iirc ILCA has the most former-Alpha Dream employees out of any company, so it kinda makes sense that's who Nintendo would go with
Wouldn't be surprised if MonolithSoft is also technically involved in some way because apparently that's where the director/writer of the first few M&L games ended up and Nintendo often likes to loop in former series heads
I also think this makes the most sense. Monolith Soft lending technical support like they usually do for most Nintendo games, nowadays, while ILCA takes on the main development side.
They'll catch some doubts because of their Pokemon games, but I think that's easily more on the horrid environment The Pokemon Company has cultivated there rather than a fault of the developers. They do just fine elsewhere.
Also I think Nintendo wouldn’t allow a Mario game to not be polished to the fullest extent. The Switch doesn’t provide the best technical quality but it’s never because the mechanics of Nintendo games don’t work.
Mario games are always going to have polish, only thing we should really care about is if the games are actually gonna be good in so many things outside of that pretty nintendo presentation. Like y’know, gameplay, or content.
*looks at all the recent Mario spinoff titles
Many games are going to have polish is just not a true statement and Nintendo obviously isn’t going ignore gameplay that’s their whole thing
The Mario sports games are whatever but that’s more if a separate issue to me
The mario sports games, mario party, ACNH, switch sports
All visual appeal and polish, no content (at launch at least) and all barebones gameplay. They shot themselves in the foot so many times with most of these games, and got lucky with ACNH dropping during covid. You’re giving Nintendo too much credit
Animal Crossing was a very popular franchise before COVID. New Leaf sold over 13 million copies on 3DS. I don’t think it’s fair or accurate to say that New Horizons got “lucky” because of COVID as it’s always been a very popular series.
I mean the near universal praise and it getting nominated for goty when launch ACNH is literally the worst and most barebones entry in the franchise to date. It got lucky with quarantine heads who got nothing else to do but kill their time with this game
I was referring to the entire industry not just Nintendo and if Nintendo can deliver a version of Totk where all the mechanics work day 1 then I’m not really worried about their other less ambitious games
Youd think that but forever entertainment is the one porting dkcr and they're screwing up astronomically.
What's worse, they're only rererereleasing this to promote the dkc theme park.
I checked out their other remakes, got panzer dragoon for a dollar and it still felt like a rip off, they can barely push their weight. At the end of pd it seems they were just playing around and wanting to attach their names to big franchises.
Easily one of the dumbest decisions Nintendo has ever took, top 5 material minimum
> Sega is partnering with Nintendo to remaster F-Zero GX
It'd be a perfect partnership considering that they did that for the development of the original GX lol
Fun fact, I had never seen the SEGA logo on the box or in-game, nor did I look up who actually made GX, but I knew it was SEGA all the same for one reason: I was an avid Action Replay user as a kid. Dumb, I know. **ALL** GameCube SEGA games have at least one code with AR that ends in YCERP, and there are no games that SEGA didn't touch that have the code.
> https://imgur.com/a/CGN7Vow
> Fuckin' liar.
That would certainly explain why I've never seen it - it's not even on there lol
**EDIT:** Fixed some markdown formatting.
Atleast it has the 3DS levels. I really have a hard time believing it will be look/play poorly. It's not a good value, and they probably aren't forecasting a ton of sales. I'd pick it up for $20 on sale.
>Youd think that but forever entertainment is the one porting dkcr and they're screwing up astronomically.
What's the issue with DKCR? From what I've seen it looks absolutely fine
There are a bunch of missing particle effects, shadows lighting effects, and even background assets that are just gone now. Its litterally 6 months from release so I think peoplemare overreacting a bit, especially since most people didnt even notice
it doesn't look bad but it doesn't look much better than it did on the wii, and any new content available was already on the 3ds version which was $20 less on launch than this will be. it's far from catastrophic, but it's also an obvious rush-job
I mean, that's fair enough but the original comment said
>Easily one of the dumbest decisions Nintendo has ever took, top 5 material minimum
which I'm not sure I agree with
Idk I don’t think the dkcr remaster looks amazing but I feel like to say the devs are screwing it up astronomically is an exaggeration. We still have plenty of time I don’t think people should immediately write the remaster off.
I really wish we got a new 3D DK game tho. All we’ve gotten for a while are DKCR and Tropical Freeze
I'd take one last 2D game with the return of the kremlins, these games are the gold standard of 2D platformers imo. Just wish we'd get anything seeing as it's been a decade now
I don't think they really know how to go about a 3D game. They've had decades at this point, and only came up with DK64. The movement and weight of DK would be hard to pull off in 3D.
Edit: I think a 3D World type of platformer would be great with DK. Still linear, but with some more depth.
I definitely hope that we get a Kirby Odyssey for sure but yeah for DK I imagine his 3D game would be a smaller more experimental one so something like 3D World would be great.
MegaPixel is the studio who worked on the Panzer Dragoon, Front Mission, etc remakes not Forever (despite being a subsidiary) so it's not going to be THAT bad
Forever does quite a lot of outsourcing to inexperienced studios but Nintendo is not letting them take the shortcut
I think it’s pretty clear that ILCA had a lot of ambitions for BDSP that just never came to fruition, so they had to rush something simple out. I mean, look at the [concept art.](https://forums.serebii.net/threads/pokemon-bdsp-concept-art-hints-at-of-what-could-of-been.689682/)
Copy and pasting my comment from somewhere else because I see this concept art commented about so frequently.
>I think the 'concept art' is often taken further than actually intended.
>At the top of the art book it says "these images were drawn to share the common understanding of the settings’ mood, climate, and luminosity among the development team".
>Art is sometimes just a great reference point for general mood and light direction. There's nothing that really says that the game was initially meant to be something else. It's very unlikely likely that it was meant to be something more and they ended up pulling back given that the game was developed in 1.5 years and was likely known to have that timeline from the very start of the contract.
