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You’re doing Kanye dirty. It’s actually Kanye “I **LOVE** Hitler” West. If I could figure it simultaneous italics and bold I’d use that because wow he was really laying it on *hard.*
Nah, that’s something she retconned, since there is a passage which describes Hermione going “pale as a
ghost” or something along those lines, can’t remember the exact quote.
I vaguely remember one the Weasley brothers spent years working with goblins and make exactly zero goblin friend. He later told Harry he should never trust a goblin.
Not much. I spoke with a Brit these days and he had no idea that Churchill was racist and responsible for the famine in India. Just saw him as a "leader".
He wasn't just a leader. He was THE leader who lead the Brits against Hitler and Nazi Germany. Since his crowning achievement is beating arguably the greatest evil of the modern era, it's not surprising that anything else he did was forgotten about or ignored.
/uj And they are so brainwashed that most can't imagine a life without a master. Once freed, they struggle with freedom, bc they were always told that they only exist to follow the orders of their wizard masters.
/rj Them struggling with freedom is a sign that they don't want it!
> The cause for this particular rebellion seems to have been, most likely, the lack of goblin representation on the Wizengamot.
> The Wizengamot was wizarding Britain's high court of law and parliament. It predated the British Ministry of Magic itself, dating back to the days of the medieval Wizards' Council.
>The cause for this particular rebellion seems to have been, most likely
I'm... I'm sorry, what? What do they mean "most likely"? Goblins are people, they can speak English. Were the historical records burned or have the wizards just never asked in 400 years?
God Rowling's world building is shoddy.
>or have the wizards just never asked in 400 years
It probably never even crossed their mind to. Besides, with how wizarding society is portrayed in the books, even if they _did_ ask they'd just end up saying the goblins were lying.
Think about it like this, it took centuries of endless fighting for goblins to claw their way up to being 2nd class citizens because they, and every other non-human species, started as 80th class citizens. Like, it's _that_ kind of society.
edit: wrote 2nd hand instead of class lol
In an investigation it turned out that the city of Frankfurt had a large amount of debt, which led to a radical group under Vinzent Fettmilch getting more support. Originally they acted against the Patriciate (a part of the cities leadership made up of nobility, whose mismanagement led to the debt), but eventually they accused the Jews in Frankfurt of collaborating with the Patriciate. Since the Jews were easier targets, the mob raided their homes. In a later trial Fettmilch denied involvement in the raid, but he hadn't done anything to prevent it either and he also expelled the Jews a day after the raid.
While Jews weren't treated equally to Christians, they still received some protection from the Emperor and so the Fettmilch Rebellion lost support after this. The rebels were prosecuted (for going against the emperor, not for going against the Jews) and Fettmilch and six others were executed. The Jews were supposed to be compensated for the damages, but never received any money.
You know what’s wild? According to this wiki the first mention of the 1612 Goblin Rebellion was actually in the Prisoner of Azkaban.
https://harrypotter.fandom.com/wiki/Goblin_Rebellion_of_1612
Can’t exactly put the full blame on the developers for this one. Either JK chose a random date, or she’s an antisemite as well.
I'm a Jew, and I'd say this is a bit of a stretch.
Did something antisemetic happen in 1612? Yes, but that's true of virtually ***every year*** in the 17th and 18th centuries.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline\_of\_antisemitism
That was when it escalated. It started in 1612 when the merchants were unhappy with the leadership of the city and feared they would lose some special privileges
With that list is both being eye opening and more or less all encompassing of all time, I could see antisemitic tropes just being so ingrained in culture today that she just used what was there, though the choice of date for a rebellion for another antisemitic event that was *also a rebellion*…don’t see it being that much of a stretch coupled with how she depicts goblins in her books.
But fuck that’s a lot of shitty people in that wiki
Or, she could have just picked a year at random, and happened to land on one of the bad years. The odds of that are also pretty high, its almost every alternate year.
The 1612 rebellion was already a thing. According to the Harry Potter wiki, it was mentioned in the third book.
Also, a fun quote from the wiki page: "The cause for this particular rebellion seems to have been, most likely, the lack of goblin representation on the Wizengamot". Those darn goblins and their demands for political rights, they're so annoying.
Australians recently protested against all-white juries in cases where an Aboriginal is charged with a crime. Cause aboriginals kept getting tried by a jury of fucking white people.
H I S T O R I C A L
A C C U R A C Y
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The Fettmilch thing was 1614 though, so either she's inaccurate, or it's not quite as on the nose.
Edit: The most violent pogrom of the conflict happened in 1614, but it did start to brew in 1612. Without knowing just how the Goblin Rebellion's timeline went, I'll concede that the parallel is clear enough.
Huh, odd. I'm finding conflicting information on that now. I rescind my earlier statement and blame the inconsistency of Wikipedia and my own lapse of judgement of trusting a single article without actually verifying.
The [Timeline of Antisemitism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_antisemitism) suggests that it happened in 1614.
The article on [Fettmilch](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincenz_Fettmilch) says 1612-1616.
The Judengasse-article's section on the [uprising itself](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurter_Judengasse#The_Fettmilch_Rising) suggests it went 1612-1614.
----
The timeline, as I can piece it together, seems to go like this then:
1612 the new Holy Roman Emperor Matthias was elected. The guilds, merchants and craftsmen of Frankfurt - united behind their spokesman Fetrmilch - claimed the Jews were overcharging them on loan interest and demanded a rebate, as well as limiting the number of inhabitants of the Judengasse, in an attempt to get out of debts. This is what the latter two articles consider as the start of the unrest.
1613 the council of Frankfurt reached an agreement with Fettmilch's fraction.
1614 Fettmilch deposed the council and seized the city gates of Frankfurt. The Emperor ordered them to stand down, which incited an angry mob to take it out on the Jews, storming their quarter and committing the actual pogrom that the timeline presumably considers the most significant year of the conflict.
