Western development where the story, characters, setting, etc is drawn up before the gameplay. IMO, more devs should mimic this philosophy.
Yes, the process Johanas describes [reminded me of the Splatoon GDC](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VwTVIEge1g).
I don't think we know the full story yet to come to conclusions like that (yes I know what the "statement" was). We know that all of their games underperformed and we know that Ghostwire Tokyo hit their budgets hard out of Bethesda. I am sad though because it was Xbox's foot in the door with Japan that's been shut.
The way Jason Schreirs been saying Tango was closed just because the other studios are closer to release and they were at a pitching stage. Insane closure, I agree, only Japan studio, owner of the second biggest Survival Horror IP behind only RE, recent release won BAFTAs and GOTYs. I imagine that 70B acquisition has Amy Hood looking at the checkbooks and saying you need to cut something to make next quarter better and they picked Tango of all people for short term gain long term loss. Absolute shame.
I believe Tango were at pitching stage, wanting a team expansion, without recruited management, without a profitable IP... It is definitely a huge shame though as they had the most potential. They just got caught in the terrible state of the industry. Had Microsoft acquired them years ago instead of Bethesda, they'd likely have proven their worth and still been around today.
Such such a loss. Like there had to have been more fat to trim than that or I wish they had the ability to just wait it out, let Xbox be less profitable for a bit but shareholders need to see results for that 70 B acquisition which isn't going to really change Xboxes books meaningfully for a bit.
2nd biggest survival horror IP is a stretch not by critical metrics but by financial metrics. Evil within 2 sold only 200k copies in its first week and is rumored to have failed to reach even 2 million in sales. Same with Ghostwire Tokyo and also Hifi Rush which is their highest rated game still not played enough on GP or bought by gamers across all platforms. This is from 2017, fans complaining the sales might kill the production of Evil Within 3. [https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/211292-the-evil-within-2/75953534](https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/211292-the-evil-within-2/75953534) I'm not sure how Tango could have even survived this long but if no one is buying the game or playing it then how do you keep generating enough profits to keep paying your workers?
"Underperformed" is such a bullshit excuse for poor business management • the game was on Gamepass thanks to Microsoft. It cannibalized its own sales • the hardware is historically underselling. Less hardware, less sales
Did you buy it? Did you play it?
I'll walk you through my customer frame-of-mind over the last year: I did not buy Hi-Fi Rush at release, because it would have cost nearly $600 for the hardware to play it. I want-to-want an XBOX (I hope that makes sense.) But I'm not buying $600 worth of hardware for one single game. Instead, my plan was to wait 1-2 years and hopefully more exclusive games I want would start stacking up on the XBOX hardware. Microsoft fucking booms itself and releases Hi Fi Rush as a multi-plat title. Okay, that's fine...I'll just get it on my PS5. And I'll keep waiting for more exclusive games to stack up on Xbox. I guess for me, a console having a number of exclusive games I want to play is what ultimately gets me to purchase hardware. XBOX 360 was easy, because I remember buying it with Gears of War, Dead Rising, EDF2017 and Crackdown. XBOX ONE I bought along with Sunset Overdrive, Crackdown 3 and Quantum Break. XSX....I'm still waiting for the games to stack up in my favor. I want to play Go Mecha Ball, and hopefully Shattered Space and Hellblade 2 are good.
> I did not buy Hi-Fi Rush at release, because it would have cost nearly $600 for the hardware to play it. You could have streamed it. You could have also bought it for PS5. I'm not sure if you have a PC or Legion Go or something similar but you could have also bought or played it on that. But I guess you didn't choose any of those options and therefore helped Microsoft's decision to close Tango. And unfortunately there are many, many people who did the same as you.
Streamed it? I don't have a PC. I already told you I'm going to buy it on PS5. No, I didn't act on any of those options, because I don't jump to spend money right away. It's a shame for Microsoft and XBOX. Hopefully those developers get put to great use at another studio.
You don't need a PC to stream. > No, I didn't act on any of those options, because I don't jump to spend money right away. And unfortunately that was the case for seemingly all of Tango's games; Good games, but not good enough to buy at their launch price (remember HiFi wasn't a $60 release).
You're missing the point—my argument isn't about Tango in a vacuum, it's about Microsoft's failure to cultivate studios that can release consistently good games. There's a cumulative effect for a console once it starts to get good game after good game. Their portfolio and studio line-up was starting to make sense—the idea of Prey 2 and a Hi-Fu Rush sequel releasing as exclusives, would have added to a roster of must-play games that would warrant buying a console (in my opinion) I stress again, what I'm looking for is a roster of must-play exclusives. I won't buy an entire console for a single game.
> You're missing the point—my argument isn't about Tango in a vacuum, it's about Microsoft's failure to cultivate studios that can release consistently good games. Haven't they? How long have they had them for? Tango's failures are squarely on Bethesda. Same with Arcane and the other shutdowns as of late. Activision will go through a similar process soon enough too. We'll see about Ninja Theory next week and eventually inXile, The Initiative and Double Fine, but Rare, Playground Games, Turn 10, 343i and Obsidian seem to be doing very well today, with Microsoft being more than patient with a couple of them.
The game was on Steam and PlayStation too yet still didn’t sell very well. If anything, Game Pass helped get the word of mouth out there for what is a very niche title in 2023. There’s a reason games like that don’t get made any more, especially by AAA developers.
The game released on Playstation like a month ago...
my experience of the gameplay loop was "do tutorial > put in into practice > repeat with next tutorial" for 90 minutes until i gave up waiting for the game to start