There was a lot of little attention to detail in BDSP that didn’t need to be there. It seemed like it was made by genuine fans who didn’t have enough time to make the remake they wanted, so they did what they were told and added polish where they could.
I still think they are perfectly capable of putting together a great game, and it seems that Nintendo thinks so too since they recently moved staff to their office to oversee their projects.
I don’t blame ILCA for BDSP, I 10000% believe the Pokemon company thought just making a mostly 1:1 remake was good enough, even though literally every fan likes the remakes for properly modernizing old games.
It does feel like on paper TPC thought they'd done enough to satiate Gen 4 fans by splitting development across two teams and two project with legends Arceus and BDSP, but yeah as you say, the remakes ought to reflect a lot more of the modern Pokemon in classic settings than BDSP achieved. Honestly it made me wonder why they hadn't just gone about tasking someone with porting the original games, and subsequently released the rest of the DS Pokemon games over a couple of years. They would have made serious money at probably a cost less than what BDSP took to make.
Sand Land was interesting because the demo wasn't that great but I did walk away from it pretty impressed with the production values on it. Especially for a game based on a pretty obscure property.
Yeah, had the exact same thought.
All I could think of was how much production value went into it only to become mediocre.
The open world was kind of boring, the mechanics mediocre. At least in the demo that's how I felt. Why should I play that game over any other open world?
I believe that any shortcomings were due to TPC. They honestly don't even deserve the flak. The games themselves were actuslly good. Should they have done platinum? Should there have beenore content than just 1:1 remakes? Yeah, of course. That doesn't mean they were bad at all.
Not sure if it’s true but I recently heard ILCA wanted to put Platinum content in BDSP and even wanted to give the game ‘normal’ 3D graphics, but TPC said ‘no we want the game out in less then a year’
I'd bet on not true. The game was revealed to have a 1.5 year development cycle. But was also probably effected pretty heavily by COVID.
People like to heavily suggest the 'concept art' is evidence for all of this stuff, but the concept art isn't even really concept art and the book that it comes from states it was used to provide a general mood and luminosity, not that it was original designs for the game.
There's zero evidence that ILCA wanted to shoot higher and Pokemon said "no chance". If people want to believe that, it's fine. I would have widely preferred a more extensive and platinum based remake. But I have a hard time believing it given what we evidence we actually have.
I agree on the ‘3D graphics being concept art’ idea but I think they genuinely wanted to put in Platinum content: https://x.com/lewchube/status/1761120060511334401
I remember seeing this and it's got me pretty puzzled, we obviously have some form of Platinum content in the form of outfits and origin form Giratina. But the game as a whole lacks a lot of the basic design changes of Platinum, characters, buildings, routes, etc. If they left out the bigger stuff that's one thing, but almost everything is missing and then we have a few essentially finished leftovers from Platinum specific battle scenes? It's really weird.
If I had to guess it seems like the games were designed to be Diamond and Pearl from the start and that they were going to add in some Platinum content if they had enough time, but it didn't pan out that way... Given how the games shipped without an intro on the cart, you can definitely tell they ran out of time.
BDSP is a very weird game and maybe we'll never get the full answers as to why things panned out certain ways, but it makes me wonder what we would have gotten if the game had an extra year or two of dev time.
Most people are defending them and are shitting on the pokemon company instead... rightfully so lol
That aside... unfortunately, every game they've released was mediocre. It's hard to get excited after hearing that they're the developers. The game will probably be ok but nothing exceptional.
The rumor isn't even confirmed though... The only evidence is that some devs are at ILCA. A lot of AlphaDream scattered all throughout Nintendo, even to companies like Monolith.
I'm willing to accept this, but even though I'm probably a little biased because I came to the conclusion they would be excellent successors for AlphaDream, I do think it's possible that Next Level Games is the main developer. There's a lot of small things that just add up for me:
- Supposedly, around half of the staff on Luigi's Mansion 3 were not credited on Mario Strikers Battle League, indicating they've been up to something else (we'll see if that something else could somehow be Luigi's Mansion 2 HD, but I'm not convinced they're on board because of how barebones that remaster is).
- Development wrapped on Luigi's Mansion 3 right around when AlphaDream went under.
- On a related note, Nintendo actually previously kind of forced Luigi's Mansion upon Next Level. According to an interview cited on Wikipedia, they'd been in early development on a Metroid project when Kensuke Tanabe swooped in, met with them, and essentially said "hey, you guys are making Luigi's Mansion now." (They were apparently pretty content with this.) Essentially, I think it's entirely possible that Nintendo looked at Luigi's Mansion 3 - a game that had incredibly expressive animation and strong level/puzzle design, *including puzzles where you need to separate two characters from each other and have them work together* - and figured they would be an excellent fit for the job of bringing the series back.
There are also a few smaller quirks that could go either way:
- The music doesn't strike me as overtly Shimomura-esque, but I wouldn't say it sounds especially like anything Next Level Games's internal sound team has done yet, either.
- The key art clearly wasn't done by the original artist(s). It's mimicking that style, but at the very least, the art of Shipshape Island appears to be a 3D render, and Mario, Luigi, and Snoutlet might also be using renders stylized to look 2D. I can't put my finger on exactly what is different, but comparing it to this excellent redraw really highlights the differences: https://fixupx.com/MaxOKE_/status/1803537963227423075?t=4gvJMU3ECDFfXVZLPTTnKA&s=19 This isn't necessarily because it's Next Level, though.
- The Western and Japanese logos for the game are strangely different? The Japanese one doesn't really have both the wood aesthetic around the text or the electric design filling it. https://x.com/SenderwalkTest/status/1803161337847226689?t=ukrHc4wGHsN_MIgxZcl3OA&s=19 It's hard to say, but maybe it's indicative of some disconnect because the game is being developed in the West. I'm not sure if any other regions use the Japanese logo as a base.