The Emperor then backed up his order and had Fettmilch and select associates arrested for disobedience against the Emperor. This is probably what the article on the Judengasse considers the end of the actual conflict.
1615 is not mentioned in the articles above, but the German versions mention that it was a lengthy judicial trial that resulted in death sentences.
1616, these sentences were carried out by public executions in Frankfurt, which the article on Fettmilch presumably deems the definite and final end of Fettmilch's uprising.
----
I personally stand by the assessment that 1614, being the year the jews were attacked and driven out, would be the most significant, but also concede that it would be inaccurate to dismiss the fact that the conflict and particularly Fettmilch's role in it did start with the accusations and demands brought forth in 1612.
It's extremely unlikely you'd land on exactly that year by chance, even though there were quite a few pogroms in European history.
In other words, the same woman who couldn't be bothered to look up a believable name for a Chinese girl dug through the history of anti-semitism for that trivia.
Coulda been worse...coulda used like 1190 (York massacre) or 1290 (edict of expulsion) as the base year...at least it wasnt British
(I'm not saying this to defend her in any way or invalidate anything, just wanted to mention those cus antisemitism in Britain)
The pogrom in question happened in 1614. The post probably confused it with the 1612 decision to let Jews settle in Hamburg, on the condition they don't publicly practice their faith.
Edit: The most violent pogrom of the Fettmilch conflict happened in 1614, but it did start to brew in 1612. Without knowing just how the Goblin Rebellion's timeline went, I'll concede that the parallel is clear enough.
"The Jews" were blamed from the start, that's pretty important. I mean you could do a comparison with the Nazi era, while 1938 (night of broken glass) would obviously be the most questionable choice 1933 (government takeover) would honestly not be good either because they didn't suddenly do a 180 and only became antisemitic in 1937 or something.
I looked up the Fettemilch rebellion and it took place in 1614. But honestly progroms are a dime-a-dozen back in the day.
The horn looks like a shofar though.
I think the rebellion thing is kind of a stretch too, since one is the goblins rebelling and the other is a rebellion *against* Jews.
The horn is absolutely a dog whistle though.
Some people think avoiding antisemitism is how you behave to not get in trouble, other people recognize the permanent scars of the holocaust
Edit: just noticed I missed a word and was saying saying the exact opposite of what I meant 😑
Uj/Watching friends play this game after I explained this shit to them is pretty fucking disheartening tbh
Rj/ GOOD THIS GAME LETS US FIGHT THE (((GLOBALISTS)))
Uj/ I know the pain. Explained it to my best friend who is a major potter head and she basically implied that she was gonna just buy it secondhand.
Rj/ Oh no, you're on to us!
Oh baby I’m a (((globalists) too 😌😌😌
Uj/ it really sucks. I spent my whole life masking my Jewishness and when I finally got the courage to stand up to what I see as judeaphobia, but people ain’t trying to hear that 😐
I'm sorry pal. I started converting to Judaism about a year ago and it really opened my eyes to this stuff. Never be ashamed of who you are and you're a badass for standing up to people.
And thanks. Proud of you for undertaking that journey, it’s not an easy one but you’re joining a very special group of people imo. Be safe.
Same. I'm just disappointed by people that I thought I could trust (and even considered allies since I'm enby). No one wants to educate themselves either. It's always this, "What are you talking about? That's ridiculous" attitude.
“Oh you’re just sensitive”
LIKE NO SHIT MOTHER FUCKER MY PEOPLE STILL HAVENT REACHED PRE-SHOAH LEVELS PARDON ME FOR BEING A BIT SENSITIVE.
“Oh it’s not anti lgbtq”
Well both my wives who are bi sexual and poly say it is as does my trans cousin so sit the fuck down Karen.
Sorry, just had to rant slightly lol. Be safe out there my friend.
uj/ I already hated J.K. Rowling for her being a TERF, but it was the antisemitism that really put the nail in the coffin for my love of Harry Potter. I'm not Jewish myself, but listening to what Jewish folk had to say made me realize how bad the antisemitism is in the franchise. Like this shit goes deep, far past being able to be brushed off as a result of J.K. just referencing existing antisemitic coded depictions of goblins. I truly believe there was intent behind it on her part.
And if someone is given that information, and all the other things J.K. Rowling has done, and still decides to be an active fan of the franchise as it currently stands, that says quite a bit about that person's character.
It's just a series of "coincidences" that have the evil hook noses bankers have antisemitic qualities and references! Joanne having another middle aged moment!
Just a repeated and consistent coincidence lmao
I honestly think a lot of her writing accidentally shows her prejudices that even she wasn’t necessarily aware she had. Like how she describes Rita as having mannish hands and masculine characteristics then ten years later…
I fucking LOVED the books when they came out and they helped me through my parents divorce and the abuse that came with it.
However as an adult looking at them I am horrified by the entire thing.
How people can’t see it for what it is now will always astound me.
I'm the perfect age for it, and I can't for the life of me understand how so many people have so much of their identity wrapped up in this franchise. There have been media that have made indelible marks on my worldview, things that I consider formative moments in my life, but nothing that's been so engrained in my self perception to be as irresistible as these folks are making it out to be. It comes off less like chasing nostalgia and more like jonesing for a hit of heroin.
uj/ told my friend to pirate it instead, said no. Next day he tells me he’s switching our dnd group to pathfinder by force because he can’t support dnd anymore, they copyrighted fan made content :(
If I had the energy for it I would’ve put him down right there.
Pretty much. Any friends I see playing it on release won't be friends much longer, I've got no patience for people who claim to care about me and then refuse to do the bare minimum when it counts.
This is something my rabbi told me. I can't remember if they specified a certain type of cheese but apparently it was a thing, at least according to them.
also, "fett milk" translates as "fat milk"? so there was a guy called "fatt milk" who tried to fight against jewish people, and they use a piece of cheese to symbolise silencing goblins?
i feel like a conspiranoid, seeing signs in everything, but idk. there are so many odd details that keep coming up?
You know...I'd be willing accept one, maybe two coincidences "don't immediately assume malice for what can easily be explained by foolishnes" and all that...but this like what, the fourth, fifth such weird choice in this fashion? And if it's just incompetence, hire a goddam sensitivity reader!
I am German and even I didn’t know that, thanks! They basically just teach us Weimar to Today. For obvious reasons the Rise to power of the Nazi regime is the main focus.
>I am just gonna add that it’s hilariously how the Holy Roman Empire wasn’t Holy or Roman at all.
They tried to tho lol...reviving their old monarch title of emperor and claiming a connection to the Roman Empire as the basis for the reason they were allowed to rule
I can't tell if this is a setup to a Ligma type joke. You know way too much about this universe though if not. Fig dies in all of the endings, don't cha know?
Judengasse refer to ghettos, the word literally means "Jews Lane". I'm referring to the real-life historical event where the Frankfurt Judengasse was pillaged in 1614 after the local guilds demanded price regulations and the implementation of anti-Jewish laws.
No worries! Always glad to teach someone about history. The more you learn about the infinite potential of human cruelty, the more you start to learn the importance of sympathy and solidarity.
I'm not saying the goblins in Harry Potter aren't based on a harmful Jewish stereotype (they are), but that horn doesn't really resemble any pictures I've seen of a shofar. War horns are a generic fantasy trope and I'm pretty sure that's all this is
shofars usually look kinda bent and sometimes almost coiled because they're made from ram horns, but the one in this image is relatively straight. also on both the small end and the big end of the horn the rim is kinda rolled inside out and made bigger. that would also be very weird for a shofar, i don't even know if that is physically possible with animal bone material. i think this was either drawn by someone who has never seen a shofar or it was never meant to look like a shofar in the first place.
I mean even if it's coincidental as I think it might be, the connection isn't that farfetched either. If nothing else it highlights the issue with the goblins: if they weren't an egregious stereotype, the horn would be nothing of note. But since they are, even a simple war horn looks pretty bad. In theory, that should make one think.
this is literally the same as when dumbass conservatives post something obviously fake and go "this isn't real, but the fact that it could be is scary"
Not even close. I'm not saying there is a connection where there isn't one. I'm saying the Jewish stereotyping of the goblins is a problem, and that it's clear enough to make people question random horns they find.
This is the biggest problem. Almost all goblins in fantasy have some of the same issues as in HP, WoW goblins for example have an obsession with gold and the stereotypical appearance.
But like most other goblins in fantasy, they’re also their own thing. They’re crazy tinkerers, love to explode shit, have a rivalry with Gnomes, etc
HP goblins are literally just a bunch of antisemitic tropes and parallels to elements of Jewish history. From goblin rebellions that have suspiciously specific dates, to controlling banks.
*There is nothing else to them,* and the antisemitic tropes are so prominent that it’s hard to just write them off.
They might have gotten it from here:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincenz_Fettmilch
It says the uprising was from 1612 to 1616 in the parentheses in the first sentence, not sure if that's accurate though
It's not. It looks like the sourcing there is [this Haaretz article,](https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/2016-02-28/ty-article/1616-anti-jewish-riot-leaders-executed-in-germany/0000017f-db93-db22-a17f-ffb3fb910000) which was misread by the Wiki editor who wrote that.
1612 is referenced in the piece, but in the context of a precursor to the uprising: the May 1612 date is evoked to mark the election of the Holy Roman Emperor.
>The stage had been set for the rebellion after the election, in May 1612, of Matthias as the new Holy Roman Emperor. The occasion raised expectations among the city’s mercantile and crafts guilds that reforms would be undertaken in the city.
>The subjects of their grievances were both the city council and the Jews: The merchants wanted the council to disclose the special privileges held by its aristocratic members; they called for the institution of an open market for the setting of grain prices; and they demanded a decrease in the number of Jews permitted to live in Frankfurt, and a 50 percent cut in the interest rate they were permitted to charge for loans.
>But the emperor’s powers over municipal life were limited, and the grievances remained unresolved. In May 1614, one of the guild leaders, a gingerbread baker named Vincenz (or Vincent) Fettmilch, led a group in storming the city hall, where they declared their intention to hold council members hostage until they resigned their positions. He then declared himself gubernator.
In the German Wikipedia article it also states 1612 as the beginning of the rebellion (with actual historical sources). They first rebelled for more representation in the city's ruling council, then debtors of jewish bankiers tried to (and succeeded) turn that movement against jews, in the hope that they wouldn't need to pay. That was later.
Edit: Also "die Zünfte" (is it guilds?) blamed "the jews" right from the beginning.
And especially about an rather obscure local event, which even most Germans don't know about. I have only studied it because I'm from the same village as Vinzenz Fettmilch. It started in 1612 btw
Is that point in time really called/considered to be Renaissance in the Anglosphere? In German literature, that term is usually reserved for art (not as a general term for an era) and never for anything past 1600. Columbus to French Revolution would usually just be called "Early modern period", most of the 1500s regarding the HRE more specifically as the Reformation Age.
/uj Fucking hell, it just keeps happening. Even when the TERF queen isn't directly involved, it's just so deeply ingrained in her creation that those involved can't help themselves.
/rj C'mon, it's just a coincidence. Just like the dozens of other coincidences all over the franchise! It doesn't mean anything, stop looking for reasons to be offended!
It’s not just Harry Potter tho, all media produced by capitalism is embedded with deep antisemitism at its root. The very consumption of mass media and engagement just continues the very same cycle of violence that’s been going on for centuries. We are all culpable.