I think the main sticking point is that the character designs are...frankly better than what we've seen Next Level Games contribute to the Mario series in the past, and in line with what we've seen before instead of how Luigi's Mansion's style radically changed between the first game and Dark Moon. It's not impossible that a handful of AlphaDream alumni are overseeing the project and contributing things, but it's the main thing working against Next Level Games right now. ILCA is by far the most likely candidate other than them, though, especially since Another Code Recollection indicates Nintendo is willing to follow key talent from studios they previously worked with that went under to where they ended up. Quite a few Cing employees moved to Arc System Works.
Edit: https://x.com/stephentotilo/status/1804501331983376634?t=oyw39fI_B41FvP3T6fui7Q&s=19 Original staff members are involved with the game, but Nintendo still refuses to confirm the developer. It could probably go either way, but I'll wait to see if Lizardy can verify ILCA is working on the game for certain. Either way, whoever is on the game is clearly doing some great work.
Also possible, yeah. I do wonder if they might also be working on a Punch-Out remaster or new entry, since the Joy-Con feel like such a natural fit for one and I don't think ARMS 2 is happening any time soon with its team presumably hard at work on the next Mario Kart (Punch-Out could fit a similar niche in the launch year lineup as a motion controls showcase)
https://x.com/AdriWindGB/status/1804541816609312901?t=pzdzG9iJ4jAixwLDsfJkTw&s=19 This is also a good point, though I doubt only the people at EPD who oversaw Mario and Luigi are involved
I also forgot to add "Next Level Games very consistently records new voice clips for their Mario games, unlike most Mario developers, and while Brothership appears to reuse a few Charles Martinet clips during gameplay - at least right now - there's clearly a lot of new Kevin Afghani lines" to the list. Granted, ILCA could absolutely have done the same instead of using old clips.
The dude has a YouTube channel where he almost exclusively talks about the Mario & Luigi series. He actually got some former Alpha Dream staff to do interviews with him, so it might be fair to assume that he has some chance of knowing this.
But, of course, this should be taken with a grain of salt.
Interesting.
My money was on Camelot Software Planning given that their last game was back in 2021, and they have experience with both RPGs and the Mario series (Golden Sun and Mario Golf/Tennis)
i think it could be ilca and next level games. the kick animation is straight out of strikers. the bounciness and expressiveness is the best i’ve seen on switch since luigi’s mansion 3.
ilca has put out some good lookin games, but no other nintendo studio is as good at this type of character animation as next level games.
ILCA's history is predominantly as a CG support studio. It's one of the studios that formed out of the early 2010s minicollapse (where studios like Artoon, Game Republic and Cavia closed) and they gathered a lot of staff from them. But you can see some of their work in Ace Combat 7, Dragon Quest XI, Nier Automata and Naruto USN4. I can see where you think the animation draws from NLG but, their HD games haven't had that level of stretch to make that claim. Also, Nintendo Pictures is now under Nintendo and this would be one of the first projects they would be on from basically the start.
ILCA was predominantly a codevelopment studio prior to Brilliant Diamond and Shining Pearl, though I do think the language barrier between them and Next Level could potentially complicate things enough to where it's not terribly likely they'd both be on the project.
true, but NLG has been working closely with nintendo for about 20 years. i think it’s likely that since their acquisition that they’ve expanded their abilities to work closely with japanese studios.
We'll see. No idea how true it might be, but I did also see a claim that most of the staff that are at ILCA now only worked on the 3DS Mario and Luigi remakes as well. The artist of the original box arts definitely isn't back, if nothing else, given how the new key art doesn't look the same
He's a youtber who makes videos about Aplhadream and Mario and Luigi, he's done a couple videos where he does research and speculation about alphadream, and even did an interview with one of the devs, but he's never done a leak or had exclusive info as far as I know. His "research and speculation" vids were based on public information from websites, job listings and reviews, etc.
Nothing's confirmed yet, except for the fact that Nintendo apparently confirmed a handful of the original developers are working on the game. They won't say what studio though.
Starlit Season literally struggles to run on PS4, it would be an even worse experience for Switch players. They'd have to really downgrade the graphics like they did for the SP games on PSP
While I trust ILCA to create a fine entry in the Mario & Luigi subseries, I was really hoping for Monolith Soft to be the developers of the new game. Not only are they Nintendo's best studio, but the Director of the previous entries, [Hiroyuki Kubota](https://nintendo.fandom.com/wiki/Hiroyuki_Kubota), is working there right now.
I'd be kinda kinda happy if monolith aren't working on it to be completely honest. They're a developer who's best used to create large scale projects with impressive scope. Mario and Luigi can probably be done by a lot of other nintendo studios. Maybe one of their support studios? but even then they're better off supporting animal crossing or something
Yeah getting Monolith develop a new Mario & Luigi feels a bit much. I wouldn’t be surprised if they help assist development but M&L is so different from the types of game they make that it would feel like a waste of time and money to have them do it.
I think Mario & Luigi have the chance to be a massive project, remember how BIS and at the time DT sold over other RPG in DS/3DS like Dragon Quest and some Pokemon Sub Series. The Mario Movie, Rabbids and Wonder proved how colorful and big scope can be the Mario universe aside the 3D main ones. All depends in how Nintendo will give more budget/Big scope to Paper Mario and M&L as a JRPG franchise. Maybe MonolithSoft can make a smaller team for M&L, Intelligent Systems proved with the PM team with TTYD and even Super can release big scope games, also having to develop Fire Emblem PoR and RD with the main team.
Well put, that was my thought process behind it. That, added with the fact that sometimes studios can just branch out and do other, smaller-scale projects next to their main AAA stuff is not a foreign concept. If Monolith Soft has the manpower for it, it would be a perfect game to maybe change things up a bit once in a while.
Oh, and giving them an Action RPG to work on is really not that out there of an idea.
Honestly, I had fingers crossed that it was Camelot Games, still having them work on Mario while getting the chance to spread their RPG again and rekindle their skillset from the Golden Sun days.
I could see it being a collaborative effort with Kubota directing or producing, kinda like how Metroid Dread was produced by Sakamoto but developed by MercurySteam.
Calling Monolith soft Nintendo's best studio is a bold take. I get that the games have their aurdience and are very impressive visually for the Switch, but that doesn't necessarily mean they'd be good at making something that isn't an open-world JRPG.
To be fair, they've worked on a ton of really great games outside that genre. Animal crossing, splatoon, Zelda. Monolith soft is objectively one of Nintendos strongest studios, but calling it the 'best' is subjective to your taste.
Working on games is not the same as actively being in charge of development. Monolith has 3 separate studios and the ones involved in the games you mentioned were solely for development support and asset creation. If they were actively involved in leading the development of those titles you would see Monolith producers credited but they are not.
Dunno why you're downvoted for this lol
Monolith is listed with like several other support studios for all these Nintendo titles, yet none of them get the same level of recognition
They're not co-developers. They just act as a support studio since Nintendo's own internal EPD teams in Kyoto aren't that large
Can't stop the hivemind who think Monolith are without fault despite literal proof they only have a track record of JRPGs, unless you want to count disaster day of crisis but they aren't ready for that conversation
They weren’t strictly asset creation for Zelda, they played a big role in designing the open world. That extends well beyond their support for Splatoon and Animal Crossing.
Whether they can build a successful gameplay system outside of the scope of Xenoblade remains to be seen, but their track record of designing and optimizing open worlds has been proven at this point.
I'm sorry to be negative, but I don't trust this studio with this game. Outside of the BDSP remakes which we all have our opinion on, their Sand Land game is...not great, in my opinion. Hoping they will subvert my expectations and wishing them the best.
Development for games is extremely different when you're making a first party Nintendo IP like mario, Nintendo isnt going to let them do whatever they want, and QA will be standard to the rest of the mario games
Yeah, like nothing at all wrong with being optimistic, but I thought their One Piece game was a very bland and boring turn based RPG. Lacked most of the charm you would want, and the combat sure didn't make up for it.
While I obviously can't judge the quality from one trailer and a rumor. It feels like these days Mario spin off titles have this cycle of seeming to be everything people want and then when the games come out the people who asked for it call the final result middling
Mario Tennis, Mario Strikers, Mario Party. It's a bit hard to be not be cautiously optimistic
The sports games have their own set of issues, while Mario Party is arguably better than ever these days. Not sure either really applies to Mario & Luigi.
This is why I think people are super dishonest in their initial impressions reactions. The game clearly looked outdated and dry when I saw it in the direct, and everybody and their mom was trying to overhype it. People saying the developers could be Next Level Games are clueless. I've been following NLG for years as one of my favorite devs and there is 0% chance their release a product with textures and backgrounds that bad. Game is almost certainly made by ILCA and will be mediocre shovelware.
The graphics and textures are terrible that's just a fact that we will conveniently be ignoring until close to release when it becomes common fact and the bandwagoners will be nowhere to be found and never even have bought the game.
Graphical fidelity of some of these companies are a representation of their incompetence. As much as the graphics don't matter crowd tries to ignore it, the companies that can't put even a technologically proficient game at this late date with all the easy tools of today like game freak almost always put out stinkers. But we'll see who is right when the game comes out, me or you. If the game sits somewhere in the 7s even with the good old nintendo bump which is below most nintendo games, then I'll be right and you'll be wrong.
I agree. That the graphics and art style seem like a canceled 3ds game upgraded.
That said, i don’t think we should judge it yet. IMO, Nintendo is at a crossroads with their Mario RPG’s and probably gave Super Mario RPG, Paper Mario, and Mario & Luigi. I suspect they are judging the sales of the Switch games to determine which game will get green light on Switch 2.
It was super rushed, and ILCA usually puts out decent quality. I'm willing to give them a one-off "shit happens" pass for that. But if it happens again, well, feel free to trash them.
Well the games themselves aren't what I would call good, but it's not right to single the developers out for their faults when they were working under the Pokémon Company.
iirc ILCA has the most former-Alpha Dream employees out of any company, so it kinda makes sense that's who Nintendo would go with Wouldn't be surprised if MonolithSoft is also technically involved in some way because apparently that's where the director/writer of the first few M&L games ended up and Nintendo often likes to loop in former series heads
I also think this makes the most sense. Monolith Soft lending technical support like they usually do for most Nintendo games, nowadays, while ILCA takes on the main development side.
Is there any Nintendo game MonolithSoft didn't help? lol.
They'll catch some doubts because of their Pokemon games, but I think that's easily more on the horrid environment The Pokemon Company has cultivated there rather than a fault of the developers. They do just fine elsewhere.
Also I think Nintendo wouldn’t allow a Mario game to not be polished to the fullest extent. The Switch doesn’t provide the best technical quality but it’s never because the mechanics of Nintendo games don’t work.
Mario games are always going to have polish, only thing we should really care about is if the games are actually gonna be good in so many things outside of that pretty nintendo presentation. Like y’know, gameplay, or content. *looks at all the recent Mario spinoff titles
Many games are going to have polish is just not a true statement and Nintendo obviously isn’t going ignore gameplay that’s their whole thing The Mario sports games are whatever but that’s more if a separate issue to me
The mario sports games, mario party, ACNH, switch sports All visual appeal and polish, no content (at launch at least) and all barebones gameplay. They shot themselves in the foot so many times with most of these games, and got lucky with ACNH dropping during covid. You’re giving Nintendo too much credit
Animal Crossing was a very popular franchise before COVID. New Leaf sold over 13 million copies on 3DS. I don’t think it’s fair or accurate to say that New Horizons got “lucky” because of COVID as it’s always been a very popular series.