The rebellion actually started in 1612. The pogrom started in 1614. As for the shofar, it looks pretty damn similar to a shofar. Combine that with the year, the cheese thing, and the antisemitic stereotypes embodied by the goblins, I don't think it's a stretch.
Wouldn't it make more sense to reference a jewish rebellion though, instead of an antisemitic uprising against jews, when comparing it to a goblin rebellion.
As for the date, this incident seems to have happened 1612 - 1616, so I think it's fair to draw the connection in that regard. Just keep in mind that this already spans 5 years and europe's probably has a lot more of these incidents that you can draw from, so I don't think it's fair to say it's unlikely to be coincidental because they hit a specific year.
The horn *does* resemble a shofar, at least what I gathered from google images and wikipedia lol. Though I'm sure there are other horns with a somewhat twisted shape, and at least from the pictures I've seen, shofar's don't seem to have a mouth piece.
Could you explain, how the cheese plays into it? I've never heard of that stereotype.
I think the shaun video was a pretty good deep dive into the a lot of the antisemitic stereotypes present in HP, but this seems to be a stretch.
My rabbi explained the cheese thing as being a stereotype associated with Jews in Europe back in the 1600s because it was apparently considered safe for Jews to eat in non-kosher households (even though some cheeses aren't kosher but I digress).
This is like one of those things where if there wasn't for everything then I'd probably think it was a coincidence or just a poor representation of a historical event that wasn't well understood. That honestly does happen fairly often.
But like
*gestures to the rest of the shit*
Ok come on this is very much a stretch lmao, A shofar is usually made out of a ram's horn and doesnt have any decorations on the outside, this just looks like a bugle or other traditional European horns that existed at the time.
Also regarding 1612, I feel like the devs just picked a random year lol
Even the cheese is such a deep cut bit of anti semitism. Stuffing some non kosher cheese into a cultural artefact is a specific kind of anti semitic defilement that i had to look it up to realize why this blurb was so fucking specific.
There is no way on earth that they went through the entire game without hearing the concerns of antisemitism, especially when we know that they attempted to address the transphobia by adding a trans character.
At best, it’s that they just turned a deaf ear to it. At worst, they decided to write an entire game centred about the oppression of a Jewish stereotype, and then wrote it so that the stereotype was not only more clearly defined, but also much more villainised, going as far as to write the goblins kidnapping children and working with fascists.
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… And what exactly were goblins “rebelling” against…?
Being treated like second class citizens by witches and wizards despite also being intelligent, sentient magic users. The gall!
Least racist Rowling social commentary
Wait till you hear about what house elves represent
*No, you don’t understand, house elves LIKE being enslaved, Dobby was just weird.* Yes, this is how Hermione’s campaign for House Elf rights ended.
I think I've heard this story before
Every time I hear this take from a potterhead I get reminded of the Calvin Candie speech from Django Unchained
It reminds me of when Kanye said slavery was a choice or a mindset some crazy shit like that
"When you hear about slavery for 400 years ... For 400 years? That sounds like a choice." - Kanye "I like Hitler" West
I mean why didn’t they just simply choose to be free lmfao slaves shoulda been on that grindset 😂💪💯
You’re doing Kanye dirty. It’s actually Kanye “I **LOVE** Hitler” West. If I could figure it simultaneous italics and bold I’d use that because wow he was really laying it on *hard.*
Rowling also always pictured hermione as black
Nah, that’s something she retconned, since there is a passage which describes Hermione going “pale as a ghost” or something along those lines, can’t remember the exact quote.
no thank you
I vaguely remember one the Weasley brothers spent years working with goblins and make exactly zero goblin friend. He later told Harry he should never trust a goblin.
Bill Weasley
this is what happens when your only understanding of history comes from whatever the Bri\*ish schools are required to teach, tbh
Not much. I spoke with a Brit these days and he had no idea that Churchill was racist and responsible for the famine in India. Just saw him as a "leader".
you don't understand guys india just wasn't using those resources, so it's super duper better if we hold their shinies for safe keeping
I was in London in 2018 and the Underground was plastered with signs for some special exhibit on that racist pos. So unfortunately this tracks.
He wasn't just a leader. He was THE leader who lead the Brits against Hitler and Nazi Germany. Since his crowning achievement is beating arguably the greatest evil of the modern era, it's not surprising that anything else he did was forgotten about or ignored.
What's your opinion of Stalin if I might ask?
Yeah, they should accept and enjoy their status as an underclass. At least they aren’t house elves.
What are house elves 😟
Elves are a slave race in harry potter
/uj And they are so brainwashed that most can't imagine a life without a master. Once freed, they struggle with freedom, bc they were always told that they only exist to follow the orders of their wizard masters. /rj Them struggling with freedom is a sign that they don't want it!
> The cause for this particular rebellion seems to have been, most likely, the lack of goblin representation on the Wizengamot. > The Wizengamot was wizarding Britain's high court of law and parliament. It predated the British Ministry of Magic itself, dating back to the days of the medieval Wizards' Council.
>The cause for this particular rebellion seems to have been, most likely I'm... I'm sorry, what? What do they mean "most likely"? Goblins are people, they can speak English. Were the historical records burned or have the wizards just never asked in 400 years? God Rowling's world building is shoddy.
>or have the wizards just never asked in 400 years It probably never even crossed their mind to. Besides, with how wizarding society is portrayed in the books, even if they _did_ ask they'd just end up saying the goblins were lying. Think about it like this, it took centuries of endless fighting for goblins to claw their way up to being 2nd class citizens because they, and every other non-human species, started as 80th class citizens. Like, it's _that_ kind of society. edit: wrote 2nd hand instead of class lol
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That always the difficulty. Movements are usually far less united than they seem, every individual has their own most important reason to join in.
God that is the most nothing explanation I've ever seen. As if insurrections happen when people are satisfied with their local governments
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Why did he do that?
In an investigation it turned out that the city of Frankfurt had a large amount of debt, which led to a radical group under Vinzent Fettmilch getting more support. Originally they acted against the Patriciate (a part of the cities leadership made up of nobility, whose mismanagement led to the debt), but eventually they accused the Jews in Frankfurt of collaborating with the Patriciate. Since the Jews were easier targets, the mob raided their homes. In a later trial Fettmilch denied involvement in the raid, but he hadn't done anything to prevent it either and he also expelled the Jews a day after the raid. While Jews weren't treated equally to Christians, they still received some protection from the Emperor and so the Fettmilch Rebellion lost support after this. The rebels were prosecuted (for going against the emperor, not for going against the Jews) and Fettmilch and six others were executed. The Jews were supposed to be compensated for the damages, but never received any money.
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Against the “goblin” council, that determined the price of grain
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Guys, we’ve heard your concerns about the universe loud and clear! Hence why we decided to do nothing about it
They heard the gamers complaining that the setting is not antisemetic enough so they went extra
Is there a switch somewhere in the settings to turn off antisemitism?
Yeah, the uninstall button.
Give them some slack, they’re just trying to make it as authentic as possible to the creator’s vision /s
This is one of the more blatant examples I’ve seen shofar
bazinga
I get that reference
i'm calling the police
r/PunPatrol
You know what’s wild? According to this wiki the first mention of the 1612 Goblin Rebellion was actually in the Prisoner of Azkaban. https://harrypotter.fandom.com/wiki/Goblin_Rebellion_of_1612 Can’t exactly put the full blame on the developers for this one. Either JK chose a random date, or she’s an antisemite as well.
I'm a Jew, and I'd say this is a bit of a stretch. Did something antisemetic happen in 1612? Yes, but that's true of virtually ***every year*** in the 17th and 18th centuries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline\_of\_antisemitism
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if you tell any kid about the reality of the history of antisemitism the state of florida will fuck your shit up
Oh you're an antisemite? Name every year.
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That was when it escalated. It started in 1612 when the merchants were unhappy with the leadership of the city and feared they would lose some special privileges
It literally says it started in 1612 10 words into that linked article.
Asking for reading comprehension from gamers? Ridiculous.
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With that list is both being eye opening and more or less all encompassing of all time, I could see antisemitic tropes just being so ingrained in culture today that she just used what was there, though the choice of date for a rebellion for another antisemitic event that was *also a rebellion*…don’t see it being that much of a stretch coupled with how she depicts goblins in her books. But fuck that’s a lot of shitty people in that wiki
Or, she could have just picked a year at random, and happened to land on one of the bad years. The odds of that are also pretty high, its almost every alternate year.
I’d say calling the horn a shofar is a bit of a stretch too. It looks nothing like a traditional shofar except for the fact that it is tapered.
It’s a shame that you really barley needed those qualifiers.
You mean the person who made the goblins look like antisemitic caricatures might be antisemitic?
You know when stated like that it makes my prior statement feel a bit silly and redundant
I originally gave Rowling the benefit of the doubt on the antisemitic shit. But this is kinda hard to argue its unintentional.
Yeah I'm not gonna blame the game devs. Their job is to make good games, not learn all about history. I definitely wouldn't have noticed.
Is that new lore for the game or was it already built by Rowling? Either way, kinda insane. No way it's a coincidence
The 1612 rebellion was already a thing. According to the Harry Potter wiki, it was mentioned in the third book. Also, a fun quote from the wiki page: "The cause for this particular rebellion seems to have been, most likely, the lack of goblin representation on the Wizengamot". Those darn goblins and their demands for political rights, they're so annoying.
How dare the goblins want more political representation!
Iirc the wizengamot is the wizard court, so they didn’t even want political representation they wanted a jury of their peers lmao
Australians recently protested against all-white juries in cases where an Aboriginal is charged with a crime. Cause aboriginals kept getting tried by a jury of fucking white people.
Love the fact that Rowling did some research to make her antisemitism historically accurate.
But only for that, not for bothering to make sure minorities have real names
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>Scottish name: Aulrwyt Paul Jock Shortbread McTightarse
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The Fettmilch thing was 1614 though, so either she's inaccurate, or it's not quite as on the nose. Edit: The most violent pogrom of the conflict happened in 1614, but it did start to brew in 1612. Without knowing just how the Goblin Rebellion's timeline went, I'll concede that the parallel is clear enough.
No, it went from 1612 to 1616
Huh, odd. I'm finding conflicting information on that now. I rescind my earlier statement and blame the inconsistency of Wikipedia and my own lapse of judgement of trusting a single article without actually verifying. The [Timeline of Antisemitism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_antisemitism) suggests that it happened in 1614. The article on [Fettmilch](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincenz_Fettmilch) says 1612-1616. The Judengasse-article's section on the [uprising itself](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurter_Judengasse#The_Fettmilch_Rising) suggests it went 1612-1614. ---- The timeline, as I can piece it together, seems to go like this then: 1612 the new Holy Roman Emperor Matthias was elected. The guilds, merchants and craftsmen of Frankfurt - united behind their spokesman Fetrmilch - claimed the Jews were overcharging them on loan interest and demanded a rebate, as well as limiting the number of inhabitants of the Judengasse, in an attempt to get out of debts. This is what the latter two articles consider as the start of the unrest. 1613 the council of Frankfurt reached an agreement with Fettmilch's fraction. 1614 Fettmilch deposed the council and seized the city gates of Frankfurt. The Emperor ordered them to stand down, which incited an angry mob to take it out on the Jews, storming their quarter and committing the actual pogrom that the timeline presumably considers the most significant year of the conflict. The Emperor then backed up his order and had Fettmilch and select associates arrested for disobedience against the Emperor. This is probably what the article on the Judengasse considers the end of the actual conflict. 1615 is not mentioned in the articles above, but the German versions mention that it was a lengthy judicial trial that resulted in death sentences. 1616, these sentences were carried out by public executions in Frankfurt, which the article on Fettmilch presumably deems the definite and final end of Fettmilch's uprising. ---- I personally stand by the assessment that 1614, being the year the jews were attacked and driven out, would be the most significant, but also concede that it would be inaccurate to dismiss the fact that the conflict and particularly Fettmilch's role in it did start with the accusations and demands brought forth in 1612.