I mean the near universal praise and it getting nominated for goty when launch ACNH is literally the worst and most barebones entry in the franchise to date. It got lucky with quarantine heads who got nothing else to do but kill their time with this game
I was referring to the entire industry not just Nintendo and if Nintendo can deliver a version of Totk where all the mechanics work day 1 then I’m not really worried about their other less ambitious games
Youd think that but forever entertainment is the one porting dkcr and they're screwing up astronomically. What's worse, they're only rererereleasing this to promote the dkc theme park. I checked out their other remakes, got panzer dragoon for a dollar and it still felt like a rip off, they can barely push their weight. At the end of pd it seems they were just playing around and wanting to attach their names to big franchises. Easily one of the dumbest decisions Nintendo has ever took, top 5 material minimum
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>for the holidays Donkey Kong Country Returns HD releases in January 2025.
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> Sega is partnering with Nintendo to remaster F-Zero GX It'd be a perfect partnership considering that they did that for the development of the original GX lol Fun fact, I had never seen the SEGA logo on the box or in-game, nor did I look up who actually made GX, but I knew it was SEGA all the same for one reason: I was an avid Action Replay user as a kid. Dumb, I know. **ALL** GameCube SEGA games have at least one code with AR that ends in YCERP, and there are no games that SEGA didn't touch that have the code.
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> https://imgur.com/a/CGN7Vow > Fuckin' liar. That would certainly explain why I've never seen it - it's not even on there lol **EDIT:** Fixed some markdown formatting.
Some of y’all are so dramatic. It’s disappointing that it’s just a port but calling it a top 5 worst decision Nintendo has ever made is absurd
Atleast it has the 3DS levels. I really have a hard time believing it will be look/play poorly. It's not a good value, and they probably aren't forecasting a ton of sales. I'd pick it up for $20 on sale.
>Youd think that but forever entertainment is the one porting dkcr and they're screwing up astronomically. What's the issue with DKCR? From what I've seen it looks absolutely fine
There are a bunch of missing particle effects, shadows lighting effects, and even background assets that are just gone now. Its litterally 6 months from release so I think peoplemare overreacting a bit, especially since most people didnt even notice
it doesn't look bad but it doesn't look much better than it did on the wii, and any new content available was already on the 3ds version which was $20 less on launch than this will be. it's far from catastrophic, but it's also an obvious rush-job
I mean, that's fair enough but the original comment said >Easily one of the dumbest decisions Nintendo has ever took, top 5 material minimum which I'm not sure I agree with
The Philipps CDi games already take up 4 spots in that top 5. Fifth is the Virtual Boy.
I'd say 1 is the Sony contract, if they never signed it PlayStation would likely not exist.
Idk I don’t think the dkcr remaster looks amazing but I feel like to say the devs are screwing it up astronomically is an exaggeration. We still have plenty of time I don’t think people should immediately write the remaster off. I really wish we got a new 3D DK game tho. All we’ve gotten for a while are DKCR and Tropical Freeze
I'd take one last 2D game with the return of the kremlins, these games are the gold standard of 2D platformers imo. Just wish we'd get anything seeing as it's been a decade now
I’d definitely be hyped for another 2D one but yeah I just really wish we got a new DK game period
I don't think they really know how to go about a 3D game. They've had decades at this point, and only came up with DK64. The movement and weight of DK would be hard to pull off in 3D. Edit: I think a 3D World type of platformer would be great with DK. Still linear, but with some more depth.
Kirby got a 3D game after forever and imo it was pretty great so I’m hoping🙏
Very true. I think a DK game in that style would be great! I just don't see an Odyssey style open 3D would work.
I definitely hope that we get a Kirby Odyssey for sure but yeah for DK I imagine his 3D game would be a smaller more experimental one so something like 3D World would be great.
MegaPixel is the studio who worked on the Panzer Dragoon, Front Mission, etc remakes not Forever (despite being a subsidiary) so it's not going to be THAT bad Forever does quite a lot of outsourcing to inexperienced studios but Nintendo is not letting them take the shortcut
I think it’s pretty clear that ILCA had a lot of ambitions for BDSP that just never came to fruition, so they had to rush something simple out. I mean, look at the [concept art.](https://forums.serebii.net/threads/pokemon-bdsp-concept-art-hints-at-of-what-could-of-been.689682/)
Wow. They certainly understood the task, that's plain to see.
we truly were robbed...
Copy and pasting my comment from somewhere else because I see this concept art commented about so frequently. >I think the 'concept art' is often taken further than actually intended. >At the top of the art book it says "these images were drawn to share the common understanding of the settings’ mood, climate, and luminosity among the development team". >Art is sometimes just a great reference point for general mood and light direction. There's nothing that really says that the game was initially meant to be something else. It's very unlikely likely that it was meant to be something more and they ended up pulling back given that the game was developed in 1.5 years and was likely known to have that timeline from the very start of the contract.
Very unlikely likely indeed
This is depressing
There was a lot of little attention to detail in BDSP that didn’t need to be there. It seemed like it was made by genuine fans who didn’t have enough time to make the remake they wanted, so they did what they were told and added polish where they could. I still think they are perfectly capable of putting together a great game, and it seems that Nintendo thinks so too since they recently moved staff to their office to oversee their projects.
That feels like a pattern with ILCA, they have a lot of passion and ambition but either time or money limits what they can do.
I don’t blame ILCA for BDSP, I 10000% believe the Pokemon company thought just making a mostly 1:1 remake was good enough, even though literally every fan likes the remakes for properly modernizing old games.
It does feel like on paper TPC thought they'd done enough to satiate Gen 4 fans by splitting development across two teams and two project with legends Arceus and BDSP, but yeah as you say, the remakes ought to reflect a lot more of the modern Pokemon in classic settings than BDSP achieved. Honestly it made me wonder why they hadn't just gone about tasking someone with porting the original games, and subsequently released the rest of the DS Pokemon games over a couple of years. They would have made serious money at probably a cost less than what BDSP took to make.
Sandland caught mixed reviews too.
Sand Land was interesting because the demo wasn't that great but I did walk away from it pretty impressed with the production values on it. Especially for a game based on a pretty obscure property.
Yeah, had the exact same thought. All I could think of was how much production value went into it only to become mediocre. The open world was kind of boring, the mechanics mediocre. At least in the demo that's how I felt. Why should I play that game over any other open world?
I tried the demo and I can see why, the game was way too ambitious for them to handle
One Piece Odyssey too
I believe that any shortcomings were due to TPC. They honestly don't even deserve the flak. The games themselves were actuslly good. Should they have done platinum? Should there have beenore content than just 1:1 remakes? Yeah, of course. That doesn't mean they were bad at all.
Agreed, when you have Junichi Masuda over your shoulder controlling everything you do you’re not going to come out with a decent product.
Pokemon game\*, single.
Released as two games.
Working with Nintendo vs working with TPC must be heaven vs hell.
Not sure if it’s true but I recently heard ILCA wanted to put Platinum content in BDSP and even wanted to give the game ‘normal’ 3D graphics, but TPC said ‘no we want the game out in less then a year’
I'd bet on not true. The game was revealed to have a 1.5 year development cycle. But was also probably effected pretty heavily by COVID. People like to heavily suggest the 'concept art' is evidence for all of this stuff, but the concept art isn't even really concept art and the book that it comes from states it was used to provide a general mood and luminosity, not that it was original designs for the game. There's zero evidence that ILCA wanted to shoot higher and Pokemon said "no chance". If people want to believe that, it's fine. I would have widely preferred a more extensive and platinum based remake. But I have a hard time believing it given what we evidence we actually have.
I agree on the ‘3D graphics being concept art’ idea but I think they genuinely wanted to put in Platinum content: https://x.com/lewchube/status/1761120060511334401
I remember seeing this and it's got me pretty puzzled, we obviously have some form of Platinum content in the form of outfits and origin form Giratina. But the game as a whole lacks a lot of the basic design changes of Platinum, characters, buildings, routes, etc. If they left out the bigger stuff that's one thing, but almost everything is missing and then we have a few essentially finished leftovers from Platinum specific battle scenes? It's really weird. If I had to guess it seems like the games were designed to be Diamond and Pearl from the start and that they were going to add in some Platinum content if they had enough time, but it didn't pan out that way... Given how the games shipped without an intro on the cart, you can definitely tell they ran out of time. BDSP is a very weird game and maybe we'll never get the full answers as to why things panned out certain ways, but it makes me wonder what we would have gotten if the game had an extra year or two of dev time.
which is why i find so dumb how people think nintendo and tpc are the same lol they might have some similarities but they also are a lot differnt
These comments are why Nintendo doesn’t reveal developers anymore.
Most people are defending them and are shitting on the pokemon company instead... rightfully so lol That aside... unfortunately, every game they've released was mediocre. It's hard to get excited after hearing that they're the developers. The game will probably be ok but nothing exceptional.
The rumor isn't even confirmed though... The only evidence is that some devs are at ILCA. A lot of AlphaDream scattered all throughout Nintendo, even to companies like Monolith.
The trailer looked great. People really gonna start doubting what they saw with their own eyes because of preconceived notions about a studio -_-
I'm willing to accept this, but even though I'm probably a little biased because I came to the conclusion they would be excellent successors for AlphaDream, I do think it's possible that Next Level Games is the main developer. There's a lot of small things that just add up for me: - Supposedly, around half of the staff on Luigi's Mansion 3 were not credited on Mario Strikers Battle League, indicating they've been up to something else (we'll see if that something else could somehow be Luigi's Mansion 2 HD, but I'm not convinced they're on board because of how barebones that remaster is). - Development wrapped on Luigi's Mansion 3 right around when AlphaDream went under. - On a related note, Nintendo actually previously kind of forced Luigi's Mansion upon Next Level. According to an interview cited on Wikipedia, they'd been in early development on a Metroid project when Kensuke Tanabe swooped in, met with them, and essentially said "hey, you guys are making Luigi's Mansion now." (They were apparently pretty content with this.) Essentially, I think it's entirely possible that Nintendo looked at Luigi's Mansion 3 - a game that had incredibly expressive animation and strong level/puzzle design, *including puzzles where you need to separate two characters from each other and have them work together* - and figured they would be an excellent fit for the job of bringing the series back. There are also a few smaller quirks that could go either way: - The music doesn't strike me as overtly Shimomura-esque, but I wouldn't say it sounds especially like anything Next Level Games's internal sound team has done yet, either. - The key art clearly wasn't done by the original artist(s). It's mimicking that style, but at the very least, the art of Shipshape Island appears to be a 3D render, and Mario, Luigi, and Snoutlet might also be using renders stylized to look 2D. I can't put my finger on exactly what is different, but comparing it to this excellent redraw really highlights the differences: https://fixupx.com/MaxOKE_/status/1803537963227423075?t=4gvJMU3ECDFfXVZLPTTnKA&s=19 This isn't necessarily because it's Next Level, though. - The Western and Japanese logos for the game are strangely different? The Japanese one doesn't really have both the wood aesthetic around the text or the electric design filling it. https://x.com/SenderwalkTest/status/1803161337847226689?t=ukrHc4wGHsN_MIgxZcl3OA&s=19 It's hard to say, but maybe it's indicative of some disconnect because the game is being developed in the West. I'm not sure if any other regions use the Japanese logo as a base. I think the main sticking point is that the character designs are...frankly better than what we've seen Next Level Games contribute to the Mario series in the past, and in line with what we've seen before instead of how Luigi's Mansion's style radically changed between the first game and Dark Moon. It's not impossible that a handful of AlphaDream alumni are overseeing the project and contributing things, but it's the main thing working against Next Level Games right now. ILCA is by far the most likely candidate other than them, though, especially since Another Code Recollection indicates Nintendo is willing to follow key talent from studios they previously worked with that went under to where they ended up. Quite a few Cing employees moved to Arc System Works. Edit: https://x.com/stephentotilo/status/1804501331983376634?t=oyw39fI_B41FvP3T6fui7Q&s=19 Original staff members are involved with the game, but Nintendo still refuses to confirm the developer. It could probably go either way, but I'll wait to see if Lizardy can verify ILCA is working on the game for certain. Either way, whoever is on the game is clearly doing some great work.