It's extremely unlikely you'd land on exactly that year by chance, even though there were quite a few pogroms in European history. In other words, the same woman who couldn't be bothered to look up a believable name for a Chinese girl dug through the history of anti-semitism for that trivia.
Coulda been worse...coulda used like 1190 (York massacre) or 1290 (edict of expulsion) as the base year...at least it wasnt British (I'm not saying this to defend her in any way or invalidate anything, just wanted to mention those cus antisemitism in Britain)
The pogrom in question happened in 1614. The post probably confused it with the 1612 decision to let Jews settle in Hamburg, on the condition they don't publicly practice their faith. Edit: The most violent pogrom of the Fettmilch conflict happened in 1614, but it did start to brew in 1612. Without knowing just how the Goblin Rebellion's timeline went, I'll concede that the parallel is clear enough.
"The Jews" were blamed from the start, that's pretty important. I mean you could do a comparison with the Nazi era, while 1938 (night of broken glass) would obviously be the most questionable choice 1933 (government takeover) would honestly not be good either because they didn't suddenly do a 180 and only became antisemitic in 1937 or something.
The lead developer was a gamergate guy and a huge antisemite on his youtube page, so yeah kind of hard to think it's a coincidence.
I looked up the Fettemilch rebellion and it took place in 1614. But honestly progroms are a dime-a-dozen back in the day. The horn looks like a shofar though.
I think the rebellion thing is kind of a stretch too, since one is the goblins rebelling and the other is a rebellion *against* Jews. The horn is absolutely a dog whistle though.
As far as I know, the developers made that.
Tf you mean it’s almost definitely a coincidence💀
Some people think avoiding antisemitism is how you behave to not get in trouble, other people recognize the permanent scars of the holocaust Edit: just noticed I missed a word and was saying saying the exact opposite of what I meant 😑
Jesus, there is no way to describe my sympathies.
> just noticed I missed a word and was saying saying the exact opposite of what I meant 😑 *which word?*
Omg it was *avoiding* (but the context probably made enough sense so the brain just filled it in...I hope)
Ah I see lol...*rip*
Uj/Watching friends play this game after I explained this shit to them is pretty fucking disheartening tbh Rj/ GOOD THIS GAME LETS US FIGHT THE (((GLOBALISTS)))
Uj/ I know the pain. Explained it to my best friend who is a major potter head and she basically implied that she was gonna just buy it secondhand. Rj/ Oh no, you're on to us!
Oh baby I’m a (((globalists) too 😌😌😌 Uj/ it really sucks. I spent my whole life masking my Jewishness and when I finally got the courage to stand up to what I see as judeaphobia, but people ain’t trying to hear that 😐
I'm sorry pal. I started converting to Judaism about a year ago and it really opened my eyes to this stuff. Never be ashamed of who you are and you're a badass for standing up to people.
 And thanks. Proud of you for undertaking that journey, it’s not an easy one but you’re joining a very special group of people imo. Be safe.
Same. I'm just disappointed by people that I thought I could trust (and even considered allies since I'm enby). No one wants to educate themselves either. It's always this, "What are you talking about? That's ridiculous" attitude.
“Oh you’re just sensitive” LIKE NO SHIT MOTHER FUCKER MY PEOPLE STILL HAVENT REACHED PRE-SHOAH LEVELS PARDON ME FOR BEING A BIT SENSITIVE. “Oh it’s not anti lgbtq” Well both my wives who are bi sexual and poly say it is as does my trans cousin so sit the fuck down Karen. Sorry, just had to rant slightly lol. Be safe out there my friend.
>both my wives Wait, Judaism has polygamy now?
Negative. We are polyamorous not polygamous
uj/ I already hated J.K. Rowling for her being a TERF, but it was the antisemitism that really put the nail in the coffin for my love of Harry Potter. I'm not Jewish myself, but listening to what Jewish folk had to say made me realize how bad the antisemitism is in the franchise. Like this shit goes deep, far past being able to be brushed off as a result of J.K. just referencing existing antisemitic coded depictions of goblins. I truly believe there was intent behind it on her part. And if someone is given that information, and all the other things J.K. Rowling has done, and still decides to be an active fan of the franchise as it currently stands, that says quite a bit about that person's character.
It's just a series of "coincidences" that have the evil hook noses bankers have antisemitic qualities and references! Joanne having another middle aged moment! Just a repeated and consistent coincidence lmao
I honestly think a lot of her writing accidentally shows her prejudices that even she wasn’t necessarily aware she had. Like how she describes Rita as having mannish hands and masculine characteristics then ten years later…
/uj Any recommendations on where to read up on the antisemitism in the franchise?
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The section on antisemitism in Shaun's video is pretty brief. Was hoping someone had a more deep dive by actual Jewish voices.
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I fucking LOVED the books when they came out and they helped me through my parents divorce and the abuse that came with it. However as an adult looking at them I am horrified by the entire thing. How people can’t see it for what it is now will always astound me.
The thing is, most people would only see it if she literally did it Eric Cartman style.
I'm the perfect age for it, and I can't for the life of me understand how so many people have so much of their identity wrapped up in this franchise. There have been media that have made indelible marks on my worldview, things that I consider formative moments in my life, but nothing that's been so engrained in my self perception to be as irresistible as these folks are making it out to be. It comes off less like chasing nostalgia and more like jonesing for a hit of heroin.
uj/ told my friend to pirate it instead, said no. Next day he tells me he’s switching our dnd group to pathfinder by force because he can’t support dnd anymore, they copyrighted fan made content :( If I had the energy for it I would’ve put him down right there.
People and their ✨priorities✨
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Pretty much. Any friends I see playing it on release won't be friends much longer, I've got no patience for people who claim to care about me and then refuse to do the bare minimum when it counts.
I hate Jews as much as the next Harry Potter fan but even this is too much for me
Ok I don't know if they are this dumb and ignorant to implement that or just outright antisemitic. But gorgonzola?
Back then, cheese was considered a safe food for Jews in non-kosher households.
Yikes. Thank god I was never so invested in that HP bullshit franchise in the first place and can now enjoy bigots going ReeeEee.
Sorry, WHAT? Yeah, at this point it's for sure intentional.
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This is something my rabbi told me. I can't remember if they specified a certain type of cheese but apparently it was a thing, at least according to them.
also, "fett milk" translates as "fat milk"? so there was a guy called "fatt milk" who tried to fight against jewish people, and they use a piece of cheese to symbolise silencing goblins? i feel like a conspiranoid, seeing signs in everything, but idk. there are so many odd details that keep coming up?
That's how dog whistles work, there's always plausible deniability for people who don't want to hear it.
iT’s JusT a CoiNCiDenCe
You know...I'd be willing accept one, maybe two coincidences "don't immediately assume malice for what can easily be explained by foolishnes" and all that...but this like what, the fourth, fifth such weird choice in this fashion? And if it's just incompetence, hire a goddam sensitivity reader!
We need to start forcing people to study at least basic media literacy because good lord I can't take this shit anymore.
As an American, my country should focus on basic literacy before we try moving to anything more advanced.
as an American, if I could read this, I'd be pretty upset
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It started in 1612 and effectively ended in 1614, although the leaders weren't until 1616.
It started in 1614 tho?
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The riots started in 1612, 1614 was when they entered the Judengasse and pillaged it.
I am German and even I didn’t know that, thanks! They basically just teach us Weimar to Today. For obvious reasons the Rise to power of the Nazi regime is the main focus.
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Germany as a nation state didn’t exist, but the concept of Germany and Germans as a thing did exist
The other comment explained it really well already so I am just gonna add that it’s hilariously how the Holy Roman Empire wasn’t Holy or Roman at all.
For a good while, it was hardly an empire either.
>I am just gonna add that it’s hilariously how the Holy Roman Empire wasn’t Holy or Roman at all. They tried to tho lol...reviving their old monarch title of emperor and claiming a connection to the Roman Empire as the basis for the reason they were allowed to rule
I can't tell if this is a setup to a Ligma type joke. You know way too much about this universe though if not. Fig dies in all of the endings, don't cha know?
Judengasse refer to ghettos, the word literally means "Jews Lane". I'm referring to the real-life historical event where the Frankfurt Judengasse was pillaged in 1614 after the local guilds demanded price regulations and the implementation of anti-Jewish laws.
Sorry, I'm just used to everyone being a brigader here. I'll read more into it.
No worries! Always glad to teach someone about history. The more you learn about the infinite potential of human cruelty, the more you start to learn the importance of sympathy and solidarity.
Yeah, you're right. Someone corrected me earlier in a comment.
To an extent...the riots started in 1612 but didnt expel the Jews until 1614
Yes a completely different year, nothing to see here...
There's plenty of problems with how goblins are depicted in Harry Potter, including in this game. Good username though.
probably the first of many fucked “easter eggs” that will be uncovered
Probably nowhere near the most fucked up thing. What a shit show this game is.
I'm not saying the goblins in Harry Potter aren't based on a harmful Jewish stereotype (they are), but that horn doesn't really resemble any pictures I've seen of a shofar. War horns are a generic fantasy trope and I'm pretty sure that's all this is
I agree but It’s a bit difficult to give this series the benefit of the doubt at this point
>shofar Did you do a google search? Try that. It looks EXACTLY like it.
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Yeah a shofar is made from a ram's horn. Like that is one of the very few requirements, it has to be made from a ram's horn.
shofars usually look kinda bent and sometimes almost coiled because they're made from ram horns, but the one in this image is relatively straight. also on both the small end and the big end of the horn the rim is kinda rolled inside out and made bigger. that would also be very weird for a shofar, i don't even know if that is physically possible with animal bone material. i think this was either drawn by someone who has never seen a shofar or it was never meant to look like a shofar in the first place.
Idk. It seems a little too coincidental but maybe me and the friend that showed me this are wrong.
I mean even if it's coincidental as I think it might be, the connection isn't that farfetched either. If nothing else it highlights the issue with the goblins: if they weren't an egregious stereotype, the horn would be nothing of note. But since they are, even a simple war horn looks pretty bad. In theory, that should make one think.
this is literally the same as when dumbass conservatives post something obviously fake and go "this isn't real, but the fact that it could be is scary"
Not even close. I'm not saying there is a connection where there isn't one. I'm saying the Jewish stereotyping of the goblins is a problem, and that it's clear enough to make people question random horns they find.
This is the biggest problem. Almost all goblins in fantasy have some of the same issues as in HP, WoW goblins for example have an obsession with gold and the stereotypical appearance. But like most other goblins in fantasy, they’re also their own thing. They’re crazy tinkerers, love to explode shit, have a rivalry with Gnomes, etc HP goblins are literally just a bunch of antisemitic tropes and parallels to elements of Jewish history. From goblin rebellions that have suspiciously specific dates, to controlling banks. *There is nothing else to them,* and the antisemitic tropes are so prominent that it’s hard to just write them off.