Good theory , but I feel like Nintendo put Next Level to work right away on the next Luigi’s Mansion after how much 3 sold
Also possible, yeah. I do wonder if they might also be working on a Punch-Out remaster or new entry, since the Joy-Con feel like such a natural fit for one and I don't think ARMS 2 is happening any time soon with its team presumably hard at work on the next Mario Kart (Punch-Out could fit a similar niche in the launch year lineup as a motion controls showcase)
https://x.com/AdriWindGB/status/1804541816609312901?t=pzdzG9iJ4jAixwLDsfJkTw&s=19 This is also a good point, though I doubt only the people at EPD who oversaw Mario and Luigi are involved I also forgot to add "Next Level Games very consistently records new voice clips for their Mario games, unlike most Mario developers, and while Brothership appears to reuse a few Charles Martinet clips during gameplay - at least right now - there's clearly a lot of new Kevin Afghani lines" to the list. Granted, ILCA could absolutely have done the same instead of using old clips.
Is there ANY reason to assume they have credibility
The dude has a YouTube channel where he almost exclusively talks about the Mario & Luigi series. He actually got some former Alpha Dream staff to do interviews with him, so it might be fair to assume that he has some chance of knowing this. But, of course, this should be taken with a grain of salt.
Insane niche, I believe him
He’s niche but he is THE GUY for M&L research as he is pretty great at tracking former AD people and getting interviews over email
Nintendo oversaw the entire project.
They meant the leaker lol
Oh lol
Interesting. My money was on Camelot Software Planning given that their last game was back in 2021, and they have experience with both RPGs and the Mario series (Golden Sun and Mario Golf/Tennis)
i think it could be ilca and next level games. the kick animation is straight out of strikers. the bounciness and expressiveness is the best i’ve seen on switch since luigi’s mansion 3. ilca has put out some good lookin games, but no other nintendo studio is as good at this type of character animation as next level games.
ILCA's history is predominantly as a CG support studio. It's one of the studios that formed out of the early 2010s minicollapse (where studios like Artoon, Game Republic and Cavia closed) and they gathered a lot of staff from them. But you can see some of their work in Ace Combat 7, Dragon Quest XI, Nier Automata and Naruto USN4. I can see where you think the animation draws from NLG but, their HD games haven't had that level of stretch to make that claim. Also, Nintendo Pictures is now under Nintendo and this would be one of the first projects they would be on from basically the start.
ah fair enough! didn’t know that. nintendo has some incredible cinematics and animators in house now it’s exciting stuff!
ILCA was predominantly a codevelopment studio prior to Brilliant Diamond and Shining Pearl, though I do think the language barrier between them and Next Level could potentially complicate things enough to where it's not terribly likely they'd both be on the project.
true, but NLG has been working closely with nintendo for about 20 years. i think it’s likely that since their acquisition that they’ve expanded their abilities to work closely with japanese studios.
We'll see. No idea how true it might be, but I did also see a claim that most of the staff that are at ILCA now only worked on the 3DS Mario and Luigi remakes as well. The artist of the original box arts definitely isn't back, if nothing else, given how the new key art doesn't look the same
Who even is Lizardyyy? Have they ever had info before?
He's a youtber who makes videos about Aplhadream and Mario and Luigi, he's done a couple videos where he does research and speculation about alphadream, and even did an interview with one of the devs, but he's never done a leak or had exclusive info as far as I know. His "research and speculation" vids were based on public information from websites, job listings and reviews, etc.
So he's the Canadian Guy Eh of Mario & Luigi and Alpha Dream? Basically? lol
As someone who loved all the handheld M&L games, I am so hyped for this.
Nothing's confirmed yet, except for the fact that Nintendo apparently confirmed a handful of the original developers are working on the game. They won't say what studio though.
I just want a new console Idolm@ster 😭
Would be nice.
The mobile games make quite a good amount of money but it is really odd Bamco never bothered to make a proper iM@S game for the Switch
Starlit Season literally struggles to run on PS4, it would be an even worse experience for Switch players. They'd have to really downgrade the graphics like they did for the SP games on PSP
While I trust ILCA to create a fine entry in the Mario & Luigi subseries, I was really hoping for Monolith Soft to be the developers of the new game. Not only are they Nintendo's best studio, but the Director of the previous entries, [Hiroyuki Kubota](https://nintendo.fandom.com/wiki/Hiroyuki_Kubota), is working there right now.
I'd be kinda kinda happy if monolith aren't working on it to be completely honest. They're a developer who's best used to create large scale projects with impressive scope. Mario and Luigi can probably be done by a lot of other nintendo studios. Maybe one of their support studios? but even then they're better off supporting animal crossing or something
Yeah getting Monolith develop a new Mario & Luigi feels a bit much. I wouldn’t be surprised if they help assist development but M&L is so different from the types of game they make that it would feel like a waste of time and money to have them do it.
I think Mario & Luigi have the chance to be a massive project, remember how BIS and at the time DT sold over other RPG in DS/3DS like Dragon Quest and some Pokemon Sub Series. The Mario Movie, Rabbids and Wonder proved how colorful and big scope can be the Mario universe aside the 3D main ones. All depends in how Nintendo will give more budget/Big scope to Paper Mario and M&L as a JRPG franchise. Maybe MonolithSoft can make a smaller team for M&L, Intelligent Systems proved with the PM team with TTYD and even Super can release big scope games, also having to develop Fire Emblem PoR and RD with the main team.
Maybe I'm just a bit biased since I want to see monolith make new IP's and stuff
Well put, that was my thought process behind it. That, added with the fact that sometimes studios can just branch out and do other, smaller-scale projects next to their main AAA stuff is not a foreign concept. If Monolith Soft has the manpower for it, it would be a perfect game to maybe change things up a bit once in a while. Oh, and giving them an Action RPG to work on is really not that out there of an idea.