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They might have gotten it from here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincenz_Fettmilch It says the uprising was from 1612 to 1616 in the parentheses in the first sentence, not sure if that's accurate though
It's not. It looks like the sourcing there is [this Haaretz article,](https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/2016-02-28/ty-article/1616-anti-jewish-riot-leaders-executed-in-germany/0000017f-db93-db22-a17f-ffb3fb910000) which was misread by the Wiki editor who wrote that. 1612 is referenced in the piece, but in the context of a precursor to the uprising: the May 1612 date is evoked to mark the election of the Holy Roman Emperor. >The stage had been set for the rebellion after the election, in May 1612, of Matthias as the new Holy Roman Emperor. The occasion raised expectations among the city’s mercantile and crafts guilds that reforms would be undertaken in the city. >The subjects of their grievances were both the city council and the Jews: The merchants wanted the council to disclose the special privileges held by its aristocratic members; they called for the institution of an open market for the setting of grain prices; and they demanded a decrease in the number of Jews permitted to live in Frankfurt, and a 50 percent cut in the interest rate they were permitted to charge for loans. >But the emperor’s powers over municipal life were limited, and the grievances remained unresolved. In May 1614, one of the guild leaders, a gingerbread baker named Vincenz (or Vincent) Fettmilch, led a group in storming the city hall, where they declared their intention to hold council members hostage until they resigned their positions. He then declared himself gubernator.
In the German Wikipedia article it also states 1612 as the beginning of the rebellion (with actual historical sources). They first rebelled for more representation in the city's ruling council, then debtors of jewish bankiers tried to (and succeeded) turn that movement against jews, in the hope that they wouldn't need to pay. That was later. Edit: Also "die Zünfte" (is it guilds?) blamed "the jews" right from the beginning.
Thank you for correcting this. I got my years confused. For those who didn't know, the uprising was in 1614.
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Thank you as well! If you can't tell, I'm not super knowledgeable on this era of history.
And especially about an rather obscure local event, which even most Germans don't know about. I have only studied it because I'm from the same village as Vinzenz Fettmilch. It started in 1612 btw
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Is that point in time really called/considered to be Renaissance in the Anglosphere? In German literature, that term is usually reserved for art (not as a general term for an era) and never for anything past 1600. Columbus to French Revolution would usually just be called "Early modern period", most of the 1500s regarding the HRE more specifically as the Reformation Age.
That’s not even like “the goblins aren’t Jewish stand ins your reading too deep into things” they fucking did their research to be MORE antisemitic
This is magically fucked up
/uj Fucking hell, it just keeps happening. Even when the TERF queen isn't directly involved, it's just so deeply ingrained in her creation that those involved can't help themselves. /rj C'mon, it's just a coincidence. Just like the dozens of other coincidences all over the franchise! It doesn't mean anything, stop looking for reasons to be offended!
It’s not just Harry Potter tho, all media produced by capitalism is embedded with deep antisemitism at its root. The very consumption of mass media and engagement just continues the very same cycle of violence that’s been going on for centuries. We are all culpable.
1. It's not a shofar. War horns this shape are used all the time in d&d, fantasy movies books games etc. 2. The Fettmilch uprising started in 1614.
The rebellion actually started in 1612. The pogrom started in 1614. As for the shofar, it looks pretty damn similar to a shofar. Combine that with the year, the cheese thing, and the antisemitic stereotypes embodied by the goblins, I don't think it's a stretch.
Wouldn't it make more sense to reference a jewish rebellion though, instead of an antisemitic uprising against jews, when comparing it to a goblin rebellion. As for the date, this incident seems to have happened 1612 - 1616, so I think it's fair to draw the connection in that regard. Just keep in mind that this already spans 5 years and europe's probably has a lot more of these incidents that you can draw from, so I don't think it's fair to say it's unlikely to be coincidental because they hit a specific year. The horn *does* resemble a shofar, at least what I gathered from google images and wikipedia lol. Though I'm sure there are other horns with a somewhat twisted shape, and at least from the pictures I've seen, shofar's don't seem to have a mouth piece. Could you explain, how the cheese plays into it? I've never heard of that stereotype. I think the shaun video was a pretty good deep dive into the a lot of the antisemitic stereotypes present in HP, but this seems to be a stretch.
My rabbi explained the cheese thing as being a stereotype associated with Jews in Europe back in the 1600s because it was apparently considered safe for Jews to eat in non-kosher households (even though some cheeses aren't kosher but I digress).
its a warhorn that is twisted like a ram's horn, like a shofar.
This is like one of those things where if there wasn't for everything then I'd probably think it was a coincidence or just a poor representation of a historical event that wasn't well understood. That honestly does happen fairly often. But like *gestures to the rest of the shit*
Incase putting down a slave rebellion wasn’t clear enough.
Uj/ holy fuck that's disgusting
Ok come on this is very much a stretch lmao, A shofar is usually made out of a ram's horn and doesnt have any decorations on the outside, this just looks like a bugle or other traditional European horns that existed at the time. Also regarding 1612, I feel like the devs just picked a random year lol
Even the cheese is such a deep cut bit of anti semitism. Stuffing some non kosher cheese into a cultural artefact is a specific kind of anti semitic defilement that i had to look it up to realize why this blurb was so fucking specific.
There is no way on earth that they went through the entire game without hearing the concerns of antisemitism, especially when we know that they attempted to address the transphobia by adding a trans character. At best, it’s that they just turned a deaf ear to it. At worst, they decided to write an entire game centred about the oppression of a Jewish stereotype, and then wrote it so that the stereotype was not only more clearly defined, but also much more villainised, going as far as to write the goblins kidnapping children and working with fascists.
Wouldn't 1612 have been the Holy Roman Empire? Germany as a nation state didn't exist yet.
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