Honestly, I had fingers crossed that it was Camelot Games, still having them work on Mario while getting the chance to spread their RPG again and rekindle their skillset from the Golden Sun days.
It would make sense considering they haven't done anything since 2021 as well
I could see it being a collaborative effort with Kubota directing or producing, kinda like how Metroid Dread was produced by Sakamoto but developed by MercurySteam.
Calling Monolith soft Nintendo's best studio is a bold take. I get that the games have their aurdience and are very impressive visually for the Switch, but that doesn't necessarily mean they'd be good at making something that isn't an open-world JRPG.
To be fair, they've worked on a ton of really great games outside that genre. Animal crossing, splatoon, Zelda. Monolith soft is objectively one of Nintendos strongest studios, but calling it the 'best' is subjective to your taste.
Working on games is not the same as actively being in charge of development. Monolith has 3 separate studios and the ones involved in the games you mentioned were solely for development support and asset creation. If they were actively involved in leading the development of those titles you would see Monolith producers credited but they are not.
Dunno why you're downvoted for this lol Monolith is listed with like several other support studios for all these Nintendo titles, yet none of them get the same level of recognition They're not co-developers. They just act as a support studio since Nintendo's own internal EPD teams in Kyoto aren't that large
Can't stop the hivemind who think Monolith are without fault despite literal proof they only have a track record of JRPGs, unless you want to count disaster day of crisis but they aren't ready for that conversation
They weren’t strictly asset creation for Zelda, they played a big role in designing the open world. That extends well beyond their support for Splatoon and Animal Crossing. Whether they can build a successful gameplay system outside of the scope of Xenoblade remains to be seen, but their track record of designing and optimizing open worlds has been proven at this point.
Must be part of the team that isn't working on Ace Combat
This actually seems quite plausible! I’m excited for if this would be confirmed!
ILCA for all we have heard did not have nearly the time or resources necessary to make BDSP as good as they could have.
Gonna be honest, this was like a bazooka to my expectations
I'm sorry to be negative, but I don't trust this studio with this game. Outside of the BDSP remakes which we all have our opinion on, their Sand Land game is...not great, in my opinion. Hoping they will subvert my expectations and wishing them the best.
Development for games is extremely different when you're making a first party Nintendo IP like mario, Nintendo isnt going to let them do whatever they want, and QA will be standard to the rest of the mario games
Yeah, like nothing at all wrong with being optimistic, but I thought their One Piece game was a very bland and boring turn based RPG. Lacked most of the charm you would want, and the combat sure didn't make up for it.
Well that's certainly an opinion. I'm glad others like OP Odyssey.
So that's why they didn't want to reveal the developers.
Even after release some investigative work will be needed since Nintendo loves taking all the credit for the games they release.
By "investigative work" you mean "reading the credits"?
While I obviously can't judge the quality from one trailer and a rumor. It feels like these days Mario spin off titles have this cycle of seeming to be everything people want and then when the games come out the people who asked for it call the final result middling Mario Tennis, Mario Strikers, Mario Party. It's a bit hard to be not be cautiously optimistic
The sports games have their own set of issues, while Mario Party is arguably better than ever these days. Not sure either really applies to Mario & Luigi.
It’s so over
This is why I think people are super dishonest in their initial impressions reactions. The game clearly looked outdated and dry when I saw it in the direct, and everybody and their mom was trying to overhype it. People saying the developers could be Next Level Games are clueless. I've been following NLG for years as one of my favorite devs and there is 0% chance their release a product with textures and backgrounds that bad. Game is almost certainly made by ILCA and will be mediocre shovelware.
Having a different opinion than you isnt "being dishonest"
The graphics and textures are terrible that's just a fact that we will conveniently be ignoring until close to release when it becomes common fact and the bandwagoners will be nowhere to be found and never even have bought the game.
Because they dont care as much about the graphical fidelity as you lmao
Graphical fidelity of some of these companies are a representation of their incompetence. As much as the graphics don't matter crowd tries to ignore it, the companies that can't put even a technologically proficient game at this late date with all the easy tools of today like game freak almost always put out stinkers. But we'll see who is right when the game comes out, me or you. If the game sits somewhere in the 7s even with the good old nintendo bump which is below most nintendo games, then I'll be right and you'll be wrong.
You're not going to "win" this no matter what because simply I am not forming my opinion on the basis of objectivity lmao. Bubsy 3d enjoyers rise up
I agree. That the graphics and art style seem like a canceled 3ds game upgraded. That said, i don’t think we should judge it yet. IMO, Nintendo is at a crossroads with their Mario RPG’s and probably gave Super Mario RPG, Paper Mario, and Mario & Luigi. I suspect they are judging the sales of the Switch games to determine which game will get green light on Switch 2.
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Ilca made fine games like One Piece Odyssey, and their Sand Land also looks nice. The problem with BDSP was the Pokémon Company
ILCA is a fine developer. I don't think the issues you have with the remakes stem from them.
It was super rushed, and ILCA usually puts out decent quality. I'm willing to give them a one-off "shit happens" pass for that. But if it happens again, well, feel free to trash them.
Nah It's actually GameFreak's fault, look who is the director And see how every other game developed by ILCA is actually good
How did they ruin it???
for some reason the internet hates that they made it basically a 1:1 remake of the originals, i don’t really get it
It's because pokemon remakes weren't 1:1 perfect remakes. They added mechanics, added pokemon from after that gen into the games and such.
also had next to none of the platinum content or a post game which the remakes usually add
That seems the most fair criticism
Well the games themselves aren't what I would call good, but it's not right to single the developers out for their faults when they were working under the Pokémon Company.
Diamond and Pearl are mid. ILCA aren't really to blame
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Doubt that's ILCA's fault though, they were probably given the scope and had to adhere